---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org
		Many thanks to the Observer & Eccentric Newspapers of 
		Livonia, Michigan for sponsoring the Homebrew Digest.
				URL: http://www.oeonline.com


Contents:
  Wort aerator / Grain deballer ("Frightened Suburban Brewer")
  'nother 'nother Adelaidean (tziersch)
  Water Analysis/Cream Ales (tkneall)
  Edmonton water ("Craig Lefevre")
  Aussies, Cherries and all-grain, oh my! ("Glen Pannicke")
  Glacier Water(tm) RO water? ("Dean Fikar")
  Re:Re: Bulging Cans (ALABREW)
  COMPETITION ANNOUNCEMENT #2 (Eric Tepe)
  ayinger yeast, rice lagers, replys, My Wit question ("Graham Sanders")
  watch out Darren! ("Thomas D. Hamann")
  Re:Sweet Corn as Adjunct ("J. Kish")
  Brewing In Khaki ("Phil & Jill Yates")
  Brewing Techniques Back Issues (Nick)
  ph ("Lynne O'Connor")
  whole hops to oz (Regan Pallandi)
  Beer in Holland (Marc Morency)


* 2000 AHA NHC pics and stories at http://hbd.org/miy2k
* JULY IS AMERICAN BEER MONTH! Take the American Beer
* Pledge of Allegiance! Support your local brewery...

* Beer is our obsession and we're late for therapy!


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----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Sat, 1 Jul 2000 06:15:38 -0500
From: "Frightened Suburban Brewer" <zemo at ameritech.net>
Subject: Wort aerator / Grain deballer

Bill wrote:
I have used in the past a stick-like device that attaches
to your drill.  It is about 3 feet long and has perforated
'wings' that swing out and aerate the wort.  I can't tell
if this device has made a whole lot of difference in any
of my beers, though.  It seems to work OK. Anybody else got
one of these?

I reply:
I've seen them in the wine section of an hb shop. They are
used to de-gas finished, stabilized wine. The wings fold
against the body so it will fit through the mouth of the carboy.
When it spins the perf'ed wings spread out, releasing trapped
CO2. Kind of a gimmick and not cheap - $10+ - but probably
would be effective for aerating.

Demonick wrote:
I dump all the sparge water into the tun, then dribble the grist
in while stirring.  Grain balls are what you fear.  Wet on the
outside and dry in the middle.

I reply:
Wandering through Home Depot, I came across a 'drywall mud stirrer'.
It's about two feet long, made from 1/4 in.(ish) stainless wire that
fits easily in a drill. The bottom six inches is bent into a sideways
D (flat on bottom). This works perfectly as a poor man's MixMasher(TM?).
For $3!! I still stir with a spoon as I pour in the grain, but I can
pour faster. Then I mix at the lowest speed on my variable speed drill
with the PMMM for about thirty seconds: Ta-da! No grain balls!

Zemo
Frightened Suburban Brewer
Batavia, IL

Am I genetically predisposed to prefer ales over lagers?




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Date: Sat, 1 Jul 2000 21:19:16 +0930
From: tziersch at iprimus.com.au
Subject: 'nother 'nother Adelaidean


Yep, I'm another South Australian from Adelaide.

Unlike Darren Miller I cannot piss between two suburbs from my house.

But I can piss on the Boadview footy oval. 

Well actually i can piss on the tennis courts next to the footy oval but i
felt the need to fit in by including footy in my post.

Any of you Adelaidians going to the Coopers Home Brew show next weekend ?

Too bad the home brew comp has the rule that you must have used a Cooopers kit
in your brew :( I havn't used one of those in years.

Cyas,
Troy


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Date: Sat, 01 Jul 2000 08:20:48 -0400
From: tkneall <tkneall at erols.com>
Subject: Water Analysis/Cream Ales

I've had trouble getting a decent report from my water company about the
mineral content in my area.  I have a nice long report about treatment
and other stuff, but nothing I can use.  If any of you live in the
Woodbridge/Dale City area and have details about the water, could ya
please send it my way.

Also, I've been researching cream ales.  I've read quite a bit,
including a couple older references.  I'm looking for more of it's
history and how it's evolved into what it is right now.  I'm also
looking for tasting suggestions.  I've had Little Kings, Genessee, and a
few others.

