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	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
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Contents:
  Re:  re:  Indoor Boiling (Teresa Knezek)
  Sankey Anti-Tamper Work Around (Ryan Neily)
  aquarium heater fermentation safety ("Tom & Dana Karnowski")
  salvaging ("David Craft")
  cooling fermenters (very low tech] (Darrell.Leavitt)
  RE: Indoor Boiling ("Dan Gross")
  re: Cooling Off the Wort (Jonathan Royce)
  Keeping a Fermenter Cool (Kevin White)
  Stoney Creek Vanilla Porter (stewart.pounds)
  re: indoor boiling (Randy Ricchi)
  Iron, Sodium ("A.J. deLange")
  Re: CAN this error be fixed??? (David Towson)
  Re: Fixing excess iron problems (Jeff Renner)
  Re: Indoor boiling... (Matt Schultz)
  primed w/malt-dextrin by accident (Randy Ricchi)
  Re: Where do you brew? (Mark Kempisty)
  CAN this error be fixed??? (Leo Vitt)
  Chloramine/Zinc ("A.J. deLange")
  chloramines/chlorine/Campden Tabs, RO chlorine, maltodextrin carbonation ("Dave Burley")
  re: Indoor Boiling (Jason Poll)
  Zn toxicity (Alan Meeker)
  Brewing outside of the box... (Pat Babcock)
  Re: repackaging hops ("Mark Kellums")
  re: priming lambics (Scott Perfect)
  RE: indoor brewing (Brian Lundeen)
  Hops growing (Michael Hartsock)
  RE: Fixing excess iron problems ("Mike Sharp")
  dan listermann ("Mike Racette")
  Brewing inside (Beaverplt)
  Re: Carmel (sic) Porter (Kent Fletcher)
  Cooling off the wort ("Jason Lindner")
  Re: Indoor Boiling (Matthew Arnold)
  Yarrow in beer ("nlkanous ")


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Date: Mon, 07 Apr 2003 21:08:56 -0900
From: Teresa Knezek <teresa at mivox.com>
Subject: Re:  re:  Indoor Boiling

On or thereabout 4/8/03, Barrett, Bob (R.A.) spoke thusly:
>We live in Ann Arbor, Michigan.  We're not exactly the
>tropical paradise of the Great Lakes!!!  The average highs on those days
>were 26.88F and the average lows were 14.36F.

Har, Har... Bwahahaha... Hooooboy! Nice balmy winter ya got there! :-)

Up here, the average temps during that time were all below zero, but 
since it only got down to a max of around 20 below (OK, I think it 
hit -30 once this year), it was nice weather!

>What about the rest of the loyal HBD followers??  Do you
>brew inside or outside??

Inside. I didn't start brewing until this winter, so that's the only 
way I've ever done it (once I got the big burner... before that I did 
two all-grain batches split between two pots on my propane stovetop. 
Not recommended.)

Got an attached garage, and I set up my propane burner and crack the 
overhead garage door about 6 inches. Works well. Propane sinks, heat 
rises, so most of the heat stays in, and presumably, the propane can 
get out. Haven't passed out during a boil yet. AND, since it's just a 
cement floor, I don't even have to hover around watching for 
boil-overs...

If I had to set up in a basement, I'd install an industrial-strength 
oven hood vent right above where I was setting up the boiler, and 
make sure I had a window to crack open to replace the air the vent 
sucked out.
- -- 
::Teresa : Two Rivers, Alaska::
[2849, 325] Apparent Rennerian

"It has been my experience that folks who
have no vices have very few virtues."
                      -- Abraham Lincoln


Return to table of contents


Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2003 01:11:32 -0400 (EDT)
From: Ryan Neily <ryan at neily.net>
Subject: Sankey Anti-Tamper Work Around


I have a couple of Sankey kegs that I would like to use for kegging
however, I have found that the anti-tamper thing that keeps the valve and
rod in place is a bugger to get out and put back in.

I did see the Kegman conversion kit for the sankey kegs, but it looks a
little expensive at $8.95 for a snap-ring and OEM o-ring.  Do this kit
work well?

Does anyone have an easier way to hold the valve/rod in while still
keeping a fair amount of pressure on the gasket to make the keg air tight?
(Places to order or specs on the hardware would be great as well)

I am sure this has been asked here many times before, but I couldn't find
any mention of it in the Archives...

- -- 
Ryan Neily
ryan at neily.net

Random Quote:
After the last of 16 mounting screws has been removed from an access
cover, it will be discovered that the wrong access cover has been removed.


Return to table of contents


Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2003 05:09:39 -0400
From: "Tom & Dana Karnowski" <karnowsk at esper.com>
Subject: aquarium heater fermentation safety

I am dealing with too cool fermentation temperatures in my basement.  The
coming of spring & summer will solve much of this in the next few months,
but in the mean time I need a solution sooner so I can ferment a wheat beer
and get some good banana notes from it.

