FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Rob Gardner, Digest Coordinator


Contents:
  astringency/flat beer/filtering/warm ferment/IPAs (korz)
  body/softeners/Guinness cans/Victory malt/strange taste/partial boil (korz)
  BruHeat Insulation (gorman)
  more on sugar in beer (Bryan L. Gros)
  beers across the world? (Michael P. O'Neill)
  Wheat beer slants (Ed Kesicki)
  The Tumbleweed Report (part 1) (Kinney Baughman)
  DeWolfe-Cosyns distributor? (Dave Gilbert)
  Bartles & James MALT BEVERAGE?? (tony g)
  Irish Moss/overshoot/storing yeast under sucrose/7oz bottles (korz)
  weevils (Chuck Cox)
  ALES (pquint)
  Re : Irish Moss (Conn Copas)
  Barreling Beer (Philip J Difalco)
  U-Brew-It-Here (Pierre Gauvin)
  Re: Parking in Portland (wegeng.henr801c)
  Darkening Extract;  Brewer's Warehouse;  Nitrogen Regs (Glenn Raudins)
  Plastic Fermenters ("/platinum/homes/hethmon/.signature")
  dextrose, hot break (KLIGERMAN)
  RE: Drinking around Lancaster PA (Robert Chizmadia)
  Neuweiler's Stock Ale (Matthew Mitchell)
  Hunter Airstat summary available from me. (David Hinz)
  Hot Break Terminology (Jeff Frane)
  step mashing temperature formula? (CHUCKM)


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----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Jul 93 12:35 CDT
From: korz at iepubj.att.com
Subject: astringency/flat beer/filtering/warm ferment/IPAs

Keith writes (quoting Kinney, who quoted someone else (sorry)):
>>>This might be the source of the confusion.  He also recommends scooping out
>>>the specialty grains just prior to the wort coming to a boil.
>
>>Hmm... The conventional wisdom here is to remove the grains at 170 
>>degrees to avoid leaching tannins into the wort.  Waiting until just 
>>before the boil is too long.
>
>This sounds like a momily to me.  I haven't noticed an astrigency problem with 
>beers I've made to date using this method and I know of several other brewers 
>who use this method with success.

I thought so too on my first few batches, but then a more experienced
brewer pointed out the astringency in my beer.  Upon questioning, it
was traced to my removing the grains when the water came to a boil.
Heck, for my first batch, I boiled them for 60 minutes.  I recall I still
loved the beer, but today, now that my palate is more sensitive I'll bet
I wouldn't enjoy it.

**********************************************

Rich writes:
>Let me start by saying I'm a neophyte in the homebrew
>field. I just bottled my first batch three weeks ago.
>The beer tastes fine other than being somewhat flat. 
>
>Papazian's troubleshooting section came to two conclusions:
>1) I left an excessive amount of sterilant in the bottles or
>2) I'm storing the beer at excessively cool temperatures.

You may also have:

1. not stirred the priming sugar well and some of your bottles may be
overcarbonated (did you first dissolve the sugar in a few cups of water
and boil it to sanitize and dissolve the sugar?), or

2. you may not have used enough priming sugar (1/2 to 3/4 cup corn sugar
for a 5 gallon batch -- or use 3/4 to 1.25 cups of DME),

3. or, you may have brewed such a high-alcohol beer that the yeast is
pooped-out (I once brewed an Imperial Stout with an OG of 1120 -- it
never really carbonated at all -- in retrospect, I should have pitched
a more attenuative yeast once the Wyeast #1028 pooped out at 1050).

>I also read somewhere else in Papazian's book that you should
>leave about an inch of air space in each bottle. I noticed that
>I have more like two inches of air space in each bottle. Could
>this have some effect on the carbonation. It would seem that 
>as I increase the air space in each bottle the carbonation 
>should increase as well.

Yes, too much headspace will give you more carbonation not less.

****************************************
goeff writes:
>I have a question about filtering beer.  Out of curiosity, I just
>made some quasi-czech pilsner at a U-Brew-It-Here place, and they
>of course filter their beer to get that commercial look.
>Why should I filter, or not filter my homebrew?  What would it do
>for my beer?  (by the way, I have chosen not to patronize those
>brew-places again, they charge exhorbitant rates).

The look will change, but the flavor will change also.  A pair of brewers who
have won gobs of awards for their beers (including the Ninkasi Award in 1992), 
Steve and Christina Daniel, are strong proponents for filtering.  When you
filter, you must be aware that you can filter too much -- try Miller Brewing
Company's Amber Ale -- not bad in flavor, but all the body has been filtered
out of it!

>Finally, I would like some information on warm temp brewing.  If
>brewing ales, what are the consquences of fermenting between 18-24
>degrees C ?  My apartment is not air-con. nor do I have a basement (!).
>Is bacterial contam. my main worry, or will I develop some
>interesting, but perhaps 'out of style' flavours?

Bacterial contamination as well as wild yeast and mold (however mold should
not be a problem (unless you've got tons of it in your air) if you watch
aeration (molds are aerobes)) can be problems so watch your sanitation.
Higher temperatures will increase the yeast's production of all kinds of
by-products from esters (fruity flavors and aromas) to phenols to higher
alcohols.  If you use a good, clean yeast, you should not have problems
with phenols and higher alcohols too much.  Some yeasts produce more than
others.  I feel that Wyeast #1056 and #1028 are quite clean.  I believe
that diacetyl production is increased at higher temperatures also, so you
may want to avoid high-diacetyl producers like Wyeast #1084 when you brew
at higher temperatures.

