FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Rob Gardner, Digest Coordinator


Contents:
  Re: Mashing on an Electric Coil Stove (Marc de Jonge)
  historical recipes,part 1 (ROB THOMAS)
  Re: Bottling Scotch Whiskey (Dimitri_Katsaros.Wbst139)
  BEER WITH THE BENDS (tmr1)
  Scotch Ale/Caramel Flavor (Tom Leith MIR/ERL 362-6965)
  Starting All Grain & Cooler Mash Tun/Lauter Tun construction ( Neil Mager )
  Humor (Jack Schmidling)
  Single Malt Scoth Whiskey (Lee Menegoni)
  Requesting the e-mail or snailmail address of Michael Jackson (Dimitri_Katsaros.Wbst139)
  Please Resend. ("AUSQM1")
  Don O'Connor's Beer, Premier Malt (Mark Garetz)
  Headhunters May Meeting (W. Chicago 'burbs) (Hi-keeba!)
  Who's responsible for micrbrewing?? (Todd M. Williams)
  RIMS and dry yeast use by micros ("Bob Jones")
  Re: RIMS, vent pipe, and channeling (Kelly Jones)
  Re: 5 litre kegs and N2O (Stephen Brent Peters)
  Mash Temp (Jack Schmidling)
  Mashing on an Electric Coil Stove (David Ferguson)
  oatmeal (Laura Conrad)
  Trappist Coors? (Kirk Anderson)
  A few questions about mashing... (Drew Lynch)
  Long distance dispensing (Dennis J. Templeton)
  RIMS (Alan Gerhardt)
  Refrigerator Idea (Alan Gerhardt)
  What's up with Jim Koch? (Daniel Philbrick)


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For "Cat's Meow" information, send mail to lutzen at novell.physics.umr.edu



----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Apr 93 09:43:05 MET
From: dejonge at geof.ruu.nl (Marc de Jonge)
Subject: Re: Mashing on an Electric Coil Stove

In HBD1130 David Ferguson asks about mashing on an uncontrollable
stove:
  I would suggest using decoction mashing when suitable for the beer
  you're making. You'll only need the hottest and nothing settings.
  An other method (which also buffers temperature drop) is
  placing the mash-tun in a larger kettle with water.
  (if you have a number of cheap enamel on 
  steel pots ranging from 5 to 40L(1.5-10Gal))

  Marc de Jonge


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Date: Thu, 29 Apr 93 11:19:14 MET DST
From: ROB THOMAS <THOMASR at EZRZ1.vmsmail.ethz.ch>
Subject: historical recipes,part 1

Historical Recipes by F Accum 1821
translated by Rob Thomas.
All recipes are adjusted to give 4 UK gallons
of beer at fermentation (i.e. 5 US gallons).
All measurements are UK units (same as US, except
gallon US = 0.8 gallon UK)

PART 1

Brown Stout Porter.
- ------------------

Ingredients.
13.99 lb malt, 1/5 pale, 1/5 amber, 3/5 brown
5.3 oz. hops.

Mashing.
Mash 1: 2.375 gall of water at 165 F, 1.5 hours.
Mash 2: 1.875 gall of water at 160 F, 1.5 hours.
Mash 3: 1.938 gall of water at 186 F, 3/4 hours.

Boiling.
mash 1 boiled with the hops for 1.5 hours.
mash 2 boiled with the used hops for 1.75 hours.
mash 3 boiled with the used hops for 2.5 hours.

Produces 4 gall at 1071.
fg. 1024.
- ------------------------------------------------


London Ale.
- -----------

Ingredients.
25.45 lb pale malt
9.29 oz. hops.

Mashing.
Mash 1: 1.820 gall of water at 175 F, 0.5 hours,
         then add a further 0.91 gall at 175 F, 2 hours.
Mash 2: 2.180 gall of water at 180 F, 1.75 hours.
Mash 3: 1.270 gall of water at 150 F, 1.25 hours.
Mash 4: 1.270 gall of water at 150 F, 1.25 hours.

Boiling.
mash 1 boiled with the hops for 1.5 hours.
mash 2+3+4 boiled with the used hops for 3 hours.

Produces 4 gall at 1068.
fg. 1026.
- -------------------------------------------------


Table Beer.
- -----------

Ingredients.
10.1 lb pale malt
1.92 oz. hops.