I have seen that some folks place their fermenters in a tub of some sort,
fill it with water, and use an aquarium heater.  I would like to try this
but I am a little nervous about safety.  I don't want to endanger my family
simply to get a better beer.

I have a 100 watt aquarium heater that I will set in a Rubbermaid type
storage bin.  Those bins are pretty tough but they ARE plastic, and were not
really designed for this application.  In my mind, I worry that worst case
the heater, which is stuck to the side of the bin, will melt the plastic,
drain out all the water, then burn up and cause a horrible conflagration.

So...

Can anyone else assure me that this is a fairly safe practice?  I realize no
one can say 100% "it won't cause any problems" but you can say "I've been
doing this for years and I have been fine".

Is a 100 watt heater overdoing it? Guidelines suggest 5 watts per gallon and
the tub is maybe 10 gallons, I think, but is it ok to go bigger?

Finally, where do you put the tub? I will put mine in a bathtub, initially,
but I may need to move it to another location at some point.

Thanks
Tom Karnowski
Knoxville TN




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Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2003 06:46:50 -0400
From: "David Craft" <chsyhkr at bellsouth.net>
Subject: salvaging

Michele,

Welcome to the world of home.  Be glad you did not mix up your sanitizer
with your priming sugar.

These bottles will keep until you can get some Primetabs, little corn sugar
pills.  They work great.  Open the bottles and put them in.  If there is
any carbonation already, cool the bottles down real good before starting.
These pills can cause foaming, so have a friend to cap them right back.

Good luck.

David Craft

PS-  I don't think the malto-dextrine will be that noticeable in such a
small quantity.



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Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2003 06:43:33 -0400
From: Darrell.Leavitt at esc.edu
Subject: cooling fermenters (very low tech]

Dave;
I use a plastic trashcan, filled 1/2 way up with water,...add ice in the
morning, keep in the darkest/ coolest part of the house, draw off water in
eve, add ice...it seems to resist the normal swings of ambient
temperature...and up north here we can make lagers w/o chest freezers...

Happy Brewing!

 ..Darrell
    Plattsburgh, NY: 44 41 58 N Latitude
                    73 27 12 W Longitude
 [544.9 miles, 68.9]Apparent Rennerian





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Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2003 06:57:17 -0400
From: "Dan Gross" <degross at starpower.net>
Subject: RE: Indoor Boiling

In response to Bob's survey on indoor vs. outdoor boiling:

I began boiling outdoors two years ago when we moved to this house and I
discovered the old stove would not accomodate my kettle.  I enjoy boiling
outdoors except in the rain since my outdoor brew area is a concrete pad in
the back without a cover.  I find that I have to plan my brew days based on
the weather report which I watch carefully a week in advance while preparing
the yeast started in the hopes that the two will coincide favorably.
My next home improvement may be a structure to cover the brew area.

Dan Gross
Olney, Md



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Date: Tue,  8 Apr 2003 04:42:06 -0700
From: Jonathan Royce <jonathan at woodburybrewingco.com>
Subject: re: Cooling Off the Wort 

Dave Larsen asked about cooling off his fermenter in the desert. 

Dave: 

Have you seen Ken Schwartz's Son-of-a-Fermentation chiller? It is exactly 
intended for what you want to do: chill a fermenter in the desert heat 
and not spend a lot on electricity. 

http://home.elp.rr.com/brewbeer/chiller/chiller.html 

I built a similar device (a sort-of hybrid chiller/heater) for fermenting 
outdoors in NH. That can be seen here: 

http://www.woodburybrewingco.com/FTC.html 

You had mentioned the idea of cooling using a water bath and fan. Before 
building the "box", I used to use a water bath to help minimize the effect 
of my home's programmable thermostats, which raise and lower the temperature 
of the house about 15F twice a day. 

http://www.woodburybrewingco.com/Fermenter%20in%20Water%20Jacket.jpg 

I did get a bit of scaling on the outside of my glass fermenter, but mainly 
just at the water/air interface. So I think your idea would work, but it 
would probably require some ice additions throughout the course of the 
fermentation to keep the bath temperature low enough to be effective. 

HTH, 


Jonathan
Woodbury Brewing Co.
www.woodburybrewingco.com


Return to table of contents


Date: Tue, 08 Apr 2003 07:59:22 -0400
From: Kevin White <kwhite at bcpl.net>
Subject: Keeping a Fermenter Cool

Dave Larsen asks, "Does anybody have a good, cost effective, 
low-tech way to cool their fermentors?"

I place my carboys in a shallow plastic tub (about 4 inches deep) 
  and fill the tub with lightly chlorinated water. I fully wet a 
bath towel (one of those that has been banned from family use by 
SWMBO) and wrap it around the carboy, with the bottom edge 
resting in the tub water. Evaporation and capillary action keep 
the carboys at a relatively stable 65F in my furnace room in the 
summer. And, the towel wrapped around the carboy protects the 
contents from stray light. I add water about every second or 
third day, usually by pouring it around the neck of the carboy.

