FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Rob Gardner, Digest Coordinator


Contents:
  Installing a Spigot ("Tom")
  Getting Rid of Detergent Residue? (esonn1)
  Sour Brew, Part II (Dan Wood)
  yeast strain selection (THOMASR)
  still more BAA information ("Spencer W. Thomas")
  an HBD-inspired yeast experiment (Joe Boardman)
  I killed my yeast! (Russ Gelinas)
  Australian Yeast (George J Fix)
  galvanized hardware cloth ok for sparging? (John Isenhour)
  The results are in (Chuck Coronella)
  snobs (chris campanelli)
  New Brewmaster at Dock Street (Joseph Nathan Hall)
  wild yeast media/Micah's st ("Daniel F McConnell")
  My yeast is alive! (Russ Gelinas)
  Mash temps. / Digest plumbing (Norm Pyle)
  Archives (Michael Galloway)
  lagering (John_D._Sullivan.wbst311)
  grain bill (Michael Galloway)
  Other Digests (Mark Cronenweth)
  Test Message (Al Marshall)
  hops: rec.gardens request (fwd) (Paul dArmond)
  apologies for previous post (Paul dArmond)
  recipe request (maple) (southard)
  MM vs Corona (korz)
  Beginner questions/aeration/break/too bitter/Irish Red (korz)
  Birmingham Brewing Tour (Part I) (Guy McConnell)
  Re: wyeast 2308 and other stuff (TAN1)
  root beer (Michael Gildner)


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		IMPORTANT NEWS -- PLEASE READ
		-----------------------------

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----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 15 Feb 93 08:47:09 GMT
From: "Tom" <ceco!CWEMAIL!WAUTS at uunet.UU.NET>
Subject: Installing a Spigot

         Date: 02/15/93
         From: Tom Stolfi                                            - CWE1IIN
           To: Open-Addressing Application for Internet Acc INLINE   - CWEMAIL
      Subject: Installing a Spigot
- -------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I am just getting into all grainers and have found that a spigot installed in
the boil kettle would speed things up.  I have a porcelain over steel
stockpot. What type of material is the spigot, what is the cost to install,
where can I get the parts, and how long does it take to install?



Tom Stolfi                                           wauts at cwemail.ceco.com
Commonwealth Edison Co                               Waukegan, IL













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Date: Mon, 15 Feb 93 10:58:52 -0500
From: esonn1 at cc.swarthmore.edu
Subject: Getting Rid of Detergent Residue?

>Ulick Stafford writes that detergents should not be used on brewing equipment.
> Unfortunately, I have already used detergents on my fermenter several times. 
>I always sterilize the fermenter and all other brewing equipment using a
>bleach solution before brewing, but I am worried about any detergent residue. 
>Other than using TSP or other base cleaners, is there a product I should use
>to get rid of any lingering detergent residue?  Our beer has generally been
>slow to carbonate, but when it does, it usually carbonates sufficiently.  
>
>Thanks in advance,
>
>Eugene Sonn
>esonn1 at cc.swarthmore.edu
>


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Date: Mon, 15 Feb 93 10:06:40 CST
From: wood at ranger.rtsg.mot.com (Dan Wood)
Subject: Sour Brew, Part II

   First let me say thanks to those who replied in HBD and via email.
Experimentation with food grade acid is an interesting thought.  Does
anyone see problems with adding small amounts to just a few bottles at
bottling time?  Not that I'm nervous or anything, but I hate to take
chances with 5 gallons at a time. 

   Anyway, my friend Brent tried following Charlie's directions.  He
placed a quantity (sorry, I'm unsure of amount) of pale malt in a cooler
with 5 gallons of water at 130 F.  He covered the cooler and left it for
19 hours.  The temperature had only dropped 20 degrees to 110 F, and
the liquid was sweet, with no sign of sourness  (tartness?) and no
noticible growth.  It may have stayed too hot, any other ideas about
what went wrong?

   Also, I had the pleasure of sharing an Imperial Stoudt and 
Taddy Porter (Samuel Smiths) yesterday, and they both seemed to have
a bit of sourness, perhaps more noticable in the Imperial Stoudt.
Perhaps I'm misinterpreting something in the flavor, but there does
seem to be a much more distinct sour flavor than I've experienced in
beers with much more dark grains.


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Date: Mon, 15 Feb 93 17:12:38 MET
From: THOMASR at EZRZ1.vmsmail.ethz.ch
Subject: yeast strain selection

hello all.
on this thread about yeast strain selection aka finding a
growth medium that will kill everything but the yeast you
actually want, I have a few comments.
Firstly, there seem to be two lines of discussion going
on at the same time, one concerns getting rid of so-called
"bugs" and the other concerns getting rid of "wild" yeasts.
So, the bug problem first:
most of the bacteria we are likely to get in our yeast
supply can't survive acidic conditions, so if you 
sterilise (ie boil) your growth medium (eg wort),
which you have previuosly adjusted to pH 4-5 (unnecessary
if you mashed your own), the bacteria will not grow anywhere
near as fast as your yeast. By the time the sugar is
used up, there may well be enough alcohol in there to
stop all bacterial growth. (I brew a strong (1085) ale
just so that I can get a sample of yeast from the bottled
version when I need one).

