HOMEBREW Digest #3449 Wed 11 October 2000

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  The Jethro Gump Report ("Rob Moline")
  The Jethro Gump Report-Danger!! ("Rob Moline")
  Glycol/Water ("A. J.")
  spent grains in the REAL "Great White North" (Alan McKay)
  Glycol substitute ("Peter J. Calinski")
  Yeasty Flavor (Stephen Postek)
  Albany, NY Brew Experiences (Bob Hall)
  re: Nasty, wet spent grains and freezing weather... (Carl)
  Harshness in beer ("George de Piro")
  re: Cyser....kind of ("Daniel C Stedman")
  time travel ("Daniel C Stedman")
  Re Kansas City Water (John Palmer)
  More Stupid Brewer Tricks ("Jeff Beinhaur")
  Dubbel ("Spies, Jay")
  Water analysis, GABF, KROC ("Todd M. Snyder")
  Open Fermentation/Censorship /HSA is dead (again) ? ("Stephen Alexander")
  Beer can manufacturing ("Dave Howell")
  Fat Tire Recipe request (TSteinin)
  RE: Wood Alcohol (Bob Sheck)

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---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 01:36:53 -0500 From: "Rob Moline" <brewer at isunet.net> Subject: The Jethro Gump Report The Jethro Gump Report Congratulations !!!! Well, I call them the way I see them... From a letter I was asked to write to recommend a certain Mr. De Piro for a position on the Judging staff of the GABF, way back in April of 1999...and reviewed by some bloke called George... >Hi Rob, >Thanks for the glowing recommendation! You wrote: >>I can also sincerely add, that in but a few short months or years from >> now, he will not only, with your approval, continue to be a fine addition to >> your judging staff; he will also, in my opinion, be a Gold Medalist at this >> same competition. >Geez! Talk about pressure! Well, folks, another of your HBD colleagues has scored the big one, a Gold Medal at GABF for American Brown Ale!!! And as far as needing any pressure, let me call it up again with my prediction that this is only the first of many for George, and the C.H. Evans' Brewing Company! Of course, all the winners deserve congratulations, but I would like to issue special praise for 2 of my old friends... The GREAT folks at Left Hand Brewing for their Gold in the Brown Porter category...I first met Dick Doore in 1994, when his booth at GABF was next to LABCO's...we did NADA...he did a Gold and a Bronze... And especially to a "Brewer's Brewer"...Tomme Arthur of Solana Pizza Port for his Silver Medal in the Experimental category!! Tomme is one of those brewers that stands up for others, even when they don't know they need the help. His past also includes Gold at GABF! Folk's, nicer and more deserving brewers may be out there, but I haven't met them! Congratulations, Gentlemen!! Cheers! Jethro Gump Member, C.H. Evans Fan Club Member, Left Hand Brewing Fan Club Memebr, Solana Pizza Port Brewing Fan Club "The More I Know About Brewers, The More I Realize How Lucky I Am To Know Some!" Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 02:13:17 -0500 From: "Rob Moline" <brewer at isunet.net> Subject: The Jethro Gump Report-Danger!! The Jethro Gump Report-Danger!! >From: "Houseman, David L" <David.Houseman at unisys.com> >Subject: Glycol substitute >With pure glycol being expensive why could not one just use automotive >antifreeze in a ratio with water that assures that it won't freeze at >freezer temperatures? Ten gallons of this isn't cheap either but probably >cheaper and easier to obtain than glycol for the average homebrewer? There are many things that auto antifreeze can be used for....killing your pets, poisoning your garden plants, killing children, and keeping your auto cool. This stuff is poison...and should not be used in any application that comes anywhere near your brewery.... Food grade glycol is the only thing, except for water, or blends thereof, that should be involved in any chilling application in a brewhouse, be it commercial or home based...and it is not that expensive, when you blend it with water...as is often done.... Pin holes do develop in Heat Exchangers......and while no one wants any glycol, of even a food grade nature involved in your product...you certainly don't want to kill your customers....or yourself.....with auto antifreeze coolant... If you cannot afford food grade glycol...use water.... Jethro Gump "The More I Know About Beer, The More I Realize I Need To Know More About Beer!" Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 10:35:04 +0000 From: "A. J." <ajdel at mindspring.com> Subject: Glycol/Water I think most homebrewers use propylene glycol (definitely to be recommended because it is not toxic relative to ethylene glycol but always remember that the treatment for ethylene glycol poisoning is ethanol - now it never hurts to play it on the safe side) which is sold under the trade name Sierra in hardware, home depot type stores and automotive parts stores. WRT Tim Burkhart's water report: Calcium Hardness (Ca)= 94.00, Magnesium Hardness (Mg)= 36.00, Sodium (Na)= 47.60, Sulfate (SO4)= 150.00, Chloride (Cl)= 37.10, Carbonate (CO3)= 38.00, Total Hardness= 137, Alkalinity= 53,PH= 9.4 Total dissolved solids= 356 he asked the following questions: - Is "Calcium hardness" different from the "Calcium" content I'm looking for in my water analysis? - If it is different, how do I figure the actual calcium content? Calcium hardness is a measure of the positive charge on calcium ions. It is sometimes given in terms of the actual charge in units of milliequivalents per liter or millivals but most often in "parts per million as calcium carbonate" which is 50 times the millivals. To calculate the amount of calcium ions divide ppm as CaCO3 by 50 and multiply by 20 e.g. for this water 20*94/50 = 37.6 mg/L calcium ion. - With my PH at 9.4 (but taking Ca and CO3 in mind) do I need to acidify the mash water down to 7? No. In this regard it is not the alkalinity which is so important as the alkalinity and in particular its relationship to the calcium hardness. Alkalinity - (calcium hardness)/3.5 - (magnesium hardness)/7 = 21 is the "residual alkalinity" for this water and this is a very respectably number for nearly all beers - Do I need to mess with Gypsum or any other mineral addition? For beers where you want the sulphates effect on the hops flavor some gypsum might be of benefit. For establishment of pH it is not necessary except for beers brewed exclusively with pale malts. - Should I take the "anal" out of analysis, relax and brew with the water as is... while still acidifying the sparge water? This is a good place to mention Ken Schwartz's trick. Acidify sparge water with a couple of tablespoons of dry malt extract. Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 08:12:32 -0400 (EDT) From: Alan McKay <amckay at ottawa.com> Subject: spent grains in the REAL "Great White North" Well, you 'muricans seem to be in quite a quandry about what to do with spent grains in the winter. Myself, I just keep dumpin' 'em into my compost bin whether it be +30C in the summer, or -30C in the winter. Yes, spent grains stink the high-heavens when decomposing, but that's why you don't put the compost bin next to the door! BTW, in my experience small animals like birds and mice won't touch spent grains, I guess because they know that all the goodness is already gone out of them. cheers, -Alan - -- "Brewers make wort. Yeast Makes Beer." - Dave Miller's Homebrewing Guide http://www.bodensatz.com/ What's a Bodensatz? http://www.bodensatz.com/bodensatz.html Return to table of contents
Date: Mon, 9 Oct 2000 23:38:53 -0400 From: "Peter J. Calinski" <PCalinski at iname.com> Subject: Glycol substitute I don't know if this information is pertinent but, can you use RV (Recreational Vehicle) antifreeze? It costs about $1.88 a gallon in the US. I don't know about its thermal characteristics but it is advertised to be good to -50F. They use it to flush and fill the water lines in RVs for the winter. It can't be toxic since it is used on the drinking water lines. Pete Calinski East Amherst NY Near Buffalo NY Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 10:19:49 -0400 From: Stephen Postek <spostek at hdms.com> Subject: Yeasty Flavor I recently brewed up a batch of Connecticut Ale for the Clone Brews book. I have had mixed results to this point with the recipes, probably due to pilot error more than anything else. I have had the bottles in the basement carbonating for about three weeks now. Usually I leave it upstairs but I figured maybe it was time to start utilizing the basement a bit more for brewing. I took one out of the box over the weekend and it appeared a little hazy. It seemed to have a fair bit of carbonation in the bottle, yet there was a pronounced yeasty twang to it. I know this taste well from trying to the squeeze the last few drops out of the bottle while decanting and having a bit of yeast fall into the glass. Could it be that the basement is cooler than my dining room and it is not done carbonating yet even after three weeks? I have a double layer of cardboard on top of the cement and the bottles are in carriers so the temp is maybe 60-65 degrees versus 70-72 upstairs