FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Rob Gardner, Digest Coordinator


Contents:
  Footnote to Silver Alloys ("Palmer.John")
  Zymurgy GABF members only postcard (gorman)
  Re: Silver Solder on wort boilers (larryba)
  RE:  someone asks about cardamom (Bruce Seiler)
  Mailing brew (mike.keller)
  RE: Mailing Homebrew (s.quarterman)
  cloning commercial beers (Damian Hogan)
  Re: malt v dextrose (Jim Grady)
  Purging Keg Headspaces (Chris Cook)
  Re: Bittering Hops (Paul Sovcik)
  Austin Stuff, Celis (Chris Pencis)
  Re: Keg Forced Carbonation Confusion ("Anton Verhulst")
  Re: Force Carbonation (Paul dArmond)
  Portable taps (Paul dArmond)
  RE: Partial-mash question(s) (Scott Benton)
  Mash Oxidation (korz)
  yeast behavior (Bert Davis)
  Hop aroma/vs bittering hops in boil (Mark Garetz)
  Minimizing Blow-off Loss (npyle)
  Vigorous fermantation (non tarred) (Philip J Difalco)
  next partial-mash question (Jonathan G Knight)
  Cherry Juice Beer (korz)
  lactic cultures (Ed Hitchcock)
  Cardamom (r.mcglew3)
  Red Tail Ale Clone Request (Thomas A Ludwig                     )
  Silver solder (KONSTANTINE)
  Brewpub & Microbrew info needed ( PAUL N HRISKO)
  HELP!! (mead) (Keith Hill)


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----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 23 Sep 1993 14:35:28 U
From: "Palmer.John" <palmer#d#john at ssdgwy.mdc.com>
Subject: Footnote to Silver Alloys

Hi Group,
As I was reading over (yesterdays) Digest, I realized I was mixing the terms
Brazing and Soldering. The information I posted dealt with Brazing, at 1400F 
a much higher temp process.  The brazing alloys I listed will be unaffected 
by boiling of the wort, with respect to heat.  As before, don't use the first
few that contain Cadmium, I included them so you would know which ones not to
use.  Someone mentioned Tin and Wort being bad, I have not heard the reason 
for this. Please email me if you have any questions, I am not a Welding or
Brazing engineer, just a metallurgical, but I do have good reference books.
John Palmer 
Space Station 

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Date: Thu, 23 Sep 93 17:33:48 EDT
From: gorman at aol.com
Subject: Zymurgy GABF members only postcard

I'll be making the trip to Denver to visit my sister and attend the GABF.

If somebody sent me their extra Zymurgy postcard for the member's only
tasting, I'd be able to get her in as well.

I'd be overwhelmingly grateful.

Bill Gorman
243 N. Barton St.
Arlington, VA 22201

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Date: Thu, 23 Sep 93 02:44:02 -0400
From: polstra!larryba at uunet.UU.NET
Subject: Re: Silver Solder on wort boilers

In HBD#1231 Wayde Nie writes:

>	What is the collective net wisdom on using silver solder to
>install the fittings into to base of a converted keg style boiler. I
>would think that soldering would be less of an undertaking than
>paying someone to weld SS.

I did just that with my rig.  I was able to assemble my mash/lauter
tun, kettle and hot liqour tanks using brass fittings and silver 
bearing solder.  I was able to do it using a regular blow torch.

A couple of things to know: 

1. Make sure whatever solder you use is FOOD GRADE!
2. Silver braze (e.g. 15% or so silver) is very strong and harder to use
   Silver bearing solder (3-5% silver) is easier to use but much weaker
3. Get the right kind of flux - ask a welding shop for help.  As I found
   out there are different temperatures and compatibilities to deal with.
4. In short, brass and SS are incompatible with Silver Solder and you will
   probably be frustrated in getting a solid, watertight, durable connection.
   The problem is that the copper in the brass dissolves into the silver
   solder and makes it very brittle.  As your joint cools it will crack.
   You are getting shafted not only by the presence of copper, but the
   differential expansion between brass and SS.

