HOMEBREW Digest #3347 Fri 09 June 2000

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		Livonia, Michigan for sponsoring the Homebrew Digest.
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  re: Mash-out/foam rest/mash pH retry ("Stephen Alexander")
  St. Louis BrewPubs ("FatCat")
  Ahhh... Genny Cream (Scott Abene)
  heat of fermentation ("Dan Diana")
  Heartburn & High Blood Pressure (Epic8383)
  Re: a doctor of /what?/ ("Richard Pass")
  Re: Reconditioned wine barrels/Micro Barrels (phil sides jr)
  Spent Grain Carbohydrate Content (mchahn)
  HSA ("Stephen Alexander")
  Poofters And Bandicoots ("Phil & Jill Yates")
  Yeast Propagation (Todd Goodman)
  Father/Grandfather favorites (John Adsit)
  Oxidation of Boiling Wort (Dave Burley)
  HBD  at  NHC? (Mark_Ohrstrom/Humphrey_Products)
  Re: Pride of Ringwood Hops (Bill.X.Wible)
  Hot Mash Percolators ("Philip J Wilcox")
  Growing Hops (Todd Goodman)
  Schaefer (Bill.X.Wible)
  Re: Jeff Renner's mild? (Jeff Renner)
  Schaefer, was: more favorites (Jeff Renner)
  a lactic acid question for Doc Pivo (Robin Griller)
  Grr...F# at &*G Spider Mites ("Spies, Jay")
  phosphoric/floor malting/Zatec ("St. Patrick's")
  re: Hop and Gator ("Mark Tumarkin")

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---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 16:14:11 -0400 From: "Stephen Alexander" <steve-alexander at worldnet.att.net> Subject: re: Mash-out/foam rest/mash pH retry Nathaniel P. Lansing (hope 'Del' is OK) wrote ... >The difference in fermentability comes >not from the denaturing of BA but from the also increased action of >AA. [...] No. Each enzyme increases activity (almost) the same as temps increase. If denaturing wasn't significant the alpha-:beta-amylase product ratio would be the same at 60C as 75C and so would the mix of saccharides. Obviously not true ... different fermentability. Denaturing is the factor. I promise I will shortly make a more extensive post re: enzyme kinetics. == >> No source calls 71C mashout.<< > Two professional brewers (1 Weihenstephen graduate) and a malster > I spoke to call it mash out. Ask 'em to re-read pp222 of Kunze where 74C is "saccharification rest", and 78C is "mash off" (mashout). 71C isn't mashout and 75C is marginal, below text values. == >If people aren't mashing out then they are indeed >not utilizing the proteins available to produce a lasting head and clinging >lace. Equally, If people aren't peptidase resting then they are not utilizing all the amino acids available for yeast growth - not needed for high beer quality either. This protein produced during the mash is not identical with, only correlated to beer foam. You must understand ALL, not just 1 mechanism for this, and the other foam correlates. Assuming that a certain protein in mash is equivalent to beer foam is Del's extrapolation that deserves challenge. == >There is nothing abnormal with the mash in the experiment cited. I *think* I almost agree now, but Del's terse description was misleading. He failed to correct the misunderstanding in my response - his own fault. >Method- [...] the mash held at 60 C for > 20 minutes, then raised to 68 C for 90 minutes, 71 C for 90 >minutes, 73 [...] Meant several mashes were performed, each was held 20' at 60C then each at one higher temp for 90'. My old interp was a single mash at 60C then 68C then 71C ... . The statements of yield in mg/L ... Was it *increase* or *total* yield ? Was it final yield or at 30' ? I now *think* he meant the total conc of the critical protein fraction (CPF) at 30' point in the rest. If now correct (Del?) I agree the mash isn't wildly odd.. == Del (?) reports CPF at 30' into high temp rest = 50' after mash-in. Not unreasonable, tho' longer time periods and different schedules would be relevant *IF* the CPFs form during sparge or heating to boil. The paper measures CPF and foam of sweet unboiled wort, not beer, right ?. My objections to the brewing comparison: Isohumulones and hop phenolics are important to beer foam stability but probably absent. A boil will remove some CPFs perhaps selectively, but there was probably no boil. The Congress method uses a sub-1mm plate grind. Congress uses a ~2qt/lb at mash-in + ~1qt/lb for sacchar rest. Del omits mention of additional water, but Congress mash is very thin ... impacts enzyme activity. Does 20 at 60C+30' at 75C model a mash + mashout accurately ? Do CPFs originate in the mash grist or from soluble proteins ? Does their release continue thru the sparge and boil heating ? Are they are released due to thermal or enzyme factors ? If enzyme, then what are denaturing & activity temp characteristics ? How much CPFs are needed for appropriate head (You want milds looking like wheats?) ? What determines survival of CPFs thru the boil and fermentation and into beer. What limits CPFs during mash ? There's no clear case that mashout is *necessary* for good head/foam. Nathaniel chose to focus on pH. I agree that 120ppm of calcium sulfate (but is that the experiment's method ?) should push the wort towards brewing pH. But pH=5.5 and 2qt/lb isn't typical and 3qt/lb is just weird. The abstract of the paper says CPF are dependent on barley variety, growing conditions, malting and the mashing technique. It'd be interesting to see the variations due to other factors. It says (ELISA) protein assay is sufficient to measure CFP, notes sources of variation and suggests controlli ng for the variations when characterizing malt. It's a study of malt evaluation and NOT of practical mashing method consequences, tho' it has implications. I doubt it made conclusions about the amounts in beer, or that they even boiled and hopped their wort, much less fermented it. == >I see, your basement brewery is a more significant source of brewing >technology than the Beer Research Institute, Suntory Ltd. Since I *NEVER* used my home experiment to contradict any conclusion in the Suntory paper, the statement above is a blatant misrepresentation. I hope that Del hasn't similarly misrepresented the Suntory paper's contents. >It sure sounds like you try to refute the reseach labs finding at every >turn!! Please give a quote or retract this Del. I never challenged the conclusion of the Suntory study. I rejected Del's extrapolations of the result. == >After 1/2 hour at 68 C or 71 or 75 [...] 