FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Rob Gardner, Digest Coordinator


Contents:
  floating mashtuns (G.A.Cooper)
  Cat's Meow Info/Quaffin' in San Diego! (Mark Simpson)
  removing chlorine (Stefan Chakerian)
  cold break and malt extract ("Knight,Jonathan G")
  bleached fruit ("Daniel F McConnell")
  hydrogen sulfide is yeast culture (Carlo Fusco)
  priming agents (sanders)
  Boiling Hops (whg)
  Cara-phenolic/Chemophobia (korz)
  Reply to Spray Malts (Greg_Habel)
  St. Louis Zymurgy (Tom Leith MIR/ERL 362-6965)
  re:plastic boilers,hot water heaters and floating mashtuns... (Paul LaBrie)
  Dick Van Dyke? (donald oconnor)
  hop utilization  (card)
  Mash thickness, Blow-tube cleaning, Plastic cases (Rich Lenihan)
  Phosphoric Acid and Glass (not to worry) (Jeff Copeland)
  Bottles ("Dowd-Brenton")
  Re: Grafting Hops onto Marijuana roots?==>SuperHops? (Chuck Cox)
  Re: Grafting Hops onto Marijuana (David Van Iderstine)
  1992 Minnesota Brew Fest winning recipes (Rick Larson)
  Bottle sources. (Ford Prefect)
  Thomas Hardy Ale (connell)
  smooth stout (Russ Gelinas)
  Cleaning Blow-off Tubing (Owen Kaser)
  Re: Rogue AI programs (Chuck Cox)
  Re : floating mashtuns (Conn Copas)
  How to build CP bottle fill (Chris McDermott)
  Re : quality of extract varies wildly (Conn Copas)
  diacytl, dough-in, freezing (Russ Gelinas)
  step mash times (Mark Garti  mrgarti at xyplex.com)
  funny taste?? (Paul Kizior)
  Pots, Pot and Hubris (Jack Schmidling)


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----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 3 Dec 1992 16:26:58 +0000
From: G.A.Cooper at qmw.ac.uk
Subject: floating mashtuns

I use a "floating mash tun" most of the time and am very happy with it.
Can I suggest a few things following the recent posting.

From: "Wayde Nie, Eng.Phys. II"

>     The procedure is simple, First you fill the boiler with your
>brew water (remember to allow for the water that boils away).

Also carry out water treatment (on all the water note) eg gypsum
 
>Bring the temperature up to your desired strike water temp.  Draw
>off the needed quantity of strike water and adjust your
>thermostat to the temp required for the first stage of your mash.
>Add your strike water to the goods in the grain bag, contained in
>your mash tun. Seal the lid and submerge in the boiler when you
>reach the desired temp.

You don't need to worry too soon about changing the temp of the water.
Draw the strike water directly into the mash tun, adding the goods as
normal. Seal the lid and submerge in the boiler. Only now do you need
bother about the temp of the water in the boiler. Strike temp is higher
than initial mash temp so you now simply add cold water into the boiler
(and adjust thermostat) to get correct temp. The thermal inertia of the
goods in the mash is quite large and having it submerged in water that's
a little bit hot for a few moments won't alter its temp.

>                         Allow the mash to complete. After the
>mash, remove the mash tun from the boiler and adjust thermostat
>to sparge temp.

Again, no need to remove the mash tun from the boiler. As the water comes
up to sparge temp, the goods will only rise in temp a little - and that's
no bad thing because it's desirable to raise the temp for a "mash out"
anyway. (rather than let it stand for a short while and cool down a little)

>               Transfer the sparge water to another vessel and
>sparge through the mash tun back into the boiler. Boil your wort.
>when it's finished chill and drain into a primary.

It could be done by sparging into another vessel and then transferring into
the boiler after sparge, but the benefit of your way is that you can begin
to bring the first runnings of the wort to the boil before sparging is
complete.

I like to keep things simple, I hope that is of help. I have come to like
the floating mash tun method. But I suppose that's a personal choice.


>     BTW, when using immersion heaters of high wattage, it is a
>good idea to keep everything WELL grounded

Excellent safety advice - and compulsory in the UK

Geoff


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Date: Thu, 3 Dec 92 16:19:11 PST
From: mark at crash.cts.com (Mark Simpson)
Subject: Cat's Meow Info/Quaffin' in San Diego!

Howdy All!
I was hoping that someone out there in HBD land could point me
to a copy of the Cat's Meow Handbook. I have heard a lot about
it and would like to take a look at it. Thanks!!

Also, I am the Internet Rep and VP for QUAFF (Quality Ale and
Fermentation Fraternity) in San Diego. We meet on the third
Wednesday of each month at 7pm at the La Jolla Brewery. The
meetings are held in their back room and we would like to meet
new brewers (not just a frat boy club; we DO have ample repres-
entatives from either side). We have a new president and lots
of new goodies planned so come on down!!!
Mark Simpson (The Harmonica Brew-Cat)
internet:  mark at crash.cts.com
work: (619) 451-4378



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Date: Thu, 3 Dec 92 16:43:58 -0700
From: Stefan Chakerian <schaker at carina.unm.edu>
Subject: removing chlorine

> From: Paul dArmond <paulf at henson.cc.wwu.edu>
> Our water association uses
> sodium hypochlorite (bleach).  This is not removed by boiling.  She says
> that hypochlorite can be removed by two methods:  exposure to sunlight and
> evaporation, and adding sodium thiosulphate (photographic hypo).
>
> Setting my water out for a couple of days is not real practical (among
> other things, I live in NW Washington state, so we won't see any UV for
> another seven or eight months...), and I don't really want to add hypo to
> my beer.  Ick!