Mashing.
Mash 1: 2.880 gall of water at 160 F, 0.75 hours,
         then add a further 1.71 gall at 160 F, 1.5 hours.
Mash 2: 2.700 gall of water at 180 F, 1.25 hours.
Mash 3: 1.980 gall of water at 185 F, 1.25 hours.

Boiling.
mash 1 + 1/2 mash 2 boiled with the hops for 1 hour.
rest of mash 2 + mash 3 boiled with the used hops for 2 hours.

Produces 4 gall at 1035.
fg. 1012.5.
- -------------------------------------------------





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Date: 	Thu, 29 Apr 1993 05:28:47 PDT
From: Dimitri_Katsaros.Wbst139 at xerox.com
Subject: Re: Bottling Scotch Whiskey

You (Ray McGlew) replied to my initial post with:
<The Scotch in the barrells is VERY flammable and can be considered a hazardous
material with a flash point of about 110 deg F. I suggest that you let me
handle this hazmat in a way that will prevent another Waco incident in your
neighborhood!>

Well... I appreciate the offer... how would you handle it differently?  I'm not
going to bottle in an enclosed area, and I don't smoke so... what other
considerations must I make?  And once the stuff is bottled and is as flammable
as you say, how do I store them without fearing that they'll turn into molotov
cocktails? :-) My last question would be where are you located? :-)

Hope to chat again with you soon
Dimitri Katsaros

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Date: Thu, 29 Apr 93 08:59 EDT
From: tmr1 at hotlg.att.com
Subject: BEER WITH THE BENDS

In HOMEBREW Digest #1130 of Thu 29 April 1993, Ed Hitchcock writes:

:>      Although perhaps impractical as Jack mentions, it does provide 
:> aesthetics.  To some, good head is part of a fine beer, but heavy 
:> carbonation may add an acidic tang, and deffinitely makes for a *fizzy* 
:> product.  By nitrogenating the beer, you get good head without the soda pop 
:> fizz.  The reason for this is, as Jack discovered, N2 is virtually 
:> insoluble in water at low pressures, which is why the pressure didn't drop 
:> in the keg. Ideally the beer in the keg should be naturally carbonated 
:> (primed like a Real Ale) before being dispensed this way, not force 
:> carbonated.  Force carbonating defeats the purpose.  The insolubility of 
:> nitrogen is the reason for the small bubbles, the beer gets "the bends"
:> when it comes out of the tap.

As a SCUBA diver, I would like to clarify the term "the bends" or as it
is also know as "decompression sickness" (DCS).   DCS is caused by dissolved
N2 coming out of solution from the blood, muscle and other fluids and body
tissues when a diver ascends too rapidly.  This forms tiny bubbles that
cause neurological and physiological damage to the body.

Although diatomic nitrogen (N2) is a very stable element and is relatively
inert at low temperature and pressure, it is easily dissolved in fluids
such as blood, water or beer.  I can't say if or why it causes a good head
on beer, but I can say that it will dissolve in it.

                                                Tom Romalewski

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Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1993 08:09:34 -0500
From: trl at photos.wustl.edu (Tom Leith MIR/ERL 362-6965)
Subject: Scotch Ale/Caramel Flavor

I tried to make a Scotch Ale six weeks ago or so, and I've just 
opened the first couple of bottles.  I used about 1/4 pound of 
"Mexican" brown sugar in the five gallon batch.  Mexican brown 
sugar seems to be highly unrefined, and has an absolutely 
delightful molasses taste to it.

Now that the yeast is firmly on the bottom of the bottles, I 
can tell that there is very little molasses on the nose, and 
just a faint aftertaste. Just for fun the other day, I went out 
and bought some MacAndrews and McEwain's Scotch ale to compare. 
 Since I like the MacAndrews better, I'll talk about IT.  The 
first thing I noticed was a strong malt/caramel nose and 
flavor.  We're talking strength like drugstore candy.  More 
caramel than malt, I think.  Tasty.  My attempt doesn't come 
close.  MacAndrews has more hop bitterness than mine does, but 
with all that caramel it probably needs it.  The color, body, 
gravity, head, and the rest are fine in the beer I made -- 
what's missing is the caramel flavor.

It was an all-grain recipe:

	5# 2-row
	4# Cara-Vienne
	1# Cara-Munich
	1/4# Mexican Brown Sugar
	Wyeast 1098
	7 HBU Kent Goldings bitter

	Mashed at 155 F to get unfermentables up

The question I have is "How do I get the stronger caramel 
flavor?"   The only thing I can think of to try is to get a few 
quarts of the strong first runnings from the lauter tun, and 
boil the h*ll out of it while sparging the rest to caramelize 
the sugars.  Or maybe melt the brown sugar in a saucepan, and 
caramelize it before adding it to the boil pot.  Or maybe buy 
some Brach's (tm) 
caramel cubes and dissolve `em in the wort instead of the brown 
sugar?

