FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Rob Gardner, Digest Coordinator


Contents:
  Immersion chiller architecture (Richard Childers)
  Durden Park Beer Circle (WESTEMEIER)
  Gravity to high ... (Tito Lopez)
  Skimming during fermentation (Lou Casagrande)
  BREAD YEAST (Jack Schmidling)
  Where do I begin? (julie)
  Pet peeve--Belgian beer "styles" (Phillip Seitz)
  a few observations (Russ Gelinas)
  Immersion chillers (Ed Hitchcock)
  Rocks in Belgian Malts (Chris Cook)
  First and Second Runnings (Chris Cook)
  1993 Mazer Cup Mead Competi ("Daniel F McConnell")
  Old Time Root Beer Request (John Roth)
  getting rid of DMS (Ed Hitchcock)
  dry hopping - HELP! (Peter Maxwell)
  clarity (Breiss vs GW) (jay marshall)
  Dry Hopping?/bar bottles/protein rest/Chimay Duh! (korz)
  RE: 2112 (James Dipalma)
  Bulk malt (/O=vmspfhou/S=dblewis/DD.SITE=JSCPROFS/)
  brewing videos? (Gary Rich)
  ""Stretching" liquid yeasts (Jay Cadieux)
  Re: Hops Primer (Tim P McNerney)
  Root Beer (davidr)
  "objective" beer tasting (mARK wITTEMAN)
  Cry for Help, Part II (mARK wITTEMAN)


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----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sat, 17 Apr 93 10:09:52 -0700
From: pascal at netcom.com (Richard Childers)
Subject: Immersion chiller architecture


"Date: Wed, 14 Apr 93 11:47:29 EDT
 From: eisen at kopf.HQ.Ileaf.COM (Carl West)
 Subject: Re: Immersion chiller


"Stirring helps. On both sides of the copper."

Agreed, I don't think this is being addressed at all.

Despite the desire not to aereate the wort, if the wort is not moved around,
somehow, it will develop relatively weak convection currents that will act
to move the wort around very little. As a consequence, an insulating wall of
wort of intermediate temperature will build up around the coil, much as an
intermediate layer of water, in a foam-layered SCUBA suit, warms up to body
temperature and then acts as an insulating layer between one's body and the
colder outer ocean.

This can be corrected by building a immersion chiller strong enough to be
used as a slow stirring mechanism, also. Unfortunately, _this_ leads to
thicker walls on the copper tubing ... which translates into less efficient
transfer of heat from hot wort to cold water. Perhaps a 'skeleton' of a
stronger wire could be wrapped, helix-style, around the softer and thinner
copper tubing, to hold it and protect it from being bent by impact against
the sides of the container.


"I believe the whole problem is really quite simple, it's alot like putting 
 ice into a glass of soda, more ice cools it faster."

On that thread, has anyone considered a parallel chiller architecture ?

It would increase the available surface area available to the coldest water,
as it enters the chiller and contacts the hottest wort ( which would, I'm
speculating, be at the top, assuming no heat is entering the system ), and,
all other things being equal, I speculate that there would be a fairly
straightforward linear relationship between the speed wort chilled at and
the number of fixed-length, unconstricted-surface-area chiller segments in
operation ... just as there is between the number of ice cubes one drops in
a glass of water, and the speed at which it cools ( again, assuming that
the actual surfaces through which the heat is transferred remain free of
obstructions ).

I must say, this is a fascinating little thread and I'm waiting for someone
to integrate it all and generate a matrix of optimal architectures out of
the cross-indexing of length, diameter, wall thickness, architecture, and
flow rate. ( For purposes of simplification it seems best to assume that the
wort will start out at just below boiling, worst case, and the water at just
above freezing, say, 35-40 F, worst case. ) While there may be no absolutely
'best' solution or architecture, there absolutely _is_ a set of, shall we
say, optimal solution to this particular problem in physics, just as there
is a fairly finite set of possible container geometries within which the
chiller is immersed ...


- -- richard

The silliest thing I ever read,		richard childers, pascal at netcom.com
Was someone saying "God is dead."
The simple use of The Word
Negates the second, and the third.	( Duke Ellington, _Sacred Concert_ )

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Date: 18 Apr 1993 20:54:42 -0400 (EDT)
From: WESTEMEIER at delphi.com
Subject: Durden Park Beer Circle

Please excuse the bandwidth, but I will be in London later this week,
and I understand the Durden Park Beer Circle meets on the 22nd.
If visitors are welcome, I would greatly appreciate e-mail from anyone
who can tell me exactly where and when -- I would love to attend.
Thanks,
Ed Westemeier, Cincinnati, Ohio, USA  <<westemeier at delphi.com>>

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Date: Sun, 18 Apr 93 22:20:23 PDT
From: tlopez at alt.cam1.unisys.com (Tito Lopez)
Subject: Gravity to high ...


