FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Rob Gardner, Digest Coordinator


Contents:
  Bitter rye ale (Kari Nikkanen, design engineer)
  S. delbrukii or S. cerevisiae? Also notes on S. uvarum, S. (respond to deb_neher at ncsu.edu)
  Stainless Steel disconnects (09-Aug-1993 0920 -0400)
  supplying beer at a wedding / beer flavors for late october (09-Aug-1993 0940 -0400)
  Re: Prescription Beer (Jason Goldman)
  I want a new formula (Kieran O'Connor)
  Weihenstephan #68 (Jim Busch)
  Question about dry hopping ("Robert K. Toutkoushian")
  questions (Steve Lichtenberg x79300)
  Prescription Beer (John Adams)
  Re: Prescription Beer (Richard Kasperowski)
  A Draft Chili Beer? (dbell)
  Wet Milling (Thomas G. Moore)
  Propane vs NG / Used Cow stuff (npyle)
  NO wax nor flames from the "GREAT WHITE NORTH" -- just ICE. (PISICHKO)
  Re: Beer Rx (Jeff Frane)
  Prescription for Brew (ref. Domenick Venzia) (FARMERM)
  Address for American Brewmaster in Raleigh, NC? (John Glasscock)
  Honey Priming Thanks (CW06GST)
  Decoction/Brewing Techniques errors/Secondary Questions (korz)
  hops, 1007 (Russ Gelinas)
  Decoction Mashing ("CANNON_TOM")
  Light Beer for zymurgy ("Elizabeth Gold, zymurgy/Brewers")
  The 7th Annual Great Taste of the Midwest Beer Festival ("RIKI::EDGELL")
  Cold Plates (Drew Lynch)
  chipotle (LLAPV)
  chipotle (LLAPV)
  Mackeson Clone (geotex)
  RE: Perscription Beer (Marybeth_Raines)


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----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 9 Aug 1993 15:21:34 +0400 (EET-DST)
From: NIKKANEN at ntcclu.ntc.nokia.com (Kari Nikkanen, design engineer)
Subject: Bitter rye ale

I posted a question to r.c.b in june, asking if anyone knew
any beers that are brewed using rye malts, and also mentioned
that I had brewed one rye ale myself.  As an answer for those
who asked me about the recipe, here it comes:

Kari's Bitter Rye Ale

Ingredients (for 10 litres = 2.6 gallons):

4 pounds Finnish sahti malt mixture
(= 85% pilsner malt and 15% crystal malt)
7 ounces Finnish rye (kalja) malt
1/2 pound British crystal malt
1 ounce Northern Brewer hops (60 min boil)
1/4 ounce Fuggles hops (30 min boil)
1/4 ounce Fuggles hops (10 min boil)
1/3 cup priming sugar

yeast from a Tellford kit  (not really recommended,
I'll use liquid yeast next time)

Procedure: 1.5 hours mash at 140-145 , sparge water
temperature about 175 F.  Total boiling time 75 minutes.
Yeast was dehydrated 2-3 hours before pitching.  O.G was
about 1040-42.  Primary fermentation 4 days and secondary 7
days.

Comments:  There are some things I'll change when I brew my
next rye ale.  First, I'll do a temperature controlled mash
with starch conversion at about 150-155 deg F.  I won't use
more than 3-4 ounces rye malt, because the rye malt I use is
very dark and quite bitter, so 7 ounces is simply too much.
The hops I used were not exactly fresh, and didn't have any
alpha rating, so I think 1/2 ounce of fresh Northern Brewer
will be enough next time.  When this beer was only few weeks
old, it was far too bitter and sharp, and the bitterness of
rye malt was (too) clearly distinguisable.  So I let it age.
Now, after 7 months it's much smoother, but a bit thin.  It
has a nice amber colour and a smooth long lasting head, and
even my wife says it's quite drinkable, so with these
suggestions to improve it, I finally dare to post this
recipe. 
					Cheers!/Kari			

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Date: Mon, 9 Aug 93 
From: Tom.Weicht at arrc.ncsu.edu (respond to deb_neher at ncsu.edu)
Subject: S. delbrukii or S. cerevisiae? Also notes on S. uvarum, S.

carlsbergensis, S. pastorianus.