85/145=58% >increase of foam + glyco-proteins; significant I would say. Not significant to beer foam unless you also know levels after hops, boil, fermentation, fining and filtering, and the impact of other foam related factors. == To encapsulate my position - 1/ I've repeatedly had good foam/head w/o mashout. so mashout is not *necessary* for normal foam/head under such conditions. I reject Del's comment when he writes of my no-mashouts that foam "may be 'adequate' ". There is no "may be" about it and the pejoritive 'adequate' isn't accurate. 2/ I did NOT say that additional foam positive proteins weren't formed during high temp rests or in any way deny the Suntory conclusions as I know them. 3/ I am open to the *speculation* that Del proposes, that a higher temp rest can increase BEER foam under some conditions as a result of increased mash CPF. It's even likely. This doesn't change my position from 1/ above, nor contradict my posts. 4/ I am NOT an advocate of no-mashout brewing in general, despite the mischaracterization. Most of all I hope that Del will read and report on what he reads, more frequently. I like to do this and I think it's important. I've certainly learned some additional thing from the hurley-burley discussion here. I also like to post speculation based on reading, but I *hope* I do a good job of distinguishing. Obviously certain individuals (not Del) can't distinguish no matter how one writes. I also hope that Del and I haven't fabricated a disagreement where none exists. (High temp rests increase mash CPFs) vs (mashout not necessary for normal head/foam) is NOT contradictory, tho' paradoxical. I fear it may be the case. If nothing else it underlines the importance of differentiating report and speculation when reading and writing. 'nuff said, needs to go offline or die. == As to the pH in Dels home experiment. It was, and still is the distilled water+pils-grist reading (pH 4.78) that is the elephant at the table. Another HBD reader has offered to repeat and perhaps extend this test. -S Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2000 21:44:25 0100 From: "FatCat" <fatcat at homebrew.com> Subject: St. Louis BrewPubs In St. Louis. No car. Staying near Arch. Any suggestions? E-mail fine Thanks. Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 18:34:50 -0700 (PDT) From: Scott Abene <skotrat at yahoo.com> Subject: Ahhh... Genny Cream What a fantastic beer... Please accept my take on this excellent brew. Genesee was recently sold. They were the 5th largest brewery in the country at the time... Let's hope that the new owners keep this beer the way it should be. Gennesee My Butt! (All Grain) 15.5 US Gallons Brewing Method: All Grain Yeast: WYEAST 2035 Yeast Starter: 1/2 gallon Batch Size: 15.5 US Gallons Original Gravity: 1.049 Final Gravity: 1.010 Alcohol Content: 4.5-5.0 % Total Grains: 30 Color: 4.4 Extract Efficiency: 75 % Hop IBU's: 22.9 Boiling Time: 70 minutes Primary Fermentation: 7 days at 62f Secondary Fermentation: 7 days at 58f Additional Fermentation: lagered in corny keg Grain Bill: Grain % Amount Name Origin Gravity Color - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- 56.7 17.00 lbs. Lager Malt(6-row) Canada 1.031 1 20.0 6.00 lbs. Flaked Corn (Maize) America 1.040 1 10.0 3.00 lbs. Vienna Malt America 1.035 4 6.7 2.00 lbs. Munich Malt(light) America 1.033 10 6.7 2.00 lbs. Crystal 10L America 1.035 10 Hop Bill: Amount Name Form Alpha IBU Boil Time - ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- 4.00 oz. Liberty Whole 3.40 19.6 60 min. 4.00 oz. Liberty Whole 3.40 3.3 5 min. Mash Schedule: Mash Type: Single Step Saccharification Rest Temp : 152 Time: 90 Mash-out Rest Temp : 166 Time: 10 Sparge Temp : 170 Time: 70 Brewers Notes: Side by side test was a dead ringer... Very nice brew ===== ThE-HoMe-BrEw-RaT Scott Abene <skotrat at mediaone.net> http://www.skotrat.com (the Homebrew "Beer Slut" page) "The More I know about beer politics, The more I wish I made 120k" __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Photos -- now, 100 FREE prints! http://photos.yahoo.com Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 21:39:47 -0700 From: "Dan Diana" <dands at ftconnect.com> Subject: heat of fermentation Can anyone out there resolve a discrepancy between two references? I am trying to find a reasonable estimate of the heat generated during fermentation. DeClerck's A Textbook of Brewing (Vol1, p. 420) provides a value of 178 calories/kg sugar. In contrast, MBAA's Practical Brewer (p. 165) provides an esitmate of 160 Kcal/KG sugar. The numerical values are reasonably close but I am really unclear on which units to believe. A three order of magnitude difference leads me to