The wild yeast problem, as far as my research has dug up,
is not at all trivial. You can stop the growth of
ale (top) yeasts compared to lager yeasts by fermenting
them on mellibiose as the sugar source. (this should be
availabe from Aldrich chemical co, etc). There are no
other sure fire ways of separating yeasts, unless you
know EXACTLY who the stranger in your wort is.
How about streaking plates, and doing small scale
runs with all the yeast looking colonies that appear,
and then isolating the strain you want by taste or
rapidity of clearance. This is how they do it in the breweries.
(Assuming they misslaid the clean strain or
are looking for a better one.


I suppose, having finished this note, that I 
haven't really said anything new. Oh well.

Rob Thomas.
P.S. More brewing/beer quotes please..."Poe" was great!

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Date: Mon, 15 Feb 93 11:36:11 EST
From: "Spencer W. Thomas" <Spencer.W.Thomas at med.umich.edu>
Subject: still more BAA information

BadAssAstronomer writes:
 >     The Jan 93 selections were; Mass Bay Brewing Winter Warmer and
 >     Fisher Brewing Dark Ale.

We tasted these yesterday at the brewclub meeting.  "Dark Ale" is a
misnomer.  This stuff was sort of copper colored.  I'd say it's at the
dark end of the pale ale spectrum.  The flavor was nothing to get
excited about, either.

The Mass Bay Winter Warmer, on the other hand was excellent.  Nicely
spiced, but not overwhelming.  So many spiced beers have a sort of
sour flavor, but this does not.  Our meeting was outside at a local
park, and I'd say that the Winter Warmer lived up to its name.

=Spencer W. Thomas 		|  Info Tech and Networking, B1911 CFOB, 0704
   "Genome Informatician"	|  Univ of Michigan, Ann Arbor, MI 48109
Spencer.W.Thomas at med.umich.edu	|  313-764-8065, FAX 313-764-4133

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Date: Mon, 15 Feb 93 10:18:24 MST
From: Joe Boardman <boardman at amber.Colorado.EDU>
Subject: an HBD-inspired yeast experiment

G'day All,

This weekend I started a little experiment that was inspired by a thread here
a few months ago: "just what are the differences introduced by ale and lager
yeasts?".

I brewed a 10 gallon batch of a pretty generic (but leaning towards a lager)
wort.  Then as it came out of the counterflow I split it back and forth 
between 2 glass carboys.  One of these was pitched with a Wyeast 2007 (Pilsen)
lager yeast, and is fermenting away at 50-53F. The other was pitched with a
Wyeast 1056 (aka SNPA) ale yeast, and is doing its thing separately at 65F.

The recipe was:

Virginia's Advice Ale/Lager

12 lbs Klages American 2-row malted barley
2  lbs Hinode Calrose California rice
5  oz Saaz plugs  at 3.1 alpha
2  oz Tettnang pellets  at 4.3 alpha
+ the two yeasts mentioned above

I ground the rice, boiled it and cooled it to 130 with ice.  Then I mashed in 
the grain and the rice at 130 and held for 30 minutes, then did a 2 hour mash
between 152 and 145F.  The IG was 11.8 Brix (about 1.047), which means my 
extract rate was in the low 30's.

I guess what I've really done is brew a lager and ferment half of it as an ale.
I made it very light in color and body so the yeast differences wouldn't be 
masked.  Next time, to be fair, I guess I`ll have to brew an ale-type and do it
again. 

Does anybody want to hazard a guess about the taste differences?
Does "clean" really mean anything?
Is anybody going to be in Boulder in about 2 months to try some in person?
Does anybody "know" they can tell them apart in a double-blind test?
I'll report back if there's interest.

Cheers,  Joe   

"Remember, never take no cutoffs, and hurry along as fast as you can."
advice from Virginia Reed, 1847, after surviving the Donner Party debacle

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Date:    Mon, 15 Feb 1993 13:27:20 -0500 (EST)
From: R_GELINAS at UNHH.UNH.EDU (Russ Gelinas)
Subject: I killed my yeast!

  Yes I did, and it was cultured-from-the-bottle Chimay Red yeast :-(
The bleach-water was most of the way back up the blow-off tube, and when 
I lifted it out of the overflow container to drain it back down, it splashed 
back up the tube and into the wort.  What looked to be a ferment starting is 
now dead, dead, dead.  It made me wonder why I had bleach in the overflow 
bucket anyway.  Obviously, disconnection the blow-off at the carboy end
would have been a much better idea.

  My plan is to boil it again, to boil off the bleach, cool it, and if it 
still tastes ok, pitch some other yeast.  Will this work, or has the chlorine 
already ruined it?  I'm not happy......

Russ G.

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Date: Tue, 15 Feb 94 14:01:22 -0600
From: gjfix at utamat.uta.edu (George J Fix)
Subject: Australian Yeast

This post is a request for information from those who have brewed
with strains of active dry yeast from Australia. The strains I am
particularly interested in are Mauri Foods Y327 Ale, and Mauri Foods
Y497 Lager. It is my understanding that they were (are?) distributed
in Canada by Superior Brewing Supplies. I am preparing a talk for the
Microbrewers Conference in New Orleans, which will survey the important
yeast strains currently available. There are some small operations,
which due to limitations of equipment and other reasons, are forced into 
the use of dry yeast. Thus, I felt it is important to touch on some of
the better versions. I have been told that the above strains have very high 
% cell viabilities, and very low bacterial/wild yeast counts. Private e-mail
relating practical experience with these strains would be gratefully received. 

