FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Rob Gardner, Digest Coordinator


Contents:
  Adams Family BBC Product Suggestions ("Jim Ellingson")
  Re: A New Journal (Richard Stueven)
  Fwd: Re: Pete, is this you? (Gary_F._Mason)
  apology (Rob Bradley)
  Richmond, VA Brewpubs? (BLAST)
  Criticism of MI Bottle Deposit (Dan Wood)
  Mash temps. (Andrius Tamulis)
  message for Sandy Cockerham (Lance Encell)
  A Beer Odyssey (Act IV) (Richard Stueven)
  Suggestions for a beginner... (Nathan Clark)
  RE- Fermenting in Stainless ("Rad Equipment")
  Re: enzymes/heresy (korz)
  Spread it on Toast Imperial Stout (korz)
  Brewing History (Norm Pyle)
  aeration and hot/cold breaks (J. Williamson)
  Chuck Cox Freed!!!!!!! (7226 Lacroix)
  roller mill rollers (SCHREMPP_MIKE/HP4200_42)
  malt extract (Alexander Samuel McDiarmid)
  MI 10cent deposit, all-grain snobs (Eric M. Mrozek)
  Where's Rudebush (Jack Schmidling)
  Irish Red Style Definition (Jim Bayer)
  New additions to the HBD Archives. ("Stephen Hansen")
  Reused Ballantine yeast ("Matthew Mitchell")
  Diacetyl reduction and clarifiers (Josh Grosse)
  Thanks! (was RE: Beginner wants to make SMALL batch...) (davidr)
  Beer places of interest in Santa Clara, CA? (Kevin L. McBride)
  George Fix's Address (Tom Leith MIR/ERL 362-6965)
  Overnight mashing (Ed Hitchcock)


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		IMPORTANT NEWS -- PLEASE READ
		-----------------------------

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ps. and please try to behave yourselves while I'm gone ;-)



----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Feb 93 18:16:49 -0600
From: "Jim Ellingson" <jimme at pi28.arc.umn.edu>
Subject: Adams Family BBC Product Suggestions

I really enjoyed Chuck's post on Sam Adams vs The World.
Thanks for the update.

Chuck, I have some suggestions for the product line.
I'll leave the OG, Hop Profiles, etc. up to you.

        "Litigator"     A doppelbock, of course.
        "Jim Koch"      A NA barley whine.

and on the Adams Family Theme; "Pugsley Pale Ale"
"Lurch Lambic", "Mortica Marzen", "Uncle Fester Fest Bier"

Cheers,
Jim
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
*  Jim Ellingson                                     jimme at arc.umn.edu  *
*  AHPCRC/University of Minnesota                    tel 612/626-8088   *
*  1100 Washington Ave. S., Minneapolis, MN 55415    fax 612/626-1596   *


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Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1993 16:37:16 -0800
From: Richard Stueven <gak at wrs.com>
Subject: Re: A New Journal

Martin sez:

>If you read the Celebrator this may be old news to you...

Speaking of the Celebrator, congratulations to them on their Fifth Anniversary!

Keep up the great work, y'all!

have fun
gak

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Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1993 19:12:41 EST
From: Gary_F._Mason%fc.jlc.mv.com at mv.com
Subject: Fwd: Re: Pete, is this you?

This is the result of my search for Pete Soper. He OKed the post.

Cheers...Gary
============================================================================

Gary,
	Very sorry to hear you are between jobs. I know this is 
not a pleasant situation in your neck of the woods these days. Best
of luck with your search; I'll be thinking about you.
	Feel free to forward this to the Digest. I guess I should
have realized we'd developed a sort of electronic "community"
and I should have posted something about my status long ago.
	Yep, I'm still here. Still in the same job, same office,
same compiler development work. Encore still teeters on the crack of
doom but after eight and a half years on the crack I've gotten 
tired of worrying about it. 
	I haven't read the homebrew digest in around 20 months and
have put my homebrewing on indefinite hold. After my coworker here
was severely injured in a hang-glider accident in April of 1991
I had to take over extra work. I then rode through the closing of 
a plant where half my development group worked and I had to see them 
through layoffs. That was lots of fun.  Those of us at other sites 
who were not laid off had that much more work to do, so up to about 
mid-1992 I was totally distracted by being screwed into the ground
by the load.
	I took up gardening as therapy for this and have become one
of those rabid types who views the whole planet as composed of 
compostable and non-compostable objects :-) Seriously, I was shoveling
horse manure off my truck before I went to work this morning. A
neighbor came out to see what was on fire (it was composting like
mad and creating big clouds of steam). Lately I've been on a
self-study kick, trying to reinvent myself as an "object-oriented 
programmer" and between these two hobbies, all the rest of my
time has gone to my wife, whose career has ramped up to full time.
	But in addition to all this, I find I simply can't have ten 
gallons of beer in the house and moderate either my waistline or the 
tendency to substitute one more beer for a more "worthwhile" activity.
So, while I've learned to avoid saying "never", I don't expect to
be brewing any time soon and I'm thinking about other things.

Cheers,
Pete

- -----------------------------------------------------------------------
Pete Soper  (psoper at encore.com)   919 481 3730/voice   919 481 3868/FAX
Encore Computer Corp,     901 Kildaire Farm Rd,     Cary, NC 27511  USA
             Quality is in the eye of the customer.