*************************

John writes:
>In a recent discussion on India Pale Ales (IPA's) the assertion was made
>that these are all high gravity ales. Conventional wisdom tells us
>that these ales were brewed at high gravity to allow them to travel well
>(ie. by ship to India), and our US beer competitions persist in defining
>IPA's as medium to high gravity (OG 1050 to 1065). It is interesting to
>observe, however, that in their land of origin IPA's are not in fact high
>gravity ales. Some of the truly outstanding examples of this type which I
>tasted on a recent beer tour of The British Isles include "Palmer's IPA"
>(Dorset, OG 1039, ABV 4.3%), "Robinwood IPA" (Yorkshire, OG 1040, ABV 4.2%),
>"Younger IPA" (Edinburgh, OG 1043, ABV 4.5%)...

I believe that the use of the title India Pale Ale has been misused in
Britain as well as in the US.  I feel that the AHA's definition is closer
to the mark on this particular style than are the commercial examples,
but this is just my opinion.

Al.

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Date: Tue, 13 Jul 93 12:38 CDT
From: korz at iepubj.att.com
Subject: body/softeners/Guinness cans/Victory malt/strange taste/partial boil

Ed writes:
>     I recently got into homebrewing (plan on doing my fifth batch
> this evening).  I have two questions.  The first has to do with body.
> I like my beer "chewy" (or so my wife claims).  None of my beers
> have been as full-bodied as I would like.  How do I increase the body
> of the beer without necessarily increasing the alcohol content?  Can
> I use dextrine malt without mashing it?  What about Lactose?

I've used dextrine malt without mashing it and yes, it will increase body.
Lactose will not do much for body (I feel) but will increase residual
sweetness which can be interpreted as increased body.  Malto-dextrin
powder is available and can increase body and mouthfeel, but I haven't
tried using it yet.  Some extracts will give you a higher final gravity
which will give you that "chewyness" that you seek.  The best extract for
this is Laaglander Dried Malt extract.  Northwestern Malt extract also
tends to finish a bit higher, but not nearly as much as Laaglander.

>     The second question may be due to a related problem.  None of my
> Original Specific Gravities have been as high as I'd expected (given
> similar recipes I've seen)....

>                ....Could it be due to the type of extract I'm using?
> Could it be my water?  (I have a Culligan water softener.)  Could it
> be due to my estimation method?  (I add a little to the SG reading
> for each degree over 60F according to the error estimates Charlie P.
> gives in his book.  I think it is somewhere around 0.003 for each
> degree.  I can't remember because I've got the formula in a
> database cell somewhere.)

It could be that you are not stirring well enough when you top your wort up
with water (see a recent HBD).  Another point I'd like to make is that you
should not use softened water for your brewing.  Water softeners work by
adding salts to the water.  If you have bicarbonate hardness, you can reduce
it by boiling and then pouring off the sediment that forms.  A little more
trouble, yes, but I think your beer will taste better.  Note that a high
carbonate water is perfect for brewing stouts like Guinness!

Leo writes:
>I am sure that this has already been answered but I have been unable to find
>an explanation in previous postings.

Search further back -- about two years ago there was much discussion on this
topic.

>1.  Does the NO2 cartridge in the canned Guinness affect more than just the
>head of the brew?  It seems to me that the canned Guinness is alot smoother
>and less bitter than the traditional bottled stuff.

It's not NO2 and I don't believe there's any nitrogen at all in the cans.
The recipe is different for draft Guinness compared to the bottled version.
Jackson gives the bottled version four stars, but I believe only three for
the draft.  The cans are the draft recipe.  To make a long story short,
the cans work because the plastic bubble squirts beer into the can through
a small opening and makes the beer foam.  Please see late 1991 to early 1992
HBDs for more details.

************************

Jonathan writes:
>And someone else asked this eons ago, but I don't remember seeing an answer 
>posted to the digest.  What is "Victory malt"??  Does it have to be mashed, 
>or can it be steeped like specialty malts?  What characteristics does it 
>impart to the beer?

It is somewhere in color and flavor between Munich and Vienna Malts (at
least that's where Briess Malting puts it on their price sheets) and yes,
it must be mashed.

*********************
Glenn writes:
> I'm kind of new to homebrewing, and need to have a question answered by
>people "in the know." The first few batches I have brewed had something of
>a funny taste to them. COuld this be the result of using an aluminum pot
>for boiling the wort? 

Some say it can, others say it doesn't, but you need to describe the funny
taste more for us to help you -- is it metallic?  can you relate it to
some kind of food?  do you have hard water?  do you use well water?  what
kind of yeast did you use?  is it sour?  Post more details and I'm sure
someone will be able to help you find the source of this flavor.

