FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Rob Gardner, Digest Coordinator


Contents:
  Sour Mash Brewing (Todd Gierman)
  bgros (Jack Schmidling)
  RE dunkelweizen recipes (James Dipalma)
  Otter Creek Copper Ale (Spencer.W.Thomas)
  Water and carbonation (DEROSEGA)
  Re: Wyeast 1007 (Brian Smithey)
  HBD Garbage (WILSON.TROY)
  I want a new factor! (Steve Casselman)
  Hop Utilization (Mark Garetz)
  Rats! Mistake in Last Equation ("Palmer.John")
  AHA Judging results (Philip Atkinson 356-0269)
  Re: Barreling Beer (Philip J Difalco)
  Lactic Briess Malt Extract (Marybeth_Raines)
  Dr. Beer (Cree-ee-py Boy)
  Prescription Beer (Domenick Venezia)
  Auto Reply from Watch_Mail for 7-AUG-1993 00:00 to 16-AUG-1993 00:00 (07-Aug-1993 0320)
  Montreal - Breweries/Brewpubs????? (wiehn)
  cooler as a mash tun (Mike Zulauf)


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----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 5 Aug 1993 21:56:11 -0500
From: tmgierma at raphael.acpub.duke.edu (Todd Gierman)
Subject: Sour Mash Brewing

With all the discussion concerning the overnight mash, I'd like to raise
the issue of the sour mash.  As you may know, the sour mash method ala
Papazian is somewhat similar, the difference being that the mash is
inoculated with about 1/2 pound of raw grain at 135-140 degrees F.  The mash
is then left to sit overnight 15-24 hours, depending on the degree of
sourness desired.  A week and a half ago, I found myself contemplating the
merits of this procedure as I was attempting to produce a slightly sour
Belgian witbier.  I was troubled by the overnight mash:  would I end up
with an extremely attenuated beer, which I guess is somewhat desirable for
the style, by allowing  excessive conversion?  would the bugs even grow at
such a high temperature, this is pretty high for your garden variety
bacillus?  Okay, so I worried and decided to hedge my bet - do the complete
mash and lauter, then add bugs that were cultured several days in advance
from the grain and let it go 12-13 hours.  I figured that the actively
growing bugs would push the souring time ahead.  I examined the cultures
from the grain under the microscope.   All kinds of stuff gets started from
the grains - mainly wild yeast and bacilli, but also some little round guys
all strung together (cocci).  It seemed like there was a lot more in there
than I had wanted.  I worried some more and hedged some more - I started a
culture using sourdough starter, at least I had had some previous
experience with it.  So there I was at 1 a.m. as the wort cooled,
"sourdough or grains? sourdough or grains? Okay, grains it is."  I pitched
the culture from the grains and went to bed.  In the morning, I was sourly
disappointed to see no activity and no souring.  Why, Charlie P. had me
anticipating little fuzzies growing all over my wort.  I wondered whether
the high
temperature had inhibited growth (I had cooled to 115 F before pitching). 
So, I figured what the hell and added the sourdough culture and let it go 6
hours
more.  Eventually,  a bacterial scum accumulated on top, but I never
got an impressive souring (I could only wait so long).  

It turns out that sourdough starter requires  a symbiotic relationship
between a wild yeast (Candida) and a lactobacillus (sanfrancisco, no less),
and perhaps it comes as no surprise, the sourdough and grain cultures
looked surprisingly similar under the scope.  Now, maybe, my experience
indicates that it's not surprising that little if any spoilage occurs with
other people's overnignt mashes - it's difficult to get it when you're
trying.  I suspect that the high temperature of the mash is not all that
conducive to the growth of lactobacillus.  It is true that there are
species of lactobacilli that do well above 45C, but the sour mash
guidelines are, I believe, roughly 10 C above this.  Besides, are these
stray bugs
the ones I want spoiling my beer?  Traditionally, Lactobacillus brevis is
used in the brewing industry to sour beers, or causes spoilage (also
Pediococcus cervesiae and Lactobacillus pastorianis (a no longer valid
name).  It works well at lower temperatures (ideally 15C).  This seems to
be the bug that one finds in a bottle of Berliner Kindl Weissbier, at least
it won't grow very well above room temperature.  Anyway, maybe the sourness
will come through once the sugars have been fermented.  Does anyone else
have a sour mash theory or experience?  Has anyone added lactic acid or
citric acid to sour a beer?  What are the odds that I could successfully
utilize the lactobacillus culture from the Berliner Kindl?

