FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Rob Gardner, Digest Coordinator


Contents:
  WANTED: Fuller's, Full Sail recipes (Domenick Venezia)
  Papazian Lambic (ROSS)
   (Edward Dotson)
  Re: new beer options in SF (Richard Stueven)
  Pressure/temperature relationship (Keith A. MacNeal HLO1-1/T09 DTN 225-6171  30-Jun-1993 1349)
  Riverside Garage & Brewery (Bruce=Kiley)
  HBD soul-searching (Jonathan G Knight)
  Stainless spigots ("Lee-Paul")
  freezers, maple syrup (Jonathan G Knight)
  Re: Freezer conversion for keg storage (Alan Edwards)
  CO2 Regulator (CCAC-LAD) <dskeldon at PICA.ARMY.MIL>
  One more HBD ad comment... (Gene Zimmerman)
  Homemade Bruheat/HB store in PGH/Advertising in HBD (Jurrasic Engineer)
  Re: Technical/Keg pressures/Flash Ferment/Hoppy IPA (korz)
  Talk Techie! (Gene Zimmerman)
  Legalizing Homebrew (Eric Wade)
  advertising revisited (Garrett Hildebrand)
  Re: Westmalle yeast/Styrian Goldings/DMS/Nitrogen levels? (korz)
  pop bottles (Eric C. Garrison)
  Consultant (Bruce=Kiley)
  Re : Belgian triples (Conn Copas)
  Light (Lovibond) Extract (kstiles)
  kegging and temperature ("Anton Verhulst")
  Defending your cherries (U-E68316-Scott Wisler)
  high-gravity brewing ("JSDAWS1 at PROFSSR")
  Weissbier yeast (/O=vmspfhou/S=dblewis/DD.SITE=JSCPROFS/)
  high gravity brewing (Russ Gelinas)
  Humor-Impaired (Jack Schmidling)
  high-gravity brewing/cherries/CRUSH-OFF (korz)


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----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Jun 1993 10:23:57 -0700 (PDT)
From: Domenick Venezia <venezia at zgi.com>
Subject: WANTED: Fuller's, Full Sail recipes

I'm new to this list and generally new to home brewing, though I have
much experience imbibing.  I'm looking for recipes for two of my favorite
beers, Fuller's Ale, and Full Sail Golden.  There's a Full Sail Amber in
Cat's Meow 2, and although it is an excellent beer (after at least a month
in the bottle) it is pretty far from Full Sail Amber (except the color is
right on).  I would prefer all grain recipes, but I'll certainly take what
I can get.  I'm not sure whether posting your responses (I hope there are
responses) to the list is appropriate or not, but you can always contact me
directly.

So far I'm enjoying the list, though there is considerably more
of it than I had anticipated.  I have noted that a lot of requests
for brewpubs in various locations are posted, and just for the
record, I live in Seattle where there are many excellent brewpubs,
microbreweries, and ale houses.  I would be happy to recommend
some if anyone is traveling through.

Domenick Venezia
ZymoGenetics, Inc.
venezia at zgi.com




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Date: Wed, 30 Jun 1993 13:04 EST
From: ROSS at mscf.med.upenn.edu
Subject: Papazian Lambic

Date sent:  30-JUN-1993 13:03:56 

	I read the appendix concerning Lambic homebrewing in Papizian's new
edition of the Joy of Homebrewing, and it sounded very interesting.  Basically
he suggests warming your dissolved malt extract, pouring into a fermenter,
adding some crushed malted barley (to contribute bacteria), and allowing to
stand overnight causing souring.  The next day you put this back into your
brewpot, and brew as normal.  He suggests fermenting with regular ale yeast
and then adding Brettanomyces lambicus and bruxilles.

	Has anybody actually tried his method.  I've been quite successful
with many of his other methods.  As I only have the time to do extract
brewing, his method sounds interesting.

	Does anybody know of any sources to purchase the lambic cultures?
I know that Alternative Garden Supply (800-444-2837) has Pediococcus 
cervisiae and Brettanomyces lambicus.  They sell for $7.45 each plus
shipping (I don't know how much the shipping costs).  Is this a reasonable
price or can I find a better price elsewhere.

	Also, if I wanted to experiment and try some small batches, how long
can I keep the unused portion of the cultures if kept in a refrigerator.

			--- Andy Ross ---
                    University of Pennsylvania

                    ross at mscf.med.upenn.edu

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Date: Wed, 30 Jun 93 16:53 GMT
From: Edward Dotson <0003963467 at mcimail.com>
Subject: 

UNSUBCRIBE Edward Dotson

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Date: Wed, 30 Jun 1993 10:43:09 -0700
From: Richard Stueven <gak at wrs.com>
Subject: Re: new beer options in SF

Jack Dawson sez:

>On another front, the new owners of the San Francisco Giants obviously
>appreciate good beer, because now in section 15 you can find a stand which
>specializes in micro-brewed beers.  Anchor Steam and Anchor wheat are
>available on draught.  SNPA, Anchor Porter, and Devil's Mountain Railroad
>and Devil's brew are available in the bottle.

