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	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Rob Gardner, Digest Coordinator

Contents:
  recipes, etc. (Steffen Saustrup)
  Guilt/delayed info/etc. (mhalley)
  My Comments on Killer Party Ale (Mike Fertsch)
  re: delayed responses (Darryl Richman)
  re: freezing of yeasties (Darryl Richman)
  Brewing in plastic (Darryl Richman)
  Green Bottles, Miller's book (florianb)

Send submissions to homebrew%hpfcmr at hplabs.hp.com
Send requests to homebrew-request%hpfcmr at hplabs.hp.com


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Date: Mon, 13 Mar 89 12:54:58 CST
From: steffen at utig.ig.utexas.edu (Steffen Saustrup)
Subject: recipes, etc.

A couple of questions from a beginner:  Do high-alcohol such as 'Killer
Party Ale' (posted earlier in H. D.) take longer to ferment than lower-
alcohol (assuming same yeast and ferm. process)?  Do they take longer
to condition in the bottle?

Also -- I agree about the flames, etc. but I would like to thank
Mr. Mossberg for actually posting a recipe.  I'm a recent subscriber
to H. D., but I haven't seen many recipes posted (even when they've
been requested).  I know that the homebrew books are full of recipes,
but as a beginner it's nice to see recipes than non-authors have
tried and enjoyed.

Steffen Saustrup

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Date:       13 Mar 89 14:39 -0330
From: <mhalley%MUN.BITNET at CORNELLC.ccs.cornell.edu>
Subject:    Guilt/delayed info/etc.

To Al K:

Bless you|  After our first go-round
on this network, it's no wonder you
waited to come back to me.  However,
if you want lessons on karmic debts
or "How to turn guilt into a fine
art", I'm sure I'm a qualified tutor.
Thanks again.

To Mossberg:

Sorry about the snideness, but your
comeback about chefs and recipes DID
sound rather like you were trying to
rub somebody's nose in it.  Personally,
I apologize to you.  I may have
misinterpreted.  I certainly agree
that Lyle's is a unique product which
cannot be simulated by anything else
in my experience of syrup-type products.

To the California and New England crowds:

Can any of YOU suggest sources for Geordie
products, or must I contact the Illinois
sources listed by Al?

Finally --

I should be returning to the States between
early June and late September.  By that time
I will be OFF the emailing list.  I will
be mostly in the coastal areas doing field
research.  Does anyone want to send me
(by personal email) their locations that we
might meet and exchange possibly mutually
rewarding brewinfo?  I'd really like to know.
Also, anyone on this line know any veterans
of the WW II convoys?  I'm looking for sources
for my Ph.D. research -- Merchant Mariners:
deck or engine room personnel, either officers
or crew; Naval personnel: either gunners who
were aboard merchant ships or personnel of
convoy escorts; wives, widows, or children
of the above.  Any information should be sent
to me by personal email.  Thanksabunch|

"Ye Olde Batte" (MHALLEY at MUN.CA)

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Date: Mon, 13 Mar 89 08:45 EST
From: Mike Fertsch <hplabs!uiucdcs!meccad.RAY.COM!FERTSCH>
Subject: My Comments on Killer Party Ale

My comments on the recipe for a.e.mossberg's Killer Party Ale seem to have
stirred up the kettle.  I've never seem so much bandwidth on a homebrew
recipe!  I don't want to make this issue a 'network party killer', but I
feel I should explain my comments.

> Date: Wed, 8 Mar 89 10:52:08 est
> From: a.e.mossberg <aem at mthvax.miami.edu>
> Subject: Re: Killer Party Ale

> Lyle's Golden Syrup is hardly an "unusual" ingredient or a "shop brand". It
> is a very well-known product from Britain.  Perhaps meccad.ray.com is in the
> boonies?  Lyle's Golden Syrup is a brand of cane sugar syrup.  BrewMagic is
> -- you guessed it -- enzymes.  It was pretty obvious, and it is also a very
> widely distributed brand.  I'm surprised you didn't ask me the alpha acid
> of the hops too.