where I normally store them. Thanks. Steve spostek at voicenet.com Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 10:44:37 -0700 From: Bob Hall <nap_aca_bh at nwoca.org> Subject: Albany, NY Brew Experiences My group of college hockey fans, the CHF (College Hockey Fanatics), has a 60 room block in Albany, NY, for the NCAA Frozen Four at the Pepsi Center next April. Would appreciate recommendations for brew-related experiences (including don't-miss brews, tours, food, etc) that could be included in our upcoming newsletters. Thanks, Bob Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 11:08:14 -0400 From: Carl <carl at INTERNETCSI.COM> Subject: re: Nasty, wet spent grains and freezing weather... We have one of those giant hampster wheel type composters that many towns/counties/states give away free, and all spent grain goes in there - gardens and house plants love the results! Carl Schulze Group Home Brewery Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 11:06:52 -0400 From: "George de Piro" <gdepiro at mindspring.com> Subject: Harshness in beer Hi all, It's been a while since I've written in (or read) the HBD regularly; it was much easier to read it at work in the pharmaceutical industry. Brewing doesn't allow that much free time! Anyway, on to the question: Peter from Oz relates a tale of woe about harshness in his Munich Helles. He wonders what the cause could be. Jeff Renner suggests that oversparging could be the culprit. He is correct, it could be a problem, but there are some other things to look at as well: Harshness is commonly caused by high esters or fusel alcohols (alcohols with Mol. Wt. > ethanol). These compounds are formed as byproducts of fermentation. Pitching too little viable yeast can increase concentrations of both classes of compounds. Pitching and/or fermenting at too high a temperature will also increase both. Yeast strain selection also plays a role. Estery beer will taste fruity at palatable concentrations, but if certain esters get too high the beer takes on a strong, harsh, solvent-like character. Ethyl acetate is commonly to blame. Fusel alcohols will smell somewhat alcoholic (making the beer smell stronger than it is) and sometimes even fruity, but they are also harsh in high quantities. They are always formed by an excessively high rate of yeast growth. Of course, all of this is just speculation because I have not tasted Peter's beer. That would be the easiest way to give a definitive answer. If there are any knowledgeable brewers in your area (hobby or commercial) you may benefit by having them evaluate the beer. Have fun! George de Piro C.H. Evans Brewing Company at the Albany Pump Station (518)447-9000 http://evansale.com Malted Barley Appreciation Society Homebrew Club http://hbd.org/mbas Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 10:52:35 -0500 From: "Daniel C Stedman" <"daniel_c_stedman" at uhc.com> Subject: re: Cyser....kind of >I put them 2 and 2 together and got a great idea. Without thinking it >through, I just went ahead and racked my mead - all but the last half >gallon or so, and poured my cider mixture (5 gal. cider, 1.5lb brown >sugar, yeast nutrient) on top of the leftover mead and yeast cake and >attached blowoff hose. I got foam-over within 2 hours. >I just want to know...has anyone else tried this? I did this with one batch of cider to another and had terrible results. Some of the worst yeast bite I have ever tasted, and it never cleared. This was using Lalvin 1118 champagne yeast, which should have been durable. Don't know why, but I think the stress of fermenting out something with so few nutrients leaves the yeast screwed up for any further work. YMMV, but I won't try it again... Dan in Minnetonka (with 12 gallons of 1.048 wit beer and 5 gallons of cider fermenting away!) Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 11:00:26 -0500 From: "Daniel C Stedman" <"daniel_c_stedman" at uhc.com> Subject: time travel jwhite writes: >I've got some business on the west coast this upcoming week and all the >travel from the east to west coast makes me thirty! While I myself am only twenty-nine and not that interested in being thirty, I think that there are a lot of people who are going to want to know how you achieved this! ;-) Dan in Minnetonka Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 10:26:12 -0700 From: John Palmer <jjpalmer at gte.net> Subject: Re Kansas City Water Tim asked whether his water was good for mashing Pales, Browns, and Porters without mineral additions. His water is: Calcium Hardness (Ca)= 