HOMEBREW Digest #3970 Sat 22 June 2002

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  De Koninck (TOLLEY Matthew)
  Re: Spoiled Results - Argh! (Petr Otahal)
  West Coast Stout / American Stout in Competition ("Beechum, Drew")
  Re: Wort Aeration Sterilization Question (R.A.)" <rbarrett at ford.com>
  RE:Mashing Questions for a Barley Wine (Don Lake)
  DeKoninck Recipe ("Tomusiak, Mark")
  Posting to HBD from AOL... (Pat Babcock)
  West Coast Stout ("Brian Schar")
  Post-Forced Carbonation Blues (Karen & Troy Hager)
  Re: West Coast Porter and Stout (Bill Wible)
  Just in time for the 4th of July (Althelion)
  MB RIMS Chamber ("Drew Avis")
  gushing beer = contamination? (Rama Roberts)
  Oat Malt Stout ("Angie and Reif Hammond")
  Response to Kegging and Oxidation ("Crouch, Kevin E")
  RE: newbie questions (Bill Tobler)

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---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2002 14:53:07 +1000 From: TOLLEY Matthew <matthew.tolley at atsic.gov.au> Subject: De Koninck >If anyone is familiar with this beer or has attempted to clone >it, I would appreciate some suggestions for grain bill, SG/FG, hops, >yeast, etc. We discussed this very beer recently on OzCBD. Re the yeast, one of the locals thought it might be Wyeast 3787 which has spicy cinnamon notes. Adopted local Jeff Renner replied: "According to http://smurman.best.vwh.net/zymurgy/wyeast.html, 3787 is Westmalle yeast. I don't think de Koninck is available from WhiteLabs or Wyeast." Local Warren White wrote: "It's a wonder that some enterprising Craftbrewer hasn't thought of going for a de Koninck at cafe Pelgrim in Antwerp by all accounts they'll give you a shot-glass of the yeast as a prelude to your de Koninck." Jeff Renner later wrote: "If anyone simply has to have it...Dan McConnell of Yeast Culture Kit Co. http://www.yeastculturekit.com/ has it... De Koninck yeast - A72. It was obtained just as Warren surmised." Re malt/hops/fermentation, Warren White wrote: "This is a brief description from Michael Jackson's "Great Beers of Belgium" (Great read too :-) De Koninck beer is made only from malt, with no adjunct of maize or other brewing sugars. The malts are a blend of Vienna and Pilsner types. The hop accent is Saaz (you were right). Shoot from around 25 IBUs. The gravity is 11.8 Plato (1.047). The hops are added three times. It spends seven to eight days in fermentation up to 25c, and has about two weeks cold conditioning." So, get yourself an all-malt Belgian Pale ale recipe (or formulate your own with Pilsner and Vienna), chuck in some A72 and you should be in the oval (sorry - ballpark) somewhere. Cheers! ...Matt... Return to table of contents
Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2002 15:00:24 +1000 From: Petr Otahal <potahal at utas.edu.au> Subject: Re: Spoiled Results - Argh! Greg Smith wrote: >I store my carboys in a bleach >water solution, so they're always ready to rinse and use. I let my conical >sit overnight in an Iodophor solution for the most recent batch, to make it >"extra" clean. I take off the conical's valves and clean and boil them >twice - after every batch leaves the conical, and again the day of brewing >the next batch. And I use a brush to clean the valve holes on the conical. Hi Greg, What do you use to "clean" the conical fermenter with? There is a difference between cleaning and santizing. Iodophor is good at sanitizing but no good at cleaning, and there is no point sanitizing a vessel if it is not clean first. Bleach on stainless is not a good idea as it will eventually pit, 3% caustic (NaOH) solution is the best on stainless. If used warm/hot it doesn't require a long soak but if used cold it is best to leave overnight. It requires a thorough rinse, as well as the use of safety glasses and rubber gloves (it is very corrosive to the eye). I clean my kegs with it about once every six months with hot 3% caustic, but fermenters generally get more cruddy than kegs. Cheers Petr Otahal Tas. Aust. Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2002 22:56:47 -0700 (PDT) From: "Beechum, Drew" <Drew.Beechum at disney.com> Subject: West Coast Stout / American Stout in Competition H.. (hmm.. no first name) Over here in Maltose Falcons territory, we've had our own style guidelines for as long as I've been around. Our guidelines (for more than 5 years now) have carried Class 16.4 - American Style Stout, which is the name we used for West Coast Style. So for 2 competitions per year we have an American Style Stout class. We tend to modify our styles every year. This year we modified our definitions for Saison. We're planning to modify our American and English IPA classes to include a new Double IPA style and a new Baltic Porter style. http://www.maltosefalcons.com/comps/2002_Falcons_Style_Guidelines.pdf - -- Drew H. Dowda writes : > ------------------------------ > > Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2002 09:07:44 -0700 (PDT) > From: "H. Dowda" <hdowda at yahoo.com> > Subject: West Coast Stout > > Recently, at least one competition (B.U.Z.Z. Boneyard > Brewoff)has used this new (non-BJCP?) category to > provide a place for a considerable amount of the stout > being brewed (it seems) by HB today. > > Has anyone else adopted it? If you had an opportunity > to enter in this category would you be interested? > > http://brew.ncsa.uiuc.edu/buzz/Style16X.txt. Return to table of contents
Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2002 09:04:36 -0400 From: "Barrett, Bob (R.A.)" <rbarrett at ford.com> Subject: Re: Wort Aeration Sterilization Question Steven P. Bellner writes: >I would like to ask the collective a question about wort aeration. >I have a powerful aquarium pump and a homemade carbon odor >filter, and was going to use this device to aerate my wort during >tomorrow's brew.... I have gone from Mr. Beer (awful) to extract with >grains, added a wort chiller, added Cornelius kegging, and am now >concentrating on improving my pitching technique..... Steven, You are on the right track to improving your beer by improving your pitching technique. Using yeast starters and oxygen to aerate your wort are the two most important improvements anyone can make to their homebrewing process to make their beer better. Our beer improved 100% when we started using oxygen to aerate our wort and the wort for our yeast starters. I would suggest forgetting about the air pump and get an air stone instead. You will not be disappointed, if you invest in an air stone and start using oxygen to aerate your wort. You can get small oxygen tanks for less than $10 each at your local hardware store or Home Depot. They will last for 5-10 batches of 5 gallons each. I turn on the tank for about 45 seconds to aerate a 5 gallon batch. I think I read somewhere that it would take more than an hour with an air pump to get the same amount of oxygen into your wort. Using happy yeast and giving them an environment that they will be happy in is the best way to improve your beer. Just my $0.02. Cheers!!! Bob Barrett Ann Arbor, MI (2.8,103.6 Rennerian) Return to table of contents
Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2002 09:15:09 -0400 From: Don Lake <dlake at amuni.com> Subject: RE:Mashing Questions for a Barley Wine I received the following reply from Wendell Ose. Since he was having problem posting to HBD, I said I would re-post it for him. >I am planning to brew my first barley wine using the all-grain method >using a converted sanke keg as a mash tun. My questions are: > 1) Approximately how many pounds of grain can I comfortably mash in a >converted sanke keg? >2) What kind of effeciency should I expect (I normally get 70-75%)? >3) Should I not sparge for the first runnings until it runs dry and then >add water for a second runnings beer? >4) What else should I be asking? Don, I have trouble sending directly to HBD since I am on AOL I think. If you think my info is worthy of HBD, please post. I can help with your first question and give credit to John Palmer for bringing it to my attention in an old Brewing Techniques article where I used to read your fine writing I believe. John doesn't refer to it as such but I call it the "42 Ounce Rule." One lb of malt and one quart of water will displace 42 ounces of volume. If you dilute your mash more than one qt per lb, just add the amount in excess of 1 qt to 42 to figure the displacement. Example, a 15.5 gallon mash tun/keg will hold 47.24 lbs of malt if the mash is diluted 1:1, malt to water. It will only hold 34.21lbs of malt if diluted to 1:1.5 , malt to water. Math: 15.5 gallons equal 1984 ounces. 42 goes into 1984 47.24 times. When you mash in with 1.5 qts per lb you add 16 oz to 42, equals 58 and that goes into 1984 34.21 times. Wendell Ose, Reston, Va. - Return to table of contents
Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2002 08:15:30 -0700 From: "Tomusiak, Mark" <tomusiak at amgen.com> Subject: DeKoninck Recipe Shawn asks about a DeKoninck recipe. After many years of experimentation, I finally settled on a recipe that I am happy with, and these are the essential features: * 60/40 blend of pilsner and vienna malts, target gravity 1.048 * 1 - 2 oz chocolate for color, 1/2 lb of Biscuit (optional) * Saaz or Spalt for hops, three additions to around 30 IBU * Wyeast 1388 or White Labs 550 * Primary fermentation at 70 F, secondary at 40 F I think this beer is best served on draft. Make sure you get some authentic DeKoninck glasses to serve it in - I don't know if it's the glass or the beer, but every time I make this it leaves beautiful patterns of "belgian lace" down the sides of my glass. Prost, Mark Tomusiak Boulder, Colorado Return to table of contents
Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2002 11:45:35 -0400 (EDT) From: Pat Babcock <pbabcock at hbd.org> Subject: Posting to HBD from AOL... Greetings, Beerlings! Take me to your lager... During what appears to be the e-mail equivalent of a seance, Wendell says through Don: > I have trouble sending directly to HBD since I am on AOL I > think. If you think my info is worthy of HBD, please post. AOL is addressed in the FAQ on the hbd homepage (http://hbd.org), as are several other services and clients which need to be set in non-default ways to post to the HBD. For AOL users, unfortunately, AOL has determined what is best for you, and will not allow you to deviate from their vision of what YOU need. You cannot post to the HBD from your AOL mailbox as they do not provide you with the means to turn all the fancy crap off. To post to the HBD, go to Excite, Hotmail or Yahoo (presented in alphabetical order. We recommend no one over any of the others) and sign up for a free email account. Then, check the FAQ at http://hbd.org to learn how to use that free mail account to post to the HBD... - -- - God bless America! Pat Babcock in SE Michigan pbabcock at hbd.org Home Brew Digest Janitor janitor@hbd.org HBD Web Site http://hbd.org The Home Brew Page http://hbd.org/pbabcock [18, 92.1] Rennerian "I don't want a pickle. I just wanna ride on my motorsickle" - Arlo Guthrie Return to table of contents
Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2002 09:09:22 -0700 From: "Brian Schar" <schar at cardica.com> Subject: West Coast Stout Virtually all of my stouts would fall in this category. I have a hard time at competitions with them because they do not fall in either of the traditional stout categories. I have been thinking about entering them in the experimental category, as they don't fit anywhere else. Brian Schar Menlo Park, CA Return to table of contents
Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2002 09:22:28 -0700 From: Karen & Troy Hager <thager at smcoe.k12.ca.us> Subject: Post-Forced Carbonation Blues Fellow Brewers, Thanks for the outpouring of help for my post-forced carbonation blues. (Bill Frazier writes) Have you given the beer some time to > settle down after you carbonate it. The presence of CO2 in the beer will > change it's flavor. I find that even kegged beer benefits from some > resting time after you add CO2. Funny that you mentioned it Bill ... the last batch I did was an dort export and a week ago I tapped it. It had been on 15 psi for about 5 days. I also filled about 25 bottles with my counter pressure filler about a week ago too. When I tapped the beer I pulled out a bottle to compare the keg with the bottled and that is when they both had that familiar harsh bitter stale flavor that I spoke of in my post. Last night I was working in the yard and I pulled out one of the bottles and I was very surprised - It had changed quite a bit - and for the better. Many of those harsh flavors were not there and the stale oxidized flavors were very diminished as well. It had a nice malty aroma and, although it was not excellent, it was very drinkable. It did seem like there was an excess of harsh bitterness at the end though - too much for the low hopping I used on this - (19.5 IBUs from ProMash) and the soft water (80% RO + 20% soft tap water and noble hops (German Hallertauer Milelfruh and Hersbrucker). So I was pleasantly surprised. I will not have to throw this down the drain. It does seem like the beer needs some "settling down" time after carbonation as you say. I then sampled the keg and found the same changes were in the keg too. The only difference that I found was the beer from the keg did seem to have a slightly harsh CO2 aroma the diminished as the beer warmed and some of the gas was expelled. I am still convinced that there is some problem with my tank and regulator though. I have had too many beers suffer the "carbonation downturn". I will borrow a friends tank and regulator to test this out. It does seem that the beer benefits greatly from a couple weeks resting time after force carbonation. Thanks, Troy Return to table of contents
Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2002 12:24:52 -0400 From: Bill Wible <bill at brewbyyou.net> Subject: Re: West Coast Porter and Stout I'm a recognized beer judge in the Phila area. These categories, "West Coast Porter" and "West Coast Stout" have been suggested many times, both here and on judgenet. If enough people are brewing them, and it will mean more entries in our competitions, then I'm for it. My concerns are that: 1) We already have a number of categories now that draw about 3 entries each, and many categories where judge knowledge is lacking. Unless you've been to Germany, you've never had a real Altbier and are not qualified to judge one, no matter what you think. And how many people have brewed a Bier De Garde lately? I wonder how many of those were entered nationally last year. I'd hate to see another 3 beer category added, just to end up getting combined with other categories. There's alot of griping already about combined categories, and I'm on record as saying I don't think they're fair. Certain styles have inherent advantages over other styles, and will always win out in combined categories. 2) If we add these categories, how many more do people want? Can we add these 2 without adding categories for 'hard lemonade', or alcopops, which seem to be all the rage these days? How about stuff like Zima, which alot of folks have posted asking for the recipe for? People are brewing alof of stuff out there that we don't have categories for. How about Sake? It is one of the world's oldest brewed grain beverages, and the BJCP has no category for that. Yet mead and cider, which are brewed from fruit juice and honey, not grain - we have categories for those. How about we get our existing categories in order before we go adding new stuff? I don't necessarily think the BJCP needs to be jumping on every bandwagon that comes along. Bill Return to table of contents
Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2002 13:49:23 EDT From: Althelion at aol.com Subject: Just in time for the 4th of July A friend sent me this link to American Heritage Magazine's July 2002 edition: http://www.americanheritage.com/AMHER/2002/03/beer.shtml This is a great history of beer in America from colonial days to the present. Read this and go on and on about it to your spouse or significant other until they either fall asleep or leave the room. We are truly carrying on a wonderful American tradition. Homebrewing is, in fact, MORE AMERICAN than apple pie. Happy 4th of July. God Bless America. Al Pearlstein Commerce Township, Michigan Return to table of contents
Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2002 14:33:27 -0400 From: "Drew Avis" <andrew_avis at hotmail.com> Subject: MB RIMS Chamber RIMS-ers: Is anyone out there using the RIMS chamber from Moving Brews? I have a buddy who is building a RIMS system, and has been waiting for MB to come back on line. Having run out of patience, he's looking to build a chamber himself. Can anyone tell me what the chamber pipe diameter is? Thanks! Drew Avis ~ http://www.strangebrew.ca Return to table of contents
Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2002 12:50:22 -0700 (PDT) From: Rama Roberts <rama at eng.sun.com> Subject: gushing beer = contamination? A porter I bottled a bit more than 3 weeks ago has begun to gush out foam when I uncap them now, it seemed to be getting more and more violent with time- not sure if its topped out yet. It was a 5 gallon all grain batch, well aerated with a stone on a filtered pump, fermented around 70F. I used a yeast new to me (2 packs Windsor) and amylase enzyme during what appeared to be a stuck fermentation 2 days in. Its possible its contaminated- but there are no obvious off flavors I can detect in such a rich beer besides a slight sourness, and no neck rings (I have one clear bottle as a control). OG was 1.062, gravity at bottling 12 days later was 1.012 and *appeared* to have finished. The wort did 'decent' during a stability test, not great, not horrible. Questions: 1. should I be concerned with exploding bottles, if so, what's the easiest remedy if any? Release a bit of gas then immediately recap? 2. What's the most likely culprit? The enzyme addition causing over priming by allowing the beer to continue to ferment, contamination of some sort, something else? Rama Roberts confused in California Return to table of contents
Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2002 17:29:13 -0400 From: "Angie and Reif Hammond" <arhammond at attbi.com> Subject: Oat Malt Stout I have made oat malt stout before - 2lbs in a 5 gallon batch. I mashed at 152 and got that wonderful silky luscious mouth feel (don't know how else to describe it), so high temperatures (165) may not be required. I did get knocked down in competition for lack of head retention, but don't care - the mouthfeel makes up for it. I would like to make it again, but do not have a souce for small quantities. I bought a sackfull (25 kg) the first time, but it kept for less then a year. Once the oat malt was old, it no longer gave the wonderful mouthfeel. Does anyone have sources for oat malt? Thanks, Reif Hammond Durham, NH Return to table of contents
Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2002 22:32:00 -0000 From: "Crouch, Kevin E" <Crouch.Kevin at emeryworld.com> Subject: Response to Kegging and Oxidation There has been much angst in the digest about kegging as of late. These posts that describe costly, time-consuming safety measures are very thought-provoking but suggest a need to visit an important philosophy/theory about the source of oxidation in beer. One camp follows the logic of these posts, that oxygen is a remorseless killer, looking to strike whenever you let your guard down. You will spend hours and hours following exacting technique and then you will make that one fatal mistake, a leak in your siphon hose, a splash in your keg, over-aerating your wort. an exposed mash surface during lautering; then oxidation with strike your beer down before it ever had a chance to live. Others follow a more qualitative approach, where minimizing risk of oxygenation at the most crucial moments will