I suspect that setting your water out for a few days is easily practical.
Fill a santized carboy with water and put an airlock on it.  Set it in
front of a window.  There's at least some UV, even through clouds.

I used to remove chlorine this way (except without sanitation) to
prepare water for adding to a fishtank.  I couldn't smell any chlorine
after a day of waiting (there will be some smell when you first remove
the cap, but that will go away).  Later I started using sodium
thiosulphate.  The fish didn't die ;^)

Perhaps you should boil the water beforehand, so that you'll be sure
to have sterile dechlorinated water to add to your wort later.

				stef

    _---_     Stefan Chakerian
   / o o \    schaker at carina.unm.edu, schaker at unmb.bitnet
  | \___/ |   
   \_____/    Don't anthropomorphize computers.  They don't like it.

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Date: Thu, 3 Dec 92 14:24:35 cdt
From: "Knight,Jonathan G" <KNIGHTJ at AC.GRIN.EDU>
Subject: cold break and malt extract


Regarding yeast nutrients in trub, and in particular one poster's experiment 
with making a yeast starter with trub in it (am I remembering right?) which 
started more quickly than one without: I am wondering if that is why I get 
such explosive starts when I pitch a fresh batch of cooled wort onto a yeast 
cake off of which I have just siphoned & bottled.

I've tried this a couple of times but generally I haven't been impressed with 
the results - a certain coarseness of flavor seems to occur which I might 
guess would be attributable to kicking all that yuck up through the beer one 
more time.

What about cooling, racking off the trub and pitching, but siphoning off just 
a LITTLE of the trub into the primary for some nutrients?  Any comments?

Regarding malt extract: I've been using William's stuff (syrup) largely because 
it's inexpensive and seems to be reputable.  Anybody want to confirm or dispute 
that?  Can I do better (other than going to partial or full mash, which I'll 
get to evENtually but not just yet)?  The various canned syrups seem to be 
substantially more expensive than William's pouch-ed syrup.  Apparently 
they buy theirs in bulk ("big drums") and then package in plastic pouches 
for shipping - but I don't know where they get the stuff from originally.  
Been meaning to ask.

Beerily yours,

Jonathan

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Date: 3 Dec 1992 21:01:28 -0500
From: "Daniel F McConnell" <Daniel.F.McConnell at med.umich.edu>
Subject: bleached fruit

                       Subject:                               Time:8:57 PM
  OFFICE MEMO          bleached fruit                         Date:12/3/92
Tony Babinec writes:
The berries were crushed in a total of 1/2 gallon, and were bright red.  I
added 2 campden tablets (the label suggested 1-2 per gallon, but I wanted
to be *sure*) and within minutes the color had faded to a pale wimpy
yellow .

Painful isn't it?  I've never had the problem with beers, only meads.  Watching
10 lb of hand-picked black raspberries fade is not a happy sight.  For this
reason I have sworn off the use of campden in meads and now use only gentle
heat (minimum past.temp) or NO TREATMENT at all.  I  have had no spoilage
problems most likely due to the high alcohol concentration.  I know this is not
much help as far as beers go, BUT in the case of bleached meads (and wine for
that matter) the alcohol formed in the fermentation extracts enough color from
the fruit skins that the beverage again becomes colored, although obvoiusly not
as intensly as it would have been.  
DanMcC



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Date: Thu, 3 Dec 1992 23:25 EST
From: Carlo Fusco <G1400023 at NICKEL.LAURENTIAN.CA>
Subject: hydrogen sulfide is yeast culture

Hello,

I have a few questions about culturing yeast. A friend of mine was nice 
enough to give me a few cultures of Wyeast. [Wyeast is impossible to get 
around here.] One of the slants he gave me has Wyeast 1007 in it. 

I received them about 2 weeks ago and I occationally vent 
them so they don't blow up, I also keep them in the fridge. Today when I 
vented it I found a really strong rotten egg smell come from that slant only. 
I remember reading something about hydrogen sulfide some time ago but I can't 
remember what it said. Can someone enlighten me to what is causing the 
production of hydrogen sulfide.

BTW, the slants were made and autoclaved in a microbiology lab at a local 
Univ. and proper aseptic technique was used to streak the slants.

Thanks

Carlo Fusco

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Date: Wed, 2 Dec 92 08:10:24 CST
From: sanders at tellabs.com
Subject: priming agents



On a recent Sunday afternoon, my brewpartners and I were getting ready
to perform a ritual bottling of a London-style ale when a conversation
like this occurred:

"Hey!  This is going to be a _great_ beer!  I can't wait to get this
bottled!"

"Me too!  Let's get started...  Where's the corn sugar???"

"I thought _you_ were going to buy the corn sugar?!?!"

"No, I thought _you_ were going to swing by the store and get it!"

"Aw, sh_t!!!"


So, we ended up with an aborted attempt at bottling.  (We _did_ realize
that we were without corn sugar before doing anything with the secondary
==> no lost beer.)


*******
However
*******
We realize that there oughtta be a way to use a bit of DME or other
non-table-sugars as a priming agent.  We thought about using DME at the
time, but the technique for doing so was not in our brewing repertoire,
so we erred on the side of caution and decided to wait until we could
get some corn sugar.