If you can get SS fittings for at least the bulkhead (where you would be
silver soldering to the keg) your job should be much easier.  One
possibility, that I have not explored yet, would be to get some threaded
SS pipe (say 1/2" npt), bore a hole in your keg and just solder the nipple
in place.  Then you could attach your (cheap) brass fittings on either
side.  If you can get some sort of SS fittign with a flange, all the better.

Just in case you are wondering: yes all my joints leak a tad.  Now that I
have several brews behind me the cracks have filled with carmalized sugar
(at least on the kettle)... :-(  
- -- 
Larry Barello			uunet!polstra!larryba

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Date: Thu, 23 Sep 93 18:46:11 PDT
From: Bruce Seiler <goshawk!seiler at compass-da.com>
Subject: RE:  someone asks about cardamom

Cardamom is also used by Scandinavians in bread.

Bruce Seiler
seiler at compass-da.com

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Date: Fri, 24 Sep 93 03:45:00 BST
From: mike.keller at genie.geis.com
Subject: Mailing brew

Scott Kaczorowski comments in HBD 1232:
 
 ||Zymurgy had an article not too long ago (issue?) specifically ||
 ||about packaging beer for sending to contests.  I remember     ||
 ||that it specifically did NOT say whether or not it is legal   ||
 ||to send beer via UPS, US Mail, etc.  The article              ||
 
On GEnie we began having regular brew swaps about a year ago. When we
first decided to do this, someone called around to the USPS, UPS and
Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms (hey, ask _everyone_) about
the legality of shipping beer. Basically, ATF doesn't care as long as
it's not whiskey. USPS said it is AGAINST the LAW to ship alcoholic
bevs through the mail (first class or otherwise).
 
UPS folks will give you varying answers. I've had them reject a
package of framed photos because I used glass (they prefer plexi).
However, unless you tell them "liquid in glass" they won't know and
might not care; that amount of caring is what varies from counter to
counter. I usually write on the UPS slip "yeast samples" or "brewing
samples." Never questioned.
 
This week I shipped to a fellow brewer in Canada, so I had to deal
with a customs form as well. Since I had to be honest on the customs
form ("two (2) bottles homemade beer, value $1 each"), I pretty much
had to be honest on the UPS papers too, so I said "Homemade beer
samples for judging." (I know that many winemakers ship samples via
UPS) Flew right through, and he reported getting my beer today (four
days from WV to Ontario).
 
The bottom line is that UPS is not a gov't agency, not the law, and
the worst they can do is reject your package.
 
mike keller, food and wine roundtable, GEnie
 
 

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Date: Thu, 23 Sep 93 07:04:00 BST
From: s.quarterman at genie.geis.com
Subject: RE: Mailing Homebrew

Rich Ryan asks about mailing beer......
 
Our group of folks on GEnie regularly mail beer to each other for our
Swap/Tastings held on-line on Saturday nights.  It is true that the US
Postal Service frowns 8^( very heavily on shipping alcoholic beverages by
mail.  I think it is again BATF regulations.  You can ship by UPS though.
This is what we do.  We just label the boxes as Brewing Supplies and leave
it like that.  We have had no problems to date.
 
Steve Quarterman -- Portland, Oregon
 S.Quarterman at GEnie.geis.com
 
            'Artificial Intelligence Beats Real Stupidity'

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Date: Fri, 24 Sep 1993 10:54:02 -0600 (CST)
From: Damian Hogan <hogan at tais.telecom.com.au>
Subject: cloning commercial beers


 Hi,
 	I was just wondering whether there is an FAQ for cloning 
commercial beers. My favorite commercial brew is Victoria Bitter.
If anyone has a recipe for VB or other Aussie beers I would be 
very interested in hearing from them.
 