***************************************************************************
  John Leslie Consulting FirstClass BBS, through PostalUnion by I.E.
  The views expressed in this posting are those of the individual.
***************************************************************************

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KC at jMEh*P,Q0[E5&`Ffp`CA)q$3h-e`!!:

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Date: Fri, 12 Feb 93 07:59:18 -0500
From: bradley at adx.adelphi.edu (Rob Bradley)
Subject: apology

In hbd 1071, arf dismissed extract brewers in an off-hand and offensive
way.  I kept my peace.  Over the course of the next few days, Jack
referred to his limited knowledge of/access to the net.  To amuse
myself on a quiet Thursday morning, I took Jack's original post and
made a few simple global replacements: Compuserve user for extract
brewer, electronic community for homebrew community, etc.  I was
very amused, and decided to share the results with the hbd.  I
apologize now, as I did in the original post, to any Compuserve
users who didn't realize that this was all in jest.  More to the
point, I apologize to the HBD for wasting bandwith with what could
be considered a flame.  I hope this note appears on the same day as the
original joke.  And Jack, if you must respond by flaming, please direct
it to bradley at adx.adelphi.edu instead of here on the hbd.

Rob

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Date: 12 Feb 1993 07:48:33 -0600 (CST)
From: BLAST at sn01.sncc.lsu.edu
Subject: Richmond, VA Brewpubs?

I have to make a trip to Ft. Lee, VA (outside Richmond) early next week.

Anybody know of any brewpubs in that area?

Thanks,
Bruce Ray

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Date: Fri, 12 Feb 93 08:52:58 CST
From: wood at ranger.rtsg.mot.com (Dan Wood)
Subject: Criticism of MI Bottle Deposit

Note: I sent this in yesterday, and got an emailed assurance that it
would be added to the HBD, but alas, it's not in today's issue.  My
apologies if it appears twice on Monday.  Just goes to show, you've 
got to be careful about trusting daemons.  :)

   While I have enjoyed Ulick's posts in the past, and benefitted from
the wealth of information he provides to this digest, I must take
exception to his description of Michigan's deposit law as "inane".

   I live in Illinois, a state with neither bottle deposit nor blue
laws.  I frequently visit friends and relatives in Michigan.  The
contrast between the two states in startling in many respects, but
let me focus on the difference this is entirely due to the bottle
deposit.

   In Michigan, you will find very little broken glass, nor will you 
find litter from empty cans or cardboard packaging.  It's rare for people
to throw away their empties, instead they return them for cash.  In the
rare occasions where they are discarded as litter, local kids 
enthusiastically gather them and return them to collect the deposit.
You wouldn't think it would work this well, but apparently the locals
have figured out that those dimes add up.

   In contrast, virtually no area of Illinois is immune to this litter.
Even residential neighborhoods routinely have empties (presumably from
"cruising" young drinkers) discarded on street corners and in front yards.
Local parks typically have hazardous areas created by broken glass.  In
my experience, this problem also exists in other states that don't have 
deposit laws.

   Although Michigan's deposit laws have created some inconvenience for
retailers, I feel it's justified, since they profit from the sales.  It
costs the consumer nothing so long as he acts responsibly and collects
and returns the empties, which should be done regardless.  The deposit
simply provides incentive to "do the right thing".  Obviously social
conscience doesn't produce this incentive elsewhere.

   Please excuse the long post, and I certainly don't mean to flame, but
the lack of deposit laws in other states is a pet peeve of mine.  I can't
see condemning such an effective system simply because of minor inconvenience
suffered by out-of-state visitors.  Should anyone feel they must debate this
issue with me, please do so via private email, this is the last HBD bandwidth
I will expend on this topic.

   Stepping off my soap box now, relaxing, and still _brewing_ great beers 
from extract,
								Dan Wood
								wood at rtsg.mot.com




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Date: Fri, 12 Feb 93 11:10:09 EST
From: Andrius Tamulis <ATAMULIS at ucs.indiana.edu>
Subject: Mash temps.

In today's HBD I saw a question about mash temperatures, and as I've
had a question about the same that I've been meaning to put to the
net, I figure now's the time.

I all concerns Miller's book and his mash temperature recommendations.
I don't have the book here, so details may be fuzzy, but in his chapter
on "Conducting the Mash" he warns that starch does not dissolve in water
at temps. less than 149 F, and therefore you should never mash blow
(below, that is) that temperature. Then, in the ale recepie section,
he recommends mashing certain ales at 141-150 degrees F. Does anyone
know what's going on here?

andrius

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Date: Fri, 12 Feb 93 10:32:44 CST
From: lencell at unmc.edu (Lance Encell)
Subject: message for Sandy Cockerham

Sandy, this is with regard to your post about chocolate porters.
I want to make a chocolate for my next batch, but haven't decided on
a recipe.  Any hints....clues.... or recipes you might recommend for
an extract brewer?  ANy help is much appreciated.  Please reply directly
to me at:
		lencell at molecular.unmc.edu

Thanks again,

 -Lance

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Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1993 09:54:54 -0800
From: Richard Stueven <gak at wrs.com>
Subject: A Beer Odyssey (Act IV)

A Beer Odyssey (Act IV, the last)

My next scheduled stops were Willet's and Brown Street, both in Napa.
Check your maps - Napa is a good long way from Chico, and the nearest
intervening brewpub involves a detour to Davis.  (Which wouldn't have
been a terribly bad idea, since Sudwerk makes some mighty fine brews.)
About halfway there, my human frailties overcame my drive for beer,
and around 12:30 I pulled off the freeway at Maxwell for an hour's
nap.