I'm a first time brewer and just maybe I'm a bit too impatient.  I bought 
the Stout kit (Guinnes Extra Stout) and followed the direction as closely
as possible.  I let it ferment 5 days in the primary fermenter between 58 to
64 degrees.  I transfered it to the secondary fermenter and it's been there
for 9 days.  The gravity on this day was 1018 (measurement adjusted to 
reflect temp above 60 degrees), 6 above the F.G.  According
to the kit it would take 7 to 9 days (after it's been transfer to the 
secondary fermenter) to bottle.  What's wrong? Give it more time?

IMF (Tito Lopez)

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Date: Mon, 19 Apr 93 08:34:55 EDT
From: casagran at gdstech.grumman.com (Lou Casagrande)
Subject: Skimming during fermentation

Fellow Brewmeisters,
I am still a relatively unsophistocated brewer, in that I am still
using a single-stage fermentation with the 6-gallon plastic fermenter.
I had heard about skimming, but I was always a little reticent to open
my brew during fermentation for fear of contaminating it. My question,
then, is: What is the proper method for skimming to minimize the
chance of contamination or other "badness"? By the way, a quick answer
to this question will be important, as I just put a batch of stout
together last night.

Thanks,
Lou Casagrande
casagran at gdsnet.grumman.com

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Date: Mon, 19 Apr 93 07:55 CDT
From: arf at genesis.mcs.com (Jack Schmidling)
Subject: BREAD YEAST

 
 One of the first "Momilies" I addressed shortly after starting to read the 
 Digest was the seemingly hidebound belief that bread yeast makes lousy beer.  
 This was shortly before I became a born-again yeast culturer.
 
 I decided to check out the bread yeast momily but knowing what I had learned 
 about culturing, it seemed only reasonable that the test should be done on a 
 pure cultured bread yeast.  I suspected the real problem with bread yeast was 
 the same as in all dry yeast, i.e. contaminants other than the culture yeast.
 
 I pure cultured some Fleishman's bread yeast on petri dishes and then to 
 slants.  The real problem became one of committing a batch of beer, with all 
 the expense and time that entails to the experiment.  So the slants sat in 
 the fridge for months.
 
 Well, I finally got around to doing it.  On March 12, I brewed up a 7 gal 
 batch, using "only the finest ingredients".  I even got a yield of 33 on this 
 one and I pitched the bread yeast.
 
 The primary at 55F was nominal and I pumped it to secondary a week later and 
 noted a decided clove taste.  As of Apr 16, it was still fermenting 
 moderately with not a sign of clearing.
 
 I decided I had tied up the equipment long enough to learn what I wanted to 
 learn and kegged 5 gallons of it.  I force carbnated this and took it to a 
 CBS meeting to share this great science with the rest of humanity.
 
 With the notable exception of one nameless individual who thought it was 
 "kinda nice", there will not likely be a sudden conversion to bread yeast at 
 CBS.  When I later made the rounds with a rather good lager, people sort of 
 turned around and made like they didn't see me.  I had to do a real sell job 
 to get them to try this one.
 
 The clove taste was, in my opinion, overpowering and rendered the beer more 
 or less undrinkable.  What is interesting is that I have made this very same 
 beer before using Red Star beer yeast, even to the never-ending fermentation.  
 My suspicion is that Red Star beer yeast is either severly contaminated with 
 their bread yeast or IS their bread yeast.
 
                            .............
 
 I also finally got around to trying a Wyeast primarily because Tim Norris 
 practically forced it on me.  It was the 2206 Bavarian and I pure cultured 
 before using it. I brewed a batch of Munich style lager and it made a decent 
 beer but can really say not much else about it.  It was pretty nominal as far 
 as my taster is concerned.
 
 However, it is worth nothing that the two petri dishes have been sitting on 
 my lab table for 6 weeks now and there still is not the slighted sign of 
 contamination.  I innoculated two plates directly from the package just by 
 dipping the innoculating needle into the liquid.  I dipped twice, once for 
 each plate, to increase the possiblity of picking up a contaminant.  One was 
 opened once to innoculate slants and the other has never been opened. This 
 speaks well both for the yeast and my procedure.    
 
 js

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Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1993 09:00:16 -0400 (EDT)
From: julie <jaj406 at kepler.unh.edu>
Subject: Where do I begin?



	I would like to make my own homebrew, but I don't know where
to start.  Could someone give me advice on how to start and what I 
need to begin.  I have some ideas, but not sure if I'm on the right track.
	You can e-mail me at   jaj406 at kepler.unh.edu
	Thanks.....

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Date: Mon, 19 Apr 93 13:37 GMT
From: Phillip Seitz <0004531571 at mcimail.com>
Subject: Pet peeve--Belgian beer "styles"

Al Korzonas recently took a jab at the AHA's beer style classification
system, with particular reference to their Belgian beer categories.  Way
to go, Al!  Usually I preface this sort of thing by saying "Don't get me
started", but since it's too late already...