My question to the HBD is:  Other then corn sugar, what are other
acceptable priming agents and what is the technique for their use???

10Q!!!

- --- steve
    sanders at tellabs.com


  When the world is all dark
  and I need a light inside o' me
  I walk into a bar
  and drink 15 pints o' beer!

                   - The Pogues

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Date: Wed, 2 Dec 92 17:09:17 CST
From: whg at tellabs.com
Subject: Boiling Hops


In yesterdays digest Rob (bradley at adx.adelphi) outlines his SN clone
experiments.  The following struck me:

>or the pale ale, I would use Perle (as SN does) in the first hop
addition and fewer HBUs of it.  1 ounce of Perle at 7.6% was suggested
by Brian Batke.  He also suggested Perle for the 30 minute addition.

>Tony Babinec suggests that an all-Cascade pale ale of this sort is
more in the style of Liberty Ale.  I agree, but I would add even
more boiling hops and finishing hops if I were trying to clone it.


I've always lived under the assumption that the 60 minute addition will
basically just give you bitterness. (ie. 2 oz of 5% cascades will be
indistinuishable from 1 oz of 10% clusters) And that only in the later 
additions would different hop types cause significant differences. 
Specifiacally, about > 30 minutes of boil would drive off all aroma 
and most flavor, >10 minutes would drive off much aroma and leave flavors,
and <10 min boil was required for significant aroma. 

I've seen a theory advanced that the above assumptions are false. That the
bitterness derived from high AA hops has a different characteristic than
the same IBU derived from, say, noble hops.

What does the Digest audience think?  Are 30 IBU of cascades and clusters
the same when derived from a 60 min boil?  At what point (minutes) do you
drive off most off the flavor? aroma?

Walt

Walter Gude    ||   whg at tellabs.com

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Date: Thu, 3 Dec 92 13:05 CST
From: korz at iepubj.att.com
Subject: Cara-phenolic/Chemophobia

Jack writes:

> On a recent trip to Tim Norris to pick up some Belgian malt, he talked me 
> into chewing on a bit of Cara-pils and it set off all sorts of bells.  It is 
> very hard to chew but once it gets worked over, it is most interesting.  
> Instead of crumbling and disolving in the mouth like other malts, it gets 
> gummy and chewey.  It also has a taste all its own and may be what you are 
> looking for.

The DeWolf-Cosyns Belgian Cara-Pils grain is very different from most other
Cara-Pils or "Dextrine Malts" as they are sometimes called.  Most are crunchy
whereas the Belgian is indeed chewey.
> 
> Not being very subtile, I used two pounds in the first (7gal) batch along 
> with a pound of regular  (Cara-vienna) crystal and the result was stunning 
> but a bit over done.  I hesitate to use a loaded word to describe the taste 
> because it will lead some to assume that it is infected but it had a strong 
> flavor of bandaids during primary and when pumped to the secondary.  Not the 
> least bit unpleasant but probably too much at this point.  Don't know if it 
> will mellow out upon aging but the bandaid flavor is pretty much what the 
> malt has when chewing it.

That bandaid flavor is phenolics.  The most common source of them is from
your yeast (Munton & Fison yeast is notorious for them) but the Troubleshooting
special issue of Zymurgy mentions that wheat malt can cause them also.
Perhaps there's something in the Belgian Cara-Pils that does this also.
However, I have not noticed this problem -- granted I've never used 2 pounds
in a batch!!!  It could simply be a reaction between your strain of yeast and
something in the the Cara-pils.

> In the last batch, I only used one pound of Cara-pils plus the pound of 
> Cara-vienna and I may chip this one in stone.  It's been in the primary only 
> two days and I can not keep away from that evil little spigot.  This is 
> already, without a doubt, the World's Greatest Beer.

Much more reasonable -- I hope I get to taste it at tonight's CBS meeting.
If it is the world's greatest beer, I'll be honest and tell you I think so.

> I would be interested in hearing what others have to say about carapils, what 
> it is, how it is made and a more euphemous description of the flavor it 
> imparts.

To make a long story short, Cara-Pils is the lightest-colored of a series of
Crystal malts.  They are "mashed in the shell" so to speak by being kilned
at mashing temperatures first, before being dried.  The temperature of the
drying is what determines the color of the final product.  DeWolf-Cosyns
make four Crystal malts:

Cara-Pils	  5 - 10  Lovibond
Cara-Munich	 15 - 30  L
Cara-Vienne	 70 - 80  L
Special B	150 - 250 L

> BTW, this stuff is straight from hell as far as crushing is concerned.  It 
> takes a gorilla to turn the crank of a fully loaded mill but I find that just 
> sprinkling it in while turning the crank works just fine.  A second pass 
> through the mill also helps get a better "crush".

Amen.

Question:
Does anyone know how to measure the Lovibond rating of a malt?

*************************

P. writes:
>I don't intend to discuss whether one wants to use Campdens or not, but
>the point is, chloride, sulfate, and possibly (bi)sulfite are not things which
>one would not expect to find in beer etc.

You correct yourself later, but chloride and sulfate are very common in
beer indeed, especially in Burton Ales.  I agree, that not all chemistry is
bad, but the thought of drinking fixer is beyond me, and I'm crazy enough
to make Lambics (which look like sewers while fermenting).

Al.

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Date: Fri, 4 Dec 92 07:55:22 est
From: Greg_Habel at DGC.ceo.dg.com
Subject: Reply to Spray Malts

X-Ceo_Options:  Document


CEO document contents:  
David Peden writes:
Subject: Spray malts ?

