HOMEBREW Digest #551 Thu 06 December 1990

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		Rob Gardner, Digest Coordinator

  RE: Lager 9n9 lime and Shandy (Iain_P_Harding.Wbst129)
  Soda kegs - how do I sanitize them (Mark.Nevar)
  straining,stout yeast,copper, etc (Bill Crick)
  Lime in Beer (Arun Welch)
  Lime and Nitrogen in beer (Eric Pepke)
  Mikes Math (Jay Hersh)
  Pasteurized extract (Donald P Perley)
  Pacific dry (mike_schrempp)
  Shandy (foster)
  Oh God, not Al vs. Stainless again!!! (krweiss)
  Re: Homebrew Digest #549 (December 04, 1990) (Perry A. Trunick)
  Chimay *goofup* (Algis R Korzonas +1 708 979 8583)
  Refer Set-up Costs (Rad Equipment)
  my mistake on stout yeast (florianb)
  Guinness (Mike Charlton)
  WYeast American Ale Yeast (Mike Charlton)
  Reconditioning Kegs (Rad Equipment)
  yeast autolysis (Algis R Korzonas +1 708 979 8583)
  Chimay yeast (mcnally)
  Continental Pilsner by Larry Miller (Norm Hardy)
  Yeast Culturing Technique (techentin)

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---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 5 Dec 1990 04:40:36 PST From: Iain_P_Harding.Wbst129 at xerox.com Subject: RE: Lager 9n9 lime and Shandy Lager 'n' lime is usually a proportioned as a dash of lime in a Imperial pint of Lager. Shandy is proportioned ,depending on the publican, as about half Sparkling lemonade and half lager. A Bitter or Mild shandy can also be obtained of relatively the same lemonade / beer proportions. While usually served to women beer shandys were popular with the younger set before the advent lager. The Shandy being of slightly smoother less harsh taste, less heavy as well as a lighter color appealed to those not yet weaned on the men's stuff. Iain P Harding A Englishman Abroad Xerox - The Document Company Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 5 Dec 90 07:39:25 mst From: Mark.Nevar at hp-lsd.cos.hp.com Subject: Soda kegs - how do I sanitize them I posted this last week, but got no response. So, I'll try again: I finally got some soda kegs to use. I need to know how to sanitize them. Cleaning isn't too hard, but I'd like to hear your procedures on kegging. This is how I see it: Clean keg. Sanitize - bleach ? what about the valves ? Leave them on, boil, what ? Add priming syrup. Inject a little CO2 to act as a buffer (CO2 should sink to botom). Rack beer to keg. Install lid. Inject CO2 to seal o-ring. Seems easy enough, but how do you clean/sanitize the keg itself ? Here's something new: I got a new catalog from Alternative Beverage in NC. They sell used kegs for 19.95 (as advertised in Zymurgy). But, the lids may not have pressure release valves on them. They sell reconditioned kegs for 35.95 which have been cleaned, have had the lids replaced, and have new o-rings installed. I have heard you can swap old lids for the new ones from the company. But what company ? Is it free ? All in all, the reconditioned key sounds pretty good. I know Art's Brewing in Utah sells kegs for 25.00, but are they reconditioned or do they guarantee pressure relief lids ? I remember some people placing orders with them. How did it turn out ? The new catalog also lists attenuation of all WYeast strains. I don't have it here. Would everyone like to see it ? Mark Nevar Return to table of contents
Date: 5 Dec 90 15:36:09 GMT From: bnrgate!bnr-rsc!crick at uunet.UU.NET (Bill Crick) Subject: straining,stout yeast,copper, etc The idea of putting a straining bag on the output of the siphon sounds good. Even with leaf hops, if you use a big enough tube. You could use an old nylon for the strainer? Speaking of big siphons, how do you get your grain from the mash tun to the lauter tun? The last batch we did, a friend decided to try siphoning it with a large diameter hose. He was able to get all the liquid, and about 80% of the grain to go through the siphon. This was less tedious than ladling it out with a pot. It also seemed to create a good bed in the Zapapp lautertun. I forget if we used foundation water, but we probably did. If you stir around the suction end as it siphons you might be able to get all of it. Note this was a step infusion mash, with a protien rest, so it was fairly sloppy. The hose was about