Got any ideas for me??

	t


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Date: Thu, 29 Apr 93 09:20:34 EDT
From: neilm at juliet.ll.mit.edu ( Neil Mager )
Subject: Starting All Grain & Cooler Mash Tun/Lauter Tun construction


I compiled a digest on All Grain brewing and Cooler Mash
Tun/Lauter Tun construction. The ~80 messages were extracted from
HBD's from the last 18 months or so. Many of the messages are
interrelated, so I left it in one file.

Stephen Hansen has kindly installed the digest in a file named 
all_grain_equipment.Z in the /pub/homebrew/docs directory
on Sierra.Stanford.EDU (thanks Stephen). If you are using  the
listserver, remember to leave off the .Z.

I hope others find this as useful as I have.

===============================================================================
Neil M. Mager
MIT Lincoln Laboratory       Lexington, MA
  Weather Radar - Group 43

Internet                    <neilm at juliet.ll.mit.edu>
Voice                       (617) 981-4803
===============================================================================



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Date: Thu, 29 Apr 93 08:49 CDT
From: arf at genesis.mcs.com (Jack Schmidling)
Subject: Humor

 
 It appears that Ulick Stafford (ulick at bernini.helios.nd.edu) took my recent 
 attempt at humor over his "cake beer" as a personal insult and put down.
 
 I meant nothing of the kind and apologized privately but thought it would be 
 useful to mention it publicly in case anyone else thought likewise.
 
 When someone says he put cakes in his beer, it is more than I can resist.  He 
 was obviously referring to cakes of baker's yeast.  Just for the record, I 
 used dry yeast in my experiment and make no claims about any other type.
 
 Also, for the record I refuse to use :) and accept the consequences.
 
 js

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Date: Thu, 29 Apr 93 9:52:10 EDT
From: Lee Menegoni <necis!lmenegon at transfer.stratus.com>
Subject: Single Malt Scoth Whiskey

Re: Bottling.  
Single Malt Scotch Whiskey refers to the Whiskey coming from a 
single barrel.  A whiskey like Chivas Regal is a blended
whiskey.  In a blended whiskey the intent is to produce a
product with identical taste from year to year.  With a Single
Malt whiskey each barrel will have differnt taste, however subtle
that provides a tasting adventure to the drinker.

If what you have is indeed barrels of single malt whiskey .  I would 
bottle the contents of each barrel separately and label accordingly
and enjoy the nectar of the heather.

Regarding bottling and flame point,  If flamibility is an issue do it 
in a well ventilated place like outside.  Reusing glass liquor bottles
with screw caps should be acceptable or wine bottles with corks.  The
liquor bottle and screw cap seems more practical with regards to re capping.
On principle I would not use plastic liquor bottles.



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Date: 	Thu, 29 Apr 1993 07:11:31 PDT
From: Dimitri_Katsaros.Wbst139 at xerox.com
Subject: Requesting the e-mail or snailmail address of Michael Jackson

Hi all.... I was corresponding with Ray McGlew and he suggested:
<<I might try contacting Micheal Jackson.  He was an expert in scotch before he
got into beer.  If you do try and contact him I would have the names of the
makers, and the ages, of the scotches in question. .... I don't know if Jackson
has an E-mail address, you might post on the HBD a request for an address,
mailing or otherwise.>>

So... any of you out there know?

Thanks in advance
DImitri Katsaros

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Date: 29 Apr 1993 03:34:59 U
From: "AUSQM1" <AUSQM1 at ausqm1.sps.mot.com>
Subject: Please Resend.

Mail*Link(r) SMTP               Homebrew Digest #1130 (Apri
!!!! Original Message >= 24K; See following enclosure. Preview follows
!!!!




