FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Rob Gardner, Digest Coordinator


Contents:
  bottles, caps, and kegs (Matthew Mitchell)
  Adamstown PA microbrewery fest: June 11-12 (Matthew Mitchell)
  The Brews Paper (perreaul)
  source for bottles... (wayne_clark)
  purl recipe (ROB THOMAS)
  sparging (ROB THOMAS)
  Fridge question (Your recipe is so tasty  21-May-1993 0912 -0400)
  why secondary? ("Spencer W. Thomas")
  Jim Koch (oh no! not again!) ("Spencer W. Thomas")
  Hops, Fruits ("Spencer W. Thomas")
  chlorine (Russ Gelinas)
  Re: Secondary and Fruit (John DeCarlo)
  Re: sour mash guinness (Conn Copas)
  My Brown Ale (Chuck Coronella)
  Imported Beer in Ireland (Tim Murray)
  Sources of Cornelius Kegs  (JOHN.L.HALE)
  RE:  Equipment/Grolsch Bottles/Labels (greenbay)
  Evaporative Cooling ("William A Kitch")
  Racking off thee trub (Lee=A.=Menegoni)
  bittering hops ("Knight,Jonathan G")
  Re: SScleaning/sanitiation/NA/warmPitch/2ndaries/fruit/p-beer/ads (korz)
  Sour mash (Bill Vaughan)
  fruit, brewing, a sidenote (NULL0TROOPER)
  please cancel me for the summe ("Andrew M. Vota")
  Dupage County homebrew mtg (chris campanelli)
  Brew Store Employees (Kieran O'Connor)
  NHC round 1 entries arrived in Denver (Steve Dempsey)


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----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 20 May 93 18:05:49 EST
From: Matthew Mitchell <IEKP898%tjuvm.bitnet at TJUVM.TJU.EDU>
Subject: bottles, caps, and kegs

From:  Matthew Mitchell
Bottles:  I recall drinking Watney's Red from a 2 liter brown PET bottle
   I bought at a packy in Nantucket.  they also were kind enough to sell
   me a six of Ballantine's IPA for the price of regular Ballantine Ale...
   "Uh...I think I'd better get three more six-packs..."  8^)   !

Bottles:  Who said they were lucky enough to have stubbies|  I wish I had
   kept the Ortlieb's stubbies I used ten years ago.  We used a different
   bottle for each of our brands: pounders for the lager, kings for the
   malt liquor, green for the stout, clear for brown ale, and stubbies
   for special brews.  We also used A-Treat soda quart returnables
   "Party size":  wonderfully convenient when the biggest pain is cleaning
   and capping bottles.  (We get 12 oz painted A-Treats here too)

Caps:  Rather than putting labels or initials on caps, you may find it
   smarter to put a batch serial number.  (e.g. The batch 13 stout didn't
   carbonate as well as the batch 16)  You can compare brew to brew, and
   note at a glance through the hole in the top of the case how long a
   case full have been aging.
  Another good idea is to take a handful of caps, place them on a newspaper,
   and spray-paint them, color-coding by brand or recipe again.  This also
   has the benefit of covering the previous stuff on the caps.  (Cheaper
   to buy the overrun caps than plain ones)

and Kegs:
  David's keg with two valves is called the "Golden Gate" keg, which has
   not been in common use for a decade.  I think they're pretty good though.
   I remember drinking gravity-fed Bud one evening after a softball game when
   the pump of our tap failed|  You may have a hard time finding a tap
   to fit.

and BTW: I noted that McGillin's Old Ale House in Philadelphia advertises
   "Real Ale"  Is this REAL ALE as the CAMRA think of it (cask-conditioned
   and hand-pumped) or is it just real ale instead of faux ale like Molson
   Golden?

Howzat!?!
Matthew Mitchell     <iekp898 at tjuvm.tju.edu>   <iekp898 at tjuvm.bitnet>
Former Brewmaster, Penthouse Brewing Co., Haverford PA
makers of Barclay Beer, Penthouse Brown Ale, and Big B Malt Liquor


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Date: 20 May 93 18:25:32 EST
From: Matthew Mitchell <IEKP898%tjuvm.bitnet at TJUVM.TJU.EDU>
Subject: Adamstown PA microbrewery fest: June 11-12

From:  Matthew Mitchell

Stoudt's Black Angus will present the Second Great Eastern Invitational
Microbrewery Festival, June 11 and 12 in Adamstown,PA (betweenLancaster
and Reading)

Dates:  Fri. June 11 6-10pm and Sat June 12, 2-6 pm
Tickets:  (they suggest you purchase in advance: last year sold out)
   $15.00 per day (specify day)  check or MO payable to
   Black Angus Ltd., PO Box ???, Adamstown, PA  19501
Phone: 215-484-4385
Breweries expected:
  Dock Street, Philadelphia
  Arrowhead, Chambersburg
  British, Lithicum MD
  Wild Goose, Cambridge MD
  Oldenberg, Ft. Mitchell KY
  New England, Norwalk CT
  Old Dominion, Ashburn VA
  Buffalo
  Pennsylvania (Penn Pilsner), Pittsburgh
  Otter Creek, Middlebury VT
  Sam Adams Brew House, *Philadelphia*
  Vermont, Burlington
  Boston Beer Co (C)(R)TM and all those other reserved rights
    Hope they don't sue me for using their name in the post|
  New Haven
  and of course, Stoudt's

Price of admission includes souvenir tasting glass and food
They say there will be fifty tasting tables and that all the breweries
  will have at least two beers available.
This is not a competition, so expect a relaxed atmosphere, with the aroma
  of malt, hops, and brots, and probably German music, too.