I have it on good authority that Gordon Biersch beers will be available
at the new San Jose Arena when it opens in September.

GO Sharks!

have fun
gak
Cow Palace Section 107/H/3&4
Epicenter Section 209

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Date: Wed, 30 Jun 93 13:56:40 EDT
From: Keith A. MacNeal HLO1-1/T09 DTN 225-6171 30-Jun-1993 1349 <macneal at pate.enet.dec.com>
Subject: Pressure/temperature relationship

Someone a couple of issues ago asked what would be the proper pressure to
get the same volume of CO2 at a temperature of 70F.

At the risk of getting technical, there is an easy solution given by the
ideal gas law.  Holding volume and mass constant, the pressure is equal to
the original pressure times the new temperature all divided by the original
temperature.  That is:

P2 = P1*T2/T1

This does not take into account the solubility of the CO2 in the beer, but
it should be close enough for your needs.

Keith MacNeal
Digital Equipment Corp.
Hudson, MA

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Date: Wed, 30 Jun 93 14:23:04 EDT
From: Bruce=Kiley%SIG%SNI%sig at sni-usa.com
Subject: Riverside Garage & Brewery


Over the last few weeks I've seen a number of postings from Chuck Cox   
<chuck at synchro.com> SynchroSystems / Riverside Garage & Brewery - 
Cambridge, Mass.

Does anyone know who or what this is?  Please reply to 
brucek at sig.sni-usa.com

Cheers,

Bruce


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Date: Wed, 30 Jun 93 14:01:28 cdt
From: Jonathan G Knight <KNIGHTJ at GRIN.EDU>
Subject: HBD soul-searching


In response to Martin Lodahl's post on advertising (and the recent discussion 
on same), I find the HBD to be one of the best sources on homebrewing 
techniques, gadgetry, etc, largely because of the sheer amount of information 
as well as the varying backgrounds of the contributors and the give-and-take 
nature of the forum.  I am not myself a terribly advanced brewer, and as such 
I wish to point out that Martin's concern for the new brewers taking HBD as 
gospel (with regard to infomercials etc.) is well worth noting but perhaps 
overemphasized.  From the moment I started reading this forum it was 
perfectly obvious to me that not everyone knew what they were talking about 
(with all due respect, y'all).  I would think it would be absolutely foolish 
to read one post on the HBD about any product and run right out and buy the 
thing.  Personally, I prefer to wait for the same topic to recycle itself two 
or three times (an inevitability here) to consider the subject adequately 
before making any decisions involving the purchasing of equipment.  In the 
meantime, I still make pretty good beer!  Also, I personally don't mind 
having merchants and manufacturers as contributors, as I find their 
perspectives valuable; and I'd rather have a straight-out commercial than an 
insidious thinly-veiled info-mercial, as long as it is done BRIEFLY and IN 
GOOD TASTE.  The taste issue seems to me to be the central one, and many of 
us obviously have differing ideas as to where the boundaries of good taste 
may be; but here I would say that if the digest is to continue to be 
successful, we should continue to be self-policing in this area.  The bottom 
line?  I have to throw my hat in the ring with those who do not favor a "ban" 
on any advertising in the HBD.  At the same time, the "industrialists" among 
us have to understand that they need to make their comments here within the 
boundaries of brevity and good taste, or folks like me may be turned off and 
become quite uncharitable with respect to the leeway given to commercial 
considerations.

Regarding Edward Croft's complaints about overly-technical posts, I have to 
disagree, for reasons similar to those which cause me to be lenient toward 
the commercially-inclined.  It has also been perfectly obvious to me since I 
started reading the digest that there is FAR more information in here than I 
will ever use.  So if some chemists want to get into an arcane discussion I 
don't understand very well, it's O.K. with me.  I can either flip past the 
articles in question, or just scan for the conclusions without wading through 
all the data.  No, I haven't seen anything to make me change my mind about 1/
4 cup chlorine bleach per 5 gallons either, but I am happy that the recent 
discussion has made me re-think that aspect of my technique a bit.  The 
bottom line?  I am damn glad that there are a lot of people reading and 
posting to the HBD who know a lot more than I do!  That's why asking 
questions to the combined wizardry of the HBD can be so fruitful.  If the 
people who know more than I do (PWKMTID?) were to be constrained to talk down 
to my level all the time, what would be the point of their contributing to 
the digest?  They are in it for their own edification as well as mine.

To summarize: for me, the more information in the HBD, the better.  I don't 
care whether the info comes from those with commercial motives or those with 
Ph.D.'s in organic chemistry.  In it's present format and tone, I find I can 
sort out the info I can use pretty well.

Jonathan Knight
Grinnell, Iowa

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Date: 30 Jun 1993 14:58:14 GMT
From: "Lee-Paul" <MSMAIL.LEEP at TSOD.lmig.com>
Subject: Stainless spigots


I want to convert a Stainless steel keg to a boiling vessel. Does anyone
know where I can pick up a stainless steel tap to weld into the bottom?

Private emails would be fine, I will consolidate a re post.