 Thanks,
 
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Damian P. Hogan
Telecom Australia
Adelaide,SA AUSTRALIA
email : hogan at tais.telecom.com.au
 -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=


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Date: Fri, 24 Sep 93 7:50:34 EDT
From: Jim Grady <grady at hpangrt.an.hp.com>
Subject: Re: malt v dextrose

> > primed beer will have better flavor stability as oxygen has been
> > scavenged from the bottle during the bottle fermentation.

> Has anyone tested this? Miller suggests leaving very little headspace,
> and not capping for a short while after filling, on the grounds that
> enough CO2 will evolve to flush out the oxygen; I don't know anyone

I have not tested this but I use Miller's suggestion mostly for
convenience.  I fill all my bottles and set a cap on each one as I fill
it.  When all the bottles are filled, then I go and fasten the cap on
each one.  As I said, this is mostly for convenience because I don't
need to worry about keeping the bottling wand sanitized or worry about
it leaking or worry about keeping the siphon primed while I am capping.
That said, as I get about 1/2 - 3/4 of the way through bottling, the
bottles that were filled first have started to "burp" as the air is
pushed out by the CO2 produced by the yeasties.

One item that is critical for the success of this method is that my 2 &
4 year old helpers are asleep.
- --
Jim Grady              |"Root beer burps don't have to be said 'Excuse me'."
grady at hp-mpg.an.hp.com |                Robert Grady, age 4.75

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Date:    Fri, 24 Sep 1993 13:41:28 GMT
From: COOK at CDHF2.GSFC.NASA.GOV (Chris Cook)
Subject: Purging Keg Headspaces

John McCaffrey <johnmc at brooktree.com> wrote on keg-forced carbonation
confusion (love that phrase) and discussed several major techniques.

One minor thought that may help.  When I carbonate my kegs, I found out
(the hard way, of course) that it is important to completely purge the air
from the headspace.

A while ago I kegged a batch and forgot to purge, just ran the pressure up.
Normally when I force-carbonate I can hear the CO2 going to work, and every
time I shake the key, more CO2 pours into the key.  This time, nothing.
Days later it hadn't carbonated at all, despite having way too much
pressure for dispensing.  Thinking on this, sudden memory struck and I
started purging.  I emptied the headspace from the gas disconnect, charged
it and emptied it, and charged it again up to carbonation pressure.  This
time the beer took some CO2, although still not that much.  After a day of
middling carbonation and overpressurization, I tried two more empty/refill
cycles and suddenly everything was working OK.

This raises a question: what procedures are people using for purging keg
headspaces?  My usual practice when I don't have amnesia is to hook up the
gas supply with the keg lid ajar, open the gas valve halfway and let the
CO2 run into the tank second or two, then pull the lid shut.

When people say "purge the headspace," what procedures are you following?

Chris Cook
cook at cdhf2.gsfc.nasa.gov

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Date:         Fri, 24 Sep 93 09:55:36 CDT
From: Paul Sovcik <U18183%UICVM at UIC.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Bittering Hops

In regards to the question of if the actual variety of hop really matters for b
ittering purposes:
      I am also interested in the general net opinion on this issue. I have alw
ays wondered about this ever since I read the "Hops" special issue of Zymurgy w
hich describes how one guy set out to brew every style of beer known. He used C
hinook hops as the base bittering hop for every style. The rationale was that b
itterness is bitterness and Chinook hops have the most %AA per dollar.
      So how about it? Am I wasting big money using lots of Czech Saaz for bitt
ering pilsners?
      -Paul

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Date: Fri, 24 Sep 93 10:31:20 CDT
From: chips at coleslaw.me.utexas.edu.mer.utexas.edu (Chris Pencis)
Subject: Austin Stuff, Celis