Where does the AHA get off classifying these beers as doubles and triples?
It seems to me that this classification is based on the beers of Westmalle,
but there are lots of examples that don't conform.  Orval is obvious.
Rochfort offers its beers in 6, 8, and 10 degrees, as to many "abbey"
brewers.  If the 6 is a double and the 10 is a triple, what's the 8--
2.5?  Where does Chimay's Cinq Cents (a partial-wheat beer if I'm not
mistaken) fall into this?  Frankly I think it's rediculous to have style
perameters when the entire population of breweries in this style only
equals five.

Sad to say, I think that Michael Jackson is responsible for much of the
incongruity we see in the style listings, as these closely mirror his own
scheme in the World Guide to Beer.  Personally I've never heard a Belgian
refer to Liefman's as a Flanders Brown, for example.  I think Pierre
Rajotte was a lot closer to the mark when he stuck to commonly accepted
terminology and the Belgian classification system based on O.G.

Sorry, I'll get off the soapbox.  However, I must say it irritates me to 
submit beers to contests where judges who may have only had a few beers of
any given type in their lives will be ranking my beer based on these
misconceived numbers.

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Date:    Mon, 19 Apr 1993 10:23:04 -0400 (EDT)
From: R_GELINAS at UNHH.UNH.EDU (Russ Gelinas)
Subject: a few observations

  First, thanks to whoever started this conversation about rocks in malt.
Never heard of such a thing, until this Sat. when the Corona went "crunch"
on one. Nothing broke, just don't start talking about severe infection 
problems, ok?
   Anyway, the grain (minus the rock) seemed quite soft when I was grinding 
it, which I attribute to it being stored in a not-exactly-dry garage for
the last few months.  But it crushed beautifully, in fact I had to admire
how perfect the crushed grains looked.  It mashed/converted just fine, and, 
it sparged sparkling clear immediately.  I mean the first few *drops* were
clear and it stayed that way, with an unrestricted flow.  This is with the
Gott cooler type of lauter tun.  My guess is that the moisture in the grains 
allowed the Corona to sort of squeeze the shells open rather than grind them 
to dust; there was much less flour than usual.
   Unfortunately, damp grains are not usually a good idea (they tend to spoil),
so don't go soaking your grains to get a great sparge.  I just happened to
be lucky.

   Again I chopped the whole hops in a coffee blender, and I'm getting
convinced this is a very good idea.  Besides the probable better utilization,
they helped form a solid trub bed in the brewpot, and filtered so well I
was able to rack almost all of the liquid from the pot.  There may be a
connection with the World's Greatest Sparge (tm) here also.
   I plan to dryhop one of the batches with ground whole hops in a mesh bag;
I'll report back anything interesting.

Russ

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Date: 19 Apr 1993 11:47:12 -0300
From: Ed Hitchcock <ECH at ac.dal.ca>
Subject: Immersion chillers

	I finally got around to making my immersion chiller over the 
weekend.  I used 25' of 1/4" tubing in a plani-spiral (like an electric     
stove burner).  The input and outputs hook over the side of the pot, and 
the final (outer) coil cuts straight across the bottom of the coil 
(perpindicular to the input), and down to the bottom of the pot, across and 
back up to the coil before joining the input end over the edge of the pot.  
Thus it supports itself about 2" or so below the surface of the wort.  From 
test runs (I haven't tried on an actual beer yet) I can recommend that 
anyone wishing to use 1/4" tubing to save money (like I did) either go for 
the 3/8", or make sure your connections are really secure.  1/4" tubing has 
a very high resistance to flow.  Remember, resistance to flow is the 4th 
power of the diameter of the tubing (ie reduce diameter to half, resistance 
goes up 16 fold).  
	In my case I (perhaps stupidly) bought 1/4" tubing because it was 
$7 cheaper than the 3/8", and I already had most of the connectors, whereas 
I would have had to dish out an additional $7-8 on connectors for 3/8" 
tubing.  I first connected it with rubber lab hose to the sink, and the 
hose swelled up like a ballon.  
	Anyway, any suggestions on whether to cool from outside in or 
inside out?
	ed



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Date:    Mon, 19 Apr 1993 15:25:12 GMT
From: "UARS::COOK" at CDHF1.GSFC.NASA.GOV (Chris Cook)
Subject: Rocks in Belgian Malts

On the subject of rocks in the malt, I've had small rocks jam my MaltMill
in two out of the last 8 or so batches.  In both cases I had to stop, take
the grains out of the hopper and actually unscrew the hopper to get the
rock out of the mill.  Worse, the rocks left scars on the rollers in both
cases, smearing an arc of those careful grooves flat.  Jack was right,
though, when he said that, with the o-ring, the second roller would just
slip, saving the mill from any serious damage.

