HOMEBREW Digest #3834 Wed 09 January 2002

[Prev HBD] [Index] [Next HBD] [Back]

		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org


          Northern  Brewer, Ltd. Home Brew Supplies
        http://www.northernbrewer.com  1-800-681-2739

    Support those who support you! Visit our sponsor's site!
********** Also visit http://hbd.org/hbdsponsors.html *********

  thx to CD Pritchard; blades for mash mixer? (Bret Morrow)
  poisonous wort? (JohanNico)" <JohanNico.Aikema at akzonobel.com>
  hop tea (Randy Ricchi)
  AHA membership price (Chuck Mryglot)
  RE: That darned elusive... Schmidling-nel (Brian Lundeen)
  Re: hop tea (Rob Dewhirst)
  Beginner's Ode to Homebrewing ("R. Schaffer-Neitz")
  RE: Czech and Pilsner yeasts (question) ("Houseman, David L")
  Re: Stability Testing Wort ("Patrick Finerty Jr.")
  Hint of Smoke ("Ray Daniels")
  Re: Barley Wine Fermentation (Spencer W Thomas)
  re: Stability Testing Wort ("Steve Alexander")
  Re: Barley wine HELP (Jeff Renner)
  FYI (Roger & Roxy Whyman)

* * Show your HBD pride! Wear an HBD Badge! * http://hbd.org/cgi-bin/shopping * * Beer is our obsession and we're late for therapy! * Send articles for __publication_only__ to post@hbd.org If your e-mail account is being deleted, please unsubscribe first!! To SUBSCRIBE or UNSUBSCRIBE send an e-mail message with the word "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to request@hbd.org FROM THE E-MAIL ACCOUNT YOU WISH TO HAVE SUBSCRIBED OR UNSUBSCRIBED!!!** IF YOU HAVE SPAM-PROOFED your e-mail address, you cannot subscribe to the digest as we cannot reach you. We will not correct your address for the automation - that's your job. The HBD is a copyrighted document. The compilation is copyright HBD.ORG. Individual postings are copyright by their authors. ASK before reproducing and you'll rarely have trouble. Digest content cannot be reproduced by any means for sale or profit. More information is available by sending the word "info" to req at hbd.org. JANITOR on duty: Pat Babcock and Karl Lutzen (janitor@hbd.org)
---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 05 Jan 2002 21:21:29 -0500 From: Bret Morrow <bret.morrow at prodigy.net> Subject: thx to CD Pritchard; blades for mash mixer? Greetings, First I'd like to thank CD Pritchard & his web page (& Ken Schwarz & web page). I finally finished my plastic/electric HLT and immersion coil/stirrer/grear motor lid to allow heating the recirculating liquid from the mash. Both these were based on CD's designs. I'm sure he does not remember, but he emailed me some help about 2 years ago! Hey, I've been busy! I have now a new project. I have a nice size gear motor (~5-60 rpm) that I am thinking of using for a mash mixer. I read in the archives that Pete Calinski made one but doesn't use it anymore and that our janitor (the Yeast monster--Pat Babcock) had a windfall of 2 electric motors and was thinking about a mash mixer (did you do it??). So, what does everyone think? Is a mash mixer worth making? If so, what should the blade design be? TIA Cheers, Bret Morrow Hamden, CT ( Rennerian coordinantes withheld in case he's still po'd at me about the 50's music jokes...) Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2002 07:38:13 +0100 From: "Aikema, J.N. (JohanNico)" <JohanNico.Aikema at akzonobel.com> Subject: poisonous wort? Hi, John Pendergast wrote about the risks when >taste any unfermented wort product that has been left unrefrigerated for ant peroid of time! > I also read in Kirk -Othmer encyclopedia: beer cannot, because of its low pH (4,2) harbor any pathogenic germs! Does this mean, that when the pH of the wort is low (4.2), the risks of getting food poisened or even dieing are gone? Greetings from Holland (Europe), Hans Aikema <http://www.hopbier.myweb.nl/desinfectieenbacteria.html> (sorry, in Dutch) Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 08 Jan 2002 08:34:34 -0500 From: Randy Ricchi <rricchi at ccisd.k12.mi.us> Subject: hop tea CMEBREW asked about making a hop tea to add to his beer at kegging time. I assume you are planning to strain the tea through a coffee filter because of clarity concerns. While this may aid in clarity, it may (not sure, just guessing) filter out some of the hop oils, reducing flavor and aroma. What I have done to get tremendous hop aroma (and you can't help but get a lot of hop flavor as well) in a finished beer is to heat 2 or 3 cups of the beer up to the boiling point in a sauce pan, then remove from heat and drop in a half ounce of hops and steep for two or three minutes. I first put the hops (whole) in a mesh bag. While the hops are steeping, I squeeze the bag with two spoons several times to force hot beer through the leaves and