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Date: Wed, 30 Jun 93 14:05:47 cdt
From: Jonathan G Knight <KNIGHTJ at GRIN.EDU>
Subject: freezers, maple syrup


For those of you who have chest-freezers with top-opening designs, how do get 
the full carboys in and out w/o breaking your backs?

  *	*	*	*	*	

There seems to be an abiding interest in maple syrup in the HBD.  I haven't 
done it, but have often thought of priming a light ale with it.  I'm not 
crazy about using large amounts in the boil because of the cost and because 
it seems that such a delicate flavor would be destroyed that way.  Can 
anybody report on how much maple character is imparted by priming, and how 
much syrup to use for this procedure?

Jonathan Knight
Grinnell, Iowa

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Date: Wed, 30 Jun 93 12:21:02 PDT
From: rush at xanadu.llnl.gov (Alan Edwards)
Subject: Re: Freezer conversion for keg storage

Al Richer, in HBD #1171, wrote:

| In my wanderings I've managed to pick up a large upright chest freezer
| for cooling my kegs, as well as eventually becoming a beer cooler.
| Unfortunately for me, the shelves are fixed,as they are actually the
| cooling elements..

I have a friend who was given an upright freezer with fixed shelves
(cooling elements).  What he did was remove the door and build an extension
out of wood and insulation.  It is now about 2.5 times as deep.  The
original shelves in the back of the freezer now hold beer and wine bottles
and kegs and carboys are in the front extension part.  I think he put
one shelf in the middle of the extension so he could have two levels of
kegs and carboys (I only looked in it once).

The original freezer has no trouble keeping the larger volume cool enough
for fermenting (ales and lagers).

Total cost:  $100

 -Alan
 .------------------------------------.
 | Alan Edwards: rush at xanadu.llnl.gov |      Member: The Hoppy Cappers
 |     or: Alan-Edwards at llnl.gov      |      homebrew club, Modesto, CA
 `------------------------------------'

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Date:     Wed, 30 Jun 93 15:20:27 EDT
From: "David C. Skeldon" (CCAC-LAD) <dskeldon at PICA.ARMY.MIL>
Subject:  CO2 Regulator

I'm currently setting up a kegging system for my beer and I was wondering if 
there was any reason why I can't use my O2 regulator from my oxy/acetylene
setup. If threads are the only problem then I could come up with an adapter
but I don't know if there is any difference in the regulator itself.

I was also wondering how long a 5 lb CO2 bottle lasts. I picked up a catalog 
from superior and there was quite an array of different size bottles.


Thanks for all of the tips/suggestions/help that comes from this forum.



Dave Skeldon: Owner, Operator, and Brewmeister of Wooddale Brewing Co.
(I'm really just a homebrewer with a fantasy)
(and a label for my bottles)

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Date: Wed, 30 Jun 93 14:26:30 CDT
From: Gene Zimmerman <ezimmerm at hp.uwsuper.edu>
Subject: One more HBD ad comment...

Salutations!
     I agree with Martin's Wed. posting about ads on the HBD. I further
suggest anyone caught advertising here have their heads put through 
Phil's Malt Mill. Perhaps we could enter the evil doer in that "Crush
Off" Or, better yet, we could get that guy from HopTech to give him 
a good talking to.

Tounge in cheek commentary by,   
Gene in Duluth (soon to be Laramie)



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Date: Wed, 30 Jun 93 12:36:53 PDT
From: Jurrasic Engineer <fecich at csoa1.enet.dec.com>
Subject: Homemade Bruheat/HB store in PGH/Advertising in HBD

  I'm looking for suggestions from anyone who has tried to make a home-made
'Bru-heat' type mash-tun. I've located the parts (cooler, 1KW element,
thermostat), but I still have a few questions....
>Should the heating element be separated from the grain with screen?
>I will place the thermostat near the element, but will there be a possibility
 of wide temperature variations in the grain? 
>Should I include some method of mixing/stirring the grain as I mash?
 Thanks in advance for any suggestions or recommendations.

 
   Also, there was a recent HBD post about someone opening a new HB store
in the Pittsburgh area. I lost your address, please contact me at
fecich at csoa1.enet.dec.com or fecich at pfsvax.enet.dec.com

  Re: advertising in the HBD.... I'm always looking for new sources of
Homebrew type stuff. Maybe the owners of the HBD mailing list could allow
a once-a-month 'advertising only' issue of the digest. This way people
like me could see info on new products/sales/etc, and others could simply
delete the whole issue. Oh well, its only a suggestion.....

Larry Fecich
DEC Customer Service
Pittsburgh,PA
   

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Date: Wed, 30 Jun 93 14:24 CDT
From: korz at iepubj.att.com
Subject: Re: Technical/Keg pressures/Flash Ferment/Hoppy IPA

Edward writes:
>Why so technical? I get HBD to get ideas on new brews, hear about taste tests,
>and get other peoples ideas on how to improve the process. What I have seen 
>lately is more of a chemistry class on the properties of idophors(?) and 
>chlorine. I can see relating the impact some of the chemicals have on our

I personally enjoy all types of posts from the most basic beginner questions
to the yeast metabolic pathway posts.  Restricting posts to only practical
information (i.e. excluding theoretical discussions or the science of brewing)
would be a great loss to most of us.  Some beginners will always be overwhelmed
by highly technical discussions and some veterans will always be bored by
questions like "why should I aerate my wort?"  However, unless we continue
to cater to both beginners and experts:

1. we'll lose the experts who answer the beginner and intermediate questions, &

2. we'll lose the beginners who will be tomorrow's experts.