The last two batches I have attempted to make a bitter simular to 
Red Hook. I have purchased bulk (55 pounds) of Laaglander Extra Light
spray malt, my problem is that both batches OG were 1.050-1.055 and 
finished at 1.028. I used both a Wyeast (Irish) for first batch, and
Muton and Fison dry (2 packages) for the second batch. My question is
are there a large amount of unfermentables in spray malts in general, 
or is this a problem with the Extra light variety ? I have not had a 
problem with cans of malt extract finishing so high.
David Peden

I reply:
       Dave I have had similar results with Laaglander malts.  They tend to
produce a low Original Gravity and a high Final Gravity.  This is also
confirmed by Papazian in TCJOHB and by many other homebrewers.  My old standby
is Munton and Fison.  I've had excellent results with M&F and it ferments out
well.  My typical FG is in the teens for Pale Ale (using 7 - 8 lbs of M&F
light).  Greg.


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Date: Fri, 4 Dec 1992 08:19:02 -0600
From: trl at photos.wustl.edu (Tom Leith MIR/ERL 362-6965)
Subject: St. Louis Zymurgy

>I'm going to be moving to the Greater St. Louis area in about 5 days.  Can
>anyone suggest worthwhile brewpubs, micros, and hb stores in the area?  What
>are the good local brands?  I don't want to waste any time!!!  Thanks
>Jim Jedrey

Welcome to St. Louis, Jim.  In St. Louis, many natives consider a beer not made 
by Anheuser Busch to be "imported".  A severe case of "buy American".  But 
things are looking up.

There is one brewpub in St. Louis, called (suprise) St. Louis Brewery.  Dave 
Miller, the author of two well-known books on homebrewing, is the brewmaster 
there.  The restaurant/bar part of the business is called _The Tap Room_.  It is 
located at 2100 Locust Street.  Telephone 314/241-BEER.  The beer is quite good, 
but the character is never "up front" or "you CAN'T miss it obvious".  Remember, 
this is the land where Bud is the King.  Dave says his biggest seller is the 
Wheat Ale, followed by a Pils.  This despite a really good Oatmeal Stout that's 
nearly always available.  See how that works?  A big cheesburger, plate of spicy 
fries, and a pint of your favorite will run you about $10.  Standard disclaimers 
apply.

Homebrew suppliers: There are two in St. Louis.  Their addresses and a couple 
comments were in yesterday's Digest, I think. Maybe the day before.  If you 
missed it, send me e-mail and I'll forward the info. Homebrewing is still 
technically illegal in Missouri, but it seems the State has bigger fish to fry, 
and they leave us alone.  Some people are working on this sad situation, though. 
Maybe  there'll be more suppliers once this vestige of prohibition is 
eliminated.  After that, we go after the extortionary tax laws, right?  $7 tax 
on a barrel for small producers.  I don't know what AB pays.  More, I suspect.  
Just think, at least $7 tax on each barrel of..... water!!

Good local brands? HaHaHaHaHaHa!!  The only *good* local brand is St. Louis 
Brewery's brand: "Schlafly".  This is of course, opinion.  An appeal to the 
majority would reveal Bud, Busch, Michelob, etc to be the good local brands.

Oh -- the St. Louis Brews homebrew club meets at the Maplewood Community Center 
the first Thrusday of each month at 7:30 PM.  If you want directions after you 
move here, just send e-mail to tell me where you're driving from, and I'll give 
you directions.

Welcome to town!

	t 



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Date:    Fri, 4 Dec 1992 9:47:20 -0500 (EST)
From: P_LABRIE at UNHH.UNH.EDU (Paul LaBrie)
Subject: re:plastic boilers,hot water heaters and floating mashtuns...

	I have been using a simple floating mash tun successfully for a number
of years now. Earlier I had mashed with a Burco but didn't find it to be very
"relaxing", mash-wise( lots of temperature spikes, etc.etc.) as well as boil-
wise (not enough "oomph").

	The device you describe sounds interesting but I wonder how well it 
would work with a step-mash.  Line's system is for simple infusion mashes only.
Bitters are really the only thing I brew (I'm a lazy kind of guy + I can't
relax enough to wait for a lager).  The reason this system works so well for a
simple  mash is that the large volume of water in which the mash vessel floats
effectively dampens any major changes in temperature.  The strike temperature
and ratio of water to goods that I typically use yields a mash temp of
151-153F.  After two hours in the immersion bath, I find that the temperature
of the mash will have only dropped to about 147-148F (the vessel is well
insulated + I don't add any additional heat during the mash). Your heating 
element would have to be capable of getting a large volume of water (approx.
5 gals is needed to float a mash kettle holding 7-8 lbs of grain + water)up to
temperature in short order. You mentioned this as a potential problem and, 
although I'm really not experienced in doing step mashes, I do know that
raising the temperature of 5 gals of water is a job.

	Where I live, electricity rates are outrageous.  I use a Cajun-cooker
type of arrangement, both for rapidity of boil as well as economy.  I also
realize that these devices would probably be frowned upon in the middle of an
apartment floor! :>)

 - paul -

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Date: Fri, 4 Dec 92 09:37:42 -0600
From: oconnor at ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (donald oconnor)
Subject: Dick Van Dyke?