HOMEBREW Digest #1130		             Thu 29 April 1993


	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Rob Gardner, Digest Coordinator


Contents:
  Don O'Connor's Beer, Premier Malt (Mark Garetz)
  Headhunters May Meeting (W. Chicago 'burbs) (Hi-keeba!)
  Who's responsible for micrbrewing?? (Todd M. Williams)
  wishlist from vienna/berlin... (Todd M. Williams)
  Re: Problem with Nottingham Yeast (LYONS)
  N2 and beer / hops (Ed Hitchcock)
  Re: Chimay yeast (John Adams)
  Belgium Wheat Malt & Biscuit (Jim Busch)
  Re: Alcohol and other drugs  (Troy Howard)
  Easy Yeast Culturing 3 (Troy Howard)
  Mashing on an Electric Coil Stove (David Ferguson)
  Bottliing Scotch Whiskey (MCGLEW, RAY)
  Re: Alcohol and other drugs (colesa)
  RIMS, vent pipe, and channeling (J. Michael Burgeson)
  Nottingham/Whitbread/hop growth (korz)
  Dominion Brewing (gorman)
  Decocting and Concocting (Jeff Frane)
  Micros using dry yeast? (LYONS)
  Update to Pub list (jmellby)
  Re: CO2 cartridges (Tim Norris)


Send articles for __publication_only__ to homebrew at hpfcmi.fc.hp.com
  (Articles are published in the order they are received.)
Send UNSUBSCRIBE and all other requests, ie, address change, etc.,
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  then you MUST unsubscribe the same way! 
If your account is being deleted, please be courteous and unsubscribe
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  (Those without ftp access may retrieve files via mail from
  listserv at sierra.stanford.edu. Send HELP as the body of a
  message to that address to receive listserver instructions.)
Please don't send me requests for back issues - you will be silently
ignored.
For "Cat's Meow" information, send mail to
lutzen at novell.physics.umr.edu


- ----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1993 18:15:47
From: garetz at brahms.amd.com (Mark Garetz)
Subject: Don O'Connor's Beer, Premier Malt

George Fix asks about Don O'Connor's beer.

I can personally atest to the high quality of Don's (and wife Lynne's)
beers. As to why he doesn't enter competitions, I'll let Don answer
that one
but I suspect the beers would fare well.  I'll also give Don a chance
to
post the story on the "O-Ring" beer.  It was very interesting and in
fact
published in their latest newsletter (St. Patricks of Austin).

"Bob" asks about Premier Malt Products yellow can:

I read somewhere that Premier Malt Products had picked up the license
to
distribute the old "Pabst Blue Ribbon" extract.  I think it was in the
first
issue of that supposedly funny brew paper out of Michigan.


- ------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 28 Apr 1993 0:43:21 -0500 (CDT)
From: BIRMINGH at FNAL.FNAL.GOV (Hi-keeba!)
Subject: Headhunters May Meeting (W. Chicago 'burbs)


         The May meeting of the Headhunters homebrew club will happen
on
    Friday, May 7, from 7-11 PM. The meeting will be at Greg Lawrence's
    place, 4 S 245 Wiltshire Lane, in Sugar Grove, IL. Bring beer or
wine
    and munchies. 

         For more information, call Greg evenings at (708) 557-2523, or
    e-mail me at birmingham at fne683.fnal.gov

                                                     Phillip Birmingham


- ------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Apr 93 03:10:19 CDT
From: todd at gold.rtsg.mot.com (Todd M. Williams)
Subject: Who's responsible for micrbrewing??

Boy that guy in Boston(tm) does not give it a break....the new radio
ads
here in Chicago(tm) treat us to Jim(tm) Koch(tm) telling us how he
practically
invented the "microbrewery"(tm) and how the "big guys"(tm) spill more
beer than
he makes in a year.  I'm geting really tired of this guys crap and
shall
continue to not drink his products.  I also will continue to tell
everyone
I know/meet, about his never ending shenanigans.  I urge y'all to do
the same.
This guy could give a lot of politicians a run for their (read:our)
money.

Sigh...Sorry...had to get that off my chest...I feel better now...thank
you.

Todd(tm) 
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Subject: Homebrew Digest #1130 (April 29, 1993)





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Date: Thu, 29 Apr 93 08:15:03 PST  
From: "Bob Jones" <bjones at novax.llnl.gov>
Subject: RIMS and dry yeast use by micros

>J. Michael Burgeson asks about RIMS, vent pipe, and channeling.
>
>
>I am putting together a RIMS system, and have been reviewing designs
>and discussions from past HBDs.  I am most interested in the topics
>of grain bed compaction and channeling of liquor through the grain
>bed.
>
>In HBD #1088, Bob Jones posted concerns about grain bed compaction
>in RIMS systems.  He related that he was unable to get a 10 gal.
>setup to work properly.
>
>In HBD #806, Alan Gerhardt posted an article about his RIMS system.
>Alan's system included a vent pipe which extended above the grain
>bed from the copper pipe manifold on the bottom of the mash/lauter
>tun.  I think the use of a vent pipe would go a long way toward
>reducing the compaction problem.  Bob, did you try a vent pipe?

