FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Rob Gardner, Digest Coordinator


Contents:
  Brewing supplies in Europe (Nir Navot)
  DFW HB Sources (   Paul Biron)
  RE: Petes Wicked Clone (Jim Busch)
  Diacetyl, etc. (Ulick Stafford)
  1.020 starters (Jack Baty)
  canned Guinness/what's a good beer? (Tony Babinec)
  brass (Russ Gelinas)
  us versus belgian carapils (Tony Babinec)
  Verification of address and receipt of first correspondence. (LeRoy S. Strohl)
  Re: Brass Fittings - Composition (ATKINSON)
  Addition to distribution list (Leland Pond)
  Brewing/Beer clubs in Atlanta (XLPSJGN)
  Re: Pub Draght Guinness (Davin Lim)
  BEATRIZ Mill (Richard Goldstein)
  Rolled oats (Jean Hunter)
  Re: Hallertau(er) (Richard Stueven)
  Re: Boiling specialty grains?  (atl)
  Re: Culturing Duvel Yeast  (atl)
  Starters, Wine, Brass (Jack Schmidling)
  bad supplier alert (James Dipalma)
  Ph measurement and meter calibration (Lee Menegoni)
  wheat beer yeast plating (Ed Kesicki)
  off-flavor puzzle ("Knight,Jonathan G")
  Mail Alias (Jim Mamay)
  CA Common recipe wanted (jay marshall)
  Extract Rates, Flavor and Color (Justin Broughton)
  Extract Rates, Flavor and Color (Justin Broughton)
  new hombrew club forming (chris campanelli)
  That was gonna be my second guess (chris campanelli)
  Brewing supplies in Europe 2 (Nir Navot)


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----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:         Thu, 25 Mar 93 13:45:22 +0200
From: Nir Navot <LCNAVOT at WEIZMANN.WEIZMANN.AC.IL>
Subject:      Brewing supplies in Europe

Are you brewing in Europe? If so, could you please tell me were do you get your
brewing supplies from?
I thought the USA would be a good source for me, but apparently the shipping
expences are just too high.
Thanks,
Nir
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Nir Navot
Department of Cell Biology
The Weizmann institute of Science                 FAX   972-8-344125
Rehovot, 76100, Israel                            Phone 972-8-343417
- -------------------------------------------------------------------------------

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Date: Thu, 25 Mar 93 09:45:40 EST
From: paulb%ted at juliet.ll.mit.edu ( Paul Biron)
Subject: DFW HB Sources

I recently moved to Grapevine Texas and need to find a supply source
in the Ft. Worth/Dallas area. Can anyone help me out?
Thanks in advance.

Paul Biron
MIT/Lincoln Laboratory
DFW Airport
214-574-4800

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Date: Thu, 25 Mar 93 9:49:58 EST
From: Jim Busch <busch at daacdev1.stx.com>
Subject: RE: Petes Wicked Clone

In the last digest, Tom posted a fine recipe for a strong brown
ale:

        8# domestic 2-row
	1# CaraMunich
	1# CaraVienne
	1# dark German
	8 oz CaraPils
	6 oz chocolate

	Mash-in 4 gallons at 57 C (135F) strike heat.  
	Falls to 52C (126F).  Protein rest 30 minutes. 
	Raise to 68C (154F), 
	Saccrification 2 hours.  
	No mashout due to brain-cloud.  You probably should  

	Sparge with 6 gallons at 75C (167F)  
	Got 7-1/2 ~ 7-3/4 gallons.  Gravity is 1046.  
	Extraction = 29.7 points/#/gallon.

	Boil 90 minutes.  
	4.4 aau Fuggles for 60 minutes, 
	4.4 aau Fuggles for 30 minutes, 
	5.2 aau Kent Goldings for 2 minutes.  

	Chill to 25C (75F).  OG = 1060.  

	Pitch Wyeast 1098
        FG = 1.018

A question: What is Dark German?? 
Comments: While I think this is a fine recipe, for a Petes Clone, 
try all Cascade for the hopping.  I would also tone down the OG
into the 1.052 - 1.055 range (as TOm indicated by suggesting less
pale malt).  One can also try the Worlds Greatest Yeast (tm):
Wyeast 1056/Narragansett/Dominion Ale.  You can also make a fine example of
this beer with a single step infusion.  In fact, the body may 
go up in the final product when a single step is used due to the 
rapid conversion of domestic pale malt between 130 and 150F.  Tom
certainly has plenty of body in his 1.060/1.018 beer, but if you
try the Worlds Greatest Yeast (tm), the FG will approach 1.010-
1.012.  By dropping both OG and FG, you will end up with roughly
the same alcohol by volume.

