FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Rob Gardner, Digest Coordinator


Contents:
  all-Unix snobs (Rob Bradley)
  Re: Archives  ( Neil Mager )
  Detergents etc. (Ulick Stafford)
  Ulick's Criticism of MI Deposit Laws (Dan Wood)
  Celis expanding to other States (Dewey Coffman)
  Brewpub tour in San francisco? (John R Costelloe +1 908 949 2688)
  Re: QC, Archive, Snobs, Iodophor (Drew Lawson)
  Wild Yeast (George J Fix)
  Poe on Ale (Paul dArmond)
  Dry Hopping (Raymond Taylor)
  hops identification ("Spencer W. Thomas")
  S.S's Taddy Porter (Mike Deliman)
  Subject: BBW wins again! (John Adams)
  hop plugs/bad memory (Brian Bliss)
  Re: fining -> diacetyl (korz)
  Morris Hanbury Hop Plugs (korz)
  A Beer Odyssey (Act III) (Richard Stueven)
  Re: Soured (?) Wort (korz)
  Level of Malt Modification (Lee Menegon)
  Costs / Cold Break (Jeff Frane)
  Growing your own hops (Kevin Krueger)
  re: idophor, rinse/reuse  (R.) Cavasin" <cav at bnr.ca>
  hops in outer space... (Todd M. Williams)
  still more BAA information (BadAssAstronomer)
  Another Mash-out Idea ("Rad Equipment")


Send articles for __publication_only__ to homebrew at hpfcmi.fc.hp.com
  (Articles are published in the order they are received.)
Send UNSUBSCRIBE and all other requests, ie, address change, etc.,
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If your account is being deleted, please be courteous and unsubscribe first.
Archives are available via anonymous ftp from sierra.stanford.edu.
  (Those without ftp access may retrieve files via mail from
  listserv at sierra.stanford.edu. Send HELP as the body of a
  message to that address to receive listserver instructions.)
Please don't send me requests for back issues - you will be silently ignored.
For "Cat's Meow" information, send mail to lutzen at novell.physics.umr.edu



		IMPORTANT NEWS -- PLEASE READ
		-----------------------------

There will be nobody reading mail sent to homebrew-request during the
period Feb 8 through approx. Feb 28. This means that any requests for
changes or cancellations will not be handled until the end of the month.
Subscription requests will continue to be handled automatically, and the
digest will continue to be sent automatically, barring any computing
device catastrophes. So if you send a message here and get no immediate
reply, or if the digest stops suddenly, please do not panic. Just be
patient.

ps. and please try to behave yourselves while I'm gone ;-)



----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Feb 93 09:26:06 -0500
From: bradley at adx.adelphi.edu (Rob Bradley)
Subject: all-Unix snobs

In hbd1973, arf sez:

>...Many of us barely literate computer users have no 
>idea of how to access a FAQ, if indeed it is something we can get at will.
>
>Compuserve stores just about everything of any value in library files that 
                              ----------------------- (!!!)
>are easily accessible but cost an arm and a leg to retrieve....
 
In hbd1075,

>>From: neilm at juliet.ll.mit.edu ( Neil Mager )
>>Subject: Special Archive Proposal
>
>Let me make another proposal.  How bout explaining what an archive is and how 
>one goes about accessing it before you expand on a special archive.
 
                      
 I can't speak for "electronic community" and you may be right but it is
 also worth while to put the issue into proper perspective.
 
 Keeping in mind that lots of people don't know about archives because
 they are lazy, paranoid or il-informed and further keeping in mind that
 Compuserve, as opposed to the "electronic community" has a vested interest
 in maintaining the status quo because its revenues would dry up without
 uneducated users, it is worth noting that some Compuserve users are excellent
 people, so I am told.   One also presumes that lots of Compuserve users use
 Compuserve because they know how to make excellent e-mail.
 
 Having said that, I suggest it is the Compuserve users' insecurity, 
 sensitivity and paranoia that creates the image that Unix-freaks are snobs.

Apologies to "real" Compuserve users.  I couldn't resist :-)

Rob (bradley at adx.adelphi.edu)

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Date: Thu, 11 Feb 93 09:45:00 EST
From: neilm at juliet.ll.mit.edu ( Neil Mager )
Subject: Re: Archives 


Jack Schmidling writes:
 >>From: neilm at juliet.ll.mit.edu ( Neil Mager )
 >>Subject: Special Archive Proposal
 >
 > Let me make another proposal.  How bout explaining what an archive is
 > and how one goes about accessing it before you expand on a special archive.

  Archives are just a collection of files located on some system
  (with generous owners). All the HBD digests back to 1988 are
  stored on sierra.stanford.edu. They also allow to us
  access any previous digests via email or ftp. 

  This is at the top of each HBD:

  > Archives are available via anonymous ftp from sierra.stanford.edu.
  > (Those without ftp access may retrieve files via mail from
  > listserv at sierra.stanford.edu. Send HELP as the body of a
  > message to that address to receive listserver instructions.)

  If you don't have ftp access, simply send mail to
  listserv at sierra.stanford.edu and you can receive the files.

  Here's a couple of examples to put in the body of your email:

 > index homebrew

  The listserver will email you the list of all homebrew related files you can
  receive.

 > get homebrew 1988.index

  The listserver will email you the a file containing the subjects
  of each HBD posting, much like the top of the HBD you receive
  daily.