believe one is a typo, but which one? I have a feeling from previous reading that DeClerck's units sometimes are not correct. Has anyone else observed the same thing? Thanks, Dan Diana Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2000 00:55:26 EDT From: Epic8383 at aol.com Subject: Heartburn & High Blood Pressure A friend of mine (about 60 yrs. old) has been told by his physician that he shouldn't drink beer because it will aggravate his high blood pressure problem. The doctor demonstrated the effect as he took my friend's blood pressure before and after drinking a 7 oz. Bud. The doctor told him that hard liquor won't hurt (in moderation), but beer is a no-no. I seem to get heartburn after drinking highly hopped beers. I have no other such reaction to any other foods, regardless of how spicy they may be. Anybody have any insight into these problems? Gus Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2000 15:03:55 +1000 From: "Richard Pass" <richard.pass at anu.edu.au> Subject: Re: a doctor of /what?/ "Alan Meeker" wrote >Steve wrote to doc Pivo: >>" I have noticed that in your field physicians >>are not required to personally contract every disease they treat," >Wait a minute, are you telling me that old doc Pivo is a /medical/ doc?? >Shudder. >-Alan Meeker >Baltimore, MD (that's Maryland, not M.D.) He sure is Alan, and last time he was out this way it was all I could do to prevent him demonstrating his liver transplant technique after dinner. He was most persuasive (he'd convinced me that my liver was almost certainly very tired) and it was only after I pointed out that there was a reasonable chance that I and Ziggy (my German Shepherd) may be of different tissue types and that, anyway, it was getting late, that he agreed to put it off for another day. Pass-the-bottle Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2000 02:17:33 -0400 From: phil sides jr <psides at technologist.com> Subject: Re: Reconditioned wine barrels/Micro Barrels "NATHAN T Moore" <NTMOORE at SMTPGATE.DPHE.STATE.CO.US> asks: >smaller barrels (10 gallons and less) out of them. At a few >locations on the web I have seen reference to a company called >Micro Barrels in California, but I cant seem to get an answer when >I try to call them (I have been trying for several weeks now). >Does anyone know about this company and if they are still doing >business (and if they are, how to contact them)? Or, does >anyone know of any other coopers doing this? There is a 2.5 Nathan, You do know you can buy new ones in 5 and 7.5 gallon sizes, right? Also, I found this below. Not sure how current the info is but I found it at : http://www.stanford.edu/~jeremybb/lambic/materials.html Napa Fermentations (707) 255-6372 Both European and American oak Demptos Napa Cooperage (707) 257-2628 European oak only Independent Stave Co. (417) 588-4151 American Oak only Seguin Moreau Cooperage (707) 252-3408 European oak only Tonnellerie Vicard (707) 257-3582 Tonnellerie Radoux (415) 457-3955 Tonnellerie Francaise (707) 942-9301 Tonnellerie Mercier (804) 493-9186 Les Tonnelleries de Bourgogne (707) 257-3582 Stefanich (415) 665-1885 Stavin (415) 331-7849 Pradel Barrels (707) 944-8720 Mel Knox Barrel (415) 751-6806 Custom Cooperage (707) 996-8781 Cork Associates (707) 224-6000 Boswell Co. (415) 457-3955 Blue Grass Cooperage (415) 331-5734 Barrel Builders (707) 942-4291 Barrel Specialties (707) 553-9707 Make 30 gallon barrels from used 50 gallon ones. Micro Barrels/Jason Buttler (707) 942-1521 Make custom-size small barrels from used large ones. Phil Sides, Jr. Concord, NH - -- F u cn rd ths u cnt spl wrth a dm! Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 08 Jun 2000 04:43:57 -0400 From: mchahn at earthlink.net Subject: Spent Grain Carbohydrate Content Does anybody know the carb content of spent grain, or how one would calculate this? Private emails ok. TIA. Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2000 05:08:42 -0400 From: "Stephen Alexander" <steve-alexander at worldnet.att.net> Subject: HSA Aaron Sepanski cautions me ... >Before I made any bets, I'd try it myself. Wouldn't be a fair bet w/o the uncertainty tho'. see my comments below to Alan Meeker re the HSA vs bottle oxygen issue. They result in different problems. >There is a famous article published about three and a half years >ago if I am correct by a prof. from the Siebel Institute. I'd like to see it if you have any more detail. >This was surprising to me at first, but then I learned of a Brewery in >England that deliberately aerates hot wort. Right, I've seen pictures of this. Reportedly the traditional breweries (several) that practice this make great beer while it's young, but it ages to an old boot flavor in short order and doesn't 'travel' well at all. === Alan Meeker says ... >Wait a minute, are you telling me that old doc Pivo is a /medical/ doc?? >Shudder. I hope so, he reported digging infected tissue out of a knee a bit ago. >something I haven't seen mentioned yet, namely the increased rate of >reaction between atmospheric oxygen and wort as the temperature increases. >Several people have pointed out (correctly) that during the boil the >solubility of oxygen is, for all practical purposes, zero. In Bamforth [JIB 105, #4, pp237-242,1999], "Enzymic and non-enzymic oxidation in the Brewhouse: A theoretical Consideration", Bamforth reports oxygen solubility of water in equilibrium w/ air to be 3.8ppm at 60C, and 2.8ppm at 75C. About 20% lower yet in 10P wort. It''s low, but not zero-ish. He estimates