Good brewing,
Jim Busch

PS: Brooklyn Brown Ale is a "Petes Wicked" clone, brewed by FX MAtt,
and when fresh , quite delicous.

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Date: Thu, 25 Mar 93 10:02:57 EST
From: Ulick Stafford <ulick at bernini.helios.nd.edu>
Subject: Diacetyl, etc.

My most recent lager, that was supposed to be a vienna, but is an Helles,
seems to have quite noticable levels of diacetyl.  While, this flavor is
quite pleasent, and overall the brew has a beautiful malty palate, all
that I have read seems to be very concerned about diacetyl levels 
because they indicate a yeast gone bad.  Should I dump all yeasts from that
strain and use a fresh lager strain?  AHA guidelines seem to indicate
that low diacetyl is OK for most lagers.  My brew procedure used a 2
week primary at 50F followed by lagering for 4 weeks, the last 2 at 32F,
and was bottled with Krausen.  The Krausen worked beautifully.  I have the most\
beautiful carbonation, and it came quickly.  This is with very low sediment
levels, but I guess I was fortunate to have brewed a Helles the previous
day!

Other points.  I just read Eric Warner's Weissbier book.  A good book.
Well worth the $9.50 Classic Beer style books cost at the local store.
Some points of interest.

He is very unconcerned with oxygen introduction at bottleing because the
yeast will use it.  This contradcits other writers wh tend to be anal on this
point.  

Suggests priming with Speise (literally food) and suggests the first runnings,
from the lauter tun (with pasteurization).  Anyone tried this?

He is, unfortunately, unable to answer the 6 million dollar question - an
affordable source of the proper yeast.
__________________________________________________________________________
 'Heineken!?! ... F#$% that s at &* ...  | Ulick Stafford, Dept of Chem. Eng.  
    Pabst Blue Ribbon!'               | Notre Dame IN 46556
                                      |    ulick at bach.helios.nd.edu   


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Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1993 09:03:38 -0600 (CST)
From: jack at wubios.wustl.edu (Jack Baty)
Subject: 1.020 starters

> From: G.A.Cooper at qmw.ac.uk (Geoff Cooper)
> Subject: OG for starters - a question
> I recently mentioned the figure of 1.020 to a (knowledgeable) colleague and
> then realised that I had no hard evidence to support any claims - just HBD
> hearsay (which I have no doubt is well founded :-) )

  To take the 1.020 value somewhat past HBD hearsay:
  the directions on Wyeast packs suggest a gravity of 1.020 for stepping-up
  the yeast.
- -- 
Jack Baty  jack at wubios.WUstl.edu
Division of Biostatistics   Washington University Medical School   St. Louis
If you don't think too good then don't think too much.

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Date: Thu, 25 Mar 93 9:30:07 CST
From: tony at spss.com (Tony Babinec)
Subject: canned Guinness/what's a good beer?

Phil Hultin says that Draught Guinness did not fare too well in a
blind tasting.  Assuming that the Draught Guinness was in good
condition -- and this I don't know -- I'll speculate that what we
have here is an example of tasters scoring high the beers they
like.

To the best of my knowledge, canned Draught Guinness has OG 1.040 -
1.046, which makes it smaller in gravity than the bottled Guinness
Extra Stout, OG 1.052 or so.  Guinness, being an Irish Stout, is
quite sharp and dry, with roasted barley being the signature dark
grain.  Guinness is therefore dry and not to everyone's taste. 
And, at its gravity, Draught Guinness doesn't have a lot of body. 

In my opinion, when a beer is judged, the major questions ought to
be:

 - is it clean with no obvious faults?
 - is it brewed to style?
 - beyond the above, does it delight you?

In fact, in AHA/HBWTA events, judges use detailed point systems. 
Some score from the bottom up -- x points for malt, y points for
hop, z points for appearance -- while others develop a quick
overall assessment of the beer, and then use the scoring sheet to
aid them in pinpointing the attributes of the beer.  If the beer
has no obvious faults -- for example, obvious bacterial
contamination or a stale, oxidized flavor -- and is brewed to
style, then it is a good beer.  You may not like it, but it is a
good beer.  For example, some people don't like the clove-like
phenol flavor found in some weizens.  If, in addition, the beer
delights you, then that might nudge its score higher.  If it
doesn't delight you, that doesn't make it a bad beer.