Hey out there in HBD land, I just went to the Celis brewery for the
first time a few days ago and I had a great tour.  The tour info was
primarily historical (the story of Pierre Celis and his coming to Texas
and getting the brew kettles) and an intro to the brew process for those
who are not initiated.  The best part of the tour, of course, was the
beer samples - *fresh* from the tap, brewed within 6 weeks, words don't
do the taste justice.  Anyway - the sum total of all of this is - if you
are in the Austin/Central Texas area and haven't gone, you should go. 
If you are coming into the Austin area from out of town - make time for
the trip, the brewery is no more than a 30 minute drive from anywhere in
Austin (its actually about 5-10 minutes from I35 and 290).  While on
Austin, anyone know details on the upcoming Austin Brew Ha-Ha
Competition?
	While I'm here - I want to make a spiced beer for holidays and
have decided that the spiced liquour (sp!) is the way to go for me. 
Anyone know where I can get some Gloegg or other kind of spice
concentrate for use in such a beer?  If not I'll resort to making my own
and wing it.
	Hope you people up north are enjoying your fall - it'll be 98
again here today and no chance of any turning leaves...
						Chris

======================================================================
|Chris Pencis 				chips at coleslaw.me.utexas.edu |
|University of Texas at Austin		Robotics Research Group	     |
======================================================================

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Date: Fri, 24 Sep 93 11:30:20 EDT
From: "Anton Verhulst" <verhulst at zk3.dec.com>
Subject: Re: Keg Forced Carbonation Confusion


I keep my kegs at room temp and run the beer line into a small fridge that
has a cold plate in it.  I cool my beer on demand.  Being at room temp,
I have to run my kegs at 30 psi for it to have 2.5 volumes (NOT atmospheres -
atmospheres is a unit of pressure) of CO2.  All I do is pressurize the keg
and shake it until I don't hear any more CO2 being absorbed by the brew and
then I know the beer is saturated and ready to go.  This takes 10 to 15
minutes.


The following table has been posted to HBD in the past and is very useful.

- -------------------------------------------------------------------


formula:

Pressure = F(Temperature, Volume)
P = -16.6999 - 0.0101059 T + 0.00116512 T^2 + 0.173354 T V
    + 4.24267 V - 0.0684226 V^2

Here's a table that that function generates:

                      Volumes of CO2 desired
Temp   2.0  2.1  2.2  2.3  2.4  2.5  2.6  2.7  2.8  2.9  3.0

 32F   3.5  4.4  5.4  6.3  7.3  8.2  9.2 10.1 11.0 12.0 12.9
 34F   4.3  5.3  6.3  7.3  8.2  9.2 10.2 11.2 12.1 13.1 14.1
 36F   5.1  6.2  7.2  8.2  9.2 10.2 11.2 12.3 13.3 14.3 15.3
 38F   6.0  7.0  8.1  9.1 10.2 11.2 12.3 13.3 14.4 15.4 16.5
 40F   6.8  7.9  9.0 10.1 11.2 12.3 13.4 14.4 15.5 16.6 17.7
 42F   7.7  8.8 10.0 11.1 12.2 13.3 14.4 15.5 16.7 17.8 18.9
 44F   8.6  9.7 10.9 12.1 13.2 14.4 15.5 16.7 17.8 19.0 20.1
 46F   9.5 10.7 11.8 13.0 14.2 15.4 16.6 17.8 19.0 20.2 21.3
 48F  10.4 11.6 12.8 14.0 15.3 16.5 17.7 18.9 20.1 21.4 22.6
 50F  11.3 12.5 13.8 15.0 16.3 17.6 18.8 20.1 21.3 22.6 23.8
 52F  12.2 13.5 14.8 16.1 17.3 18.6 19.9 21.2 22.5 23.8 25.1
 54F  13.1 14.4 15.7 17.1 18.4 19.7 21.1 22.4 23.7 25.0 26.3
 56F  14.0 15.4 16.7 18.1 19.5 20.8 22.2 23.6 24.9 26.3 27.6
 58F  15.0 16.4 17.8 19.2 20.6 21.9 23.3 24.7 26.1 27.5 28.9
 60F  15.9 17.3 18.8 20.2 21.6 23.1 24.5 25.9 27.4 28.8 30.2
 62F  16.9 18.3 19.8 21.3 22.7 24.2 25.7 27.1 28.6 30.0 31.5
 64F  17.8 19.3 20.8 22.3 23.8 25.3 26.8 28.3 29.8 31.3 32.8
 66F  18.8 20.3 21.9 23.4 25.0 26.5 28.0 29.6 31.1 32.6 34.1
 68F  19.8 21.4 22.9 24.5 26.1 27.6 29.2 30.8 32.4 33.9 35.5
 70F  20.8 22.4 24.0 25.6 27.2 28.8 30.4 32.0 33.6 35.2 36.8
 72F  21.8 23.4 25.1 26.7 28.4 30.0 31.6 33.3 34.9 36.5 38.2
 74F  22.8 24.5 26.2 27.8 29.5 31.2 32.9 34.5 36.2 37.9 39.5
 76F  23.8 25.5 27.2 29.0 30.7 32.4 34.1 35.8 37.5 39.2 40.9
 78F  24.9 26.6 28.4 30.1 31.8 33.6 35.3 37.1 38.8 40.5 42.3
 80F  25.9 27.7 29.5 31.2 33.0 34.8 36.6 38.3 40.1 41.9 43.7