I awoke a new man.  Before long I was on Highway 128, navigating the
hills between the Central Valley and the Napa Valley.  (Nobody told me
there were mountains there!  Whose idea was this, anyway?)  Willet's
was closer than Brown Street, so I stopped there first.  I was shocked
and dismayed to read the sign painted in their front window:  "Closed
Sunday".  Fortunately, Brown Street was just up the road.

Brown Street had been my favorite brewpub since my first visit not long
after they opened.  They always had twelve very good beers on tap, from
a very light ale to a very black stout.  Their specialties were Ginseng
Ale, which was their Porter with a bit of ginseng extract added, and
California Chili Beer, which was amazing.  Period.  My friends and I
would make regular road trips to Napa to buy the stuff two or more
gallons at a time.  It was incredible.

Then the unimaginable happened.  I read it on page 13 of the August
1992 Celebrator:  "Closed:  Brown Street Brewing, Napa CA.  The brewery
has ceased production but the restaurant is still open."  I was stunned.
Shocked.  Dumbfounded, even.  Granted, they have a terrific restaurant,
but no more Chili Beer?  It was hard to imagine.  I was sure I was dealing
with a vicious rumor, but I had to find out for myself.

The sign on the door said "Sunday:  4:30-11:00".  No mention of the
state of the brewery.  As much as I would have liked to stay, it was
only 2:30, and I had places to go.  I have since learned that the
brewery is in fact closed.  They have five excellent California and
Washington beers on tap, but the brewery is closed.  A moment of
silence, please.

Kelmer's in Santa Rosa is just up Highway 12 from Napa.  It's bigger
than your average brewpub, with a long bar, a large dining area, and a
separate room that looks like it would be a great place for a private
party.  I was stuck in traffic (Traffic?  In Sonoma County?) on the way
there, so I didn't arrive until nearly four o'clock.  Imagine my
thirst.  I remembered tasting their excellent Scottish Ale on tap at
Pacific Coast, and I hoped to have some fresh at the brewery, but it
was out of season.  I had to make do with some of their other pretty
fine beers:

	Krystal (light) - Wheat lager.  Very light indeed.  Definite
		wheat sweetness.
	Klassic (medium) - Amber.  Also pretty light.
	Klout (dark) - Stout.  Good roasty flavor, but a bit thin.
	Independence Ale - "Winner of the Great American Beer
		Festival".  That's more like it!  Well-hopped,
		well-balanced pale ale.

The notes on the menu say that the brewery was established October
1987, and that they have sold over ONE MILLION glasses of their beer!
Well done!  They also sell those one-gallon jugs that are supposedly
illegal.  I asked the bartender about them, and he was not aware of
any rules prohibiting their sale.  Go figure.  The fish and chips,
while not up to the standards of the Edinburgh Castle in San
Francisco, were certainly good enough to soak up a pint of their
Independence Ale.

One last stop before the home stretch:  Dempsey's Ale House in
Petaluma.  It's tucked away in the back of the Golden Eagle shopping
center, but it's not too hard to find.  Once again, the gallon jugs
were on sale.  (They're everywhere, I tell ya!)  One more time, I
started with a round of samplers:

	Golden Eagle - light pale.
	Red Rooster - Less body but more flavor than Gold...
	Bad Bear Brown - Good brown.  Just sweet enough.  Could use a
		bit more "roasty" flavor, but maybe not.
	Henry's Stout - Thin, a little astringent.  Doesn't make the
		cut as a stout, and it has too much burnt flavor for a
		porter.

The jar behind the bar advertised homemade beef jerky, but the jar was
empty.  Too bad.

There were more stops to be made before I crossed the Bay on the way
home:  Marin in Larkspur; J&L in San Rafael; 20 Tank, San Francisco
Brewing, and Gordon Biersch in San Francisco; Bison and Triple Rock in
Berkeley; Pacific Coast in Oakland; Tied House in Alameda; but I had
to admit defeat.

Or was it defeat?  Nine brewpubs, samples of forty-one of the best
beers in California and Oregon, a thousand miles of driving through
some of the most scenic country in America...I think I won after all.

And I learned two very valuable lessons along the way:

	- A lot of microbreweries are making much better beer now than
	  they were last year.

	- The 1989 Mercury Cougar was not designed to be slept in.

Richard Stueven
gak at wrs.com

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Date: 12 Feb 1993 13:02:10 -0500 (EST)
From: Nathan Clark <GRS04736 at CONRAD.APPSTATE.EDU>
Subject: Suggestions for a beginner...

I have recently become interested in HB, and have been reading HBD for a few 
mos. I am wondering if there are any magazines out there for HB, especially
ones with help, hints and recipes for the novice.  I have seen some
references to "Zymurgy" in articles by Bob Jones and others.  Is this what I'm
looking for?  Also any good liturature for the beginner?