George Fix


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Date: Sun, 14 Feb 93 17:57:59 CST
From: hopduvel!john at linac.fnal.gov (John Isenhour)
Subject: galvanized hardware cloth ok for sparging?

I've been wanting to build a mash/sparge cooler with a mesh filter 
as the rigid manifold arrangement sits a little too high off the
bottom of my cooler.  I havent been able to locate brass or stainless 
mesh locally but I found some 1/8" galvanized hardware cloth.  I haven't 
heard of anyone using this - is there a problem?  Also, what is a 
reasonable minimum length of mesh if its rolled into a tube?
 
tnx!
- -- 
John de HopDuvel                     
home:john at hopduvel.uucp
work:isenhour at lambic.fnal.gov

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Date: Mon, 15 Feb 93 21:42 MTS
From: Chuck Coronella <CORONELLRJDS at CHE.UTAH.EDU>
Subject: The results are in

The results of a survey of the HBD readership are in!  As you may recall, I 
recently submitted a note to the HBD (about a week and a half ago) inviting 
everyone to mail me with a desriptor of their brewing level.  What a 
response!!  By 10 a.m., I'd received more than 100 responses!  Thanks to all 
for participating.  (And what a talkative crowd!  Sorry that I couldn't answer
messages individually.) 

The admittedly inadequately simple categories from which I asked people to
choose were as follows: 

All Grain            if you rarely use extract for your brewing, other than 
                     for yeast culturing,

Intermediate         if you do some mashing, partial mashing, some yeast 
                     culturing, etc., but you don't consider yourself very 
                     experienced, or

Extract              if you are relatively new to the brewing process, haven't 
                     tried mashing, or in general, consider yourself to be on 
                     the steepest part of the learning curve.

The tallies are as follows:
All Grain:       55
Intermediate:    65
Extract:         69

I'd like to make a few comments regarding the survey.

Categorization:  Obviously, as stated above, a categarization of only three
simple slots describes the multidimensional brewer only crudely.  Some people
have _never_ brewed with extract; some have brewed for ten or more years with
extract only.  And so on.  I wanted to conduct this poll only to convince
novice brewers that they really should use the HBD, not to annoy readers by
forcing them to categorize themselves.  Enough said! 

Statistical Discussion:  The results to this poll are most likely not truly 
representative of the entire HBD readership.  I can think of several readers 
who regularly post in the HBD who didn't reply.  I'm sure that more than 189 
people read the HBD.  And I suspect that the tone of my original message might
have motivated those on the steepest part of the learning curve to reply,
skewing the results. Also, bravado or modesty might cause people to describe
themselves incorrectly. 

Use of the HBD:  I did all this for one simple reason.  I want new brewers to 
feel free to use the HBD as a valuable resource for talking with experienced
brewers for the purpose of improving their brewing, as I did.  Several
beginners told me that they were certainly intimidated from asking questions. 
The HBD has got to be the greatest resource available; use it.  From my
results, a _significant_ fraction of the readership brews extract only. 
You're not alone! 

A few commented that they're annoyed by such questions as "How do you brew 
beer?"  Obviously, questions like this are inappropriate, but this doesn't 
mean that all discussion should be on the level of comparitive mashing 
methods.  So, use the HBD, but use it wisely.

So there you have it.  An incomplete, inadequate survey of the HBD readership. 
That's my contribution to brewing science for now.  (But with a Ph.D. in
chemical engineering, I should be able to do better than that!) 

Cheers!
Chuck

P.S.  For those who must know, I have never tried mashing.  I use extracts and 
specialty grains (and fruits and spices too, yumm!)  Maybe someday when I get 
a regular job (and a house with a basement).

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Date: Mon, 15 Feb 93 22:29 CST
From: akcs.chrisc at vpnet.chi.il.us (chris campanelli)
Subject: snobs

>
> In Michigan, you will find very little broken glass, nor will
> find litter from empty cans or cardboard packaging . . .
>
 
     Really?  Guess you've never been to Detroit.
 
 
Lately there seems to be a tendency towards complaining about the
various types of snobs that can be found on the Digest.  Be it
all-grain or unix, I feel that these gripes are small potatoes. 
I think there exists a more serious type of snob out there which
threatens the very foundation of the homebrewing community.  And
since it looks like no one else notices, I shall take it upon
myself to point it out the general HBD community.
 
I would like to complain about fart snobs.
 
I'm sure you're aware of whom I speak.  Tell me if this sounds
familiar:  You're at a homebrew gathering, drinking a beer,
trying to decipher the subtle nuances of the hop aroma, the malt
nose and the estery parfum when all of a sudden: (sniff)  Oh man! 
Who the hell did that?  GODDAMMITROGER!!!
 
We have all suffered from such individuals.  You know who they
are.  Its that special breed of homebrewer who can bust worse
than anyone else around.
 