94.00 Magnesium Hardness (Mg)= 36.00 Sodium (Na)= 47.60 Sulfate (SO4)= 150.00 Chloride (Cl)= 37.10 Carbonate (CO3)= 38.00 Total Hardness= 137 Alkalinity= 53 PH= 9.4 Total dissolved solids= 356 - ----------------------------------------- - Is "Calcium hardness" different from the "Calcium" content I'm looking for in my water analysis? yes. - If it is different, how do I figure the actual calcium content? Divide by 50, multiply by 20 - With my PH at 9.4 (but taking Ca and CO3 in mind) do I need to acidify the mash water down to 7? No, not for Porters. Acidifying the sparge is like using an elephant gun for rabbit hunting. But 9.3 is quite high. If it is real, then it may be warrented in your case for brewing pale Pales. - Do I need to mess with Gypsum or any other mineral addition? Probably not. - Should I take the "anal" out of analysis, relax and brew with the water as is... while still acidifying the sparge water? Try it without doing Anything first. To determine what styles your water is good for, by itself, for mashing, you need to calculate the water's Residual Alkalinity. See Chapter 15 of my book for a complete explanation. http://www.howtobrew.com/section3/chapter15.html To do this, you need 3 ions: Ca, Mg, and HCO3. Or Calcium Hardness as CaCO3, Magnesium Hardness as CaCO3, and Alkalinity as CaCO3. Since you have the latter, we will use those. The equation is RA = Alkalinity - ((Calcium H/3.5) +( Magnesium H/7)) ie. 53 - (94/3.5 + 36/7) = 21 RA as CaCO3 and when you know that 0 RA is a pH of about 5.7 and 60 RA units = .1 pH, then we can say that your RA is about 5.73 This base malt mash pH means that you are a little bit on the low side for brewing Porters, but spot on for Pales. Browns should be okay. (And your flavor ions: sulfate, sodium, and chloride look good too.) However, your quoted water pH of 9.34 is weird. It is really high for the quoted Ca, Mg and CO3/Alkalinity values. I suspect that like most water reports, you are looking at a list of individual averages, which do not add up to a balanced system. Though having an Average of 9.34 is still weird. I suggest calling the water department and getting the results of a single analysis so you can check on what the actual balanced analysis is. Hope this helped more than not! John - -- John Palmer Palmer House Brewery and Smithy http://www.realbeer.com/jjpalmer How To Brew - the online book http://www.howtobrew.com Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 14:30:06 -0400 From: "Jeff Beinhaur" <beinhaur at email.msn.com> Subject: More Stupid Brewer Tricks Lately I've been experimenting with doing my secondary in corny kegs. I was using plastic zip ties to hold the dry hop bag to the dip tube in order to keep the hops totally submerged. The only problem with this method was trying to get it attached. Then one day I was in the hardware store and came across some large size ball bearings. Thinking this would work to keep the bags submerged I bought some, sanitized them and put them in the hop bag. After a week I transferred the beer to a serving keg only to find that the beer has a foul metallic taste and the ball bearings had a dark coating on them. I do ten gallon batches so I had another keg that I had used the zip tie on. That beer (an APA) tastes great. I'm not necessarily looking for other ideas to weight the bags down. My real question is, is there anything I can do to this beer to get rid of that taste? Finings? Filtering (I do have a filtering system)? Blend with the good keg? Also, am I doing harm to myself by drinking this? In other words, did I have some potentially hazardous substance leach into the beer? Please help. After about five years of brewing I recently had to dump my first batch of beer due to some type of infection (actually believe I got some bad yeast) and have another beer that is so so. Not because of infection but due, I think, to too high an initial fermentation temp. It breaks my heart to throw beer down the drain. Jeff Beinhaur, Camp Hill, PA Home of the Yellow Breeches Brewery Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 15:07:03 -0400 From: "Spies, Jay" <Spies at dhcd.state.md.us> Subject: Dubbel All - Russ asked about recommendations for a Dubbel. Here's my take: Good start, but I'd add a few things... First, save yourself a lot of headaches and just go with a single infusion mash at 153 for 60 minutes. Doing the bulk of your sacc rest at 148 will give you too thin of a beer and that's not what this style is about. Mash out if the mood hits you. Second, the grain bill