**************************
JC writes (quoting me):
>>Although I picked JC's post (sorry JC), there are a number of posters who
>>seem to be confused by this "high-gravity" brew thread.  There's a big
>>difference between partial boil (which could also be called high-gravity
>>boil) and high-gravity ferment.  I believe that the original post that
>>started this thread asked about what kind of compensation had to be made
>>for a high-gravity ferment.  Well, a number of brewers have posted that
>>a higher gravity ferment will result in a beer with more esters.  I have
>>found this to be true, but have not tried diluting the resulting beer
>>into a medium-gravity beer.  I think what JC is asking about (as well as
>>a couple of others) is a partial-boil recipe.  One in which, say, 3-gallons
>>of wort are boiled and then this is diluted into a 5-gallon batch in the
>>fermenter.  
>
>You are correct here.  A partial-boil is what I want to do, or, perhaps
>it is better worded at a partial-high-gravity-boil, which is diluted in
>the primary fermenter.
>
>I'm still looking for all-grain recipes that'll allow me to do this.  I've
>done some partial mashes, hence I'm familiar w/ the process to some degree.
>Does one just cut the amount of H20 used during the mash process in half to 
>get a high-gravity wort?  I could probably handle mashing with a full
>grain bill and H20 (1 qt/lb), but my pot would be insufficient to handle the
>grain sparge through my lauter-tun...

Hmmm... I seem to have gotten it all wrong.  It's not a partial boil that you
want.  What you really want to do is to sparge into your kettle till it's
about 3/4 full, then boil that down to where you can add more runoff.  Once
you're done sparging boil this down to about 6 gallons and then add the
boiling hops.  If your pot is too small to handle 6 gallons comfortably, you
can do the boil in two parts, splitting your hops in half.   Many breweries
do this when their fermenters are twice the size of their boilers.  You
don't get a high-gravity wort simply by reducing your mash water in half...
you get one by either just taking the first runnings and making a 1 gallon
or 2 gallon batch (then using the second and third runnings for a smaller
beer) or by taking all the runnings from, say 12 or 15 lbs of malt and then
boiling this all down to 4 or 5 gallons.  A partial boil is an extract
procedure where you boil your extracts with only part of your total water
(compensating for the low hop utilization) and then adding water after the
boil in the fermenter.

Al.

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Date: Tue, 13 Jul 93 13:41:40 EDT
From: gorman at aol.com
Subject: BruHeat Insulation

BruHeat Users/Potential Users:

My first attempt to heat 5 gal. of water in a BruHeat took >1 hr to reach a
boil

I purchased a sheet of 1.5" very dense foam, cut holes for the gauges and
spigot and duct-taped it around the BruHeat.

Next batch took ~30 min to boil.

Also, I'm extract brewing only, but I bet mashing temperatures could be much
more easily maintained and more quickly increased with the insulation.

Bill Gorman

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Date: Tue, 13 Jul 93 10:50:19 PDT
From: bgros at sensitivity.berkeley.edu (Bryan L. Gros)
Subject: more on sugar in beer

I'm trying to find out the constituents or chemistry of different
sugars added to British or Belgian beers.  What I think I need
to determine first, however, is what is the purpose of adding the
sugar?  What are we trying to accomplish?

What is taken as truth about sugar (I think):
  *  Glucose is 100% fermentable and thus adds alcohol and no flavor
  *  Table sugar is sucrose and is mostly fermentable but can add
     a cidery taste if the amount is too much
  *  Brown sugar is sucrose with a little molasses still in it
  *  Turbinado sugar is similar to brown sugar; it is table sugar that
     has not been completly refined.

What is invert sugar?  I thought it was an optical isomer of sucrose,
but sucrose is a disaccharide of glucose and fructose.

Back to the original point.  If the idea behind adding sugar is to
lessen the body of high gravity beers (doubbel, trippel), then it
would seem that glucose is the best bet.  Rajotte's book implies that
invert sugar is more fermentable (than sucrose), but it shouldn't
be more fermentable than glucose.
If the idea is to add some additional flavor, then brown, turbinado,
or candi sugar would be a better bet.  Glucose leaves no flavor and
sucrose leaves an undesirable (usually) flavor.
Where do candi sugar and turbinado come in?  That is, what do they
add that the other sugars don't?

So what did I get wrong?  Sugar is usually a taboo subject with
homebrewers, so I'm not suprised that there is no primer or anything.
Fire away...
                                  - Bryan

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Date: Tue, 13 Jul 93 12:40:47 PDT
From: mike at notorious.lbl.gov (Michael P. O'Neill)
Subject: beers across the world?


it's been a year since following this newsletter, so if this question
has been answered recently, SORRY!

Return to table of contents


Date: Tue, 13 Jul 93 12:57:10 -0700
From: ek at chem.UCSD.EDU (Ed Kesicki)
Subject: Wheat beer slants


I seem to have gotten the number wrong for the Co. that sells pure cultures
of wheat beer yeast.  I called the following, which was incorrect:

1-800-BREWTEK

Got some communications company.  
So..What is the real number?

Ed Kesicki


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Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1993 16:28:18 -0400 (EDT)
From: Kinney Baughman <BAUGHMANKR at conrad.appstate.edu>
Subject: The Tumbleweed Report (part 1)

What happened to all that free time I was supposed to have this summer?

I promised to summarize some of my experiences at the Tumbleweed Grille for 
the forum.  I received dozens of requests to do so, so here goes...  
Sorry it's taken so long.  I apologize in advance for the somewhat rambling 
nature of what follows but there's a lot I'd like to say and if you wait for 
me to organize it into MA thesis form, it'll never get posted!! 

