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	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
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Contents:
  De Koninck Recipe? ("Shawn E Lupold, Ph.D")
  re: force carbonating (Paul Kensler)
  RE: empty kegs (Kelly Grigg)
  re: Ohio makes progress! ("Steve Alexander")
  heat protection for thermo and sight glass ("the freeman's")
  Troy's kegging problems ("Brian Schar")
  West Coast Stout ("H. Dowda")
  Kegging staleness ("Dave Burley")
  Chill Haze ("Chris Dodge")
  Subject: I need some help - harsh flavors after carbonating ("Kent Fletcher")
  Luke's ZAPAP ("Czerpak, Pete")
  Re: Spoiled Results - Argh! (Martin_Brungard)
  RE: San Diego brewpubs. (Marc Donnelly) ("Geiser, Chris")
  Re: How to protect sight tube from heat? (Kent Fletcher)
  Re: Empty kegs (Kent Fletcher)
  newbie questions (Peter Collins & Sara Wilbur)
  Wort Aeration Sterilization Question ("Steven P. Bellner")


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Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2002 09:23:23 -0400
From: "Shawn E Lupold, Ph.D" <lupolds at jhmi.edu>
Subject: De Koninck Recipe?

After a recent trip to Belgium, my wife has decided that De Koninck is
her absolute favorite beer.  Unfortunately, it's very hard to find and
expensive.  I would like to try cloning it in my next brew.  From what I
remember, the beer has a less complex nose and taste compared to
traditional Belgian Trappist or Tripples, but I have no idea where to
start. If anyone is familiar with this beer or has attempted to clone
it, I would appreciate some suggestions for grain bill, SG/FG, hops,
yeast, etc.
 
Thanks for your help.  
 
Shawn




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Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2002 06:24:52 -0700 (PDT)
From: Paul Kensler <paul_kensler at yahoo.com>
Subject: re: force carbonating

"My problem is that my beer tastes/smells excellent
until I force carbonate it. It then picks up stale and
harsh flavors."

Troy,
I've successfully force-carbonated kegs and haven't
noticed this problem, so all of my suggestiong might
be just stating the obvious but do you purge the kegs
after filling them with beer?  Do you use an airstone
and if so, do you purge it with CO2 before filling the
keg?  What temperature are your kegs while they are
carbonating (kept cool or cold and out of direct
sunlight, etc.)?  

It sounds like your bottled beers don't suffer these
problems...  have you tried splitting a batch to see
how the exact same beer progresses in the bottle vs in
the keg?  Say kegging some in a 3 gallon keg and
bottling the other 2 gallons (or if you don't have a 3
gallon keg, make a 6 gallon batch and keg 5, bottle 1
gallon).  Could there be any other changes to your
brewing process or equipment that happened at the same
time that you started kegging that could be the cause
of the oxidation / staling?

I think its doubtful that your regulator is leaking
air into the lines...  if the regulator had a leak,
the CO2 pressure in the system would be pushing CO2
out thereby preventing any air flowing in - plus your
tanks wouldn't be lasting so long.

I can't imagine it would be possible for your local
CO2 supplier to have twice filled your tanks with pure
O2?  I don't know much about commercial gas
operations, but the enormous danger in such a screw-up
leads me to believe that there would be physical
differences in O2 and CO2 tanks that would make that
impossible.

Is it possible that you got some beer up into the
regulator and there is an infection in there?  Any oil
or lubricant coming out of the regulator?  From your
post it sounds like you've disassembled and cleaned
everything.

The second pressure guage on the regulator doesn't
really change until the tank is almost empty - its not
a very good indicator of how full the tank is. 
Depending on the size of your tank, they probably will
last quite a while.  I have a medium size tank (15 or
20#) and it seems to last forever.

I guess one possible solution would be to prime and
naturally carbonate the kegs - but if there truly is a
problem with your CO2 or CO2 system, then you'd just
be delaying the staling...  no reason why you
shouldn't be able to force carbonate...

My force-carbonating procedure is to use a stainless
carbonation stone.  I flush C02 through the stone and
through the beer-out dip tube before filling the keg. 
After the keg is full, I seal the top and purge /
release three times before putting 10-15psi pressure
on the keg.  I'll then move the keg to my temperature
controlled chest freezer and the next day (after its
chilled) I hook up the gas to the carbonation stone
and crank the psi up to 15-20 and check the keg every
12 hours or so until its just right.


I hope this helps,
Paul Kensler
Gaithersburg, MD



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Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2002 09:04:40 -0500
From: Kelly Grigg <kgrigg at diamonddata.com>
Subject: RE: empty kegs

Howdy!!