Is it the real Dick Van Dyke who made the winning stout.  the photo
in zymurgy makes me think it's an imposter.  although my recollection
is that those van dyke boys are from Illinois.

also, Al touts the virtues of the new Lallemand dry beer yeasts. before
we fall for the fancy titles and nice product brochures, let's remember
that the same company has been making Doric for years and noone is 
raving about Doric.  I'm always skeptical when the ads give no
info whatsoever that would suggest the process has been changed or
cleaned up to produce better yeast.

I've only tasted one beer made with Windsor and it was poor.  not a very
scientific sample, but enough to deter me.

It's also noteworthy that the winning stout was made with Red STar 
dry champagne yeast, at least that's what's in zymurgy.  it's also
noteworthy that the recipe has an incredible 14+ ounces of hops and
licorice and molasses.  hardly a beer to even begin to look for 
off-flavors in.  Looks like a very original recipe and a beer that
could be set aside for a year.


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Date: Fri, 4 Dec 92 09:53:09 EST 
From: card at apollo.hp.com
Subject: hop utilization 



In experimenting with different hops styles, and getting help 
from Brew-digesters. 
                       

* pellets Utilization factor ~ 30 and don't require full boil 
ie. 20 minutes still yield approximately full utilization. 
    
should be boiled no longer than 45 minutes. 

* leaf UF ~ 25 and need ~ 60 minutes to obtain full utilization 
at 20 minutes, bitterness contribution is small. 

* plugs UF ~20 -same timing as leaf. 
           
* any hops in a typical high gravity boil yield a substantial reduction
  in UF. 25%? This is real important to consider when going to all-grain. 


Hops oz. =  gallons x IBU x 1.34		
 		      ---------------------- 	
     		    %Utilization x alpha			


                    4.5 if you assume UTilization of 30
                  /
                 /
  IBU = HBU's (3.75) --- this assumes a utilization factor of 25 
  HBU = IBU/ (3.75) --- this assumes a utilization factor of 25 


I'm still experimenting and would appreciate inputs. I believe this 
is important since most recipes don't call out hop style. therefore,
your AAU's could increase dramatically (30-50%) - More than enough 
to ruin a good effort. 

    
/Mal Card

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Date: Fri, 4 Dec 92 10:53:46 EST
From: rich at bedford.progress.com (Rich Lenihan)
Subject: Mash thickness, Blow-tube cleaning, Plastic cases

Mash thickness:

I've read differring opinions re: thin mash vs. thick mash.  Miller
states that thick mashes (1.33 qts water / lb. grain) encourages
initial starch conversion but discourages complete conversion.  Well,
as time goes on I find myself referring to Miller more and more and
my mashes are thick.  Also, a thick mash allows me to turn off the
stove when the mash reaches temp., cover and leave alone for 15-20
minutes, knowing that the thermal inertia of the mash will keep the
mash temp. within range.  For a recent batch, however, I mashed for 30
minutes at 122 F (approximately), then 90 minutes at 152 (again,
approximately) but conversion wasn't complete (according to iodine
test).  So, my brainstorm:  I heated about 1.5 gallons of water to 152
F and added it to the mash, stirred, covered, and let sit for another
30 minutes.  Voila!  Conversion complete.

Since then, I've done two mashes with a 30-minute sugar rest at the 
initial thickness (approx. 1-1.33qts/lb, I measure by consistency),
then decrease thickness (to about 2qts/lb) and mash for another 30
minutes, then mash-off at 168F.  Of course, I use less sparge water, 
but my extract efficiency has gone up (slightly) with these last batches.

I figure that this method gives me the best of both worlds - a thick
mash for initial starch conversion and a thin mash for complete
starch conversion.  The down side is that I have to twiddle with the
mash to keep the temp within range, but I can live with that.

Blow-tube cleaning:

I find a carboy brush to very good for 1" OD tubes.  Also, it's probably a 
good idea to replace your plastic tubing every so often.

Plastic Cases:

Some of the cardboard cases for my beer bottle collection are becoming
"structurally unsound".  I'd like to replace them with plastic cases.
These are like milk crates, but with slots for 24 beer/soda bottles.
I've seen them in Europe but not in the States.  Any ideas?

 -Rich


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Date: Fri, 4 Dec 1992 09:09:57 -0700
From: copeland at homebrew.atmos.colostate.edu (Jeff Copeland)
Subject: Phosphoric Acid and Glass (not to worry)

In HBD 1026 

>korz at iepubj.att.com
>Subject: Iodophor & glass
>
>Iodophor contains some iodine compound and phosphoric acid right?
>I faintly recall in Noonan's book, that phosphoric acid should not
>be used in contact with glass.  Can someone verify this?  I don't
>have my books here and Jed's post today triggered something in my
>head.  Perhaps we have something to worry about?
>Al.

Nothing to worry about, check the ingredients on any can of Coke, Dr.Pepper
etc.  You'll find phosphoric acid, its relatively mild, Miller talks about
its possible use to adjust pH.  Must be some other acid you're thinking of.