If you're bringing along someone to drive, she or he may be interested in
  spending time among all the antique dealers on the Route 252 corridor
  while you drink beer.

Prosit|||
and
Howzat!?!
Matthew Mitchell     <iekp898 at tjuvm.tju.edu>   <iekp898 at tjuvm.bitnet>
Former Brewmaster, Penthouse Brewing Co., Haverford PA
makers of Barclay Beer, Penthouse Brown Ale, and Big B Malt Liquor


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Date: Thu, 20 May 93 19:02:29 EDT
From: perreaul at egr.msu.edu
Subject: The Brews Paper

I have been subscribed to HB for several months and have learned much and
now it is time for me to share with you.    Recently, I received as a gift
The Brews Paper which is a new paper recently published since I recieved
Vol.1.NO.2..  This paper is informative and also on the lighter side or
also comical since it is , The Official Bathroom Reading Material of
Homebrewers.   I know some of you are real serious, it seems buy what I
have read but for those who like humor or as the heading says,  "We Ain`t
Too Serious".    I found it to be a good break....

The Brews Paper, 1105 N. Front St.,Suite 28, Niles, Mi 49120

                  12 issues  for $15.00

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Date: Thu, 20 May 93 22:49:16 CDT
From: wayne_clark at SEMATECH.ORG
Subject: source for bottles...

From:	NAME: Wayne Clark                   
	FUNC: 230                             
	TEL: 512-356-3994                     <CLARK.WAYNE at A1 at VAXEN>
To:	"homebrew at hpfcmi.fc.hp.com" at INTERNET


          =>I'm very new to homebrewing, only four extract batches. I'm 
          looking for
          some basic equipment at low prices (Since I'm a college student). 
          I need
          a couple of glass carboy's and bottles.<=
          
          Rob,
          
          Like you, I am a homebrew novice.  I also had to find an 
          inexpensive way stock up on bottles.  One of the best places I have 
          found to get bottles is the local recycling center.  Occasionally, 
          I find that somebody has dropped off a whole case or three of 
          empties.  All that is required is a little elbow grease to clean 
          them up.
          
          Cheers,
          
          Wayne
          wayne_clark at sematech.org

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Date: Fri, 21 May 93 12:59:31 MET DST
From: ROB THOMAS <THOMASR at EZRZ1.vmsmail.ethz.ch>
Subject: purl recipe

Hello All,
Someone asked for a recipe for Purl a while ago.
Well, after rooting around in my note books I
found one copied by a book on brewing in London,
by Thomas Threale (aka Thrale) ca. 1800. He was
at the time one of the biggest London brewers,
with an annual output a little more than Whitbread,
so presumably he knew his stuff. I found the book
on microfische at the Management Library of
UCLA. But that's all I noted down. Anyway, here
it is:

Thos Thrale's Purl (ca. 1800)

Take Roman Wormwood, two dozen,
Gentian root, 6 lb,
Sweetflag root, 2 lb,
Galanga root (galingale?), 1-2 lb,
horseradish, 1 bunch,
Dried orange peel from the Indies (Curacao?), 2 lb,
Juniper berries, 2 lb,
Seville orange seeds, dried, 2 lb,
Cut and bruise all the ingredients, put in a butt,
(capacity 126 US gallons) and top up with pale or
mild ale. Store for one season.


Notes:
Gentians are protected flowers in Europe;
Sweetflag is a type of Sedge;
Galanga, to the best of my knowledge is galingale,
for which I have as yet to find a source;
The orange peel is almost certainly the Curacao
peel, still used by some Belgian brewers;
The ales appear to be normal in all respects;
I have no idea what 2 dozen of Wormwood refurs 
to (bunches, roots?).

Happy experimenting!
Rob Thomas.

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Date: Fri, 21 May 93 13:07:08 MET DST
From: ROB THOMAS <THOMASR at EZRZ1.vmsmail.ethz.ch>
Subject: sparging

Hello all,
I've just been reading a two volume book on brewing by
Hough, Stevens and a couple of others, in which they say
that in Europe (mainland) decoction mashing is often
followed by batch sparging. That is instead of sparging with a continuous
spray of water, the sparge water is dumped on in batches, the whole
lot stirred, and the washings run off completely before repeating.
For a 1055 beer they say that 3 such washes will give >99percent
extraction. As the gravity goes up, so do the number of washes required.
Any views? I noted in the equipment summary at Sierra.Stanford.Edu that
some of you out there are also doing this. Has anyone done direct
comparisons between the two methods?

Intrigued, Rob Thomas.

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Date: Fri, 21 May 93 06:13:56 PDT
From: Your recipe is so tasty 21-May-1993 0912 -0400 <ferguson at zendia.enet.dec.com>
Subject: Fridge question

I have a fridge related question that ya'll might be able to answer.  I'm
in the market for the smallest fridge that will accomodate 2 5gal soda kegs.
Typically, these are about 5 cu ft of storage.  of the ones i've seen, the
inside is big enough if you include the freezer space.  but, with the freezer
in place, typically there is not enough room.  the freezer is definitely an
integral part of the fridge (provides the cooling) - i just want to move it 
so it is not in the way.  i think this is possible, but, i'm wondering if 
anyone has done it.