Thank you,
Nate Clark
grs04736 at conrad.appstate.edu

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Date: 12 Feb 93 10:22:13 U
From: "Rad Equipment" <rad_equipment at rad-mac1.ucsf.EDU>
Subject: RE- Fermenting in Stainless

Subject:  RE: Fermenting in Stainless           Time:9:37 AM     Date:2/12/93
I have been using a 15.5 gal Sanke keg as a fermenter for the past 18 months or
so. I have been quite happy with the results. I have not modified the keg
except to remove the valve assembly. I can put 13 gallons of bitter wort in it
without a blowoff hose and not worry about overflow. To sanitize, I scrub the
interior with my regular carboy brush, inspecting with a small mirror and
flashlight. Very little grunge has stuck to the walls of the keg. I then rinse
with boiling water, about 3 or 4 gallons. I roll the keg around on its side
with the boiling water in it for about 15 minutes. The keg is emptied and
stored with some foil over the opening. Prior to filling the fermenter with new
wort I rinse it again with the same amount of boiling water as before, rolling
again for 15 minutes. I have not had any infection problems.

George Fix uses pony kegs for fermenters. There is some study which says that
the proportions of ponies are perfect for the task. Perhaps he'll chime in with
comments of his own.

RW...

Russ Wigglesworth (INTERNET: Rad_Equipment at radmac1.ucsf.edu - CI$: 72300,61)
UCSF Dept. of Radiology, San Francisco, CA (415) 476-3668 / 474-8126


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Date: Fri, 12 Feb 93 12:25 CST
From: korz at iepubj.att.com
Subject: Re: enzymes/heresy

McHarry writes:
>I know that enzyme activity varies with temperature, but I have never seen
>discussed whether one can run a mash up to the upper 150s to break down
>some of the starches, then drop back to 148 or so to finish off the
>dextrins.  Does the higher temperature just favor the one enzyme system
>over the other, or is the lower temperature system actually destroyed?  I
>have always thought the latter, but the literature is unclear, and it would
>seem the malting process exceeds those temperatures.

It's a better idea to go the other way around or mash somewhere in the
middle, say low to mid 150s.  It is the latter.  Actually both alpha-amylase
(which cuts the starches into dextrins) and beta-amylase (which breaks
glucose molecules off the ends of dextrins and starches) slowly denature
at all the temperatures above 140F (or something like that -- I don't have
my books here).  Beta-amylase is MORE temperature sensitive and denatures
quite quickly at temperatures like 158F.  Alpha-amylase tends to be heartier
and lasts longer at temperatures like 158F.  So the key is how long are
alpha- and beta-amylase going to be around at your mashing temperature,
not at what temperature they "like" to work.  This is why going into the
high 150s and then back down won't work as planned.  I'll leave the answer
to your other question, about temperatures during the malting process,
to others since I don't know enought about it (perhaps much of the enzymes
*ARE* denatured, but enough is still left? -- that would explain why Munich
malt (kilned at higher temps) has less diastatic potential than Pilsener
malt).

**********************

Jonathan writes:
>I boil my beer in a Vollrath pot (borrowed from a friend who is currently not
>brewing).  I generally boil about 4 gallons, losing a gallon or so over the
>sixty minutes.  I have pre-boiled and chilled, first in the fridge and then,
>while brewing, in the freezer, down to almost-frozen, 2 gallon jugs of water.
>When the boil is over, I stick the Vollrath in my kitchen sink, filled with
>ice water and dump the almost-frozen water in on top.  I cover the pot &
>wait about a half hour or until all the ice in the sink melts.
>Seems to me I get a pretty good cold break from this.
>
>Wort-chillers?  We don' need no stinkin' wort-chillers!!!

That's exactly what I used to do and it was a BIG improvement over trying
to get the wort to pitching temperature in the bathtub.  I build myself
a wort-chiller so I could do full boils (better hop utilization) and for
consistency (sometimes half of the gallon of water would freeze and I'd
have a heck of a time getting it out of the jug!) so my pitching temp
was more predictable.

Then later:
>Now here's the heretical part.  After having read the discussion of yeast
>nutrients in trub when it first appeared a few months ago, I decided to rack
>off not only the beer but just a little bit of break material too (maybe 1/2
>cup or so).  Also, in spite of all the *worrying* about temperature shocking
>yeast, I pitch at a relatively high temperature - usually in the 80's F.(I
>brew ales), because, o.k., well, my chilling methods DON'T work as well as a
>wort-chiller does - but the bottom line is that I always get fantastic starts
>(under six hours and a lot of crud in the blowoff bucket) and I've been getting
>some pretty decent beer the last few batches.

There's little problem with pitching into 80F wort if your starter is around
80F also.  If your starter was in the 60s, then I'll bet you wouldn't be
getting such fast starts (temperature shock).  Also, pitching a warmer starter
into a cooler wort is a bigger shock to the yeast that going into warmer wort.

Regarding your picking up of trub, if you mean when you are transferring
to your secondary, then I feel you would be better off not picking up the
trub.  Sure there are nutrients in in, but they are should only be made
available to the yeast during respiration not during fermentation.  I've
read that fermentation of trub tends to increase fusel (higher) alcohol
production.  It has also been suggested that these higher alcohols are
blown-off if you use the blowoff method (which you do), so fermenting
on the trub is allegedly less of a problem if you use the blowoff method.