Thanks.

Todd M. Gierman
Department of Microbiology
Duke University Medical Center


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Date: Fri, 6 Aug 93 08:49 CDT
From: arf at genesis.mcs.com (Jack Schmidling)
Subject: bgros

 
 Brian Gros.....  mail is bouncing to you.  Send me your
 phone number or call me at 312 685 1878
 
 js
 

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Date: Fri, 6 Aug 93 10:16:21 EDT
From: dipalma at banshee.sw.stratus.com (James Dipalma)
Subject: RE dunkelweizen recipes


Hi All,

  In HBD#1197, Andy Phillips asks:

>I'd like to have a go a making a dunkelweizen soon. I have
>a few questions about recipe formulation:
>1. What grain should I use, and how much, to get the colour
>   right? 

  A dunkelweizen is supposed to have a soft, understated maltiness.  I
use 1/2 pound of chocolate malt, added at mashout.  IMHO, roasted barley
or black patent would lend a sharp, biting sort of flavor.  Since a weizen
is supposed to be lightly hopped, I'd also avoid crystal, the beer may
come out too sweet.
  I also use a pound of 8L-10L Munich malt, which contributes some color
and maltiness.
  From the guidelines for the 1991 AHA Nationals:
  d) German-style Dunkelweizen "Chocolate-like maltiness evident."

>2. Hops? Hallertauer?

	Hallertauer is fine, though I personally prefer Tettnang.  Keep the
hopping levels low, 15 IBUs or so.  Speaking from experience, the
combination of extreme cloviness and high hoppiness is quite unpleasant.
I'd also recommend adding all the hops at once at the beginning of the boil,
late additions are inappropriate for this style.  You don't want a lot of
hop flavor masking the more subtle phenolics found in a weizen, i.e.,
banana, vanilla, etc.

>3. Yeast? I know of no source of liquid cultures of wheat beer yeasts
>   in the UK. I can buy several HefeWeizens, which of these do you
>   think would make the best starter: Thurn und Taxis HefeWeizen
>   or Roggen, or Erdinger DunkelWeizen? The last of these seems
>   to throw a good sediment, so this is my first choice. Are all
>   HefeWeizens bottle conditioned, or are some pasteurized?

  I use the Weihenstephan #66 strain, which does a beautiful job of
producing the clovy, spicy character one expects in a weizen.  I don't
know about availability in the UK.
  Andy, you might have a problem getting a good fermentation strain from
commercial dunkelweizens.  These beers are generally bottle conditioned
with a lager yeast.  I don't know offhand of any specific commercial brand
that has the fermentation strain in the bottle.  Anyone else know? 

>4. Temperature? Unfortunately, I have no control over this,
>   so I may have to wait for autumn before I start. The temperature
>   in Bristol today is a sizzling 67F.

  Please forgive me, I have to laugh at the notion that 67F in August is
"sizzling".   Here in New England, it was in the 90s and humid for most
of July, which did not prevent me from brewing three batches of weizen.
The W66 strain is supposed to be fermented at standard ale temperatures,
though mine were fermented at 70F-72F, and came out fine.  
  One more note.  If you can get the Belgian wheat malt from DeWolf-Cosyns
malting, do it.  This malt is plumper and contains far less protein than
any German or American wheat malts I have used in the past.  The resultant
high extraction and ease of lautering make this a very nice malt with
which to work. 