I honestly never heard of either of these products.  I (mistakenly) guessed
that Lyle's is a molasses syrup or a honey-based product.  Molasses syrup
would give a nice 'Old Ale' character to the beer; honey would have a very
different effect.  Corn syrup is all together different again.  I want to
try making an old-ale (I would love to make an Old Peculier clone!)  A
molasses-based Killer Party Ale seems like the recipe I was looking for.

I do most of shopping for ingredients at my local homebrew retailer.  Since
I never saw Lyle's or BrewMagic at Boston-area shops, I need to know what
these are so I can substitute.  Based others' comments on this network, it
seems that supermarkets DO carry Lyle's.  I guess I need to learn about
alternative suppliers, like supermarkets.  The usual supermarket does not 
carry Lyles' - it sounds like super stuff - I'll just have to look around.

> And whatever happened to the AHA credo "Relax, Don't worry!" ?? It seems
> oft quoted enough!

I do my share of relaxing.  Knowing what ingredients are, where I can get 
them or knowing how I can substitute for them reduces my worries.

> I wonder if these people also write to restaurants ala "Regarding the recipe
> your chef printed in the newspaper last week, she did not specify the
> variety of oregano used nor its harvest date. Were the eggs hen's or duck's?
> Does "cooking sherry" refer to fino or cream?  The recipe says "cook
> for 25 minutes" yet my perusal of the article suggests that 32 minutes 17
> seconds might be a better figure. And finally, the article did not say if
> the recipe was good, or if I might want to try it.  How on earth am I to
> know these things if you don't explicitly state them?"

I certainly do NOT expect complete details of any recipe - food or
otherwise.  I DO request that something be told about the recipe - I am
sure the hypothetical article in the newspaper would not have the simple
headline "A GOOD RECIPE" and leave it to the reader to decide if these
ingredients are used to make a cake, a casserole, or a sauce for chicken
cordon bleu.  Newspaper recipes usually contain a paragraph describing the 
dish.

Like food, there are many styles of beer and ale.  It helps to know what
type of beer the recipe produces.  Simply listing the beer sytle, category,
or commercial look-alike should be sufficient.  That's all I wanted to say 
in my 'criticsm'.

Mike Fertsch 

[ Footnote -
Old Peculier is a commercial old ale manufactured in England.  It is 
not available nationwide in the US.  Michael Jackson's books on beer 
descibe the ale in sufficient detail to put the above statement in its 
proper context.
]

To a.e. mossberg - Let's not fight over this.  I read the Digest to be
informed.  I was interested enough in your recipe (I skip over most of
them), to openly wonder how I can make a similar beer.  Unfamilarity with
some of the ingredients and procedures led me to ask about Lyle's and
BrewMagic. Last Tuesday's solar eclipse prompted my poorly-worded comment
to recipe posters in general. E-Mail me your address, and I send you a
conciliatory beer! 

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Date: Mon, 13 Mar 89 06:55:47 PST
From: Darryl Richman <darryl at ism780c.isc.com>
Subject: re: delayed responses

From: hplabs!uiucdcs!iwtsf!korz (Algis R Korzonas +1 312 979 8583)
"I would like to make a general statment about why I sometimes
"take a long time to respond to questions to which I know the answers.
" [...]
"2) I'm not a super-expert (I've only been brewing 2 years) and
"although I might know the answer to a question, I usually wait
"for someone more qualified than me to answer first.  Now that

I'd be interested to know who on this net is qualified by more than a
bit of experience.  My personal claims are 4 years of brewing.  I do
try to read each book that comes down the pike, including "The Practical
Brewer," which is a bit thick literally and figuratively;  but as to
formal claims, I have none.  (It took me 12.5 years to get my bachelors
in CS!).  I hardly think of myself as an expert, merely an enthusiastic
amateur.  Don't put yourself down--you've already got a big headstart on
a lot of people.  It credits you to add to the knowledge base.