This is one type of snob I cannot tolerate. It's not enough that
a fart snob can emit such a heinous stench and at the same time
maintain the facade of calm innocence nor make an otherwise
gentle, God-fearing group of people trample one another in a
stampede for fresh air.  What really irks me is that these people
won't share their technique with others.
 
How do they do it?  What's the secret?  How can they rip so vile
that eyes water, dogs howl and vultures circle?  
 
God knows I've tried.  I've eaten all the wrong foods.  I've done
shots of yeast slurry.  Hell, I've even sampled all the novice
homebrew put in front of me.  The result?  Nothing.  Oh sure,
what I could pass showed promise since it did offend my wife,
especially when I wafted the blankets.  But I think its more of a
female thing than anything else.
 
Which brings up another question: why don't women fart?  Is their
anatomy different in that the human female can't physically fart? 
Lets face it, have you ever heard a woman let one go?  I know I
haven't.  It is my personal opinion that if a woman would fart
periodically, and I mean really let loose with a long, loud
stinkie, she would feel a lot better.  Hell, I'll go one step
further to say that most problems in the world today could be
solved diplomatically if the two parties involved would just sit
down and rip a few together.  Who's to say it wouldn't work. 
Stranger things have happened.  But I digress.
 
After much contemplation, I have come to the conclusion that
maybe, just maybe, I not destined for such greatness.  Perhaps I
should accept the fact that I'm just a mediocre farter.  It could
be that these people are not self-made but born to greatness.
 
 
chris campanelli

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Date: Tue, 16 Feb 93 01:33:22 EDT
From: joseph at joebloe.maple-shade.nj.us (Joseph Nathan Hall)
Subject: New Brewmaster at Dock Street


I just spent an entertaining evening tasting infected beers at our
new homebrewing club (now officially christened B.U.Z.Z. -- Beer
Unlimited's Zany Zymurgists, after the store that sponsors it).  The
guest of honor was Nick Funnell, new (2 mo.) head brewmaster at Dock
Street in Philadelphia.

Nick is an entirely pleasant tall, lanky somewhat English fellow who
obviously has a great love of beer, and in particular cask ale.  I
think things are looking up for Dock Street.  (Jim Busch, did you
hear this?  It's about time!)

Nick brought along an ersatz "Framboise," which he claimed had a Flanders
brown base.  I'm practicing for the BJCP exam and was busily filling
out scoresheets as the beers wandered by, and was oh-so-pleased to
give his (Dock Street's) brew a 41.  Really, the only problem with
it was a slight lack of body.  Otherwise it was nearly perfectly balanced,
with an awesome raspberry nose, tenacious head, clear and tart fruit
flavor, and an interesting chocolate-toasted malt finish.  One of
those beers even your WIFE would love.  (Not my words, but we know
the stereotypes.)

He plans to import some casks from England shortly, and claims to
be addicted to real ale.  Judging by the slight shudder and glassy look
he gave while saying this ...

It turns out that his apartment is right on my way home.  Since he
lacks a car at this point, I dropped him off and was invited in to
share some cocoa with him and his wife Barbara.

Why do we make it so hard for these people to get work permits?  We
need MORE of them!

Yes, I think things are looking up at Dock Street!

================O Fortuna, velut Luna, statu variabilis================
uunet!joebloe!joseph   (609) 273-8200 day   joseph%joebloe at uunet.uu.net
2102 Ryan's Run East        Rt 38 & 41             Maple Shade NJ 08052
Copyright 1993 by Joseph N. Hall.   Permission granted to copy and
redistribute freely over USENET and by email.  Commercial use prohibited.

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Date: 16 Feb 1993 09:23:52 -0500
From: "Daniel F McConnell" <Daniel.F.McConnell at med.umich.edu>
Subject: wild yeast media/Micah's st

                       Subject:                               Time:9:19 AM
  OFFICE MEMO          wild yeast media/Micah's starter       Date:2/16/93
In HBD #1077 George Fix writes:
Subject: Wild Yeast

>It is my opinion that the major open problem in brewing
>microbiology today is the formulation of an accurate,
>practical, and rapid media for the detection of 
>nonculture yeast. The problem is one of a needle in a
>haystack......
>In commercial work, even lower levels of detection are 
>required (typically in the cells per 100 ml. range).

Have you (or anyone else out there) tried Lin's wild yeast 
medium?  I think it contains crystal violet as a culture yeast 
inhibitor, allowing wild yeasts to grow (or rather, to grow 
better).  Is it better-worse-same-faster than cupric sulfate?  
The 8th Edition of the ASBC Methods of Analysis contains a 
section on this media, so I assume that it has some utility 
and some brewery is using it.  Of course if a well funded 
individual has the ASBC MOA maybe they could respond.  The
 media is available from Siebel.


Another note:
I have only been on the digest since #999 and in one of the
 early issuse I saw a reference to Micah's Magical (bionic)
 Starter.  Can anyone either publish the recipe again or direct
 me to the appropriate back issue?  Thanks.


DanMcC




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Date:    Tue, 16 Feb 1993 10:00:28 -0500 (EST)
From: R_GELINAS at UNHH.UNH.EDU (Russ Gelinas)
Subject: My yeast is alive!

