FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Rob Gardner, Digest Coordinator


Contents:
  Specialty Products Intl. part 2 of 4 (korz)
  sanitzng lids/warm kegs/reconditioned kegs/corrctn/2nd-aries/hop bags/frmntr scum (korz)
  Cleaning kegs (Kinney Baughman)
  Got a recipe for a Duval approximation, anyone? (timborn)
  hops storage (Jonathan G Knight)
  zymurgy article ("Elizabeth Gold, zymurgy/Brewers")
  large vs. small scale brewing (Tom McCollough)
  Small Batch too much air? NO! (Gene Zimmerman)
  Hop bags. racking tips (Mark Garetz)
  Advertising (ulrich)
  Mash Question, Crazy Grain Mill Idea (Mark Garetz)
  Jim Koch???  //  Houston brewpubs (Terry Mcguire)
  Big brewers & real beer ("Westemeier*, Ed")
  Orange peel in Belgian brewing (Phillip Seitz)
  In defense of Jim Koch (Jim Busch)
  Brew shops and pubs in Baltimore ("Alon Ben-Shmuel, EUCS, X 6681")
  High gravity brewing (SCHREMPP_MIKE/HP4200_42)
  vanilla and cardamom (RON)
  re: Electrim Bin (Josh Grosse)
  Bringing beer into Canada (Josh Grosse)
  Re: Blueberries, sparge setups ( Neil Mager )
  Re: Lauter Tun Manifold (Lynn Kerby)
  plastics and forced carbonation (Paul Gibbs)


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----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 1 Jul 93 13:54 CDT
From: korz at iepubj.att.com
Subject: Specialty Products Intl. part 2 of 4

This is part 2 of my review of "Home Beermakers Guide" by Leigh P. Beadle.


Pg6 INGREDIENTS:
"The beer is made from six basic ingredients: water, malted barley, brewers
corn syrup, bops, sugar and yeast."

Hmmm?  I guess Leigh hasn't heard of Reinheitsgebot (or even
Rheinheitsgebot ;^).  The fact is that brewer's corn syrup is an adjunct
which is quite a bit cheaper than malt extract ($0.74/lb for dextrose versus
$1.77/lb to $3/lb for 100% malt extract).  Some brewers, most notably the
Belgians, use it to make high-alcohol beers without excessive body.  An
all-malt beer with the alcohol level of Scaldis (Bush) would be like
10w40 motor oil!  No, I'm afraid that in this case, it's just to lower
the price and raise the profit margin.  Excessive corn or cane sugar in 
a beer will make the beer taste cidery.

"Brewers corn syrup gives body and alcohol and aids in head and CO2 retention."

Typical dextrose-based corn syrup is 100% fermentable (it's all glucose) and 
thus will only add alcohol and a cidery flavor.  It will actually reduce
body and reduce head retention.  I've never heard of CO2 retention -- perhaps
something to do with flatulence.  If the syrup does include some dextrins,
it will increase body and head retention, but I would venture to guess that
production of this type of syrup would be more expensive that malt extract
production and thus plain dextrose is probably what is used.

"SUPERBRAU INGREDIENT MIX    The malted barley, brewers corn syrup and hops
are already blended in the correct proportions in the 3.1 lb can for a well
balanced beer.  The unique feature of this mix is that you can vary the
flavor to exactly your own taste in beer.  To do this, you simply extend the
boil in Step 1 beyond the standard 2 minutes.  A two minute boil will give
the flavor of an American premium beer.  If you prefer a more European
flavor, I recommend a high boil for 10 minutes (watch for boil-over)."

Wow!  What a concept?!  Seriously, a two minute boil will not give the
wort time to isomerize the hops (yes, those lumps in the syrup are hops!),
boil off any chlorine in your boil water or coagulate proteins, which
can result in hazy beer.  I also suspect that they are Chinook hop pellets
because that is the only hop pellet that they sell.  Chinook hops have
been reported here in HBD and other forums as having a harsh bitterness
and flavor.

"SUGAR   Note that the can mentions the use of either corn or cane sugar.
Both give the exact same result so use ordinary cane sugar.  It is cheaper
and readily available.  (For a low alcohol beer of 2%, simply leave out
the 2 pounds of sugar in Step 1."

Note also, that in addition to the corn syrup in the can, your are also
instructed to add another 2 lbs of cane sugar.  I would venture to guess
that this brings the maltose level of your wort well below 50%.  I would
also suspect that at this high a level of corn products, the yeast may
have some nutritional trouble with this wort.

Stay tuned...
Al.

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Date: Thu, 1 Jul 93 13:51 CDT
From: korz at iepubj.att.com
Subject: sanitzng lids/warm kegs/reconditioned kegs/corrctn/2nd-aries/hop bags/frmntr scum

Bart writes:
>Here's a few of questions for the experts :
>
>1) I haven't been able to find a good way to immerse my fermeter lid (a 
>	5 gallon white plastic bucket with snap on lid) in the sanitizing
>	solution.  I can distort the bucket and jam the lid in part way,

I have a sponge set aside for just sanitizing my fermenter lid when I use
the plastic fermenter.  With a rubber glove on, I use the sponge to
sponge-down the lid.  I do this for about 5 minutes then rinse.  Actually,
if you don't overfill your fermenter the kraeusen will not even reach the
lid and if you keep the lid clean, you don't really need to do have it
as sanitized as if it was going to be in contact with the beer.