Thanks,
Tim


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Date: Sat, 1 Jul 2000 08:13:12 -0600
From: "Craig Lefevre" <cearll at telusplanet.net>
Subject: Edmonton water

Greetings one and all,
    if anyone has the water analysis for the Edmonton, Alberta (Canada)
water supply I would appreciate a copy
of the information. Private E-mails would be fine. Thanks.




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Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 12:44:48 -0400
From: "Glen Pannicke" <glen at pannicke.net>
Subject: Aussies, Cherries and all-grain, oh my!

Phil Yates wroe of Aussie Mud Slinging:

>But you can see, since of recent time a reasonable number of Aussie brewers
>have surfaced on the HBD, that a favourite national sport of ours is to
tear
>each other to pieces. Well, we really prefer to tear people of other
>nationalities to pieces. But left in a room (or forum) by ourselves, as you
>can see, pretty soon we are all "up each other". Sorry, I think that should
>read "at each other".

While I can't relate to HALF of the stuff you guys "down under" write, I do
find the mud slinging to be amusing as well as educational.  It's nice to
know that homebrweing is not an American-dominated hobby and that we share
the same passions on the other side of the world.  It's also nice to know
that some people use a REAL measurment system in a hobby that is mostly
tuned to an archaic one.  When most of your recipes call for x lbs of
something in y gallons of beer, try doing the crappy math and conversions to
x oz. of that same something in y oz. of beer (ie. going from batch to
bottle priming).  I'd rather move a decimal any day!  ;-)


Eric R. Lande wrote of using fruit (Cherries) in beer:

>I've never used cherries, but I have experience with other fruit (ie.
>peaches).  I assume that you are going to cut, crush or otherwise expose
>the meat of the cherries.  That assumption being made, yes you will get
>more fermentables (a good thing - otherwise it would be too sweet to
>drink).  In fact, you will likely find a lot of cherry skins after you
>rack and wonder what happened to the meat.

I've made few cherry beers and this is what I've learned to save a lot of
time and increse the quality of my brews:

1.  Add fruit to the secondary to retain the maximum amount of flavor and
aroma.  Rack beer on top of fruit, don't add fruit to the beer or you will
oxidize the beer.

2.  If you're worried over wild yeasts then wash the fruit with water
followed by a soak it in a bucket containing a few campden tablets for a few
hours.  Then drain the fruit.  Do not let the fruit sit in the water too
long (read overnight) or the cherries will swell and crack and the color
from the skin will be leached into the water.

3. Crush the cherries without doing any work.  Put the cherries in large,
clean freezer bags and freeze for a few days.  This will crack the skin and
rupture the cells thereby exposing the fruit to the yeasts.

4. Use a sanitized nylon grain bag to hold your fruit and tie shut with a
sanitized plastic "zip tie".  Dump the frozen fruit into your pre-sanitized
grain bag and tie shut.  Place in your sanitized secondary fermenter
(bucket-type) to thaw.  After the thaw is complete rack your beer on top of
the fruit.  Pits, skin and sludge will stay in the bag making your racking
to a clarifying fermenter (tertiary?!?) much easier.  The bag can chucked or
washed and sanitized for re-use.  Very little chance for re-contamination
with this method vs. a mechanical crushing session.  You can even use a
bottling bucket and rack directly from the spigot!

My 2 cents worth!


Lonzo McLaughlin wrote of All-Grain recipes:

>>Perry Merts wrote:  Will switching to all-grain significantly improve the
>>taste of my beer?

>I'm not going to start a big discussion here, but rather share my
>experience.

I won't get into making black & white statements on that one either, but I
will say that brewing all-grain gives me a greater degree of control and
flexibility of what goes into my brews, thereby allowing me more POTENTIAL
to brew better beers.  How's that for saying "yes" without really comming
right out and saying it?  ;-)  I have brewed some really smash-up beers with
kits and specialty grains though!

Brew well!

Glen Pannicke
www.pannicke.net



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Date: Sat, 1 Jul 2000 12:51:47 -0700
From: "Dean Fikar" <dfikar at flash.net>
Subject: Glacier Water(tm) RO water?