The unfortunate reality is that some judges give far too much
weight to subjective factors and matters of taste.  Probably among
the worst things done is to wrongly label a beer as infected.  This
can happen with spiced beers or belgian beers.  Also, it is not
uncommon amongst homebrew aficianados to see the hoppiest beer or
the biggest-gravity beer be the most preferred.  Of course, this
taste and preference would not occur amongst the Lite-beer-swilling
crowd.  

An example of big beers winning is the AHA stout style.  Take a
look at past issues of Zymurgy.  Every year at AHA national, the
winner in the stout category is an imperial stout.  While the
winners were undoubtedly good beers, why hasn't a conventional
gravity dry stout ever won?  Do better brewers make big beers?  Are
novice brewers more likely to submit conventional gravity beers? 
Whatever else is going on, I submit that many homebrewers and
homebrew judges are like the musician in Spinal Tap who pointed out
that while most guitar amplifiers range from 1 - 10, his went up to
11.  In other words, we like our beers with all the dials set on
high. 

To be a better judge, one should constantly improve knowledge and
skills regarding ingredients, process, flavors and faults, styles,
national traditions, and commercial examples.  For all brewers and
beer enthusiasts, let's recognize that beer has an astounding range
of styles and flavor profiles.  It is surely much more varied in
flavor than the range of wines is, for example.  So, instead of
abolishing all styles except for BarleyWine, Imperial Stout, and
Eisbocks, let's leave some room for the session beers too!

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Date:    Thu, 25 Mar 1993 10:35:11 -0500 (EST)
From: R_GELINAS at UNHH.UNH.EDU (Russ Gelinas)
Subject: brass

   According to the Chambers Science and Technology Dictionary, brass is
"primarily copper and zinc, but may also contain other elements such as
aluminum, iron, manganese, nickel, tin, and *lead*.  There are numerous
varieties."

   So, what gives?  Are brass fixtures, ie. brass spigot, a bad choice for
beer equipment?

Russ

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Date: Thu, 25 Mar 93 9:38:09 CST
From: tony at spss.com (Tony Babinec)
Subject: us versus belgian carapils

Just a reminder:  U.S. CaraPils and Belgian Carapils are not the same
thing.

U.S. Cara-pils is dextrine malt.  As described in Jeff Frane's 
excerpts, it is hard and glassy, has minimal color, and is used
to add body.  It contributes dextrines to the beer, which won't
be fermented by beer yeast, and therefore will remain in the beer.

Belgian Cara-pils is a light caramel malt/crystal malt, with a 
color rating of 8L.  It can be used in recipes calling for "light
crystal malt."  It will contribute some color and some caramel
sweetness.

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Date: Thu, 25 Mar 93 10:46:33 EST
From: LeRoy S. Strohl <lstrohl at s850.mwc.edu>
Subject: Verification of address and receipt of first correspondence.

This is to verify that I received my first correspondence from the
Homebrew Digest. Thanks. I am going to enjoy being a part of the interst
group.

lstrohl at s850.mwc.edu


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Date: 25 Mar 1993 10:02:25 -0500 (CDT)
From: ATKINSON at vaxb.acs.unt.edu
Subject: Re: Brass Fittings - Composition

Russ Gelinas asks about the compostion of brass, and any concerns about
lead.

According to "The Condensed Chemical Dictionary, 9th ed."

Brass is a copper-zinc alloy of varying composition, typically with zinc
content ranging from 15% (highly corrosion resistant brass) to 40%
(called Muntz metal; used for hot working alloy when cold-forming
operations are unnecessary). "Some brasses also contain low percentages
of other elements, e.g. manganese, aluminum, silicon, lead and tin)." 
The Dictionary indicates that the only hazard of brass is the it is
"flammable in powder or finely divided form".

The Dictionary does indicate that additional information can be obtained
from the Copper and Brass Fabricators Council, 225 Park Avenue, New
York (how's that for an address!).