I've been using the Belgian malts almost exclusively, so I don't have any
idea whether this problem is widespread or just with these malts.

Mind you, one thing that aggravates my problem is my ongoing affair with
high-gravity beers.  It's been a problem ever since I started all-grain
brewing: if it's less than 10 pounds of grain, I don't make it.

It's all Jack's fault: his mill made things too easy.

Chris Cook
cook at cdhf1.gsfc.nasa.gov

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Date:    Mon, 19 Apr 1993 15:25:39 GMT
From: "UARS::COOK" at CDHF1.GSFC.NASA.GOV (Chris Cook)
Subject: First and Second Runnings

Speaking of high-gravity beers, he said, I've been going to _really_ big
beers recently, with a grain bill from 25 to 30 or more pounds of grain for
5 gallon batches.  The first runnings are the barley wine, double bock,
Russian Imperial stout or whatever, and the second runnings are enough
(with a pound of DME) to easily make an ordinary beer.

Easy was the surprising keyword, too.  I'm all set up for the first beer
anyway: I've got the pots dirty, the starter's foaming away, the sterilizer
stuff mixed up, the hoses soaking and small parts waiting, the immersion
wort-chiller all hooked up, everything.  It becomes kind of an assembly
line affair.

You can figure the procedure.  After getting enough wort for the first
beer, continue the sparge for the second.  Chill the first batch while
finishing up the boil on second.  When the first batch is cool, pitch using
2/3 of the starter (I use more starter for this batch because of its
gravity).  Finish any last-minute hopping on the second wort, take it off
the stove and move the wort-chiller (immersion) from the first pot into the
second.  After a little sloshing and swirling (if you like that kind of
thing) start the first beer syphoning.  The syphon usually finishes before
the second batch is cool; I just leave the hoses in place until I'm ready.
When the second wort's cool, I pitch the last of the starter in that wort,
swirl again and move the syphon hose to the second wort.

I'm using the same equipment, I'm just using it twice instead of once.  I
plan the batches using the same yeast, so there's only on starter.  I've
noticed that the second beer is quite a bit lighter than the first, and you
can always make more changes by adding more malts to the lauter-tun.  The
hopping is completely up to you, of course.

One thing that helps a lot is using a second cooler to hold the sparge
water.  That frees up the stove, calms my mind and generally organizes my
frenetic procedures.  The poor thing's a swelling 44 quart Coleman cooler I
wouldn't choose on purpose, but it's what I had for free in the basement
and it works.  I fill it with the sparge water at 185 to 190, and I'm good
to go for both batches.  I know that that's too hot, but the water has to
stay hot after heating the cooler, waiting for up to two hours and running
slowly through the plastic hose into the lauter-tun.  My sparge pH is
naturally low, and I figure that, if it's not perfect, I'm only making
beer.

I remember an article in Zymurgy where someone recommended brewing two
batches staggered together, but I thought it would be way too much work.  I
think I was wrong.  It took me a little longer, but only an hour or so, and
that's completely without prior planning.  The cleanup was the same.  If
you're interested in high-gravity beers, I recommend going for two.

Chris Cook
cook at cdhf1.gsfc.nasa.gov

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Date: 19 Apr 1993 11:16:06 -0500
From: "Daniel F McConnell" <Daniel.F.McConnell at med.umich.edu>
Subject: 1993 Mazer Cup Mead Competi

                       Subject:                               Time:11:13 AM
  OFFICE MEMO          1993 Mazer Cup Mead Competition        Date:4/19/93

We wish to announce the 2nd annual Mazer Cup Mead competition.  Full 
information and entry forms have been published on the mead lovers digest.
They may be obtained from me via e-mail either electronically (preferred)
or via snail mail upon request. An edited version follows.


                         1993 MAZER CUP MEAD COMPETITION

ELIGIBILITY:
    This is an AHA sanctioned event.  All Makers of Mead are eligible. 
    You may enter as many categories as you like, but are limited to one 
    entry per category.

ENTRY REQUIREMENTS:
(1) Each entry will consist of TWO (2) BOTTLES of at least 177 mL (6 oz),
    but not more than 750 mL (25 oz) preferably, 12 oz.  Both corked and
    capped entries are acceptable.  Black out identifying marks on bottles
    or caps.

[snip]

WHEN, WHERE, HOW:
(1) Entry fee is $5.00 per entry. All North American entries will be 
    accepted between Monday June 7 and Friday June 18, 1993.  International
    entries will be received anytime before June 18.
(2) First round judging will be held on Friday, June 25.
(3) Best of Show judging will be held on Sunday, June 27.
(4) Make checks Payable to: Dan McConnell, Mazer Cup Mead Competition.
(5) Entries can be dropped off or shipped to the following location:

                       MAZER CUP MEAD COMPETITION
                            c/o Dan McConnell
                           1308 West Madison
                           Ann Arbor, MI 48103


AWARDS AND PRIZES:
The beautiful mazers are hand-thrown at the prestigious Pewabic Pottery.
(1) The AHA/HWBTA 50-point rating scale will be used, with 25 points 
    required for award eligibility.
(2) The brewer of the 1st place in each category will be receive a 
    ribbon and a mazer.
(3) The brewer of the 2nd place in each category will be receive a 
    ribbon and a mazer.
(4) The brewer of the 3rd place in each category will be receive a 
    ribbon and a mazer.
(5) The BEST OF SHOW will receive the  Best of Show ribbon and the 
    coveted hand-crafted communal mazer.