Re: Jim Busch and BT errors.
     I am a recent arrival to HBD.
     Saccharomyces delbrukii or S. cerevisiae?? I personally
believe both are technically incorrect. From the best that I have
been able to find in the mycological taxonomy literature, the true
name of this organism is Torulospora delbrukii, this is how the
American Type Culture Collection lists it which sparked my interest
and pursuit of this subject. An incorrect but often used synonym is
Saccharomyces. Both genera are in the family Saccharomycetaceae and
subfamily Saccharomycetoideae. The vegetative morphology of both
genera is identical. However, the genera differ in their mode of
conjugation and the morphology of sporulation (fide Barnett, Payne
and Yarrow, 1979, A Guide to Identifying and Classifying Yeast.
Cambridge University Press, New York. (fide = "on the authority
of")). I feel German Wheat Beer by Eric Warner had excellent
coverage of the biochemistry of weissbier yeast as it pertains to
the final product, but failed to give the yeasts the proper
taxonomic treatment. Yeasts from single cell cultures as those used
in fermentation do not under go their sexual cycle and as such a
brewer would not be able to distinguish T. delbrukii from S.
cerevisiae. INDUSTRIAL USERS OF MICROBES, BREWERS INCLUDED,
FREQUENTLY TEND TO IGNORE TAXONOMICAL NOMENCLATURE BECAUSE THEY ARE
MOST INTERESTED IN THE BIOCHEMICAL PROPERTIES IMPORTANT TO THEIR
PROCESS (Beer! in this case).
     An interesting, but just as esoteric discovery I have made
suggests that a better name for S. carlsbergensis (syn.  S.
uvarum) is S. pastorianus. Saccharomyces speciation based on
biochemistry has resulted in much confusion. Therefore, about every
ten years major reordering of the genus occurs. One Italian study
showed that in a university's industrial yeast collection, 144 out
of 1014 isolates had mutated to another species when nutritional
biochemistry was used for speciation. The result was that in The
Yeasts a Taxonomic study-III (Kreger van-Riji (Ed.), 1984) twenty
one species were lumped into S. cerevisiae. A review article
(Vaughan Martini and Martini, 1989, A proposal for correct
nomenclature of the domesticated species of the genus
Saccharomyces; in Biotechnology Applications in Beverage
Production) cited two studies using a molecular genetic technique,
DNA/DNA reassociation, which showed that the III and V (3rd and
5th) chromosomes of S. cerevisiae and S. carlsbergensis were
significantly different and a greater than 80% homology exists
between S. carlsbergensis and S. pastorianus. As S. pastorianus is
the older name it takes precedence (I am assuming and need to
verify before staking a reputation on this statement). To
oenologists S. pastorianus is an agent of wine fermentation in cold
climates.
     AS BREWERS SMALL OR LARGE OUR CONCERN IS THE BIOCHEMISTRY OF
THE YEAST AS IT PERTAINS TO THE FINAL PRODUCT. DON'T let the
taxonomy get you down, but don't slam somebody elses taxonomy when
basing an opinion from a single source either. From extensive
experience wading through the taxonomy of fungi more than one name
can be correct depending on the resource used for identification,
and names are never static. FOR A BREWER MORE INFORMATION IS
OBTAINED FROM AN ISOLATE'S DESIGNATION IN AN INDUSTRIAL CULTURE
COLLECTION SUCH AS "WEIHENSTEPHAN #68" THAN WHEN ONE WORRIES ABOUT
ITS TAXONOMIC POSITION IN THE MYCOLOGICAL NOMENCLATURE. A rose by
any other name...
     I really apologize for this long entry, but felt things were
so different from the current popular literature that explanations
and citations were needed.
               Tom Weicht



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Date: Mon, 9 Aug 93 06:23:10 PDT
From: 09-Aug-1993 0920 -0400 <ferguson at zendia.enet.dec.com>
Subject: Stainless Steel disconnects

I recently acquired some stainless steel disconnects (ball-lock) for my
cornelius kegging system.  The are _much_ smoother then the plastic
disconnects and, as far as i can tell, nearly indestructable.  I have a 
plastic one that I cracked (still usable though).  I highly recommend the
stainless steel disconnects.

plastic disc:    about   $3.20  
stainless:       about   $8.50

FYI for you keggers out there.


- --
JC Ferguson
ferguson at zendia.enet.dec.com

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Date: Mon, 9 Aug 93 06:45:38 PDT
From: 09-Aug-1993 0940 -0400 <ferguson at zendia.enet.dec.com>
Subject: supplying beer at a wedding / beer flavors for late october

I'm getting married in late october of this year and i'd like to supply
at least some if not all of the beer at my wedding.  With this in mind,
I have a few questions:

1)  In today's sue-your-neighbor environment, what kind of legal issues,
    insurance, etc. do i need to worry about if i serve my home-brewed
    beer at my wedding (on a private estate that is not owned by our
    families)?  This is in the state of Massachusetts.

2)  If it isn't much a legal hassle/worry, I'd like to think about brewing
    some stuff up now.  I'd like to brew one heavier brew, appropriate for
    the season, and perhaps one lighter beer, that would please the occasional
    beer drinker.  Suggestions?  I'm most comfortable w/ extract brewing,
    partial-mashes, and full mashes, in that order.


- --
JC Ferguson
ferguson at zendia.enet.dec.com


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Date: Mon, 9 Aug 93 07:49:00 -0600
From: Jason Goldman <jason at gibson.sde.hp.com>
Subject: Re: Prescription Beer

Domenick Venezia <venezia at zgi.com> writes:

> I was talking to an elderly gentleman today and he said
> that during prohibition the doctor had told his mother she
> had to drink beer every day, so he gave her a prescription for
> beer which she had to pick up at the drugstore.  Has anyone
> ever heard of this?  Why would a woman be medically required
> to take beer daily?  Vitamins?

I haven't heard of picking up a beer scrip at the pharmacy.  Of course,
we're not in prohibition now.

In any case, my mother's doctor advised her to start drinking beer.  In
her case it was because she was fairly underweight and the beer would
help the problem because of its high carbos. 


Jason "Unfortunately, I didn't inherit my mother's weight problem" Goldman
jason at gibson.sde.hp.com

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Date: Mon, 9 Aug 1993 10:05:30 -0400 (EDT)
From: Kieran O'Connor <koconnor at mailbox.syr.edu>
Subject: I want a new formula

Acutally, in repsonse to yesterdays question about a formula to convert
all grain recipes to extract--its all right there.

Using the preiously stated forumlas, just use the pts/lb from lquid malt
extract (36 or so) and dryied malt extract (45 or so) (see Miller, p 196).

Substitute into the formula--Degrees of extract= SG of Wort X Gallons
						______________________
						  lbs of malt.