It turns out that children are much more susceptible to lead poisoning than
adults. Children may begin to experience symptoms when the level of lead
in their blood reaches 40 micrograms per 100 grams of whole blood; the
threshold for adults is about 60% to 70% higher.  EPA's drinking water
standard is 0.05 milligrams per liter.  This level was derived assuming
that one drinking 4 liters of water per day over an average lifetime with
levels of lead lower than the standard will prevent blood level
concentrations from reaching levels where symptoms will occur.

We are also exposed to lead in trace amounts in the food that we eat; it
is naturally occurring in soil; it is in many pesticides, and it is attached to
airborne particles (this is why EPA has banned leaded gasoline).  One
estimate is that we ingest approximately 130 milligrams of lead each day
in our food and drink (ReVelle and ReVelle, 1984 - "The Environment:
Issues and Choices for Society").

IMHO, the amount of lead that may be leached out of the few brass
fittings the we may use in our brewing gadgets, even under the lower pH
levels that brewing creates, would add only a very small increase in the
lead we are exposed to.  In addition, for every hour we spend brewing,
we are reducing the risks of walking across the street and getting hit by
a car!

So, I think you can add as many brass fittings as you want to your system
(stainless steel would be better, but its about 10 times more expensive),
not worry, relax, and you know....

Sam Atkinson
Brew Long and Prosper

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Date: Thu, 25 Mar 93 8:07:17 PST
From: Leland Pond <lpond at hpcugsya.cup.hp.com>
Subject: Addition to distribution list

Please add me to the distribution list for homebrew.

Thanks.

- --
Regards,
      Lee Pond  MS 44L3            email: lpond at cup.hp.com
      GSY TI Operation             HP DESK: Leland Pond  / HPG200/16
      19111 Pruneridge Ave.        Phone: (408 or 1) 447-0991
      Cupertino, CA. 95014-9807

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Date:    Thu, 25 Mar 93 10:15 CST
From: XLPSJGN%LUCCPUA.BITNET at UICVM.UIC.EDU
Subject: Brewing/Beer clubs in Atlanta

Dear Brewers,

My brother in Atlanta is interested in homebrewing/beer clubs in the
Atlanta area.  He's just started brewing and is looking for a network
to get involved in for help, advise and meeting fellow brewers.  How-
ever, I think because of the laws against brewing beer at home, these
societies might be hard to find?

Could anyone who knows about a club or network in the Atlanta area
please E-mail me directly (or over this forum) and I'll pass the
info onto my brother.

Cheers,
John

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Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1993 08:50:27 -0700 (MST)
From: limd at plasma.arraytech.com (Davin Lim)
Subject: Re: Pub Draght Guinness

Gerald Winters writes:

>from Phil Hultin...

>>I must say that I am surprised at all the enthusiasm for canned Guinness.
>>When I tried it ... I was totally unimpressed.

>I would like to second Phil Hultin's comments.  One of the common
>complaints about BudMichMiller is the rather thin palate or general
>lack of flavor.  Well certainly canned Guinness does a bit better but,
>hey, it tastes watery to me.  I'll stick with the bottled version.

The bottled Guinness Extra Stout commonly available here in the US is
considered by many to be a world class beer (including myself,) but 
this is a completely different product from Draught Guinness (canned or
otherwise.)  It's sort of an apples to oranges kind of thing.  The
Guinness Extra Stout is a higher OG product, with a correspondingly
higher hopping rate.  The draught versions(s) are intended to be much
lighter (to use a bad term) and I think more "quaffable".  Whereas I
don't have any problem drinking multiple pints of Draght Guinness, 
usually from a real tap at one of several Boulder pubs, I know I would
have great difficulty consuming more than a couple of bottles of
the Extra Stout in a single sitting. 

Now, if I could only finagle a trip to Dublin to try the Real Thing...
 
Just another point of view...

- -- 
 ........................................................................
 * Davin Lim 			 * limd at arraytech.com
 * Array Technology Corporation	 * -- OR you can try ..
 * Boulder, Colorado.            *     raid5!limd at devnull.mpd.tandem.com
 ........................................................................

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Date: Thu, 25 Mar 93 08:44:46 PST
From: Richard.Goldstein at EBay.Sun.COM (Richard Goldstein)
Subject: BEATRIZ Mill

A friend just gave me a mill. The brand name appears to be BEATRIZ, and
he said it was from the UK. I've never looked at a Corona mill up
close, but it appears to be closer to a Corona than a Maltmill.

Does anybody have experience with this particular brand, and do you
have any advice or tips on its use?

Thanks.