Jeffrey Copeland -- Atmospheric Science -- Colorado State University
- -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
     "The problem with the world is that everyone is a few drinks behind."
                                                         - Humphrey Bogart
- -------------------------------------------------------------------------------


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Date: 04 Dec 92 11:11:45 GMT
From: "Dowd-Brenton" <MSMAIL.DOWDB at TSOD.lmig.com>
Subject: Bottles

     About those screw off long-neck bottles - we got them up here in NH
as well (Bud anyway).  Big time bummer.  But with my last batch I
decided to try a couple of twist off's just for fun.  Using the 3/4
cup/per 5 gal batch primer method as opposed to priming each individual
bomb, er, I mean bottle, I havent had any explode. . . yet.
     Rumor has it there are several HBers around here doing it.  I'll
run right home tonight and try some and get back to you on carbonation,
ect!
     Bretster


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Date: Fri, 4 Dec 92 11:02:50 EST
From: chuck at synchro.com (Chuck Cox)
Subject: Re: Grafting Hops onto Marijuana roots?==>SuperHops?

30PCALVIN%UNCSPHVX.BITNET at VTVM2.CC.VT.EDU sez...
> 
> So,
> A long time ago at a party some guy told me that since hops and
> pot are the same type of plant you could graft them together and
> the resulting hop flowers would contain the THC that the MJ would
> have had.  Seemed suspect to me.  If it were true, and _I_ knew
> about it, it seemed that someone with lots of land up in Washington
> state would be growing the stuff (legally, I guess) and we'd see
> this stuff on the market, (and then splashed across the headlines
> of Time, Newsweek, and the like as the next "designer drug" that's
> infiltrating our schools).
> 
> Anybody ever hear of this being tried?  Did it work?

Hops & Cannabis can be grafted, but both plants develop their
interesting resins in the flowers, so a cannabis root won't produce THC
in hop flowers.  Or so I'm told B-)

- -- 
Chuck Cox <chuck at synchro.com>
Don't blame me, I voted Libertarian.

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Date: Fri, 4 Dec 92 10:42:46 EST
From: orgasm!davevi at uunet.UU.NET (David Van Iderstine)
Subject: Re: Grafting Hops onto Marijuana

Good Lord, can we put this hops/pot thread to bed already? The resin
glands of marijuana contain nearly all the THC, and form primarily on
the flower parts of the female plant. Grafting marijuana roots onto
hops plants, as I've said before, will NOT cause the hops plant to
form resin glands. It will form the same lupulin glands as a normal
hops plant. This grafting thing is a MYTH that's spread by people at
parties!



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Date: Fri, 4 Dec 92 10:24:18 -0600
From: hpfcla.fc.hp.com!melkor!rick (Rick Larson)
Subject: 1992 Minnesota Brew Fest winning recipes

I have compiled the 14 winning recipes (including Best
of Show) from the 1992 Minnesota Brew Fest.  If anyone
wants them, let me know via private email.  Please specify
either PostScript or ASCII (default will be ASCII).

The recipes will be distributed to the local homebrew
stores (Minneapolis MN) so you too can brew the winning
beer.

rick		rick at adc.com

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Date: Fri, 4 Dec 92 08:47:07 -0800
From: sag5004 at yak.ca.boeing.com (Ford Prefect)
Subject: Bottle sources.

Bottle sources have recently been mentioned and I thought that I would
add my two cents worth.

I walked away with just under 40 cases (12 bottles per case) of Sapporo
and Kirin bottles from a local Japaneese restaurant.  I had a beer with
dinner and asked what happened to the bottles, and could I have some if
there wasn't a deposir or something.  They asked how many I wanted, and
I told them as much as they had.  40 cases was what fit in my truck :-)
They said if I needed more just come back anytime.

I also went to a local german place called the snitzlebonk (sp?) and have
acquired a case or two at a time of pauliner bottles.  Mexican resautrants
are good places to get dos equies and similar bottles.

Most of the restaurants I have asked have been quite nice.  They think I
am hauling off trash for free.  Now if I can just figure out how to get
soda kegs this easy :-)

stuart (I don't need no more bottles) galt    boeing computer services
sag5004 at yak.boeing.com                        bellvue washington
(206) 865-3764                                or home (206) 361-0190
#include <standard/disclaim.h>
I don't know what they say, they don't know what I say...


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Date: Fri, 04 Dec 1992 13:00:45 EST
From: connell at vax.cord.edu
Subject: Thomas Hardy Ale

Does anyone have a good recipe for Thomas Hardy Ale that is all or
mostly grain based?  I have the Dave Line recipe for a 2 gallon batch
but it is based on English pale malt whereas I am using American 2-row
lager malt.  I am thinking I will need to add some crystal malt to make
up for the lighter roast in the lager malt, but I see that Jackson
says Thomas Hardy Ale is made without any colored malts.  Has anyone
gotten close?  I would also appreciate any good recipes for barley wine
and would be especially interested in recipes that clone Big Foot or
Foghorn.

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Date:    Fri, 4 Dec 1992 13:28:52 -0500 (EST)
From: R_GELINAS at UNHH.UNH.EDU (Russ Gelinas)
Subject: smooth stout

  I've made a stout that has been called "Guinness-like, but smoother,
like a draft".  A nice enough compliment, but not what I was trying for.  
It had 1 lb. of roasted barley (about 10%), so I was surprised by it's 
lack of "bite" (I like that bite).  I mashed all the grains.  My theory is 
that the sparge filtered out most of the tannins from the rb.  Steeping the 
rb after the sparge would give back the "bite".  So, mash for the smoothness of 
draft, steep for the bite of the bottle variety.  The wonders of homebrewing.