Since you know the degree of extract, and the number of gallons--then your
'X' would be the pounds of grain needed.  it gets messy with dry and
piquid malt extract, but just average it. With this formula, you can
solvbe for any of the values--as long as you have the other three.	

Hope this helps.


Kieran O'Connor

E-Mail Address: koconnor at lor.syr.edu
Syracuse, N.Y. USA




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Date: Mon, 9 Aug 93 10:18:00 EDT
From: Jim Busch <busch at daacdev1.stx.com>
Subject: Weihenstephan #68

I have had some email over the number and taxonomy of the weizen strain,
Weihenstephan #68.  It is indeed 68, and as far as can be determined it
is indeed a S. Cervesae, and not a Delbreuckii:

<From Daniel_F_McConnell at mailgw.surg.med.umich.edu
<S. delbreuckii is indeed an appropriate synonym for Torulaspora delbreuckii,
but according to  Kreger-van Rij (1984) so are about 36 others!    Of the 59
Torulaspora delbreuckii strains studied by Kreger-van Rij for this
clasification,  NONE of them were isolated from beer of any type (rather: raw
came sugar, sheep milk, grape juice, dates, cucumber brine, sour figs.....). 
Thus I have my doubts that these yeasts make good beer.

Thanks Dan,
Jim Busch


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Date: Mon, 09 Aug 1993 09:17:28 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Robert K. Toutkoushian" <TOUTKOUS at vx.cis.umn.edu>
Subject: Question about dry hopping

Hello there:

	I have a question concerning dry hopping. This is my first shot at 
this, so please bear with me:

	I am in the process of making a Belgian Ale (just pitched it this 
morning :-) ), and the recipe calls for dry hopping w/2 oz. Fuggles hops.  
I understand that dry hopping involves adding hops to the wort after 
transferring it to a secondary fermenter.

	My problem is that I have a limited amount of brewing equipment, 
and no $$$ to expand right now.  I have been using a primary fermenter, and 
then once the SG has stabilized, transferred to a second carboy that has a 
spicket attached to the bottom for bottling (this carboy does not have a 
lid).  

	Anyway, I'm somewhat confused on the logistics of dry hopping, given 
this equipment.  From what I can gather, dry hopping usually involves 
transferring the wort to a secondary fermenter, adding the additional hops 
for a few days, and then transferring to something else for bottling.  I 
guess that I could transfer the wort to my 2nd carboy and add the hops, but 
w/o a lid I don't want to leave it sit around for any period of time exposed 
to the air.  I guess I could always transfer it back to the primary 
fermenter, but then I'd have to transfer it again for bottling. The other 
option that I see is to transfer the wort to the 2nd carboy once the SG has 
stabilized, add the hops, let it sit for an hour or two, and then bottle.  

	Does anyone have any suggestions?  I am a novice brewer (although 
I'm Armenian I'm not Papazian!!), so please excuse any real obvious errors 
in my brewing technique, etc. I could also skip the dry hopping altogether, 
but I'd like trying new things.  But, if no dry hopping is preferable to 
the above option of dry hopping for a short time, I'd like to know that as 
well.  Also, if dry hopping is done, and the wort is not filtered again, 
won't these hops get into the bottles??  Thanks in advance for any help...

Rob Toutkoushian
University of Minnesota
INTERNET: toutkous at vx.cis.umn.edu 

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Date: Mon, 9 Aug 93 09:57:45 -0400
From: steve at Pentagon-EMH6.army.mil (Steve Lichtenberg x79300)
Subject: questions

 Greetings All:
 
 While setting up a brew session this past weekend, I came up with a few
 questions that I was hoping the good people of the net would help me with.
 
 First-- 
I was going to start a batch of yeast in anticipation of brewing later
in the week.  When I went to get my petri dish with the culture on it 
out of the fridge, I noticed that the entire surface of the dish was 
covered with a green growth of mold :-(.  I had to start from a new slant
with a different strain than I had intended to ues.  Anyone have any 
suggestions on how to improve my techniques in handling cultures so that
this type of contamination does not happen again.

Second--
I purchased some plugs of Irish moss from a garden supply store about
a year ago.  These are incredible growers; going from <1" plugs when 
originally planted to > 18" clusters in just 1 year.  They make a great 
ground cover with a thick compact mass of growth about 1 1/2" tall.  A neat
addition to the landscape.  Now on to the question-- Anyone have any 
experience using fresh IM for brewing?  Do I need to dry it  or can it
be used right from the ground?  Any precautions to prevent contamination?
 
Third--
While watching "Mary Poppins" for the ten thousandth time (can you say 
parent of a three year old? ;-)), I noticed  a line that goes "and 
doesn't smell like barley water".  My first thought was that this must 
be an objectionable perfume but after thinking about it for a few minutes
I realized that this must be a reference to some type of alcoholic
beverage.  Anyone knowledgeable in early 20th century London slang
have any idea as to whether this refers to our favorite malt beverage 
or the other venerable potion made from barley malt (for those that 
can not figure out the obscure reference, I am talking about 'the good 
stuff' Scotch whiskey)..
 
Thanks for the help---
 Keep brewing-
 --S
   ^
 
 ENJOY LIFE---THIS IS NOT A REHEARSAL

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Date: Mon, 9 Aug 93 08:31:04 -0600
From: John Adams <j_adams at hpfcjca.sde.hp.com>
Subject: Prescription Beer

> I was talking to an elderly gentleman today and he said 
> that during prohibition the doctor had told his mother she
> had to drink beer every day, so he gave her a prescription for
> beer which she had to pick up at the drugstore.  Has anyone
> ever heard of this?  Why would a woman be medically required
> to take beer daily?  Vitamins?  