   Looks like the bleach solution did not kill the yeast.  I warmed up
the carboy (by surrounding it with gallon jars of hot water), and it's
now fermenting.  How the chlorine will affect the taste, I don't know.
But it's Chimay yeast, so I can blame any odd flavors on the "weird"
yeast :-).

RussG

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Date: Tue, 16 Feb 93 08:10:43 MST
From: pyle at intellistor.com (Norm Pyle)
Subject: Mash temps. / Digest plumbing

Andrius asks about Miller's recommended mash temps.  I may be speaking out of
turn here, since I don't have my copy of Miller handy, but....  I believe
Miller's book is mostly about brewing lagers.  If that bit of heresay is
actually true, then it may explain something.  If he is out to brew the
finest lager, he doesn't want any starch haze making him look bad.  So, he
wants to make sure all starch conversion is complete; if it's not, he's
going to get a starch haze.

To the numbers you mentioned:  I believe he said (or meant to say) that _all_
of the starch _may not_ dissolve below 149F.  In fact, I would bet most of it
does, which is something you can probably get away with in a dark, muddy ale.
I don't remember him asking for anything as low as 141F but it may be so.  I
personally like to mash in the 152 - 158 F range for more body, less alcohol.
Unfortunately, I always seem to screw up and get a nice variety of mashing
temps before it's all over. ;-) :-0

Mike Schrempp posted about some outfeed roller to use in a mill.  Thanks,
Mike.  I have one question:  does the catalog mention the diameter of the
rollers?  (I assume the 14" and 22" are lengths)  A larger diameter is
better for grabbing the grain.

A note about posting to the digest:  If you receive a reply from the daemon
that says it will post your article, it _will_ post your article.  If it says
something like: "there are 42 articles ahead of yours", then it probably
won't get in the digest for a couple of days.  Anything more than about 30
and there's no way it'll make it in the next digest.  Please be patient.  My
article posted today 2/16 was sent on 2/12.  The digest needs a serious dose
of liquid plumber, or less posts about snobs, to clear this up.  In the
meantime, double postings just make things worse, so just cool it and have a
beer.

Cheers,
Norm

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Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1993 10:38:31 -0500
From: mgx at solid.ssd.ornl.gov (Michael Galloway)
Subject: Archives


Neil,

I think that the idea of creating and maintaining thread/faq/usefull info
archives is long overdue. Nothing could be more usefull than to ftp to
the archive and grab a file with information on, say, building a picnic
cooler mash/lauter tun (I built one from a 10 gal gott and a 12 in. Phils
Phalse Bottom, next brew is going to be all grain!).  If you need help
or support let me know, I would be glad to manage a thread if that would
help lessen the burden.

Michael D. Galloway
mgx at ornl.gov

Living in the WasteLand (of Beer, that is!)


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Date: 	Tue, 16 Feb 1993 07:40:36 PST
From: John_D._Sullivan.wbst311 at xerox.com
Subject: lagering

I'm a fairly experienced brewer (all-grain) trying something new to me, a pale
lager. I made a starter with my Wyeast pilsen lager yeast (2007?) and pitched
at 70 deg F. I had a short lag time and proceeded to lower the temp slowly to
50 deg with my hi-tech lagering system ;carboy covered up sitting under a
cracked basement window. (I know, I should have just opened the window.)  :)
My questions are these:
1)When should I rack to secondary? (with ales I just do primary)
2)When should I dryhop?
3)will minor temperature swings(48-55) adversely affect the beer or should I
just rdwhahb?
Replies are greatly appreciated.
John

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Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1993 11:12:17 -0500
From: mgx at solid.ssd.ornl.gov (Michael Galloway)
Subject: grain bill


Hey ...

I went down to my local brew shop yesterday to but some grain for my first
batch of all-grain brew (a SNPA clone).  The proprietor looked at me rather
dubiously when i gave him the grain bill:

        8 lb British Pale Ale Malt
        1 lb British Crystal Malt (50L)

He seemed to think that the grain bill was short.  I figured that with
30 pts/lb/gal I would get an OG of about 1050.  He made some comments
about Dave Millers unrealistic effiencies and seemed to think that 25
pts/lb/gal was more reasonable.  I assumed that 30 was a "good" number
considering all i've read here on the digest. My setup is a 10 gal Gott
cooler with a Phils Phalse Bottom as a combination mash/lauter tun.  Am 
I being unrealistic?  Perhaps I should go buy another pound or two?  

michael galloway
mgx at ornl.gov

Living in the WasteLand (of Beer, that is!)


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Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1993 11:23 EST
From: Mark Cronenweth <CRONEN at vms.cis.pitt.edu>
Subject: Other Digests


In a recent HBD, I heard mention of the Cider Digest.  The address for this
digest was posted, I SUB'd, and have received some great info. that I know is
going to improve my cider tremendously - thanks Jay.
I've also heard rumors of a MEAD DIGEST out there somewhere.  If anybody has
addresses for any online MEAD info., recipes, etc. please post me at:
                    CRONEN at VMS.CIS.PITT.EDU
Some purists will probably flame me for mentioning other fermentable materials
on the HBD, but I can't help myself!  I love the HBD & look forward to reading
it every day.  I even check my mail for it on weekends.  But I'm just a
sleaze-bag when it comes to fermentation.  I'm not too proud to ferment
anything (once) !    
  