>2) I've been kegging my beer (too lazy to clean bottles :-).  So far, the 
                          ...
>	upright and cooled down for extended periods.  Will repeated cycling
>	between 45F and 80F spoil the flavor ?  I'm not really concerned
>	about any visual effects, only taste.

The temperature changes are not really the problem once the beer is
carbonated, but at higher temperatures, the yeast autolyse faster and you 
may get yeasty or sulphury flavors.

>3) I bought a used and dirty Cornelius keg.  I scrubbed the interior out as
>	well as I could.  Now, I'm worried whether there might be built up
>	crud in the feeder tube or the hose fittings.  Would you recommend
>	disassembly and cleaning ?  I've circulated sanitizing solution
>	through all of these parts.

I recommend replacing all the rubber in the keg.  Most have 7 rubber parts:
the BIG O-RING, the two poppets, the two small o-rings you see on the
outside and the two o-rings that slip over the two gas and liquid tubes
and sit between the flare on the tubes and the keg (actually, the bottom
half of the connector bodies).  Oh yes, and I recommend also replacing
(if you can) the over-pressure saftey valve.  It has a rubber gasket also.

****************************
I wrote:
>Well, I doubt even the beginners on the HBD can see what's wrong with
       ^^^^^^^
This should have been "I'll bet."

****************************
Michael writes:
>fermentor.  Do you think siphoning into a secondary fermentor would
>improve the flavor?

For an ale, I would say no.  They spend so little time in the fermenter,
that the benefits of a secondary are outweighed by increased risk of
infection (especially in the summer) and aeration.

>Should I use a hop bag for the pellets?

I do, but then I also add 10% to Ragers numbers because of it.  I add another
10% if I use pellets or plugs.

>  Which reminds me, someone posted a question recently about shoving the
>flotsam back down into the wort.  After a week of fermentation I

I recommend against this.  Either Conn or Goeff (sorry, forgot who)
collected some of this scum and checked to see if it was soluble in
water with (I believe) a little bit of ethanol.  The verdict was that
it was not soluble.  I'm quite sure it's mostly hop bits and hop resins
that were extracted from the hops, but did not become soluble.

Al.

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Date: Thu, 01 Jul 1993 11:42:22 -0400 (EDT)
From: Kinney Baughman <BAUGHMANKR at conrad.appstate.edu>
Subject: Cleaning kegs

Bart sez:

>3) I bought a used and dirty Cornelius keg.  I scrubbed the interior out as
>        well as I could.  Now, I'm worried whether there might be built up
>        crud in the feeder tube or the hose fittings.  Would you recommend
>        disassembly and cleaning ?  I've circulated sanitizing solution
>        through all of these parts.

I'm one of the you-can't-be-too-careful-when-it-comes-to-cleaning-old-kegs
kinds of guys.  One of the results of the great o-ring debate was that
sometimes you get burned with old o-rings and sometimes you don't, 
depending on whether that old keg had sprite or rootbeer/coke in it.  If 
you don't know, toss all the rubber parts and rebuild to be safe.

You DEFINITELY need to disassemble and clean.  Personally, I've found that
nothing beats boiling up 5 gallons of a hot B-Brite solution, pouring it
into the keg and letting it soak.  After filling the keg, press the little
valve on the liquid side of the keg and the sterilant solution will fill
the dip-tube and clean it, too.  If you don't, the dip tube won't get 
cleaned and that COULD be very bad for your beer.

Most homebrew supply shops carry rebuild kits.  Alternative Beverage in
Charlotte, NC does for sure.  1-800-365-2739.  And I'd imagine Al does.
Email him at: korz at iepubj.att.com

- ----------------------------------------------------------------------
  Kinney Baughman                    |       Beer is my business and
  baughmankr at conrad.appstate.edu     |       I'm late for work.
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------


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Date: Thu, 1 Jul 93 15:50 CDT
From: timborn at ihlpb.att.com
Subject:  Got a recipe for a Duval approximation, anyone?

From: ihlpb!timborn
Postmark: Your official 'out of the box thinker'
Date: Thu Jul 1 15:42:49 1993 IH
To: homebrew at hpfcmi.fc.hp.com
Subject: Got a recipe for a Duval approximation, anyone?

A Belgian beer imported to the states called Duval (trans.
'devil'?) has always caught my tastebuds just right.
I checked my notebooks/cookbooks and the Cat's Meow, but I
didn't stumble across anything that claimed to approximate
this one.  

How does one go about trying to duplicate a given beer?
I don't think my tastebuds are in the league where I can
hoist a class and then pencil a recipe.  How about you?
Have any of you either found a recipe for a Duval-clone or
created one and stashed it away in your notebook? 

"Enquiring minds want to know."

Best,
 -tim
t.born at att.com

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Date: Thu, 1 Jul 93 16:45:35 cdt
From: Jonathan G Knight <KNIGHTJ at GRIN.EDU>
Subject: hops storage


Wizards of Wort:

I plan to try using more whole hops in the near future.  I have read the info 
in the hops catalogues of Glenn Tinseth and "Mark from HopTech" - really good 
info in there, by the way, thanks guys! - and I am beginning, sadly to 
*worry* about storage.  I have the freezer space, so temperature is not a 
problem.  Oxygen, on the other hand, is.  One of these gentlemen recommends 
storing unused whole hops in a CO2-purged mason jar; the other recommends 
"investing" in a vacuum-sealer.