a 3/4' ID. You probably could use a 1" blowoff tube? Isn't copper the traditional material for mash tuns, and boiling kettles in breweries? Stainless steel is being used in new setups, but what was used 50 years ago? Copper is cerrtainly the material of choice in clandestine stills ;-0 Bill Crick Brewius, Ergo Smashed %-P Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 5 Dec 90 10:34:02 -0500 From: Arun Welch <welch at cis.ohio-state.edu> Subject: Lime in Beer > They also do what is >called Shandy, which is a variation of the lager and lime as I >recall. A shandy, (or shandygaff, which it's the short form for), is 1/2 and 1/2 beer and lemonade. At the bar I worked at for a time in northern Germany it was called a moorwasser (Moor water, as it looks like the water in a swamp). In England it's typically known as a women's drink, but in Germany it was used as a way to quench the thirst without getting too much alcohol (it was the only bar in a small farm village, and the farmers would typically get one when they came in for lunch). God forbit those Germans drink straight lemonade :-). ...arun - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Arun Welch Lisp Systems Programmer, Lab for AI Research, Ohio State University welch at cis.ohio-state.edu Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 5 Dec 1990 10:47:20 EST From: PEPKE at SCRI1.SCRI.FSU.EDU (Eric Pepke) Subject: Lime and Nitrogen in beer The English have "lager & lime," which is lager mixed with a little bit of sweetened lime juice such as Rose's. There is also "lager with a lime top" which is the same, though more care is taken not to overmix the lime juice with the lager. For some lamentable reason, lager and lime is the drink of choice among the English version of yuppies, and lager is displacing the much more complex and traditional English bitter. It is becoming nigh impossible to find a pub that can make a mild & bitter any more, but they all have Budwieser taps. Even though their Budweiser is much superior to ours, still I say, "Yuck." "Shandy" is a drink made with half bitter and half "lemonade." "Lemonade" is a drink similar to 7-up or Sprite with the difference that it is slightly less fizzy, slightly weaker, and for some odd reason contains both sugar and saccharine, which to me gives it a slightly soapy taste. There is also "lager with a lemonade top." Shandy is a very thirst-quenching drink and is often preferred on hot days to replace fluids. Youngsters are often allowed to drink shandy in the home before they are allowed to drink beer. (It is not illegal to give alcohol to teenagers in Great Britain, as long as it's not in a pub.) (Aside--Some people are upset about the use of the word England. I use it because I am much more familiar with England than I am with Wales or Scotland, and I have never even been to Northern Ireland.) "Radler" is a Bavarian form of shandy made with German lager. The name comes from the German word for bicyclist. It is a popular drink for the designated driver, which is a common tradition in Germany. Dave Line says that Guinness is pressurized with nitrogen rather than with CO2 because it gives a smoother, stiffer head with tinier bubbles. Eric Pepke INTERNET: pepke at gw.scri.fsu.edu Supercomputer Computations Research Institute MFENET: pepke at fsu Florida State University SPAN: scri::pepke Tallahassee, FL 32306-4052 BITNET: pepke at fsu Disclaimer: My employers seldom even LISTEN to my opinions. Meta-disclaimer: Any society that needs disclaimers has too many lawyers. Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 5 Dec 90 10:20:42 EST From: hersh at coco.ctc.tasc.com (Jay Hersh) Subject: Mikes Math Al K writes: >I will probably keep in the secondary for about 8 weeks at 45F and then >another 8 weeks in the keg at 45F. Wow what patience! Mike F: Hope you don't balance your checkbook the same way you did your math on Pete's figures 8-)!! Kinney writes: >I sleep better knowing that I've siphoned boiling hot (sterilized) >wort through a chiller that cools it immediately. A slow cool makes me >nervous because you never know what can get into the wort once the >overall temperature gets to around 120 degrees. And there you are in >your kitchen