Rich Goldstein

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Date:         Thu, 25 Mar 93 12:22:03 EST
From: Jean Hunter <MS3Y at CORNELLA.cit.cornell.edu>
Subject:      Rolled oats

    In response to the post about the headless beer made with rolled oats,
my Quaker Oats box claims 2 g fat per 1-oz serving (dry) of oats.  Yes, this
is without adding the milk.
    If you added a pound of rolled oats to your mash, you would be adding
the equivalent of 32 g, just over an ounce, of lipids.  Given that there must
be some lipids in barley, and that some folks add baking chocolate (50 to
70% fat) to their specialty brews without complaining of head retention
problems, could roughly an ounce of oat lipids be responsible for the
beheading of a stout?
    Sometimes an oil film on the serving glass can mess up a beer head.
Check (with) your dishwasher too.
    Cheers -- Jean                              (Sigbars waste bandwidth)

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Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1993 09:58:32 -0800
From: Richard Stueven <gak at wrs.com>
Subject: Re: Hallertau(er)

Al writes:

>Actually, Hallertauer is more correct.  The "er" suffix in German generally
>means "of" or "from" therefore, "Hallertauer" are hops with direct lineage
>to the type of hop that was grown in the Hallertau area.  "Hallertau" is
>kind of correct, but bad grammar.  Consider "Boston Lager" versus
>"Bostonian Lager."

Can the people of Hallertau file suit in American courts?

I'd like to clear this up before I brew my "Hallertau Altbier".

thx
gak

Richard Stueven, Castro Valley CA

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Date: Thu, 25 Mar 93 10:03:44 -0800
From: atl at kpc.com
Subject: Re: Boiling specialty grains? 


>  I was wondering if anyone holds an intelligent opinion about boiling specialty
>  grains like chocolate malt as opposed to just steeping them in 165-170 degree
>  water which will be added to the boiled wort made from malt extract.  Since I
>  have not as yet tried all-grain brewing I still boil in a 4 gallon pot, so I
>  boil half my water first, store it in the carboy then add the wort after a
>  subsequent boil.  On my last batch I decided to steep the specialty grains
>  after finishing the initial boil, then strained them out of the water and
>  added boiled wort.  Is there a downside to this procedure?  That batch,
>  a porter tasted pretty good, a reasonable extract facsimilie of Anchor Porter-
>  yumm, but the vast experiences of the HBD might convince me of the error of my
>  wheys.

After about 5 years of boiling specialty grains, and ending up with beer that tasted
much better after a year in the bottle, I stopped boiling my grains and voila! beer
that tasted good out of the secondary.  As I understand it, higher temperatures will
leach tannins out of the husks of the grain.  These tannins will add an astringent
taste to you finished product.  The yeast in each bottle will *eventually* reabsorb
the tannins, but it is better to avoid them from the start.

The only doubt I have with your described method is that you don't boil the resulting
liquid from the steeping of the grains.  Once you have removed the husk material, it
is safe to boil the resulting liquid, and may even be beneficial.  A boil could kill
off residual nasties, although I don't know if anything could live in 170F water for
an extended period of time.  Boiling might also alter the sugars in the solution.

On the bottom line, if it tastes good, you *must* have done the right thing.

Andrew Lynch, Kubota Pacific Computer, Santa Clara, Ca. atl at kpc.com

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Date: Thu, 25 Mar 93 10:20:19 -0800
From: atl at kpc.com
Subject: Re: Culturing Duvel Yeast 


>  I'm planning to culture the yeast from a bottle of Duvel and I have a few
>  questions:

Where are you located?  Fermentation Frenzy in Los Altos, Ca. has slants of Duvel
yeast that I have used to attempt Duvel clones. I'm pretty sure that these cultures
would be better to use than the yeast in some poor abused bottle that's been on the
shelf forever. I don't know the technical profile, but it smells and has aftertaste
like Duvel.  I have done one extract and one all grain attempt at Duvel.  The all
grain came much closer, as I could control the percentage fermentable vs. percentage
unfermentable sugars in the wort.  Normal (tm) extract will have a ratio balanced
towards normal beer, and Duvel is not normal.  It is quite difficult to get the high
alcohol content without excessive body and residual sweetness.  My all grain batch
included 18lbs of grain and 3 lbs of honey for a 5 gallon batch.  I mashed for several
hours at 148F to try to get maximum fermentable sugars.  The Duvel yeast fermented it
from about ~1.090 to ~1.025 in just over one day!  Another week brought it down to
about 1.015.  Truely impressive.  It ended up with the nice blond color and rocky head
of Duvel, but was still a little too sweet. Duvel in Belgium hasd 9.5% alcohol (not
sure if by weight or volume) and the US version has 5.2%. 