	+---------------------+
	| |                 | |
	| |   freezer area  | |
	| +-----------------+ |
	|                     |
	|                     |
	|                     |  height including the freezer space is quite
	|                     |  sufficient.
	|                     |
	|                     |
	|                     |
	+---------------------+

the freezer area is pretty much a big, u-shaped piece of aluminum with channels
running through it that carry ??? (cold air? cooled liquid???).  In some of the
fridges i've checked out, the freezer u=shaped thingy can actually slide out.
I was thinking of either inverting it (upside down u) or bending the u parts
into a straight piece.  bending presents some risk, i reckon.  

any takers?  comments???

i'd go for a larger fridge, but alas, my living situation does not present
the opportunity (i live in an apt where space is a premium!).

JC Ferguson

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Date: Fri, 21 May 93 10:18:27 EDT
From: "Spencer W. Thomas" <Spencer.W.Thomas at med.umich.edu>
Subject: why secondary?

Some more reasons:

1. If you're going to do a long fermentation, or you can't bottle
until next month, then it gets the yeast off the trub.  Left on the
trub too long, the yeast will start to produce nasty tasting stuff.

Umm.....  Well, I think that's the main reason, anyway.

=S

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Date: Fri, 21 May 93 10:26:51 EDT
From: "Spencer W. Thomas" <Spencer.W.Thomas at med.umich.edu>
Subject: Jim Koch (oh no! not again!)

I finally heard a Sam Adams ad on the radio last night (midnight on
the local "classic rock" station -- who do they think is listening
then?  Brewers on their way home from a homebrew club meeting, is
who.)  Anyway, I notice he's moderated his claim about the GABF to
"won 3 times in a row".  Maybe those counter-suits are having some
effect...

By the way, Jim Koch (pronounced "cook"?) sounds kind of whiny.

=S

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Date: Fri, 21 May 93 10:34:42 EDT
From: "Spencer W. Thomas" <Spencer.W.Thomas at med.umich.edu>
Subject: Hops, Fruits

Mark Garetz writes:
 > "Joe" asks if you can tell the difference between hop varieties by flower,
 > scent or growth habits:
 > 
 > Yes to all.  However, it ain't easy.

I'm not a botanist, but I play one on the net:-)  But seriously, my
understanding is that each hops "variety" (cultivar) is genetically a
single individual that has been propagated vegetatively.  (As are
apples.)  If you have a random hop plant that came up from seed, then
the odds are about 99 billion to 1 that it is NOT a recognized
variety.  So trying to identify it is a lost cause.  However, if you
know that the plant is a known variety, but not which one, then you
have some hope.


 > I wonder if that beer was dry hopped?  Sometimes this can cause a "soapy"
 > flavor.  

I've noticed that dry-hopping often results in a "grassy" or "herbal"
taste that diminishes quickly with time.  Sort of like chewing on raw
hops.

=S

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Date:    Fri, 21 May 1993 10:39:11 -0400 (EDT)
From: R_GELINAS at UNHH.UNH.EDU (Russ Gelinas)
Subject: chlorine

   Steve posted about using chlorine as a preventative against Giardia.
It is my understanding that chlorine has no effect on Giardia cysts.
Iodine, on the other hand, will kill the cysts, especially with extended
contact periods (like overnight) and with warm water.  I know this has
nothing to do with homebrewing, but as someone who contracted Giariasis
*twice* last year (you don't want it, trust me), I don't want any 
misinformation getting out.

    'arf 'n arf: Also known as a "black and tan".  I once ordered one
and the waitress laughed in my face, turned to the bartender and said
"E'll 'ave a blaaak 'n taaaan".  He just looked dumfounded.  Then she
said "A block 'n tawn", and he said "Oh" and poured the pint. :-)

   I've got a bottle of Anchor Liberty Ale with much sediment in it.
Could it be live yeast?

Russell Gelinas
esp/opal
unh

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Date: Fri, 21 May 1993 14:57:49 GMT
From: jdecarlo at mitre.org (John DeCarlo)
Subject: Re: Secondary and Fruit

Why use a Secondary fermenter?

The reasons have already been mentioned, but I usually add a little 
explanation:

1) It gives the beer some time and a place to settle a little.  If you 
   aren't real careful about how much trub gets in your primary, you may
   have some trouble leaving it all behind (especially when there is more 
   than an inch or so).  When I rack to the secondary, I am real careful, 
   but don't care *that* much if some cloudy beer gets through.  When I am 
   ready to bottle, there is usually very little sediment left, which means 
   that my beer in the bottling bucket is very clear and there is little 
   noticeable sediment in the bottles.

2) Adding extra ingredients.  Any subtle ingredients, such as hops or spices 
   or fruit, will lose more aroma during a vigorous primary fermentation 
   than later on.  Adding them to a secondary is a good way to increase the 
   amount of aroma that remains.

3) Time.  If you travel, or have children, or any other demands on your 
   time, you may not be able to bottle the week or month your beer is 
   ready.  In that case, leaving the beer on very little sediment in the 
   secondary is *much* preferable to leaving it on the trub in the primary 
   for that extra week or month.  Even without any of the other reasons, 
   this reason alone is enough for me.

In summary, if you don't need the extra clarity or time or whatever, you 
don't need to use a secondary.  There is no magic.  Plus, you can go wrong 
with a secondary if you aren't careful about sanitizing or air-free racking.


Fruit:

I always put my fruit in the freezer overnight, supposedly to break down 
cell walls.  I find this much preferable to pureeing or the like.  I always 
get good aroma and flavor using this method.