I live in the humid mid-Atlantic part of the US; you may want to 
monitor the temperature you can achieve because the arid desert 
environment will raise the evaporation rate and lower the 
temperature. (In the Fall the humidity drops and, by around 
Thanksgiving, this method drops my fermenter temperature to about 
55F.)

Kevin White
Columbia, MD



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Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2003 08:02:06 -0400
From: stewart.pounds at gm.com
Subject: Stoney Creek Vanilla Porter

Has anyone tried to clone Stoney Creeks Vanilla Porter? My wife and I was
there a couple of weeks ago and it, it was great and I'd like to make
something close to it. I thought I could just add Vanilla flavor to a
porter recipe something like I do with my Hazelnut Porter, but from what
I've found on the web it looks like everyone is using Vanilla beans to
flavor there beers. Any help would be greatly appreciated i.e. grain bills
, or processes. As usual private E-mail is fine.
Thanks,
Stu
stewart.pounds at gm.com





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Date: Tue, 08 Apr 2003 08:13:02 -0400
From: Randy Ricchi <rricchi at houghton.k12.mi.us>
Subject: re: indoor boiling

Bob Barrett said:
"We live in Ann Arbor, Michigan.  We're not exactly the tropical
paradise of the Great Lakes!!!

Umm, yes you are, Bob.

Randy Ricchi
Hancock, Michigan
Where we STILL have about 2 feet of F#%!$ng snow on the ground!!!!!!



Return to table of contents


Date: Tue, 08 Apr 2003 13:04:17 +0000
From: "A.J. deLange" <ajdel at cox.net>
Subject: Iron, Sodium

Some well waters contain fair amounts of iron - it depends on the 
subterranean geology in your region. There is no primary limit for iron 
as far as the drinking water act is concerned but there is a secondary 
limit of 0.3 mg/L (secondary limits are those above which the water is 
considered aesthetically displeasing). For brewers a more practical 
limit is 0.1 mg/L. Fortunately iron is relatively easy to deal with. The 
first step is to make sure that it is all in the Fe(III) state and this 
is done either by  the use of an oxidizing agent (typically potassium 
permanganate - this is what most chemical based iron filters use) or 
exposure to the oxygen in air by aeration. If the water contains mostly 
Fe(II) "clear water iron" aeration will turn it milky. If it is already 
cloudy then much or most of the iron is Fe(III). Given that the iron has 
all been oxidized to the Fe(III) state it will form the insoluble 
hydroxide, Fe(OH)3 which can be filtered out.

For treating brewing quantities of water simple but thorough aeration 
will usually do the job. The oxygen in the air converts Fe(II) and the 
process also sparges out the CO2 which is responsible for the low pH 
often associated with well water. Spray the water through a nozzle or 
shower head or pour it back and forth between two containers from an 
appreciable height. Then put a few inches of clean sand (sandbox stuff 
from Home Depot) into the bottom of a polyethylene lauter bucket (lots 
of little holes in the bottom) and pour the water into this (or spray it 
if you used a sprayer). The top of the sand should pick up an ugly brown 
stain - this is the ferric hydroxide gel. The water collected from 
beneath the bucket should be clear and free of iron to below 0.1 mg/L. 
The sand can be washed and used again. Simple and relatively inexpensive 
test kits for iron are available from Hach (www. hach.com) and other 
suppliers. These can be used to check pre and post treatment levels of 
total iron as well as Fe(II) and Fe(III) separately if desired.

If a whole house solution is desired then consult the local water 
treatment supply house. They can equip you with either aeration type 
(air injection system with greensand bed filter which is automatically 
back washed periodically) or, where the iron load is too great, systems 
which use permanganate. In either, addition of chemicals for pH 
adjustment may be required from time to time. Barring this, the air 
injection type is obviously to be preferred as no chemicals are required.

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * 
* * * *

Some Campden tablets are potassium metabite and some are sodium. It's 
the metabite that does the job so it doesn't matter from the chloramine 
POV which is used. In either case the amount of the alkali metal ion 
added to the water is small. Per mg/L of choramine the amount of 
potassium added is 1.1 mg/L when the potassium salt is added and with 
the sodium salt it is 0.65 mg/L. Thus if the water contained 3 mg/L 
chloramine the use of sufficient sodium metabite to neutralize it would 
result in an increase of about 2 mg/L in the sodium content of the 
water. This should be unappreciable relative to the 11 - 16 mg/L already 
present in Sydney water.

A.J.




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Date: Tue, 08 Apr 2003 09:10:57 -0400
From: David Towson <dtowson at comcast.net>
Subject: Re: CAN this error be fixed???