                                     Cheers,
                                      Jim


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Date: Fri, 6 Aug 93 11:09:55 EDT
From: Spencer.W.Thomas at med.umich.edu
Subject: Otter Creek Copper Ale

Otter Creek (of Middlebury, VT) makes an interesting "Copper Ale" that
they claim is inspired by Dusseldorf Alt.  It's got a very interesting
flavor, sort of "grainy" (as opposed to malty).  Does anyone know how
they get this flavor?  Is it the malt?  the yeast?  the hops?  Some
combination?


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Date: Fri, 6 AUG 93 11:34:19 EST
From: DEROSEGA%ML%WPAFB at MLGATE.ML.WPAFB.AF.MIL
Subject: Water and carbonation

A batch of stout I made in February (extract + specialty grains) started 
out by having "perfect" carbonation and head retention, but after aging in 
the bottles it became overcarbonated to the point of pouring nearly all 
foam about 2 months ago.  When I opened a bottle last night, which was 
first chilled, I let it sit on the counter for about 5-10 minutes before 
pouring, and foam slowly rose to the top and slightly poured over.  Pouring 
as slowly as I could still gave me about a 4" head in a 12 oz slant-sided 
glass, which I had vigorously rinsed in hot tap water to remove any rinse 
agent residue from my dishwasher.  The beer tastes fine, so infection does 
not seem to be the culprit.  This leads me to a question for those who know 
more about water than I.  I used my city tap water for the brew, which 
contains a lot of lime and other minerals (Fairborn, OH).  Is there a 
relation between high mineral content of water and increased carbonation as 
a function of time?  Could the "yuck" in my water serve as nucleation sites 
for bubbles?

Thanks for sharing your observations,
Guy DeRose
Physicist, pilot, homebrewer.
     

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Date: Fri, 6 Aug 1993 09:47:17 +0700
From: Brian.Smithey at Central.Sun.COM (Brian Smithey)
Subject: Re: Wyeast 1007


>>>>> Jonathan G Knight <KNIGHTJ at AC.GRIN.EDU> writes:

Jonathan> There's been a lot of interest in Wyeast 1007 the last
Jonathan> couple of issues.  This is one I haven't used myself, yet.
Jonathan> I know it's the "Alt" yeast, and Russ Gelinas says it makes
Jonathan> a nice Porter.  Russ, or anyone else out there, I'd be
Jonathan> interested in more discussion and/or recipes which are a
Jonathan> nice match for this yeast.


The "Alt" yeast is #1338 (or something like that), Wyeast calls it
European Ale.  Wyeast 1007 is called German Ale, and I believe is
Wyeast's original ale yeast.  Byron Burch mentions in the special
Yeast issue of Zymurgy that this is a "true top-fermenting" yeast.
I recently brewed a cherry beer with this yeast, fermentation was
quite vigorous and pushed a lot of sticky yeast up through the high
krauesen foam, resulting in a tan/brown cap.  This yeast would
seem quite suitable for the practice of skimming the yeast at
high krauesen for pitching into the next batch.

One thing I did notice with Weast 1007 -- I pitched when quite
warm (80+ F), and after a day of strong fermentation I noticed
a pronounced banana aroma from the fermenter.  When I racked
this beer at about a week the gravity sample had a definite
banana ester character.  I don't know first-hand how this yeast
bahaves at more appropriate fermentation temperatures -- I think
that Byron's article reports it to be a good general-purpose
Ale yeast, fairly clean but with a bit more complexity that
Sierra Nevada's yeast -- but if you're in an area where the
homebrewers suffer from Summer heatwave-induced warm ferments,
be aware that this yeast will give you some banana component.
I'm pretty happy with the yeast-fruity background in this beer,
so you might consider warm fermenting with 1007 when doing fruit
beers.

Brian
- --
Brian Smithey / Sun Microsystems / Colorado Springs, CO
smithey at rmtc.Central.Sun.COM

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Date: 06 Aug 93 11:38 EST
From: WILSON.TROY at FORUM.VA.GOV
Subject: HBD Garbage

Greetings fellow HBDers!  I've been reading the HBD for over 3 years now
and am finally putting in 2 cents.  Sadly, however, it has little to do
with the beloved art of brewing.  I find myself having to respond to a
post from lyons%adc2 at swlvx2.msd.ray.com in HBD 1197 (whoever this person
is). This individual provided the following input to a post by Mr. Geoff
Reeves:
 
>Is this a joke?  I can't stop laughing!  Actually we shouldn't be laughing
>about the mathematically ignorant.  In case that this is not a joke,
>please review your concepts of dimensional analysis or seek help.
 