I have neither CO2-capability nor a vacuum sealer.  I know CO2 systems are 
pretty expensive, but I don't know a thing about vacuum sealers.  Can anybody 
enlighten me?  I really don't want to sink a lot of dough into new equipment 
right now.  If I plan on using the hops all up within a short period of time 
will this be o.k.?  How long can they sit in a freezer in a non-O2-free 
environment and still be reasonably fresh?  If I can't count on using them up 
within a short period of time, should I just go with pellets for the longer 
shelf-life?  Please, no pellet-vs.-leaf wars here - that isn't what I'm 
interested in.  Glenn and Mark, if you're listening, I'd love to have you 
clarify the info on storage in your catalogs, and I'd like to hear anyone 
else's $.02 worth as well.

A final question on whole hops: when I used them before I had the devil of a 
time siphoning the cooled wort out without getting all clogged up, unless I 
used bags to contain the hops.  Are bags o.k. or is there some evidence they 
cut down on hop utilization?  If it is preferable not to use bags, what 
tricks do people have for siphoning w/o clogging?

Hmm... seems like I have a lot more questions about brewing when I'm not 
doing any.  Maybe now that several of you have encouraged me to go ahead and 
brew on those cool summer nights, I'll get back to business and stop asking 
so many questions.

"Just Brew It."

Jonathan Knight
Grinnell, Iowa

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Date: 01 Jul 93 19:26:07 EDT
From: "Elizabeth Gold, zymurgy/Brewers" <75250.1351 at CompuServe.COM>
Subject: zymurgy article

As editor-in-chief of zymurgy magazine, I am currently in the final stages of
refining the articles for our 1993 Special Issue.  The theme of this year's
Special is the traditional brewing techniques of England, Germany and America. 
I am currently looking for someone to cover two subjects in the English culture
section:
1  Homebrewing in England -- an overview of what it is that makes this brewing
specifically English.  This could include trends, popularity, styles, etc.,
and
2  English Brewing History -- For the other two cultures, this subject covers
the basic history and includes ingredients, development, style, trends, etc.

I know you all are the experts, so I am turning to you for assistance!  If
you're interested, either send me a note through C$S (75250,1351) or call me at
(303) 447-0816.  Deadline for these articles is the week of July 20 and length
is up to the writers -- I just want the subjects covered.

I look forward to hearing from you!

All the best, Elizabeth Gold

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Date: Thu, 1 Jul 93 17:57:43 -0600
From: lager!wtm at hellgate.utah.edu (Tom McCollough)
Subject: large vs. small scale brewing

In HBD #1171 Mark Garetz writes:

> Forgive me for a bit of a tangent here, but this is kind of like why there
> aren't really any good formulas for predicting bitterness based on all the
> variables.  The reason is that commercial breweries don't change their
> process often, so that is in effect a constant.  They also have a lab to
> measure (and tasting panels to confirm) the actual amount of bitterness
> they're getting for a given hop addition.  They also have the luxury of
> blending batches to correct mistakes and get better consistency.  So their
> "formulas" are based on a lot of trial and error with measurement and
> subsequent adjustment, with the knowledge that their yeast strain,
> fermentation temperature, etc. will all remain constant and can be tightly
> controlled.  So do they care to have a formula that they can plug in lots
> of variables and get a reasonably accurate bitterness calculation?  No. 
> So we don't have one either (yet).

This is such a good observation.  There are many simple, yet
unanswered, questions posed to the HBD.  These are the kinds of
questions that one would think were answered years ago by a brewing
scientist working for a big brewery.  But your observation hits it
right on the nose: the big brewing scientists are busy answering
questions that are more appropriate to "big brewing".  As small scale
brewers, we have quite an opportunity here!

Tom McCollough
wtm at gr.cs.utah.edu

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Date: Thu, 1 Jul 93 20:09:21 CDT
From: Gene Zimmerman <ezimmerm at hp.uwsuper.edu>
Subject: Small Batch too much air? NO!

Salutations!
   Someone wrote in July 2nd's HBD wondering if 3 gal of beer fermenting
in a 6 gal carboy would cause problems. I assume the person was worried
(GASP!) about oxidation. The CO2 produced by the beer is heaver than 
air and will blanket the brew. No need to be concerned. I would 
recommend using a starter batch of yeast to get the fermentation going 
faster. Good luck!

Gene in Duluth (Soon to be Laramie =)


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Date: Thu, 1 Jul 93 18:59:00 PDT
From: Mark Garetz <mgaretz at hoptech.com>
Subject: Hop bags. racking tips


Michael Barre writes (with lots of stuff deleted):

>Should I use a hop bag for the pellets?
>Which reminds me, someone posted a question recently about shoving the
>flotsam back down into the wort.  After a week of fermentation I
>uncovered the wort to scoop some out with my sterilized (boiled for 15
>minutes) Pyrex measuring cup to test the s.g.  At that time I pushed
>most of the scum from the sides of the bucket back into the liquid with
>my sterilized steel spoon.  I don't know if that contributed to my
>problem, but I won't do it again.
>If I use pelletized hops, I will put them in a bag.
>I may or may not use liquid yeast, and may or may not siphon off
>into a secondary fermentor after the fermentation settles down.