Has anyone used the Glacier Water(tm) brand of RO water, typically sold from
vending machines for about $0.30/gal?

I tried using a mixture of 20:80 filtered tap water to Glacier Water in
hopes of brewing an authentic Bohemian pils.  The resulting brew, however,
had a rather harsh bitterness which lingered and thus was not true to style.
I suspect, therefore, that the Glacier Water may have contained more ions
(sulfate maybe?) than RO water should have.  Anyone have similar experience
with this brand?

FWIW, the 20% tap water has these characteristics (ppm):

Calcium               41
Chloride              14
Magnesium            1
Sodium                11
Sulfate                 35
Tot. hardness     108 (as CaCO3)
pH                      8.5


Dean Fikar
Ft. Worth, TX





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Date: Sat, 01 Jul 2000 11:36:26 -0500
From: ALABREW <alabrew at mindspring.com>
Subject: Re:Re: Bulging Cans

Tracy Hamilton wrote:
In the process I did some reading on botulism.  Botulism toxin is
destroyed by 10 minutes of boiling.  So I would do at least that,
if there is a concern about a bulging can.

I bow to Tracy's research and will now recommend a 10 min. boil
just-in-case (for those that don't know Tracy, he is a Ph.D. chemist at
U of Alabama Birmingham)


Dave Harsh wrote:
My only direct experience with bulging cans is some infamous "Premier"
extract purchased a few years ago at a great discount.  The beers made
from this stuff were vile and revolting.  And those were their good
qualities.  Want me to tell you how I really feel?  Not hold back?   ;)

Dave, I can't agree more.

Dave Harsh also wrote:
> We recommend that canned kits only be boiled for 5 min.....
> I don't know where this "boil for 1 hour" thing started....

Probably because most recommend UNHOPPED extract so you actually have a
clue about what hopping level you will end up with.  From what I can
tell, 2 cans of extract could give you anywhere from 15 to 35 IBU in 5
gallons depending on brand and I've never seen it specified on the can. 
Of course, I haven't bought a can of extract in several years, so maybe
that has changed.

The canned kit in question was a Mountmellick Stout Kit - it is already
hopped. Several kits now have the IBU level of the kit on the label.
OTOH, for extract kits made with unhopped extract, we recommend steeping
any specialty grains and boiling the bittering hops (w/o the extract)
for 45 min. before adding the extract for the last 10 min. of the boil.
This is to reduce darkening and carmelization. The increase in quality
of the extract and this process has evened the playing field between the
extract and the all-grain brewers in the Brewmasters. It has become
commonplace for members to not know if a beer being sampled
(particularly if it is a darker style) is extract or all-grain. This
includes the 2 National and 5 Certified BJCP judges in the group.  

This procedure recommendation raised a good question just yesterday.
Does the pH of the solution affect isomerization of the hops? Would
water treatment effect the utilization or is isomerization just a
time/heat factor? Discuss... 
- -- 
Kim and Sun Ae Thomson
ALABREW Homebrewing Supplies
http://www.mindspring.com/~alabrew
mailto:alabrew at mindspring.com
Birmingham, AL
Home Beer and Wine Making Specialists



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Date: Sat, 01 Jul 2000 20:06:31 -0400
From: Eric Tepe <erictepe at fuse.net>
Subject: COMPETITION ANNOUNCEMENT #2

Attention all brewers,

If you are within a 6 hour proximity of Cincinnati, Do not miss Beer and
Sweat-the nations first and only KEG only competition! This event is put
on by the Bloatarian Brewing League and held at the Howard Johnson Motel
in Springdale, OH. We accept all forms of kegs and even 2 liters with
carbonator caps. This is a BJCP certified competition and is only $8 for
the first entry and $4 for each additional. There are  great prizes to
be won in our raffle and plenty of beer for everyone. Please see our web
page at www.hbd.org/bloat or contact me at erictepe at fuse.net for more
information. If you don't have an entry, come on down for the beer, it's
only $5 to get in.
Hope to see you there!!
Eric Tepe
Organizer-Beer and Sweat 2000

P.S.- Thanks for the plug Dave!.