I have not tried a vent pipe, but I would guess that due to grain compaction
you will get a very large flow through the vent pipe and this would make for
alot of HSA and poor heat transfer in the heater due to all the foam. ie I
don't like it. Still an anti-RIMS zealot!

There are still alot of micros using dry yeast. The dry yeast used to come
from Siebels and was of a pretty high quality. I understand from Micah that
they are now being sold by Crosby and Baker (I think). He is planning on
using them at Murphy's Creek. The use of dry yeast in brewing at micros,
when you pitch a brick of yeast in a batch provides a large population of
good guys to bad guys and I haven't seen much problem around here that I
would contribute to dry yeast use. Now bottling (which Murphy's Creek plans
to do) is another story. Those small counts of critters can cause problems
when the beer is not stored and handled properly (which IS always the
case).

Bob Jones

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Date: Thu, 29 Apr 93 11:17:24 -0600
From: Kelly Jones <k-jones at ee.utah.edu>
Subject: Re: RIMS, vent pipe, and channeling



In HBD 1130, Michael.Burgeson at Eng.Sun.COM (J. Michael Burgeson) writes
about a proposed RIMS system, and says:

>  With a RIMS system, channeling during the mash would not be a
problem.

I am not sure this is the case. The purpose of the recirculation is to
evenly distribute both the heat and the enzymes/starches/etc.  If
significant channeling is occurring, this distribution will not be as
efficient, thus reducing the potential gains from the recirculation.


> What I would like to propose is using a vent pipe, but running it >
outside the mash/lauter tun.

While putting the tube outside will certainly eliminate this as a
source of channelling, I am skeptical as to whether this vent tube is
worth having. My understanding of the compaction problem is that it is
due to the suction from the recirc pump.  If this is so, then a vent
tube will not help (regardless of whether it is inside or outside the
vessel).  The tube will merely act as a manometer, displaying the
suction inside the vessel as a drop in liquid height in the tube.  The
exception to this is if the suction is great enough to drop the fluid
level in the tube below the level of where it enters the vessel, in
which case air will be sucked into the vessel from the tube.  This will
"clamp" the suction in the vessel at its present value, not allowing it
to increase any further.  However, (1) you may already have significant
compaction at this level of suction, and (2) air will be entrained into
your recirc stream, possibly causing loss of pump prime, and hot-side
aeration.

My suggestion is to use the vent tube, installed outside the vessel,
but use a clear tube so that you can observe the fluid (suction)
level.  Find a level (by trial and error) where compaction does not
occur, and set your pump flow rate to maintain approximately that
level.  (This would probably require constant monitoring, or better
yet, a closed loop feedback system.)

Another suggestion, which I throw out for discussion, is this: why not
recirculate _upward_ through the grain bed? It seems as though this
would reduce the compaction problem, as you are no longer creating
suction within the bed...

Disclaimer:  My degree is in Chemical Engineering, so I am very
familiar with the physics involved here; however, I speak from
_in_experience, as I have not built nor used a RIMS system.  I am
planning one, but will have to wait to get sufficient $$$ before I can
build one.  Anyone from the Salt Lake area want to pool resources???

Good Luck, 
Kelly  <k-jones at ee.utah.edu>

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Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1993 13:33:40 -0400 (EDT)
From: Stephen Brent Peters <sp2q+ at andrew.cmu.edu>
Subject: Re: 5 litre kegs and N2O

Since I only had one N2O cart to start with and that little one wasn't
quite enough to empty one keg I'd have to say I'm not yet prepared to
call N2O or CO2 superior.  I'm willing to bet that with this equipment
the results will be the same as the gas cannister does not carbonate
the beer, only push it out of the keg.  You still have to prime your
beer before you put it in the keg.

               Steve Peters =  sp2q at andrew.cmu.edu             
                  *Oxnar demands a _Sacrifice!_*                      

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Date: Thu, 29 Apr 93 13:47 CDT
From: arf at genesis.mcs.com (Jack Schmidling)
Subject: Mash Temp

 
 >From: David Ferguson <davidfer at microsoft.com>
 
 >I am a semi-experienced homebrewer contemplating my first all grain
 batch.  I'm wondering though if I will be able to use an electric stove
 to maintain the precise temeratures needed for a successful mash.
 