And contintues with:
 
>Did you get a high school diploma?
 
In my opinion, these comments are insulting, inflamatory, childish, etc.
and have absolutely *NO* place in this forum.  Whoever you are, you
provided no input to the digest with your post.  By using this forum as a
platform to insult others you do serious damage to the HBD.  How many long
time readers (and experienced brewers) will see your post as the last straw
and no longer subscribe?  I recall the last time such nonsense occurred,
many long time HBDers dropped out because it just wasn't worth tolerating.
Further, how many new brewers have now been frightened into *not* asking
beginner questions for fear of being riddiculed?  As right, wrong or
indifferent as a post may be, there is no justification for attempting to
humiliate the poster.  I believe that Mr. Reeves is due a public appology
for these comments, and I hope other HBDers will join me in this call.
 
Hopefully my next post will be on a maltier subject...
 
Troy
wilson.troy at forum.va.gov
Iowa City, IA (living in the swampland)

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Date: Fri, 6 Aug 93 10:40:13 PDT
From: sc at vcc.com (Steve Casselman)
Subject: I want a new factor!


Having read the latest about pts-gal/lb I keep thinking I
would like to have a factor that when multiplied by the 
number of lbs of grain I used would give me the lbs of
extract I would need to get the same OG. This would
be ratio of weight of the grain bill over the weight
of the dissolved solids in the wort (or vice-versa). This
would be dimension-less and would tell me how much grain
I dissolved during my mash, a kind of efficiency. My question is  
this derivable from pts-gal/lb and would it be useful? I
believe it would be a useful number for recreating grain
rescipes with extracts.



- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
|      "Today's Software is Tomorow's Hardware" --- A.S. Tannenbaum       |
|   Virtual Computer Corporation -- FPGA based custom computing systems.  |
| Steve Casselman           E-mail sc at vcc.com         Phone (818) 342-8294|
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------

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Date: Fri, 6 Aug 93 13:01:55 PDT
From: Mark Garetz <mgaretz at hoptech.com>
Subject: Hop Utilization

John Palmer writes:

>*The Utilization Rate* (from Karl King)
>If the boiling time is less than 23 minutes, then %U = (0.64 * time) - 2.62 
>Otherwise, %U = (0.4 * time) + 3

I haven't run a lot of values through this formula, but it's obvious
that it's not right.  For example, a 60 minute boil gives you (0.4*60)+3
or 27% utilization.  That's way too high. To quote Gail Nickerson in a
recent conversation I had with her, "The big brewers will tell you they get
25% utilization, but they don't get it.  They actually get between 18 and
22%."  BTW, this is for a 90 minute boil.

The formula also will give a linear slope (for values above 23 minutes
anyway) and that's not right either.  The slope is not first order either,
but looks more like this:

                    *
              *
         * 
      *
    *


Forgive my "ascii" representation, but the idea is that it almost looks
first order, but there is a "limiting factor" (suspected to be caused by
the dropping pH of the wort) somewhere at the top end that causes the slope
to be less steep than a true first order slope. Reference is an article by
D.R. Maule in Vol. 72, 1966 of the Journal of the Institute of Brewing.

It's also clear from this article and others that, despite Rager's table
and even my own version of it presented here, boil times of greater than
60 minutes do have an impact on the utilization (the tables assume anything
greater than 50 minutes is the same).

Mark

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Date: 6 Aug 1993 10:20:46 U
From: "Palmer.John" <palmer#d#john at ssdgwy.mdc.com>
Subject: Rats! Mistake in Last Equation

In the last issue of HBD, I wrote:

*Doing it Backwards*
What if you say to yourself, I would like most of the hop charactor from
Northern Brewer, Some from Fuggles, and some from Saaz?  Well the IBU equation
can be worked backwards for the amount of Hops that need to be boiled for a
given time.