that various small scale experiments performed see between 50 to 200 ppm of oxygen used in various oxidation processes in entire brewing process and cites a study that measuresd 20ppm in the mash and about twice that in the boil. The reactions should, by his analysis suck all the O2 fromthe mash in no time -so it's out of equilibrium ... you get the picture. The focus of the paper is that the mash oxidation rate is limited by the O2 concentration. Otherwise the entire fatty acid load would be oxidized in minutes and other reactions would run wild too. The mash and boil situations have many possible paths for the O2 to proceed - so they compete for the available O2. The good news is that the lipo-oxygenase path isn't particularly attractive. The bad news is that other oxidized forms later produce superoxide/perhydroxyl ions in the beer. At beer pH , the perhydroxyl is more prevalent and can react to oxidize linoleic quickly. In the mash perhydroxyls are more likely to oxidation than with lipid oxidation. It's only theory, but it matches recent evidence that staling flavors (trans-nonenals) do NOT contain labeled oxygen molecules from the bottling but the oxygen is from upstream in the mash or boil. Bamforth doesn't make a pronouncement on the issue but he seems to be leaning toward non-enzymic causes for staling flavors. Other source disagree. I should send you a copy Alan. ======== Paul Schick kindly offers to brew the challenge beer under some conditions ... >So, in short, I'm volunteering to be the "competent lager >brewer" [...] > _IF_ he and Dr. Pivo can agree to rule out any stakes, both >personal and monetary. I understand and appreciate your point, but the idea of a bet wasn't mine. Dr.Pivo/Jeff Irvine offered a bet as a direct and insulting attack on my character (here's how to cure naysayers who lack conviction on their statements). As usual he has misread me. My offer to proceed to a full description of the detailed test stands. The ball's in the other court. As to the real issue (HSA) I would like to see the experiment carried out regardless, *BUT* most folks forget is that there is good deal of time and effort and expense involved. >brew 20 gallons of a nice lager [...] always a fun >thing. Not all fun. Gottta cold store it for perhaps a year using 20gal-years of fridge capacity. At 20gal there will be none to share or sample except at tastings. Then there is the recordkeeping and the guy who pours the triangle samples can't taste. Nice for the tasters, not so nice for the fridge owner and recordkeeper/pourer. >I might also suggest that the beers be bottle-conditioned, >in an effort to minimize cold side aeration effects. Since I've only tasted the HSA in kegged beers I'd have to say no. Removing bottle O2 is good for this test, but the yeast also act as a reducing agent against other oxidation processes - including possibly the lipid oxidation (w/o free O2) that I expect to see in the HSA beer (see above). Also there is the potential problem of yeast autolysis over an extended period. It would be an interesting experiment, but .. A cheap proxy test would be to bottle some to taste after the kegged version declines. I saw a report *somewhere* that the O2 levels in bottle conditioned beer are not much lower. Yeast don't consume all the oxygen, but they do in my experience improve the aging characteristics greatly. As much as I hate bottling, I do prefer bottle conditioned beers. thanks Paul, I'll be on biz travel rest of the week, -S Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2000 22:07:13 +1000 From: "Phil & Jill Yates" <yates at acenet.com.au> Subject: Poofters And Bandicoots It doesn't pay to be absent from home for a few days because three days on the HBD is a long time and no end of misinformation, aggression, and the chance to pick on someone can all happen in this short space of time. My head is spinning. Alan Meeker has just had a light go off in his head and he asks "Is Doc Pivo actually a Doctor"? For God's sake Alan, have you not been paying attention? Obviously not!! As for rehashing thoughts on "Is HSA possible in the boil"? I'm sure we have been through this before. My unscientific response was a little unkind to Dave Burley. But on the subject of HSA, Steve Alexander throws down the gauntlet and challenges Doc Pivo on the matter financially. Come on Steve, this is getting a little bit silly. In any case, as I recall it, I'm sure Doc Pivo was labouring the point that HSA was not an issue with homebrewing where our beers are not subject to commercial rigours such as transport and extended shelf life. I got the impression that your proposal was to keep judging the beer month after month in an effort to finally detect effects of oxidisation. I don't think this is a reasonable challenge. If you are not drinking your homebrew at it's peak, why bother homebrewing? In any case, should this showdown occur, it is my opinion that the obvious "neutral" territory on which to hold it would be "Burradoo Estate". Despite what Paul Shick might think of himself, there is no doubt in my mind (and there had better not be in anyone else's!!) that I am the king of lagers, rice lagers to be precise! And unlike Mr Shick, I will be raising the financial stakes so that each entrant will be paying $500 for the privilege of competing! The winner gets a night out on the town with the ladies of the Billiard table. The loser gets to share a terrifying night on the "gold tops" with me. Let's see how you handle the vision of Marilyn crawling out of the bog naked!! On a final note of insult, Dave Edwards of South Australia talks on the game of Aussie Rules - played by poofters and bandicoots. What relevance has this to real Aussie men and dedicated beer drinkers? I hope Dave, you don't intend bringing the subject up with the crowd at the Burradoo Hilton, in short young man, you will be slaughtered! Now as for a crowd, well we will be needing one, and all of you are invited. You wouldn't want to miss a night in the snake pit like this!! Cheers Phil PS I recently met a bloke who told me for 23 years he and his wife were perfectly happy. Then, unfortunately, they met!! I can relate to this. Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2000 08:13:47 -0400 (EDT) From: Todd Goodman <tgoodman at sonusnet.com> Subject: Yeast Propagation I've read the yeast washing FAQ (relating a presentation by Dave Logsdon) and have been really hesitant to wait for separation and then save the suspended portion. Is this really the best yeast to be saving? Is there enough yeast still in suspension after 30 minutes of chilling? Is separation at this first step supposed to happen at room temp and much quicker than 30 minutes? (I know the second step mentions chilling and a 30-60 minute time period.) I also use the yeast from secondary since it's much cleaner to start with. I'm concerened that I may be selecting for low floccing yeast though. Do people think this is a concern? I brew about twice a month and generally don't know much in advance if I'm going to be able to brew. If I wanted to use three or four primary yeast strains, would there be any big drawbacks (obviously infection would be a concern) to keeping three or four starters going continuously? I'd just keep feeding them every few days (using pressure canned wort). Finally, when checking a starter for infection I try to smell and taste it. However, I have a hard time judging since it's so yeasty and has fermented at a higher temp than the usual beer fermentation. Is it pretty obvious when infected? What taste or smell do people look for? I've tasted autolyzed yeast before but never tasted anything remotely like that in my starters. Thanks, Todd Goodman Brewing in Westford, MA Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 08 Jun 2000 06:23:22 -0600 From: John Adsit <jadsit at jeffco.k12.co.us> Subject: Father/Grandfather favorites A number of people have written in to talk about trying to revive a father or grandfather's favorite beer. As the father of a homebrewer and on not far from being old enough at least to be the grandfather of one, let me introduce a caution. When I first started drinking beer in my old haunts in upstate New York, I had my favorites, too. It was actually pretty easy to have a TRUE favorite, by which I mean you could have had a meaningful experience with every brand possible. Whether it was one of the big national brands or the more local beers, you really only had a handful of choices, and they were all variations of the same bland product. If you wanted to pay extra and go upscale, you went to Michelob. When I went to college in northern New York, we occasionally slipped across the border to have a Molsons or Labatts, neither of which was imported into the U.S. When I moved to Colorado, I ran into Coors for the first time. (It was only sold in about ten states or so at the time.) I encountered my first Mexican beer then, too, Dos Equis. Today, I can go into a liquor store and walk out with at least a dozen beers I have never tried before, and I can be certain that every one of them will be better than the swill I was forced to consume in my youth. Yes, I had a favorite in those days. If my son ever decides to honor me and clone it, I will ask, "What the Hell were you thinking?" - -- John Adsit Boulder, Colorado jadsit at jeffco.k12.co.us Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2000 08:38:30 -0400 From: Dave Burley <Dave_Burley at compuserve.com> Subject: Oxidation of Boiling Wort Brewsters: Alan Meeker wonders if there is a reaction of oxygen with wort at the boil at the wort/air interface. I can definitely say yes, although there are many here who protest otherwise without even trying the experiment. Check out the many discusssions over time in the HBD archives including this same one of just a few weeks ago. If you have two kettles, try the experiment in which you boil with the lid about 2/3 or more on and the other comletely off. Compare wort colors and beer tastes and you will be converted to boiling ( after the initial boilup) with the kettle partially covered as the steam jet keeps air from the surface. For those cooks out there, compare the results of spaghetti sauce cooked with the lid on and the lid off if you want to see an example of oxidation at the boil, even though the dissolved oxygen content is low. Keep on Brewin' Dave Burley Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2000 08:41:45 -0400 From: Mark_Ohrstrom/Humphrey_Products%HUMPHREY_PRODUCTS at humphreypc.com Subject: HBD at NHC? Time is fast approaching for the MIY2K edition of the NHC. How 'bout a rendezvous of HBD stalwarts, flame mongers, lurkers, miscreants, rabble rousers and the like in Livonia? With just a little organization, we should be able to "announce our presence with authority." Mark in Kalamazoo Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2000 08:56:21 -0400 From: Bill.X.Wible at QuestDiagnostics.com Subject: Re: Pride of Ringwood Hops "Dave Edwards" <eddiedb at senet.com.au> writes: >G'day, >Bill Wible wrote this about his hop additions for a Fosters clone: > .5 oz Pride of Ringwood 6.8% 60 min > .5 oz Pride of RIngwood 6.8% 30 min > >My question is where the hell does he buy his hops? You don't get >PoR here in SA at less than 9% AAU, and most are about 10 or 11%. >Maybe it's just something to do with the way that most of the hops in >Oz and NZ have much higher acid than their northern relatives. Funny you should mention the seemingly low alpha on those PoR, Dave. When I was sitting here at work figuring up that recipe, I remember writing in PoR as around 13%, then having to revise the amounts at home due to the lower alpha of the hops I actually had on hand at home. I do recall that PoR is a relatively high alpha hop, so I was quite surprised to find mine were marked 6.8%. I bought the hops at a homebrew store here in Philadelphia. There is nothing wrong with them. They were in the standard nitro-flushed, gray-green bags just like we get all of other hops in, and they were marked Pride of Ringwood, 6.8% AA. I know that all hops do vary in alpha acid from year to year and even field to field in the same year, so this could be perfectly normal. Bill Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2000 09:02:32 -0400 From: "Philip J Wilcox" <pjwilcox at cmsenergy.com> Subject: Hot Mash Percolators Aaron Sepanski writes about British Hot Mash percolators. This is nothing compared to what they do to Budwiser. During the MCAB II we got a tour of the Pilot brewery (Thanks again bob boland) at AB. 20 feet wide 60 feet long, NINE STORIES TALL!!! Anyway. AB runs their hot liqior out of the wirlpool into an airation chamber. the wort fills a grant at the top of the chamber and spills over a series of egg shaped tubes that have a strategically placed flatspot in them. this lets the wort fall down the inside of the tube in a spiral sheet thus creating maximum surface area. The tubes are about 18 ft long and have sterile hot air blowing up through them. We grilled the good Dr. over and over on HSA worries and he insisted it did no damage to the beer. (Chuckle) According to him the hot air volitized alot of the bad phenols and their precursors out of the wort. (We thought is stripped out any flavor whatsoever). He went on to insist that oxidation later on is what you need to worry about. Since seeing and hearing that little demo I have hit PG down every time I see HSA in Dr. Pivo's subject line. Phil WIlcox Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2000 09:04:15 -0400 (EDT) From: Todd Goodman <tgoodman at sonusnet.com> Subject: Growing Hops I'm curious how other hop growers in the area (Westford, MA) are doing with their plants. This is my first year growing (six varieties) and I think I got them started late (late May). I have one vine (nugget) that is about three feet tall and climbing well. One hill has nothing coming up (Chinook). The Saaz have two sprouts but haven't grown more than an inch tall in the weeks they've been above ground. The Cascades have just come up. The Hallertau are about a foot tall and just starting to train onto the line. The Perle hill had two sprouts about four inches tall which then (it was after a recent Nor'easter so I'm not sure if something blew over and took them out, there's garden fencing around each hill so I don't think it was animal related). I know I won't get much the first year, but they're growing slower than expected. The Nugget also has some insect damage (leaves cut through) on the lower leaves. Is this normal or should I be checking into it (the higher leaves don't show this damage and I don't see any insects now)? What do people tend to use to train their hops? I used two 10 foot sections of galvanized pipe connected with a coupler with an eye-bolt through an end cap on one end and just an foot section of the same pipe sunk in the ground with an end cap on it. Then a piece of pipe just large enough for the end caps to fit within slides over both (to hold them up). There's a bolt in the pipe in the ground to hold the sleeve up high enough. Nylon rope trails down to an oak stake in the hill (a tent setup I guess). I have some pics if anyone is interested. Thanks, Todd Goodman Brewing in Westford, MA Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2000 09:13:56 -0400 From: Bill.X.Wible at QuestDiagnostics.com Subject: Schaefer >Aaron Perry <vspbcb at earthlink.net> writes: > >I was interested in the strong response to the Foster's recipe. >I can't help but want to stir up such a response here in the U.S. >I'm working on a Schaefer recipe. Seeing as Memorial Day just passed, I'd been >thinking about my Grandfater. and his Favorite (translated - only) brand of >beer. I >thought it would be fun, and challenging to brew up a commemerative batch. Any >insight? Brewery specifics? > Aaron, Schaefer is another beer I experimented with last year. There is an article published in Brewing Techniques called 'The Bushwick Pilseners - A look at Hoppier Days" that has alot of information about old Schaefer recipes. The article is about Classic American Pilseners that were produced in the Bushwick section of New York. Schaefer was one of those. The article can be found online now by going to realbeer.com and searching their library. I'mprettysure the author is Ben Jankowski (sp?) I brewed mine as a pre-prohibition lager, using mostly 6 row malt and about a pound and a half of corn for 5 gallons. I brought it in at around 1.065. I used Cluster hops for bittering and some