with your precious wort exposed to all sorts of stuff... My immersion chiller takes 10-20 minutes to cool the wort. Only a few of those are spent in the critical 120-140 bacteria loving temps. I'd say your worrying.... - Jay H Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 5 Dec 90 11:44:28 EST From: perley at easygoer.crd.ge.com (Donald P Perley) Subject: Pasteurized extract Marc Rouleau: >This line of reasoning sounds kinda fishy to me. I thought enzymes >were useful only at the mashing stage. The mash-out is supposed to >deactivate them anyway, right? Al Korzonas: +I don't believe the unpasteurized bit. The temperatures +used to concentrate the wort into extract will, as you +have suggested Marc, denature the enzymes. Edme DMS (diastatic malt syrup) has the enzymes. At least some of the extract companies boil the extract under a partial vacuum to keep the temperature down. Why keep them, you say? So you can make partial mashes, with mostly extract, but some wheat or rice, etc. added. Even malted wheat is kind of low in enzymes, so the DMS lets you mash it easier, without the "hassles of scale" that a full mash entails. -don perley Return to table of contents
Date: 5 Dec 90 07:32 -0800 From: mike_schrempp%29 at hp4200.desk.hp.com Subject: Pacific dry Hello out there, Has anybody else tried Pete's Pacific Dry? I had some and it had a wonderful chocolaty smooth taste. I'd like to try making some, but I'm too new to brewing to even think about making up a recipe myself. Anybody made anything like this? In another light, it's starting to get very chilly outside. I'm thinking of trying a lagered beer. What is the common wisdom on leaving a carboy of beer out in the backyard (covered to keep the light out, of course)? Will the local critters leave it alone? Mike Schrempp Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 5 Dec 90 09:47:10 PST From: foster at rumor.enet Subject: Shandy The common definitian of 'shandy' is beer (usually bitter) with lemonade (7UP to US readers). The typical proportions are 50-70 percent beer, the rest lemonade. The result is a slightly alcoholic but very refreshing drink. This contrasts with another common habit of adding dash of lemonade to a pint of bitter to take the edge off it. There are also other common mixtures of light ale and bitter, mild and bitter etc as people choose different beer "cocktails" to suit their own personal choice. Stan. Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 5 Dec 90 09:41:26 -0800 From: krweiss at ucdavis.edu Subject: Oh God, not Al vs. Stainless again!!! OK, I'm going to make this info request as absolutely specific as possible. Has anyone out there actually done a side by side comparison of batches brewed in stainless steel and aluminum brewpots? Please, don't reply unless you've actually done a side by side comparison... I don't think we need yet another Al vs. Stainless donnybrook. In fact, let's just keep all replies to this particular post to email - my address is krweiss at ucdavis.edu Reason I'm asking is, I dropped my porcelin pot and put a huge chip in it. A 24 qt. aluminum pot is $50.00, and the same size stainless is $150. I never did get enough information out of the last debate to decide whether Al really messes up beer or not... Thanks, and remember, email back to me directly on this one, not to the general list. I'll summarize and post results in a week or two. Ken Weiss krweiss at ucdavis.edu Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 4 Dec 90 21:45:08 -0500 From: ag297 at cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Perry A. Trunick) Subject: Re: Homebrew Digest #549 (December 04, 1990) The post about translating the German purity laws is very true. What was the date on them? 1500? 15th century? Language is one thing which does change (as I recall, the modern German word for computer is computer). Some of the text could be modernized with very little difficulty. Other more subtle points WOULD take a scholar. All of this is assuming the text was transcribed correctly. There are very few modern readers who wouldn't be slowed (even to a stop) by the old text. In the post-Nazi era, the old script was discontinued and modern type introduced. There may be an updated German version around given that the purity laws were used in the Cassis Dijon case. - -- The most important thing you have to know in life is yourself. Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 5 Dec 90 11:09:16 mst From: hplabs!hp-lsd.cos.hp.com!ihlpl!korz (Algis R Korzonas +1 708 979 8583) Subject: Chimay *goofup* Whoa! I goofed. That's what you get when I rely on my memory. When I got home from work, I checked the back of the Chimay bottle and realized that I had put both my foot and my terminal in my mouth. Here's what it says on the back of the Chimay Grande Reserve bottle: Since 1862 the Trappist monks of Chimay Abbey in Belgium have been brewing Chimay ale combining the artesian water of Chimay Abbey with fine barley malt, an aromatic blend of hops, and Chimay's uniquely cultivated yeast. Top fermentation gives Chimay a distinctive fruitiness of flavor. Fresh yeast is added just prior to bottling resulting in the slight sediment which you can see. This secondary fermentation in the bottle adds to the ale's richness and body. The Trappist fathers of Chimay use exclusively natural ingredients. This product has neither been pasteurized nor filtered. Well, that's not quite what I posted yesterday. I may be right about the two different strains of yeast and that the primary fermentation may be from naturally occuring yeast, but I was wrong about the filtering and pasteurization. I'm at a loss regarding the lactobacillus -- I recall that the Chimay had a lactic sourness which is certainly present in Lambics, but I've never _read_ anywhere that Trappist Ales also include a lactic "fermentation." I will certainly be more careful with my data in the future. On a side note relating to an earlier posting regarding NOT leaving the yeast in a Hefe Weizen behind, the Chimay bottle also contains this note: The sediment you see is natural and normal. Pour slowly to allow sediment to remain in the bottle. I should be humble at this time, but I can't let this by without a comment: "This secondary fermentation in the bottle adds to the ale's richness and body." Additional fermentation cannot ADD to the body -- it can only reduce the body by munching on the non-fermentable sugars that give the beer its body. Either this is a bad translation or an advertising agency's influence. Al. Return to table of contents
Date: 5 Dec 90 11:21:13 From: Rad Equipment <Rad_Equipment at rad-mac1.ucsf.EDU> Subject: Refer Set-up Costs REGARDING Refer Set-up Costs In HBD #549 Joe Uknalis <UKNALIS at VTVM1.CC.VT.EDU> asks about costs in building a tapped refridgerator for beer. I estimate mine cost about $100.00 to convert to a 3 faucet system. The box (16cu. ft.) was free from a friend, the 20lb. CO2 tank was next to nothing from a garage sale, the regulator was $35.00 (2 gague Corn.), and the rest came from Foxx Beverage in Denver for the above mentioned $100.00. I plumbed a 1/4" copper line in for the gas to a 3 way distributor with check valves to which there are 36" braided gas lines with ball gas connectors for the soda kegs. There are three faucets through the door (I replaced the shelf unit inside the door with that stuff you put around bathtubs and showers, a sort of glazed masonite material). The faucets are set up to 1/4" beverage lines with ball-end connectors. I also put a lockable box around the faucets on the front of the thing to keep dirt and unauthorized access out. I plan to expand to accomodate Liberty Ale kegs soon, I have the tap (also from Foxx, about $40.00) since I figure I can fit 1 Sanke keg and 2 soda canisters inside the box. It is certainly the way to go if you have the room and can do the work (or you have a friend who can). Only down side is that the kegs seem to hold less now that I have set the system up, can't figure out how that can be...<grin> Russ Wigglesworth <Rad Equipment at RadMac1.ucsf.edu> Return to table of contents