extract as much hop goodness into the beer as I can. Then I lift the hop bag out with the two spoons, squeezing to extract as much liquid as I can, then add the tea back into the rest of the beer. This will probably cloud the beer for awhile, but it will settle out. I don't worry about cooling the tea first, figuring that the small amount of hot tea will be cooled almost immediately when dumped into 5 gallons of cool beer. If this concerns you, cool the tea first. If you're worried about clarity, do this when you rack to secondary (carboy), let sit for a couple of weeks, then keg it. I have used this technique while bottling IPA's, and by the time the bottle has carbonated, it's clear. I think your idea of 3 or 4 oz hops is WAY too much. Hope this helps. Randy from Michigans UP Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 08 Jan 2002 08:50:31 -0500 From: Chuck Mryglot <cmryglot at cisco.com> Subject: AHA membership price Curious if this has happened to anyone else.... I received the AHA membership renewal card in the mail a while back...1 year $28 US (discount from $33).... with an invitation to renew online and receive a free gift. So, what's not to like? I log on and renew. I get my credit card statement and it shows that I was charged $33 instead of the advertised $28. What's up with that? I call AHA to get this corrected and am informed that the $28 price is only if you (snail) mail your renewal in and that if you renew online that the price is $33. What's wrong with this picture? - Snail mail : more labor intensive but costs less?...e.g. encourage snail mail - e-renewal costs more? ... e.g discourage this - no where on the membership renewal card does it explain this? It's only $5 bucks but I feel like I was ripped off. Anyone else? ChuckM Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2002 08:16:11 -0600 From: Brian Lundeen <BLundeen at rrc.mb.ca> Subject: RE: That darned elusive... Schmidling-nel Mike Pensinger appears to be having some trouble tracking down the always pleasant and courteous Jack Schmidling, producer of fine malt mills and the man who gave Canadians the title of Howling Savages, for which we are forever in his debt: > I have been trying to email JSP Productions and keep getting > a returned email. Permenant Fatal Errors. Does anyone have a > good email address. I have been using arf at mc.net. If all else fails, you can probably get his attention through the Cheese Lover's Digest, possibly the single least posted-to digest on the planet. I think it's the only Digest where mistakenly directed subscription messages outnumber the actual posts. In any case, his address there is: cheese-owner at hbd.org Cheese... I mean, Cheers Brian Lundeen Brewing at [314,829] aka Winnipeg Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 08 Jan 2002 07:51:31 -0600 From: Rob Dewhirst <rob at hairydogbrewery.com> Subject: Re: hop tea > > >I am considering boiling a qt. of water, cooling it to 160, pouring this over >3 or 4 oz of leaf hops, and steeping for 15". Then strain it thru a coffee >filter into the bottom of a corny keg before filling with fresh brew. > >Will this add much hop flavor/aroma? I have hallertau tradition hops. I hope >to hear from those who do this or have tried it. I split a batch of beer once and used the same hop variety and amount to dry hop half of the batch and made hop tea for the other half. The consensus from the members of my homebrew club was that the hop tea was far more bitter and astringent. There wasn't much aroma added. - --- Giving money and power to government is like giving whiskey and car keys to teenage boys. -- P.J. O'Rourke Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2002 11:25:31 -0500 From: "R. Schaffer-Neitz" <rschaff at ptd.net> Subject: Beginner's Ode to Homebrewing I hope I'm not taking bandwidth from someone who actually has something to contribute, but I came up with this over the last day or two and had to share it before I either forgot it or decided it was stupid (I'd rather let others do that for me ;) ). Beginner's Ode to Homebrewing (you'll know what tune to sing it to) Don't know much about chemistry. Don't know microbiology. Don't know much about the protein rest. Don't know when to do a PH test. (chorus) But I do know I love to brew. And I know that with some CO2 What a wonderful beer it will be. Don't know much about malt extract. Don't have a scale to make my weights exact. Don't know how to make a lauter tun. Don't know how to use a solder gun. (chorus) (bridge) I never claimed to be Charlie Papazian. Dr. White is beyond my ken. But I know that if it comes out decent I'll wish I'd taken notes and try it again! Don't know much about sanitizing. Don't