>how or why. Why don't the chemistry majors come up with the proper amounts 
>between them and then post the summary. I want to hear more about using wheat

This is what should be done in all cases of high-tech disagreement.  As soon
as we see an issue getting to be debated on the digest, let's take the issue
off-line, debate via email, come up with a resolution and then post that.

>bases for fruit beers, or the proper way to prepare jalepenos for chili beer.
>I want to hear about the new mini-keg systems, and yes even malt mills. Though,
>we could lighten up a little with the advertising and sniping. 

All one needs to do is ask.  If anyone wants to hear more about a particular
subject, just post a question -- someone's bound to have some info.

************************

BrewerBob writes:

>I think you may have two problems. The reason for the foam may be  too high a
>dispensing pressure into too small a tube. A 1/4 inch ID tube will cause a
>loss of 

Yes, but I think you have it backwards.  If the beer is foaming, then either
the beer is overcarbonated, or there is too much pressure when the beer
comes out of the tap -- you therefore need to INCREASE the pressure
loss through the tube.  Either increase the length of the hose or
decrease the inside diameter.  A very good writeup on this whole subject
is in the 1992 AHA National Competition Transcripts by Dave Miller.
Just to summarize his article, the proper way to design a kegging system
is:

1. choose your beer temperature and the amount of carbonation you want,

2. read the proper CO2 pressure from the table in the article or from HBD
backisssues,

3. account for pressure drops across valves and set your CO2 regulator
accordingly,

4. subtract the losses for faucets and towers from the keg pressure,

5. subtract the losses for keg-to-faucet head (the height difference),

6. subtract the losses for altitude (see HBD backissues), and finally

7. determine the proper size and length of hose so the total loss through
the liquid line is equal to the keg pressure.

Another alternative is to do steps 1, 2 and 3 above and then use any
hose length and diameter you want, but add an adjustable restriction in
the liquid line (e.g. an plastic pinch clamp), near the keg, and use
that to create the proper amount of loss in the liquid line.

Regarding force carbonation, you can begin at a higher pressure, but in
eventually, you will need to use the tables to determine what pressure
you need to use for the temperature you've chosen.  Be careful when
you lower the pressure at the gauge (release the pressure in the keg
first) or you will get a lot of foam and some may travel back up your
CO2 line towards the regulator.

*********************
Raj writes:
>I am working on a Cherries in the Snow Ale from "The New complete
>joy of homebrewing"  I used a Brewer's Choice german ale liquid
>yeast, and after three days of initial fermentation I have moved
>it to a secondary fermenter.  After that time, the brewing
>activity has decreased significantly.  Could the yeast be dead? 
>Should I add more yeast?  Should I wait more?  It was pretty hot
>(around 90 degrees) all three days, could that have killed the
>yeast?  

At 90F, Wyeast #1007, German Ale, would probably have completed
fermenting an average-gravity wort batch, which CITSnow is.  3 days
is not an uncommon fermentation time for such a warm temperature.
If you can, try to use a lower temperature since the likelyhood
of off-flavors is increased as the temperature increases.  90F
will not kill your yeast unless it is a sudden increase from, say,
50F.  By the way, a quick, violent fermentation has been called
a "Flash Ferment."

*********************************
Ed writes:
>At the recent Del Mar Fair, I overheard one of the judges talking about the
>I.P.A. class;  He was saying that an IPA should be dryhopped to kingdom come,
>so that the first thing that registers in the taster's palate and brain is
>the dryhopping.
>
>My question:  Is this a generally accepted fact?  Or is it just individual
>preference.  I realize that IPA's should be strong and quite aggressively
>hopped, but I didn't know one way or the other about dryhopping.  Anyone?

Every judge has their preferences, but the bottom line should be the
style descriptions for the particular competition.  Most competitions
simply use the AHA guidelines.  To the best of my memory, the AHA guidelines
say that a hop nose is acceptable in an IPA, but not required.  Personally,
I like IPAs with a hop nose (within reason) and if I was judging two beers
that were identical in every other way, I would score the one with hop
nose a bit higher.  In general, I feel that if a style says that hop nose
is acceptable, the beer will score higher if it has a reasonable amount of
hop bouquet.

Al.

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Date: Wed, 30 Jun 93 14:51:17 CDT
From: Gene Zimmerman <ezimmerm at hp.uwsuper.edu>
Subject: Talk Techie!