  If there is interest, I will post the recipe, but I don't want people to think I
really got it just right.

Andrew Lynch, Kubota Pacific Computer, Santa Clara, Ca. atl at kpc.com


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Date: Thu, 25 Mar 93 13:05 CST
From: arf at genesis.mcs.com (Jack Schmidling)
Subject: Starters, Wine, Brass

 
 >Jack, how careful are you about what kind of beer you save for starters?
 
 Totally reckless.  I literally start the next with the last.  I really think 
 that a pint out of 7 gallons is in the noise.
 
 >From: Robert Schultz <SCHULTZ at admin1.usask.ca>
 
 > As for Jack Schmidling's comment about adding sugar until the yeast dies
 may not be a good idea... this is how high alcohol content ports are made....by
 adding small increments of sugar you are in effect conditioning the yeast
 (actually I think you kill off the week cells and continue the ferment with some
 of the stronger -- mutants?).  The concentration of alcohol changes the taste
 (or how one perceives the taste) of the final product.
 
 Can't argue with the facts but if one uses a low tolerence yeast, you can 
 minimize the problem.
 
 >From: R_GELINAS at UNHH.UNH.EDU (Russ Gelinas)
 
 >  First, I read in a health newsletter than *brass* fittings, ie. a brass
 spigot, especially when new, can leach lead into water.  What is brass?
 Copper and ???.
 
 Sounds like a case of the media over-reacting to something they know nothing 
 about.
 
 Brass is an alloy of copper and zinc.  The amount of either that can leach 
 into beer is probably not measureable and both, in small doses are necessary 
 to human health.
 
 
 js
 

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Date: Thu, 25 Mar 93 14:47:46 EST
From: dipalma at banshee.sw.stratus.com (James Dipalma)
Subject: bad supplier alert


Hi All,

   Just curious, anyone else having problems getting orders filled correctly
by Northeast Brewers Supply in RI?
   I have been (or was) a customer of thiers for about one year.  Over the
first few months that I did business with them, several orders were shipped
either incomplete or with the wrong items.  On most of those occasions, the
problem was that they did not have the item in stock and had it on backorder.
The irritating thing was that they would not tell me this when I placed the
order, even though the information was on their computer.  I would not
discover that the order was incomplete until I received it, one or two days
before brewday.  Each time this occurred, it put me in the position of
scrambling around at the last minute trying to second source the items from
other vendors.
   After several such incidents, I called and spoke to the owner, a Mr.
Kerry Brown.  He told me they had just put in a new computer system and hired
a lot of new help, and to please bear with them.  Being the understanding,
easy-going fellow that I am, I was satisfied with that explanation.
   Things got a little better for a while, as only the occasional order was
screwed up.  Two weeks ago, I ordered one pound of Saaz pellets, and 1/4 pound
of several other types of hop.  After waiting eight days, I called to find out
what had happened to my order.  After being left on hold for 15 minutes, the
person at the store said he was alone, the phones were ringing and the place
was full of customers, so he did not have time to look for the shipping log.
He could'nt say whether or not the order had been shipped.  He did locate my
order, but it was totally wrong, they had it as 1 *pound* of each hop.
   The next day, as a result of my complaining, I received a phone call from
Mr. Brown, ostensibly because he "was interested in my feedback as a
customer".  I explained the problem with the hop order, and amazingly, he went
into the same speil, new computers, new help, blah blah blah.  I reminded him
that we had held exactly the same conversation 8 months ago.  He then tried
a new tack, that "it's hard for any computer to track $10K a day in
inventory".  Gee, it's funny how in this age of online transaction processing,
banks can transfer millions of dollars a day across vast distances with no
problem, but NE Brewer's computers can't track a few ounces of hops in the
backroom.  Then it was "banks spend a lot more money for their computers".
This is surely earth shattering news to those who use PC driven databases in
thier businesses.  It became evident that he was interested in neither my
feedback or in retaining me as a customer, so the conversation terminated.
   In all fairness, NE Brewers does offer very low prices.  However, in my
opinion, this is made possible because they hire the cheapest, least
qualified help they can find, and then understaff, as evidenced by the lone
hapless clerk trying to wait on customers and answer the phone concurrently.
   The bottom line is, you *can* get good prices from NE Brewer, but you had
better have a second source lined up, you may very well need it.
   