FOR MORE INFORMATION, CALL:
    Ken Schramm, Competition Director        313.291.6694
    Dan McConnell, Competition Registrar     313.663.4845
    Hal Buttermore, Judge Director           313.665.1236
    Mike O'Brien                      FAX    313.485.BREW


MISC INFORMATION:
(1) e-mail to Dan McConnell will get you a snail-mail copy of this flyer 
    (in color!) and entry forms. Last year entries-check your mailbox.
(2) User printed forms are acceptable and encouraged.
(3) Qualified Mead Judges are invited to judge this event. Contact Dan 
    McConnell via e-mail or Hal Buttermore by telephone.


MEAD CATEGORIES:

1. SHOW:  Mead consisting of honey, water and yeast ONLY.  No spices, 
    fruit or other flavoring additives permitted.  Addition of water 
    treatments and acidification is permitted.
2. TRADITIONAL:  Mead consisting of honey water and yeast.  Other 
    flavoring additives are permitted in small amounts, but the primary 
    flavor must be of honey.
3. MELOMEL:  Fruit, other than Grapes or Apples.
4. CYSER:  Apples.
5. PYMENT:  Grapes.
6. HIPPOCRAS:  Spiced Pyment.
7. METHEGLIN:  Herbs and/or Spices.
8. BRAGGOT (BRACKET):  Malted barley (must be at least 50% honey).


SUBCATEGORIES:
a) Sparkling. 
b) Still.  




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Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1993 09:01:38 -0700
From: roth at avsan1.irvine.dg.com (John Roth)
Subject: Old Time Root Beer Request

Hi folks!  I'm in search of recipes and/or references regarding homemade
root beer.  On a recent trip to the local homebrew supply shop, the proprietor
bragged about the quality of homemade root beer as opposed to what is currently
available in a can.  My wife and son were in attendance, so I am now being
pressed to make some.  Please email any suggestions directly to me.
Thanks

 -John

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Date: 19 Apr 1993 13:33:11 -0300
From: Ed Hitchcock <ECH at ac.dal.ca>
Subject: getting rid of DMS

	Having narrowed down the causes of my lager off-flavours to 
(way-)too much DMS either from bad yeast or slow cooling, I was wondering   
if there is any way to flush out the excess DMS?  Is there any way to       
encourage the yeast to consume it, or will renewing fermentation at a higher  
temp scrub out some of it?  It's pretty undrinkable now, is there anything  
I can do apart from bottle it in 2L bottles and hand it out to my friends   
who don't know any better?  Is there anything (non-toxic) that will remove 
or neutralize DMS (like maybe fruit acids or hot peppers)?  I really hate 
throwing away a brew.
	ed

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Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1993 11:07:23 -0800 (PDT)
From: Peter Maxwell <peterm at aoraki.dtc.hp.com>
Subject: dry hopping - HELP!

I tasted my first batch of dry hopped beer yesterday.  The effect was great,
but I was disturbed to see all this "stuff" in the beer.  It was sticking to
the sides of the bottles, which had to be rotated to loosen it so it would
sink.  It only "sort of" sank and they all have this fairly thick, loosely
packed layer on the bottom - not at all pleasant.

Undoubtably the problem is that I dry hopped with pellets and just threw them
in the secondary (allowing extra space for the frothing which occurred).  I
assumed they'd all sink to the bottom but apparently there was enough in
suspension to give my sediment problem.  I left them for a total time of one
week.  I can think of two ways to get around it and would like comments from
those with experience.

(a) Use a fine-mesh hop bag for the hops.  Would this reduce the extraction?

(b) Use the same hop bag tied around the end of the racking cane when
siphoning out.  Would this become clogged?


Any comments are most welcome.

	Peter

P.S.  In my darkest nightmares I have the picture that the sediment is not
hops at all but due to some horrible infection.  Is any infection likely to
produce stuff like this? 

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Date: Mon, 19 Apr 93 13:06:44 CDT
From: jay marshall <marshall at sweetpea.jsc.nasa.gov>
Subject: clarity (Breiss vs GW)

in #1121 Bob Jones says:

> After I switched to GW malt (from Breiss) my beers are much clearer
> before filtering.