 > get homebrew 1074

  The listserver will email the HBD from Feb 10, 1993, HBD # 1074.



Richard Stueven writes:
 > In HBD# 1071, ex-beginner Russ Gelinas recommends:
 > 
 > >Read *all* the HBD archives.  Yes, all.  IMHO,
 > >the HBD archives are perhaps the richest source of homebrewing info
 > >available.
 > 

   I completely agree. One of the advantages of the HBD over a
   book is the discussion that occurs. You get many different
   perspectives rather than the authors favorite.

 > Of course, the first things we loaded into the system were the entire
 > HBD archive, the ASCII Cat's Meow, the publist, and tons of other
 > net.brew_stuff, and we update it monthly.  Mighty informative!  Mighty
 > useful!

   Well, I'm jealous :-) . Unfortunatly, we all do not have disc
   space available for the HBD archives, which is why its so nice
   having the it archived for us on sierra. 

   This is also why I think it would be nice have a few special
   archives files containing all the threads on some popular
   topics that come up frequently. The FAQ could reference some of
   these rather than briefly answering the questions or
   referencing the many hbd's that discussed the topic.

- --  Neil
===============================================================================
Neil M. Mager
MIT Lincoln Laboratory       Lexington, MA
  Weather Radar - Group 43

Internet                    <neilm at juliet.ll.mit.edu>
Voice                       (617) 981-4803
===============================================================================



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Date: Thu, 11 Feb 93 09:53:44 EST
From: Ulick Stafford <ulick at beethoven.helios.nd.edu>
Subject: Detergents etc.

Al referred to a previous posting about removing Chocolate oil
and made the excellent suggestion to use washing soda (sodium
carbonate).  I'll chime in and also suggest TSP (trisodium
phosphate) readily available in hardware stores as an oil paint
stripper, or caustic soda (sodium hydroxide).  These strong
bases are used in commercial practice for cleaning and sterilizing
and by us as label strippers.  They should be used according to
directions with rubber gloves.  These suckers will strip the oil
from your hands as easily as from the dirty vessel and you'll
need quite a bit of vaseline intensive care to get it back.

Don`t use soaps or detergents on your brewing epuipment.  The 
reaction that occurs above is basically soap making.  The fatty acids
that forms the oils (attached to glycols) react in an acid-base
neutralization with the base to form fatty acid ions, which are 
long chains ytpically 16-18 carbons long.  In water these will
form micelles with the negaticely charged acid group on the outside
and the hydrophobic hydrocarbons within.  Organic material can
dissolve within this micelles, so tha addition of soaps to water
allows insoluble organics to be dissolved.

Detergents are similar, except stronger acid groups such as sulponic
groups are on the end of the organic chain.  There are also non ionic
and cationic surfactants to go along with the usual anionic types when
an acid rather than basic environment is desired (Pert shampoo and
conditioner in one is an household example of this).

Basically domestic detergents and soaps are relatively kind to human
skin, or have other additives.  But in homebrew equipment they will
leave a residue that will knock that head straight out of your beer.
It is nearly impossible to remove a soap layer from the wall of a 
plastic bucket.  Stick with strong bases for tough cleanup - and
use rubber gloves.  They are cleaner and stronger.

Ulick Stafford

PS on thurs all submissions were made on Tuesday.  hmmm - and there
isn't even a maltmill givaway going on.  When the cats away everything
goes to hell!

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Date: Thu, 11 Feb 93 09:08:55 CST
From: wood at ranger.rtsg.mot.com (Dan Wood)
Subject: Ulick's Criticism of MI Deposit Laws

   While I have enjoyed Ulick's posts in the past, and benefitted from
the wealth of information he provides to this digest, I must take
exception to his description of Michigan's deposit law as "inane".

   I live in Illinois, a state with neither bottle deposit nor blue
laws.  I frequently visit friends and relatives in Michigan.  The
contrast between the two states in startling in many respects, but
let me focus on the difference this is entirely due to the bottle
deposit.

   In Michigan, you will find very little broken glass, nor will you 
find litter from empty cans or cardboard packaging.  It's rare for people
to throw away their empties, instead they return them for cash.  In the
rare occasions where they are discarded as litter, local kids 
enthusiastically gather them and return them to collect the deposit.
You wouldn't think it would work this well, but apparently the locals
have figured out that those dimes add up.

   In contrast, virtually no area of Illinois is immune to this litter.
Even residential neighborhoods routinely have empties (presumably from
"cruising" young drinkers) discarded on street corners and in front yards.
Local parks typically have hazardous areas created by broken glass.  In
my experience, this problem also exists in other states that don't have 
deposit laws.

   Although Michigan's deposit laws have created some inconvenience for
retailers, I feel it's justified, since they profit from the sales.  It
costs the consumer nothing so long as he acts responsibly and collects
and returns the empties, which should be done regardless.  The deposit
simply provides incentive to "do the right thing".  Obviously social
conscience doesn't produce this incentive elsewhere.

   Please excuse the long post, and I certainly don't mean to flame, but
the lack of deposit laws in other states is a pet peeve of mine.  I can't
see condemning such an effective system simply because of minor 
inconvenience suffered by out-of-state visitors.  Should anyone feel they 
must debate this issue with me, please do so via private email, this is 
the last HBD bandwidth I will expend on this topic.