   
                                     Jim

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Date: Thu, 25 Mar 93 14:30:07 EST
From: Lee Menegoni <necis!lmenegon at transfer.stratus.com>
Subject: Ph measurement and meter calibration

I have a couple questions about the use and calibration of a Ph meter.
If a meter's intended use range is 32-122F what is the effect of takiing
a reading at 150-160F?  how much percentage or Ph points will the reading
be off?  Does the Ph of the calibration fluids change with temp?
I measuring the mash and wort Ph should I take a sample and cool it to
100F  meAsure it and apply a temp adjustment?  When mash and wort Ph is
mentioned in various texts is this the Ph at mash / wort temp or is it
at some other temp??
- -- 

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Date: Thu, 25 Mar 93 12:08:58 -0800
From: ek at chem.UCSD.EDU (Ed Kesicki)
Subject: wheat beer yeast plating



This is addressed to anyone who has plated out Wyeast Wheat Beer Yeast:

We have done this and were wondering how the two different colonies looked.
We seem to have two types, one thicker and whiter, the other more 
translucent and thinner.  But only one of our plates displays this,
the other only has colonies of the first type.

Could someone who has done this please do me the favor of letting me
know how your colonies looked and what characteristics each had when
they were used to ferment beer.

Thanks,

Ed Kesicki
ek at chem.ucsd.edu



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Date: Thu, 25 Mar 93 15:05:40 cdt
From: "Knight,Jonathan G" <KNIGHTJ at AC.GRIN.EDU>
Subject: off-flavor puzzle


Here's one for all you beer - sleuths.

I have been re-using yeast by saving the slurry from the primary and washing 
it using the sterile-water method.  Recently, I decided to pitch a new batch 
directly onto the yeast cake in the SECONDARY of a previous batch.  Both of 
these batches have developed a similar off-flavor.  

I would described this flavor possibly as either "wet cardboard" or "cooked 
corn" - but since I can't decide which, perhaps it is neither and I'm just 
groping for terms to describe it from stuff I've read.  And incidentally, I 
don't remember where I read them or what is supposed to cause these 
particular flavors.  Quite a few batches ago I had one that turned out 
"cidery," and there was absolutely no doubt about how to describe that.  The 
cideriness subsided after a few weeks in the bottle and the beer was not 
great, but drinkable.

But I digress.  The interesting thing is that a third batch of beer made 
from the same yeast, washed from primary slurry, shows no sign of that 
flavor defect.  The three recipes are completely different except for the 
yeast.  Personally, I suspect that my problem came from reusing yeast from 
the secondary that had been DRY-HOPPED.

Here's the scenario:  Batch one, California Common using Wyeast 
"California," from package built up in DME starter.  Batch two, a porter 
(?) or at anyrate a dark steam beer, made with California yeast saved from 
prinary of batch one.  Bathc three, a cream ale (or cream steam in this 
case I suppose) made with California yeast from secondary of batch one 
(which had been dry-hopped).  Batch one and batch three have identical 
flavor defects.  Batch two is fine.

And here are my questions: (1) Could the flavor defect in batch one be due 
to leaving the hops (pellets) in the secondary too long?  I thought moving 
the beer off the slurry in the primary would take avoid the risk  of 
developing off-flavors in case of extended stay in the fermenter, but 
perhaps the dry-hopping has its own risk in this regard.  (2) Should I 
suspect infection?  The hops I used for dry-hopping smell fine in their 
package, although I doubt I could pick up anything by nose that way.  
Perhaps the infection was introduced when transferring batch one to 
secondary, and from there to batch three.  (3) What are the chances of bottle 
conditioning taking care of this?

I should add that the flavor problem is not overwhelming - it sticks out 
like a sore thumb to me, but my wife guzzles happily and doesn't know what  
I'm talking about.

Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated!

Jonathan Knight
Grinnell, Iowa

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Date: Thu, 25 Mar 93 15:55:34 MST
From: jbmamay at beergod.dazixco.ingr.com (Jim Mamay)
Subject: Mail Alias

Hello,

Please add me to your journal mailings.