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Date: Sun, 2 Jul 2000 10:16:58 +1000
From: "Graham Sanders" <craftbrewer at cisnet.COM.AU>
Subject: ayinger yeast, rice lagers, replys, My Wit question

G'day All

Well the famed ayinger is away.  Knocked up a Hellsbock on Saturday while
the Ayinger was a little slow on the plate, once I started stepping up
starters, well the bugger just kept on coming.  Very active yeast is this
one, seems it couldn't wait for the fermenter.  I must admit I was quite
impressed how quick the starters kept coming to krausen, but that I suspose
that could be human perception, I was keen to use it.

Speaking of the "Hilton", results are back on the liquid the yeast came in.
Here I was thinking the famed night at the billard table was due to the rice
lagers, but our chemists here in Nth Qld says that theres another substance
in the liquid. An extract from some fungus it seems.  Could those ladies be
on something else other than the Billard table I wonder.

>Bill Frazier wrote -  I see there is a nice airport in Townsville so travel
wouldn't >be a problem. And the Great Barrier Reef is near by so lots of
seafood to go >with my White Dog Ale and 4-Grain Pils.  Any restrictions on
Ex-Pats living in >OZ to escape winter?

Yep Bill, those southerners dont know what they are missing.  Some of the
best seafood arround.  I'll shout you a Mud-Crab when you come.  Its the
best thing arround, even better than the famed lobsters. they would go down
well with your beers.  Oh, you will need a Nth Qld passport (we dont accept
the OZ one) as well as the nomination of a Nth QLDer.  That no problem if
you send over a carton of your whares.  We then can sit here and throw
empties at the tourists.

>Now dear Adam Ralph says - Poor Graham does not have much climatic
>variation to speak of (no winter and no spring, only wet or dry) and thus
is >culturally impaired.  He for one can not enjoy a winter ale.  A word of
caution >about people from "Up North", its the heat that does it.

Bloody oath its the heat, so you are on notice now Adam,  but the wet and
dry he speaks of is only the state of my thirst.  If culturally impaired
means I have the climate to drink all year round, well, I think I can live
with that.  After all, there's nothing like enjoying a winter ale on those
rare days when the temperature plumits to 26c. But Adam is welcome up here
still.  At least he hates those Vics.

>Dear Scott. - (now sensei you are considered a seperate
>entity even though football is a common bond)

First words that make sense that have come out of your gob for a long time.
You ARE learning something my grasshopper.

> Lyndon Z is right when he says -If you're touristing and escaping the
winter >you may have trouble actually finding a local in Queensland to
complain, you'll >be so overrun by Japanese, Germans and Victorians.

We up here actually herd the zoo animals at two locations, Cairns and the
Whitsundays.  Easier make sure they piss off after they visit.  What they
dont know is they are actually surrounded by barbed wire and dogs so they
can't escape. We do have our fun with the tourists.

>And Phil. whats this rubbish. A Bonox warms the heart (especially if you
stir in >a tea spoon of battery acid) but recently Steve Lacey exhausted
himself >writing a prolific post and declared he was going to "Have a Bex
and a good >lie down"  What a Sydney poofter!!
>Here in Burradoo, serious beer drinkers have a Becks (or two) and a good
>lie down!!

No wonder we succeeded from the rest of you lot.  Whats wrong with a beer
with a beer and a good lie down.  Then a beer in the morning if you are
hungover (the heart starter). Bloody wowsers down south who dont know how to
drink.

>Finally poor Whimpy - I always pictured the Baron and the others brewing in
>khaki shorts and shirts with bush hats on, grabbing the occasional snake or
>croc, saying..." Gawd, ain't she a beauty, well by cricky, we'll let her go
before >she gets hurt.

Only here in the Nth does that exist.  Bet most down there haven't even seen
a saltie. As for jumping on one.  Well tourists still get taken by the water
lizards up here.  But if you want to jump on the back of a 30 footer you are
more than welcome.  One case up in the gulf, the croc had flayed the guy
into 4 pieces. his leg and half his hip were in one piece 20 feet up a bank.
The rest down his throat.


No One has come back on my Wit Question.  I have a temperature compensating
ph meter and I want to do a lactic rest for a day with a small amount of
grain and then add to the main mash.  Can anyone tell me what ph's I should
be aiming for at all the stages.  All I can recall is that the wort should
be about 4.9 at the start of the boil.  Is that correct?