First a disclaimer.  Although I do sell hop bags that keep pellet particles
contained, I'm about to *not* recommend them for Michael's usage.

I assume your problem with the hop pellets is the particles getting into your
finished beer and that you want to use a hop bag to prevent this from 
occuring.  While this will certainly do the trick, it will also cause other
"negative" effects.  Most importantly, your hop utilization will suffer 
(meaning that you'll get less bittering power).  Also, there are many 
benefits to be had to the wort by having the hop particles (whole or pellet) 
thrashing around in the wort during the boil (help with protein coagulation 
 - aka the hot break) is the main one.  Sorry I can't give you a number on how 
to adjust your utilization downwards, there are just too many variables, 
which brings me to my next point:  The hop particles will expand quite a bit 
when they get wet, so make sure you don't over-fill the bag while they're 
still dry.  To give you an example, we sell a 4x6" hop bag and we recommend 
only 3/4 of an ounce maximum amount of hop pellets in that bag (which is a 
*lot* smaller than 4x6" when dry).  This amount of hops will expand to fill 
the whole bag.  Utilization will suffer because the wort can't get to the 
hops easily.

Anyway, I recommend you do use a secondary and rack carefully.  The two step
racking process should leave all of the pellet particles in the trub layer on
the bottom.  This is instead of the hop bag.  The hop bags are great for dry
hopping, but I don't like them for the boil.  Also, your racking techniques
will improve with time.  The key is to have a reliable way to suspend the
end of the racking tube just above the trub layer.  I use a rubber stopper
that fits in my carboy with two holes in it:  One for the racking tube and 
the other I use to force CO2 into the carboy (at *low* pressures) to push the 
beer into the secondary (I use a soda keg for the secondary).  If you don't 
have the CO2 around, you still need the second hole to allow your siphon to 
work.  There are these orange carboy caps around that do the same thing,
but make sure they fit your carboy before you buy one (mine didn't!).  You
can also use Kinney Baughman's BrewCap system if you want the cadillac system.  
Lastly, I have had success with the racking tube securely rubber-banded to a 
clothes pin (with some extra rubber bands to make it close tighter) and then 
clip this to carboy neck.  The problem with all of these is that you usually 
can't see the end of the racking tube once it's in the beer.  The answer:  
a ruler.  Measure from the top of the trub layer to the carboy neck's top, 
and then measure your racking tube to figure out where on the tube you'll 
have to line up with neck top.  As the beer gets close to the tube bottom, 
you can usually adjust the tube bottom downwards now that you can see it, so 
err a bit on the high side when setting the tube depth.  BTW, I have found 
the "orange racking tip" thingy to be essentially worthless.  Ditto 
Fermtech's $2 racking tube clothespin.

About the scum:  You're right.  Don't do it again.  This could be responsible
for all of the "off-tastes" in your beer.  The scum has a lot of hop alpha
acids, beta acids and tannins in it, and will also affect your calculations
for utilization if you put it back in the beer (you'll get more bitterness,
but you don't want it, trust me).  If you want a shock, taste some of it.

Liquid yeast:  Yes.  Make the switch.  You won't be sorry.

Mark




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Date: Thu, 1 Jul 1993 19:10:25 -0800
From: ulrich at sfu.ca
Subject: Advertising

 Martin A. Lodahl writes:

>We've learned to expect advertising on the
>more conventional media to be less than completely reliable;  for
>this quality to slip unannounced into this forum compromises the
>credibility of every scrap of information presented here, especially
>for the newer brewers who are less prepared to sort fact from
>factoid, and don't yet know who's selling what.

This sounds like an argument _for_ advertising. Doesn't advertising have
the effect of informing said newer brewers who's selling what and thus
whose postings should be taken with a grain of salt?

Charles Ulrich


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Date: Thu, 1 Jul 93 19:15:35 PDT
From: Mark Garetz <mgaretz at hoptech.com>
Subject: Mash Question, Crazy Grain Mill Idea

Having just made the switch to all-grain about four batches ago, I have a 
question for the more experienced mashers:

I have always adjusted the mineral content of my water "to style" using 
gypsum, epsom salts and sodium chloride.  Since going all grain, I have 
adjusted the mash water and sparge water in proportion to their volume, 
without any regard to their pH - mainly because the pH test strips I bought 
(pHydrion 5-7 range) are junk and I haven't bought any replacements yet.  
Basically I decided not to worry about it.

I have always gotten decent extractions (except my first batch because I 
didn't grind the grain fine enough).  My latest pale ale got around 
32 pts/lb/gal.  I just did another batch, but decided to leave out any 
mineral additions to see if it would make any difference to the taste of the 
beer.  Things proceeded fine but my extraction was down around 28.5 pts.  
Could the higher pH of the water (because I didn't add any gypsum) make that 
big a difference, or was I just lucky before? BTW, I use EBMUD water, which 
is pretty good quality "soft" water and I use a single infusion "picnic 
cooler" mash/lauter tun.  Mash temp for both batches was around 154F, sparge 
temp of 170F.