Was the Doctor also, by chance, the "pharmacist"?   I've heard other similar
stories regarding the medicinal properties of wine/beer (but only during 
prohibition).


John  8^)  Adams


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Date: Mon, 9 Aug 93 10:13:17 EDT
From: richk at icad.COM (Richard Kasperowski)
Subject: Re: Prescription Beer

   Domenick Venezia
   ZymoGenetics, Inc.
   venezia at zgi.com

Here in Massachusetts, that prohibition-era law still exists.  There
are a handfull of pharmacies in Boston (as reported in a recent
_Boston Globe_) at which you can fill a prescription for a bottle of
liquor.


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Date: Mon,  9 Aug 93 09:06:40 PDT
From: dbell at cup.portal.com
Subject: A Draft Chili Beer?

I've followed with interest the occasional thread on chili beers, 
and, since I've enjoyed a few Cave Creek bottles, I'd like to
put up a batch for a party about 10 weeks off. However, I prefer
to (Cornelius) keg my beers, and I'm wondering a bit about just
how much of what variet(ies) of peppers to use! I can certainly
add 48 peppers to the keg, but I think that might be a gross
overkill, besides adding that much more chance of contamination...

What about a chili extract in alcohol? Would enough of the
actives (capsaicins?) be dissolved? Or adding *a few* cut
up/open chilis to the keg? As far as contamination is concerned,
has anyone tried blanching the peppers in boiling water before
adding to the bottles?

Too many questions, not enough time to experiment! Hopefully
the collective wisdom of the Digest can shed some light...

Dave
dbell at cup.portal.com

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Date: Mon, 9 Aug 93 12:03:02 -0400
From: cm199 at cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Thomas G. Moore)
Subject: Wet Milling



In Eric Warner's German Wheat Beer book he mentions milling 
malted barley wet as to keep the husks intact. This will help com-
bat stuck run-offs during lautering. Has anyone used this method
with wheat beer decoctions? It sounds like a good idea. I was
wondering if this would be practical for the home brewer or even
needed. Comments?

- --
Will work for homebrew!
 
Thomas G. Moore
cm199 at cleveland.freenet.edu

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Date: Mon, 9 Aug 93 9:59:08 MDT
From: npyle at n33.stortek.com
Subject: Propane vs NG / Used Cow stuff

I have just acquired a 10 gallon stainless steel cream can from an old dairy.
This thing is tapered at the top, but I think it will be fine for a kettle,
which is what I wanted it for.  I fitted it with a nice 1/4 turn gas valve for
draining.  Now I need a way to heat it.  (I currently use a Bruheat as a boiler
but I'd like to speed it up and increase my boiler capacity).

I know all the talk about "Cajun Cooker"s and "King Kooker"s, etc. but I'm a
cheapskate.  Also, I like to tinker and I have a water heater element, designed
for Natural Gas.  I want to use propane because that is the easiest fuel to get
into my garage.  I've been told propane has more potential BTUs and therefore
needs more oxygen.  I think I verified this by firing up this NG element with
propane.  The flame was high, about 6 inches, and yellow.  Also, there was a
lot of soot forming as it burned.  I opened the air inlet all the way and it
helped a little, but it still didn't burn anywhere near clean.  I think I need
to decrease the aperture (jet) that the gas passes through so that I will need
less oxygen.  Does this sound correct?  Anyone else do this successfully?  How?
I'd appreciate any advice on this.

As an aside, old dairy equipment can be used in homebrewing in many areas:
boilers, tuns, even fermenters.  Most of it is stainless so look for it.  I got
a 10 gallon SS vessel for $50, with a lid.  Try to find that price in a yuppie
cooking catalog!

Cheers,
norm
- -- 
Norm Pyle, Staff Engineer
npyle at n33.stortek.com
Storage Technology Corporation
2270 South 88th Street
Louisville, CO 80028-0211
(303) 673-8884

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Date: Mon, 09 Aug 1993 11:29:23 -0600 (CST)
From: PISICHKO at UWPG02.UWINNIPEG.CA
Subject: NO wax nor flames from the "GREAT WHITE NORTH" -- just ICE.

Practical jokers aside, this forum should nor degenerate into a free
place for verbal fisticuffs. I enjoy a practical joke - even if it leads
to an earfull. However, like it or not, others do not. Lets keep it clean
please. Not everyone has equal brewing skills nor other skills. Many are
reading this forum to learn from others. If anyone really wants to help
someone with their brewing problem/ math skills then contact the "needy
one" by private e-mail. Be a good samaritan and save us some time and
bandwidth.

The icepack seems to be flowing south of the 49th parallel. Several weeks 
ago while in a drought of home-brewed beer, I broke down and bought a couple
of 12-packs of so-called ice beer. It was on sale for 12.?? (Canadian dollars)
per 12 pack. Remember we also pay province and federal tax (7% +7%) on this
to help fund our "free" medical system and other social nets. Now to get back
on subject -- this ice beer was quite smooth, and everyone who drank it at
my home in a "blind test" liked it. The complicating factor was that the beer
was free. Nevertheless, this "ice beer" is certainly smoother in my opinion
that many other Canadian beers.

Now that I have bottled four different batches of beer, I can forget this 
commercial stuff and start drinking "real beer". After all, winter is comming
- -- there will be snow here in less than 3 months. Right now there are flooded
basements due to all the rain, but my sump pump is helping to keep mine dry.

As Charlie P. has written   "Relax, have a homebrew"

Ken P.

