FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Rob Gardner, Digest Coordinator


Contents:
  Posting (Norman Farrell)
  Pumpkin Brown Ale Request (EZIMMERM)
  Beer in Boston ("Stephen Schember")
  Reader/Indexer for Yeast and Hop FAQ (EZIMMERM)
  Lautering / Discoloration (npyle)
  Instant carbonation (Tim Anderson)
  GABF info (inline)
  Heineken Paranoid of Micros? (Mark Garetz)
  Brown Porter / Commercial examples? (Lee=A.=Menegoni)
  help (hhoppe)
  Malt Liquor (Troy Howard)
  Klages or not to Klages (korz)
  Homebrew Digest #1225 (mike.keller)
  oring challenge results (donald oconnor)
  Yeast Washing (The Ghost In The Machine)
  slow sparges (Chuck Wettergreen)
  thin part boiling in decoction (ROB THOMAS)


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----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 14 Sep 93 07:39:22 CDT
From: nfarrell at ppco.com (Norman Farrell)
Subject: Posting

I recently made a bathc of steam beer and found myself with a mas temp that
I thought was 4 to 5 degrees F lower than I wanted.  I did not want to add
more water and dilute the enzyme concentration.  I removed 2 quarts of the 
mash in a glass measuring cup and heated in the microwave for 7 minutes.
This was long enough to reach boiling.  I returned the "decoction" to the
main mash stirred in and removed another 2 quarts and heated.

It took 3 "decoctions" to get the bulk temperature where I wanted.  7
minutes in the microwave was required to boil each time.  The resulting 
beer was wonderful particularly full bodied/satisfying mouthfeel. It was
better in this regard than other beers I have made with inffusion or
step mashing.

Was the amount and heating time I used sufficient to account for the good
results?  Has anyone else tried this?  If it is more likely that everthing
in the process just came together to yield a great beer (ie. my 
decoctions were probably of little effect), how long would I have to heat 
(and what % of the mash) to do some good?  BTW the brew length was 5 gal.
and the OG was about 1.050.  Thanks for any hints/opinions.

Norman    (nfarrell at ppco.com)

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Date: Tue, 14 Sep 1993 08:16:02 -0600 (MDT)
From: EZIMMERM at UWYO.EDU
Subject: Pumpkin Brown Ale Request

Salutations!
   I'm going to brew a Brown Ale with some pumpkin flavor and because
I can't find a source of fresh pumpkins I will be using canned. Yes, I
am using pure canned pumpkin ( no xtra water, salt, chemicals, etc. ).
What I need is an idea of how much canned pumpkin would be nice for
a Brown Ale of aoubt 1.04 to 1.06 OG and if anyone can reccomend some
hops for this. I was thinking finnishing with Fuggles... Any ideas?
Gene in Laramie

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Date: 14 Sep 1993 10:40:05 -0500
From: "Stephen Schember" <stephen_schember at terc.edu>
Subject: Beer in Boston

                       Subject:                              
Time:10:16 AM
  OFFICE MEMO          Beer in Boston                        
Date:9/14/93
The Boston metro area now boasts four brewpubs. The original is the
Commonwealth Brewery on Portland St. by the Boston Garden (bitter and
barley wine best choices here imho, but everthing pretty dang good).
The
Boston Beer Works is on Brookline Ave. just across from Fenway park
(IPA 
and Hercules strong recommended).  The Cambridge Brewing Company is
in Kendall Square, Cambridge (great pale ale and if you're lucky a
sublime 
high octane version of the same, Big Man's Triple). Rounding out the
list is
John Harvard's on Dunster St,. Harvard Square, Cambridge (good Stout
esp.
if on "Cask"). The Sam Adams Brewery tour is allways worth the trip
to Jamaica Plain (a borough of Boston). While you are in J.P. stop at
Doyles
Cafe on Washington St., for more Sam Adams limited runs
(Dunklewiezen,
Cranberry "Lambic", etc.), a healthy selction of taps, and ancient
Boston bar atmosphere. Other recommended watering holes: Cornwall's
in Kenmore Sq., The Sunset G+T(71 Taps!) on Brighton Ave. in
Brighton.
 