 I think it is worth stating an opinion which other may choose to disagree 
 with.
 
 Contrary to popular opinion and probably one of the many momilies that keep 
 extract brewers from taking the plunge into all grain is the perceived need 
 for precise temperature control for a "successful mash".  If by a successful 
 mash we mean producing a good beer at a nominal extract yield, I suggest that 
 you can achieve that even if your mash temp wanders randomly between 150F and 
 160F for 30 minutes or more.
 
 With the right equipment and attitude, the "plunge" into all grain really 
 becomes more like falling off a log.
 
 The notion about precise temperatures is based on the theoretical action of 
 enzymes on starches which produce slightyly different amounts of different 
 sugars at various point in the temp range.
 
 If that is important to a first time all grainer, I would be very surprised.  
 These details are important for acheiving nominially different character for 
 different styles of beer but I seriously doubt that very many home brewers 
 are capable of maintaining the kind of temperature control required to prove 
 the point.
 
 js
 

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Date: Thu, 29 Apr 93 12:04:20 PDT
From: David Ferguson <davidfer at microsoft.com>
Subject: Mashing on an Electric Coil Stove

Thanks to all who replied to my question regarding mashing on an 
electric stove with limited heat settings.  Sounds like it's not that 
big a problem.  The following is a short collection of replies:

>From Tim Fairclough

	I mash in my oven and boil on the electric coil stove all the time. By
mashing in the oven I mean: setting my oven as low as it will go which
will hold a mash at 150 degrees perfectly. I stir ocasionally during the
mash period and heat the sparge water during the last half hour or so of
the mash period. I have done three partial mashes and one full mash this
way with great success (IMHO).  I should mention I have only done
infusion mashes. Good luck.

>From Karl Sweitzer

I use a .25 inch thick plate of brass over my coil stove to more equally
distribute the heat.  I found that I got coil burn marks in the bottom
of my thin boiling pot (even with extracts!).

>From Jason Goldman

I mash on an electric stove and I've been very successful.  The trick is
not to be in too much of a hurry.  In other words, if you are 10 deg shy
of your target temperature, don't turn the stove on red_hot to get it up
quicker.  When I do ales, I heat my mash water to around 180 def F.  Then
when I add the grain, it settles out to about 158 deg F.  After stirring
in the grain so I achieve a good mash in, I take it off the stove and put
the lid on.  If the temperature was too low (or if the mash temp drops),
then I put it back on the stove on hot/less hot for a while to raise the
temp.  Grain is a very good temp buffer on its own.

> From Ed Hitchcock

	If you're making a lager, you can do a decoction mash.  Heat the
mash water to about 135-140F and add grist. Let rest 1/2 hr.  Remove a
portion of the mash (grain and liquid) and bring that to a boil on the
stove and add back to the mash to raise the temp.  You may want to do rests
at 149-145F and 159-155F, so you'll want to remove maybe 3 quarts or so
(I've never actually done a thick decoction, so I can't give you the exact
numbers) to boil.  You can take small amounts and repeat a few times which
takes a little longer, but you won't cook too much of the mash, nor
overshoot your target temperature.

***************

I couldn't resist throwing in my $.02 on the Alcohol and other drugs 
thread too.  The only reason I see to outlaw the use of drugs is to 
protect the public against people who use them.  IMHO the government 
should have no right to tell me what I can and can't do to myself, but 
if I start affecting those around me I am beyond my rights.  With that 
in mind, I would say someone high on a stimulant would be more likely 
to affect those around them and hence would be more dangerous.  
Alcohol, being a depressant, slows people down.  Although they can 
still be violent and troublesome, I think the general opinion is that 
they would not be such a threat to the public as someone on a 
stimulant, hence less regulation.

I am opposed to regulation of *most* drugs (although I use no illegal 
drugs by my own choice) and will never understand the arguments for 
legalizing alcohol, but not marajuana (sp?).

Dave "Don't tell me what to do" Ferguson

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Date: Thu, 29 Apr 93 16:47:47 EDT
From: lconrad at poincare.Prime.COM (Laura Conrad)
Subject: oatmeal

How do other people incorporate the oatmeal into an oatmeal stout (or
other beer)?

I've made 3 or 4 batches, and previous to last weekend I had used
Quaker oats from the supermarket, and added them to the mash.

Last weekend it was easier to go the the natural food store and buy
rolled oats from the bulk bins.