   Stepping off my soap box now, relaxing, and still _brewing_ great beers 
from extract,
								Dan Wood
								wood at rtsg.mot.com

PS: The worst beer thread is entertaining, but does anyone out there
_really_ think they can make worse beer than Miller Lite?  I think that
WWB is the one area where Budmilloors has an edge on us.  :)

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Date: Thu, 11 Feb 93 6:41:36 CST
From: dewey at sooner.ctci.com (Dewey Coffman)
Subject: Celis expanding to other States


			Roll out the Celis
	Austin brewery to boost sales and production
	   Austin American-Statesman Statesman, 2/9/93

	Celis Brewery plans to introduce its beers to 30 states and several
overseas markets by the end of the year, a move that would more than
triple its production from 8,000 barrels to at least 25,000.  
	The Austin-made beers now are sold in six states and Washington, D.C. 
This month, the company plans to begin distribution in six more, including
Colorado, Illinois, Indiana and New York.  
	We think 1994 will be a very excellent year," said Christine Calis, 
brewery president.  At the same time the privately held company is contracting 
with several U.S.  distributors, it is working on sales leads in Europe and 
Asia, Celis said. She said she expects to place the beers in Taiwan, China,
England, France and Holland by 1994.  
	Celis began brewing last year and launched its beers -- Celis White, 
Cells Pale Bock and Celis Golden in May. A fourth product, Celis Grand Cru, 
was introduced in December.
	Cells' 1992 revenues, which represent about a half year of sales, were 
$550,000, brewery officials said. This year, the brewery expects sales to climb 
to about $3 million.  
[much deleted]

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Date: Thu, 11 Feb 93 10:21:24 EST
From: jrcost at hogpa.ho.att.com (John R Costelloe +1 908 949 2688)
Subject: Brewpub tour in San francisco?

I've heard rumors that someone has organized a brewpub tour in the
San Francisco area. Does anyone have any information on this? I'll
be in the area for about a week starting February 20.
I would also appreciate any recommendations for "must see" good beer
type bars (lots of local microbrew beers on tap) in San Francisco
and San Jose.
Thanks in advance.

John

P.S. It's going to be nice getting out of New Jersey for a while!

att!hogpa!jrcost
(908) 949-2688

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Date: Thu, 11 Feb 93 07:54:30 PST
From: lawson at acuson.com (Drew Lawson)
Subject: Re: QC, Archive, Snobs, Iodophor


> From arf at ddsw1.mcs.com (Jack Schmidling)

>  One final point, I posted the same article to Compuserve and received not a 
>  single negative comment.  Again, I am not sure what this portends but it is 
>  food for thought.

I haven't been on for a couple weeks, so I didn't see it there.  I
would like to point out that there is a great difference between
CompuServe and the Digest.  That is that most CIS users do not read all
the message threads.  They use navigator programs to reduce connect
time and generally select message threads by subject.  Messages on the
Digest (actually, any digest or mailing list) go to everybody.

Also, of course, the Digest has developed ARF antibodies and will
likely react to even borderline messages if they are from you.


Drew Lawson                      If you're not part of the solution,
lawson at acuson.com                you're part of the precipitate

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Date: Thu, 11 Feb 93 10:08:17 -0600
From: gjfix at utamat (George J Fix)
Subject: Wild Yeast

It is my opinion that the major open problem in brewing microbiology today
is the formulation of an accurate, practical, and rapid media for the
detection of nonculture yeast. The problem is one of a needle in a
haystack. We pitch ale yeast at the 5-10 million cell per ml (10-15 for
lagers), yet we want to detect contaminants at the 1- 10 cell/ml range.
In commercial work, even lower levels of detection are required (typically
in the cells per 100 ml. range).

This problem has been solved for bacteria. Cycloheximide, sometimes known
as actidione, added in very low levels to any of the suitable growth media
(WLN, NBB, UBA, et al) will nicely inhibit yeast (culture and otherwise)
without affecting bacteria. What is needed is something like this for wild 
yeast.

Simply streaking samples from a slurry on a media like WLN is only going to
give a plate full of culture yeast. I have done this more times than I would 
like to admit, and have found in spite of the color indicators, spotting the
one in a million is next to impossible. Gross contamination can be detected,
but direct microscopy, and in fact one's own nose, work as well in these cases.

The two following approaches have been suggested for small scale brewers:

   1. Rodney Morris> Incrementally add actidione to a growth media starting
      at extremely low levels. This, just like all Rodney's ideas, is
      terrific. It, however, is an extremely tedious procedure that for a long
      list of reasons can only be done in a professional lab. I use it only
      as a last resort, only at my university, and only if someone is paying
      me to do this work! 

   2. Other inhibitors> A variety of inhibitors have been proposed like
      copper sulfate. These have been very effective in the detection of
      strains like S. diastaticus. However and alas, there are saccharomyces
      strains, quite common in both home and pub brewing, which are inhibited
      along with culture yeast. Murphy's law suggests that these are the folks
      that bring us the "funky homebrew" taste.

For those at Cornell on this network, you should be aware that some very
exciting work is being done in your Food Science Dept. by Dr. Karl Siebert,
the Chairman of the program and a very distinguished brewing scientist. His
group has come up with a new medium (cadaverine, lysine, ethylamine, nitrate)
that could be what we are looking for. Now if you folks could just recruit
Dr. Jean-Xavier Guinard from Penn. State, you would start to rival Munich!