Russ

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Date: Fri, 4 Dec 92 13:30:16 -0500
From: owen at sbcs.sunysb.edu (Owen Kaser)
Subject: Cleaning Blow-off Tubing


To clean 1" ID blowoff hose, I've had good luck by forcing
a plug of paper towel through the hose a few times:

Wet a piece of paper towel, and form it into a plug that fits
fairly snugly in the tube.  Now put the end of the hose over
your faucet tap:  if you have a garden-hose adaptor on your
sink, the tube should fit snugly over it.  
Use one hand as a hose clamp (omit at your peril), while
turning on the hot water.  Let the pressure force the plug
through, scouring the goop off.  Repeat as necessary.

It's fast and seems to work for me.  I also have pushed the plug
in a couple of inches, and poured bleach into this space, before
putting the tube onto the faucet.  I don't know if this helped, though.







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Date: Fri, 4 Dec 92 11:28:49 EST
From: chuck at synchro.com (Chuck Cox)
Subject: Re: Rogue AI programs

korz at iepubj.att.com sez...
> 
> Don't trust every rogue AI program that comes along.  They are not
> organic like us and don't have to worry about their health.  The
> fact is, that THC, the active ingredient in cannabis, enters your
> body and never leaves.  I have a problem with anything that does this.
> Scientists have reported that the THC builds up in your body (I've
> heard in your brain and in your genetals, but this could be propaganda)
> and can cause problems down the road.  My advice is to stick to hops.

You are kidding right?

Just in case you're not, the above is not a 'fact'.  There are no
reputable studies that prove or even suggest that THC stays in your body
forever.  Hell, THC is so unstable it breaks down in hours.  There are
some non-psychoactive metabolates that will stick around for a week or
two, but that's it.  In fact, there is absolutely no proof of any
long-term effects from marijuana, even though most researchers believe
smoking is harmful. 

As consumers of an oft-maligned drug (alcohol), we should be very wary
when prohibitionists start making absurd claims about other drugs. 

- -- 
Chuck Cox <chuck at synchro.com>
Don't blame me, I voted Libertarian.

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Date: Fri, 4 Dec 92 19:18:44 GMT
From: Conn Copas <C.V.Copas at lut.ac.uk>
Subject: Re : floating mashtuns

Wayde Nie writes :

>        I have been thinking of a setup similar to that proposed
> by Jeff Berton in HBD1023 and based on a suggestion in Dave
> Line's, 'The Big Book of Brewing' for a floating mash tun.
 
My experience is that a metal tun supported by blocks conducts the heat much
faster than a plastic tun, and, besides, floating the tun is a bit of a dubious
proposition anyway. A thermostat is largely superfluous as the total volume of
goods plus water jacket has such a high thermal inertia. Regarding boiling, use
the highest wattage element for which your wall socket is rated. A 3000W
element will boil 5 galls of cold water in around 1/2 hour. I don't really
understand the complaints about this method being slow, as few stove top
elements put out any more power. I also don't understand the complaints about
wort caramelising on the element, unless people are pouring undissolved extract
in there. (Mashing with the grain in contact with a naked element is another
matter).

- -- 
Conn V Copas
Loughborough University of Technology          tel : +44 509 263171  ext 4164
Computer-Human Interaction Research Centre     fax : +44 509 610815      
Leicestershire  LE11 3TU              e-mail - (Janet):C.V.Copas at uk.ac.lut   
G Britain                                      (Internet):C.V.Copas at lut.ac.uk


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Date: 04 Dec 1992 11:58:13 -0500
From: Chris McDermott <mcdermott at draper.com>
Subject: How to build CP bottle fill

 How to build CP bottle filler
A while back, I think I remember, someone posted detailed instructions (or
offered to give them) on building a CP bottle filler for some short change. 
Could the person who offered these please send me the instructions.

Thank you!
_
Christopher K. McDermott                  Internet:  mcdermott at draper.com
C.S. Draper Laboratory, Inc.              Voice:     (617) 258-2362
555 Technology Square                     FAX:       (617) 258-1131
Cambridge, MA 02149 (USA)



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Date: Fri, 4 Dec 92 19:51:05 GMT
From: Conn Copas <C.V.Copas at lut.ac.uk>
Subject: Re : quality of extract varies wildly

One of the problems I have noticed with many extract brew pubs is that even
high gravity brews seem to taste thin and insubstantial. This had led me to
theorise that some of the problems of extract (apart from adulteration) are due
to overboiling during the condensation stage, ie, too much protein gets 
precipitated. It would be interesting to test whether diastatic malts, boiled
under vacuum at low temperatures, are liable to the same problems. Another 
possible implication is that powders may contain 'less' than syrups. It also
calls into question the advisability of homebrewers boiling the extract even
further. I made a series of mini brews in milk bottles last week, which 
basically involved pouring boiling water onto extract powder and hop pellets,
then fermenting. All cleared without a hitch (and had adequate bitterness,
incidentally). Maybe one sign of extract quality, contrary to some peoples'
notions, is the amount of trub which it liberates. Another yardstick, again
somewhat unintuitive, could be lightness of colour. That is, if your taste buds
suggest the darker colour is not due to use of roasted malts or caramel, then
it is possible that the extract has become oxidised, which generally means less
malt flavour. 