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Date: Tue, 14 Sep 1993 08:41:17 -0600 (MDT)
From: EZIMMERM at UWYO.EDU
Subject: Reader/Indexer for Yeast and Hop FAQ

Salutations!
   I was thinking of writing an indexer or data base manager for the
Yeast and upcomming Hop FAQs. I would provide the C source code as well
as a compiled x86 IBM version for those of us more in the brewing than
computing circles. Before I start work on this, however, I want to 
know if anyone else is going to do the same thing as I'm a buisy student and
would hate to waste my time solving a problem someone else is solving.
   So, anyone else doing something like this or shall I have a go at
it?
Gene in Laramie

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Date: Tue, 14 Sep 93 9:23:37 MDT
From: npyle at n33.stortek.com
Subject: Lautering / Discoloration

Gene asks about lautering wrt recirculation.  He assumes most all-grainers just
sparge without recirculation.  It is my perception that most all-grainers _do_
recirculate the wort.  FWIW, I recirculate the wort until it runs relatively
clear, but I don't go to a lot of trubble.  I seem to recall Micah Millspaw
advocating no recirculation at all; something about giving the proteins and
other hot break material a nucleation point.  Contrary to the popular beliefs,
he claimed clearer beer than with recirculation.  Anyone tasted Micah's beer?
Is Bob Jones still on the digest?

Scott asks about discoloring his wife's cooler with wort.  I haven't really
worried about it since I bought the cooler especially for brewing, but I
haven't noticed any real discoloration problems.  I suspect one batch wouldn't
do it any harm, but I would be careful to keep the temperature below about
170F.  Warping of the plastic would probably bug her more than the color.

Now that lager season is here on the front range in Colorado (yesterday was
first snow!), I'm thinking again about a dopplebock.  Anyone with a good
all-grain DB recipe?  Of course, if it was to taste like Salvator I wouldn't
mind ;-).

Cheers,
norm
- -- 
Norm Pyle, Staff Engineer         Head Brewer,
Storage Technology Corporation    Pyledriver Brewery, A Non-Profit Organization
2270 South 88th Street            1500 Elmhurst Drive
Louisville, CO 80028-0211         Longmont, CO 80503-2323
(303) 673-8884                    npyle at n33.stortek.com

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Date: Tue, 14 Sep 93 08:43:19 PDT
From: tima at wv.MENTORG.COM (Tim Anderson)
Subject: Instant carbonation

I recently had an experience that I thought was worth sharing.

I made a pretty ordinary pale ale from DME and adjunct grains.  The process was
the same as all my batches.  I pitched a large quantity (2 liters) of actively
chugging starter (Wyeast London Ale) and aerated with wild abandon.  But then
I always do.

Fermentation started within a few hours, which, of course, had nothing to do
with my method of aeration.  After 9 days, the bubbling in the air lock was
getting slow, and since I had a window of opportunity to bottle, and wouldn't
again for at least another week, I went ahead and did it.  I primed with corn
sugar. I always prime with corn sugar.  I'm proud of priming with corn sugar.

Now here's the good part.  The beer was fully carbonated and fairly tasty in
2 days (!).  My first reaction was, "Oh shit."  I braced for glass grenades.
But they never came.  It's been 6 weeks since bottling, and the beer is just
fine.  Not over-carbonated, no gushers, no off flavors.  Pretty boring stuff.

I am curious why what usually takes a couple of weeks would occur in 2 days
without ill-effect.  My hypothesis is that I caught the yeast at just the right
moment when it was effectively done with the food at hand, was sitting back
with its feet up, enjoying a good cigar and snifter of brandy, but had not yet
gone dormant.  What's this, dessert?  Corn sugar, my favorite!  If so, I
suppose the timing was lucky and had I bottled just a bit sooner, my closet
would look like a war zone.