looks okay, but I'd scratch the biscuit and substitute a pound of caravienne. Then nix the caramunich. You'll get too many bready flavors with the biscuit and caramunich that'll clash with the estery yeast flavors. Aim for an OG in the 1.070's. Which brings me to my third point. You made no mention of yeast selection, and in this beer, the yeast is everything. I use Whitelabs WLP500, and a local brewpub slurry, Wyeast 3787 mixed together. Use a trappist-specific strain to get the flavors you're looking for, though. Ferment in the high 60's and you'll get a load of fruity, plummy, red fruit esters that go well with the malt. Your hops seem about right. I aim for about 23 IBU's, YMMV. This is, overall, one of my favorite recipes to make. I *aim* for Chimay Grand Reserve. I say aim because the real thing is SOOOOO good. Above all, have fun with it and tweak the recipe till it hits you just right. HTH, Jay Spies Wishful Thinking Basement Brewery Baltimore, MD Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 17:21:40 -0400 From: "Todd M. Snyder" <tmsnyder at buffalo.edu> Subject: Water analysis, GABF, KROC Hi Tim, Some of what you wrote: >Johnson County Water District 1 (My brewing water source / filtered through >PUR charcol filter) >- ----------------------------------------- >Calcium Hardness (Ca)= 94.00 >Magnesium Hardness (Mg)= 36.00 >Sodium (Na)= 47.60 >Sulfate (SO4)= 150.00 >Chloride (Cl)= 37.10 >Carbonate (CO3)= 38.00 >Total Hardness= 137 >Alkalinity= 53 >PH= 9.4 >Total dissolved solids= 356 >- ----------------------------------------- > - Is "Calcium hardness" different from the "Calcium" content I'm looking for >in my water analysis? Yes. According to AWWA's Standard Methods for the Analysis of Water and Wastewater: Hardness is expressed as 'as CaCO3 (calcium carbonate)' and is calculated as: Hardness as CaCO3=(Ca, mg/L)*(2.497) + (Mg, mg/L)*(4.118) Therefore, to get Ca (mg/L) from Ca hardness (mg/L CaCO3), divide by 2.497. To get Mg (mg/L) from Mg hardness (mg/L as CaCO3), divide by 4.118. So, if my math is right, you have 38 mg/L Ca, and 9 mg/L Mg. Forgive my rounding, but I have a hard time believing the data are accurate to 4 significant digits ;-) . The rest of the stuff is in ppm or mg/L. I'm guessing that the reason for the difference between the total hardness and the sum of the Ca and Mg hardness (7mg/L) is from temporary hardness related to dissolved CO2 (the carbonate system), and/or errors inherent in the analysis of Ca and Mg. There are some other minor players in water hardness, but I don't think they'll be on this order. Certainly nothing to worry about. > - With my PH at 9.4 (but taking Ca and CO3 in mind) do I need to acidify the >mash water down to 7? Secondary Drinking Water Regulations in the US (as well as Canada and the World Health Organization) list pH 6.5 - 8.5 as nonenforcable secondary maximum contaminant levels (SMCLs) to maintain aesthetic water quality, so 9.4 seems a little high. Are you sure that's what's coming out of your faucet? If you're using your own pH meter, are you calibrating it correctly? I'm sure you'll get a flurry of postings related to adjusting this pH down for mashing, so I won't get into it. I'll also leave the brewing water appropriateness stuff to others and to your brewing texts (not to mention that I don't know!!). On another note, my wife and I along with a couple friends had a great time at the GABF this weekend. Some of the highlights were getting my copy of The Complete Joy of Homebrewing signed first by Micheal Jackson, then by Charlie himself! Also really enjoyed the KROC's beer forum on Thursday night, although we regrettably had to leave before hearing Geoff Larson of Alaskan Brewing speak. We'd been up since 4am (2am Denver time) and were completely whipped. Out of great reverence for Geoff, however, I did wear my Alaskan Smoked Porter shirt and cornered him into signing that also! I can now die in peace. Actually not yet, I still have to figure out a way to get that Smoked Port shipped out here to Buffalo when it comes out in November! Cheers! Todd Snyder Buffalo, NY Niagara Association of Homebrewers - ------------------------------------------------------- "A society that will trade a little liberty for a little order will lose both, and deserves neither." Thomas Jefferson - ------------------------------------------------------- Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 18:25:51 -0400 From: "Stephen Alexander" <steve-alexander at worldnet.att.net> Subject: Open Fermentation/Censorship /HSA is dead (again) ? David Houseman asks .. >Jim Busch's comment about lagers benefiting from open >fermentation lead met to ask why? About 5 time per 'gest I feel like screaming, "look in the friggin' archives", but since I don't do this myself I won't throw stones. The atmospheric O2 has an impact on yeast metabolism (and other things) but *may* be positive in some circumstances. See Andy Walsh's excellent note on the topic at: http://hbd.org/brewery/library/EstFormAW0696.html discusses one issue in depth. Jim Busch paper on open fermentation appears on the same site. == AJ as usual knocks one out of the park, tho' on the non-technical censorship issue. <<Censorship of incoming e-mail is the fault of neither the bean counters nor the HR people - it is the lawyers keeping the management in perpetual fear [...] Thank your government for this situation.>> As one who uses lawyers on civil/contract matters occasionally it is quite apparent that their primary job function is to scare the bejeebers out of their clients by reciting every potential (tho' improbable) risk. So as the blame for this situation moves from beancounters to HR to lawyers to government let's go full circle and understand that the government is us. Our horse&buggy era design representative method of governance is as crude at representing our interests as to be like typing with mittens on - but that's the system and if you don't vote you don't deserve any better. Vote ! I personally think (especially this election year) that we should have the option of casting a negative vote - so which ever 'lessor of two evils' wins won't strut around thinking they have a public mandate. I am deeply troubled by any censorship tho' I see Pat's request as a suggestion to keep the language unfilterable as a favor to our HBD comrades in corporate gulags. As an escapee from such a gulag I am sympathetic. I am also a person who understands the value of a well chosen word to add emphasis to a point. Since these filters are pretty dumb - just consider it a challenge and find your thesaurus. It doesn't really impact the content in any way - just the precise wording. === Richard Sieben says ... >but for us homebrewers, where yeast >is still present in the beer, the oxygen is taken up very quickly. That's just not true - yeast do not continuously consume oxygen as it is available. I have a nice Czech paper that indicates that most of the O2 is used just after the glucose/sucrose are gone regardless of how much is supplied. Also a recent one that shows excess O2 in the fermentor may reduce sulfite levels and have a negative effect on flavor stability. The dormant yeast on the bottom of a bottle of keg do act to reduce oxidation but don't expect them to consume significant amounts of bottling/kegging O2. >In fact, if we keep the bottled beer cold (near freezing)with out >filtering out the yeast it will be flavor stable for 4 months or maybe >even longer. True but only if the yeast cooperate and don't autolyze. Many yeast will last 4 cool-months w/o any trouble. Some (like most weizen yeast) will stink like an old shoe even at near freezing temps in a lot less. The other factor involved the initial beer flavor stability. There have been several studies that numerically related factors (malt lipid oxidase enzyme level, ITT (oxidation state)) to the flavor stability of beers. It is just silly to say that all unfiltered beers no matter how made will be stable for 4 months. I've seen counterexamples up close tho' at something like 3 months. Most HBs are flavor stable as indicated above - some few are not. I completely agree that post ferment oxygen and heat are big flavor issues - but there is absolutely no denying basics - that excessive exposure to oxygen during the mash & boil produce cruder flavored beers immediately (see Kunze). Also two papers in the past 2 years show that oxygen molecules involved in the breakdown of fatty acids into trans-2-nonenal from isotope studies do NOT come from post fermentation oxygen - which refutes older theories on the subject. None of this proves that HSA is the source - but one must posit some prefermentation source related to ITT values and lipase and that sounds a lot like mash oxidation. >HSA was brought up by Japanese brewers who were making a >light, dry lager (remember the 'dry'beers?) The test results were > INCONCLUSIVE, but IF there is any impact from HSA, it would >only apply to LIGHT DRY LAGER that will be exposed to adverse >conditions, like living on a grocery store shelf for a year. Japanese only study LIGHT DRY