Before getting down to all the numbers, allow me to set the stage for you.  
You'll never understand why we did what we did if you don't have a grasp on 
the problems as they were presented to us.  I'd hope that anyone who decided 
to take the jump into commercial brewing would have more money than we did.  
At the same time, what follows is proof positive that you can put together a 
commercially viable brewpub on a shoestring budget.  From the beginning, the 
prime motivating factor behind what we've done at Tumbleweed has been the 
fact the operation was designed and built without borrowing a single red 
cent!!  If the operation folds tomorrow, we haven't lost any money.  We've 
capitalized all equipment as the need arose.  To me, this makes what we're 
doing at Tumblewee unique and is why I'm boring you with the details.  We 
have almost 30 years combined brewing experience among the three brewers.  
And yet 7 months ago none of us could have imagined that we'd be doing things 
the way we are now!  But what we're doing is working, so what can you say? 

A bit of background on Tumbleweed.  The business started in 1989 as a 
Southwestern foods restaurant and is firmly established as such.  Tumbleweed 
is a restaurant first.  It is not a bar and doesn't pretend to be one.  This 
is important to keep in mind when one considers our weekly sales.  I think 
beer sales are significant despite this fact.  I sometimes shudder to think 
what could be happening if we were a bar.

The restaurant is located in Boone, NC, a small mountain town in the 
northwestern corner of NC.  Population of the town proper is about 13,000.  
Appalachian State University has an enrollment of 11,000.  I think there is 
about 30,000 people living in the county.  Boone is a summer and winter 
vacation destination point.  Believe it or not, Boone is the ski capital of 
the South.  There are 4 major slopes (at least for us) within 30 minutes of 
town.  In the summer, people come up here to escape the heat off the 
mountain.  Last I heard, some 2,000,000 tourists come through town each year.  
Much of our business comes from this tourist crowd.  We get hardly any 
business from the students.  We're beginning to get a decent following among 
the faculty and staff. 

Bart Conway, the proprietor at Tumbleweed, began reading about the brewpub 
movement in restauranteur publications and thought it was a great idea.  Bart 
is as enthusiastic a person as one could ever hope to meet.  He's a man who 
definitely appreciates good beer.  But as he contemplated starting his own 
brewpub I think it's fair to say he didn't know the difference between malt 
and hops.  So here's a man who likes the brewpub idea, owns a restaurant, and 
wants to try it, fully admitting he doesn't know that much about making beer.  
I have a lot of respect for a man with his intestinal fortitude. 

Not knowing the ins and outs, he did not want to invest 100's of thousands of 
dollars into a business about which he knew very little.  One day he was 
drinking coffee with a homebrewer here in Boone who said, "Sure.  I can brew 
beer.  Let's do it."  And so it began.  In February of 1992, Tumbleweed served 
its first beer. 

They bought a used gas stove, a 10 gallon enameled pot, and turned out the 
first few batches of Tumbleweed beer *5 gallons* at a time, bottled them and 
walked them down the hill to the restaurant.  (Tumbleweed is officially a 
microbrewery because the brewhouse is not attached to the restaurant itself.  
We walk the beer - now in 5 gallon cornelius kegs - down to the restaurant 
when they run out.)  Shortly they moved to 10 gallon batches.  An assistant 
brewer, Cam Hedrick, came on board in the May of 1992, is still there, and 
is the only member of the team who is indispensible.  He works forty hours a 
week, monitors the day to day operation: kegging, transfers, keeping the 
restaurant in stock, keeping records straight so the BATF stays off our backs, 
etc.  In July, Cam pushed production up to 30 gallons where things stood when 
Burton Moomaw and I were invited to join the operation in November. 

When Cam arrived, they were using an immersion wort chiller.  When the 30 
gallon kettle was put online, I helped them design a counterflow wort chiller 
(1/2" copper tubing inside 5/8" garden hose) which they began using in August.

Being the good mountain man that he is, Bart is an inveterate "horse trader".  
And with his own beer online, beer was a hot topic of conversation at the
restaurant.  During the course of one of these "rap" sessions, he scrounged a 
30 gallon stainless steel pot that had been used in a restaurant at one of 
the country clubs close by.  Now he needed a gas burner.  Somehow this came 
up in conversation with the guy who sells the restaurant after dinner mints. 
He knew where there was a 350,000 btu burner that wasn't being used and gave 
it to Bart.  The moral of the story here is that for a couple of free meals, 
the brewery had a stainless steel pot and a gas ring. 

In November Brett Deal, the head brewer moved from Boone, Bart called to ask 
me if I was interested in working in a kind of head/brewer consultant 
capacity.  Already working two jobs, I actually turned him down, promised to 
find someone for him, called my brewing buddy, Burton Moomaw, and we decided 
to form a very loose "partnership" and split the responsibilities with each 
other.  When I'm busy, he brews.  When he's busy, I brew.  And Cam, our 
brewery operations manager, always brews.

So here we were.  A couple of homebrewers who had never brewed more than 15 
gallons at a time.  Full of ideas and enthusiasm and no commerical brewing 
experience.  There were a number of changes to be made.  In fact, it's fair 
to say that no part of the existing brewing operation resembles what was 
going on in November.  We've changed everything. 