Salutations!
   I, for one, enjoy the input these scientists {create and share with the
HBD. As an English and Comp Sci major, I don't have near the expertise
to calculate flavor profiles or create/cretique mathamatical formulas
for color. I remember once seeing a study someone did about UV rays being
transmitted through different color glass. The author included a graph!
Great stuff! It is said: Farmers make wine; Engineers make BEER! This is 
not simple sloppy work we are doing here. We are modern day alchemists!
   Yes, I don't understand much of the Brew Techie stuff, but as I make
an attempt to do so I learn more about what I am doing and therefor become
better at my craft. Indeed, most everyone with access to this fourm is 
in some way connected to some kind of technology--often people working
in Universities.
   In short, I like the Brew Techie stuff. Thank you and keep up the good 
work!

Gene 

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Date: Wed, 30 Jun 1993 12:56:13 -0700 (PDT)
From: Eric Wade <ericwade at CLASS.ORG>
Subject: Legalizing Homebrew

In HBD 1171 Dick Dunn asked when (exactly) was homebrewing legalized. 
Although he asked for e-mail replies, I did the research so thought I'd
take the credit;-).

26 United States Code sec.5053(e) reads, in part, "Beer for personal or
family use.-- ... any adult may, without payment of tax, produce beer for
personal or family use and not for sale."  The section goes on to mention
limits (essentially 100gal/person, 200/household).  This was enacted as
part of an excise tax amendment, Public Law 95-458, 92 Stat. 1255,
sec.2(b)(1).  The legislation was signed by President Carter on October
14, 1978 (124 congressional Record 38781).  Although I don't have the
exact time the President signed it, it essentially became effective
retroactively to the first moment of the day he signed the legislation
(see Sutherland, _Statutory Construction_,sec.33.10 and 1 USCA sec.106b,
note 3).

Also in HBD 1171 Edward Croft calls for less technical postings.  While
much of the idophor/chlorine concentration thread was above my head, I
have no objections.  I like to see a variety of information at all levels.
 If I don't want to read about blueberry wheatbeer maybe someone else does.

Finally, I'd like to second Martin Lodahl's comments regarding the
commercial aspects of HBD postings.  There are several contributors who
have a finacial stake in the homebrew market who manage to keep their
postings limited to bettering the process of homebrewing without pushing
their products.  I, who have no financial interest, would feel comfortable
recommending a product if I felt it improved my beer, but I might get a
little squeemish about it if I was a close personal friend of the
producer. 

My $.02 for the day.

Eric Wade, Law Librarian (US Court of Appeals) and Homebrewer
San Francisco



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Date: Wed, 30 Jun 93 12:47:37 PDT
From: mdcsc!gdh at uunet.UU.NET (Garrett Hildebrand)
Subject: advertising revisited

In HBD 1171, Martin Lodahl says,

>Time to offer my own opinions concerning advertising in HBD.
>
>The opinion has been advanced that advertising on HBD is a service,
>that it provides information brewers find useful...

Whoa, pardner! Unless I missed something, the sentiment discussed
was that it was OK to mention products by name, and to share
information about them, perhaps even to announce the availability
of a new product. I don't recall anyone saying that use of the HBD
as a free advertising medium is an OK practice.

> ...argument fails with me is in the fundamental difference between
>information presented in the interest of profit, and information
>presented solely to share something useful or interesting.  Having
>something to gain beyond good beer creates a conflict.

Too true.

>... A poster
>with a commercial interest in the question will find it quite
>difficult not to favor their own solution:  when all you have is a
>hammer, everything looks like a nail.

I agree.

>...  Some posters (Kinney
>Baughman, Glenn Tinseth, Russ Wigglesworth, Darryl Richman and
>others) have handled this extraordinarily well, from my point of
>view, and I read their postings with confidence.  Others leave me
>with the uncomfortable feeling that at least some of their postings
>(and I can't always tell which ones) contain not real information,
>but its counterfeit.

Ok, how about this: allow the ones you like and roast the rest! :)

Garrett         <uunet!mdcsc!gdh>

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Date: Wed, 30 Jun 93 14:26 CDT
From: korz at iepubj.att.com
Subject: Re: Westmalle yeast/Styrian Goldings/DMS/Nitrogen levels?

Jim Busch asked about the possibility of using Westmalle yeast.

Westmalle is bottled with a very unattenuative bottling strain and
not the primary fermentation strain.  It would not be usable for
much else besides bottling.

***********************
Someone else (sorry again) wrote:
>Hops are still under experimentation, but noble hops only.  Saaz,
>        Styr-Goldings, Hallertau.

Styrian Goldings are neither noble nor are they Goldings, actually.
The only three noble hops (this was confirmed from various sources
in the Brewer's Forum) are Hallertauer, Tettnanger and Saaz.  Styrian
Goldings are actually a Slovanian variety of Fuggles.  They are a
distinct hop in every sense from both Fuggles and Goldings, but are
not related to Goldings other than by name.

************************
Another Jim writes:
>  According to George Fix in his article on Belgian malts that appeared
>in Brewing Techniques, the Belgian pilsner malt is low in the precursor
>of DMS (can't remember offhand, SMM?), so this should'nt be a problem,
>especially if you adhere to standard procedures for minimizing DMS.
>  The precursor of DMS is a gas that can be driven off during the boil.
>Use a vigorous boil, and leave the pot at least partly uncovered.  When
>the boil is finished, chill the wort below 140F as quickly as possible.
>A wort chiller is very helpful here.