I ferment on whatever break I accidentally don't leave in the kettle
AND use the blowoff method and on most of my beers I feel there's no
problem with excessive higher alcohols.

Al.

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Date: Fri, 12 Feb 93 13:06 CST
From: korz at iepubj.att.com
Subject: Spread it on Toast Imperial Stout

I've gotten several requests for the recipes with which I've won
awards.  I believe all but the Imperial Stout and Dubbel-style
have been posted.  I won't post the Dubbel-style, since I don't
agree with the judges -- I thought the beer was quite a bit worse
than they did, but here's the Imperial Stout:



Spread it on Toast Imperial Stout
by: Al Korzonas

6.6 lbs Northwestern Dark Unhopped Extract
3 lbs   Laaglander Light DME
1/4 tsp NaCl
1/4 tsp CaSO4
1 tsp   CaCO3
1 lb    40L Crystal malt
1/2 lb  Chocolate malt
1/4 lb  Flaked barley
3/4 lb  Roasted unmalted barley
5 gal   Palos Hills, IL (soft) tapwater
1.5 oz  7%AA Cluster pellets (60min)
1.5 oz  5%AA Cascade pellets (60min)
0.6 oz  5%AA Cascade pellets (15min)
0.5 oz  East Kent Goldings whole (dryhop)
8 oz    starter culture from 4 bottles of Sierra Nevada Pale Ale

Steeped grains at 170F for 15 minutes in grain bags.

OG=1090
FG=1037

Fermented at 65F.

Bottled with 1/2 cup boiled corn sugar.

This Imperial Stout is less alcoholic than many others I've had --
this is partly due to the fact that the Laaglander extract is not
very fermentable.  The Laaglander is also partly responsible for the
high FG.  This is a very creamy, smooth beer.

Al.

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Date: Fri, 12 Feb 93 12:28:20 MST
From: pyle at intellistor.com (Norm Pyle)
Subject: Brewing History

Kieran asked about information on brewing history for a research paper.
I have a long list of brewing history sources in the Bibliography of "Real
Beer and Good Eats".  There appears to be some interesting stuff there, some
published as early as 1879.  It could take some time to type it all in.  If
others are interested, I'd be willing to type it and post it.  If Kieran is
the only one interested, maybe I should just fax it.  Let me know.
(KOC:  I lost your email addr!)

Cheers,
Norm

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Date: Fri, 12 Feb 93 15:11:32 EST
From: johnw at NADC.NAVY.MIL (J. Williamson)
Subject: aeration and hot/cold breaks


	I could use a little help with the subjects of wort aeration and 
the formation and importance of hot and cold break.
	First, wort aeration.  On reading beginner's books I get the impres-
sion that I should boil up my extract, grains, etc in my brewpot, and then
pour the wort through a strainer into my primary, pitch the yeast, seal and
leave alone.  Through this forum and from other sources I've learned that
the yeast needs oxygen to reproduce therefore the wort should be shaken,
stirred vigorously just before or after pitching.  What is the experts'
advice?  Do I leave the wort alone or not?
	Regarding hot andcold break.  As I understand it hot break is formed
during the boiling of the wort.  Cold break must be formed by cooling the 
wort after the boil.  A few questions.  I only boil about one and a half
gallons and add that to three and a half gallons of water in my primary -
does just chilling the 1 1/2 gallons produce a cold break?  Does the rate of
cooling affect the formation of a cold break and if so how fast should it
be cooled?  I'm assuming that cooling my 1 1/2 gal of wort does produce a
cold break which settles to the bottom of my pot with the hot break - should
I take care and siphon the wort off the trub into the primary?  If I siphon
the wort off the trub am I leaving nutrients in the trub that the yeast need?
	Any help would be greatly appriciated as even the beginners books 
are not crystal clear to the beginner.
	Thanks in advance,  JW

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Date: Fri, 12 Feb 93 13:23:55 MST
From: stevel at chs.com (7226 Lacroix)
Subject: Chuck Cox Freed!!!!!!!

	It was nice to see that the mega-brewery wannabe, the BBC, has been
foiled by the courts, and (from the sound of it) their own "expert" witnesses..
especially the character who was so drunk....  Anyway, the call to continue to
boycott Sam Adams Beer (c'mon fellas, it really isn't that good anyway) will
be supported by this brewhound.  I'm glad Chuck stood his ground and maybe this
will be the end of it...then again maybe not.  Is there a lesson here???
I hope so...

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Date: Fri, 12 Feb 93 14:20:12 -0800
From: SCHREMPP_MIKE/HP4200_42 at pollux.svale.hp.com
Subject: roller mill rollers

A few weeks ago there was a posting from someone looking for a source of
rollers for roller mills. I got a woodowrking catalog yesterday that has
rollers that might work. These rollers look like conveyor belt rollers and
are sold to be used to make outfeed supports for table saws and such. Here
are the particulars:

      14" roller, Catalog number 100-023   $8.95
      22" roller, catalog number 801-127   $9.95

      Woodworker's supply
      1-800-645-9292


Disclaimer: I don't own a roller mill, and I've never pruchased these things,
            so I don't know if they're the right thing.