        Volumes of CO2:
        British style beers = 2.0 - 2.4  (I think that 1.0 is more like it)
        Most other beers = 2.4 - 2.85
        High-carbonation beers = 2.85 - 2.95

- --Tony Verhulst

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Date: Fri, 24 Sep 1993 07:51:16 -0700 (PDT)
From: Paul dArmond <paulf at henson.cc.wwu.edu>
Subject: Re: Force Carbonation

John McCaffery has asked for some information about force carbonation, so
here goes (I'm sure this will be just one post among many):

Carbonation is the process of dissolving CO2 in water to form carbonic
acid.

Gasses are more soluble at lower temperature, though they get forced out
of solution just before freezing.  This is what makes the bubbles in ice
cubes.  CO2 is pretty soluble, but not instantly so.  Nor does it difuse
rapidly through the beer.  The disolving takes place only at the
gas/liquid interface, so the amount of surface area is important.

There are several implications to these facts.

1) Pressure does not equal carbonation.  It is possible for a keg to be
under high pressure and not have the beer well carbonated.

2) As the pressure/temp/vol CO2 tables imply, as temperature rises (or
falls) the pressure necessary for a certain degree of carbonation rises
(or falls).

3) An upright motionless keg presents the least surface area and thus
provides the worst conditions for carbonation.

Keeping these things in mind, here's how I handle my carbonation--

Sanitize the keg.  Purge it of air by pressurizing to 15 psi and venting
it off several times.  Open the safety release on the lid and then open
the lid just enough to slip in the racking hose.  Bleed CO2 into the
*open* keg at very low regulator setting (2-3 psi).  This is
anti-oxidation voodoo.  Rack the beer into the keg.

Seal the lid, pressurize to 35 psi.  Check for leaks and a good seal. 
Shake the keg repeatedly until no more gas will flow at 35 psi.  Put the
keg in the fridge overnight.  When the keg is chilled, hook it back up to
the CO2 at 35 psi and lay the keg on its side with the gas inlet
uppermost.  I don't have a check (one way) valve on my regulator, but I do
have a long (6') clear hose.  I will occasionally get a few drops of beer
moving into the gas line, but it has never been a problem, just some
cleaning after I'm done.  With the keg horizontal (to expose more surface
area) rock and slosh the keg until the regulator stops hissing.  Set the
keg upright.  Take a break.  Repeat until no gas is drawn into the key
when shaking.