George Fix


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Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1993 08:31:38 -0800 (PST)
From: Paul dArmond <paulf at henson.cc.wwu.edu>
Subject: Poe on Ale

Last August, Mike Hall used the following quote, attributed to E.A. Poe,
in his sig.  Mike though he got it from Guy McConnell.

Fill with mingled cream and amber, I will drain that glass again.
Such hilarious visions clamber through the chamber of my brain--
Quaintest thoughts -- queerest fancies come to life and fade away;
What care I how time advances:  I am drinking ale today.
                                            -Edgar Allen Poe

I've searched for the source for this in Poe's writings and have come up
blank.  It certainly is similar to Poe's style.  Where did this come from?
It deserves to go on a beer label.  Would the ATF approve it, or would the
abusive altruists ban it?

Paul.


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Date:         Thu, 11 Feb 93 10:59:34 CST
From: Raymond Taylor <NU028463 at VM1.NODAK.EDU>
Subject:      Dry Hopping



     I have been brewing for a couple of years, now, and consider
myself to be an intermediate to advanced brewer.  However, one
topic seems to elude my understanding; that is DRY HOPPING.
     I have Dry Hopped several batches, with good results, but
the hops effect on fermentation is what I can't figure out.  Each
time I have Dry Hopped  (I have always used pellets), seemingly
dead fermentation restarts, and continues slowly for quite some
time.  (This is not to be confused with the rapid release of
dissolved CO2 that can occur soon after the addition of the
hops.)

    I have a list of possibilities I have thought of, and would
like to get the HBD's opinions on them:
1.   The Hops introduce wild yeasts that can digest the heavy
     remaining sugars.  (I haven't noticed any off-flavors).
2.   The Hops contain some sort of enzyme that will break down
     the heavy sugars, to some the yeast can handle.  (I have
     seen gravities drop further than I expected.)
3.   The Hops provide a matrix for the yeast to attach to, and be
     more exposed to the wort.  (Similar to Beechwood?)
4.   The Hops contain a yeast nutrient.  (Or maybe simple
     sugars?)
5.   YOUR ideas here: ______________________________.

Thanks for any ideas.
Carl Eidbo

SINCE I DON'T HAVE ACCESS TO USENET PLEASE SEND ANY PERSONAL
RESPONSES TO RAY TAYLOR (NU028463 at NDSUVM1) OR POST TO HBD.

YOU MIGHT TRY SENDING E-MAIL TO EIDBO at MILO.NODAK.EDU. CARL MIGHT
BE ABLE TO RECEIVE MAIL AT THIS ADDRESS BUT HE DOESN'T HAVE SEND
CAPABILITIES.    I WILL FORWARD ANY INFO YOU SEND DIRECTLY TO ME!


RAY

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Date: Thu, 11 Feb 93 12:34:49 EST
From: "Spencer W. Thomas" <Spencer.W.Thomas at med.umich.edu>
Subject: hops identification

There was a question a couple of days ago about identifying unknown
hops growing in someone's yard.

If the hops came from seed, the probability is essentially zero that
they are one of the "recognized" varieties.  Hops are normally
propagated vegetatively, that is, from cuttings of a "parent" plant.
All hops from a given "cultivar" are genetically identical.  Plants
grown from seed, even if both parents were the same, will have a
different genetic makeup, and therefore different flavor, alpha acid
content, and other characteristics.

If, however, the hops were planted by a homebrewer, then there's a
chance they are of a recognized variety, so it doesn't hurt to try to
identify them.

The bottom line is this: you will probably have to experiment with
them to determine their bittering and flavor characteristics.

=Spencer W. Thomas 		|  Info Tech and Networking, B1911 CFOB, 0704
   "Genome Informatician"	|  Univ of Michigan, Ann Arbor, MI 48109
Spencer.W.Thomas at med.umich.edu	|  313-764-8065, FAX 313-764-4133

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Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1993 09:50:55 -0800 (PST)
From: Mike Deliman <miked at wrs.com>
Subject: S.S's Taddy Porter


Hi All,

I just looked through our brew archives, looking for a recipe for
Samuel Smith's Taddy Porter, and unfortunately came up empty handed.

If anyone out there has a recipe, either extract or full-mash, I'd appreciate
if those kind souls would email me a copy!

Thanks much,

   mike

P.S. Keep us informed, Chuck!
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mike Deliman   | Save water | Starve a lawyer - boycott Sam Adams Beer.
miked at wrs.com  | drink      | "Koch has introduced more lawsuits than beer
 ...!wrs!miked  | homebrew!  | styles in the past year." - Chuck "Boston" Cox

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Date: Thu, 11 Feb 93 11:12:18 -0700
From: John Adams <j_adams at hpfcjca.sde.hp.com>
Subject: Subject: BBW wins again!

> I am thinking of starting a new brewery, "The Adams Family Boston
> Brewing Company".  Any interested investors? Any interested attorneys?

Hey I'm interested and my name is Adams!  That should keep Koch's cronnies
away 8^)


John Adams

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Date: Thu, 11 Feb 93 12:16:30 CST
From: bliss at csrd.uiuc.edu (Brian Bliss)
Subject: hop plugs/bad memory

>First of all, thanks for all the charts and formulae for hbus -> ibus
>given boiling time, S.G., etc.  I do still have a question however.  I
>have seen that pellets have different utilization than whole hops (both
>in this forum and in some of the homebrew books); indeed hop plugs have
>yet another utilization rate.