Date: 05 Dec 90 12:40:12 PST (Wed) From: florianb at tekred.cna.tek.com Subject: my mistake on stout yeast Yesterday, I flubbed up when stating the Wyeast number for the Irish ale yeast. It's #1098, not #1084. An acquaintance of mine brews quite good stouts using Edme dry yeast. Florian Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 5 Dec 90 15:13:13 CST From: Mike Charlton <umcharl3 at ccu.UManitoba.CA> Subject: Guinness I find it hard to believe that US Guinness is made in Canada. Canadian Guinness is probably one of the worst beers I've ever had. It has no head, is extremely astringent and has virtually no body at all. It's horrible to call it Guinness. I've had US Guiness and it's pretty good. However, the best beer I've ever had was draught Dublin Guinness. That stuff is amazing! The reason they use nitrogen is that it helps head formation. I can't remember all the details (I believe Line explains it in "The Big Book of Brewing"), but it is the nitrogen that is responsible for the nearly gelatin like thickness of the beer. Mike Charlton Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 5 Dec 90 15:28:16 CST From: Mike Charlton <umcharl3 at ccu.UManitoba.CA> Subject: WYeast American Ale Yeast My brewing partner and I made up a few cultures of WYeast American Ale Yeast (#1056) to stick away for a rainy day (liquid yeast cultures are hard to get here), and have have been using them quite successfully. It is interesting to note, however that the fermentation characteristics of the yeast are changing as it gets older (This is all first generation yeast -- ie. we made several agar slants from a single package and are only using those slants). One of the most dramatic changes is that it has turned into a bottom fermenting yeast! There is virtually no foam on the top of our fermentors and a huge amount of yeast sediment at the bottom. The other thing is that it has become extremely powdery and takes 3-4 weeks to clear. My first thought would be that we just picked up a wild yeast that has taken over the cultures. The only problem is that the beer being produced is of great quality (even better than before). My other thought was that WYeast #1056 might be a mixture of S. cerevicae(sp?) and S. uvarum (carlsbergensis) and that the top fermeting yeast just died of old age (~6 months). Does anyone know? I know that it passes a standard test for a lager yeast (it can ferment maltotriose, I believe), so maybe the idea's not too out of whack. In any case, I think I'll make up a second generation culture of it since it seems so good. Thanks for any info Mike Charlton Return to table of contents
Date: 5 Dec 90 13:15:50 From: Rad Equipment <Rad_Equipment at rad-mac1.ucsf.EDU> Subject: Reconditioning Kegs REGARDING Reconditioning Kegs Regarding Jay Hersh's comment in HBD #550 > Replacing the seals and fittings is possible but it ends up costing as much or more than buying a reconditioned keg. I have had great success finding used 5 gal. kegs thru restaurant suppliers, 2nd hand shops, garage sales, and right off the soda truck. These kegs range in price from $10.00 to $22.00. Replacing ALL the O-rings and both poppet valves costs about $7.00 when you buy the materials from places like Foxx. Even if you go with the "super" lid ring from Williams, which isn't a bad idea with older kegs, the cost of the parts only goes to about $15.00 bringing the total to $25.00 - $37.00 tops. From what I have seen locally and mail order, the price for reconditioned kegs usally begins at $40.00. Russ Wigglesworth <Rad Equipment at RadMac1.ucsf.edu> Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 5 Dec 90 15:12:23 mst From: hplabs!hp-lsd.cos.hp.com!ihlpl!korz (Algis R Korzonas +1 708 979 8583) Subject: yeast autolysis In Digest #550, I wrote: >are using two-stage fermentation -- the only problem with waiting too >long before bottling or kegging is yeast autolysis (the breakdown of >cell walls by self-produced enzymes). You should probably get the >beer off the trub after 6 or 8 weeks if you don't use a secondary. I checked TCJoHB last night and Charlie recommends getting the beer off the dead yeast after 3-4 weeks. I may be overly optimistic with the 6-8 weeks, however how soon autolysis begins is a function of the health of your yeast (for example, insufficient oxygen during the resparation phase will give you sickly yeast) and, I'm quite sure, temperature also. Last night I kegged a Weizen that I never got around to racking to the secondary. After 8 weeks in the primary with a good 1.5" of trub, there were no off flavors in the beer. I used Wyeast Bavarian Weizen yeast and made sure that I aerated the wort thoroughly after cooling. Al. Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 05 Dec 90 16:58:05 PST From: mcnally at wsl.dec.com Subject: Chimay yeast It must seem like I have Chimay on the brain, huh? Maybe it's true. Anyway, in HBD 550 Algis Korzonas claims that Chimay is fermented with wild yeasts, like a Lambic, then bottled with the fabulous creatures I am so fond of reculturing. I seriously doubt this. First, "wild" beers are produced in only a very limited area of Belgium; I don't believe that the Chimay abbey is in this are, but is rather far north, near the Netherlands (I could be wrong in a big way here). Certainly, there is none of the lactic acid "ZING" in Chimay that one gets in a Lambic. Also, I recollect no mention of wild yeasts in the "Beer Hunter" interview with the actual Abbey-denizen who isolated the yeast. I do agree that in addition to priming, Chimay is given a shot (a "dossage" as the bottle says) of yeast at bottling. This might be to reduce probability of infection; if they filter the beer, then bottle with fresh yeast, they might filter out other nasty stuff as well. - -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Mike McNally mcnally at wsl.dec.com Digital Equipment Corporation Western Software Lab Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 5 Dec 90 20:12:39 PST From: polstra!norm at uunet.UU.NET (Norm Hardy) Subject: Continental Pilsner by Larry Miller The AHA finally sent the new book by Miller. I read it in two days. Here is what I think of it: (1) As a homebrewer for 5 years and a lager fanatic I have done alot of reading about making the stuff, including Miller's first book, The Complete Handbook of Home Brewing. (2) Aside from some interesting tidbits about the Czech. beer scene, there was VERY LITTLE that was new. The recipes at the end are short and concise with little follow up. It's almost as if the book ends before it really begins. (3) I purchased the book early to beat the rush. HA! After the AHA acknowledged my order, they sent a blurb offering the book at a discount to members. Thanks a lot! (4) My recommendation is that if you want to get into brewing lagers, and don't know much about it, buy the book. Otherwise, save your money. Norm Hardy Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 5 Dec 90 22:24:33 -0600 From: techentin at Mayo.edu Subject: Yeast Culturing Technique As I sit here sipping my (almost mature) Christmas ale, I am quite pleased with myself. My brewpartner and I have successfully recultured and re-used Wyeast's Irish Ale (stout) yeast using a very relaxing technique. We had never paid $4.00 for yeast before, so we wanted to try our hand at reculturing the stuff back in April when we first tried liquid yeast. I had read several accounts of yeast cultures ranging from immediately re-pitching the slurry at the bottom of the secondary (easy) to growing cultures in petri dishes (hard). I had also read several accounts of culturing commercial yeasts such as Sierre Nevada. We tried several storage methods, including freezing some yeast slurry with food grade glycerine, but they weren't as relaxed as simply bottling (and capping) some of the slurry in a twelve ounce long-neck and tossing it in the fridge. The slurry (or as my wife refers to it, "that mucky stuff at the bottom of the bucket") spent from April until early November in the back of the fridge. I made up 1/2 liter of starter wort in a wine bottle, added the room temperature slurry, and in two days had 3/4 liter of happy yeasties to pitch. The recultured yeast produced a fine beer. We had plenty of stanitized bottles & caps ready when we stored it, so it was really no trouble at all. The only problem is that my glass is empty. :-) - ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Bob Techentin Internet: Techentin at Mayo.Edu Mayo Foundation, Rochester MN, 55905 USA (507) 284-2702 - ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Return to table of contents
End of HOMEBREW Digest #551, 12/06/90 ************************************* -------
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