Shout

Graham Sanders





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Date: Sun, 02 Jul 2000 12:33:48 +0930
From: "Thomas D. Hamann" <tdhamann at senet.com.au>
Subject: watch out Darren!


>Watch out Dazz, if you did what you said you could, you'll find LyndonZ 
>catching it and pitching a nice champagne yeast on top of it, he just 
>can't help himself!!!

Hi, Lyndon, I reckon an extract wheat beer base would be the go for a pLambic.

AND if you Adelaide HBD lurkers want to put faces to names and beers to 
faces then you can catch the "Adelaide Hills Amateur Brewers" (that's Brad 
McMahon and me) at the Grumpy's Brewhaus Stall this Saturday (the 8th July) 
at the Coopers Homebrew Show, Wayville Showgrounds. We'll be rostered on 
from 10-2.
See yuz there!




>Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 16:46:06 +0930
>From: "Darren Miller" <darren.miller at adelaide.edu.au>
>Subject: 'nother Adelaidean
>
>G'Day to yas,
>I too reside in Australia, South Australia, Adealide even. You could
>piss from my house in Clapham to Mitcham.
>Thats all
>Drink on
>Darren Miller
>





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Date: Sat, 01 Jul 2000 22:28:42 -0700
From: "J. Kish" <jjkish at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re:Sweet Corn as Adjunct

Joel Plutchak asked if anyone has ever
considered usung sweet corn as an adjunct.
 I planted some super-sweet corn to be used as
the adjunct in a special experimental C.A.P.
as soon as the corn is ready.  "Beer-Corn"
 I intend to dip the corn in boiling water
(to blanch), then scrape it against a corn-
creamer, and make several pounds of "creamed
corn".  I'll try mashing it with 6-row malt.
 This should be very interesting!!
Would anybody care to comment on this subject?
     Joe Kish


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Date: Sun, 2 Jul 2000 22:12:01 +1000
From: "Phil & Jill Yates" <yates at acenet.com.au>
Subject: Brewing In Khaki

Just a short note for Mr Wimpy who writes :
>I always pictured the
>Baron and the others brewing in khaki shorts and shirts >with bush hats on,
>grabbing the occasional snake or croc, saying..." Gawd, >ain't she a
beauty,
>well by cricky, we'll let her go before she gets hurt...... You >guys can't
>tell me that that isn't the way it is in OZ !.

Mr Wimpy,
Actually, depending on where you go in Australia, all of the above does in
fact happen. Certainly in Burradoo I wouldn't dream of brewing in anything
other than khaki.
And I have a good friend (who I taught to homebrew) who wrestles snakes and
other reptiles in a fashion that would put Crocodile Dundee to shame.

Searching for the real Australia, from a brewing point of view, has rather
captured my interest. Probably in a similar way that Jeff Renner has pursued
the brewing history of America.

There is a lot in the history and culture of both our countries that
shouldn't be let lost in this modern homogenised global village living that
we now all embrace.

Not that I am trying to hide in the past, I just think it is important to
hang on to a bit of individuality.
Hurry on over,
I'll serve you up a Mudgee Mud.

Cheers
Phil



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Date: Sun, 02 Jul 2000 14:01:52 -0400
From: Nick <nickl at sympatico.ca>
Subject: Brewing Techniques Back Issues

If anyone would like to finish off their collection of Brewing Techniques
I found some back issues here
http://www.wineandbeerfactory.com/whatsnew.htm
It finished off my collection.

Hope this helps.


Nick Lloyd
Mississauga ON.



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Date: Sun, 2 Jul 2000 14:01:42 -0600
From: "Lynne O'Connor" <stpats at bga.com>
Subject: ph

What is the pH of neutral water?

The correct answer is another question.  AT WHAT TEMPERATURE?

The pH of neutral water is 7 at 20C.  The neutral pH of boiling water is
closer to 6.
It has always been frustrating that virtually all brewing texts fail to
state the temperature at which they measure pH.

Understanding measurement of mash pH at different temperatures is a
2-step process.
1.  The actual honest to goodness pH depends on temperature.  In other
words the pH of a mash at 150F might really be 5.2 while this same mash
when cooled really is pH 5.5.  This issue is reflected in the temp
dependence of neutral water.