By the way, this is a basement closet that maintains a constant 62F.


tim


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Date:          Tue, 14 Sep 93 11:09:43 CDT
From: inline at vnet.IBM.COM
Subject:       GABF info

Can anyone tell me what one of these festivals is like ? With the airline
price wars starting up it might be worth a trip to Denver to check this out.
Are there cheap hotels within walking distance of the festival ? I'm not sure
I would want to be driving around (in the snow even!) if I'd been tasting all
day. Email answers are fine.
Thanks !

**************************************************************
 Chris Williams
 inline at vnet.ibm.com
**************************************************************

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Date: Tue, 14 Sep 93 9:21:47 PDT
From: Mark Garetz <mgaretz at hoptech.com>
Subject: Heineken Paranoid of Micros?

Has anyone else heard Heineken's "swipe" at Microbeers
in their latest radio ad?  They have really taken a good
one at our friend Jim Koch:

Guy to bartender: "Hey Tom!  What's this Benedict Arnold
Pittsburgh Lager?"

Mark


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Date: Tue, 14 Sep 93 11:48:56 EDT
From: Lee=A.=Menegoni at nectech.com
Subject: Brown Porter / Commercial examples?

What commercially available brews are examples of the "Brown Porter" style
as definded by the AHA?  
Brown Porter: Medium to dark brown.  No roast barley or strong burnt malt 
character. Light to medium body.  Low to medium malt sweetness.  Medium hop 
bitterness.  Hop flavor and aroma; none to medium.  Fruitiness/esters OK.
Low diacetyl OK. OG 1.040-50, % Alc/Vol 4.6-6%, IBU 20-30, Color SRM  20-35

Lee Menegoni  Lmenegoni at nectech.com

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Date: Tue, 14 Sep 93 13:26:43 EDT
From: hhoppe at motown.ge.com
Subject: help

help

hhoppe at motown.ge.com

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Date: Tue, 14 Sep 93 12:21:58 PDT
From: troy at scubed.scubed.com (Troy Howard)
Subject: Malt Liquor


Al writes:

>There are even stupider misuses of names (such as the misuse of the word 
>"ale" in Texas)  <snip>

Hey! Don't leave us all in suspense, out with the ugly truth.  Enquiring 
minds want to know.  What exactly did the Texas legislature do with "ale"?


Troy


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Date: Tue, 14 Sep 93 16:19 CDT
From: korz at iepubj.att.com
Subject: Klages or not to Klages

Well, I guess it's time to eat crow... the latest issue of Brewer's
Digest (Aug `93) completely contradicts my previous assertion that
Klages is no longer grown in the US.  It apparently is being grown
in 1993 along with 12 other varieties of malting barley.  The seven
6-row varieties of malting barley being grown in the US in 1993 are:
Azure, B1602, B2601, Excel, Morex, Robust and Russell.  The six 2-row
varieties are: B1202, Crest, Crystal, Harrington, Klages and Moravian III.

Klages appears to be grown in the following states this year: Washington,
Oregon, California, Idaho, Montana, Wyoming and Colorado.  From the map
in the article, it appears that there is little overlap between barley
strains grown in the Western States (those mentioned above) and the
Midwestern States (N & S Dakota, Minnesota, Wisconsin and Michigan).
Excel and Morex appear to be the only ones grown in both the W and MW.
Strangely, there are no 2-row varieties grown in the MW this year!

Sorry about the misinformation.  I had heard from various sources, for
two years in a row now, that Klages was discontinued in 1990.  Unless it
has just rebounded in popularity, I was given incorrect info.

Al.