Thanks

- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jim Mamay : Senior Systems Engineer
Dept.     : Systems & Tools
Phone     : 303-581-2384
Fax	  : 303-581 9972
Mail Path : jbmamay at dazixco.ingr.com
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------

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Date: Thu, 25 Mar 93 17:35:45 CST
From: jay marshall <marshall at sweetpea.jsc.nasa.gov>
Subject: CA Common recipe wanted

Does anyone out there have a recipe for a good beer in the California
Common (aka Steam(tm)) style?  Please feel free to email or to post.  I
would also appreciate comments regarding the recipe's comparison to 
Anchor Steam.

thanks,

Jay
marshall at sweetpea.jsc.nasa.gov


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Date: Thu, 25 Mar 93 19:22:53 -0800
From: jwsb at netcom.com (Justin Broughton)
Subject: Extract Rates, Flavor and Color


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Date: Thu, 25 Mar 93 19:25:17 PST
From: jwsb at netcom.com (Justin Broughton)
Subject: Extract Rates, Flavor and Color


I am curious about a subject I have not seen mentioned in any of the books
I have read. This is, what is the relationship between extract rate, flavor
and color. What happens if I am using a recipe which has an assumed stellar
extract rate, and I know my equipment can only get a percentage of it. If
I up the grain amount, will I get a more flavorful/colorful brew. 

Also vice-versa if I am using a recipe which assumes very low extract rates
will my brew turn out tasteless and colorless if I tone it down to meet
my extract rates?

Justin
- -- 

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Date: Thu, 25 Mar 93 21:45 CST
From: akcs.chrisc at vpnet.chi.il.us (chris campanelli)
Subject: new hombrew club forming

 
There's a new homebrewing club forming in the western suburbs of
Chicago in Dupage County.  The first meeting is scheduled for
Friday, April 30th.  For more info contact:
 
 
Todd Williams      todd at gold.rtsg.mot.com        (708) 971-8692
   -or-
Chris Campanelli   akcs.chrisc at vpnet.chi.il.us   (708) 833-9059
 

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Date: Thu, 25 Mar 93 22:59 CST
From: akcs.chrisc at vpnet.chi.il.us (chris campanelli)
Subject: That was gonna be my second guess

The other day I was subjected to a blind tasting at a friends.
 
"Try this", he said, "It has some flavors that I can't quite
place".
 
"What style is it?", I asked.
 
"It has some problems but the style should be pretty evident." he
said.
 
So I put on a judge's air and proceeded to dissect the beverage
according to the latest AHA guidelines.
 
Appearance: Very pale, Miller Lite-ish in color.  Way over-
carbonated.  No head retention.
 
Nose: Perfumy.  Fruity, apple-like.  No malt nose.  No hop nose.
 
Flavor: Starts out fruity.  Finishes dry with some tartness. No
body, very thin.  Gassy.
 
After surreptitious evaluation, I decided that it must have been
a very bad mead/cyser or an OK sparkling cider.  But which? 
Depending on what I said I could have bruised an ego or given
tribute unto Caesar.  I loathe those situations.  It required
tact.  Ann Landers, where are you when I need you.
 
Summoning all of my self-taught guile, I responded: "Well, it
certainly is interesting."
 
"You don't like it?" he asked.
 
"Um, no, it's not that I don't like it, it's just that it could
fall into a number of different categories and I'm having a
little trouble deciding which.  On one hand it tastes like a very
good cider but on the other hand it tastes like a mead or cyser
that needs a little more aging." I said as I mentally patted
myself on the back.
 
"Well, truth be told", he said, "it's a French champagne. 
Perrier-Jouet to be exact, vintage 1983."
 
(silence)
 
While trying not to blush too brightly I confidently responded,
"I knew that".
 
 
chris campanelli

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Date:         Fri, 26 Mar 93 09:29:57 +0200
From: Nir Navot <LCNAVOT at WEIZMANN.WEIZMANN.AC.IL>
Subject:      Brewing supplies in Europe 2

Do you have by chance the exact address, Tel. and FAX numbers (or just one of
these) for Munton & Fison (England) and DeWolf-Cosyns Maltings (Belgium).
Thanks, Nir.
_______________________________________________________________________________
Nir Navot <lcnavot at weizmann.weizmann.ac.il>
_______________________________________________________________________________

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End of HOMEBREW Digest #1106, 03/26/93