2.  pH meters without ATC (automatic temperature compensation)  measure
pH INACCURATELY AT ALL TEMPERATURES EXCEPT ONE, usually 20C.  In other
words, if you have a mash at pH 5.5 at 150F, your meter will not read
5.5 unless you are using a pH meter  with ATC (and the ATC must cover
this range, i.e., 0-70C).

A couple of other points about probes and ATC.
The life of all probes is greatly reduced when used at higher
temperatures.  This has nothing to do with ATC.   It is not a good idea
to keep the pH probe in the mash for any longer than necessary.

pH probes have limited temperature ranges over which they can operate
and survive--Again, this is irrespective of ATC.  For example, the best
quality Laboratory pH meter that we sell has ATC over 0-100C.  However,
the standard manufacturers probe with   this unit is quickly destroyed
if temp is over 50 or 80C (cant' remember which).  That's why I had the
manufacturer sub a probe that can work up to 100C (at a significant
price increase I might add).

There are advantages to measuring pH of cooled mash.
a) pH meters without ATC or with limited ATC range (0-50C for example)
are considerably cheaper.
b)all probes last much longer when used at room temperature
The only drawback is that you have to then estimate what the pH at the
higher mash temp is.  The 0.3 difference between 70 and 150F seems
pretty accurate.

Now what about pH papers and temperature dependence?  I'm not sure but I
think you have many of  the same issues with one additional one--as the
solution dries on the test strip it is cooling--so I'm not sure which
temperatue you are actually measuring the pH at.   One could check
quickly by simply measuring the pH of a mash at 150F and the same mash
at 70F and see if the difference is about 0.3.

Finally, I should thank my husband who has  explained pH temperature
dependence to many hundreds of chemistry students, almost as many times
as I've gotten the lecture.

Lynne O'Connor
St. Patrick's of Texas Brewers Supply
512-989-9727
www.stpats.com


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Date: Mon, 03 Jul 2000 11:51:58 +1000
From: Regan Pallandi <regan at esb.net.au>
Subject: whole hops to oz

>Someone recently asked about importing ingredients into Australia.  Coming 
>from an Agricultural and Plant Protection background, I would urge caution.  
>We really can do without more weeds, fungi and/or insects courtesy of the 
>rest of the world.  AQIS stated that you would require a phytosanitory 
>certificate and a tragaderma (grub, bug or weevil - I'm not sure) free 
>certificate.  Can St Pat's and the likes provide this?
>
>You would then have to go through a customs broker.  The associated costs 
>are quite scary.  Any comments Regan?

well, since my name has been taken in vain... :)  AQIS specifically states
that the importation of whole hops "for homebrewing purposes" is forbidden.
Commercial breweries can, after jumping through the hoops, import whole
hops (and promise to keep them under lock and key, guard them with thier
lives etc). About a year ago, we ordered about 5 kg of Saaz, Fuggles and
EKG, which duly arrived through the post. Gleefully, we then ordered bigger
amounts, which were intercepted by AQIS, and destroyed, so I speak through
sad experience. For some reason, they don't worry about hop plugs, and of
course, hop pellets are no problem. I know some fellow oz brewers have
ordered whole hops in small quantities (250gm - 1kg) and received them,
others have not been so lucky. 

cheers, Regan

Eastern Suburbs Brewmaker
149 Clovelly Rd. Randwick, 2031
N.S.W. Australia
ph/fax (02) 9399 8241
mailto:regan at esb.net.au
http://www.esb.net.au


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Date: Sun, 02 Jul 2000 21:23:58 -0500
From: Marc Morency <marcmo.marcobrau.com at mail.marcobrau.com>
Subject: Beer in Holland

I can recommend one particular brewery in Holland that you MUST stop by!
It is the Roffey Brewing Co. and they a few excellent products including
a pale ale, stout, and wheat beer. I'm fond of the Forecaster Pale Ale
and the Lake Effect Stout. I would highly suggest picking up a case --
or least a six-pack!

If  you want to know more about beer in Michigan check out the Michigan
Microbrewery & Brewpub Guide
(http://www.phd.msu.edu/bice/beer/brew.html) which is mentioned on my
website (http://www.marcobrau.com).

Cheers,

Marc


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