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Date: Wed, 15 Sep 93 03:04:00 BST
From: mike.keller at genie.geis.com
Subject: Homebrew Digest #1225

>From HBD 1225:
 
 ||From: CCAMDEN at delphi.com                                      ||
 ||Subject: Cake mixes, and other half-baked ideas               ||
 
 ||The first is a "cake mix" question.  I recently received a    ||
 ||catalog from The Home Brewery.  They have a liquid malt       ||
 ||extract that they call Yellow Dog(tm).  It is 87% 2-row       ||
 ||Klages, 12% malted wheat and 1% chocolate malt.  I find       ||
 ||myself intrigued by this product.  Has anyone in HBD-land     ||
 ||ever used Yellow Dog and if so, what are your comments?       ||
 
On GEnie, we used Yellow Dog as the main ingredient in the extract
version of two recipes we designed online, an ale and a porter. We
made up an extract version and an all-grain version, and we used the
Yellow Dog for the extract version because the Home Brewery listed
the ingredients, so we knew the make up.
 
After we each brewed our own batches, we then swapped via UPS a few
samples of our efforts, and compared them. The result? The Yellow Dog
is just fine, everyone's beer was good, but in the end you get so
much variation in technique that the "cake mix" you use is less
important than how you brew it.
 
I thought the Yellow Dog was fine extract, and if I had to mail order
I would consider it, but I now have two local homebrew stores, and
I'd rather support them. I can add my own wheat and chocolate, and I
often do!
 
 mike.keller
 

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Date: Tue, 14 Sep 1993 22:14:46 -0500
From: donald oconnor <oconnor at ccwf.cc.utexas.edu>
Subject: oring challenge results


For nearly a year now I have avoided posting the results of the 
oring challenge even when it seemed appropriate such as the time 
George Fix referred to "O'Connor's oring beer."  Quite honestly I 
didn't want to hear another damn word about orings.

The oring challenge was never what I said.  I said that the beer had 
been in a used keg with a used oring.  I further said the keg had 
once held either coke or Dr. Pepper or root beer.  I asked them to 
tell me which.  In reality, the beer had never been in a keg.  I 
spiked each 12 ounce bottle with 9 ml of Diet Coke.  That's an 
incredible 1.35 cans of diet coke per 5 gallon batch.  I simply 
poured from bottle to bottle to make it look as if it came from a 
keg, sediment free.  The beer was tasted by 5 certified judges and 
several others.  NOT A SINGLE PERSON TASTED COKE.  The reason I 
did this was to offer a concrete example that the threshold for 
coke was too high to believe an oring could soak up enough syrup 
to be the culprit.

However, the really remarkable results came from the group of 4 
certified judges in Chicago.  They not only did not taste coke, they 
IMAGINED TASTING "GRAPE or GINGER ALE" which they surmised 
came from the oring.  They surmised the keg had once held grape 
or ginger ale.

So what did the oring challenge prove?

Were these judges incompetent?  Far from it.  Quite impressively, 
the judge in N. Carolina actually picked up a sweetness that was not 
like malt sweetness.  Another judge in the Chicago area tasted 2 
bottles a month or two apart and noticed a big difference because 
the beer was very oxidized by the time he drank the second.  Two 
others, not judges, noticed the rather odd dark color of the spiked 
beer.

All I can say with absolute certainty is that 
1.  5 certifed judges and several others did not taste 1.35 cans of 
Diet Coke in 5 gallons of pale beer even when they were looking for 
it.
2.  4 certified judges did IMAGINE tasting grape or ginger ale from 
an old oring that never existed.
People can quibble around the edges, but these two facts are 
indisputable.

Before you run out to change the poppet valve, I would simply ask
HOW DO YOU GET MORE THAN 1.35 CANS OF DIET COKE INTO THE 
POPPET VALVE ORING?

Finally, I agree with Al Korzonis that some people have more flavor 
sensitivity than others.  I would only add that some people have 
more imagination than others.  Both are essential to the full 
enjoyment of beer.  The trick is to have some idea where one ends 
and the other begins.

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Date: Tue, 14 Sep 93 20:30:25 -0700
From: pascal at netcom.com (The Ghost In The Machine)
Subject: Yeast Washing


martin at gamma.intel.com notes :

"I have on occasion washed some yeast.  The question I have is how do you
 tell the difference from the trub and the yeast?  The yeast is usually an
 off-white and the trub white, do I just not worry???"