(To be continued)

Return to table of contents


Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1993 13:59:05 -0800 (PDT)
From: Dave Gilbert <solomon!solomon.aha.com!dave at yoda.eecs.wsu.edu>
Subject: DeWolfe-Cosyns distributor?

Well, the owner of my local homebrew store (if you can call a 160 mi. 
round trip local) has agreed that he will carry DeWolfe-Cosyns malt, 
providing I can find him a name, address and phone number for a 
distributor.  

So, how about it??

Any help will be greatly appreciated!!

Thanx

Dave Gilbert    dave at aha.com
Advanced Hardware Architectures Inc.
Moscow, Idaho


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Date:     Tue, 13 Jul 93 17:25:45 EDT
From: tony g <giannone at BBN.COM>
Subject:  Bartles & James MALT BEVERAGE??


Hi,

My wife was reading the label of a Bartles & James 'Premium Berry Cooler' and
she noticed that it said "Malt beverage with natural flavors".

Anyone know how to brew this stuff? I'd sure like to be able to brew something
similar, so my wife can enjoy the fruits :-) of my labor also.

regards,
tony (giannone at bbn.com)



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Date: Tue, 13 Jul 93 17:34 CDT
From: korz at iepubj.att.com
Subject: Irish Moss/overshoot/storing yeast under sucrose/7oz bottles

Jeff writes:
>I'm interested in hearing about people's experience using Irish Moss as
>a kettle fining agent.  I had been using it off and on for years,
>without being able to notice any difference when I remembered to add it.
>Eventually, I stop bothering all together, and since I was using 1056
>yeast almost exclusively, I hadn't any problems with clarity.

I used to use it, but after a discussion with George Fix (which I posted
in HBD a while ago) in which he convinced me that the majority of
mouthfeel and head retention is from proteins and not from dextrins, I
reassessed my use of Irish Moss.  Irish Moss works by electrostatically
attracting protein molecules to itself as it sinks to the bottom of
the kettle.  I was dissatisfied with my head retention at the time, so
I theorized that I might be taking too much of the proteins out of the
wort.  I cut back from a teaspoon to 1/2 teaspoon and then eventually
stopped using it altogether.  Except for my very first few batches, I
have always been very careful to not boil my grains.  (Chill haze needs
big proteins and tannins to form.  Head retention and mouthfeel are
the result of smaller proteins which can be formed from the big proteins
during the protein rest, but that's a whole other issue).  In any event,
I felt that I was getting acceptable clarity and thus did not miss the
use of the Irish Moss.

On the other hand, some of the National 1st-round judges (justifiably)
had a higher standard for clarity and I got some "slight haze" comments.
Now, I'm thinking about perhaps trying Irish Moss again or one of the
other finings, perhaps Polyclar, which (I believe) also works electro-
statically, but is used in the fermenter and instead of proteins it
attracts tannins (please correct me if I've got this wrong, or confirm).

By the way, the yeasts I use are mostly Wyeast #1056 and Wyeast #1028.

************************
Mark writes:
>Also, what are the dangers of a slight overshoot with a single-step
>infusion mash?  Will a couple of degrees above 156F hurt anything?

The way that higher temperature mashes work to make a more dextrinous
wort is that the beta-amylase enzyme is more quickly denatured at the
156-157-158F temperature range than is alpha-amylase.  At the lower
temps (148-149-150-151-152), they both work together to break the
starch molecules down to mostly fermentables, whereas at the higher
temps, it's mostly alpha-amylase at work.  If you overshoot to 158 or
160F for a minute or two, you may denature a bit of your alpha-amylase
faster than at 156F, but you probably couldn't even measure the
difference.

*****************************
Steve writes (in response to a question about storing yeast under sucrose
solution):

>The well documented producure will allow yeast to be stored
>for as long as two years. The principle behind it is at 4
>degrees C invertase becomes inactive. This means there is
>no way for the yeast to metabloize the sucrose. If you are
>getting fermentation there are a few things you might not 
>have made sure of: 1) you can have no other surgers but sucrose,
>common errors might include; taking the yeast from the 
>primary before it is completely fermented, using a low
>purity sucrose (it might have glucose in it for example),
>and 2) the solution must stay under 4 C at all times.

What I don't understand, is why the sucrose solution then?
I know that long term storage of yeast requires either
sub-zero temperatures or feeding them (so they don't start
eating their neighbors), but if they aren't going to eat
the sucrose, then why have it there at all?

*****************************
Rex writes:
>My question is: Where can I get 6-8oz bottles from? I see many home-brew
>suppliers carry 12 and 22oz sizes, but no mention of anything smaller. Does
>anyone know of a source of such bottles? I guess I'd be looking for 2-4 cases.

I have a possible source for this size of bottle (7oz, I believe -- they
are made of thick glass and have punts too!), but I would have to order a
great number of them.  How much interest is there in bottles such as these?
Please email me directly and if there is sufficient interest, I'll pursue
this source.

Al.

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Date: Tue, 13 Jul 93 18:24:58 EDT
From: chuck at synchro.com (Chuck Cox)
Subject: weevils

My hop plants have been slowly consumed by something that bites big
chunks out of the stem and leaves.  I thought for a while that it was
the same squirrel that was terrorizing my snapdragons.  However today I
found a bug munching away on a leaf. 