In HBD 4215, Michele Maatta laments accidentally using malto dextrin to 
prime some beer, and hopes for a fix.

Pop the caps, put in the appropriate amount of corn sugar, and recap.  If 
you've followed proper sanitation procedures all along, I doubt you'll be 
able to tell the difference.  But since you'll have to put the sugar in 
dry, you might have to wait a little longer than usual for it to get into 
solution so the yeast can get to it.  You could give each bottle a good 
shake after recapping to help dissolve the sugar, but that would risk 
driving into the beer whatever Oxygen is in the headspace.  Probably better 
to just be patient.

Dave in Bel Air, Maryland



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Date: Tue, 08 Apr 2003 09:17:12 -0400
From: Jeff Renner <jeffrenner at comcast.net>
Subject: Re: Fixing excess iron problems

"Mike Sharp" <rdcpro at hotmail.com> wrote:

>Usually, it's an old steel well casing that's responsible for excess 
>iron, but yours is new...unless you have iron pipe in your house 
>distribution.  That might be worth looking into...

Could you say more about this?  It certainly does not seem to be the 
case in this part of the country - iron is simply a natural part of 
the ground water, and I think this is common elsewhere.

Jeff
- -- 
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, JeffRenner at comcast.net
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943


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Date: Tue, 08 Apr 2003 08:35:57 -0500
From: Matt Schultz <matt.schultz at tds.net>
Subject: Re: Indoor boiling...

Mike,

A buddy of mine and I have recently completed our homebrewer's setup in my
basement here in Madison, WI. It's a 20x10 foot room in my house that I
built myself. It's nice when one has an unfinished basement, and a wife that
likes homebrewed beer enough to give me the freedom to build something like
this. To make it a little easier to deal with all the condensation I removed
part of the basement wall and installed a 4x4 foot egress window. When the
condensation gets really bad, we flip a switch on a fan that exhausts the
moisture out of this window.

Hope this helps!

Matt Schultz





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Date: Tue, 08 Apr 2003 09:43:41 -0400
From: Randy Ricchi <rricchi at houghton.k12.mi.us>
Subject: primed w/malt-dextrin by accident

Michele,
The malto dextrin won't hurt anything, it will just add body to the
beer. However, it won't ferment and carbonate your beer, either. At this
point, you will need to uncap your bottles, and prime them one-by-one
with either primetabs, or if you don't have any of those, sanitize a
small measuring spoon and use your corn sugar. Personally, I use regular
sucrose for priming.
Someone recently posted to the HBD how much corn sugar per bottle to
use. Was it Dave Burley? Do a little search of the past few weeks and
you should find it.



Return to table of contents


Date: Tue, 08 Apr 2003 10:02:32 -0400
From: Mark Kempisty <kempisty at pav.research.panasonic.com>
Subject: Re: Where do you brew?

Bob Barrett asks:

What about the rest of the loyal HBD followers??  Do you
brew inside or outside??


I-I-I-i-i  b-b-b-brew o-o-out-s-s-side.
AAAAAAAAACCCHHHOOOOOooooooooo.....

- --
Take care,
Mark





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Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2003 07:23:43 -0700 (PDT)
From: Leo Vitt <leo_vitt at yahoo.com>
Subject: CAN this error be fixed???


Michele  asked about recovering from an error with priming:

>OH, I am sitting here near tears because I bottled and primed 10 
>gallons of 
>wonderful homebrew last week.  5 gallons of an outstanding Hefeweisen,

>and 
>5 gallons of a  Bud Clone for my friends who "really" don't like 
>beer.  Much to my horror, in my recent inheritance of another friend's

>brewing supplies, I realized I used malto dextrin rather than corn 
>sugar as 
>priming sugar.  I am a fairly new brewer and wonder if there are some 
>well 
>seasoned ones that can offer a suggestion?

Michele, I had a time when the priming surgar was not added.
I and my partner finished bottling and started to clean everything
up and discovered the priming surgar was still in the pyrex
measuring cup I used to boil it (with water) in the microwave.

I should mention to make sure everyone knows -- malto dextren is
unfermentable by beer yeast.  So, it won't produce carbonation,
assuming there is not some sort of microbe present that can ferment 
it.  It's purpose in brewing is to add body to beer.

It took a little work, but this is how I did it.
1) Calculate the number of teaspoons of liquid I had.  The priming
   surgar water that is not the beer.
2) Divide that number by the number of bottles.  I think it came
   out to be close to 1 1/8 tsp per bottle.
3) Remove caps from all of the bottles.
4) Add that 1 1/8 tsp of surgar water to each bottle.  Some were so 
   full I could see it would not fit.  I had to poor a little of the
   beer out of the bottle to make room.
5) Recap bottles.

The beer did carbonate.

In my case it was not a beginner mistake.  I had at least 50 batches
behind me.  It was more of a slip in routine.