- -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mark Cronenweth
University of Pittsburgh
School of Education

"From the sublime to the ridiculous is but a step."  - Napoleon
- -------------------------------------------------------------------------------


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Date: Tue, 16 Feb 93 10:03:34 PST
From: alm at brewery.ht.intel.com (Al Marshall)
Subject: Test Message

Test Message; Please forgive the use of bandwidth.

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Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1993 08:59:31 -0800 (PST)
From: Paul dArmond <paulf at henson.cc.wwu.edu>
Subject: hops: rec.gardens request (fwd)

James,
      I've been getting my hop cuttings froms Freshops in Philomath, Ore. 
They have given good service and are quite friendly over the phone. 
Directory assistance for are code (503) should find them...

I don't have any here at work, but you should check out Zymurgy magazine. 
This is the publication of the American Homebrewers Association.  It can
be found at large newsdealers and bookstores (usually among the gourmet
and food/wine magazines).  Everyone that sells hop cuttings advertises here.

If you want more info and contacts, send e-mail message with both the
subject and message "SUSCRIBE" to homebrew-request@ hpfcmi.fc.ph.com to get
the daily internet digest for homebrewers.  It has around 1500 members and
is better behaved than rec.crafts.brewing where it is also echoed.

cheers,
Paul de Armond.


- ---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1993 12:07:01 -0800
From: Mark Turner <mturner at henson.cc.wwu.edu>
To: paulf at henson.cc.wwu.edu
Subject: hops: rec.gardens request

Paul,  I came across this request in rec.gardens and thought you might be
able to shed some light for the interested party.

- -- Mark

 James White
(james at rchland.vnet.ibm.com) wrote:

: Speaking of beer making and gardening.  Does anyone know of a good source
: for hop plants?  I believe that I have to buy the roots.  I see in some of
: of the catalogs, adds for hops but they are all from the same source and none
: provide the real variety name.

I mail ordered hop rhizomes from Marysville Oast in Oregon. I don't
have a phone number for them, but here's the address:

Marysville Oast
866 NE 1000 Oaks
Corvallis, OR 97330

I don't recall which varieties I purchased (and the markers are
covered with snow right now, so I can't read them from here!), but
both grew well and produced modestly, which is expected in the first
year. I'm looking forward to an increased harvest this fall!


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Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1993 09:12:35 -0800 (PST)
From: Paul dArmond <paulf at henson.cc.wwu.edu>
Subject: apologies for previous post

To All,
       sorry about the preceeding post.  I used cc: to get the digest
address and forgot to delete the cc: line before sending.
Mea Culpa,
Paul.


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Date: Tue, 16 Feb 93 10:34:50 PST
From: southard at biology.UCSC.EDU
Subject: recipe request (maple)

In HBD #1078, Eric Mrozek mentioned a Maple Ale recipe posted "a couple o'
months back". This may have been before I started reading the digest. 
Anyway it happens that I picked up a quart of maple syrup (grade c, dark 
amber, $6) just yesterday. Any and all suggestions for using this in a
brew would be appreciated. I would definitely like to be able to taste
the maple - is a qt too much for 5 gal? For backround, I am not an all
grain brewer, but have done several partial mashes with good results.
I know that Cats Meow probably contains some good maple beer recipes,
but I don't know how to access it. Thanks in advance for any help.

Jon Southard       

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Date: Tue, 16 Feb 93 13:12 CST
From: korz at iepubj.att.com
Subject: MM vs Corona

JS writes:
> In the info he mailed out, he only mentions his wife and himself.  He also
> refers to a "Midwestern micro-brewery" that prefers to use a Corona because
> of its superior crushing.  I would be interested in knowing the name of this
> brewery.  The only one I know of in the Midwest using a Corona, never heard
> of him and the owner assures me it is a tight budget, not preference that has
> him using the Corona.

I have spoken to that brewmaster from the "Midwestern micro-brewery" and 
he did say to me that he prefers the crush of the Corona mill (drill-powered
by the way) over the MaltMill, but I disagreed with him then and still
disagree with him.  He and Roy seem to be the only two people that I've
heard of liking the Corona over the MaltMill.  I have an older model MaltMill
and am very happy with it, but the more-recent ones I've seen are, indeed,
even better.  On the older models, two pieces of plastic blocked grains from
"falling off the end of the roller in stead of being crushed" whereas the
current design has the rollers going all the way flush with their mounting
plates.  On my design, I need to put a tray under the outlet chute to
catch the grains -- the current design sits over a bucket, which, by the
way, reduces airbourne grain dust.  As much as I've disagreed with Jack
(I've got a few megabytes of off-line arguments on disk too), I've got to
admit, he's built the best homebrew-sized grain mill on the market.

Al.

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Date: Tue, 16 Feb 93 14:11 CST
From: korz at iepubj.att.com
Subject: Beginner questions/aeration/break/too bitter/Irish Red

Nathan writes:
>I have recently become interested in HB, and have been reading HBD for a few 
>mos. I am wondering if there are any magazines out there for HB, especially
>ones with help, hints and recipes for the novice.  I have seen some
>references to "Zymurgy" in articles by Bob Jones and others.  Is this what I'm
>looking for?  Also any good liturature for the beginner?