A quick perusal of Hops (R.A. Neve) found a picture of the critter.  It
is a Clay-coloured weevil (Otiorrhynchus singularis).  The damage
description matches too.  Unfortunately, Neve doesn't give much advice
about eliminating it. 

He states that it is not generally a pest of great importance.  He
suggests organo-phosphorus or carbamate insecticides, then refers to a
report about the possiblity of using parasitic nematodes.  I would
prefer using natural predators instead of insecticides, but Neve seems
uncertain of their usefulness.

Does anyone have any experience eliminating weevils? I now only have one
living plant left, and am concerned that predators may not be effective
on a single plant.  Perhaps I should simply kill the weevils by hand. 

- -- 
Chuck Cox   <chuck at synchro.com>
SynchroSystems / Riverside Garage & Brewery - Cambridge, Mass.

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Date: Tue, 13 Jul 93 15:49:20 -0700
From: pquint at mail.barrnet.net
Subject: ALES

MC EWAN'S ALE is my favorite and only try. Consistency is a concern, overboil
was a problem...any ideas out there?



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Date: Wed, 14 Jul 93 12:14:32 BST
From: Conn Copas <C.V.Copas at lut.ac.uk>
Subject: Re : Irish Moss

My experience has been that Irish Moss improves the _cold_ break, ie, upon
cooling the wort, one obtains a very sharply defined layer of trub, similar
to that which could otherwise be obtained by refrigerating the wort for a 
couple of days. I suspect we get told to add the Moss near the end of the boil
for reasons of economy, in other words, to let the combination of heat, hops
and agitation do its stuff first.

Jeff, what do the scientists say about the effects of Irish Moss on body/head
retention? It would be great if it was selective enough to take out the larger
proteins which we don't want and leave the rest, but I presume this is where
some of the reservations arise. In fact, this issue of protein selectivity
applies to a whole range of brewing practices, starting with the use of a
protein rest during mashing, and moving on to issues such as whether to skim
the initial boil or not, whether to use kettle finings or not, even whether to
employ forced wort chilling (at least in stouts), whether to skim/blow-off the
primary, and lastly whether to employ finings after fermentation. I presume a
whole lot of trade-offs are involved here, probably involving glucans and
lipids as well as proteins, and I for one would like to see more definitive
statements than can be found in the homebrewing textbooks.

- -- 
Conn V Copas
Loughborough University of Technology          tel : +44 509 263171  ext 4164
Computer-Human Interaction Research Centre     fax : +44 509 610815      
Leicestershire  LE11 3TU              e-mail - (Janet):C.V.Copas at uk.ac.lut   
G Britain                                      (Internet):C.V.Copas at lut.ac.uk


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Date: Wed, 14 Jul 93 08:04:40 -0400
From: Philip J Difalco <sxupjd at anubis.fnma.COM>
Subject: Barreling Beer


I'd like to barrel my beer.

The only place I have seen barrels for sale was in a catalog ("The Cellar
Homebrew, Supplies & Equipment, 1993 catalog, 1-800-342-1871).  Their oak
barrels ranged in price:  $60/1gal., $93/5gal., $115/10gal.

Seems semi-expensive.
If anyone has a cheaper source for oak barrels, I'd like to know.
Thanks in advance.

- ---
email: sxupjd at fnma.com (NeXT Mail Okay)
Philip DiFalco, Senior SomethingOrOther, Advanced Technology
FannieMae, 3900 Wisconsin Ave NW, Washington, DC 22016     (202)752-2812

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Date: Wed, 14 Jul 93 08:27:23 -0400
From: pgauvin at hq.crad.dnd.ca (Pierre Gauvin)
Subject: U-Brew-It-Here

Here in Ontario, this has been a real growth industry for the last
year.  However, the BIG BEER MAKERS complained about the unfair
competition and in the last provincial budget, the government slapped
a tax of $0.26/litre starting 1 Aug 93.  The tax is scheduled to go up
in the next couple of years.  This will spell the end of a lot of the
U-Brew places.

The way they worked is that you go there, pick a recipe and are
assigned a kettle.  You mix the ingredients and cook the beer, then
the staff puts it in a keg to age after filtering and cooling through
a heat exchanger.  Two weeks later, you come back to bottle.  I
understand that during the interval, the beer is filtered once again
and transfered into another keg.

There are some severe restrictions on the places.  They do not sell
beer.  They sell ingredients and bottles, and rent the equipment to
users.  You are not allowed to sample your beer while bottling so that
the place does not turn into a drinking establishment.  The only way
to sample a beer recipe before brewing is to exchange a bottle with
the person bottling next to you or with friends who brew there.

Costs for a batch of 48 litres (roughly 12 gallons) vary between $60
and $110 CDN depending on the recipes.  This includes the regular
sales taxes and a $25 service charge (equipment rental, storage,
etc...).  The new tax will add more than $12 per batch.  The old price
was half the price of a commercial beerfor a clone of same beers to
about the same price for a more exotic  beer (Chimay clone).  Now the
price will go up to almost 75% of the cost of commercial stuff.