 - Leo


=====
Leo Vitt
Sidney, NE



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Date: Tue, 08 Apr 2003 14:25:19 +0000
From: "A.J. deLange" <ajdel at cox.net>
Subject: Chloramine/Zinc

For Doug: The reaction between chlorine and bisulfite is:

S2O5-2  + 4Cl + 3H2O --> 2SO4-2 + 6H+  + 4 Cl-

With mono chloramine it is:

S2O5-2 + 2H2NCl + 3H2O --> 2SO4-2 + 2H+ + 2Cl- + 2NH4+

In either case the bisulfite is oxidized to sulfate and the clorine, 
while it is not "removed",  is reduced to chloride ion.

This method of removing chlorine has been used by aquarists for years 
(though they use thiosulfate rather than bisulfite). With the advent of 
chloramine they must be sure to have an effective means of removing the 
ammonium ion/ammonia that is produced. It's a simple thing to check out. 
Draw a glass of stinky chlorinated or chloraminated water and drop in 
the corner of a Campden tablet. The chlorine smell will be gone very 
quickly (to be replaced, perhaps, with a sulfur dioxide smell so only 
use the tiniest bit of the tablet - one tablet  should treat 40 gallons 
of water containing 3 mg/L chloramine.

No water authority would ever intentionally raise its product's pH to as 
high as 10. The limit is 8.5 in most (international) jurisdictions. 
Furthermore, such high pH's are to be avoided because they would usually 
lead to rapid occlusion of the distribution mains. Nor are they 
necessary. At pH 9  90 - 100% of chloramines are monochloramine. Most 
water authorities that chloraminate release water with pH's between 6.5 
and 8.5. As monochloramine that converts to dichloramine at lower pH 
cannot escape (the chloramine is usually formed as the water enters the 
distribution system) you do not have continuous conversion of 
monochloramine followed by subsequent loss and further conversion.


While zinc at too high a level is a curse for yeast (and a low levels a 
blessing as an enzyme co factor) the main concern with high zinc levels 
is for the humans in the house. High levels of zinc in well water were 
frequently caused by corrosion of a brass bushing in the pump. The 
problem was that this alloy also contained lead so that if one saw high 
levels of zinc (easy to test for though it does involve a cyanide salt) 
it often implied lead was present. Zinc can, of course, come from other 
sources such as galvanized pipe and by now all the brass fittings in 
wells should have been retrofitted. If, however, you have a well with an 
old pump and plastic pipe in the ground and copper in the house I'd 
consult your local well people and/or have a lead test done. If zinc 
isn't an idicator for lead then there is little to worry about as the 
MCL is 5 mg/L - lots more than you want for breweing but the health 
people are unconcerned.

Getting zinc out may be a little tricky. You could try running the pH up 
to 11 or so with slaked lime. This should precipitate zinc hydroxide (it 
will definitely precipitate magnesium hydroxide, and if you have 
temporary hardness, some calcium carbonate). Decant the supernatant and 
bring pH back to a nominal pH level by bubbling air through the water. 
This will take some time if you are treating a large volume of water as 
there isn't much CO2 in air. Use of CO2 will speed the process but you'd 
probably waste a fair amount. Note that this is a way in which the high 
alkalinity  caused by use of lime can be neutralized without adverse 
flavor effect. The CO2 reacts with calcium hydroxide thus

Ca++  + 2(OH)- + CO2 + H2O  --> CaCO3 + 2H2O

and, of course, the CaCO3 precipitates. Decant again.

I've never tried to remove zinc from brewing water in this way but I can 
attest that flecks of gelatinous precipitate form at high pH in a 
solution containing zinc ions. Unless you have a means of checking pH 
and some experience with what DeClerk calls the "split treatment" of 
water (see HBD archives) for removal of magnesium and carbonate simple 
dilution with spring, RO or distilled water might be more practical.



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Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2003 10:27:29 -0400
From: "Dave Burley" <Dave_Burley at charter.net>
Subject: chloramines/chlorine/Campden Tabs, RO chlorine, maltodextrin carbonation

Brewsters:

Doug Moller emphatically states that Campden Tablets will not remove
chloramines and chlorine and that the water supply pH is boosted to pH 10 with
slaked lime to stabilize the chloramines.

Unless, I misread or misunderstood your comments they are incorrect.  I don't
know the kinetics of the reaction and it may take place only on the acid side
of pH = 7 , but there is definitely a reaction between chlorine and
chloramines and sulfite.  This would take place as the brewing liquor went
acidic.