I live in NOLA too...hehehe, I just managed to get mine from some friends,
and I didn't ask where they got them...didn't want to know.
:-)

Actually, one suggestion that was made to me  was to go drive around
Tulane and Loyola in that area, and go by the Frat. houses...quite often
they have kegs there...offer them like $10-$20 bucks for them.
Or, if worse comes to worse...I think a deposit on a keg is like $50, just
rent a keg, and don't return it. Also, I've seen them for sale, often already
converted (for crawfish boilers) in the local newspaper...check that out.

I currently have 2, and soon will have 3....we just cut off the tops with
a grinder...and in one of mine, we drilled a hole in the bottom and installed
an EZ masher (get them at Brew Ha Ha on Magazine St.).  I use this one
as my mash/lauter tun.  I use the other for sparge water...etc. This system
works great for me...been doing 10 gallon batches with ease. 

Give these avenues a try...if they don't work, email me off list, and I'll
ask around to see if there is a extra keg I can lay my hands of (besides my
3rd one...hehee).

But, try the university thing...or ask one of the bars around here if they'd
unload an empty one to you for a couple of $$'s.

HTH,

Kelly

On Thu, Jun 20, 2002 at 12:14:13AM -0400, after pounding the keys randomly, 
byron towles came up with....
> ------------------------------
> 
> Date: Wed, 19 Jun 2002 07:04:12 -0700 (PDT)
> From: byron towles <btowles at yahoo.com>
> Subject: empty kegs
> 
> I'm looking to pick up an empty full sized keg for use as a brewpot. I'm
> not certain where is the best place to pick up such items. I've gotten
> a couple of suggestions, but would like to know how other homebrewers 
> have found their modified kegs (if they use them at all). Any suggestions
> as to how and where I can find an empty keg would be appreciated. And, if
> it helps, the local area is New Orleans. Thanks in advance.
> 
> Byron Towles


- ------------------

Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright
until you hear them speak.

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Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2001 10:07:28 -0400
From: "Steve Alexander" <steve-alexander at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: re: Ohio makes progress!

Harsh, David writes ...

>It seems Ohio may have figured it out - the state Senate passed a law
>doubling the permitted alcohol content in beer to 12%!  [...]

But (I believe) failed to pass the rider that reduced the outrageous wine
tax and state minimum price laws.   Also the brewery must register their
product w/ the state so maybe you'll see Sam Adam TripleBock
but I wouldn't plan on finding many small brewery imports.  The
distilled product laws are still post-prohibition era ridiculous too.

Oh well - it's a firm step into the 20th century, so now
we're just one century behind in Slow-hio.

 -S




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Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2002 09:31:12 -0500
From: "the freeman's" <potsus at bellsouth.net>
Subject: heat protection for thermo and sight glass

While I do not have a sight glass or thermometer on "the perfesser's"
boiler, I do have a sight glass and a thermocouple pick up on the HLT.
I once heated that HLT with a burner and sought, as you are now doing,
heat protection.  I had a SS heat shield welded to
the HLT just below the items in question to divert the flame away from
them.  It is possible to pop rivet that same
protection to the side of a keg if you drill BELOW the weld line.

Probably the best insulation in this instance is ceramic wool - this
assumes you are not satisfied with simply diverting the heat.  Any
company that deals with kilns or fire brick will probably have a scrap
that they will give you.  Ceramic wool stops heat well enough that you
can put a propane torch flame on one side of 1" of wool and then place
your hand comfortably on the other side.

If you can not readily find the ceramic wool, let me know.

Bill Freeman aka Elder Rat
KP Brewery - home of "the perfesser"
Birmingham, AL



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Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2002 08:24:21 -0700
From: "Brian Schar" <schar at cardica.com>
Subject: Troy's kegging problems

Troy, I feel for you, as I had nothing but problems myself when I started
kegging.  My basic problem was different; no matter how much I tried, two
out of every three batches were flat upon dispensing, no matter how much
priming sugar or force carbonation I used.  There wasn't a leak anywhere in
my system, either.  I spent so much time worrying about it that I realized
it was easier to just go back to bottling.  I am back to enjoying brewing a
lot more now.  Plus, it's easier to give bottles away to friends and enter
competitions.

Now that you mention it, the last batch I kegged had a stale cardboard
flavor, which my beers never have, and I used my standard brewing process.
I would recommend putting your CO2 tank and kegs someplace cool and dry in
your garage for a few years, or giving them to someone in your homebrew
club.

Brian Schar
Menlo Park, CA



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Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2002 09:07:44 -0700 (PDT)
From: "H. Dowda" <hdowda at yahoo.com>
Subject: West Coast Stout

Recently, at least one competition (B.U.Z.Z. Boneyard
Brewoff)has used this new (non-BJCP?) category to
provide a place for a considerable amount of the stout
being brewed (it seems) by HB today.