Styrian Goldings for flavor. I used Wyeast 2207 Pilsener yeast. If I were to try this again, I might use either the 2035 American Lager or the 2272 North American. My problem with the beer was that it didn't ferment down enough, was too sweet. This could also have been perceived sweetness from all the corn, maybe. I would also mention that BYO did a big article on reproducing old beers that were 'dad's favorites' last June. It gave recipes for old (pre-Miller) Lowenbrau, Ballantine XXX, and some others. I wrote and asked for the old Lowenbrau several months before that, because my dad was bugging me to find out about it and try to make it for him ever since he found out I started brewing. I actually enjoyed making it for him, and he loved it. Our homebrew shop owner made the Ballantine clone and put it on tap at the store. It was also great. This was a good article if you can scare up a copy of the magazine. Good luck. Glad to see I'm not the only one with an interest in brewing lagers. Bill Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2000 09:49:52 -0400 From: Jeff Renner <nerenner at umich.edu> Subject: Re: Jeff Renner's mild? >Bill.X.Wible at QuestDiagnostics.com wrote: >I knew there was something I liked about that Jeff Renner guy. >Pre-prohibition lager, now mild ale. Jeff, any chance for a repost >of that mild recipe? (Or send it to my email?) Mild is one my >favorite styles to brew. I'm always looking for new mild recipes. Rather than just point you to the archives at http://hubris.engin.umich.edu/cgi-bin/dothread, since traffic it not too heavy, and since I have an update on it, I'll repost it below. The update. After I drank about a third of the 1/4 bbl Sankey, I racked the rest into a corney and dry hopped it with a handful of my best EKG. Now, two weeks later, it has a very nice dry hopped character. But several other things have happened. First, the roastiness seems to have aged out. I've noted this before. Of course, a proper mild should have been long since consumed. Second, it seems to have dried out and become slightly more bitter on balance, probably as a result of a bit further fermentation and also the dry hops. Since it was slightly less dark than some milds, it now is more or less a darkish bitter. Not all that bitter, but drier than it was. Very nice, just different. So I guess you should drink it up quickly if you want a malty mild. If you want it darker but not more roasty, try grinding an ounce of chocolate very fine (like in a blender) and add it to the boil for the last five minutes. I picked up this tip from a Briess newsletter at http://www.briess.com. This site is full of good info. Check out the newletter archives. -=-=-=- Date: Fri, 5 May 2000 11:37:15 -0400 From: Jeff Renner <nerenner at umich.edu> Subject: May is Mild Month Brewers May is Mild Month - so says CAMRA, the Campaign for Real Ale. Mild is an easy drinking ale, most often dark, almost always low in gravity, low in bitterness, and is a natural here in the US before the weather gets so warm you want a lager. Here is my most recent iteration: Armstrong's Dark Mild 7.75 US gallons in the keg (8+ gallons in the primary fermenter) OG 1.037, FG 1.010 8.5 lbs. Briess Ashburne malt* 1 lb. Durst 90L crystal 3 oz. Scotmalt chocolate 12 oz. Briess flaked maize 1.2 oz. very fresh whole EKG at 6.2% alpha - 60 minutes 0.6 oz. ditto - 15 minutes Huge repitch of Wyeast 1098 (Whitbread) (not my first choice but it was what was available) Untreated fairly high carbonate well water (alkalinity balanced by dark malts) Started mash at 153F, dropped to 149 at 60 minutes, raised to 160F for 20 minutes, then mashed out at 170F. Sparged with boiled and decanted well water (for low alkalinity). Collected ~7.5 gallons wort, topped with ~ 2 gallons sparge water before boil. Fermented upper 60's to 70F, "dropped" the fermenting beer at 18 hours into another fermenter with a fair amount of splashing to oxygenate the yeast, then moved to 60F after 2-1/2 days as fermentation slowed. Ready to keg at five days. Light bodied, chocolatey, fruity, slightly roasty, mildly bitter. Quite nice, if I do say so myself. Can't wait for my hand pump to arrive. * I think Ashburne is a real key in creating the flavor I was after. It is a slightly darker version of pale ale. See http://www.briess.com for details. For an even lighter bodied mild, substitute 12 oz. of sugar for one pound of malt. If anyone brews this, report back on HBD. -=-=-=-=- Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, c/o nerenner at umich.edu "One never knows, do one?" Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943. Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2000 10:30:43 -0400 From: Jeff Renner <nerenner at umich.edu> Subject: Schaefer, was: more favorites Aaron Perry <vspbcb at earthlink.net> wrote: >I'm working on a Schaefer recipe. Seeing as Memorial Day just passed, I'd been >thinking about my Grandfater. and his Favorite (translated - only) brand of >beer. I >thought it would be fun, and challenging to brew up a commemerative batch. Any >insight? Brewery specifics? Of course, that would be a CAP. And as for specifics, you're in luck. See Ben Jankowski"s excellent Brewing Techniques (January/February 1994) article "The Bushwick Pilsners: A Look at Hoppier Days." A relevent extract: "The most civic minded of the Bushwick Brewers was F&M Schaefer. In addition to being the beer of the Brooklyn Dodgers, Schaefer sponsored exhibits at both New York World's Fairs and hosted dancing tents at Jones Beach Theater. At the 2.5 million-bbl plant in Brooklyn it produced its pilsner, bock, and Beverwyck's Irish Cream Ale. Schaefer was also the last brewery to close in Brooklyn in 1976." Jankowski says that Schaefer was 1.049 OG, no FG given, hopped with Cluster and Styrian Goldings to 24.2 IBU. He gives a recipe that is very similar to my first "Your Father's Mustache," but I don't think he uses enough corn. I think you need to go with 25% or so. Good luck. Jeff -=-=-=-=- Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, c/o nerenner at umich.edu "One never knows, do one?" Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943. Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2000 09:57:38 -0400 From: Robin Griller <rgriller at chass.utoronto.ca> Subject: a lactic acid question for Doc Pivo As a follow up to your post on lactic acid in the mash, I was wondering what you think of Lactic Acid for acidifying the sparge water. I know the comments were mostly about pH in the mash, but you also made a comment about a lactic acid flavour. So, do you acidify your sparge water and, if so, do you use lactic acid? thanks, Robin Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2000 12:15:09 -0400 From: "Spies, Jay" <Spies at dhcd.state.md.us> Subject: Grr...F# at &*G Spider Mites All - Grrrrrr...after reading some others' posts about brown and crispy hop leaves (yep, I got 'em too) and infestations of spider mites, I checked the underside of my hop leaves... <<Listen for resounding WHAP of massive forehead slap>> The little buggers were all over the place. I hadn't thought to even look, seeing as how all of my hops are on the roof of my house in individual garbage cans in the heart of Baltimore City... So, I blasted the crap out of all the bines with water from my hose nozzle set on high, and that did the trick, no more mites. However, I don't really want to invest in Lacewings to eat the stragglers, because I'm in the middle of the city and there's not a lot of other vegetation for them to fripp around on, and I'm afraid they'll die of hunger, or something. Others have mentioned insecticidal soaps and such to keep the mites off. Can anyone recommend a good residual treatment to keep these little pests away from my beloved bines? I'll use insecticides, I really don't care. Also, the bines have definitely halted their growth because of the damage. Will they spring back up now that the mites are gone, or is this it? (2nd year Cascade bines, about 12 feet tall) They have already started to produce some small cones... TIA, Jay Spies Baltimore Insect Obliteration Foundation Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2000 11:26:03 -0500 From: "St. Patrick's" <stpats at bga.com> Subject: phosphoric/floor malting/Zatec The issue of floor maltings vs pneumatic maltings is very interesting. I do not have a strong opinion either way as to which is superior. I will say that one should never underestimate the preeminence of the skill of the maltster, regardless of the system. It's interesting that Beeston claims floor malt is more homogenous than pneumatic---this is generally opposite of what one hears. It is almostly certainly true that pneumatic systems produce more uniform malt than the old floor maltings turn malt by hand, etc. Modern floor maltings have modern heating/cooling systems, turn malt with machines, have heating/cooling in floors, etc. Under those conditions, it may well be possible to produce more uniform malt. I visited 3 different types of pneumatic maltings as well as floor maltings in the Czech Republic. The floor malting at the Cerna Hora brewery is very old and traditional, they still use chariots for example. The Czech malt that I import comes from a floor maltings, more modern than Cerna Hora but windows are used for temperature regulation. These maltings shut down annually in August due to warm weather. I think Beestons and other modern floor maltings operate year round. There is currently a study underway in the Czech Republic to evaluate the relative merits of floor maltings vs pneumatic. Basically, the idea is to produce malt from the same barley at both facilities, then evaluate the beer made from each, both in pilot breweries as well as in small commercial breweries. We sell food grade phosphoric acid. As someone else mentioned it's a good cleaner for mineral deposits and such. Phosphoric is the key ingredient in Lime Away for example. Jim Busch corrected my spelling of Zatec (not Zatek). My misspelling emanates from the time I used to mispronounce the word as well. It is not zha-tek, as I used to say, but zhats (or something close), very similar to saaz. I'm up to tape 4 in my Pimsleur language tapes and I don't understand why Czechs just don't speak English--it's so much easier ;-) Lynne O'Connor St. Patrick's of Texas Brewers Supply 1828 Fleischer Dr Austin, Texas 78728 USA 512-989-9727 www.stpats.com Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2000 11:55:16 -0400 From: "Mark Tumarkin" <mark_t at ix.netcom.com> Subject: re: Hop and Gator Even down here in Gator country, Phil Wilcox's post on Hop and Gator comes under the catagory of Way More Info then INeed to Know - (though actually it was kinda interesting in a twisted sort of way) but at least you finish it off with "If you come to the AHA Conference, I promise I won't bring any with me! ;<)" thanks for that!! see ya there, Mark Tumarkin Gainesville, FL Return to table of contents
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