Frankly, I am no public water supply expert, by any means, but  I doubt the
water supply is pH 10 coming out of the tap, if that is what you meant. Maybe
others can confirm or deny.
- ---------------------
Mike Sharp comments that chlorine can damage RO filters.  That may well be the
case , but RO is used with chlroinated supplies. In low concentrations and for
a short exposure, which my supplier recommends, it doesn't seem to be a
problem.  Also, the chlorinated water is not consumed, as the RO is allowed to
run to flush out the contents before consumption. I'm sure not all membranes
are identical, and like I said, follow your manufacturer's directions.  I did.

- -------------------
Michelle added malto dextrin instead of dextrose to carbonate her beer.  Not a
problem as this is a relatively small amount of MD.  Just add the amount of
sugar as a syrup needed for carbonation to each bottle and recap.

Keep on Brewin'

Dave Burley




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Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2003 10:40:05 -0400 (EDT)
From: Jason Poll <jtpoll at mtu.edu>
Subject: re: Indoor Boiling

Bob in Ann Arbor chastized Mike in Madison for not brewing outside:

> Come on Mike!!!!!  Don't be a "we knee"!!!  Brewing outside in the
 ...
> Brew outside!!!!  What about the rest of the loyal HBD followers??  Do
> you brew inside or outside??

Just wanted to add my name to the list of those in Michigan who brew
outside -- I'm just at the opposite end of the state compared to Bob. I
live in the Keweenaw peninsula of Michigan, and I've brewed outside for
all but one of my brews this winter. I'd say the average HIGH temp
of all those brews was _maybe_ around 20, but probably lower, and yes, we
still have about about 2 feet of snow on the ground. :-(  Highs in the
50's this week, though! Yippee!

Such low temps and any breeze/wind don't help with getting 10+ gallons up
to a full boil, so I've built a very simple wind shield out of 3 (or is it
4?) foot flashing material. Just a simple ring around the brew pot and
burner, lifted off the ground about and inch or so.  It works wonders! 
Hopefully I'll be moving to a house with a brewery, err, garage soon, so I
may not have to worry about the wind as much anymore...although the
'heat-jacket' like  effect of the wind shield may make it a permanent
addition to my brewery equipment. :-)

Anyway, brew-on!

		--Jason




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Date: Tue, 08 Apr 2003 10:35:02 -0400
From: Alan Meeker <ameeker at mail.jhmi.edu>
Subject: Zn toxicity

Doug asks:

I received my water test from the J R Peters testing lab and my zinc is at 2
ppm. I have read that anywhere from .5 to 1 ppm is toxic to yeast. I have
made beer with the water as is and had no fermentation problems and even
stored yeast on slants and slurry from long periods of time without any
problems. If I do find it is a problem in the future how can I get rid of
the zinc?

>Doug, this isn't even /close/ to being toxic (as your own experience
indicates). Don't worry about it!

 -Alan Meeker



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Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2003 10:55:01 -0400 (EDT)
From: Pat Babcock <pbabcock at hbd.org>
Subject: Brewing outside of the box... 

Greetings, Beerigns! Take me to your lager...

Sir Bob of  Barrett spake thusly:

> Brew outside!!!!  What about the rest of the loyal HBD followers??  Do
> you brew inside or outside??

Way back in the day, when I actually had TIME for such thing, I
brewd outside, either on the driveway, or, on those too hot
sunny days, on the porch. Then I moved it into the garage when I
built my brewing rack into its rear wall. (Now, it is a
conversation piece for those who stop by, since it ain't "back
in the day" no more...)

And to my friend Jim, who undoubtedly lurking nearby, I must
say: you brew "Pat Stout" better than Pat do. Mmmm, mmm!

- -- 
 -
God bless America!

Pat Babcock in SE Michigan         pbabcock at hbd.org
Home Brew Digest Janitor           janitor@hbd.org
HBD Web Site                       http://hbd.org
The Home Brew Page                 http://hbd.org/pbabcock
[18, 92.1] Rennerian
"I don't want a pickle. I just wanna ride on my motorsickle"
                                   - Arlo Guthrie




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Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2003 10:15:51 -0500
From: "Mark Kellums" <infidel at springnet1.com>
Subject: Re: repackaging hops

In HBD 4214, Doug Moyer asks for suggestions on repackaging whole hops for
a club bulk buy.

Doug,
I've also been using a Tilia Foodsaver of one type or another since 1992. It
does a fantastic job of helping keep your fresh hops fresh. Besides vacuum
packing in bags I'm also able to vacuum pack in jars using the jar
attachment. I just finished off a nice APA in which '99 and '00 crop
Cascades were
used.

I use the Foodsaver to vacuum pack specialty grains in jars also.

Mark Kellums
Decatur Il.



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Date: Tue, 08 Apr 2003 08:19:46 -0700
From: Scott Perfect <perfect at marzen.llnl.gov>
Subject: re: priming lambics

In HBD 4211, Don asked about bottling a p-lambic:

"My question is how much priming sugar would be good for  the 'methode
champenoise'.  I am planning to use champagne bottles with plastic
stoppers,
wire, etc. Just a guess from past bottling experiences, about a cup of
corn sugar?
Perhaps I should consider kraesening.
Anyone with experience in this area?"