Does anyone else care to comment on the clarity of beers brewed with
malts from different suppliers?  I had not noticed any differences, but
then I've not been looking for it either.  I usually attribute variations
in clarity and other qualities to my tendency to continually try new methods.
I have not looked specifically for those kinds of differences between
the various suppliers.  The reason I ask this is because I believe I 
remember a thread a while back about Breiss-based beer having higher levels
of DMS (due to their direct-kilning methods and the need to reduce 
nitrosamine levels using some kind of sulpher-based stuff??).  If there is 
a clarity difference as well, would it also be a by-product of their kilning
methods, i.e. direct vs indirect?

BTW, I have two local suppliers of malt.  The closest one has Breiss, the
other (25 miles further away) carries GW where there is an option.  If there
is a consensus on this clarity issue, I might try and get the closer one
to carry some GW.

Jay 
marshall at sweetpea.jsc.nasa.gov


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Date: Mon, 19 Apr 93 13:27 CDT
From: korz at iepubj.att.com
Subject: Dry Hopping?/bar bottles/protein rest/Chimay Duh!

Michael writes:
>I dry hop most of my beers regardless of style (read HopHead here) and 
>get satisfactory results with hop pellets.  However, the aroma associated
>with whole hops and plugs is quite appealing but the one attempt I made
>at dry hopping with whole hops was rather dissapointing.  I use glass
>carboys for primary and secondary and I could not get many whole hop
>cones into the secondary without creating a BIG mess.  How do you carboy
>users get whole hops and plugs into and out of your carboys with minimal
>fuss and contamination concerns?

I have been using 5 gallon carboys with a blowoff hose.  It's a rare yeast
that does not blow off enough room for an ounce of whole or plug hops.  I
tried dryhopping with pellets, but was disappointed with the results --
it appeared to me that the pellets sank to the bottom and were covered with
dying yeast, thereby negating their contribution.  The whole hops and plugs
that I use now float for at least 10 days (although I've found that much
more or less than 7 days provides less bouquet than 7 days exactly).  Also,
since the whole petals are much bigger than the small particles of pelletized
hops, they are less likely to get sucked-up by the siphon hose.  Last night,
I bottled a batch of American Pale ale.  The 1 ounce of whole Cascades had
been in the carboy (the primary) for 10 days (a bit longer than I wanted,
but unavoidable due to scheduling problems) and 95% of the petals were
floating on top, 5% were just sort of suspended.  I siphoned all but about
12 ounces out of the primary into the priming carboy and only one petal
made it into the priming carboy.  There was no clogging of the siphon.
Even if that one petal had been sucked up during bottling -- I'm certain
it would not have made it past the bottling valve.

*************************
Jack writes:
> A few weeks ago I walked to the neighborhood "bar" and was delighted to see 
> big, tall, brown Bud bottles on the bar so I asked the nice lady if she could 
> sell me some.  "Sell them, why you can have all you want." she said.
> 
> As she started handing them to me I noticed they were imposters.  They all 
> had screw tops and felt like delicate china.  So I headed for the local 
> homebrew shop and bought a case of brand new long necks for about the same 
> price as a case of Bud at the liquor store but I was saved the trouble of 
> dumping out the Bud and removing the lables.

Few bars still use "bar bottles" but you only need to find one.  If you
can't, you can try finding a liquor store that sells Huber or Rheinlander
or even Budweiser in bar bottles (I know that Mainstreet Deli and Liquors
in Countryside does).  If they sell the beer in bar bottles, they accept
the empties.  Mainstreet will sell you a case of empty Rheinlander bottles
for $1.20 and you get a nice, strong, waxed-cardboard box too.

*****************
Tony writes:
>Is there any harm in giving a mash a protein rest even if the grain is fully
>modified?  It seems like good insurance if no harm is done.

No harm, just a bit more time.

***********************
I wrote:
>There are actually, four varieties of Chimay available in the US.  I feel
>that the 750ml, corked bottles are different enough from the 330ml, crown-
>capped versions, to be considered a different type.  I would not have

Duh!  How did I get an MSEE without simple arithmetic skills.  Three plus
three is six, not four.  There are six different products sold by Chimay
in the US.  (By the way, Mainstreet Deli and Liquors in Countryside, IL
just got in a shipment of all six so I know all six are currently being
imported.)

Al.

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Date: Mon, 19 Apr 93 16:42:02 EDT
From: dipalma at banshee.sw.stratus.com (James Dipalma)
Subject: RE: 2112


Hi All,

	In HBD#1121, Philip J Difalco writes:

>My first endeavor is with the California Steam Beer
>Lager Yeast - Wyeast #2112, which is to ferment well up to 62^F.