Advantages of U-Brews: -No mess to clean up.  No room required to
store ber or ingredients.	
			- No smelling up the house
			- Socializing
			- Its almost impossible to make bad beer
there.

Disadvantages:	- Cost: Almost twice as expensive as making beer at
home, especially if you shop around for ingredients
		- Limited choices of beer recipes, with no
cusatomization.
		-Car required to bring back the bottles
		-Cannot experiment with more exotic ingredients such
as ginger, fruits, etc...
		-Cannot lager the beer





Pierre Gauvin
pgauvin at hq.crad.dnd.ca

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Date: 	Wed, 14 Jul 1993 05:34:40 PDT
From: wegeng.henr801c at xerox.com
Subject: Re: Parking in Portland

>Does anyone have a suggestion on where to park [in Portland]?

You might check into private long term parking lots at the airport, which might
be cheaper (though the bus fare to/from the airport might make up for the cost
savings).  Your travel agent ought to be able to help you with this.

Btw, it`s also worth mentioning that the conference hotel does not provide a
free shuttle bus to/from the airport.  There`s a private bus that serves
several of the downtown hotels, however.  Yet another cost to add to your
budget for the week.

/Don
wegeng.henr801c at xerox.com

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Date: Wed, 14 Jul 93 8:12:37 CDT
From: raudins at galt.b17d.ingr.com (Glenn Raudins)
Subject: Darkening Extract;  Brewer's Warehouse;  Nitrogen Regs

In HBD #1181, Derrick Pohl writes:

> He said that boiling does
> indeed darken malt - he thinks it's actually an oxidation process and that
> splashing the wort around a lot when hot darkens it even more.  His

  Since George isn't with us this summer (may the book go well), one of the
reactions at working is the "Browning Reaction(s)".  (Most of this info
comes from George's book via my hazy morning memory.)  
  Browning reactions START when the extract is being made.  They continue
while in the can, which means it would be nice if they marked the cans with
date of production.  The Browning reactions result in Melanoidins.  These
reactions will also occuring during your boil.  The oxidation of melanoidins
is where they begin to play a bigger part in the overall beer.  (Not
mentioned above, melanoidins are the dark pigment.)  If you have George's
book, Principles of Brewing Science, the section is only a couple pages long
but well worth reading.


re:  Brewer's Warehouse

  Has anyone out there bought their propane burner?  It appears to be in a
ceramic base of some nature, which probably would solve the need to build a
heat shield.


re:  Nitrogen thread

  Looking at Superior's catalog last night, I noticed Nitrogen regulators.
Just for the knowledge, what is the difference between these and CO2 regs?
Range on the dials?

Glenn Raudins
raudins at galt.b17d.ingr.com


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Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1993 09:27:22 -0400
From: "/platinum/homes/hethmon/.signature" <hethmon at cs.utk.edu>
Subject: Plastic Fermenters

I've got a question about plastic fermentation vessels.  The kit I started
with came with a 6.5 gallon plastic pail with a screw down lid for the
primary fermenter.  Though the batches I've brewed so far have come out
good (with the exception of using old Whitbread yeast for one -- yuck!), I 
noticed a definite lack of bubbles coming up through the fermentation lock.
I asked at my homebrew store and he said it was hard to make a good seal
between the lid and pail.

I guess my question in all of this rambling is whether this seems reasonable
and whether I should worry or have a homebrew?  I've thought of going to
a glass carboy for a primary fermenter, but I don't have a 6 or 7 gallon one
at the moment.  I've thought of using my 5 gallon size with a blow off tube, but
the thought of my dogs or two year old son drinking from the blow off bucket
has kept me from it so far.

Any comments or suggestions?

thanks,
:  Paul Hethmon			|     anonymous ftp for
:  hethmon at cs.utk.edu		|  Woodworking: cs.rochester.edu
:  University of Tennessee	| Brewing info: sierra.stanford.edu
:  Knoxville, Tennessee		|    OS/2 info: ftp-os2.cdrom.com

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Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1993 10:03:30 -0400 (EDT)
From: KLIGERMAN at herlvx.rtpnc.epa.gov
Subject: dextrose, hot break

F.J. Dobner  writes"..my understanding of dextrose is that it is not largely
fermentable (by commonly used yeast)."...
He must be confusing dextrose with some other sugar.  Glucose, dextrose,  
corn sugar, and grape sugar are synonymous (The Merck Index 10th Edition)
These are all fermentable by common yeast.
There also seems to be some confusion about what is the hot break and when does
it occur.  I hope someone knowledgeable will clear this up.
Andy Kligerman

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Date: Wed, 14 Jul 93 09:50:16 EDT
From: chiz at atmel.com (Robert Chizmadia)
Subject: RE: Drinking around Lancaster PA


Very close to Lancaster is Adamstown.  There you will find Stoudt's brewpub.
I recommend the honey nut oatmeal stout.  Depending on how far you want to 
travel,  there are two brewpubs in Philadelphia and three in Baltimore.  Philly
is about half an hour, and has the Dock Street brewpub and the Sam Adams 
brewpub.  In Baltimore, there is the Baltimore Brewing Company ( which makes a
very unique wiezen-bock ), Sisson's brewpub, and the Wharf Rat. Make sure you
get the Wharf Rat by Camden Yards for microbrew, although with 28 taps the one
is Fell's Point is a fine drinking establishment.  Baltimore is about an hour
and a half away.