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Date: Mon, 9 Aug 1993 09:45:57 -0700 (PDT)
From: gummitch at techbook.com (Jeff Frane)
Subject: Re: Beer Rx

On Prescription Beer
> 
> I was talking to an elderly gentleman today and he said 
> that during prohibition the doctor had told his mother she
> had to drink beer every day, so he gave her a prescription for
> beer which she had to pick up at the drugstore.  Has anyone
> ever heard of this?  Why would a woman be medically required
> to take beer daily?  Vitamins?  
> 
I don't know if I want to weigh in on any answer that implies I'm an
"elderly gentleman", but... although my mom didn't carry me during
prohibition, and didn't need a prescription, her doctor did recommend
she drink beer during the period she was nursing.  The idea, as I
recall, was that beer encouraged "let-down", in other words, it helped
her relax and increased milk flow to her handsome baby child.  It is
possible, I suppose, that children of mothers who breastfed while
drinking beer turn into beer snobs; I don't have enough data.

- --Jeff


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Date: Mon, 9 Aug 1993 14:11:48 -0400 (EDT)
From: FARMERM at mcl.saic.com
Subject: Prescription for Brew (ref. Domenick Venzia)

		In response to Domenick Venezia's question about a 
	prescription for beer. Yes, My wife's grandmother, who
	lives in South America, was prescribed a dark beer w/ a
	raw egg everyday. The dark beer in South America is 
	different, however. The refer to it as "malta" and has no
	alcohol in it, its just used for cooking. What the purpose
	of this is, I'm sorry I can't say. 
		Speaking of weird stories from prohibition:
	I spoke with my grandfather last year about the strange things
	that went on at that time. There is one incident he mentioned
	that really sticks in my mind. He said that during prohibition,
 	people would line up at hardware stores and buy denatured 
	alcohol and then go to the grocery store to buy several loaves
	of bread. They would take the alcohol and pour it from one end
	the loaf of bread to the other. After filtering it through
	a few times, it was good enough to drink. Mmm Mmm.
	
	Happy, Happy
		Beer, Beer
	Mike F.

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Date: Mon, 9 Aug 93 13:11:49 EST
From: John Glasscock <JGLASSCO at ucs.indiana.edu>
Subject: Address for American Brewmaster in Raleigh, NC?


Can someone from the RTP area (Research Triangle Park in 
Raleigh-Durham-Chapel Hill, NC) e-mail me the new address for 
American Brewmaster in Raleigh, please?  I moved and lost my 
price list for them, and have found them to have the best prices 
and best quality overall for (at least my extract) brewing 
supplies.

Thanks.
<=^=> <=^=> <=^=> <=^=> <=^=> <=^=> <=^=> <=^=> <=^=> <=^=> 
John Glasscock           Ether_Dog^:>
Indiana University       jglassco at silver.ucs.indiana.edu (unix)
100 N. Jefferson         JGLASSCO at UCS.INDIANA.EDU        (vax)
Bloomington, IN  47408   tel: 812-336-0246

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Date:        Mon, 09 Aug 93 14:21:00 EDT
From: CW06GST <CW06GST at SJUMUSIC.STJOHNS.EDU>
Subject: Honey Priming Thanks

     A couple of months ago I had asked about using honey
as a priming agent.  Thanks to those of you who responded
to my post and prevented me from making glass grenades.

     As it turns out, using honey as a primer works very well,
and follows the same guidelines as any other agent.

     I used 7/8 of a cup of Golden Blossom (tm) honey, and
had good carbonation in about ten days.  The bubbles were a
little different than if using corn sugar or DME.  It was a
lot like champagne bubbles or a sparkling mead.  In any event
it was an interesteing effect and it tasted quite good.

     Here is a copy of the recipe:

3.3 lbs Munton & Fison light malt extract
3.3 1bs Munton & Fison wheat extract (1/2 malt, 1/2 wheat)
3 lbs clover honey (generic supermarket brand)
2 oz. styrian goldings hops (plug) for boil-60 min
1 oz  same for last 2 min
2 pkgs Cooper's dry yeast (rehydrated)
7/8 cup honey for priming

     I had no idea what this beer was going to turn out like,
but it made what I would consider a very fine IPA.  Original
gravity was 1.048.  Final gravity was 1.008.


     Thanks agian for all the help!

Erik Zenhausern
Bronxville, NY

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Date: Mon, 9 Aug 93 13:59 CDT
From: korz at iepubj.att.com
Subject: Decoction/Brewing Techniques errors/Secondary Questions

Jim writes (quoting me):
>>4. decoction  --  dough-in or mash-in with the full mash volume and then
>>remove parts of the mash to a kettle in which this "mash fraction," which
>>is called a decoction, is heated to boiling and then returned to the rest
>>of the mash to raise it's temperature.  There are several variations to
>>this (double (two decoctions), triple (three decoctions), etc.) in which
>>some of the decoctions are replaced by infusions or the entire mash is
>>moved to a kettle and then direct heat is used in place of one or more
>>decoctions.  It is interesting to mention that decoction mashing can
>>be done WITHOUT A THERMOMETER, given enough experience, which I've read
>>is the reason that it was invented (they did not HAVE thermometers at the
>>time).
 
>Almost correct.  The "mash fraction" that is boiled is also raised to a
>saacharafication rest temp, usually 147-158 or both, and after conversion,
>is then denatured through boiling.  This rest is often ommitted by home 
>brewers and may result in lost efficiency.  Note that in a weizen decoction 
>program, the main mash sits at protein rest temps for over an hour while the
>mash fraction is raised, held, then boiled.
 