Mike Schrempp

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Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1993 17:42:31 -0500 (EST)
From: Alexander Samuel McDiarmid <am2o+ at andrew.cmu.edu>
Subject: malt extract

I have just tried a new batch of beer which I brewed with a piltzner kit
(M&P?) in which instead of adding only shugar to the malt mix I used
malt concentrate.  My problem is that the taste is too bitter/(malty?). 
I would like some suggestions if anyone has any as to why it has turned
out so bitter and general guidelines as to the proper use of malt
extract.  there is definately the approproate amount of alcohol though
(just for the idiodic innappropriate discussion as to what beer has the
most kick for the dollar).

My process went as such.
boiled all the water and the malt shugar (liquid), malt extract, and shugar.
then I dumped it all in the carboy as usual.
after cooling I dumped in the yeast ( came with the  kit)
after a week in the carboy I added gelatin as a fining agent 
waited a few more days and racked to bottles.  I have since let the
bottles sit the required three weeks plus a few days.  (because I wanted
the beer out of the bottles faster I stuck to the required shugar to pre
beer ratio, also gets rid of that over pressurization prob my friends
complain about when they put in more.)

I have just opened the beer and drunk some, not bad or yeasty as if it
was opened too soon, but definately too bitter.


                                                            -A.

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Date: Fri, 12 Feb 93 18:50:16 PST
From: mrozek at gandalf.etdesg.TRW.COM (Eric M. Mrozek)
Subject: MI 10cent deposit, all-grain snobs

Ulick Stafford <ulick at schumann.helios.nd.edu> writes in HBD 1075:

>and we don't have an inane law like MI's 10cent return charge

I was raised in Michigan and I thought the deposit was a bad idea when it 
started, but after living in Los Angeles for the past ten years I've changed
my mind.  There are practically no bottles littering MI roadsides.  And so 
what if it costs 10 pennies to keep the bottle for homebrew?  Once you get a 
couple hundred (~$20), you keep reuseing them anyway.

I brew all-grain beer, but I'm not an all-grain snob.  Some of my best friends
drink extract beer. ;)   Me and my brewin' buddy DO brew all-grain, but we've
made several extract beers that have won Maltose Falcon awards and have 
astonished some a'g'ers.  One was a Maple Ale that my buddy (Mr. Mark Davis) 
published here a couple o' months back (actually, this one never lasted long
enough to enter).

Eric Mrozek

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Date: Fri, 12 Feb 93 21:20 CST
From: arf at ddsw1.mcs.com (Jack Schmidling)
Subject: Where's Rudebush

 
 I think I have allowed a polite amount of time for Roy to defend his position 
 and as he doesn't seem to be so inclined, I will offer a few comments.
 
 Roy Rudebush has been running ads in various journals claiming that his 
 Corona Mill, "crushes malt better than J.S. rollermill. Proven" and he made 
 the same claim in a recent posting to the Digest.
 
 This claim has been challenged by a HBD participant and he seems to have 
 vanished from the scene.  I have written to him several times, both email and 
 US Mail and have never received a response.
 
 As a bit of background, Roy who runs IMO Homebrew Supply in St Louis, 
 purchased a MALTMILL (tm) about a year ago and promptly returned it for a 
 refund.  Aside from comments about the Corona being better, he has never 
 responded to any further attempts of mine to resolve the issue.
 
 Upon seeing one of his ads, my wife sent for the "proof" under her name and 
 we received his analysis.  Again I wrote to him suggesting that it is 
 probably futile to argue with his data but pointed out that most retailers 
 take advantage of selling to both ends of the market and I do not understand 
 why he is taking this approach.  I received no response to this either.
 
 He claimed in his posting here that....
 
 > Analysis was done by several professional brewers and scores of 
 accomplished homebrewers.
 
 In the info he mailed out, he only mentions his wife and himself.  He also 
 refers to a "Midwestern micro-brewery" that prefers to use a Corona because 
 of its superior crushing.  I would be interested in knowing the name of this 
 brewery.  The only one I know of in the Midwest using a Corona, never heard 
 of him and the owner assures me it is a tight budget, not preference that has 
 him using the Corona.
 
 As this is the one and only MM ever returned for a refund, it is important to 
 me to make sure it is understood that something most peculiar is going on 
 here.  It happens that the one he purchased was a very early eiditon (number 
 5 or so) and many improvements have been made since.  All of the improvements 
 have been to enhance reliability or ease of use and there never has been a 
 problem with the crush quality.  Furthermore, all known problems with early 
 units have been resolved to mutual satisfaction and as far as I know, there 
 are no unhappy customers out there out of close to 500 users.
 
 I can't tell someone else how to run his business or attack him for his ads 
 but I can sure jump on him for his hit'n run attack in this forum.
 
 Where are you Roy?
 
 js

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Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1993 21:28:20 -0600 (CST)
From: brewmstr at ddsw1.mcs.com (Jim Bayer)
Subject: Irish Red Style Definition


I'm trying to find the "legitimate" definition for the Irish Red Ale
stlye.  I've heard that the style is becomming extinct, not unlike
Porter and I'm interested in any information I can get.

The history if Killians and the eventual sell out to Coors is interesting
but I don't think I have the whole story for that either.

Any recipes that are tue to the style would be appreciated.