At this point the keg is over pressurized and undercarbonated.  The
pressure is 35 psi.  If the pressure is vented to dispensing range, the
beer will have large coarse bubbles, foam a lot and go flat quickly.  Now
I put the beer back into the fridge.  As more gas dissolves, the pressure
will drop.  Over the next day or so, it will drop to 15-20 psi.  At this
point, I keep the keg at dispensing/equilibrium pressure (for me this is
12-15 psi at 47F, your taste may vary).  Depending on which tap and lines
I use, I may have to lower or raise the dispensing pressure to get the
right head. 

Something odd happens as the storage time increases.  The bubbles get
smaller, the beading (trails of bubbles) improves, and the carbonation
lasts longer in the glass.  I suspect this is due to the CO2 bonding
(slowly) to things other than water, but you can't prove it by me.  This
improvement in the quality of carbonation over time is puzzling, but pleasant.

I hope this helps out John and others.  I arrived at the process
empirically, 'cause the instructions I had (like his) didn't seem to work
properly.  Shake it up!

agitatedly,

Paul.


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Date: Fri, 24 Sep 1993 08:33:28 -0700 (PDT)
From: Paul dArmond <paulf at henson.cc.wwu.edu>
Subject: Portable taps

For some time, I've been dissatified with my "cobra head" portable tap. 
It seems like the hose is too short, too fat.  The tap causes a lot of
turbulence.  I have arrived at the conclusion that these things are just a
kluge.  If I have time, I now remove a tap and line from my dispensing
fridge, but this is both a hassle and a compromise.

Does anyone know of a source for a better hand-tap for field use?  I don't
want to go to the expense of a cold plate or jockey box setup.  I just want a
tap that has a smaller i.d. hose and a tap that was designed for beer,
rather than coffee.  Any help out there?

Paul.


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Date: Fri, 24 Sep 1993 13:05:01 -0400 (EDT)
From: Scott Benton <sbenton at telerama.pgh.pa.us>
Subject: RE: Partial-mash question(s)

In HBD1232 Jonathan G Knight <KNIGHTJ at AC.GRIN.EDU> wrote:

>So here is my first question.  I have heard or thought of a couple different 
>ways of handling the four pounds or so of grain I'll be dealing with.  (1) 
>Put all the grains in a grain bag, go through the various temperature rests, 
>and instead of the "mashout" remove the bag and either just squeeze the 
>liquid out of the bag by mashing (sic) it down in a colander placed across 
>the top of the kettle or running 170F. water through the bag/colander or 
>both.  (2) Don't use a bag; at the end of the mash, dump the liquor and 
>grains into a kettle, then pour back through the colander to catch the grains 
>and then sparge; (3) get another plastic bucket and drill holes to make the 

I do kind of a hybrid of 1 and 2.  I essentially do the mash in a SS pot that
I put in a picnic cooler for temperature control.  When it comes time to
sparge, I line a plastic colander with my grain bag and pour the mash into
it.  After recycling the first runnings through the grain bed thus created, I
run my 168F water through the grain.  My colander has holes that are too large
for this purpose, so my water goes through too fast, but I seem to get pretty
good extraction this way.  I use 2-2.5 gal of water and 2.5 to 3# of grain for
this process.

I intend to fabricate one of those double bucket systems some year when I get
a few minutes of free time.


Scott D. Benton        sbenton at telerama.pgh.pa.us



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Date: Fri, 24 Sep 93 13:27 CDT
From: korz at iepubj.att.com
Subject: Mash Oxidation

Norm writes:
>Oxidation during the mash is a potential problem area, contrary to old wisdom.

I agree.  Coincidentally, I was re-reading Noonan last night, in preparation
for re-taking the BJCP exam, and in the section on "Why Decoction?" he says
that the boiling of the decoctions helps to de-oxygenate the wort which leads
to the grain bed settling in "layers" at lautering time Noonan claims this
makes for a better filter bed.  I have no experience with this, but thought
it might be of general interest.