Wt = (% of total charactor) * (Target total IBUs) *VT / %U / % alpha / 7462

Where the % of the total hop IBUs is expressed as a percent.  Ex. 60% of 50
IBUs total from Northern Brewer would be 0.6 * 50 * VT etc.  The time boiled is
expressed as the percent utilization from the equations above.
I hope this will be useful to all of you as well as correct the mistakes in
Zymurgy.

DID YOU NOTICE I FORGOT GA?!  AARGH! (kick, kick, kick)
Anyway, it should be:
 Wt = (% of ttl) * (ttl IBUs) * GA * VT / %U / %A / 7462
Ok that should do it, 
JP  Entropy is always increasing...

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Date: Fri, 06 Aug 1993 13:53:00 -0700 (PDT)
From: Philip Atkinson 356-0269 <PATKINSON at galaxy.gov.bc.ca>
Subject: AHA Judging results

          Help!
          
          Several people from Victoria BC sat the AHA judge's exam at the 
          `Wort You Brewin?' competition in Vancouver in April (that's 
          five months ago!). The Victoria Mocrobrewery Festival is 
          scheduled for October 23 and we need to know how these folks 
          faired so they can (or cannot) judge the homebrew competition. 
          Can anyone put me in touch with the appropriate authority? Or 
          them in touch with me?
          
          e-mail direct please and thanks in anticipation etc ...
          
          Phil Atkinson
          Victoria, BC



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Date: Fri, 6 Aug 93 16:44:50 -0400
From: Philip J Difalco <sxupjd at anubis.fnma.COM>
Subject: Re: Barreling Beer


Thanks for the responses I've receivied concerning Barreling Beer.

Should one sally forth into an adventure of barreling their beer,
prevailing sentiment suggests one should:  

        -  read Terry Foster's book, "Pale Ale" (from the "Classic
           Beer Series" book collection).

I plan on barreling my next batch (in the coming month or so) - I'll
keep you all informed of this adventure (unless predilection dictates
otherwise).

- ---
email: sxupjd at fnma.com (NeXT Mail Okay)
Philip DiFalco, Senior SomethingOrOther, Advanced Technology
FannieMae, 3900 Wisconsin Ave. NW, Washington, DC 22016     (202)752-2812

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Date: Fri, 6 Aug 93 14:42:35 PDT
From: raines at radonc.ucla.edu (Marybeth_Raines)
Subject: Lactic Briess Malt Extract

>Date: Mon, 26 Jul 93 12:02:29 CDT
>From: "Anthony Johnston" <anthony at chemsun.chem.umn.edu>
>Subject: Briess, Northwestern

>Thanks to all of those individuals who let me know that Briess and
>Northwestern malt extracts are one and the same, the only difference 
being >the packaging.  Now I have a real problem on my hands, namely 
figuring out >what the Hell is going on with my brew!!!

Rest assured that your brewing is fine and there is indeed a problem 
with your Briess malt extract.  I routinely use Briess malt extract 
(and some grain adjuncts) to brew 5 gallon test batches to evaluate 
new yeast strains for Brewers Resource and have not had a problem 
until recently.  About six weeks ago I brewed a Brown Ale and 
Continental Lager both of which tasted sour (lactic acid) out of the 
primary fermenter.  This nasty flavor has remained in my brew.  As it 
turns out several other homebrewers have called Brewers Resource and 
complained of a similar problem.  One person picked up this off flavor 
in the wort prior to fermenting.  We believe that there is a bad batch 
of DME floating around. Brewers Resource has notified Breiss of this 
problem and demanded compensation.  Most unsuspecting homebrewers 
however are probably stuck with this substandard product and are 
attributing this off flavor to some systematic error.  Good luck in 
trying to get your 60 lbs replaced.  