yield a stable product no matter how poorly you handle it at the later stages. I personally have found this to be the case. I have never had oxidation in my kegged beer or my bottled beer (even pressure filled ones) and I am far from paranoid about keeping it away from oxygen during the latter stages. I siphon wide open, I splash my beer into the keg and I never fill the whole thing with CO2 before filling it. The one precaution I do take is purging it with CO2 before I pressurize it. The most salient point that I can make is that oxidation is a systemic problem rather than peripheral problem. What I mean by this is that at certain points in the brewing process, notably while the wort is hot, the generation of free radical oxidizers will dramatically reduce the stability of your beer. Your beer becomes an "At Risk" beer just waiting for the right conditions to let loose the terror of oxidation, like a cancer, free radicals oxidize other highly reactive compounds making them free radicals, and these then, in the absence of any powerful reducing agents, will continue the reaction out of control until your beer tastes like moldy cardboard. In some cases, the beer is ruined before the wort is ever boiled. Wort produced under optimal conditions will, on the other hand, have a wealth of powerful reducing agents in the healthy melanoidins and organic acids in the hops. This is what is referred to as "stable beer" regarding oxidation. Once you've added the yeast to it, You simply cannot add enough oxygen under normal homebrewing conditions to overcome the anti-oxidant capacity of your beer. If you create a marginally stable beer from the beginning, oxidation at later stages might be enough to push this reaction in favor of oxidation. Kegs are porous so they allow exchange with the air, so even the best-handled unstable beer will eventually react with oxygen, while those put in bottles will remain fresh. In my experience, STABLE beer that has excessive exposure to oxygen will most likely result in musty, winey flavors, from the oxidation of esters and residual sugars, rather than the cardboard flavors associated with free radical oxidation of melanoidins. So how do you create a stable wort from the beginning? The answer is alive in these threads already. Start with a quiet mash, don't stir the heck out of it! Not only will you ruin your filter bed but you'll introduce free radicals into your wort. Don't splash the wort - EVER - when its hot. This doesn't take much effort, just minimize the amount of transferring you do. Long hot boils (90 minutes) will increase melanoidins, powerful antioxidants, and provide many other benefits to your beer that I won't go into. Make sure your wort is below 75 degrees when you rack to your primary and cool it even more if you can before you aerate it. If you take extreme care with your wort at these crucial stages, you can relax with it later on and enjoy many months of fresh, kegged beer. Your comments, objections, sympathies, are welcome. Kevin Crouch Vancouver, Washington "Chance favors the prepared mind" -Alexander Fleming Return to table of contents
Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2002 18:40:59 -0500 From: Bill Tobler <wctobler at sbcglobal.net> Subject: RE: newbie questions Welcome to the HBD Peter. We're always looking for new blood, umm, I mean readers. I live in Texas, so I can't help you with homebrew clubs and local homebrew shops in Canada. I've never bought anything from Paddock Woods, but I have heard of them and none of that was bad. No news is usually good news. Buying stuff online is a great convenience, especially if your LHBS is too far to drive. I have 3 temperature controllers, two Johnson controllers and one two stage digital controller by Ranco. If you are an electronic type person, I guess you could build one, but me thinks it is much easier to buy one. If the temperature where the fridge is going to be is steady and generally above the temperature you will be controlling the fridge at, the Johnson controller will work fine. They usually run about $50 US. More Beer has these at http://www.morebeer.com/ So does Paddock Woods, at http://www.paddockwood.com/catalog_equipment_thermo.html Most other on-line Homebrew Shops carry them also. If its warm in the days and cold at night, you might be better off with a two stage Ranco digital electronic controller. I believe the model number is ETC-211000-000. This controller will turn the fridge on/off when its warm outside, and then when the temp drops outside and the fridge drops below your controlling temperature, it will turn a small heater on/off that you put inside the fridge. A good heater to use would be a small ceramic heater used to keep pet lizards warm. I think they screw into a light bulb socket. I do have one question for you though, what the devil is a BOP? Cheers Bill Tobler Lake Jackson, TX (1129.7, 219.9) Apparent Rennerian Return to table of contents
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