>My test batch consisted of about 1.5 lbs of light DME, 3/8 oz.
>of Northern Brewer Hops, 4 oz. Clover Honey and 2 oz. peach
>marmalade - all boiled for about 45 mins.  This yielded about
>1 1/4 gallons of wort (I never took an SG reading).
>After the wort cooled, I added the starter and wort to a gallon
>jug, affixed an air-lock, and placed it in the basement (at 60^F).
>I got good blow-off the first day and a half.  It's been almost 6
>days now and the beer is still actively fermenting (bubble apprx.
>every 15s).
>
>QUESTIONS:
>1) This is my first attempt at a lager.  I've never seen fermentation
>   this active after 6 days.  Is this because it's only a 1 gallon
>   batch, or is this because of the qualities of a lager yeast?
>2) Wyeast #2112 is supposed to ferment well to 62^F, but would it
>   hurt to put this in a colder environment (my firdge)?
>3) I'm not planning on bottling until the apparent fermentation ceases,
>
>   or 3 weeks have elapsed, which ever is soonest - is this wise?

  I've used the 2112 for a half-dozen 5 gallon batches of steam beer,
I think what you're seeing is pretty typical of this yeast.
  The yeast seems to be a fairly slow worker.  I've fermented my batches
at 50F-58F, ambient basement temperatures at my place during the winter.
In each case, it took 9-14 days for the krausen to fall, and a good three
weeks for the beer to completely ferment out.  My first batch, kegged after
two weeks, had a fair amount of residual sweetness.  An additional week
at 55F cleared that up, but I'm not surprised you still had significant
activity on day 6.
  I believe 2112 is actually a lager yeast, one that doesn't produce harsh
flavors at warm fermentation temperatures, hence it's use for steam beer.
It wouldn't hurt to put it in the fridge, but I don't think that you would
get the muddy, rounded phenolic character of steam beer if you do.  The
batches I made that were fermented at 58F had noticeably more of this phenolic
character than the batches fermented at 50F.
  It's always advisable to hold off on bottling until fermentation ceases,
unless you're into glass grenades :-).  Based on my experience with this
yeast, I'd advise you to wait at least three weeks.

                                     Cheers,
                                      Jim


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Date: Mon, 19 Apr 93 14:11 PDT
From: /O=vmspfhou/S=dblewis/DD.SITE=JSCPROFS/ at NASAmail.nasa.gov
Subject: Bulk malt


***************************** PROFS Note *****************************
 From: DBLEWIS --VMSPFHOU            Date and time  04/19/93 16:10:27
 To: POSTMAN --NASAMAIL

 FROM: Dennis B. Lewis <InterNet:dblewis at jscprofs.nasa.gov>
 SUBJECT: Bulk malt

 I have a question for the net regarding storage of bulk malt grain. I've
 started moving toward all-grains and I'd like to start buying the grains in
 the 55-lb sacks from a mail-order place to save some cash. One problem I can
 see right now is storage of the grains. I live in Houston and it gets pretty
 humid here in the summer. While the house is air conditioned, I'm not sure
 that the humidity is low enough to protect the grains. Anybody have any ideas?
 Is it worth my time and money? I suppose that I could do it seasonaly and buy
 grains from the store for summer brews. I would probably go through a 55 lb
 bag in 2 maybe 3 months at my current brewing rate.

 Thanks in advance for all the expert advice.

 Dennis B. Lewis (713) 483-9145  **  NASA/JSC/DH65 Payload Ops
 Homebrew, The Final Frontier.


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Date: Mon, 19 Apr 93 14:10:52 PDT
From: Gary Rich <garyrich at qdeck.com>
Subject: brewing videos?

     Has anyone seen any good video tapes on the brewing process?  At my
     current point, going from following the directions on the can (nasty!) to
     all-grain snob I've come up against a number of things that it would help
     a lot to just _see_.  I haven't seen any videotapes on how to brew in the
     shops or brewspapers, but it seems like something that must be out there.
     I have friends that would like a primer to watch while they make those
     first few batches.  I also think videos on all-grain, decoction, etc
     would be a really good thing.

     If you like that how about a weekly TV show on home brewing?  Cable
     access anyone?
     -Gary R.-
              garyrich at qdeck.com


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Date: Mon, 19 Apr 93 18:46:45 EDT
From: ab126 at freenet.carleton.ca (Jay Cadieux)
Subject: ""Stretching" liquid yeasts



I've decided to make the change from dry to liquid yeast for my
next batch.  Can anyone tell me the procedure for "stretching"
liquid yeasts via culturing?  Thanks in advance...


- --
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jay A. Cadieux (ab126 at freenet.carleton.ca, 1:163/277.1 at fidonet.org). 
"His mind is not for rent, to any God or government" - Rush, "Tom Sawyer"
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------

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Date: Mon, 19 Apr 93 16:59:47 PDT
From: tpm%wdl80 at wdl1.wdl.loral.com (Tim P McNerney)
Subject: Re: Hops Primer


Russ Gelinas writes:

>   Hops grow vertically as one or more vines that spiral up a twine or anything

 ...