Grain mill "crazy" thought:

The other day while waiting in an office supply superstore for some copying 
to be completed, I was wandering around and happenned into the "paper 
shredder" section.  One happenned to be at the right height for me to look 
down into its jaws (it was on top of a trash can).  I had always assumed 
these things had blades in them, but they actually have little wheels that 
look like 1/4" wide mini rollers from a malt mill, grooved and all.  The 
spacing between the rollers seemed about "grain width" and I wondered if one 
rigged a suitable hopper if these things could be used as a motorized grain 
mill?  The model I saw had plastic rollers (may not last too long with grain) 
but some of the more expensive models had metal rollers.  The cheapest ones 
were in the $50 range, the most expensive around $100.

Now:  Not wanting to sneak a handful of grain into the office supply store to
try them, does anyone on the Digest own one of these things and be willing to
try some grain and report back?  If it works, this might be a nice already
motorized malt mill for not much money.

(Warned you it was crazy)

Mark

"If architects designed buildings the way programmers wrote programs, a
woodpecker would come along and destroy civilization!"




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Date: Fri, 2 Jul 93 7:28:31 EDT
From: grctechs!tmcguire at grctechs.grci.com (Terry Mcguire)
Subject: Jim Koch???  //  Houston brewpubs

My apologies if you have already beaten this issue into the ground
but I have literally (and figuratively) been out of town.  Why does
Jim Koch have such a bad reputation?  I gather that he likes to sue
people, but I don't have the full story.  I like the beer, although
I have had much better.
Also, can anyone tell me if there are any brewpubs in Houston?  I may
have to spend a month or more down there and I will need some relief
from the heat & humidity.
thanks!

Terry McGuire
tmcguire at grctechs.grci.com



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Date: 2 Jul 1993 08:25:30 U
From: "Westemeier*, Ed" <westemeier at pharos-tech.com>
Subject: Big brewers & real beer

Al K. sez:
> Perhaps the brewmasters and food chemists at Anheuser-Busch have worked
> so hard to remove all traces of beer flavor from their "beer" that they
> have forgotten how to brew real beer.  Actually, the fact that the
> industrial megabrewers are taking notice of beer with flavor is a good
> sign.  All we have to do now is to encourage the good brewers to keep
> giving A-B the finger.

My first reaction was "right on!" but then I had a second thought.  Here
are some data points:

Jim(tm) Koch(tm) and his gang of contract brewers did a truly wondrous
thing for this country.  They made a very high quality beer widely 
available to the mass market.  That's GOOD!

The last time I passed through the Denver area, I drove out to Golden 
and had some fresh Coors Winterfest at the brewery tasting room.  It was
absolutely outstanding.  Even when I see it at my local supermarket, it's
not bad, and that's GOOD.

Miller is apparently trying to do the same thing on a larger scale
with their new Special Reserve Amber (disclaimer:  I haven't had the
opportunity to try it yet, so the jury is still out).  Again, that's
GOOD (at least from the reports I've been seeing).

The last time I heard a statistic, all the microbreweries and all the
brewpubs and all the homebrewers in America put together only made
a small fraction of one percent of the output of the big 3.  They have
nothing to fear from us, and the renewed interest in GOOD beer can
only help the big guys by making their "pasteurized processed beer 
product" more popular.

So far, the big guys haven't done anything to the little guys in
this country except recognize the competition and try to compete
fairly.  Since positive reinforcement generally works better than
negative, maybe we should be telling the big guys how much we appreciate 
their efforts to improve quality.  Saying "I'll buy this new product
you make" rather than "I won't buy this old swill you make" seems like
it would have a greater effect.

And yes, I think it's essential that A-B keep its grubby fists off
 the real Budweiser Budvar brewery!

++ Ed Westemeier   Cincinnati, Ohio   westemeier at delphi.com  ++


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Date: Fri, 2 Jul 93 14:14 GMT
From: Phillip Seitz <0004531571 at mcimail.com>
Subject: Orange peel in Belgian brewing

Steve Stroud's excellent post in Friday's HBD prompted me to write regarding
on ingredient that he mentions: orange peel.

I think the concensus is that brewing Belgian-style beers is tough to do,
and I'm sure that anyone who's seriously worked on this has had more than
their share of disappointments.  I know I have.  It's therefore with some
regret that I must add another complication: there's more than one kind of
orange peel being used in Belgian brewing.

The one we are most familiar with, at least by reputation, is curacao or
bitter orange (the latter term actually being more common).  In its dry
state the peels look like they're made of plaster, and dirty to boot.  The
dried peels are quite stiff, and are more likely to snap than bend.  When
broken they give off a fleeting but enticing aroma of Cointreau, and when
nibbled are noticeably bitter.  Brewers who buy the peels in large quantities
get them in hunks that represent about 1/4 of a single orange's peel.
Bitter orange peel is also available in European herb and spice shops in
smaller chips, and can be bought by the gram.  I have yet to find it here 
in the U.S. (and believe me, I've called just about everywhere), and
usually people don't even know what I'm talking about.  The only people who
do are very experienced cooks, who use the peel for certain Provencal
meat dishes.  I believe these oranges are grown in Spain and Northern
Africa.