John DeCarlo, MITRE Corporation, McLean, VA--My views are my own
Fidonet:  1:109/131  Internet:  jdecarlo at mitre.org

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Date: Fri, 21 May 93 16:16:20 BST
From: Conn Copas <C.V.Copas at lut.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: sour mash guinness

Brian writes:

"Ignore the comment about N. Brewer in my previous note - It is
a relative to Hallertau, which does not work in stouts (I've tried
it).  But then I seem to remember Jackson saying that Guinness
used N. Brewer.  I haven't used much N. Brewer.  Hmm.
The recipe works great with Goldings."

I find (British) N. Brewer works great in stouts; it definitely provides
flavour as well as bitterness when boiled an hour, unlike Hallertauer. Better,
if you are partial to fruit stouts, consider some Bullion for their
blackcurrant character. Unfortunately, these are being phased out here, and I
don't know of a suitable replacement. I actually find that if I use enough of
our cruddy, local Goldings, I also get blackcurrant. Conclusion? I am either
being sold mislabelled Bullion (unlikely, as they have Goldings aroma), or the
two varieties have something in common.

"The whole idea is to keep the protein in the beer, so you start with
Pilsner malt & don't do a protein rest.  Mash using you favorite technique,
but keep it short - 1hr or so.  Sparge w 170 F water (acidified).  Do not
recirculate excessively.  The short mash and the pilsner malt will help
avoid a stuck runoff."

Hmmm. Our anonymous lager malt (which admittedly isn't the same as pilsener
malt) shows _more_ tendency to set the mash than ale malt. I'd also be
interested to hear more about the effects of mash duration on viscosity; mine
seem to get more fluid with time. Unfortunately, I can detect lager malt in 
even the most aggressive stout (sulphur?), which is why I don't follow Miller's
advice. Some wheat malt is well worth considering, however.

- -- 
Conn V Copas
Loughborough University of Technology          tel : +44 509 263171  ext 4164
Computer-Human Interaction Research Centre     fax : +44 509 610815      
Leicestershire  LE11 3TU              e-mail - (Janet):C.V.Copas at uk.ac.lut   
G Britain                                      (Internet):C.V.Copas at lut.ac.uk


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Date: Tue, 21 May 91 09:45 MTS
From: Chuck Coronella <CORONELLRJDS at CHE.UTAH.EDU>
Subject: My Brown Ale

Last night, I tasted the brown ale that I bottled just last Sunday.  Wow!!  
I'm in love!  It's not clear yet, but it's already carbonated, and delicious! 
Maybe y'all can comment on the authenticity of the recipe:

CHUCK'S BROWN ALE
Ingredients for 4.5 US gallons

4 lb Alexanders Malt Extract
0.5 lb Chocolate Malt
0.8 lb Turbinado
~2 fluid oz. Honey
2.2 oz. Cascade Pellets (5.5% AA) 45 min
1 oz Cascade Pellets, dry hop in secondary
0.5 t. Irish Moss
Yeast
OG  ~1.042
FG   1.010

The choc. malt was steeped in 65'C water for 20 min and then sparged (and
removed).  The yeast was made from the dregs of 10 bottles of beer (that got
dumped due to excessive aluminum leaching) that had been in a starter for 3
days before hand.  The yeast for that batch came from the dregs of several
bottles of stout, which was made with WYeast Irish Ale.  (I think I could make
beer from the dregs of the brown ale, but that might be one to many
generations!)  Temperature of fermentation was 60 - 70'F, 6 days in primary, 9
days in secondary (with dry hops).

I can't describe the taste so well, but it certainly is one of the best that 
I've ever made.  The hop nose is wonderful!  I ran across the tubinado in a 
health food store, and thought why not?  I believe that is added some residual 
sweetness to the beer.  I hope that I can duplicate this one some day.

Chuck

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Date:         Fri, 21 May 93 08:30:32 PST
From: Tim Murray <MURRAYT at WSUVM1.CSC.WSU.EDU>
Subject:      Imported Beer in Ireland

Reading the thread about Bud in Germany and England reminded me of an
experience I had in Ireland last year.  While traveling out to the countryside
by train one Sunday morn, we stopped at a station across from a train of Irish
football fans coming into Dublin.  Having been in the country for about a
week, I had already fallen in love with draught Guiness, Smithwick's, and Harp,
so I was shocked to see the tables of the adjacent train littered, not just a
few - piles, of Bud empties.  The Irish natives told me that AB had put-on
quite an advertising blitz and that Bud was becoming more popular.  How
anyone with ready access can choose Bud over the other wonderful beers is still
beyond me.

Incidentally, the Irish natives also told me that the best Guiness is draught
(no surprise there), and that the next best thing is Guiness in the can.  They
also firmly believe that the way a pint is "pulled" has alot to do with how
it tastes.

Looking forward to another Irish foray, I am!  tm

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Date: 21 May 93 11:23:11-0400
From: JOHN.L.HALE at sprint.sprint.com
Subject: Sources of Cornelius Kegs 

I'm sure this has been discussed many times before, but does anyone have any 
good general sources for soda kegs?  Does the retailer who uses these pay a 
deposit on them?  If so I might be able to talk some user out of some empties. 
My local homebrew store has them for $20 each, but I thought I would try the 
low cost route first.  Any suggestions would be appreciated.