Hop plugs have the same utilization rate as loose leaf hops,
but they keep better.  i.e. the AA% content stamped on the package
actually means somehting.  You should multiply the AA% on loose
leaf hops by anything from .7-.9 (typically) to compensate for for
the drop in AA during storage before plugging the # into the table.

>I was at G.W. Kent on Saturday, so I asked them about hops plugs.
>Randy said they had added them to their catalog this year, but then
>were unable to get any from the supplier.  Something about a bad crop
>this year.  So, G.W. Kent is not shipping hops plugs at this time.  If
>you thought you got some with the G.W. Kent label, you must be
>confused.  The only ones I've seen are imported by Crosby & Baker.

Yes, I was reciting from memory, since my brewery is at home and I
was at work.  The plugs were from Morris & Handbury (sp?).  They
have a blue & white label as does Kent, and...

along the same lines:

lawson at acuson.com (Drew Lawson) writes:
>> The yeast in Chimay is not a single strain.  It is either 3 or 5.  I
>Yea, I was wrong.  That's what I get for trying to be helpful and
>posting from a year old memory.

Wow! Only a year old and you're already brewing and using a computer?

bb


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Date: Thu, 11 Feb 93 12:13 CST
From: korz at iepubj.att.com
Subject: Re: fining -> diacetyl

Russ writes:
>   I'd vote that adding finings early on in the secondary is what is
>causing the high diacetyl in your beer.  In fact, this is just what happens
>with Samuel Smith beers, except their yeast flocs out because of the
>nature of their slate fermentation vessels.  Give the yeast more time
>in suspension in the secondary to reduce the diacetyl.

I believe it's the highly-flocculent yeast strain that they use at the
Tadcaster Brewery (Samuel Smith's) rather than the slate "squares" that
causes the yeast to floc out early.  Someone (Darryl maybe?) reported
that they use some kind of hand-held pumping system to push the yeast
back into suspension.

Al.

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Date: Thu, 11 Feb 93 12:29 CST
From: korz at iepubj.att.com
Subject: Morris Hanbury Hop Plugs

Spencer writes:
>were unable to get any from the supplier.  Something about a bad crop
>this year.  So, G.W. Kent is not shipping hops plugs at this time.  If
>you thought you got some with the G.W. Kent label, you must be
>confused.  The only ones I've seen are imported by Crosby & Baker.

I can verify that this was a bad year for hops in europe and that the
US importer (GW Kent's, Crosby & Baker's, and L. D. Carlson's supplier)
is Morris Hanbury, who only sells wholesale by the way, is not shipping
large quantities of plugs.  They said that since their supply is so small
this year, that they could not offer cases as they ususally do, so that
all their customers could have some.  Perhaps because G.W.Kent was not
interested in only 25 of 50 plugs, they chose to not stock them this year.

>He also said that as far as he knows, any plugs on the market now must
>be from the 1991 crop.  If this is true, then my experience with plugs
>speaks very well for their keeping ability.  As I said yesterday, the
>plugs I bought recently had the freshest hops I've ever used.

Indeed they have an incredible refridgerated shelf life, partly due to
the fact that their O2-barrier packages are nitrogen-purged before
vacuum-sealing.  The Morris Hanbury Plugs that I received, however,
were marked as 1992 crop.  I suspect that the unavailability of whole
and pelletized 1992 Goldings is perhaps associated with the fact that
they are most attractive in the plug form and thus most of the scarce
1992 export crop was destined to be made into plugs.  Just a guess.

Al.

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Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1993 10:43:25 -0800
From: Richard Stueven <gak at wrs.com>
Subject: A Beer Odyssey (Act III)

A Beer Odyssey (Act III)

Ashland is a good long way from Cave Junction.  You have to drive
around a whole lot of mountains to get there.  You can work up quite a
thirst doing it.  I finally reached Rogue Brewing in Ashland around
10:30 Saturday night.

It pains me to say it, but I'm going to plead the Fifth in my
description of my visit to Rogue, and I promise the brewers and the
staff there that I will give them another go under more favorable
conditions.  I had been driving for some thirteen hours by then, and it
was late, and (dare I say it?) I was in more of a mood to sleep than I
was to drink beer.  As I walked up to the pub, there were a lot of
people making a lot of noise (or so I thought, but what did I expect on
a Saturday night?) and a folk guitarist on a stool outside.  I went
inside to the downstairs bar, and the bartender told me I should go
outside to listen to the music.  I explained the True Reason that I was
there, and ordered an IPA.

I'll be honest:  I've had Rogue beers on tap and in the bottle, and I
was never very impressed.  I found them sour and not very appetizing at
all.  My immediate reaction to this IPA wasn't much different, and I
finished the pint and left.

As I was driving away in search of a motel, the taste of the beer
lingered, and I thought, "You know, that beer wasn't bad at all."  My
state of mind had really distorted my state of palate.  Once again, I
apologize to the folks at Rogue, and I promise to stop by again and do
them up right.  Like so many of the beers I tasted on this odyssey, I
think they've probably improved immeasurably over the past year or
two.

I drove through the streets of Ashland, looking for a motel.  "No
Vacancy" signs lit my path.  Eventually, I came to I-5, and I headed
south, back toward California.  "There must be some towns nearby," I
thought, "and I'll find a place to stay in one of them."