- -- 
Conn V Copas
Loughborough University of Technology          tel : +44 509 263171  ext 4164
Computer-Human Interaction Research Centre     fax : +44 509 610815      
Leicestershire  LE11 3TU              e-mail - (Janet):C.V.Copas at uk.ac.lut   
G Britain                                      (Internet):C.V.Copas at lut.ac.uk


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Date:    Fri, 4 Dec 1992 12:48:16 -0500 (EST)
From: R_GELINAS at UNHH.UNH.EDU (Russ Gelinas)
Subject: diacytl, dough-in, freezing

   JimG has a diacetyl problem, and described his final gravity as 1.017,
which is high for medium-strength beers.  I think the FG may be an indication
of a weak ferment, caused by lack of oxygen.  Lack of O2 will also increase
diacetyl production (or is it decrease the amount of re-absorbtion of diacetyl
by the yeast).  Either way, the beer is buttery.  Solution: Aerate the cooled
unfermented wort better.

   Most all-grainers seem to add water to the grist.  I add grist to the
water.  Seems this way would allow better mixing, with less dry spots.  I
see very few (or no) clumps when I stir it up.

   Freezing beer to concentrate it will also concentrate the "bad" things,
such as fusel alcohols, which can be toxic.  My question is, what is the
difference between drinking a glass of concentrate, as opposed to drinking
the 6 beers it took to make that concentrate?

Russ

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Date: Fri, 4 Dec 92 15:35:35 EST
From: garti at mrg.xyplex.com (Mark Garti mrgarti at xyplex.com)
Subject: step mash times

pappazian recommends 10 minutes at 66C and 15 minutes at 70C.
that's 25 minutes of conversion time, assuming instantaneous
temp change.  recently i've read postings where people were
using conversion times up to an hour.  is this much time
necessary?  does it promote higher extract efficency?  is it
grain dependent, i've been using the readily available 2 row
harrington's.
Mark    mrgarti at xyplex.com

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Date: Fri, 4 Dec 92 13:05:13 CST
From: kizior at whitefish.rtsg.mot.com (Paul Kizior)
Subject: funny taste??

I have a question....... I've made four batches of homebrew so far and 
they all seem to have something in common -----> a slight off taste and
smell.  The taste and smell seem to be kinda "yeasty".  The smell is 
exactly the same but not as strong as when you leave a 1/2 inch of brew
on the bottom of the bottle and swirl it to mix it with the sediment.  
I am very frustrated in that not only it has this slight "off smell" but
it can taste very "home-made".  The thing is I use single stage 
fermentation with no blowoff tube.  I chill boiled water, add it to the 
fermenter, add the slightly cooled wort to the fermenter, and pitch the 
yeast (the temperature was within range for an ale or lager).  I put it
in the 7 gallon plastic fermenter and put an airlock on top.  Fermentation
usually starts within 24 hours and I let it sit in the same plastic
fermenter for approx. 10-12 days.  At that point I bottle.  I've tried 
ales and lagers (both were fermented in the basement - temp 62 deg F).  The
lager was the liquid California type and ales were rehydrated dry type.  Can
anyone see an obvious flaw in this procedure?  Can it be no blowoff tube?
No secondary?  Anyone have the same problems?  Any fixes? 

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Date: Fri, 4 Dec 92 09:00 CST
From: arf at ddsw1.mcs.com (Jack Schmidling)
Subject: Pots, Pot and Hubris

 
 >From: SCHREMPP_MIKE/HP4200_42 at pollux.svale.hp.com
 >Subject: Brewpots
 
 >Does anyone out there know a reason I shouldn't buy a 10 gallon aluminum
 pot and have it electroplated with copper instead of going for stainless
 steel? Seems like it might be cheaper, and there might even be a way to do
 the plating at home. Any thoughts?
 
 Only thought I have is please let us know what you find out.  Especially the 
 do it at home idea.   It would be a real boon to the craft if it is 
 practical.
 
 >From: tony at spss.com (Tony Babinec)
 
 >I'm surprised no one pointed out an obvious parallel between hop
 and hemp.  
 
 Just a few odd pointers here...
 
 > The female cannabis plant is kept isolated from the male plant so as not to 
 seed.
 
 The vast majority of "hemp" is grown for its fiber and not the flowers.   
 From the growers' point of view, hops has the advantage of vegetative 
 propagation and a perenial growth habbit.  This means that one can stay in 
 the hops business forever without ever allowing pollination.  
 
 This is not true of pot.  If you do not allow some pollination, you get no 
 seeds and extinction is inevitable.  I believe most pot is harvested as soon 
 as the flowers open and I do not see pollination as an issue.  The female 
 plant is supposed to have more THC but as they must be planted from seeds, 
 there is no way of predicting the sex.  The male plant can be identified at 
 flowering time and a removed by growers interested in maximum potency but not 
 by those motivated by maximum tonnage.
 
 >From: akcs.chrisc at vpnet.chi.il.us (chris campanelli)
 
 >As homebrewers we have a responsibilty to promote homebrewing and
 to financially support quality commercial brewing.
 
 I was with you 100% up to this point.  It seems to me that as hombrewers we 
 have only the responsiblity to support homebrewing.  If I never spend another 
 cent on "quality commercial brewing", I will consider my victory complete.
 ............
 
 Now for something completely different.......
 
 Sometime ago I suggested that one might be able to sterilize petri dishes in 
 a nuker in mere seconds, without water because the organisms are so small 
 that they would be instantly fried.  Well, in an unscientific experiment, I 
 have concluded otherwise.
 
 My wife noted a fruitfly in the nuker and made several attempts to shoo it 
 out before heating a cup of coffee.  It persisted in flying back in so she 
 gave up and nuked the coffee for one min.  When she opened the door to take 
 it out, guess what FLEW out?
 
 js
 
 
 

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End of HOMEBREW Digest #1027, 12/07/92