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Date: 14 Jul 93 11:26:36 EDT
From: Matthew Mitchell <IEKP898%tjuvm.bitnet at TJUVM.TJU.EDU>
Subject: Neuweiler's Stock Ale

From:  Matthew Mitchell
Another excellent contract brew from Lion in Wilkes-Barre is the Neuweiler's
Stock Ale, brewed for Neuweiler's of Allentown.  I think they have their
own brewery, right?  They've been around a while and I never looked twice
but at the distributor, I saw markings on the case that looked like Lion's
and had to try.Only $15.00||  8^) =

Anyway, the beer is quite amber, and has a fruity hoppy aroma much like a
good IPA, Taste is excellent, with accent on hop character.  All-malt
according to the label.

So is stock ale a defined style?  The last one I had was the Molson Stock Ale
(which had an anchor in the hexagon molson label ref to sea voyage like
 in IPA???!)
The label says that the story is that the beer was reserved for stockholders
in the company  Any truth to that??  Is that the same story as UK's
Courage "Directors' Bitter??"

Howzat!?!
Matthew Mitchell     <iekp898 at tjuvm.tju.edu>   <iekp898 at tjuvm.bitnet>
Former Brewmaster, Penthouse Brewing Co., Haverford PA
makers of Barclay Beer, Penthouse Brown Ale, and Big B Malt Liquor


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Date: Wed, 14 Jul 93 10:54:42 CDT
From: hinz at memphis.med.ge.com (David Hinz)
Subject: Hunter Airstat summary available from me.

Greetings!


About a week ago, I expressed my frustration at not knowing how to get
a Hunter Airstat.  The responses were numerous, and I saved most of them.
(My mail program is flukey sometimes).

If anyone would like a (fwd) of the summary, I'd be happy to e-mail it
to you, and if there's enough interest I could forward it to the Sierra
listserv.

Dave Hinz

ObHomebrewComment:  Don't you just HATE finishing the last bottle of a batch?
It's sort of sad to know that the whole thing is history...



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Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1993 09:11:00 -0700 (PDT)
From: gummitch at techbook.com (Jeff Frane)
Subject: Hot Break Terminology


Judging from the responses I received in regard to my posting on Irish
Moss, there is some real confusion about the definition of "hot break".
A number of people seemed to think I was advocating adding the IM at the
beginning of the boil, which is not at all the case.  

So let's be clear: the hot break is at THE END of the boil, not the
beginning.

I can understand the confusion; not only have recent postings by
theoretically reliable people made the wrong assertion, but the standard
homebrewing texts are remarkably vague on the whole subject.  Although I
found good information in professional brewing texts, the most lucid
explanation is from good old Dave Line, in his Big Book of Brewing, from
which I quote with abandon:

     The "hot break"

     If you take a sample of the wort in a hydrometer jar and hold it up
     to the light it should look reasonably clear; clear, but not
     crystal clear and bright like one would expect in the finished
     beer.

     The change in clarity is brought about by the boiling process. A
     closer inspection of a light coloured wort would show that the
     dullness is caused by a greyish mist of finely dispersed matter.
     The mist is due to the presence of haze forming degraded protein
     matter combined with hop tannins and its derivatives.

     The behaviour of these nitrogenous substances in the copper is
     rather remarkable.  Long vigorous boils will coagulate these gummy
     substances and make them insoluble.  Regularly observing the
     clarity of samples taken throughout the boil will demonstrate
     this fact.  A few minutes after boiling commences, the mist forms a
     haze of small, but visible particles.  The particles grow as the
     boiling ation, coupled with the buffering of hop cones, increases
     the rate at which these gummy substances combine to form even
     larger particles.

     The "hot break" is said to be secured when all the protein matter
     has formed into flocculating compact lumps.  Always check for this
     condition (but not before at least one hour's boil) by removing a
     wineglassful of the wort.

     The thermal cycle of cooling, should, if the break is successful,
     deposit the match head sized particles at the bottom of the glass
     to leave the wort above clear of suspended matter.  If there are
     still minute particles in suspension which have not combined with
     the main masses, then the wort is "undercooked" and boiling must be
     continued.


For those of a more scientific bent, there are similar discussions in
DeClerq, who also recommends visual examination of the wort and says:
"The appearance of the break serves as a guide to the brewer for the
duration of the boil, because it frequently happens that after a good
break has been obtained any further boiling gives a turbid wort."  

Recommendations on the use of Irish Moss range from 15 minutes (Dr. Fix)
to 1/2 hour before the end of the boil.

- --Jeff Frane 



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Date: 14 Jul 93 11:27:32 EDT
From: CHUCKM at PBN73.CV.COM
Subject: step mashing temperature formula?

Hello brewers,

  PErhaps someone can help...

 Does anyone have a formula that will help me with Step infusions in
order to hit proper temperatures.  eg.  I mash in a cooler tun. If I
have X pounds of grain at Y degrees, how much 212 degree water must I add
to raise the temp Z degrees. Given that I know X, Y, and Z all I need to
find out is the 'how much'.

Thanks in advance

chuckm at pbn73.cv.com

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End of HOMEBREW Digest #1182, 07/15/93