know why my beer keeps oxidizing. Don't know if esters are good or not. Don't know if I need a bigger brewpot. (Chorus x2) There it is, for what it's worth. Bob Schaffer-Neitz Northumberland, PA 375, 102.6 (apparent) Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2002 11:28:42 -0500 From: "Houseman, David L" <David.Houseman at unisys.com> Subject: RE: Czech and Pilsner yeasts (question) Darrell, when you say that the vial is a year old and you don't want to pitch it alone, you seem to imply that you have a vial of the other that you would use. Personally, I'd grow up a large starter for either one, especially since you are brewing a lager. If the old vial has any viable yeast cells you can go through several iterations of starters to get the amount of yeast you need without having to resort to using additional yeast strains. Mixing strains seems to be a different question and the results might be interesting, but the key is a large, healthy volume of yeast no matter the strain. Dave Houseman SE PA Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2002 11:43:59 -0500 From: "Patrick Finerty Jr." <pjf at finerty.net> Subject: Re: Stability Testing Wort On Saturday 5 January, 2002, John Pendergast wrote: > DO NOT under any circumsataces taste any unfermented wort product that has > been left unrefrigerated for ant peroid of time! This is a great way to get > food poisoning and die. There are no known pathogens that can live in beer > so the fermented product is safe without refrigeration, but without the > yeast bacteria that can kill you can develop in the wort Ok. This was a completely excessive response. One must assume that someone will not taste something that smells bad and, while the bacteria that cause food poisoning do not necessarily produce bad odors, they will make the solution cloudy and will likely be accompanied by bacteria that do produce bad odors. There are very few bacteria that can kill you after ingesting very small amounts. Perhaps Clostridium botulinum (botulism) comes to mind but that is a strict anaerobe and would not be present in wort. I say use your head, eyes and nose. If it looks cloudy or has a foul odor, use caution. If not, have a taste (and spit it out if it tastes wrong)! One of the more likely contaminants of wort (which is an acidic medium) is wild yeast. This will not kill you (ask any woman). Categorical responses are best told to those who cannot think for themselves. They do nothing to promote thoughtful discussion. -p - -- Patrick J. Finerty, Jr., Ph.D. Forman-Kay Laboratory Hospital for Sick Children Toronto, ON, Canada http://finerty.net/pjf Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2002 11:24:21 -0600 From: "Ray Daniels" <raydan at ameritech.net> Subject: Hint of Smoke Rick Foote asks: "What is the flavor threshold for smoked malt in a five gallon batch? What is the minimum needed to reach a discernible level? I know there are lots of variables. To reduce some of these, lets assume fresh, commercial rauch malt (Weyermann). Just get me within spittin' distance. Thanks." The simple answer is one pound. This is what we use in the five gallon recipe for "Ein Hauch von Rauch," a pilsener-style beer with "a hint of smoke." Works out to about 11 percent of the grist for those who look at things that way. The resulting beer will have just enough smoke to pick out if you know it is there or have a really acute palate. By half-way through the glass you will have become accustomed to it and won't even notice it. Smaller amounts are sometimes used by Bamberg-area brewers, but then most people can't pick out the smoke as a specific flavor element. Nonetheless it adds additional complexity and character to the beer and can be very effective in that role. Ray Daniels - [197.8, 264.2] Apparent Rennerian Editor, Zymurgy & The New Brewer Director, Brewers Publications Don't Miss: Real Ale Festival - Feb 27 - March 2, 2002 - Chicago, IL www.realalefestival.com Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 08 Jan 2002 15:02:17 -0500 From: Spencer W Thomas <spencer at engin.umich.edu> Subject: Re: Barley Wine Fermentation John Wrote: John> The stuff took off within a few hours. ... The stuff is John> still in the primary and is very cloudy. ... there are still John> globs of stuff running around in there and the cloudy look John> suggests active fermentation. It bubbles every few seconds. John> My question is this: ... Should I rack John> to the secondary to avoid off flavors? >>>>> "susan" == susan (dave?) woodall <woodsusa at moscow.com> responds: susan> It sounds like you have the problem is chill haze. You susan> could raise the fermentation temp a little and that will go susan> away. I