> single plant can easily grow 40 feet tall when it is mature but growth

So we are talking a plant which after a year or two could reach 40
vertical feet.  Maybe I am missing some obvious trick (can you train or
force the hops to grow horizontally), but how do people handle such
growth?  Do you have weather balloons with twine attatched to give the
plants full growing room or just use telephone poles as the "plant stakes"?
And in either case, do you harvest using a crane or can you just scale the
critter?  Perhaps getting people to skydive in and grab a couple of cones
on their way down would work, but I would probably have to cough up a
homebrew for each in repayment and that would make for a tough trade.

Not that I am worried, mind you.  I expect my brown thumb alone will
confirm that none of my hop plants grow more than a manageable 4-5 feet.
But in case my best efforts are unable to control their growth, what
should I (have you) done?

Thanks.

________________________________

- --Tim McNerney
- --Loral Western Development Labs
- --(408) 473-4748
- --tpm at wdl1.wdl.loral.com

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Date: Mon, 19 Apr 93 18:19:27 PDT
From: davidr at ursula.ee.pdx.edu
Subject: Root Beer

I'm looking for an old-time root beer recipe.  My great-great grandmother
used to make some.  I don't know if it was alcoholic or not, but if
anybody has either version, I'd appreciate a copy.

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Date: Mon, 19 Apr 93 18:31:41 -0700
From: l200-cu at garnet.berkeley.edu (mARK wITTEMAN)
Subject: "objective" beer tasting


I write this note as a humble submission for help from a group of people
who obviously know their beer a whole lot better than I.  I have been 
subscribing to HOMEBREW for about three weeks now, initially for the 
novelty of it, but now for the fun facts and information it gives me.

Besides being a beer enthusiast, I am also a masters student at UC Berkeley's
School of Library and Information Studies.  I am looking to wed an academic
term project with my pension for good beers.  More specifically, an instructor
in the School has asked that we create a mock cataloging system for a co
collection of things (real or imagined -- and not necessarily bibliographic
in nature) for a hypothetical library or other collection.  My bright
idea is to create a catalog for the bottled beers of California Micro-
breweries!  The catalog would allow for a detailed description of the 
beer including such things as:

	* Name of beer
	* Brewer and bottler
	* Ingredients (right down to the region or variety of hops and other
	  stuff)
	* Color, nose, and flavor
	* Seasonality (Winter Ale?  Spring Bock?)
	* Stylistic family (Porter, dry stout, IPA, etc.)

What I need help with is defining the proper terms and definitions needed
to describe the type of beer (stylistic family, above) and the essential
qualities of beer (color, nose, and flavor, above).  Is there a handy
book that lays out the rules of "objective" beer tastin and judging?  Where
am I likely to find it?  For that matter, is there a source that will list
all the brews of California?

Obviously, I am an amateur at the beer and ale game.  I don't need mountains
of information, just a detailed outline.  

Perhaps you're thinking, 

"Hey!  This guy is a grad student, and a future librarian besides!  Why can't
he find this for himself?"  Well, I've tried.  If such a tome exists, it
has eluded my best formulated search strategies.  Take pity on me and send
whatever information you think might help.

Thanks in advance.

========================================================================
                                                   o
                                                * o
                                                     *  
mARK h. wITTEMAN                              0000000000       STOUT
                                             00000000000       BITTER
MLIS Student                                 0==========       IPA
University of California                     0|.     . |===|   PORTER
Berkeley                                     0|  .  :  |  ||   PILSNER
                                             0| .   .  |  ||   BOCK
l200-cu at garnet.Berkeley.EDU                   |   .    |  ||   RAUCHBIER
                                              |  .    .|===|   SAISON
(Note that the first character in my          |.    .  |       WEISSBIER
 address is a lower-case 'L,' not a one.)     |   :    |       BARLEY WINE
                                              ~~~~~~~~~~

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Date: Mon, 19 Apr 93 18:38:30 -0700
From: l200-cu at garnet.berkeley.edu (mARK wITTEMAN)
Subject: Cry for Help, Part II


I should have mentioned in my first message that I already own a copy of 
M. Jackson's _New World Guide to Beer_, which has been my brief introduction
into the world of beer tasting and beer families.  I need a little more
info than it provides in its introductory chapters.

========================================================================
                                                   o
                                                * o
                                                     *  
mARK h. wITTEMAN                              0000000000       STOUT
                                             00000000000       BITTER
MLIS Student                                 0==========       IPA
University of California                     0|.     . |===|   PORTER
Berkeley                                     0|  .  :  |  ||   PILSNER
                                             0| .   .  |  ||   BOCK
l200-cu at garnet.Berkeley.EDU                   |   .    |  ||   RAUCHBIER
                                              |  .    .|===|   SAISON
(Note that the first character in my          |.    .  |       WEISSBIER
 address is a lower-case 'L,' not a one.)     |   :    |       BARLEY WINE
                                              ~~~~~~~~~~

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End of HOMEBREW Digest #1123, 04/20/93