Oops.  You're right.  On the other hand, the way you worded it, may be
unclear to those unfamiliar.  Permit me to paraphrase Jim:

	The "mash fraction" is moved to a kettle and it's temperature
	raised to 147-158 for a saccharification rest.  It is then
	heated again to boiling before being returned to the main mash.

****************************************

In Marybeth Raines' article on Sanitation, it's a real shame that she
failed to mention iodophor and a recently new sanitizing agent, marketed
under the name "One Step," which is peroxide-based and comes in powder
form.  I would have been very interested in her recommended contact times
for iodophor and OneStep.  I haven't forgotten that I promised to take
all the info I've collected from HBD and personal correspondence regarding
sanitation for homebrewers and post it.  I still intend to do this, but
the arrival of "One Step" has thrown an monkeywrench in the cogs and
delayed my posting.

Jim writes:
>Anyone else catch the mistakes in this issue?  Dave Miller claims
>that hefeweizens are made with S. Delbrukii, NOT!  It is S. Cerveasae,
>see Eric Warners book, Brewing Wheat Beers.

also
Tony writes (from Eric's book):
> - You need the right yeast.  One doesn't need s. delbruckii, just an
>ale yeast with the right flavoring properties.

I've read that S. Delbrukii is used for German Weizens in numerous books
and magazines.  Eric Warner's book is the only one which reportedly
contradicts this.  Despite Eric's proven knowledge of German Wheat beers,
the data seems quite heavily stacked against him.  Comments?

One piece of data from me in Eric's defense: the Troubleshooting Issue of
Zymurgy lists wheat malt as a source for phenolic (clove-like) character.
Perhaps this is the true source of the clove-like character in German
Weizens or maybe it's a combination of this and the yeast.  This is
getting complicated no?  I've yet to find the time to read "German Wheat,"
so I'm afraid I can only go on pieces of info as posted by Jim and Tony.

*******************
John writes:
>1.  Is racking to a secondary fermenter only/mostly used for Ale yeasts,
>Lager Yeasts, or both (ie. yeast is not the criteria)?  When (and other
>adverbs) do I need to rack and secondary ferment?

In my opinion, it's not the yeast that you use (some use lager yeasts at
ale temperatures), but rather the time that the beer will stay in the
primary.  If you will be bottling/kegging within two to three weeks of
pitching, I feel that going to a secondary is an unnecessary sanitation
risk.  If you're adding fruit or making a lager (at, say 45F), then
I think that a secondary would be a good idea.

>2.  According to Dave Miller, he racks when the bubbles slow down to 1/ 30
>seconds (I think).  What span of time has passed (typically) 3 days, a
>week?

It depends on the temperature, how much oxygen you gave the yeast, the
strain of yeast and the amount of nutrients in the wort (worts with a
high percentage of sucrose or corn sugar will have less nutrients).  As
reported recently, Wyeast 1007 (German Ale) is really a quick yeast.
Many dry yeasts are very quick fermenters.  I've used a yeast that I've
cultured from an Orval bottle that regularly takes two months to ferment
out 1055 wort.  Temperatures in the low- to mid-60s will give you slower
ferments, whereas temps in the high-70s can ferment-out the beer in a day.  
If you don't give the yeast a good supply of oxygen, they can take much
longer to complete fermentation.

>3. Okay, approx 3 days - a week has passed in the primary fermenter (white
>bucket) and I am racking to a glass carboy (6 gal). At this time I would be
>adding my dry Hops. Do I need a Blow-Off Tube?  Do I need the Brew-Cap?

If you are not adding any fermentables (like fruit) and you have waited
till the fermentation has mostly subsided, then you don't need a blowoff
tube.  A BrewCap(tm) could be used (I'm not sure about 6-gallon carboys)
if you want to bottom-crop yeast from the secondary, but you don't *need*
anything other than an airlock.
 
>4. After secondary ferm'g of 2 weeks, I will rack to my bottling pail and
>prime. Is oxygen damage my main concern, or is lambic still a problem?

A small amount of oxygen should not be a problem, but you should still
try to minimize aeration as much as you can.  I don't understand your
"is lambic still a problem?" (Personally, if all my beers tasted like
lambieks, I would consider it a mixed blessing!)  Do you mean "can I still
infect my beer?"  The answer to this question is most definately yes.
Assuming you did not infect the beer with attenuative wild yeast or bacteria 
earlier in your process, there will be some unfermentable sugars/dextrins
in your beer.  These can still be consumed by some wild yeasts and bacteria.
Granted, at this point in the process, they will add less perceptable flavors/
aromas to your beer than if you infected at pitching time (when there were
a lot more sugars and less alcohol and a higher pH), but you can still
have problems with gushers.

Al.

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Date:    Mon, 9 Aug 1993 15:12:43 -0400 (EDT)
From: R_GELINAS at UNHH.UNH.EDU (Russ Gelinas)
Subject: hops, 1007

   Wyeast 1007 is not their "alt" yeast.  It is called "German Ale".
Their alt yeast has a different number (1338?).  I haven't used 1007
in a couple of years, and the porter made with it is what I remember,
possibly because it came as a surprise that it worked so well.  If
I were to use it again, I'd probably try for a dry, hoppy, very pale
ale, sort of a pilsner-ale.

   Speaking of hops, try putting a freshly picked hops cone into a
bottle of beer.  Instant dry hop aroma, and even some noticeable bitterness 
if the beer is one of those "super-premium-extra-light-draft" US brews.
A bottle works better than a glass; the cone gets sloshed around as
the bottle is tipped, and the neck concentrates the aroma.  Try it.