		--Darryl Richman

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Date: Mon, 13 Mar 89 06:36:37 PST
From: Darryl Richman <darryl at ism780c.isc.com>
Subject: re: freezing of yeasties

From: Michael Bergman <bergman%odin.m2c.org at RELAY.CS.NET>
"It is my understanding that yeast, in adverse conditions, goes through
"a process-that-I-have-forgotten-the-technical-name-for and becomes
"these little nearly indestructible "thingies" {I want to say
""enspores" and "spores" but suspect that these are the wrong technical
"terms --ah, if only I had saved my 9th grade bio notes :-)}.  I think

The word you are so desparately seeking is, I believe, "sporulation."
You're welcome ;-).  The results of sporulation are spores.  Most yeast,
bacteria, and molds sporulate, and many are resistant to even boiling
temperatures while in spore form.  If you suspect contamination by a
sporulating beast, my microbiologist partners say that you can boil the
object, let it cool for a day, and boil again.

Sadly, most brewer's yeast does not form spores.  True brewing strains
have been so highly evolved for their purpose and have their needs so
carefully tended that they have mostly lost this ability.

		--Darryl Richman

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Date: Mon, 13 Mar 89 07:23:55 PST
From: Darryl Richman <darryl at ism780c.isc.com>
Subject: Brewing in plastic

Shall we bring up a religious war again?  No?  Oh, come on, it'll be fun!

My practice has been to do two stage fermentations in the polycarbonate
plastic 5 gallon carboys that my local water company delivers in.  As far
as I can tell, there are three reasons to prefer glass over plastic:  1) glass
doesn't scratch easily, 2) the glass walls don't flex when you pick up the
carboy (and thereby threaten to suck the sterilant out of the airlock and
into your beer), and 3) glass is rather less permeable by oxygen.

But... I did a brew demo down at the shop where they only have glass
carboys, and I busted one.  I was doing something that I regularly do
with the plastic carboys:  rocking them back and forth to knock down the
foam head on the just pitched wort.  This is a real no-no with glass.  Glass
is very fragile.  I have actually bounced a full plastic carboy (from about
a foot up).

Glass is also easily subject to thermal shock.  I regularly boil 5 gallons
of water for rinse and sterile purposes and pour the water directly into
a plastic carboy, which I then cap.  By the time it is cool, it's in a safe
place, out of harms way.  (BTW, someone asked about Pyrex carboys:  you can
obtain them new from the Student Science Service in Burbank, CA.  A year
old catalog lists a 5 gallon one at $125.)

The polycarbonate carboys don't scratch easily, and if I were to actually
damage the surface of one, I would trade it back to my water company.  (They
have the same problems and can recycle them.)  They may eventually breathe
some air, but during fermentation there is an overpressure inside and so
CO2 would tend to get forced out, not O2 in.  The plastic carboys are, of
course, *much* easier on your back.

I'm still working on #2 above.  I usually grab the little floating cap out
of the airlock and put a blow-by tube (sterilized) onto the lock while I
move it.  It's a bit clumsy.

		--Darryl Richman

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Date: 13 Mar 89 13:03:52 PST (Mon)
From: florianb%tekred.cna.tek.com at RELAY.CS.NET
Subject: Green Bottles, Miller's book

I just returned from a trip around Europe for two weeks, touching down in 
England, France, and Switzerland.  Upon my return, I waded through several
accumulated HB Dig's, discovering the green bottle discussion that wouldn't
go away.

During my trip in France, I was forced to drink French beer at a ski resort
since that's all there was (gag!).  The green death even lives in Europe!
On the plane and trains, I finished up reading Miller's book "The Complete
Handbook of Home Brewing."  He gives a fairly detailed discussion of the
mechanism for light-spoilage in beer, which, being an optical physicist,
I can appreciate.

Miller regards Papazain's book in the bibliography as the most comprehensive
book on home brewing.  I think Miller is being too modest.  After reading
both books, there's no question in my mind that Miller's book is the better
of the two in terms of the depth of discussion, completeness, and readability.
It even has an index.  May I applaud Miller for having written something
really, really good, and recommend this book to all who have a desire to 
fundamentally understand the art (and science) of home brewing.

Cheers!

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