The less-known orange is called sweet orange.  In fact, I strongly suspect
that it's not too far from your standard, grocery store orange.  These 
peels come to brewers in spirals, the kind you'd make if you were trying to
peel an orange in a single shot.  These are more orange colored than the
bitter orange, less dry, less aromatic when crumpled, but are also less
bitter and more orange-tasting.

I recently was able to bring back a small supply of each from Belgium.
The guidelines I received from brewers there are to use the bitter orange
in moderation, up to a maximum of 1 gram per liter of finished beer.  I
think the average use is closer to 0.5 grams/liter.  The sweet orange
can be used more liberally.

So, what do these do for your beer?  We're still in the early experimental
stages, but it appear that the sweet orange is what imparts any acutal
"orange" flavor.  On the other hand, the bitter orange gives no orange 
flavor or aroma at all, but if I'm not mistaken does provide a very 
noticeable but mellow bitterness--not herbal at all like hops.  I recently
made a white beer using only the bitter orange--.75 grams per liter to
get its full effects--and found it to be sort of richly bitter but absolutely
lacking in orange character.  I added the zest of two oranges to teh 
secondary.

The bad news is that the bitter orange appears to be impossible to get over
here, although if you can bring some back it will probaby last you quite
a while.  The good news is that if you can't get the sweet orange you
can probably substitue Sunkist zest without losing too much.

Phillip Seitz
PSEITZ at MCIMAIL.COM
Arlington, VA

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Date: Fri, 2 Jul 93 11:02:50 EDT
From: Jim Busch <busch at daacdev1.stx.com>
Subject: In defense of Jim Koch

First of all thanks to some excellent tips on high gravity brewing (esp
D. Richman), and on Tripples.  It is subjects like these that keep craft
brewing interesting and exciting long after one has become "advanced". 

Of note in the discussion is what I believe is a major factor in producing
high gravity beers and diluting them, that is fermenting the product at
the desired OG and not adding water to the finished ferment.  I am not
doubting the experience related on the diluted Pils, but I agree with 
the concept of a cleaner beer if you ferment at the desired OG as opposed
to fermenting and then adding water to the keg. Obviously, if one is 
aiming for more esters, a high gravity ferment will help.

Tripples:  I think the best advice is to use all Pils malt, and 2-4 lbs 
of sugar noble hops and a clean high gravity yeast.  We are currently 
experimenting with LaChouffe so this is a definite possibility.  A test
of Duvel and Westmalle cultures might be in order also.  

In defense of Jim Koch:
Despite the well known negative aspects of the BBC and its relations
to other craft brewers, I want to praise him for building a world class
brewery in Jamaica Plains.  While I have not personnaly visited the site
(yet), a noted brewmaster friend has just returned with rave reviews of the
equipment and dedication of the staff.  Apparently both kettles are fired
allowing full decoction mashing to be done.  The variety of beers produced 
here is enough to make any homebrewer at home.  Apparently a super bock of
some 40% ABV was made and stored in old Jack Daniels Whisky barrels! The
report indicated a distinct "whisky/oak" character in the sample.  The 
brewers are free to experiment and get feedback from the clientel. It is
in this way that some really good recipes are developed and only after 
adequate market tests are then contracted out.  From a pure brewers point
of view (no buisness men around) this is what we need more of in small craft
breweries in the US.  It takes some risks to produce some winners.

Good brewing,
Jim Busch

PS: I am interested in personal experiences with home made and dispensed 
cask conditioned ales.  If anyone is using isinglass and a beer engine, 
email me with details and experiences.  Thanks






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Date: 02 Jul 1993 08:37:46 -0800 (PST)
From: "Alon Ben-Shmuel, EUCS, X 6681" <SHMUEL at CSMC.EDU>
Subject: Brew shops and pubs in Baltimore

I'll be moving to Baltimore next month and wanted to know if anyone in Homebrew
land knew of any Brewshops or Brewpubs in the area.  Please respond to me
directly (no need to waste bandwidth).

thanx in advance,

Alon Ben-Shmuel
shmuel at csmc.edu

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Date: Fri, 2 Jul 93 15:56:00 +0000
From: SCHREMPP_MIKE/HP4200_42 at hp-ptp.ptp.hp.com
Subject: High gravity brewing

All my beers are high gravity brewed.

I'm an all grain brewer without the 10 gallon stainless pot. I have one of those
5 gallon (or is it 33qt?) enameled pots. I mash in a 3 gallon Gott round
insulated picnic drink cooler (can only hold 9 lbs of grain, if I was buying
one rather than using the one I already had, I'd go for the 5 gallon version).
I sparge in the same cooler using a false bottom.

Due to the small size of my mash tun, I tend to have think mashes. My process is
to put all the grain in the cooler, and add mash water to fill it up, stirring
along the way. I almost always do a protein rest, then put it all into my
brew pot to bring it to mash temp. This process lets me maximize the water in
the mash (since I fill up the cooler) and lets me stir the whole thig well (in
the brew pot).

I usually get 28-30 points per pound (a new brew unit, the ppp?), with the
lower rates for high temperature sweet mashes, and high rates for lower temp
drier mashes.