Russ G.
esp/opal
unh

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Date: 9 Aug 93 10:48:56 EST
From: "CANNON_TOM" <CANNON_TOM at hq.navsea.navy.mil>
Subject: Decoction Mashing

Message Creation Date was at  9-AUG-1993 15:29:00
      
          I've been reading the recent threads on decoction mashing
          which is convenient in that we will be trying our first
          decoction mash on our Dopplebock this weekend.  I've read
          Noonan and Warner and I was wondering if any of you HBDers
          that have tried decoction mashing have any other practical
          tips that will help us ensure success on our first attempt.

          TIA
          Tom Cannon


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Date: 09 Aug 93 15:57:12 EDT
From: "Elizabeth Gold, zymurgy/Brewers" <75250.1351 at CompuServe.COM>
Subject: Light Beer for zymurgy

Help!  Please send me your recipes for light beer as well as any quick info on
the style.  They're needed to accompany an article in zymurgy.  Your haste
would be MOST appreciated!
All the best,
Elizabeth Gold, zymurgy editor-in-chief

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Date: Mon, 9 Aug 1993 15:02:09 -0500 (CDT)
From: "RIKI::EDGELL" at UWMFE.NEEP.WISC.EDU
Subject: The 7th Annual Great Taste of the Midwest Beer Festival

ANNOUNCING....

           The 7th Annual Great Taste of the Midwest Beer Festival

WHEN:  Saturday, Aug 21    1993,  1-6 pm
WHERE:  Olin Terrace, Madison, Wisconsin
COST:  $13 in advance, $15 at the door

Sample over 60 different beers fresh from the brewery! Tempt your palate and
educate your taste buds with ales, lagers, pilsners, stouts and more. All
served by over 30 Midwest brewpubs, micros and regional breweries.

Festival tickets include a commemorative beer glass and UNLIMITED beer samples

Tickets are available by phone (608-256-1100) with MC/VISA

Proceeds benefit Community Radio - WORT

Organized by The Madison Homebrewers and Tasters Guild.

Participating breweies in this year's beer festival:

August Schell Brewing Co.
Broad Ripple Brewing Co.
Capital Brewing Co.
Cherryland Brewing Co.
Chicago Brewing Co.
Detroit & Mackinac Brewing Co.
Dubuque Brewing & Bottling Co.
Fitzpatrick Brewing Co.
Frankenmith Brewing Co.
Golden Prairie brewing Co.
Goose Island Brewing Co.
James Page Brewing Co.
J.D. Nicks Brewpub
Joe's Brewing Co.
Joseph Huber Brewing Co.
Kalamazoo Brewing Co.
Lakefront Brewing Co.
Lienenkugels Brewing Co.
Melbourne's Brewing Co.
Midcoast Brewing Co.
Millrose Brewing Co.
Minnesota Brewing Co.
Pavichevich Brewing Co.
Pete's Brewing Co.
R.J. Ginseng Beer Co.
Spanish Peaks Brewing Co.
Sprecher Brewing Co.
Stevens Point Brewing Co.
St. Louis Brewing Co.
Summit Brewing Co.
Water Street Brewing Co.
Woodstock Brewing Co.


IMPORTANT NOTES:

1) We sold out shortly after opening last year. So, if you come from out of
town, buy your tickets in advance! We don't want to have to turn away people
who have driven long distances but we will have to if we are full.

2) The festival is at Olin TERRACE not Olin PARK (also in Madison). Olin
Terrace is right downtown at Wilson St. and Martin Luther King Jr. Blvd. It is
just two blocks from the State Capital Dome and thus easy to find.

3) As mentioned above the ticket cost covers a beer glass with this year's logo
and all the beer you want to sample. There is no messing with beer tickets or
any charge for additional tickets etc. The only additional cost would be if you
purchased brewery merchandise or food from our food vendors (recommended if
you are sampling over 60 beers!)

4) The date listed for our event in "Brewing Technology" is completely wrong. 
I believe it is the date we used 3 years ago which is backed up by their 
calling it the 4th and not the 7th also. We at the club have no idea where they
got that date and wish to apologize for any inconvenience that may ensue.

5) What great call letters for the community radio station that proceeds are 
donated to, WORT, eh!

For further information Contact: 

By Mail - The Madison Homebrewers and Tasters Guild, 
          PO Box 1365, 
          Madison WI 53701

By Phone - 608-256-1100

By e-mail - edgell at uwmfe.neep.wisc.edu



Dana Edgell,
Madison Homebrewers and Tasters Guild
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
   The Country that controls Magnetism can Control the World!
         - Dick Tracy
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
edgell at uwmfe.neep.wisc.edu

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Date: Mon, 09 Aug 93 13:15:39 -0700
From: Drew Lynch <drew at chronologic.com>
Subject: Cold Plates

  I recently acquired an 18"x24" Cornelius 3 line cold plate.  It's
pretty grungy, so I filled it with TSP solution an let it soak for a
while.  Should this be enough, or is there some other, more potent,
cleaner I could use?  I don't think it would be possible to feed any
sort of brush through it.

  Also, this thing is more than I need.  I would be open to trading it
for some combination of smaller cold plate(s) and cornelius kegs.
Email or call me if you are interested.