BTW: has anyone tried the closed system pressurized fermentation method that 
Teri Fahrendorf wrote about in the 1992 special issue of Zymurgy?



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Date: Fri, 21 May 93 11:05:28 CDT
From: greenbay at vnet.IBM.COM
Subject:  RE:  Equipment/Grolsch Bottles/Labels

Two comments regarding Tom's note (tmr1 at hotlg.att.com).

Grolsch bottles are great, another good similiar bottle is from
Fischer D'Alsace. I like their bitter, but most importantly, they use
22 oz 'Grolsch' bottles. They are very handy, heavy, and have the dark
brown bottles. And that reminds me, I've never seen dark brown Grolsch
bottles, all of mine are green.

Secondly, Tom mentions that he uses Elmer's glue to affix his labels.
I don't know how good/bad that works, but I do know that Glue Sticks
work great. I just put about a half inch strip on each side of the
label and it sticks great. Then, when you clean the bottle, a couple
hours of soaking and the label falls right off. It great.

Anyway, got to run,
Bob


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Date: Fri, 21 May 93 12:25:07 CST  
From: "William A Kitch" <kitchwa at bongo.cc.utexas.edu>
Subject: Evaporative Cooling

Recently read some threads on using evaporative cooling for summertime
brewing. The consensus seemed to be it was worthless in humid areas
like Austin (where I live).  Since none of the posts had any data I
decided to get some.  Here's the first data point.

Setup:  7 gal glass carboy w/5 gal of beer placed in shallow (4" deep)
        pan.  Cotton towel wrapped around carboy and secured w/diaper
        pin (my son helps out around the brewery).  Towel is soaked
        w/water every other day or so.  About 1/2" water is kept in
        pan;  capillary action keeps the lower 2/3 of the towel wet
        but the top 1/3 will dry out if it isn't rewet every other day
        or so.  No fan or force ventilation around carboy.

Data:   House is airconditioned.  Average temperatures in brewery (aka
        den).  Dry-bulb, 75 F
               Wet-bulb, 66 F (measured w/old fashioned sling psychorometer)
                     Which from standard psychrometric tables yields a
                     relative humidity of 62%.
               Beer in carboy, 69 F

So w/a passive evaporative system (no fan or force air around carboy)
I got about 2/3 of the wet-bulb temperature depression.  If a fan is
used to blow air around the carboy I don't see any reason one could
not reach the wet bulb temp in the carboy (my next step).

For those who think you have to live in Albuquerque to have effective
evaporative cooling, take a look at the following truncated psychometric
table.

Dry-Bulb
Temp F  |    Wet-Bulb Depression, F
  \/    |   5    6    7    8    9    10 |
        |-------------------------------|
  60    |  73   68   63   58   53    48 |-\
  65    |  75   70   66   61   56    52 | |
  70    |  77   72   68   64   59    55 | |  <- Relative Humidity (RH)
  75    |  78   74   79   66   62    58 | |
  80    |  79   75   72   68   64    61 |-/

Note that for ambient temps of 70 - 80 F:
 RH of 70 to 80% allows wet-bulb temps 6 to 8 F below dry-bulb
 RH of 60 to 70% allows wet-bulb temps 8 to 10 F below dry-bulb
Or if your basement is at 60 F w/73% RH you should be able to reach
55 F--getting down to lager temps!

So let's quit guessing and get some more data points!

WAK
|- William A Kitch                          (512) 471-4929 -|
|- Geotechnical Engineering                                -|
|- ECJ 9.227                                               -|
|- Univ of Texas at Austin, TX 78712-1076                  -|

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Date: Fri, 21 May 93 13:00:45 EDT
From: Lee=A.=Menegoni at nectech.com
Subject: Racking off thee trub

Jim DiPlama recently posted and asked about the process I used 
when racking off the trub with particular regard to airation.

Short answer:  I airate as I rack off the trub , which has settled from 4-12
hours, into primary.
I also pitch a large yeast population as starter.
Remember starter size will be determined by the amount of fermentables
used not simply the volume.
 
WARNING*****CAUTION****WARNING*****CAUTION*****WARNING*****CAUTION****
I only use this process in the fall, winter and early spring when
the outside temp is below 55 and the pollen count is extremely low.
I do all my brewing except for the mashing outside.
I also pay careful attention to sanitation. 
WARNING*****CAUTION****WARNING*****CAUTION*****WARNING*****CAUTION****

DISCLAIMER*****DISCLAIMER*****DISCLAIMER******DISCLAIMER*****DISCLAIMER******
This process works for me.
If you don't like this please constructively flame me on the HBD.
If your normal process yields an occasional contaminated batch do not do this.
DISCLAIMER*****DISCLAIMER*****DISCLAIMER******DISCLAIMER*****DISCLAIMER******

I chill the wort to about 45-50F with my immersion chiller.
I then use a sanitized stainless steel frying basket to scoop out
hops and what ever break material it picks up.
I then pour the wort into a sanitized glass carboy, which is on a table taller
than the primary fermenter the wort will be later racked into, and cap.
For ales I move the carboy to my 65 degree basement.
Depending on weather (outside temp) and time of day/night I let the
trub settle for as little as 4 hours or overnite.  The longer I
wait the more compact the trub layer gets and the less wort I "waste".
After the settling period I rack into the primary and airate and pitch.

I then pour the "waste" trub layer into a 2 gallon carboy like bottle which I
topoff with cold tap water.  I have an in line charcoal filter on the tap.
I let this settle for a few hours and rack off the 1/2 gravity starter
wort which I boil and bottle.    
   