I have had success using a cup of DME. Allow about two months for
the carbonation to develop. Corn sugar is more likely to be consumed
by bacteria, leaving you without much carbonation.

Incidently, this forum has adopted the term pseudo-lambic (p-lambic) for

attempts at the style made outside the traditional region around
Brussels,
Belgium.

Scott A. Perfect
San Ramon, CA



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Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2003 10:40:05 -0500 
From: Brian Lundeen <BLundeen at rrc.mb.ca>
Subject: RE: indoor brewing

Bob Barrett writes from the relative balminess of Michigan:

> Come on Mike!!!!!  Don't be a "we knee"!!!  Brewing outside 
> in the winter is fun!!!!  My wife and I brewed six 
> consecutive weekends this year starting on January 11!!!!  We 
> live in Ann Arbor, Michigan.  We're not exactly the 
> tropical paradise of the Great Lakes!!!  The average highs on 
> those days 
> were 26.88F and the average lows were 14.36F.  Get some fresh 
> air!!! Brew outside!!!!  What about the rest of the loyal HBD 
> followers??  Do you brew inside or outside??

Fresh air my Aspartame! With a typical winter high of -20C (that's about 4
below for the measurement system challenged), that's just a bit too bruddy
fresh for me! On a really cold day, the only thing undergoing a rolling boil
was my temperament.

I've switched to indoor brewing, either with my 6000W electric kettle in the
basement, or doing concentrated boils on my kitchen cook top. And I think
I'm going to abandon the latter because I just don't believe it is giving me
the quality I want. 

The big rig NEEDS venting. The only thing that keeps the basement from
becoming a sauna is I set it up to run in the house stairwell. The other two
floors get well humidified, but the basement stays livable. Gotta work on a
venting solution. SWMBO is not a happy camper on brew days, I'll tell you.

Cheers
Brian Lundeen
Brewing at [819 miles, 313.8 deg] aka Winterpeg


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Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2003 09:01:55 -0700 (PDT)
From: Michael Hartsock <xd_haze at yahoo.com>
Subject: Hops growing

To anyone who grows hops:

I live in missouri, and i put my hops rhizomes out at
the beginning of april, the weather here was in the
70s and it looked like spring was here.  This week the
daytime high is in the 40s, and the lows are dipping
below freezing.  my hops had little starts when i
planted them.  

did I kill my rhyzomes?  Am I out of luck for this
season? and order more to try again?

michael

=====
"May those who love us, love us.
And those that don't love us,
May God turn their hearts.
And if he doesn't turn their hearts,
may he turn their ankles
So we'll know them
by their limping."



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Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2003 10:45:56 -0700
From: "Mike Sharp" <rdcpro at hotmail.com>
Subject: RE: Fixing excess iron problems

Jeff Renner asks for clarification on my posting about fixing excess iron
problems

>Usually, it's an old steel well casing that's responsible for excess
>iron, but yours is new...unless you have iron pipe in your house 
>distribution.  That might be worth looking into...

"Could you say more about this?  It certainly does not seem to be the 
case in this part of the country - iron is simply a natural part of 
the ground water, and I think this is common elsewhere."

I don't doubt there are plenty of places where there is iron dissolved in
the aquifer.  However, I think world-wide, the main cause of iron in
drinking water is from steel or iron piping systems, including old well
casings.  New casings are plastic (at least the ones I've seen).  Most of my
water and wastewater experience is on the US west coast, and in a number of
coastal and maritime environments elsewhere (by maritime, I mean way out at
sea!).  My information comes from a couple of technical books on the subject
of water treatment, and my own experience.

In any case, it probably doesn't matter where the iron comes from; it's in
the OP's water, and should be removed.  Manganese green sand filtration is
the way to do that.  


Regards,
Mike Sharp



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Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2003 12:38:23 -0600
From: "Mike Racette" <mike.racette at hydro-gardens.com>
Subject: dan listermann

Yesterday Stephen Hetrick posted:

I would like to publicly thank Mr. Listermann for a
special favor.  I posted on his site that I had lost
one of the plugs for my sparger (during its first use,
no less...).  I wanted to know where I could get a
replacement, and Mr. Listermann asked for my mailing
address.

Less than a week later I received 4 replacement plugs
from him.  He did this without asking for any kind of
compensation for the postage.  Needless to say, he
just gained a customer for life.

Once again, thank you!


Hmmm... this same exact thing happened to me (except not with the first use)
and I also swore allegiance as a customer for life. You don't  suppose
 .........................nah!



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Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2003 12:54:21 -0700 (PDT)
From: Beaverplt <beaverplt at yahoo.com>
Subject: Brewing inside

Mike in Madison asks about brewing inside and Bob from
Ann Arbor asks what the rest of us do. I'm mostly a
lurker, but I have to chime in here. 