Has anyone else adopted it?  If you had an opportunity
to enter in this category would you be interested?

 http://brew.ncsa.uiuc.edu/buzz/Style16X.txt.



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Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2002 12:49:48 -0400
From: "Dave Burley" <Dave_Burley at charter.net>
Subject: Kegging staleness

Brewsters:

Troy complains about the impact kegging has on his stability of his beer.
Stale flavors ruin his kegged beer.

I suspect you are not removing the oxygen from the keg.  Simply spraying in
CO2 gas in the keg, as is often suggested, will not do it due to the fact
that gases are infinitely mixable, especially in a small space like a keg.

Some years ago I posted a calculation that it would take 100 keg volumes of
CO2 to reduce the oxygen to 1% of its level in air. And that is still not
enough to ensure stability.

But I figured out how to do it. Fill your keg with sanitized water and push
out the water with CO2 gas. This will guarantee you have all the oxygen out
of the keg. Then fill the keg through the "out" port if you can pressurize
your beer or are transferring it from keg to keg, in the case you are
filtering it, for example. Be sure to open the relief valve at the top of
the keg.

Or I most often just carefully loosen the lid and slide a tube into
partially covered keg and fill from the bottom up. This gives you a CO2
blanket all the way to the top which works just fine. Put on the lid, open
the relief valve and shoot in some CO2 on the "in" side to sweep the
remaining gaseous area clear of any air. You will need a set of CO2 hoses
and hookups since in and out have slightly different connections.

Hope this helps.

Keep on Brewin'

Dave Burley.




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Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2002 12:47:06 -0400
From: "Chris Dodge" <chrisdodge at hotmail.com>
Subject: Chill Haze

I am going to be filtering my latest batch of IPA and wanted to get some 
concensous on what Micron rating I should use to filter out chill haze.  I 
have a cartridge type filter and will be chilling my beer at 30F for a 
couple days prior to filtering.

Thanks
Chris





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Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2002 12:05:15 -0700
From: "Kent Fletcher" <kfletcher at socal.rr.com>
Subject: Subject: I need some help - harsh flavors after carbonating

Troy,

You may be overdoing it in scrubbing the cornies. It is possible to scrub
through the surface oxide layer on stainless steel, exposing iron which can
certainly produce off flavors in the finished beer.  If this is the case,
the steel can be "re-passivated" to restore the protective oxide layer.
John Palmer posted an excellent treatment, it's at:
http://hbd.org/hbd/archive/3326.html#3326-9
You might try this before kegging your next brew.

Kent Fletcher
brewing in Southern California




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Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2002 15:26:50 -0400
From: "Czerpak, Pete" <Pete.Czerpak at siigroup.com>
Subject: Luke's ZAPAP

In HBD#3967 Luke asks about his heated ZAPAP style masher and how long it
takes to clear.

As many people, my first mash/sparge device was a Zapap.  I actually mashed
in the oven in a 5 gallon pot and then gently (sometimes and sometimes not)
dumped my mash into my Zapap which was also lined with a large grain bag
that I reused between batches.

I used the grain bag to assist in the holding back on fines particles that
could make it through my Zapap holes.  It seemed to work okay.

After dumping I would let the bed set for 15 minutes.

So I batch sparge normally and I don't usually recirculate more than 2 to 4
qts (maybe 10 to 15 minutes) generally on 5 gallon batches.  I don't shoot
for crystal clear but more of a generally clear of larger particles.  I find
that excessive recirculation in the chase for crystal clear wort may lead to
excessive oxidation of the mash liquors.

When I drain my primary runnings, it took about 15 to 20 minutes.  And maybe
10 to 15 minutes to drain my second runnings.  Also, I would let the grain
bed sit for 15 minutes after adding my full batch sparge water to settle the
grain bed.

I currently use a Phils Phalse in a 10 gallon Gott and I generally see
faster clearing of wort.

In your setup, you probably want to minimize the stirring of the mash which
would forces fines through the fine mesh (and out of their filter bed) into
the liquor takeoff pickup device.

Good luck,
Pete Czerpak
albany, NY



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Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2002 15:35:59 -0400
From: Martin_Brungard at URSCorp.com
Subject: Re: Spoiled Results - Argh!

Chad Gould had some good observations regarding sanitation that I can
reinforce.  He mentions "sanitation is 90% physical, 10% chemical -
overreliance on chemicals is not a good idea".

I was just reading one of my water and wastewater trade magazines that had
an article on biologic contamination.  They mentioned that psuedomonas
aueralis (sp?) is a very common bug.  What makes it particularly difficult
to combat is that it is one of those slime-film producing bacteria.  The
film protects the organism from attack by chemicals and such.  The article
said that the film can be produced by the bug after it has attached itself
to a surface for about 30 minutes.   One consideration here is that the
article dealt with potable water systems.  These things can't be chemically
cleaned with the harsh things we can apply, the water system is always in
use!