Jim

*****************************************************************
* I'm not w*rrying, I'm having a homebrew!  You should too!     *
*                                                               *
* < Don't let your wife blame anything on your homebrewing >    *
* < Beer always tastes good, hangovers always go away (stolen) >*
* Jim Bayer -> Chicago, IL                                      *
* brewmstr at ddsw1.mcs.com    72416.1044 at compuserve.com           *
*****************************************************************   

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Date: Fri, 12 Feb 93 20:33:56 -0800
From: "Stephen Hansen" <hansen at gloworm.Stanford.EDU>
Subject: New additions to the HBD Archives.

Thanks to Ben Goetter we now have access to some the early digests
that had been missing from the archives.  More than a dozen from 1988
and four from 1989 have been added.  These digests are all from a
period before each issue was given a serial number and so they are
named with the date of issue (i.e. 881101 for Nov. 1, 1988).

I have placed the perl script written by Alan Edwards for computing
IBUs as a function of AAU, ounces, and boil time in the archives in
programs/iso.pl (listserv users send "get homebrew iso.pl").  See
Homebrew Digest #1073 (February 09, 1993) for more information.

And finally, in docs/hymn_to_ninkasi, is a copy of Miguel Civil's
translation of the Sumerian "Hymn to Ninkasi" as transcribed by Rick
Myers (listserv users send "get hymn_to_ninkasi").

I would like to request that those of you who are tranfering large
amounts to restrict your transfers to off hours, 5pm to 8am Pacific
Time.

Thanks,
Stephen Hansen
Homebrewer, Archivist, Beer Snob.

snob \'sn<a:>b\ n (1781)
 [obs. snob member of the lower classes, fr. E dial., shoemaker]
     1 Brit: COBBLER
     2: one who blatantly imitates, fawningly admires, or vulgarly seeks
     association with those he regards as his superiors
     3a: one who tends to rebuff, avoid, or ignore those he regards as inferior
     3b: one who has an offensive air of superiority in matters of knowledge
     or taste

Relax, lighten up, have a homebrew. :-)

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Date: Sat, 13 Feb 93 12:08:17 EST
From: "Matthew Mitchell" <IEKP898 at TJUVM.TJU.EDU>
Subject:  Reused Ballantine yeast

>On 'tother hand, Ballantine Brewery supposedly used this yeast strain
>over and over, repitching hundreds of times without any problems.  So
>I'm still scratching my head over this one.

Well since you mentioned it, I gotta relate a story I heard from the head
yeast guy at SchmidtUs of Philadelphia.  I gave a seminar and accompanying
laboratory 8^) on brewing biochemistry while in grad school and got the cook's
tour from him as part of the research.

He said that Schmidt's supplied yeast for another brewer he couldn't name but
I figured out was _Falstaff_ (not "Ballantine") in Cranston, RI.  Like most
other commercial ventures, Falstaff tried to keep its costs down, so they only
ordered yeast every few months.  Naturally, this boomeranged on them often, as
the yeast mutated or got contaminated, and Schmidt's would get an urgent call
from Cranston: "We need some more yeast, like yesterday!"  So the yeast guy
would grab the latest batch destined for mother Schmidt's, and put it on an
airplane.  The airplane would come back with a sachel full of money, since
Schmidt's knew Falstaff was over a barrel, and all the money they thought
they'd save by stretching the yeast eventually always got to Philadelphia.

Moral of the story: Recycling yeast usually works (e.g. Ballantine's IPA), but
sooner or later mother nature is gonna jump up and bite you on the wazoo!

Howzat!?!

Matthew Mitchell   <iekp898 at tjuvm.tju.edu>
  former proprietor: Penthouse Brewing Co., Haverford, PA
  brewers of Barclay Beer, Northern Comfort Stout,
    and Big B Malt Liquor "9.4% alcohol, 100% flavor"

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Date: Fri, 12 Feb 93 22:36:37 EST
From: jdg at cyberspace.org (Josh Grosse)
Subject: Diacetyl reduction and clarifiers

I was moved to post a response to several related questions in today's
issue (1076), regarding diacetyl reduction and clarification.  

Clarifiers such as Isinglass or Polyclar (tm) will reduce the yeast population
in suspension, which may be a contributing factor in diacetyl levels above
the taste threshold.  Diacetyl is more likely to be noticable in lagers
than in ales.

Racking from primary to secondary fermentation vessels too early may also
contribute to diacetyl flavor/aroma.

Since I'm addicted to Polyclar, I use a procedure called a "Diacetyl Rest"
at the end of fermentation before racking to the secondary fermenter.
This eliminates diacetyl nose, and I get a beer with excellent clarity.

After fermentation completes, I bring my primary fermenter up to 68-72 F
for 24-48 hours prior to racking to the secondary.  I add Polyclar, and
bring the secondary down to lagering temperature.

One note about clarifiers.  Spencer Thomas and I split a batch of Vienna
this fall.  We pitched the same yeast into the same wort, split the batch,
and fermented separately.  We even used the same temperature for fermentation.
HOWEVER, Spencer didn't use a clarifier, and I did.  Yes, I won points on
clarity -- Spencer won on malt nose and flavor.

Diacetyl references:  Miller: TCHOHB, and Fix: POBS.