For the record, when kettle mashing, I scoop the mash into the lauter tun
with a small pot and try to do this as gently as possible to avoid oxidation.
In general, oxidation is a bad thing -- offhand the only positive oxidation
I can think of at this minute is the protective oxidation on aluminum and
stainless steel.

Al.

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Date: Fri, 24 Sep 93 12:14:38 PDT
From: bert at crseo.ucsb.edu (Bert Davis)
Subject: yeast behavior


HBDites:

As I am drinking some of the last of the summer's extract-brewed weissen 
batches I thought I would report some variation in the results, almost 
certainly due to the yeast.  

I brewed four 5 gallon batches, dark then light, and light then dark.  I 
pitched the 'dregs' from the fermenter, shaken up, from the first dark 
batch into the next light batch.  I started over for the next two batches,
also pitching from the first (light) into the second (dark).  The boiling 
times, 60 min., were the same for all batches.   The fermentation 
temperatures were also approximately the same (~70 F), as were the 
temperatures when I pitched (~75 F).  Both light brews and both dark brews 
had the same rather simple recipes:

6.6 lbs. NorthWestern Weissen extract
1.5 oz. Saaz (3/4 in boil, the rest at the end) 
22 oz. Yeast Lab W51 Bavarian Weizen, primed for the first of each pair 
       of brews

======================================================================
>From yeast FAQ:
Yeast Lab W51 Bavarian Weizen
This strain produces a classic German style wheat beer, with moderately
high, spicy phenolic overtones reminiscent of cloves.  Medium attenuation,
moderately flocculent.
======================================================================

The two dark batches had, at the usual reboil stage: 

1/2 lb. chocolate malt 
1/4 lb. crystal malt 

The finished brews made with the fresh yeast were almost overwhelming in 
mostly clovelike phenolics while the brews made with the "repitched" yeast 
had much more balanced phenolics (some vanilla) and esters (banana), like 
commercial weissens, only more intense (and delicious in my opinion). The 
'overly' clovelike brews have mellowed with age, but their weissen 
character is still not close to the pleasant balance between phenols and 
esters found in the other brews and in store-bought European wheat beers.

Regarding this, I can find no illuminating material in Warner's great
monograph on german wheat beer, except that the overall level of phenolic
substances is higher when the entire fermentation is carried out at higher 
temperatures.  My working hypotheses are that some change in the yeast or
some substance(s) in the sediment contribute to the (better) character
of the second batches.  Any comments?  Any advice on how I can acheive 
second-batch results from the getgo?

Bert Davis

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Date: Fri, 24 Sep 93 13:27:35 PDT
From: Mark Garetz <mgaretz at hoptech.com>
Subject: Hop aroma/vs bittering hops in boil

Brian R Seay writes: 

>Subject: Bittering Hops


                       Subject:                               Time:8:28 AM
>  OFFICE MEMO          Bittering Hops                         Date:9/23/93
>In the spirit of "There are no stupid questions":

>All of the hop oils in the lupulin glands of boiling hops are boiled away
>during a 60 minute boil.  The hop oils are the source of hop flavor and
>aroma, so there should be no hop flavor or aroma contributed by the
>boiling hops.  Therefore, one ounce of Northern Brewer  at  10% alpha could
>be substituted for two ounces of Willamette  at  5% alpha.  The same
>bitterness would be achieved and there would be no perceptable
>difference in taste.  Right?  Probably not.  Where is the flaw in my
>thinking?