So much for evaluating some new yeast strains now I'm stuck with some 
sour beer which I must doctor in some way to make it drinkable.  I 
added a few tablespoons of Hersheys chocolate syrup to the brown ale 
(Bosco beer) and my softball team sucked that five gallons down in no 
time.  I'm still  pondering what to do with the lager maybe some 
fruit; I've yet to taste the lager since I racked it into the 
secondary so we'll see.  

The real question is do you have DME left and what to do with it?  
Maybe you can use it as a substitute for a sour mash and make a 
lambic-like beer.  Some other HBD brewers may have some other creative 
ideas.

P.S.  In case you all-grain snobs are wondering, yes I do brew all 
grain (40 gallons) but moving to a studio apartment in Manhattan a 
couple of years ago forced me into extract brewing and you know what I 
liked it! I continue to use extract brews for testing yeasts since I 
can brew 2 different five gallon batches at once and can do it in 
about 3 hours without any help.  Plus it gives us some variety to 
what's on tap.

M.B. Raines
<mraines at radonc.ucla.edu >

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Date:    Fri, 6 Aug 1993 17:19:28 -0500 (CDT)
From: BIRMINGHAM at FNE683.FNAL.GOV (Cree-ee-py Boy)
Subject: Dr. Beer


         I'm thinking of organizing a Dr. Beer session for my edification
    and that of the other Headhunters. I'd like to get hints on what
    effects are good to produce, and how to produce them.

         Please e-mail me at birmingham at fne683.fnal.gov with suggestions. I
    will be typing up a summary which I will e-mail to interested parties,
    or post to the Digest if there is enough interest.

                                                    Thanks,
                                                    Phillip

- --
    Phillip J. Birmingham   "Tampering in God's Domain since 1965!"  
    birmingham at fne683.fnal.gov

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Date: Fri, 6 Aug 1993 21:16:47 -0700 (PDT)
From: Domenick Venezia <venezia at zgi.com>
Subject: Prescription Beer

I was talking to an elderly gentleman today and he said 
that during prohibition the doctor had told his mother she
had to drink beer every day, so he gave her a prescription for
beer which she had to pick up at the drugstore.  Has anyone
ever heard of this?  Why would a woman be medically required
to take beer daily?  Vitamins?  

Domenick Venezia
ZymoGenetics, Inc.
venezia at zgi.com



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Date: Sat, 7 Aug 93 03:13:35 EDT
From: 07-Aug-1993 0320 <michaud at star.enet.dec.com>
Subject: Auto Reply from Watch_Mail for 7-AUG-1993 00:00 to 16-AUG-1993 00:00

Hello,

 	I am currently out of the office and will return on
	Monday, August 16th. I will respond to your mail at
	that time.
	
	If you have an issue that cannot wait until I return,
	please contact Linda Benson (STAR::LBENSON).

Regards,
	Peter


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Date: Wed,  4 Aug 93 08:24:41 EDT
From: wiehn at evax.gdc.com
Subject: Montreal - Breweries/Brewpubs?????

Can anyone lead me to any good Brewpubs in Montreal?  Also are any of the
big breweries in Montreal open for tours?????

Thanks!!!

JOHN WIEHN
WIEHN at EVAX.GDC.COM

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Date: Sun, 8 Aug 93 15:15:12 -0600
From: Mike Zulauf <zulauf at orbit.Colorado.EDU>
Subject: cooler as a mash tun

Hello fellow homebrewers!

     After doing several partial mash beers, three batches using my own
design of a wort chiller, and two full boils, I now feel ready to proceed
into the world of all-grain brewing.
     The only real questions I have concern the mash tun.  I am planning
on using some type of cooler.  I would prefer to use one of the cylindrical
ones, as I feel that I could obtain a deeper grain bed, and it would be
easier to fit a false bottom, etc.  What types and sizes have people
used, and how well do they work?  Are there any problems with using a
cooler designed to store cold liquids with hot materials? (ie melting,
off flavors from the plastic, etc.)  What size will be required for
mashing say 20 lbs of grain?  Anything else I should know?

     All responses appreciated,

                                Mike Zulauf
                                zulauf at orbit.colorado.edu

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End of HOMEBREW Digest #1199, 08/09/93