When I brew I target 6-6.5 gallons out of the brew pot and plan on losing
a gallon to trub.  My goal is to get 5 gallons into a keg.

For lagers I use the 4 hour or so settle period since I do not want to raise
the wort temp.  For ales I go overnite since I want the wort temp to rise
closer to pitching temp.

Using this method requires strict saniitation.
If your normal process yields an occasional contaminated batch do not do this.

When I began brewing 3 or 4 years ago I found the Miller book a better resource
than Papazian.  I was really turned off by "don't worry", Ostrich don't worry.
Through subscription on HBD I have modified my process over time and no longer
consider myself a " Miller Dividian".    

This rack off the trub thing my be a "momily".  During recent brew pub tours
the brewers mentioned that they would chill, settle for 15 - 30 minutes,
centerfuge and transfer to fermenter.  This would represent some degree of
wort trub separation particularly when they chill into the 30's or low 40's.  

My current understanding of racking off the trub is that one should pitch 
into the chilled wort and rack a few hours later.  This gives the yeast
the opportunity to use some component of the trub which it needs in the
beginning stage of fermentation and not provide the materials that the yeast
uses later in fermentation to produce fusel alcohols.  I tried this but was not
pleased with the lag time, this from a guy who leaves unpitched wort overnite.
I think I left a lot of yeast behind when I racked so I went back to my old
method.  

What do other brewers think and do about trub and why.
Please post to the HBD.


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Date: Fri, 21 May 93 14:29:45 cdt
From: "Knight,Jonathan G" <KNIGHTJ at AC.GRIN.EDU>
Subject: bittering hops


Re: the thread on flavor contributions of different varieties of bittering 
hops, I stumbled onto a combination I really like a couple of years ago and 
repeated it again this year also with yummy results.  Namely, in a pale ale 
type brew, I use BULLION for bittering and CASCADES for aroma.  Keep the 
bittering level around 10-12 HBU, use a full-bodied light extract (or 
whatever that translates to in all-grainese) and dump in maybe 3/4 lb. of 
amber crystal.  This last time I used about 1/2 oz of cascades for finishing 
(I'm doing this from memory) and Wyeast "American" ale yeast.  This brew was 
great after just a week or two of bottle conditioning, and provides a "big" 
flavor with a bracing hop bitterness and aroma.  Yum!

Point is, I haven't gotten quite the same results with other, similar brews 
that used Cascades for finishing (or dry-hopping) and a bittering hop other 
than Bullion.  And, since by general agreement/conventional wisdom/whatever, 
Bullion hops are often referred to as "coarse," it might not spring to mind 
as first choice for a pale ale in the 1042 S.G. range.  However, I like the 
results I've gotten and I plan to try the same thing at some point with an 
I.P.A. where the S.G. is high forties to low fifties.

Bottoms up!

Jonathan Knight
Grinnell, Iowa


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Date: Fri, 21 May 93 14:28 CDT
From: korz at iepubj.att.com
Subject: Re: SScleaning/sanitiation/NA/warmPitch/2ndaries/fruit/p-beer/ads

Dave writes:
>OK, here's a silly question.  I'm using my stainless keg as a cooker, so it'll
>be sterilized by the boil, right?  So, as long as I get it CLEAN, and rinse it
>good, that should be clean enough, right?

Right.  I don't even use soap on mine -- just a non-stick-safe scrubbing
pad (more gentle than a scouring pad) and elbow grease.  The only things
in there are a little scortched malt and some Beerstone -- if it gets really
bad, maybe I'll use a bit of cola (for the acid) or if one of my batches of
pseudo-lambik goes super acetic on me, I'll use it for scrubbing the kettle
(that's what the lambik brewers do!).

>How about the ladle?  I just leave it hanging inside the keg, during the boil,
>so I can stir the wort without worrying about putting a non-sterile instrument
>in it.  Is having it sit in/just above the boiling wort enough to keep it
>from contracting nasties?

Anything that's mechanically clean and spends more than 5 minutes in the
boiling wort or water is going to be sanitary.  However, I still would not
use a wooden spoon on cooled wort even though you used it to stir the boil.

******************
Bob writes:
>I'm also interested in producing an NA beer. One idea I had would be
>to just use crystal malt or some other malt for the flavor and body of
>the beer but not use anything that would contribute fermentable sugars.
>Then you could boil in the hops cool it down, add yeast and priming sugar
>and bottle it. This would be restrictive on flavor, style, and whatnot,
>but would it work?

Nope.  Crystal malt has fermentables in it.  Email to Jack for his NA
beer made by heating regular beer.  I've tasted it and it wasn't too
bad -- not a prize-winner, but not bad.

*******************
Jim writes:
>  It is important that the starter and the wort be about the same
>temperature at pitching time.  I read somewhere (Miller? Noonan?) that
>sudden, severe temperature shock will kill a large percentage of the yeast.

You read it here... in the HBD!

>  In your case Phil, I'd say temperature shock shouldn't be a problem, as
>your starter and wort are about the same temperature.  However, pitching
>lager yeast at 70F will cause elevated levels of diacetyl in the finished
>product.  Pitching when the wort is 45F-50F will sufficiently reduce the
>amount of diacetyl produced during primary fermentation, so that a 1-2
>day diacetyl rest after primary will reduce the diacetyl below threshold
>level.