I recirculate til clear, then sparge with lots (note no measurement) of hot
(75-80C) water, and keep going until the brew pot is nearly full of sweet wort.
After the boil, I usually have about 3 - 3.5 gallons of wort which I cool using
a counter flow / ice bath chiller. I top up to 5 gallons in the fermenter.

Due to the limitation of 9 lbs in my mash tun, my OG's tend to be below 1.055,
but at the 3.5 gallon stage they are as high as 1.075. I don't make any
corrections for hop utilization, etc.

I like my beers, so I guess I have the perfect brewing system (BrewPerfect tm?).



Mike Schrempp

If I can't even smell my own bad breath, how can I tell if my beer is bad?

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Date: Fri, 02 Jul 93 15:37
From: RON.admin at admin.creol.ucf.edu (RON)
Subject: vanilla and cardamom


Noticed only a few receipes with reference to their use....

Any expieriences using vanilla (not extract but bean) or 
cardamom seeds or pods ground up.

Will post results of replies later.........

- --
ron at laser.creol.ucf.edu


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Date: Fri, 2 Jul 1993 07:48:25 -0400 (EDT)
From: jdg at cyberspace.org (Josh Grosse)
Subject: re: Electrim Bin

In HBD 1173, Bruce MacDonald complained that he doesn't like the beers he
makes in his Electrim Bin, and complains of an off-flavor.  He wonders also
if temperature control may affect it.

Well, I've bin a Bin use for a couple of years, and have been able to make
beers without detectable flaws in it.  I use a grain bag for mashing and
sparging.  Bruce didn't say if he uses one as well.  If he doesn't, and
he isn't stirring continuously, non-stop, without a break, he can scorch
grain against the heating element.  This may be the cause of the off-flavor.

I don't have problems with temperature control.  I mash in approximately
3 gallons (imperial), regardless of the size of my grain bill.  I stir 
fairly regularly during mashing.  I've stopped using iodine to test my mashes,
and every sugar rest runs for 90 minutes

I've also improved my sparging, which now gives me 34 points / us gallon, by
ensuring that the grain bed is fully compacted in the bag.  I drop the level
of wort way down, untie the grain bag and let it settle on the bottom, watch
my wort slow to a trickle and clear completely.  I then add the wort back in
and add sparge water as needed.  A sparge now takes 2 hours or more.

If your off flavor is "wet cardboard" or "sherry/winey", you're problem may 
be oxidation caused by aeration of the wort when it's still hot.  If you
transfer your wort from an un-grainbagged Bin to a lauter-tun, using the
spigot, and you "pour" into a lauter tun when mashing on the stove, this
difference in procedure could be the source of your problem.

- -----------------------------------------------------------------
Josh Grosse                               jdg at grex.cyberspace.org
                                              Ann Arbor, Michigan

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Date: Thu, 1 Jul 1993 22:19:04 -0400 (EDT)
From: jdg at cyberspace.org (Josh Grosse)
Subject: Bringing beer into Canada

In HBD 1171, Fred Waltman (waltman at bix.com) asked:

>I have a family re-union this summer in Sault Ste. Marie, ONT., and I would
>like to bring some homebrew. Is there any particular problem with importing
>homebrew into Canada or should I bottle it all in old Coors bottles with the
>labels still on <grin>? I would assume that I would have to pay duty just as
>if it is store-bought beer.

This spring I talked to Canadian customs and was told the following:

If it's for your own consumption, and you stay longer than 24 hours, you
can bring 24 12-ounce bottles with you free of import duty.  If you are
bringing it in as a gift, you can expect to pay between C$10 and C$13/case,
depending on value determination.  Store bought beer is easy to value, homebrew
would depend on your declaration of strength, I suppose. (Standard, premium,
super-premium?  Alcohol/vol?  Starting gravity?  Customs officer whim?).

Were I you, I'd call Canadian customs in S.S.M. before going, get the name
and title of the person you talked to, and *bring* that persons name with
you when you go, just in case.  What I was told may have no bearing on what
happens to you at that border (I'd checked with Customs in Windsor).  What-
ever you do, be sure to declare your beer.

- -----------------------------------------------------------------
Josh Grosse                               jdg at grex.cyberspace.org
                                              Ann Arbor, Michigan


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Date: Fri, 2 Jul 93 16:51:31 EDT
From: neilm at juliet.ll.mit.edu ( Neil Mager )
Subject: Re: Blueberries, sparge setups


 > Edward Croft <CROFTE at delphi.com> says:
 > 
 > > Allan Wright's Amber Wheat Beer fruit base in HB1166.  I have been
 > > contemplating a fruit beer, and this may do the trick.  But, Allan,
 > > blueberries in beer?  Let me know how that turns out.
 > 

  Boston Beer Works makes a really good Blueberry ale. They even
  put a few blueberry's in your glass. Great beer on a hot summer night