- -----------------------------------------------------------------
Josh Grosse                              jdg at grex.ann-arbor.mi.us

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Date: Sun, 14 Feb 93 13:27:54 PST
From: davidr at ursula.ee.pdx.edu
Subject: Thanks! (was RE: Beginner wants to make SMALL batch...)

I just wanted to thank all helpful people who replied to my
plea for help.  Unfortunately, my mailbox has been flooded for
a week, and I am unable to make personal replies.  I am, however,
convinced to try something larger than the one gallon that I 
originally intended.  I will also somehow find the time to read
Papazian's book, as almost EVERY reply suggested!  Also, thanks
to those who provided definitions to the Brewian terminology that
I lack knowledge of.
 
 -David (Still learning) Robinson

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Date: Mon, 15 Feb 93 8:53:43 EST
From: klm at mscg.com (Kevin L. McBride)
Subject: Beer places of interest in Santa Clara, CA?

I'm scheduled to go to the Sun Developers Conference in Santa Clara,
CA at the end of March and would, quite naturally, like to spend my
free time checking out the local suds venues, i.e. brewpubs, micros
and beer bars.

Replies by e-mail graciously accepted.  Thanks.

- -- 
Kevin

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Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1993 09:35:19 -0600
From: trl at photos.wustl.edu (Tom Leith MIR/ERL 362-6965)
Subject: George Fix's Address

Sorry to bother *everyone* with this, but Rob is away, and two weeks is a long 
time to wait.  I'm trying to send mail to George Fix, and his address as it 
shows-up in the digest is not sufficiently complete to accomplish this 
(gjfix at utamat).  He does not seem to have a Compu$erve account.  If someone has 
a complete address, I'd appreciate your sending it to me...

TIA

	t (trl at photos.wustl.edu)

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Date: 15 Feb 1993 11:40:42 -0400 (AST)
From: Ed Hitchcock <ECH at ac.dal.ca>
Subject: Overnight mashing

Before you trash the ideas herein, please note that I DO regocnize bad 
beer when I taste it, and I DO know the reasons why the big names in 
brewing for the most part discourage these techniques.  I was an extract 
brewer for 4 years, and then made the switch to all-grain.  I sometimes 
wished I could return to extract for a quick batch, but frankly I can't 
afford kits anymore; after the initial expenses (and Christmas presents 
from Mother in law...) I can brew a bitter for under $10 (canadian), vs 
$20+ for an extract brew.  A few recent posts, particularly by George Fix 
and McHarry got me thinking about overnight mashing and cold sparging.  So 
here it is:  the EvenEZ-er OverNiteMash (c)*.

	0.  Pre-heat oven to 200 degrees F
	1.  Heat the mash water to 165 degrees F
	2.  add the grist slowly, stirring (gently) to ensure no dry spots
	3.  add heat slowly, stirring gently, until temeprature of the mash 
	is an even 155 degrees F
	4.  Turn off the oven, put the mash pot in the oven.  (if you use 
	an insulated tun, or your kettle won't fit in the oven, skip this 
	step, it probably won't make that much of a difference).
	5.  Go to bed.
	6.  The following morning, remove the mash from the oven, and take 
	the lid off (if it had one on).  This will cool it down quicker.
	7.  When the mash is cool, dump it in the lauter tun (two bucket 
	type works just fine).
	8.  Sparge with COLD water.
	9.  Boil as usual.

	(I wouldn't reccommend this for a brew which needs step infusion or 
decoction, this process is for a beer requiring only a single stage infusion  
mash, such as an English bitter.)

	I hear you screaming "But there's no mashout!"  "My extraction 
rates will be way down!"  "My sparge will stick!"
	To which I reply: So what, no it won't, and I had no problem, in 
that order.  To qualify, as the temperature drops, the enzymes become less 
active, plus the alpha amylase has been to some degree inactivated by the 
high initial temp.  Furthermore, part of the reason for the mashout is to 
eliminate a variable in brewing a specific beer; commercial breweries want 
to control ALL variables so each batch comes out the same.  We're 
homebrewers, we don't haveto listen to the bullies if we don't want to.  As 
for extraction rates, mine were virtually identical to my hot sparge rates 
(which were not spectacular, but a reasonable 26-27 points or so).  As for 
the stuck sparge, I can't say I've EVER had one.  When making a two-bucket 
lauter tun, tape 1cm graph paper to the bottom, and drill the holes evenly. 
You will wind up with almost twice as many holes, believe it or not, and no 
uneven drainage of the grain bed.
	I wonder if one reason for commercial breweries using a hot sparge 
is that it requires much less energy to heat the sweet wort to boiling 
afterwards...
	Anyway, this requires about 1/2 hour before bed (not including 
grain grinding time), and about 3 1/2 hours the following day, making the 
time consumption much more like making an extract brew.  Another major 
advantage is virtually no hot side aeration (HSA) save for the mash (which 
is why you stir it GENTLY).  
	As a disclaimer, I just did this over the weekend, so I don't know 
yet how the final product will taste, but I will keep you posted.

	Ed Hitchcock
	Dalhousie University
	Anatomy and Neurobiology
	ech at ac.dal.ca


* EvenEZ-er OverNiteMash and other silly ideas in this text are copyrighted 
to Ed Hitchcock, 1993.  Use them freely, use them glibly, just don't use 
them for profit.

	

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End of HOMEBREW Digest #1078, 02/16/93