disagree. It's still fermenting. The cloudiness is yeast. To address John's question, if you're worried, then rack it off the trub. In that case, you may want to rack again after fermentation is pretty much done. On the other hand, at 65 degrees, you can probably leave it sit for another month if you want to, with no ill effects. =Spencer Thomas in Ann Arbor, MI (spencer at umich.edu) Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2002 15:10:29 -0500 From: "Steve Alexander" <steve-alexander at worldnet.att.net> Subject: re: Stability Testing Wort John Pendergast writes ... >Somebody made the following statement yesterday That was me John. >>I just moved to a place with well water, so I've got two stability tests >>underway. [...] but do let them go until you >>see infections then sniff and maybe taste the product. > >DO NOT under any circumsataces taste any unfermented wort product that has >been left unrefrigerated for ant peroid of time! This is a great way to get >food poisoning and die. Whoa there John. Your comment is about as valid as suggesting no one should drink water in Central America or own a cat since these can carry illnesses and they might die die die ! That's just not a realistic level of fear you are suggesting. There is nothing dangerous in boiled, imperfectly sterilized wort or in potable tap water. The only realistic fear then is that one of the minor infection organisms which we would commonly consume in small quantities would grow to a large number or produce toxins as part of growth in wort. Some bacteria do require large numbers to cause illness (like salmonella) while others require growth periods to produce toxins. When you eliminate bacteria that won't reproduce in wort or that don't require large numbers to make you ill, or that could only come from fecal contact, etc - we are left with a rather small list of problem organisms. Bacillus cereus for example appears on grain, it's spores can survive short boil periods and it produces a toxin that causes mild stomach problems. Certain Salmonella could multiply if they were present in wort too - but the source is usually animal or fecal matter and that simply shouldn't be present in the test wort. There are a few other diarrhea type bugs that might multiply, but I don't see any lethal bugs that are likely to present. Think about how we normally start yeast from slants and step it up to starter size. This process has similar risk of infection by your hypothetical lethal bugs as a stability test, yet it never happens. Wild yeasts and lactobacilli are by far the most numerous pests in wort stability tests. I suspect it's because they are the most prolific fermenters of the lot, quickly out-reproducing the others and have the ability to handle maltose. If either takes over then the lowered pH will handle most of he obnoxious competition. Yes, there is a chance that you could pick up a mild case of "the runs", but just how great is that risk ? Recently (1999, 2000) the FDA has required "labeling only" for unpasteurized fruit juices and cider. These fluids carry very similar risks as the wort in stability tests. These fruit juices carry an additional danger in that there have been a couple cases of E.coli 0157:H7 and cryptosporidea in apple/orange juice, where it appears that fallen ("drop") fruit was contaminated with cattle fecal matter. This added danger of fecal organism contamination was the reason for requiring warning labels. There was also an outbreak of Salmonella ss. Meunchen in unpasteurized orange juice. Cause unknown but fecal contamination likely. Anyway my advice stands. Let the wort stability tests run then give it the sniff test. *Usually* it will smell like either a somewhat 'off' beer or wine fermentation or a lactic (sour mash) fermentation - somewhat Lambic-like tho' often with a good wiff of DMS. If that's the case and you're a reasonably healthy adult then it's about as safe to taste as any naturally fermented product - Lambics, hard cider, kraut, kimchee. If it smells like cabbage, rotting veggies or a sewer - then I'd skip the taste test for a lot of reasons. Yes there is a chance you could get some gastric upset from this procedure, but I suspect it's about as likely as problems with unpasteurized juices or alfalfa sprouts. >There are no known pathogens that can live in beer >so the fermented product is safe without refrigeration, but without the >yeast bacteria that can kill you can develop in the wort I think this talk of lethal bugs is inspired by some of the extreme FDA/USDA literature that would have you believe that a carrot kept for 6 hours above 40F is a hazardous (yes really!). I'd like to hear from a Jim Liddil or someone equally expert