Nobody had bothered to tell me that there are nothing but mountains
from Ashland on south, and big empty ones at that.  No towns to be
found; nothing but dark twisty Interstate Highway.  The nearly-full
moon rose behind Mount Shasta, some sixty miles away by air (ninety by
road).  Forty-five minutes later, I was in Yreka, California.

No vacancy.  I began to suspect a conspiracy.

I returned to the freeway and continued south.  It was plenty late, and
I was plenty tired, and about six hundred miles from home.  The next
town with a streetlight was Weed, California.

No vacancy.

I drove around the streets of Weed, checking all the motels, but they
all claimed to be full.  Reaching deep into my bag of tricks, I asked
myself what I would have done back when I was young and poor.

I slept in my car in a Motel 6 parking lot.

I woke Sunday morning around 6:30 when the fellow in the truck next to
me was loading up to leave.  (The looks I got from him...)  Just up
the road was the Hi-Lo Cafe & Motel.  The Cafe was a lot more
interesting to me than the Motel just now; I was in desperate need of
coffee.  I mapped out the day's battle plan over breakfast.  Since I
had come this far, and was now rounding the far turn, as they say, I
reasoned that I may as well visit a few more pubs on the way home.  I
plotted my course.

First up was Sierra Nevada Brewing Company in Chico.  As luck would
have it, I reached this Mecca of Pubcrawlers at ten o'clock in the
morning, opening time, and time for Sunday brunch.  It's a beautiful
brewery, industrial surroundings notwithstanding, and a beautiful bar
inside.  It reminded me of the bar at Pacific Coast Brewing in
Oakland, but the one at Sierra is even bigger.  Sunday brunch at Sierra
consists of your choice from their breakfast menu plus a half-pint of
the beer of your choice.  What a way to start your day.  The hardest
choice to make was which beer to accompany breakfast.  To make a proper
choice, I felt that I should have a round of samplers first:

	Draught Ale - Like the Pale Ale, but smoother, and more hops.
	Pale Ale - Even better when fresh.
	Porter - Very smooth, with strong chocolate flavor.  Not as
		highly hopped as I remember it, and that's good!  Very
		thick.
	Stout - Heavier in body, but lighter taste than Porter.  Also
		not as highly hopped as I remember.
	Celebration Ale - Not available.  Too bad.
	Bigfoot Ale - Holy cow!  This is not your basic breakfast
		beer!  Again, ten times better when fresh, just like
		the others.
	Summerfest - Very smooth, heavy body, light taste.  Could use
		a touch more flavoring hops, but maybe not.
	Pale Bock - Not available.  Too bad.

I chose the Huevos Rancheros and a half-pint of the Draught Ale.  The
Huevos Rancheros were served with a black bean sauce and an alarmingly
hot salsa, and a fruit plate and various muffins.  Not bad for six
bucks!  There was a good crowd for a Sunday morning; at least two dozen
people were there for brunch, and even then the bartender called it a
"pretty slow morning".  Their prices are better than fair:  brunch, the
samplers, a pint each of Pale and Porter, a T-shirt, and two pint
glasses for $25.  It's a deal!  Be advised they're closed on Monday.

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Date: Thu, 11 Feb 93 12:53 CST
From: korz at iepubj.att.com
Subject: Re: Soured (?) Wort

Dan writes:
>   A brewing friend has become enamored with soured beers, Samuel Smith's
>Taddy Porter in particular.

I'm confused.  Either your friend got a hold of a bad sixpack or is
mis-interpreting something in the Taddy Porter's flavor profile as
sour.  I have never found markedly more sourness in Taddy Porter than
in any other British ale.  I suggest your friend get a hold of some
Berliner Weiss or Cantillon Gueuze and compare sourness to Taddy Porter.

Granted, any beer with dark-roasted grains will have a bit more acidity
than paler beers, so perhaps I'm jumping-the-gun... perhaps your friend
is hyper-sensitive to sourness (everyone's perceptions of taste are
different -- part of being a judge is recognizing and normalizing your
own).

To answer your question, I feel that Charlie Papazian has a very good
explanation of sour mashing in the back of the New CJoHB.  I don't
have my copy here, so I can't help you with the times and temps,
but it basically uses naturally occurring Lactobacillus on grain husks
to sour the mash.  I tasted a pseudo-lambic that made it to the
second round of the nationals last year that was made this way and
it was quite good (albeit short on Brettanomyces character, but that's
a different story).

Al.

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Date: Thu, 11 Feb 93 13:20:49 EST
From: Lee Menegon <necis!lmenegon at transfer.stratus.com>
Subject: Level of Malt Modification

In reviewing a grain suppliers catalog I noticed that they list the
level of modification of the various malts they sell.  They range from
low modification for the German varieties to highly modified for  the
British varieties.  American 2 rows were in the middle.  

I know that when a friend step mashed some German Pilsner malt he would
get about 28-29 sg points per pound and his mashes would take 30 to 45
minutes longer than when he mashed British Pale malt.  When he switched
to decoction mashing the Pilsner malt his yield would be about 34 sg
points per pound.

Why are grains modified to different extents?
How can I use this level of modification information to brew better beer?