I frequently taste the grain when the sparge is through, to verify that
it is tasteless.  This is usually the case.  This is confirmed by the
fact that animals (including birds when there are other food sources)
don't seem to be very interested.

However, last weekend, there was still definitely oatmeal flavor in
the "spent" grains.

I don't remember whether I've tasted the Quaker oats batches. However,
I donate my spent grains to a friend who uses them for
landfill/compost.  He reported that there was definitely some animal
who had been eating around that batch.

Would I get better extraction if I cooked the oats before adding them
to the mash? Or is the flavor of the oats not really the point anyway?

		Thanks,

		Laura

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Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1993 16:45:40 -1100
From: Kirk_Anderson at wheatonma.edu (Kirk Anderson)
Subject: Trappist Coors?

John Adams writes:

|I talked with one of Coors' microbiologists last night related to
|Chimay yeast strain quesition.  He studied for his brewing PhD. in
|Belgium so I highly value both his acedemic and professional opinions...
|His recommendation was to use Chimay if you wish to culture a trappist
|style yeast.

How many people like this does Coors employ, and what do they do there?
Coors? As in, 'It's (the) water'? Coors?  Will we see a 
Colorado Trappist ale sometime soon?   Correct me if I'm wrong, but his
must be a frustrating line of work. What does he drink when he goes home?


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Date: Thu, 29 Apr 93 13:06:28 -0700
From: Drew Lynch <drew at chronologic.com>
Subject: A few questions about mashing...

  I am planning to brew the following two batches this weekend.

1) Imperial Stout
   Desired Yield: 5.5gallons at .1075
   Estimated Extract Effeciency: 27  (pts*gal/lb)
   Total Malt: 15.5
   
   .5 lb Chocolate
   .5 lb roasted Barley
   .5 lb flaked (barley or red wheat)
   14 lbs Klages
   Method: Overnight single step infusion mash starting at ~155F (should
           end at ~145F)
   Sparge with ~5 gallons 180F water (No Mashout)
   Boil 30 minutes
   Hops:
   Boil: 60 IBU Chinook (1 hour)
   Flavor: 10 IBU Cascade (15 minutes)
   Aroma: 1.5 oz Cascade (15 minute steep)
   Immersion Chilled to 80F
   Yeast: Wyeast Irish Ale (.5l starter from slant)

2) American Brown Ale
   Desired Yield:  5.5 Gallons at 1.045
   Estimated extract efficiency: 27 (pts*gal/lb)
   Total Malt: 9.25lbs
   
   .5 lb 40L Crystal
   .25 lb black Patent
   .25 lb Chocolate Malt
   .25 lb Flaked (barley or Red Wheat)
   8 lbs Klages
   Method: 2 hour single step infusion mash at 156F (should end at ~154F)
   Sparge with ~5 gallons 180F water (No Mashout)
   Boil 30 minutes
   Hops:
   Boil: 25 IBU Cascade  (1 hour)
   Flavor: 5 IBU Cascade + 5 IBU Willamette (15 minutes)
   Aroma: .5 oz Cascade + .5 oz Willamette (15 minute steep)
   Immersion Chilled to 80F
   Yeast: Steinbart's Brown Ale (.5l starter from slant)


And,  I have a few questions (imagine that!):

1) In the past, I have made my own roasted barley by toasting milled 2
row klages at 350F for 15 minutes.  The beer came out *very* cloudy.
Any ideas how to avoid this?

2) When a yeast's attenuation percentage is listed, is that
%(fermentable sugar) or %(total sugar)

3) How can one determine the fermentable/unfermentable ratio *prior*
to mashing?  What percentage fermentables can I expect at 158F mash?
At 148F mash?

4)  I have never gotten the iodine test to go negative in less than 2
hours in the 153F-156F range.  The top of the mash may test negative
for starch, but upon stirring, the test will go positive.  I always
wait untils the stirred mash tests negative.  I also tend to get very
alcoholic, thinner bodied ales.  I would prefer a fuller bodied lower
alcohol (4.5% desireable) brew.  Should I be stopping the mash before
the test goes negative?

5) I prime with 1.5qts 1.040 sweet wort for bottling.  THis is roughly
equivalent to 3/4cup corn sugar.  Should I increase this for the stout
due to the high gravity?


	Phew...