on the topic. -S cc: Jim Liddil Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2002 21:37:08 -0500 From: Jeff Renner <JeffRenner at mediaone.net> Subject: Re: Barley wine HELP "Mauricio Wagner" <mwagner at alean.com.ar> writes from Buenos Aires, Argentina >I'm trying to brew my first ALL GRAIN - Barley wine. I trust this is your first all grain barley wine, not your first all grain brew of any sort. >1) We don't have access to the British Pale malt. We use as base malt the >one used by the Big Boys here, PILSEN MALT. >Do I have to take in account something with this change? Modern pilsner malts I am familiar with can be mashed at a single temperature infusion mash with fine results, although they often are step mashed. However, I know that some Australian malts, for example, are malted to leave higher than normal residual unfermentables in order to balance the 100% fermentable sugar that Australian beers use. I suspect that this would not be the case with Argentine malts. Are your domestic pilsner style beers all malt or do they use cereal adjunct such as maize or rice? >2) Which liquid YEAST you suggest me to use? and other alternatives? > >Also what do you think for this use about the dry Yeast from SAFALE or >Nottingham? I have been happy with any of the British ale yeasts I've used, but Nottingham might be a good choice for such a high gravity beer. I dislike it for normal strength beers as it ferments out too much for my taste. HBDer Rob Moline (doesn't post much these days) brewed a gold medal winning barley wine five years ago or so at a brewpub using Nottingham followed by champagne yeast. I think this was the first most of us had heard of Lallemand's Danstar dry yeasts. >3) I'll try to use the following malt Bill. > >#9 Pilsen Malt >#0.5 Crystal 70 Lobibond >#0.5 Munich That won't make much barley wine - maybe 8-10 liters, depending on how much you are willing to boil it down. Did you perhaps mean kgs instead of # (pounds)? That would make close to the usual 19 liter batch. The crystal and Munich will add unfermentables, which isn't necessarily desirable in the case of barley wine, in which it is often hard to get fully fermented. But they will also give greater complexity and some caramel maltiness. I definitely think that some dark malt is a good idea. I once made an all pale malt barley wine which seemed flabby and lacking bite. The addition of some dark ale helped. If you wanted to add a bit of chocolate or even a very little black malt, that might help in that direction. >I have also Wheat malt. Do you suggest to add it? Let say to add #0.5 to the >malt bill.? I don't think that would add anything. It's often added to help head retention by adding a little extra protein. You'll have lots of protein. >Do you suggest to add or change anything? I want to get a 10% alcohol in >Volume. >(approx.) That will be a challenge. be sure to use lots of healthy yeast. Danstar's Nottingham might be a good choice here since it's easy to get lots of yeast in prime condition that way. Pitch 3 packs in 19 liters, or even 4. >4) Do I try to be during mashing below 65 Centigrades or higher (more >fermentables or not)? >I use single step infusion. I would go for 65, then add some boiling water to raise to 70C if you can. >5) water to grain relation for mashing? 2 liter /Kg is Ok? That's a little stiff, but if you do a two step mash, that should work for starters, then add more boiling water to boost to 70C. Good luck. Jeff - -- Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, JeffRenner at mediaone.net "One never knows, do one?" Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943 Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 08 Jan 2002 20:02:59 -0700 From: Roger & Roxy Whyman <rwhyman at mho.com> Subject: FYI Hello fellow brewers, A story and then someone may be able to explain why. On Dec 22, my wife ordered a Maxichiller from Precision Brewing Systems in NY. On the 23rd we received an order conformation that appears to be computer generated. On the 31st, I sent an email requesting how was this sent and do you have a tracking # so that I may check the progress? Sometime after the new year, my wife called and left a message as to where is the chiller and why have you not responded to our communications. We then checked, online, our VISA account and found they have never charged the card. Anybody know anything about these people? Lastly, who makes a similar chiller and do you have a web site or phone # Cheers, Roger Whyman Parker, CO Somewhere west of Jeff, and a little south, too Return to table of contents
[Prev HBD] [Index] [Next HBD] [Back]
HTML-ized on 01/09/02, by HBD2HTML v1.2 by KFL
webmaster at hbd.org, KFL, 10/9/96