I agree that the elevated temperature may cause a bit more diacetyl to be
produced, but a bigger problem is with esters.  Remember, this is supposed
to be a lager.  I pitched Wyeast 2308 at 65F and let it sit in a 57F crawl
for 12 hours, then in a 50F cooler for 3-4 days then down to 45 for a few
months (primary and secondary).  The resulting beer was deemed "too fruity
for a bock" by judges I respect highly.  I can't bring myself to entering
as a Porter, although I've been told it's a potential prize-winner.  Only
four bottles left -- think I'll keep them for myself.

***************************
Bryan writes:
>     geotex at engin.umich.edu wrote that he was unsure about the purpose of
>racking to a secondary fermentation container.  If anyone knows, please
>tell us all.  I've been wondering about it for years and have never, ever
>gotten a straight answer.

The reason for it is to get your beer off the trub (hot break, cold break
and dead yeast).  However, I only use 2ndaries for lagers (which will spend
a long time on the trub) and fruit beers (because I need to make more room
for the fruit and because the 2ndary ferment will mean that the beer will
spend longer on the trub than in my standard one-week ale).
>
>I have some questions for all you fruit beer brewers out there:
>     1. How on Earth do you press your fruity wort (to get the juice out
>of the pulp) with any hint of sterility.  I've always wanted to do a fruit
>brew, but I am most afraid of this messy procedure.

Freezing breaks open the fruit juice "sacks" in the fruit.  I only mash
the cherries -- not the raspberries -- freezing turns them to mush anyway.
I use a stainless bowl, sanitized with boiling water and a sanitized potato
masher, bought just for this purpose, sanitized with boiling water and
never washed with soap.

>     2. In yesterday's Wheat Berry beer recipie, would it be a good idea
>to puree the rasperries and blackberries before adding them in order to
>avoid the pressing step?  And would skipping the pressing be OK, or would
>too much juice be left in the cellulose matrix of the fruit?

I theorize that freezing will make enough room for the yeast to get in --
the raspberries that I put in my psuedo-lambik were not mashed and they
have grown very pale in the last 6 months.

>     3. Does anyone out there have a good recipe for a banana beer?  And
>do you have to sterilize a banana before use?  (I'm guessing no!)

Unless it's damaged, I think not.  However, bananas are the wrong consistency
for fermenting -- too pulpy -- I suspect you'll have a very cloudy beer.

>     4. What sorts of yeast leaves a nice banana taste in a beer (a
>regular beer, not a fruit beer)?  Sort of like the Austrian EidelWeiss (is
>that the right beer I'm thinking of?)

Well, Red Star Ale yeast is notorious for making banana esters, but in the
past, has had problems with wild yeast and bacterial contamination.  I've
heard, from a very reputable source, that Red Star has some new products
coming and that they seem to be a big improvement over past products.
Some Weizens are bottled with the primary culture (most are filtered and
then bottled with a lager yeast which tend to be more stable) -- if you
can find out which ones are which, you can culture yeast from the Weizens
that have that ester you like.

********************
Jonathan writes:
>Pardon my ignorance: what is meant by "P-Guinness"?

I think this evolved from the Lambik digest.  It stands for Pseudo-Guinness.
It has been used mostly with pLambik or pKriek or pFramboise in respect for
the appellations (names).  True lambiks are made via spontaneous fermentation
in a small region of Belgium called the Zenne (Senne in French) valley.  We
respect this fact and therefore use p-<name> to distiguish our versions
made with various cultured yeasts and cultured bacterias.

********************
There has been a proliferation of advertisements on the HBD lately.  Could
we please try to keep this forum non-commercial?  I wouldn't mind some free
advertisement too, but I have been resisting the temptation.

Al.

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Date: Fri, 21 May 93 18:06:56 PDT
From: bill at oilsystems.com (Bill Vaughan)
Subject: Sour mash

Jonathan Knight asks about sour mashing--
   I have done numerous batches of sour mash stout; I seem to be hooked on
the stuff.  I'll give you the recipe and procedure I've settled down to over
the last three years, but note that this brew isn't to everyone's taste.

SOURDOUGH STOUT -- mash/extract, makes 10 gallons

MASH: 7# pale malt
      2# barley flakes
      1# rolled oats
      2# wheat flakes
    1.5# roasted barley
    0.5# black patent malt

Mashing procedure:  upward infusion with acid rest and protein
rest, saccharify at 155 deg F.  The acid and protein rests are
really feeble attempts to break down all the gums in the flaked
barley and oats.  Maybe next time I'll try a decoction.
Mash-out at 170 deg F for 5 min or so.

Do not sparge the mash, instead cool it to 95 deg F.

Now add your lactobacillus.  There are several ways to get lacto but
the one I like best is to use good old L. Sanfrancisco, AKA Sourdough
starter.  I make a starter a week in advance by mashing a pound of pale
malt in a quart of water and adding the packaged dry sourdough starter.

Add the starter to the mash at 95 F and stir.  Keep it at that temp until
it begins to ferment.  I do this by putting the mash back in the insulated
box; it holds the heat just fine.  It will take quite a while to begin to
ferment.  When the grain starts to float to the surface and you can begin to
smell it, you can start checking pH.  I like to ferment the mash down to
pH 3.9 for a relatively tart beer or 4.3 for a sweeter brew.  Watch out --
the pH drops FAST at the end of the fermentation.  (This whole thing take
takes about 12 hours, give or take a lot.  If it gets too cool it will slow
down and take forever.  Put a heating pad under your mash kettle in that case.)