	Thanks in advance,
	   Drew

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Date: Thu, 29 Apr 93 18:30:13 -0400
From: djt2 at po.CWRU.Edu (Dennis J. Templeton)
Subject: Long distance dispensing



I haven't yet resolved with my spouse the issue of space in the kitchen
fridge for a beer keg, but I thought up this compromise the other day:

How about putting the keg and CO2 tank in the basement and running a 1/4
inch line up through the kitchen floor into the fridge, then through a
steel cooling plate and a tap?  This way, a single glass of beer would be
cooled enough, and for a group, you could put the cooling plate into a tub
of ice.  

My major concern is that I'd have to crank up the pressure to get a good
flow through about 12 feet of tubing, then the brew might be two gassy when
it's finally dispensed.

I'd appreciate hearing from folks who have used a long line between the
tank and the tap, and just what kind of problems you encountered.

dennis

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Date: Thu, 29 Apr 93 14:15:04 CDT
From: agerhardt at ttsi.lonestar.org (Alan Gerhardt)
Subject: RIMS


In HBD1130 Michael Burgeson mentioned possible differences in efficiency
between a "conventional" sparge and a recirculating sparge ala RIMS.

I have used both methods, and both worked OK with virtually no difference
in efficiency. So use whichever method you're comfortable with.

about channeling:

I also have never observed any channeling in my mashes, but to be
honest, I've never really been looking specifcally for that. I'll look
a little closer next time.

about vent tubes:

The vent tubes I have used in the past worked very well for minimizing
mash compaction due to suction from the pump. The tubes become less
effective as the quantity of grain increases. I'm not sure, but there
probably is a point where sheer weight of the grain is a factor.  
When the vent tubes do suck air, there is foam generated, and HSE could
be a factor. HSE never seemed to be a problem for me, but it could be
a concern in a RIMS setup.  So far,
I like my current method ( described later ), but being an obsessive
tinkerer, wait till next week. :) 

On my last two batches, I have used the vertical screen tube in the middle
of the mash until sparge time, when I removed it and recirculated the
wort at a slow rate ( no heat ), and then performed a "conventional"
sparge. On the first batch with the tube, I simply had the copper return
tube with a few holes drilled in it submerged below the surface of the 
wort.  On the last batch I had a 3/8" copper tube ( again with holes
drilled in it ) coiled in a spiral around the screen tube and spaced
approximately halfway between the screen tube and the side of the mash
tun.  This setup gave a very consistent temperature in all parts of the
mash, with no compaction at all.

As Bob Jones correctly pointed out, the ultimate test of a RIMS setup
is a large batch using predominately wheat malt.  I plan to try that
sometime this summer.

Cheers,
Alan


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Date: Thu, 29 Apr 93 14:16:55 CDT
From: agerhardt at ttsi.lonestar.org (Alan Gerhardt)
Subject: Refrigerator Idea


A few months ago, I successfully staged a coup de etat and gained possession
of the family freezer, hooked it up to my airstat, and brewed happily it
it while using my other beer fridge for serving temperatures.  Unfortunately,
after a spousal counter revolution combined with decreased availbility of
food, the freezer is now a freezer again .. with food in it instead of beer.
Oh well.

Now I have a dilemma with Texas summer coming. I need a 48-50F fermenting
environment, and a little lower temperature for serving.

I have an idea I have been considering:

With the airstat set at 49F, and the plastic freezer baffles set for 
minimum freezer temp, I placed a container of water with a thermometer
in the freezer compartment. The water temperature stays at about 34F, and
has not frozen after about 3 days inside. The temperature inside the rest
of the fridge is 49+-2F

Since the fridge holds 4 5gal soda kegs, I want to have two fermenting, one
aging, and one serving. My idea is to construct the equivalent of a 
jockeybox inside the freezer compartment. ( A cold plate would be nice,
but they are kind of pricey ) The beer from the serving keg would pass
through the coil and be chilled some, depending on how long the tube
was, flow rate, etc.

Has anyone tried anything like this?

Is this a crazy idea?

Any comments are welcome.

Cheers,
Alan


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Date: Thu, 29 Apr 93 21:21:42 -0400
From: danp at ursus1.ursus.maine.edu (Daniel Philbrick)
Subject: What's up with Jim Koch?

Can someone tell me why Jim Koch's name and products seem to be MUD on
this network. I just read a real caustic message about him and I
remember several about six months ago along the same lines. What did he
do? 

Dan Philbrick
|Sorry I Don't Have A Corny Saying|
DANP at URSUS1.URSUS.MAINE.EDU

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End of HOMEBREW Digest #1131, 04/30/93