 > Jeff Benjamin <benji at hpfcbug.fc.hp.com> says:
 >
 > Jim Liddil <JLIDDIL at AZCC.Arizona.EDU> and "Mark S. Nelson" 
 > <mnelson at eis.calstate.edu>, respectively, ask:
 > 
 > > I obtained a straight sided keg from the scrap metal yard this weekend.
 > > Now I want to turn it into a boiler/lauter tun.  Has any one ever
 > > mounted an EasyMasher(TM) on a keg?  What other manifold setups work
 > > well that can be easily removed?
 > 
 > > I'm a kit brewer second in the feild ready for the grain. Please give me
 > > your best advice,  I really would like to know how to construct the best
 > > system.
 > 
 > There are a number of different lautering options:  an easymasher, a
 > slotted copper pipe manifold, a false bottom, a separate double-bucket
 > Zapap-type as described in Papazian.  The subject has been covered at
 > various times here, maybe it's time for a monthly FAQ?  
 > 
 > Anyway, I favor the slotted pipe setup, since it's completely
 > removable, doesn't require you to drill a hole in your pot, and can be
 > disassembled for easy cleaning.  I posted plans in HBD #1099 (Mar 17
 > '93).  The description of the EasyMasher(tm) were originally posted by
 > Jack Schmidling in HBD #754 (Nov 4 '91), and there was a lot of
 > discussion and diagrams during March '93.

I compiled a digest of all grain & mash tun lauter tun designs.
Much of the discussion is included in the digest. You can ftp it
from sierra.

- --
===============================================================================
Neil M. Mager
MIT Lincoln Laboratory       Lexington, MA
  Weather Radar - Group 43

Voice                       (617) 981-4803 (W)
Internet                    neilm at juliet.ll.mit.edu
America On Line             neilmm at aol.com
===============================================================================



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Date: Fri, 2 Jul 93 18:23 PDT
From: lfk at veritas.com (Lynn Kerby)
Subject: Re: Lauter Tun Manifold

>
>I have a question that I hope someone can answer. I am making a manifold for
>my lauter tun with copper pipe in which I will make small cuts with a hacksaw.
>The question I have is do I make the cuts face up or down or does it matter?
>
Just made one myself a couple of batches ago and I am pleased so far.  I made
mine with the cuts facing down, but I suspect that it really doesn't matter
all that much.  I suppose I could turn it over and find out sometime.

Are you making a manifold with tees, endcaps, elbows, etc or just a coil of
3/8" copper tubing with some slots cut in it?  I went whole-hog and build a
manifold from 1/2" hard copper pipe (I think I saw the original idea on the
HBD a few months ago) that uses 4 tees, 2 elbows, 4 endcaps, some reducing
couplings, a vent pipe riser, and a siphon pipe riser.  The vent pipe and
siphon pipe are soft 3/8" copper.  I didn't solder anything, it is all just
press fit with a little crimping/flaring where necessary to make things
snug.

>Also, what are the pro's and con's to a manifold type lauter tun.
>

I don't know what you plan to lauter in, but I have had a minor problem with
establishing and maintaining proper outflow rates.  I do my lautering in my
mash pot (doing a stove-top style step mash) which is a 6 gallon Vollrath
pot.  At mash-out time, I thin the mash a little more with a couple of
quarts of sparge water, then I drop my lautering manifold in and start a
siphon.  I siphon off a quart or two, recirculate it and away I go.  Again,
the only problem has been establishing a siphon and maintaining a suitable
flow rate.  I think I am going to put a ball valve on my siphon hose and see
if that helps any for the next batch.

I suspect that this is a side-effect of my setup, but I don't suck the grain
bed dry anymore.  I don't consider this good or bad, just different.  I have
been getting excellent yeilds with the manifold, the real test will be
trying to sparge a big oatmeal stout.

>Any info would be greatly appreciated.
>
>Thanks,
>
>Don Doyle

Hope this is helpful,

Lynn Kerby
lfk at veritas.com

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Date: Sat, 3 Jul 1993 17:49:23 +0501 (EDT)
From: Paul Gibbs <paulrgb at gibbs.oit.unc.edu>
Subject: plastics and forced carbonation

I've been seeing a lot of hype about plastics (food grade or not food
grade?  does it leach monomer in the presence of alcohol?).  Recently a
brewing buddy of mine has just converted his bottling system to 33 oz
seltzer or gingerale plastic bottles(PETE #1 - recycling code on the
bottom).  These bottles have the following advantages:  20 bottles fit
easily into 2 milk crates, so you can bleach and rinse all at once as a
batch;  20 bottles holds a five gallon batch w/ less work - you can fill
them directly after cleaning/sterilizing, and without removing from the
milk crate to cap just screw the lid on snuggly.  They work like a charm!
Also the way the bottle is shaped traps most of the sediment that starts
to role down at the end of the pour - also if you don't want a 33 oz belt
you can recap for later (half a bottle, or so, is still substantially
carbonated the next day).  
NOW THE BIG NASTY QUESTION - does it leach monomer?  If so, is it a
biohazard - brain/liver/genital toxic?
If anybody out there has a decent knowledge of
polymers/monomers/plasticizers please write back in to help settle the
plastic questions once and for all - it would be great to see a table of
suitable plastics to use with beer. 

Also, I've been thinking about investing in the 5 liter cans (from brew Ha
Ha) - Which I was told are also internally lined with a polymer coating.  
Can these be force carbonated - if so what does it involve? 

by the way this list serve is really well run - I thoroughly enjoy reading
HBD.

Paul Gibbs (dental student - Chapel Hill, NC)
paulrgb at gibbs.oit.unc.edu



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End of HOMEBREW Digest #1175, 07/06/93