Yes, Zymurgy has articles targeted for virtually all homebrewers ranging
from beginner to expert.  I think that not only a subsciption is in order
if you are serious about homebrewing, but also get back-issues also (especially
the special issues on Hops, Extract, Troubleshooting and eventually All-grain).
I feel the best way to start, however is by reading "The New Complete Joy
of Homebrewing" by Charlie Papazian.  The articles in Zymurgy will make more
sense when you learn the basics and the vocabulary of homebrewing.

>Thank you,
>Nate Clark
>grs04736 at conrad.appstate.edu
                 ^^^^^^^^
Look up Kinney Baughman if he hasn't contacted you yet.  He may still be
as AppState, but last heard he's a brewmaster somewhere in the vicinity.

************************
John writes:
>	I could use a little help with the subjects of wort aeration and 
>the formation and importance of hot and cold break.
>	First, wort aeration.  On reading beginner's books I get the impres-
>sion that I should boil up my extract, grains, etc in my brewpot, and then
>pour the wort through a strainer into my primary, pitch the yeast, seal and
>leave alone.  Through this forum and from other sources I've learned that
>the yeast needs oxygen to reproduce therefore the wort should be shaken,
>stirred vigorously just before or after pitching.  What is the experts'
>advice?  Do I leave the wort alone or not?

If you are doing a full, 5-gallon boil, pouring it through a strainer will
aerate it enough, but you should let it cool before aerating.  When the
wort is hot (over 80F) the oxygen you add during aeration will react with
compounds in the wort to oxidize them.  This is Hot Side Aeration (HSA)
which you've probably noticed lately in HBD and is generally regarded as
bad (although it appears that many breweries get away with it).  If you
are doing a partial boil, as you've noted that you do, I feel you still
may need to do some aeration to get a good amount of oxygen in the wort.
The warning about letting it cool below 80F before aerating STILL APPLIES.
Make sure you don't use your wooden spoon to aerate -- you just can't
sanitize wood well enough and should only use wooden utensils in the boil.

>	Regarding hot andcold break.  As I understand it hot break is formed
>during the boiling of the wort.  Cold break must be formed by cooling the 
>wort after the boil.  A few questions.  I only boil about one and a half
>gallons and add that to three and a half gallons of water in my primary -
>does just chilling the 1 1/2 gallons produce a cold break? 

Yes, the down side is that with a 5-gallon boil you will have to leave
a quart of wort behind in the kettle to avoid pouring the break into the
fermenter.  With a 1.5-gallon boil you will still have something close to
a quart of break which is a much bigger percentage of your boil.  Some
have suggested putting this break-wort in a jar, letting it settle in the
fridge and using it, but that's too much to worry about right now.

>Does the rate of
>cooling affect the formation of a cold break and if so how fast should it
>be cooled?

Yes.  The simple answer is: "as quickly as possible" but to give you a
rough idea, in the wintertime, with my immersion chiller, I get from
212F to 70F in about 15-20 minutes, depending on the thickness of the
wort.

>I'm assuming that cooling my 1 1/2 gal of wort does produce a
>cold break which settles to the bottom of my pot with the hot break - should
>I take care and siphon the wort off the trub into the primary?

I just pour it into the primary and stop just before the trub (break) begins
to go in.  It's usually 1-2 quarts of wort.

>If I siphon
>the wort off the trub am I leaving nutrients in the trub that the yeast need?

The yeast CAN use the nutrients in the trub, but if you've aerated well, the
yeast can synthesize everything they need -- getting it from the trub is just
a shortcut for the yeast.  Ideally, you may want to give the yeast a few
hours in the wort with the break and then siphon off into your primary, but
don't worry about it if you don't.

>	Any help would be greatly appriciated as even the beginners books 
>are not crystal clear to the beginner.

Yes and much less interactive than the HBD.

*************************
Alexander writes:
>I have just tried a new batch of beer which I brewed with a pilsner kit
>(M&F?) in which instead of adding only sugar to the malt mix I used
>malt concentrate.  My problem is that the taste is too bitter/(malty?). 
>I would like some suggestions if anyone has any as to why it has turned
>out so bitter and general guidelines as to the proper use of malt
>extract.  There is definately the appropriate amount of alcohol though...

There is hopped malt extract and unhopped malt extract, if you added hopped
malt extract to your pilsner kit (which, by the way is a bitter style to
begin with) you may have made it too bitter for your taste.

>My process went as such.
>boiled all the water and the malt sugar (liquid), malt extract, and sugar.
>then I dumped it all in the carboy as usual.
>after cooling I dumped in the yeast ( came with the  kit)
>after a week in the carboy I added gelatin as a fining agent 
>waited a few more days and racked to bottles.  I have since let the
>bottles sit the required three weeks plus a few days.

>I have just opened the beer and drunk some, not bad or yeasty as if it
>was opened too soon, but definately too bitter.

Fear not.  The bitterness will mellow a little with age.  Your process
seems okay (except for the hot aeration -- see above) as long as the
sugar you've added doesn't become too large a percentage of your
fermentables (IMO 20% is the maximum) which will give you cidery flavors.