When the pH is right, raise the mash to 170 and sparge it out.  That will take
a long time because it is so damn viscous.  One of these days I will lick
the viscosity problem, sooner if anyone has any suggestions.

Since the mash is so acid, I can sparge out as much wort as I want without
ever getting any husk astringency, so I just sparge until I have 12 gallons
of wort.

Now add:  12# amber extract
          14 HBU hops (I like Eroica for this).

Boil down to OG 1.072, cool to pitching temp, pitch Wyeast Irish Ale yeast.
I think it is #1084, but won't swear to it.  (I am playing back this recipe
from memory; I am at work and my notebook is at home.)

I like to let this brew sit on the yeast for about a month at cool temp.
When it is done it should have FG around 1.020, so it is quite strong.  The
acid, alcohol, hops and malt play well against each other.  This is NOT
a session beer but I am quite attached to it.

- --Bill Vaughan

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Date: 21 May 1993 21:20:01 -0400 (EDT)
From: NULL0TROOPER at delphi.com
Subject: fruit, brewing, a sidenote

My apologies for poor routing, but I understand that there has been
a question about sterilizing fruit before adding it to beer.  I've
made a few batches of citrus wines and fruit-based liquors and
would add the following suggestions:
 
1.   blanching the fruit may be sufficient to knock down most
bacteria, and is used in some home canning/freezing methods.
 
2.   for larger fruit, combine hot water and scrubbing before
pitching to a hot wort.  With wine, I use bisulfite after adding
sugar to the must, the day before adding the yeast.  (with oranges 
aging in your living room and an allergy to penicillin this is NOT
optional :(
 
I've found that fermentation often lowers the acidity of a wine
must,  though this should be less pronounced with beers and ales (I
haven't tried it,  yet).  Flavor extraction from fruit can proceed
slowly even at 80 proof - so producing an extract beforehand might
not be a bad idea if you want a pronounced flavor.
 
Bruce
 
             


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Date: Sat, 22 May 1993 00:06:09 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Andrew M. Vota" <avota at liberty.uc.wlu.edu>
Subject: please cancel me for the summe

please cancel my subscription as I will be away from my terminal for the
msummer months...


	Thank you




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Date: Fri, 21 May 93 23:42 CDT
From: akcs.chrisc at vpnet.chi.il.us (chris campanelli)
Subject: Dupage County homebrew mtg

This is another call for all homebrewers in the western suburbs
of Chicago, in and around Dupage County.
 
The first meeting was so way-cool groovy that we think we'll do
it again.  The next meeting will be on Friday, May 28th.  Same
bat time, same bat station: 109 N. Ardmore, Villa Park.  Starts
around 8pm.
 
Yes, it is the Friday of the holiday weekend.  Guess this will
separate the men (and woman) from the pantywaists.

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Date: Sun, 23 May 1993 09:11 EDT
From: Kieran O'Connor <OCONNOR%SNYCORVA.bitnet at CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Subject: Brew Store Employees

A question:  I've been offered a job filling in at a brew store. I
teach high school so Im off for the summer and I would be filling in
for vacation this summer (2 weeks) and then sometimes at night or
weekends for the summer and fall.  Any thoughts on pay? I haven't
worked other than teaching (some might argue that its not work
either ;-)) for quite a while.  Any of you either own a shop--what
would you pay--or work in a shop--what do they pay you?  I figured
maybe 8$/hour. Any thoughts?


Kieran O'Connor

E-Mail Addresses:

Bitnet:  oconnor at snycorva.bitnet
Internet: oconnor at snycorva.cortland.edu

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Date: Sun, 23 May 93 11:15:10 -0600
From: Steve Dempsey <steved at longs.lance.colostate.edu>
Subject: NHC round 1 entries arrived in Denver


Whew!  The unpacking is done in Denver.  We have our work cut out
for us; there were 840 entries logged.  Not counting broken bottles
and other problem entries (about 20 in all), the breakdown by category
is:

1   Barley Wine     32
2   Belgian         47
3   Brown Ale       32
4   English Pale    56
5   American Pale   58
6   Bitters         36
7   Scottish Ale    11
8   Porter          52
9   Strong Ale      15 
10  Stout           56 
11  Bock            48
12  Bavarian Dark   19
13  Dortmund/Export 14
14  Munich Helles   14
15  Classic Pils    48
16  American Lager  23
17  Fest/Marzen     39
18  Alt/Kolsch      22
19  Fruit           26
20  Herb            21
21  Speialty        41
22  Smoke            9
23  Cal. Common     27
24  Wheat           31
25  Trad. Mead      12
26  Flavored Mead   29

We advance only the best three from each category regardless of
how many were entered.  So if you entered in this region, you now
know how much competition you'll have in passing round 1.  Good
luck to all!

There is plenty of room for extra judges.  Judging will be Saturday
and Sunday, June 5-6 at the Wynkoop in Denver.  Two sessions each day
will begin at 9:30am and 1:30pm.  If you want to be involved in judging
and have not contacted me, I need to know by May 25.  Registration is
required for judges and stewards.  People who just show up on the judging
days will make things more complicated for me, and I'd prefer to avoid
the last-minute shuffle.

================================    Engineering Network Services
Steve Dempsey                       Colorado State University
steved at longs.lance.colostate.edu    Fort Collins, CO  80523
================================    +1 303 491 0630(w), 482 1403(h)

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End of HOMEBREW Digest #1147, 05/24/93