LAGER and also of course LIGHT DRY LAGER has unique staling properties which apply to no other beer ? There a little bit of logic missing from this attempt to bury a topic by innuendo. Trans-2-nonenal is a well known characteristic staling compound which derives from linoleic acid through a serious of (only partly verified) transformations. Whether it's from the mash& boil or not it is a real if uncommon problem and does appear in HB at times. >you should concentrate on being more anal about >post fermentation aeration. I completely agree - but you can't just sweep cardboard flavor under a rug by calling it a ghost. It is provably NOT from bottling oxygen - tho its rate of formation increases with warm beer storage. One other form of staling which is talked about a lot in the literature is much more common than cardboard, but very little discussed on HBD is that ales tend to become over-sweet and with a molasses-like note as an early form of staling. This happens a lot earlier than 4 months - see diagram in M&BS pp872-873. >The problem that commercial brewers have is that they have >to take the yeast out to make it nice and clear, this also >means that they have no real flavor stability and the beer >begins to change as soon as it leaves the brewery. Live yeast play an active role in reducing beer - tho' not necessarily in removing significant amounts of oxygen. I have repeatedly found that bottle conditioned beers - stored in a cool basement for periods of a year or even two are always fresh enough to enjoy.. I usually find when I clean a keg at 3-4 months the yeast at a far lower temp have undergone a significant degree of autolysis. I can't explain why. I have several times bottle conditioned and force carbonated the identical same beer and always several months later the bottle conditioned beer clearly has the flavor edge - often with better hop aroma. Yeast can help tremendously, but don't assume the ones that make it out of the fermentor are heathy enough to help. === Peter J. Calinski ... >He claims draft beer always gives him a headache. Peter's friend probably has problems consuming the yeast in unfiltered beer. Not uncommon. -S Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 17:24:59 -0700 From: "Dave Howell" <djhowell at uswest.net> Subject: Beer can manufacturing This is only slightly OT, I think most people here might find this interesting. I found this while looking for PCS band base station antennas. Ball makes some interesting things... Including beer cans. The whole container products site is pretty interesting, too. http://www.ball.com/bhome/images/inbev.pdf Dave Howell Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 20:28:12 EDT From: TSteinin at aol.com Subject: Fat Tire Recipe request Does anyone have a clone recipe for New Belgium's Fat Tire Amber Ale or recipe suggestions (grain bill, hops, yeast, and so on)? Since New Belguim is not available in Ohio, I need to make it myself. Any ideas to get me started are appreciated, all-grain or extract - does not matter. Personal email responses are appreciated. Tim Steininger Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 21:45:57 -0400 From: Bob Sheck <bsheck at skantech.net> Subject: RE: Wood Alcohol Yes I'm a bit behind in absorbing the HBD, but I have to comment about this as I have a few questions about this after reading about distillation on the DBD. After following the links from : http://www.geocities.com/kiwi_distiller/wash-fruit.htm#pot I was reading a treatise on distillation which stated that the first to come out of the still is Methanol which IS toxic to the optic nerve. Now considering that the mash is fermented grain, I would have to conclude that there is _some_ portion of methanol in our beers too. Maybe A J can help explain this. I'm over my head again on this but still I was curious. . . Bob Sheck / DEA- Greenville, NC / >Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2000 15:17:23 -0500 >From: Bill_Rehm at eFunds.Com >Subject: Wood Alcohol > >Doug Brown asked about wood in beer and the creation of wood alcohol. The >answer is no, this will not create wood alcohol. Wood alcohol is a >by-product of burning wood in the absence of oxygen. The technical guys >will give a better answer, but I do remember way back in high school we >"distilled" wood making wood alcohol and charcoal (Mr Goodspeed if you are >listening I did learn something from you!). So don't worry about wood and >beer making wood alcohol Return to table of contents
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