I have been experimenting with Muton&Fison Mild Malt.  It is kilned a bit
higher than pale malt, is slightly darker and adds a nutty flavor to a 
beer's profile.  I have used it in a pale ale and brown ale and recommend
its use by partial mashers and all grain snobs, AGS.  In the pale ale it
was about 10-20% of the grist while the brown ale 4050% of grist.
Partial mashers use 1-1.5Lb for ale 2.5 to 4 lb for brown ale.
  I will have some of my most recent brown ale at the 2-12 meeting of the
Brew Free or Die Homebrew club.  Since it is named: not so Brown Ale  I
hope that the whinny voice in the Sam Adams radio adds, Jim Koch, does 
not issue an injuction against me for using the same letters in the word
 Boston in my beer's name.  Incidently the grain was purchased in Boston.
    
Some recent posts have mentioned "a lost style " of beer, Irish Red Ales
and have metioned how homebrewing has help resurect styles, like Porter.
What is the Irish Red Ale style, its color, beginning and ending gravity,
what ingredients are normally used, grains hops, level of bitterness, 
what yeast is characteristic of this style?  Lets discuss it and brew it.
 -- 

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Date: 11 Feb 93 15:06:20 EST
From: Jeff Frane <70670.2067 at compuserve.com>
Subject: Costs / Cold Break

On all-grain snobbery:  Jim Busch has offered excellent points on
how little all-grain brewing can cost.  I'd also like to offer a
suggestion -- brew with a friend.  Or several friends.  If you are
in a region with a homebrew club, or have other brewers nearby that
you know, pooling resources works very well.  It's obviously a lot
cheaper for 3 brewers to buy a grain mill or build a wort chiller
than for one, and the reality is that this equipment spends a lot of
time sitting around.  It's also true that a 15 gallon kettle
doesn't cost _that_ much more than an 8 gallon kettle, and two
brewers can make 10 gallons almost as quickly as one can make five.
It also means more than one brain -- which can be a real aid.

On Cold Break:

Brian Bliss has posted some responses to a query about cold break,
and I must say his opinion seems well-considered.  However, I have
to disagree, based both on my own experience and on the research I
did last year for a presentation at the AHA national conference.
George Fix suggested I post it to the Digest last summer, but I
never got around to it.  Here, then, are my own conclusions, 
excerpted from a presentation/article on building a wort chiller:

Hot Break/Cold Break

In addition to getting the wort to fermentation temperature,
rapid cooling also causes changes in the wort which encourage
good fermentation and brighter beer.  At two late stages in the
boiling/cooling cycle, there is an opportunity to clear the
proteins, hop resins and other organic matter that would
discourage healthy yeast growth and cloud the finished beer.      
  
The hot break occurs while the wort is still in the kettle and
is, in fact, considered to be the right time to end the boil.  It
is marked by the appearance of large flakes of "gunk" surrounded
by a brilliantly clear wort.  The cold break -- which consists of
similar organic compounds -- begins after the wort has been
cooled below 60^C (140^F).  George Fix writes that "by removing
most of both precipitates, one can eliminate approximately one-
half of the haze-forming material." While it is essential to
fine beer to ensure a proper hot break and to rack the wort off
the precipitate, some homebrewers are overly cautious about
"protecting" their beer from the cold break. 

After touring through a few breweries, it is clear that
cold break sediment is nowhere near as threatening as it seems at
first glance; the most common systems create a cold break but do
nothing to eliminate it.  Consider, then, Jean de Clerq's
statement: "It is therefore essential, that while the sterility
of the wort is assured, it should (1) absorb sufficient oxygen
during cooling, (2) coagulated protein should be entirely
eliminated, and (3) the turbid matter which appears during
cooling should be at least partly precipitated, _so that it does
not remain as a fine colloidal suspension in the beer_." 
(emphasis added). In other words, what's essential is ensuring
the break; once precipitated out, the material will only cause
problems if it is redissolved by raising the temperature again.

George Fix writes that "in preparing my book on brewing science I
tried to carefully study the effects of cold break carryover, and
found that as far as finished beer flavors wre concerned there
were none."  In that book, in fact, Fix explains that in
adverse conditions such as a shortage of oxygen, the trub can be
utilized in yeast metabolism.  He cautions, however, that
bacteria can use trub in the same way.  "If bacterial levels are
sufficiently low both in the chilled wort and in the pitching
yeast, then I believe there will be no problems from cold break
carryover." With proper sanitation, then, and the use of pure
cultured brewing yeast the carryover from cold break should not
prove a problem to the homebrewer.  


Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 11 Feb 93 15:09:07 CST
From: krueger at comm.mot.com (Kevin Krueger)
Subject: Growing your own hops

Okay, being a homebrewer means never having to say your sorry . . . uh, I
mean, it means you brew in a home (whatever that might be) and I finally
have one !!  So, being a homeowner means owning the land, and owning
the land means tilling the land, so I want to grow some hops !!

I am curious what kind grows best in Zone 5 (Northern Illinois).  I imagine
that there is a reference book that addresses so any suggestions would do
instead of advice.

Either way, thanks for any advice.

Kevin Krueger

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Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1993 16:08:00 +0000 
From: "Rick (R.) Cavasin" <cav at bnr.ca>
Subject: re: idophor, rinse/reuse 


JS relates his experiences with iodophor sanitizer:

I've had no problem with my brand of iodophor ('iosan') changing colour
during normal use.  Phil Hultin confirmed that iodine is fairly volatile
(though not as much as chlorine), and so will eventually evaporate if
left uncovered.  This explains the fact that the iodine dissipated from
the blowoff bucket but not from the stoppered carboy (I've reused the
solution in the carboy and it's still amber - I guess there's a certain
leap of faith you have to take in trusting the indicator colour during
multiple reuses).