I believe the trub is heaviest, and therefore on the bottom, as what is
called, in chemistry, the "precipitate". As it contains a hodge-podge of
materials, it is rarely of a pure color, and tends to be darker in shade.

The yeast - the living yeast cells, not the dead cells, which are amongst
the rest of the "precipitated" materials on the bottom - are in suspension,
and therefore rest in the layer above the precipitate.

The fluid medium in which they both exist provides the third, top layer,
and it is clear, totally transparent, and usually only lightly tinted.

The trick to separating the three is in a two-fold approach.

	(1)	Add sufficient fluid to allow the three to separate.

	(2)	Adjust the geometry (shape) of the container to help
		expedite separating the layers - IE, use tall, thin
		containers to separate very small amounts.

It also helps to use something like a baster ( large vacumm-bulb gadget
used to suck up fluid under cooking meat and recirculate it over roasts,
usually used only once or twice a year, but has many other uses ... ;-)
with which to carefully remove specific layers, in order or not.


- -- richard


        Truth : the most deadly weapon known to civilization. Possession
        forbidden by employers, governments, and authorities, across the
        known universe. Violation of this regulation punishable by death.

   richard childers                                         pascal at netcom.com  

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Date: Tue, 14 Sep 93 12:42:00 -0600
From: chuck.wettergreen at aquila.com (Chuck Wettergreen)
Subject: slow sparges


In HBD 1224 Steve Zabarnick wrote: 
SZ) Subject: Slow sparge problems

SZ> two full mashes have been successful, but I've been frustrated
  > by the how slow my sparging has been. Here is my set-up: 5 gal

SZ> been sparging with 5 gals of 170 F water while keeping the water
  > level above the grain bed (I skip the mash-out). Both of my
  > sparges have taken 2 hours with the valve on the cooler full
  > open. I would like to get this down to about an hour.

Steve,
Have you been "floating" the grain on several inches of sparge water 
above the false bottom as Charlie P. recommends? I was having slow 
sparges (but nowhere near 2 hours), but found that the combination 
of first, filling the lauter tun with sparge water about two inches 
above the level of the false bottom, and second, maintaining the 
sparge water level above the grain level until the sparge is 
finished, dramatically decreased sparge time.

Chuck Wettergreen
 * RM 1.2 00946 * Nothing is so smiple that it can't get screwed up.

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Date: Wed, 15 Sep 93 08:47:02 MET DST
From: ROB THOMAS <THOMASR at EZRZ1.vmsmail.ethz.ch>
Subject: thin part boiling in decoction

Hello all,
I've just been catching up on the last two hbds.
Lee in hbd 1225 mentioned that he boils the THINNEST third during
his decoction mashes, and he attributes unclear beer to boiling
some grains as well.
He goes on to suggest that boiling the grains gelatinised their
starches, and hence led the haze
Well, yes and no!
The accepted "industrial" procedure for decoction involves
taking out the THICKEST third (ie mostly grain), heating it to
conversion temperatures and then to boiling, when, indeed, the
starch gelatinises, the inner structure of the grains is disrupted,
and generally the starch is made more accessible to enzymes.
This boiling mixture is then returned to the main mash.
Why is the thick part boiled? Firstly because of the changes it brings
about in the grains that were boiled, and secondly because
most of the (heat sensitive) enzymes have disolved in the liquor
(that is the thin bit), so that if the thin bit is taken out
and boiled, the enzymes are destroyed and no conversion takes place.
This then leads to low yields AND starch hazes!

Therefore, in conclusion, I'd say that Lee's unclear beer was caused
by NOT BOILING ENOUGH GRAINS and BOILING TOO MUCH LIQUID.

Using the above procedure I've got excellent yields of clear and
NOT astringent beer.

(There are other features of the decoction system that I won't go 
into, but in passing, by keeping the boiled part as thick as possible
no tannins are extracted during the boil either.)

Rob. Thomas

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End of HOMEBREW Digest #1226, 09/15/93