Bob, I have to wonder if Ann Arbor somehow was
relocated to Montana, Wyoming or (gasp) the Upper
Peninsula. What you do sounds more like survivalist
brewing. The next thing we know the FBI, CIA and the
DEA will be invading your compound because you brewed
something so radical as a CAP or IPA. 

I've been comfortable brewing in my kitchen as long as
I've been brewing. I don't know if it's still there,
but SWMBO and I bought a used commercial stove from a
place that deals in used restaurant equipment that is
located in Galena, Illinois. 
Mike, I don't know what scale you brew at, but the
BTU's on what I have are more than enough for the 5
gallon batches I tend to do.
I actually will be putting it up for sale shortly
because SWMBO just bought a new dual-fuel stove with a
gas stove top. One of the burners has enough BTU's to
send the next space shuttle up. 
The biggest problem I can see is getting the bugger
down into a basement. These things are heavy. 

=====
Jerry "Beaver" Pelt



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Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2003 15:35:24 -0700 (PDT)
From: Kent Fletcher <fletcherhomebrew at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Carmel (sic) Porter

Darrell asked about making a "Carmel Perter."

Darrell, are you talking about the seaside resort town
in California?  Don't know what connection that would
have to a Porter...  If you mean a CarAmel Porter, you
could either boil for a very long time while adding
back wort or water to maintain volume, or reserve the
first gallon or so of runnings and boil it down to
carAmelize it, then add it back to the main boil.

Kent Fletcher
brewing in SoCal





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Date: Tue, 08 Apr 2003 14:49:55 -0800
From: "Jason Lindner" <jason at admin5.fastmail.fm>
Subject: Cooling off the wort

I brew in Southern California, not as hot as true desert, but still
pretty warm.  I went the cheapest possible method to cool down my beer. 
I bought a small, broken fridge second-hand, the type a college kid would
keep in his dorm room.  It didn't run at all, but that didn't matter, I
got it for $20 and it is just an insulated box about the size of my
carboy.  I had to take the plastic shelving off the door to make enough
room to fit the carboy in there, in fact.  I put it in the shade, and
bought a bunch of those freezer packs like people use in coolers, the
type that are just bags filled with a gel substance.  The freezer packs
cost about $1 each.

Stick the carboy in the minifridge with some freezer packs.  It'll cool
right down and stay cool.  I can regulate the temperature nicely by
changing the amount of freezer packs in the fridge and their location
(right up against the carboy or up in the chiller tray).  As a matter of
fact, I'm currently managing to lager with this setup!  As long as I keep
changing those freezer packs every morning and put four of them right on
the carboy, I can get the temperature down to 40 or below.  It's not as
perfect as a real fridge with an external thermometer would be, but to
me, being able to brew with "homemade" equipment is even more fun.  It's
sort of like the old days when they would brew a lager in an icehouse. 
The whole setup cost me under $40.

You could probably just as easily use a big cylindrical cooler or a
rectangular cooler stood up on its side as a little fridge, but my little
broken fridge lets me swing open the door and check the temperature very
easily, and it creates a great seal to keep the interior cold.

> Date: Mon, 07 Apr 2003 17:08:44 +0000
> From: "Dave Larsen" <hunahpumonkey at hotmail.com>
> Subject: Cooling Off the Wort

> Eventually, I'll invest in a chest freezer and one of the funky external 
> thermostats (I want to do that anyway to get into lagering).  However, in 
> the mean time, I'd like to find a way of cooling my wort.
> I'm sure there are some other desert brewers here.  Does anybody have a 
> good, cost effective, low-tech way to cool their fermentors?


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Date: Tue, 08 Apr 2003 18:16:18 -0500
From: Matthew Arnold <marnold at ez-net.com>
Subject: Re: Indoor Boiling

>What is the best method for boiling wort indoors in a basement?  I want to
>go to 12 gallon batches and move to all grain brewing, but boiling outside
>in the winter won't be pretty in Wisconsin.

I live farther north than you do (Oconto Falls, 1/2 hour north of Green 
Bay) and always boil outside. Granted, I'm in my garage, but the door is 
open. My personal record was a couple of Januarys ago. I boiled my wort 
while the actual temperature was -12F (-24.4C). The steam from the kettle 
formed this cool column that rose up to the rafters in my garage. Once the 
rafters filled, it billowed out the garage door. Very cool.

Matt



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Date: Tue,  8 Apr 2003 19:26:45 -0500
From: "nlkanous " <nlkanous at mail.pharmacy.wisc.edu>
Subject: Yarrow in beer

Anybody got any experience with using yarrow in beer?  I'm curious.  I
made a tea of it last night and it was much more herbal than I'd read.
What quantities have folks used in what volume of wort?  What were the
results?  TIA.
nathan


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