Coincidentally, while brewing the other night, I decided to check if the
iodophor could be used as a starch indicator as well.  The mash was
already pretty much done and I got no colour change from the mash
sample.  So I tried adding a little powdered corn starch, and got the
typical blue indication.  Next time I'll check my mash at the beginning
and end of the mash.  Maybe it would be better to use the undiluted
iodophor for starch tests - will test and post results.
Cheers,
Rick C.


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Date: Thu, 11 Feb 93 15:56:27 CST
From: todd at gold.rtsg.mot.com (Todd M. Williams)
Subject: hops in outer space...


More or less what was in the Thursday 2/11/93 Chicago Tribune...

BEER COULD REACH NEW HIGH IN SHUTTLE TESTS

German beer brewers, proud of their medieval roots, will join
the space age next month when astronauts aboard the space shuttle
test the effects of radiation and weightlessness on hops.

A leading brewery said Wednesday it hopes the experiment will
produce new and better types of hops, which give beer much of its
unique bitter flavor during fermentation.

"Plants change anyway because of natural radiation.  Now we want to
see what kind of mutation comes from extreme conditions of space
radiation and weightlessness," said a spokesman for Bremen-based
Brauerei Beck.

The hops experiment is one of about 90 to be carried out by two
Germans flying with a U.S. space shuttle in March to the orbiting 
space lab.


Todd

Moderation sir, aye, moderation is my rule.  9 or 10 is reasonable
refreshment, but after that it's apt to degenerate into drinking

  /--------------------------------------------------------------------------\
 / -rwxr-xr-x   1 todd      employer  69   Feb 10 1958  OPINIONS              \
 \ lrwxrwxrwx   1 employer  other     9    Jan 01 1970  OPINIONS -> /dev/null /
  \--------------------------------------------------------------------------/


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Date:    Thu, 11 Feb 1993 16:22:08 -0600 (CST)
From: STOREY at fender.msfc.nasa.gov (BadAssAstronomer)
Subject: still more BAA information


    Hi all

    Since I've had more than a few requests for info regarding my post
    about Beer Across America, I just thought I would post a few
    excerpts from the most recent BAA newsletter (kindly provided by
    our own Michael Galloway).

    Here are the 24 different brews sent during 1992.

    Jan	Geary's Pale Ale
    	Harpoon Ale

    Feb	Millstream Schild Brau
    	Oldenberg Premium Verum

    Mar	Wild Goose Amber
    	Boulevard Irish Ale

    Apr	Eureka Bear
    	Alpine Village Lager

    May	Buffalo Lager
    	James Page (not the Led Zeppelin guitarist I guess)

    Jun	Dock Street
    	Old Detroit Ale

    Jul	Crazy Ed's Beer
    	Helenboch Oktoberfest

    Aug	Wasatch Wheat
    	Pyramid Ale

    Sep	Cherryland Golden Rail
    	Elm City Golden Ale

    Oct	Penn Pilsner
    	Dominion Lager

    Nov	Garten Brau Wild Rice Beer
    	Kessler Oktoberfest

    Dec	Portland Ale
    	Sierra Nevada Celebration Ale

    They were also some favorites listed from the above:

    Honorable Mentions:
    Geary's
    Wild Goose
    Buffalo Lager
    Dock Street and
    Pyramid Ale

    Winners:
    Boulevard Irish Ale
    Kessler Oktoberfest and
    Sierra Nevada Celebration Ale

    As you may have noticed, all beers were either lagers or ales.
    Specifically, 15 lagers and 9 ales.
    The Jan 93 selections were; Mass Bay Brewing Winter Warmer and
    Fisher Brewing Dark Ale.

    There is a page of descriptions of each of the featured breweries
    giving locations and other beers available.

    It also prints reviews of the last quarter's beers. All are
    favorable in a way because they supposedly have already gone
    through a taste-testing before they are selected. But they do
    offer descriptions of each beer i.e. the color, hopness, finish
    etc.

    Another feature is that you can order from past selections. I was
    gonna order a 1/2 case of the SN Celebration, but they had none in
    stock. They did have Fishers Dark Ale, Portland Ale, Kessler's
    Centennial and Capitol's Dark Beer. Just in case you're
    interested.

    Lastly and of course *most* importantly; if you are a member and
    you recruit new members (they mention your name when they sign up)
    you get a free sixpack, including shipping. So, all you
    prospective new members out there, my name is Scott Storey
    (BadAssAstronomer) ;);)

    scott

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Date: 11 Feb 93 15:58:14 U
From: "Rad Equipment" <rad_equipment at rad-mac1.ucsf.EDU>
Subject: Another Mash-out Idea

Subject:  Another Mash-out Idea                 Time:3:48 PM     Date:2/11/93
A thought: If unconverted starch, originating from dry sections of malt, might
be released during the sparge; would it not be prudent to forgo the mash-out so
that the enzymes, which are also in suspension (I assume), can do their bit on
the newly released starch? I realize that the liquid level is greatly increased
so it is harder for the enzymes to find the starch, but still...

Reactions?

RW...

Russ Wigglesworth (INTERNET: Rad_Equipment at radmac1.ucsf.edu - CI$: 72300,61)
UCSF Dept. of Radiology, San Francisco, CA (415) 476-3668 / 474-8126


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End of HOMEBREW Digest #1077, 02/15/93