************************
Jim writes:
>I'm trying to find the "legitimate" definition for the Irish Red Ale
>style.  I've heard that the style is becomming extinct, not unlike
>Porter and I'm interested in any information I can get.
>
>The history if Killians and the eventual sell out to Coors is interesting
>but I don't think I have the whole story for that either.

Personally, I don't think Irish Red is a real style -- I think it's a
recently created idea -- a product of the marketing director of a large
industrial mega-brewer.  Perhaps I'm wrong, but yesterday I heard a
radio ad for Killian's Irish Red Lager, in which "lager" was mentioned
prominently at least 20 times.

To create something resembling Killian's, I suggest brewing a lightly-
hopped (perhaps 15-20 IBU) pale ale but add 1 ounce of Roasted Unmalted
Barley, just for color.

Al.

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Date: Tue, 16 Feb 93 15:43:03 CST
From: gdmcconn at mspe5.b11.ingr.com (Guy McConnell)
Subject: Birmingham Brewing Tour (Part I)

    Jeff Herring and I toured Birmingham Brewing on Monday, February 15th.  I 
had not been in there since they got any of their equipment and, boy, what a 
difference - stainless steel everywhere!  A little history first:

    At the turn of the century, Birmingham was an industrial oasis in the rural
South.  The laborers who worked in its mines and factories came from
surrounding farmlands, from the industrial North, as well as every country of
Europe.  And with them, they brought their taste for beer.

    In 1889, The Birmingham Brewery was founded to help satisfy their thirsty
demands.  This modest brewery was equipped to produce 18,000 barrels of lager
beer annually.  By 1905, the brewery's annual output increased to 40,000
barrels.  The brewery closed its doors in 1908, the victim countrywide
prohibition.  Its barrels were smashed and their contents gently flowed through
the streets of Birmingham, to the horror of thirsty onlookers.  Not until last
year had beer been commercially brewed anywhere in Alabama since.  That has
changed with the opening of The Birmingham Brewing Company and its production
of Red Mountain Beers.  Their product line consists of 4 brews; a red ale (my
personal favorite), a golden ale, a gold lager, and (seasonally) a wheat beer.
The wheat will be brewed again this spring for the summer season.

    Jeff and I arrived at 2:00 and opened the sliding door around back on the
loading dock.  The wonderful aroma of fresh beer immediately wafted over and
welcomed us.  John Zanteson, Brewmaster, was expecting us and walked over to
greet us.  I asked if he minded my taking notes and pictures and he said "no"
so we quickly retrieved our cameras.

    John started out, surprisingly enough, as a homebrewer.  He developed a
desire to brew on a commercial scale and took a job in a brewery pushing a
broom.  From there he "learned every job in the place".  That is reflected in
his philosophy about aspiring brewmasters.  He says that if you are not willing
to start with the "menial" jobs in a brewery to learn the trade, you don't have
what it takes to become a commercial brewer.  John started brewing commercially
in 1988 at the Mendocino Brewpub in Hopland, California.  He then went to
Dixie brewing in Louisiana before coming to Birmingham Brewing.  I mentioned
the "Norm" character that Richard Steuven met at Mendocino (who claimed to have
been there every day since it opened) and John immediately said that he knew 
him.  He said that he was a thin, older man in a pith helmet.  He said that he
could believe that old Norm had indeed been there every day since opening.

More to come...

- -- 
Guy McConnell  gdmcconn at mspe5.b11.ingr.com
       "All I need is a pint a day"

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Date: Tue, 16 Feb 93 13:26:59 PST
From: TAN1%SysEng%DCPP at cts27.cs.pge.com
Subject: Re: wyeast 2308 and other stuff

Chuck,

I can tell you a few things about the "Brewer's Workshop" 
as I am the author of the program. It was designed to help 
craft recipes to a particular style of beer, of which there 
are 33 included in the program.  They cover most varieties 
of ales and lagers, but not specialty beers. As ingredients are 
added their contribution to specific gravity, color and bitterness 
are displayed in a style definition area, which also has target 
values for each of these parameters for the style selected. This 
way it is extremely easy to see if you are going to end up with 
a bitter or a pale ale (for example). 

There are of course many nice features associated with the program, 
but for a full run down please send for the brochure. Its on the 
house and doesn't use up valuable thread space, just write to 
TKO Software, 423 Greenwood Drive, Arroyo Grande, CA  93420.

Tom Nelson

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Date: Tue, 16 Feb 93 14:13:44 EST
From: mmlai!lucy!gildner at uunet.UU.NET (Michael Gildner)
Subject: root beer



Hello,

I have a couple of root beer type of questions.  I brought some
of that root beer extract this weekend and made two six pack of 
the stuff according to the directions.  I used corn sugar instead
of granulated sugar as a sweetener.  I was wondering how that 
might change the taste since it didn't seem as syrupy as store
brought root beer.  Also, I added dry yeast to get carbornation after
bottling.  Will this produce an alcoholic root beer?  My kids will
be bummed if Dad is the only one who gets to drink it.

Mike Gildner
gildner at mml.mmc.com


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End of HOMEBREW Digest #1079, 02/17/93