The point here is that there may not be any substitute for scrubbing, as
Chad mentions.  Scrub where you can.   This certainly gives me a reason to
be concerned for my counter-flow chiller.   Hopefully my PBW regimen is
sufficient to keep the bugs out!

Martin Brungard
Tallahassee, FL




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Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2002 18:05:47 -0500
From: "Geiser, Chris" <Chris.Geiser at Unisys.Com>
Subject: RE: San Diego brewpubs. (Marc Donnelly)

Sad to say that to the best of my knowledge there are only two left in
downtown: Rock Bottom on 4th adjacent to Horton Plaza and Karl Strauss at
Columbia and B streets. There is also a place named Henry's on 5th that has
Stone Brewing ales on tap and a few "Irish Pubs" that have the usual British
stuff.



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Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2002 18:01:06 -0700 (PDT)
From: Kent Fletcher <fletcherhomebrew at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: How to protect sight tube from heat?

Gary,
The thermometer should not be affected by the
temperature. As to your sight tube, it depends on the
material. You mentioned "rubber" but your tube is more
likely made from PVC or polyurethane. Several
homebrewers have made shields by using a length of
stiff tubing, cutting out a long window with grinder.
You could also attach a metal shield below the sight
tube. Or you could upgrade to teflon tubing - FEP is
translucent, available in all of the popular
diameters, is rated up to 400 deg F.  McMaster-Carr
http://www.mcmaster.com/
carries all of these.



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Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2002 18:13:09 -0700 (PDT)
From: Kent Fletcher <fletcherhomebrew at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Empty kegs

>From: byron towles <btowles at yahoo.com>
>Subject: empty kegs
>
>I'm looking to pick up an empty full sized keg for
>use as a brewpot. I'm
>not certain where is the best place to pick up such
>items.

Byron,
Try eBay.  Saw somebody selling two or three about a
week ago, already converted to kettles.  If you're
looking to convert the keg yourself, you might try
contacting your local beer DISTRIBUTOR, and asking if
you can purchase a "retired" keg.  And don't forget
local metal scrap businesses.

Kent Fletcher
brewing in Southern California



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Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2002 21:19:16 -0400
From: Peter Collins & Sara Wilbur <sarapete at sympatico.ca>
Subject: newbie questions

Hi all,

I just joined the HBD digest and am quite excited about the wealth of
information available and the exchanges that go on here. 

I am an intermediate-level homebrewer and have been for about five
years. My questions are as a newbie to the digest, not so much as a
newbie to brewing and are mostly specific to the area in which I live
(Cambridge, Ontario):

1. I am curious as to where homebrewers in my area buy their
ingredients. Currently I am travelling to Toronto to "Brew Your Own" to
buy my grains, extracts and yeasts. I would love to find something
closer but have not had good response from local BOP's and none of the
wine BOP's have any idea what I am looking for. My biggest concern is
yeast as I use liquid yeasts. 

2. Has anybody ever ordered stuff or had any dealings with "Paddock
Wood" in Saskatchewan? I found their site online tonight and it piqued
my interest. Being able to order and have the ingredients delivered is
ideal but would it be worth it? 

3. I want to build an external thermostat for my beer fridge. Does
anybody know where I can get the necessary equipment to do so locally?
Is it more worth my while to just get one ready-made? 

4. Are there any local homebrew clubs? I have called the BOP's for some
advice but in their words "We don't make any money off you homebrewers."
I would prefer to not have to deal with them in the future. 

I appreciate your input and your patience with my questions. I would be
glad to have personal responses in addition to or instead of digest
responses. Please feel free to respond to sarapete at sympatico.ca.

Thanks again for your time.

Peter



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Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2002 23:08:58 -0400
From: "Steven P. Bellner" <sbellner at chartertn.net>
Subject: Wort Aeration Sterilization Question

I would like to ask the collective a question about wort aeration.  I have a
powerful aquarium pump and a homemade carbon odor filter, and was going to
use this device to aerate my wort during tomorrow's brew.  I do not have a
HEPA filter on-hand.  Would it be advisable to pass the air through a 50-50
mixture of vodka/water before blowing it into the wort?  Would there be any
beneficial sanitazation of the air with this setup, or am I best served by
waiting for a HEPA, or does it really even matter?

I am am beginner/intermediate extract/specialty grain brewer, and I try to
improve my technique on each new batch I brew.  I have gone from Mr. Beer
(awful) to extract with grains, added a wort chiller, added Cornelius
kegging, and am now concentrating on improving my pitching technique.  I
would certainly appreciate hearing from the voices of experience.  Thanks.


Steven P.  Bellner
sbellner at chartertn.net




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