You are right in every sense except what is driven off (even your memory
has not failed you -- it is SMM).  It's the DMS that's created that is
driven off in the boil and during the vigorous part of the ferment,
although I don't think that either SMM or DMSO (the two compounds that
DMS can come from) are gasses.

************************
Geoff writes:
>Alternatively, someone is inadvertently quoting the Nitrogen content as 
>protein - a plausible error given the correlation. The data I have on Baird's
>wheat malt is that it contains a maximum of 2.2% total Nitrogen. Remarkably
>close to your figures of "1.8 to 2.1". Just speculation though, but maybe
>worth checking.

Yes, indeed.  Is there someone here who can contact Jean-Xavier?  Could you
ask him about this?

Al.

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Date: Wed, 30 Jun 93 21:19:38 EST
From: garrik%pun at sabbagh.com (Eric C. Garrison)
Subject: pop bottles

I have seen postings here and in rec.crafts.brewing that mention using
plastic 2-liter pop bottles for bottling beer instead of regular old
glass bottles.

I bottled one 2 liter bottle worth of my latest, just for an experiment.
If it works out, I may do it again.

My question is, how successful is this?  When you pour out of the bottle,
doesn't all the sediment get kicked up into the beer when you put it
back?  What can you do to avoid this?  Also, doesn't the beer go flat
after resealing like pop would?  I have a pump gizmo that is supposed to
keep pop from going flat (you screw it on instead of the cap and pump
air in to pressurize the bottle).  Is this gizmo necessary?

Eric


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Date: Thu,  1 Jul 93 08:10:55 EDT
From: Bruce=Kiley%SIG%SNI%sig at sni-usa.com
Subject: Consultant

I am in the process of going through the legal issues of opening up a 
microbrewery in the greater Boston area.  Does anyone know of a 
professional consultant I can hire to work with me over the next few 
months?

Please reply to brucek at sig.sni-usa.com


Cheers,


Bruce 

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Date: Thu, 1 Jul 93 14:59:01 BST
From: Conn Copas <C.V.Copas at lut.ac.uk>
Subject: Re : Belgian triples

Belgian triples are not a style I brew myself, but there is an interesting
issue of when to add the sugar, if any. With my wines, I've got into the habit
of adding a concentrated syrup on about day 5 of the ferment. I may be deluding
myself, but I fancy that I get a smoother result that way (ie, fewer byproducts
of fermentation). Of course, these byproducts could be just want you want with
some styles of brew.

- -- 
Conn V Copas
Loughborough University of Technology          tel : +44 509 263171  ext 4164
Computer-Human Interaction Research Centre     fax : +44 509 610815      
Leicestershire  LE11 3TU              e-mail - (Janet):C.V.Copas at uk.ac.lut   
G Britain                                      (Internet):C.V.Copas at lut.ac.uk


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Date: Thu, 1 Jul 93 10:17:10 EDT
From: kstiles at woomera.att.com
Subject: Light (Lovibond) Extract

>>>          I wish to make a beer with the lightest possible color as is
>>>          possible with extract.  
>>>               What suggetions can you give me for both liquid extract
>>>          (preferrably unhopped) and DME?
>>>          TIA
>>>          Andy A
>> 
>>Andy, from my experience and comments from my local supplier, American Eagle 
>>seems to be the lightest extract (both dry and syrup) on the market.  Their 
>>amber DME seems to be the color of M&F et.al.'s light.
>> 
>I seem to recall some HBDers complaining that the American Eagle 
>dry extract product had significant amounts of corn sugar mixed in 
>with the malt.  This would certainly make a light beer, but it may 
>be better to stay with a quality extract, such as M&F or Laaglander, 
>which claims to be all malt.
Yes, I was the one who complained about American Eagle.  But there 
were no follow-ups, so maybe it's just me.  On the other hand,
the yeast starter I used last had SG=1.040 and FG=1.000, or
an amazing cidery 100% apparent attenuation (didn't even need
my calculator for that one).  

 -Kevin Stiles

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Date: Thu, 01 Jul 93 11:09:25 EDT
From: "Anton Verhulst" <verhulst at zk3.dec.com>
Subject: kegging and temperature


Bart Thielges writes:

	"....I don't have enough `fridge space to keep the keg
        upright and cooled down for extended periods.  Will repeated cycling
        between 45F and 80F spoil the flavor ?"

I can't answer the flavor question but I do have a solution for the fridge
space.  I bought a small 1.7 cu. ft. (it's long past time for the U.S. to
go metric) "dorm sized" fridge and a cold plate.  A cold plate is a bunch of
stainless steel tubing buried in about 15 pounds of casted aluminum.  
I keep the keg outside the fridge an have a 1/4" line going into the fridge
which is hooked up to the cold plate.  The out line from the cold plate
is 8 feet of 3/16 tubing attached to a cobra tap mounted on the fridge door.
The beer is cooled on demand.

Why 8 feet of 3/16 tubing?  For a keg to maintain 2.5 volumes of CO2 (medium
carbonation) at room temp requires about 29 psi of pressure. The long tubing
is needed to drop the pressure to the proper dispensing pressure so that you
don't get too much foam. 8 feet drops the pressure by 24 pounds and the cold
plate and the tap drops the rest.