			      Drew Lynch
		Chronologic Simulation, Los Altos, Ca.
			  (415)965-3312 x18
			 drew at chronologic.com



	

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Date: Monday,  9 August 93 15:20:23 CST
From: LLAPV at utxdp.dp.utexas.edu
Subject: chipotle

Howdy,

In HBD #1198, I reported on my serrano beer being a success.  Saturday
afternoon, my brother & I popped open the two bottles of chipotle beer we
set up.  Bad mistake.  Do not put a chipotle into your bottle of beer.  It
will make a nasty concoction that is undrinkable, unpleasant, & all around
unlikable.

As I reported on the serranos, the beer tasted fine, the pepper came through
nicely but not overpowering, & all in all it was a success.  We also added
one chipotle each to two bottles of the same pilsner.  Twenty days later, we
tried them.  Both beers had changed from the nice golden color to brown,
one looking like an American bock, the other not quite as dark.  Both were
flat, even though they gushed when opened.  The lighter colored of the two
was so spicy that it could not be drunk (we think there was a crack in the
pepper, allowing the seeds direct contact with the beer).  We were unable to
determine quality of taste of this bottle.  The darker one was not too spicy.
However, it was sweetish in taste, & not in a pleasant sense.  The smokiness
came out, but again, it just didn't work.  It was as if it was a completely
different beer from the original, which was a nice, well balanced pilsner.
All in all a bad idea.

I did discover that beers bottled with chili peppers do need to be consumed
rather quickly.  The first serrano bottle I tried was 17 days after
bottling, & was spiced just right.  I tried a second one last night, 21 days
after bottling, & it was pushing the limits on the spiciness scale for me.
A friend who also enjoys spicy foods agreed with me.  This is something to
keep in mine if you are planning the bottling method of chili beer.

So, to sum it up:  Don't consider chipotles.  Serranos may be washed in
water, dropped into the bottle & the primed beer racked onto them.  Drink
within 3 weeks, unless you have a particularly hardy palate.

BTW, I'm taking a trip to Bastrop, TX in September.  Anyone know of any good
brewpubs, breweries, expensive bottled beer bars, hop farms, barley farms,
yeast labs, glassworks or beer coaster factories worth visiting near there?

Happy brewing,

Alan, Austin

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Date: Monday,  9 August 93 15:20:23 CST
From: LLAPV at utxdp.dp.utexas.edu
Subject: chipotle

Howdy,

In HBD #1198, I reported on my serrano beer being a success.  Saturday
afternoon, my brother & I popped open the two bottles of chipotle beer we
set up.  Bad mistake.  Do not put a chipotle into your bottle of beer.  It
will make a nasty concoction that is undrinkable, unpleasant, & all around
unlikable.

As I reported on the serranos, the beer tasted fine, the pepper came through
nicely but not overpowering, & all in all it was a success.  We also added
one chipotle each to two bottles of the same pilsner.  Twenty days later, we
tried them.  Both beers had changed from the nice golden color to brown,
one looking like an American bock, the other not quite as dark.  Both were
flat, even though they gushed when opened.  The lighter colored of the two
was so spicy that it could not be drunk (we think there was a crack in the
pepper, allowing the seeds direct contact with the beer).  We were unable to
determine quality of taste of this bottle.  The darker one was not too spicy.
However, it was sweetish in taste, & not in a pleasant sense.  The smokiness
came out, but again, it just didn't work.  It was as if it was a completely
different beer from the original, which was a nice, well balanced pilsner.
All in all a bad idea.

I did discover that beers bottled with chili peppers do need to be consumed
rather quickly.  The first serrano bottle I tried was 17 days after
bottling, & was spiced just right.  I tried a second one last night, 21 days
after bottling, & it was pushing the limits on the spiciness scale for me.
A friend who also enjoys spicy foods agreed with me.  This is something to
keep in mine if you are planning the bottling method of chili beer.

So, to sum it up:  Don't consider chipotles.  Serranos may be washed in
water, dropped into the bottle & the primed beer racked onto them.  Drink
within 3 weeks, unless you have a particularly hardy palate.

BTW, I'm taking a trip to Bastrop, TX in September.  Anyone know of any good
brewpubs, breweries, expensive bottled beer bars, hop farms, barley farms,
yeast labs, glassworks or beer coaster factories worth visiting near there?

Happy brewing,

Alan, Austin

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Date: Mon, 9 Aug 93 16:26:53 -0400
From: <geotex at engin.umich.edu>
Subject: Mackeson Clone



Hi all!

I really want to brew a Mackeson XXX Stout Clone!

There are a few recipes in The Cat's Meow II that
are supposed to be like Mackeson.  
 
Has anyone tried any of these?

Does anyone have a recipe they they consider very much
like delicious Mackeson?

Please respond by e-mail or to HBD if you think anyone 
else is interested.

Alex
geotex at engin.umich.edu


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Date: Mon, 9 Aug 93 17:04:48 PDT
From: raines at radonc.ucla.edu (Marybeth_Raines)
Subject: RE: Perscription Beer

Domenick Venezia recently wrote:

>I was talking to an elderly gentleman today and he said
>that during prohibition the doctor had told his mother she
>had to drink beer every day, so he gave her a prescription for
>beer which she had to pick up at the drugstore.  Has anyone
>ever heard of this?  Why would a woman be medically required
>to take beer daily?  Vitamins?  

Some of my british brewing partners contend that Guinness is still 
prescribed to women in Britian as a supplement for anemia.  Presumably 
Guiness is rich in iron.  They say that many times in the pubs you can 
see older women sippin' a pint of Guinness, some of whom don't really 
care for it.  IMHO it sure beats Geritol.


M.B. Raines    

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End of HOMEBREW Digest #1200, 08/10/93