I want to thank John Francisco for his article of a few weeks ago recommending
the use of 3/16 tubing to "gracefully" reduce pressure.  I was skeptical
but admit that it worked better than I could have imagined.  It turned my
glass of mostly foam into a proper glass of beer with a nice head.

Also, thanks to the 10 or so people who supplied me with CO2 saturation tables
when I requested them on HBD.  This is a GREAT forum.

- --Tony Verhulst

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Date: Thu, 1 Jul 93 9:02:06 EDT
From: U-E68316-Scott Wisler <swisler at c0431.ae.ge.com>
Subject: Defending your cherries

My parent's cherry tree bore fruit this year for the first time that I
can remember.  I also eagerly awaited the ripening, thinking of a nice
cherry brew.  I ran into my mom a
couple weeks ago and she told me the tree was picked clean overnight -
not a single cherry left.  She was understandably angry and thought
someone came and took them.  She considered calling the police ( Please
help me officer, someone picked my cherries in the backyard last night
and I'm pretty darn upset about it), but couldn't decide how to phrase
it so she would be taken seriously.  A relative from Michigan said it
was birds and draping the tree with cheescloth would do the trick.  I'm
glad the previous poster decided that 2x4's wasn't such a good idea. 
Sounds like an engineer with tunnel vision - it happens to the best of us.

On another note, regarding forced aeration.  Any of you SCUBA divers out
there might consider that dry, clean, and filtered air in your tank. 
Your low pressure bouyance control inflator attachment might be adapted.
I wouldn't go buy a SCUBA tank to aerate your wort, but if you've got one...


Scott Wisler

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Date: 01 Jul 1993 08:18:08 PST
From: "JSDAWS1 at PROFSSR" <JSDAWS1 at PB1.PacBell.COM>
Subject: high-gravity brewing

high-gravity brewing is, I think, very common to beginning brewers.  For
four years, I brewed 5 gal. batches in a 4 gal SS pot from Costco.  I could
boil up 3.5 gal of wort, but pre-boiled 2 gal. of water and added it to the
fermentor prior to boiling the wort.  My Barleywine is fine recipe in the
current issue of Zymurgy is testiment to the fact that you can brew prerfectly
good beer with this method.  I have freinds who still brew this way (some with
even smaller brewpots) and they are making very drinkable brew.

When I went all-grain, I bought an 8 gal. enameled pot and wouldn't go back.
The old pot now boils mash & sparge water.  The two biggest effects I've
seen from high-gravity boils are increased carmelization and decreased hop
utilization.  But IMHO, high-gravity brewing is a perfectly acceptable way
of getting by with a small brewpot or increasing the batch size without
investing further in equipment.

|    If it's good for ancient druids runnin naked thru the woods      |
|   drinkin strange fermented fluids then it's good enough for me.    |
| JACK DAWSON  -  JSDAWS1  -  415 545-0299  -  CUSTOMER BILLING  (BG) |

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Date: Thu, 1 Jul 93 08:32 PDT
From: /O=vmspfhou/S=dblewis/DD.SITE=JSCPROFS/ at NASAmail.nasa.gov
Subject: Weissbier yeast


***************************** PROFS Note *****************************
 From: DBLEWIS --VMSPFHOU            Date and time  07/01/93 10:35:14
 To: POSTMAN --NASAMAIL

 FROM: Dennis B. Lewis <dblewis at jscprofs.nasa.gov>
 SUBJECT: Weissbier yeast

 I'm looking for a good weissbier yeast and I've seen Weihenstephan #66
 mentioned several times on the digest. Where can I get a slant or packet of
 this yeast? And any other sources of true weissbier yeasts would be greatly
 appreciated. Please e-mail me directly and I'll post a compendium of weissbier
 yeast sources. Send me a description of the yeast profile if you can.

 Dennis B. Lewis  *  (713) 244-7809  *  NASA/JSC/DH6 Payload Ops
 Homebrew, The Final Frontier.


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Date:    Thu, 1 Jul 1993 11:37:48 -0400 (EDT)
From: R_GELINAS at UNHH.UNH.EDU (Russ Gelinas)
Subject: high gravity brewing

  The question I have re. high gravity brewing is whether it is
better to dilute before fermentation or after.  The main difference
as I see it is the effect of high gravity wort on the yeast, moreover
on the yeast by-products.  Maybe I have this wrong, but doesn't
high gravity affect yeast in the same way as high temperature, ie.
increased production of esters, phenols, etc., all those "fruity
and spicy" things?  Another factor is that alcohol level in the
high gravity fermentation may kill the yeast, leaving a high
final gravity.  This may actually be a good thing, as the subsequent
dilution will not result in a beer that is too dry.

  As a data point, my last batch was a high gravity ferment, split
between Belgian ale yeast and Wyeast steam beer yeast.  Both fermented
from 1.060+ down to 1.014.  The Belgian was diluted with .5 gallons
of water at kegging, the steam had 2 gallons added.  Both were very
favorably received.  I think I posted the recipe in the HBD a week or
2 ago.

Russ Gelinas
Experimental Space Physics/Ocean Process Analysis Lab
University of New Hampshire, Durham, USA

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Date: Thu, 1 Jul 93 13:16 CDT
From: arf at genesis.mcs.com (Jack Schmidling)
Subject: Humor-Impaired

 
 >From: Kinney Baughman <BAUGHMANKR at conrad.appstate.edu>
 
 >> Hmm...  Wasn't planning on going to Portland.  Hate to make the trip just 
 to  keep him honest.  Any volunteers to take a brand new MM for the GREAT
  CRUSH-OFF?
 
 >I'll try not to fall into the camp of the humor-impaired here but the
 casual reader and, I'm sure Mr. Listerman, would take offense at the
 insinuation that Dan is a dishonest person. 
 
 I humbly suggest that you didn't try very hard.  Quite the contrary, you 
 turned a humerous comment into an offensive one.  You got into Listerman's 
 head and you are telling others how they should interpret my words.
 
 >This makes two such swipes at Dan in as many weeks.  And since he isn't here 
 to defend himself, don't you think we can refrain from comments like this?
 
 Listerman is well represented by his friend who did indeed start the 
 discussion.   Furthermore, he is publishing data that misrepresents my 
 product and I will "swipe" at it everytime I see it.
 
 >This endless harping, hyping, and mentioning of one's own products to keep
 threads running ad nauseum is in poor taste, to say the least.
 
 I suggest a little introspection on your above comments would be appropriate 
 here.  Up to this point, it has been a technical discussion and you have 
 turned it into an ad hominem attack.  Sort of like moving out after voting 
 the county dry.
 
 You certainly display will power by not jumping in with your Brew Heat when 
 you could with justification but that does not give you the right to be 
 unreasonable.  Furthermore, if you were really concerned about "threads 
 running ad nauseum", you should have tried email instead of forcing me to 
 respond in public.
 
 js
 

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Date: Thu, 1 Jul 93 13:46 CDT
From: korz at iepubj.att.com
Subject: high-gravity brewing/cherries/CRUSH-OFF

Glenn writes:
>Jim Busch brings up an interesting topic:  High Gravity brewing.
>
>One concern that the big boys have is deareating(sp?) the water before
>adding it to the beer but this is because they are adding the water at the
>end of the process instead of adding it to the fermenter.

Yes, Glenn, but you didn't mention how to do this... the easiest way is
to boil and cool the water and then siphon it around as if it was beer
(so you don't re-introduce the O2 you boiled out).

******************************
Elaine writes:

>I wanted to try making some cherry stout, but because I am unsure if I
>will really like the flavor (I have never tried any, it just sounds good)
>and because fresh cherries down here in Georgia are so expensive, I want
>to just make half a batch (3 GALS). My secondary fermenter is 6 gals and my
>question is, will having that large air space be a problem?
>Does anybody have an opinion about using fresh cherries versus canned ones?

I used canned cherries once and there was no aroma left in them.  I think
that fresh is the way to go.  By the way, to make 15 gallons of raspberry/
cherry beer, I made up 10 gallons of light ale and then added 5 lbs of
blanched frozen cherries and 5 lbs of blanched frozen raspberries into
each of three 5 gallon fermenters.  I then siphoned 3.3 gallons of the
light ale into the three fermenters.  USE A 1.25" BLOWOFF TUBE OR YOU
WILL HAVE AN EXPLOSION THAT IS NOT VERY PRETTY (RED GUNK ON THE CEILING)!
Incedentally, raspberries are much more flavorful than cherries and the
cherry flavor was not really noticable.  13# of cherries in a 5 gallon
fermenter is what I used for my pKriek.  So for cherries, I recommend
about 3# per gallon of base beer and for raspberries, about 2# per gallon
of base beer.

>> Hmm...  Wasn't planning on going to Portland.  Hate to make the trip just to
>> keep him honest.  Any volunteers to take a brand new MM for the GREAT
>> CRUSH-OFF?
>
>I'll try not to fall into the camp of the humor-impaired here but the 
>casual reader and, I'm sure Mr. Listerman, would take offense at the 
>insinuation that Dan is a dishonest person.  This makes two such 
>swipes at Dan in as many weeks.  And since he isn't here to defend 
>himself, don't you think we can refrain from comments like this?

I never thought I'd be disagreeing with Kinney and defending Jack, but
I think that Dan took the first swipe at Jack when he started distributing
a test that compares the Corona with the MaltMill and the Philmill.
In the test, Dan uses a non-adjustable MaltMill and the results appear
to show the MaltMill as being about par with the Corona and the Philmill
about par with a textbook crush.  I don't think that Jack literally meant
to say Dan was dishonest.  I've spoken with both Dan and Jack about each
other's mills and there is definately a rivalry going.  The good part is
that the consumer will be the ultimate victor in this battle -- more
competition means either lower prices or better quality products or both.

[By the way, screen tests don't tell the whole story -- they don't measure
how much pulverized husk material is in the flour.]

Al.

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End of HOMEBREW Digest #1174, 07/05/93