Firstly, not *all* of the oils are boiled away (*most* are though and some
are changed into oxidation products, also with aroma).  But enough survive
into the beer to have subtle impacts on the beer's flavor.  Also, the "oil"
is not a single compound but contains upwards of 300 compounds that occur
in differing proportions depending on the variety.  Also, there is the 
question of the "bitter flavor" that comes from the alpha acids and their
oxidation products.  The proportions of the alpha acids (which is variety
dependent) has an effect on the quality of the bitter flavor.  The best
documented example of this is the cohumulone level.  It is suspected that
high cohumulone levels lead to a harsher bitterness.  It so happens that
usually "aroma" hops have a low proportion of cohumulone, and the high alpha
hops tend to have higher proportions.

Back to the oils:  So here's what happens.  When you put in a low alpha hop
for bittering, you are usually adding a lot more aroma compounds to the beer
because you are adding a lot more ounces of hops to get the alpha acid content
right.  Converesly, when you use a "high alpha" hop, you add less oils.  Now
I say "usually" because some of the high alpha varieties also have high oils,
but the noble aroma hops (that the studies have been done with that I am 
basing my comments on) also have fairly high oil contents but low alphas.

A lot also depends on the beer style.  The aroma compounds left over from
the bittering hops is a lot more likely to be noticed in a well-made lager
than it would be in a pale ale that would typically have more finishing
hops or a stout/heavy beer where lots of flavors will mask the hop
subtleties.  All of the commercial studies on this subject have been done
with lagers.  They have been trying to answer the age-old question "Does
using noble and/or aroma hops for bittering make a difference in the beer's
taste?"  The answer seems to be "Yes."  But again, they are concerened with
lagers.  So, it's not a stupid question.  The pros have been at it for years.

Mark

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Date: Fri, 24 Sep 93 12:02:36 MDT
From: npyle at n33.stortek.com
Subject: Minimizing Blow-off Loss

I'm the last guy who should be commenting on a blow-off method, but call me a
blowhard.  Andy sez:

>>Does anyone experienced with this technique have any tricks for
>>minimizing the amount of fluid loss?
>
>>Chris
>
>        Sure, switch to a 1" ID plastic hose and move the bucket of water
>        to a height about 2 feet above the top of the carboy.  Most of the
>        beer kicked out during the blow-off period can't make it out and
>        falls back into the carboy.  I use this system for any beer with an
>        OG of at least 1.050.  Lower strength beers tend not to kick out
>        as much fluid.

Aren't you risking a siphon of potentially contaminated water (or sanitizer)
back into your fermenter?

      blowoff hose
         ________
 B____  /________\
       //        \\
       ||        ||
       ||        ||
      _||_       ||  
     / || \    |~||~|---C
    |  ||  |   |    |
A---|~~||~~|   |    |
    |      |   |____|
    |      |  blowoff bucket
    |      |
    |______|
   fermenter

A is the level of the wort in the fermenter.  C is the level of the liquid in
your blowoff bucket.  B is the point at which the wort is forced up to during
heavy fermentation.  When the fermentation slows, since the mass of the liquid
in the left side of the tube is greater than the mass of the liquid in the
right side of the tube, the direction of motion of the liquid is now right to
left (pulling liquid from the blowoff bucket).  No?

RE: HOPS FAQ, progress is slow, mostly because of the underwhelming response to
my request for information.  I am currently looking for commercial examples and
flavor/aroma profiles for the following hops:

Hallertau Hersbrucker
Hallertau Mittelfruh
Liberty
Mt. Hood
Styrian Goldings
Willamette
Bullion
Centennial
Chinook
Cluster
Galena
Nugget
Perle
Pride of Ringwood

Yes, I realize this is practically a list of every hop ever known to (modern)
man.  The point is that for this FAQ to work I need input from you brewers.  I
haven't tried a lot of these hops and even some of the ones I did try, I didn't
take notes on hop flavor profile, etc.  As far as the flavor profiles, your own
adjectives are what I'm after (i.e. citric, flowery, funky, strong, non-
descript, etc.)  Also, commercial examples of a particular hop would be quite
welcome, but I'd prefer not to get things like "I've heard they use Mt. Hood in
XYZ beer".  If its a rumour it probably doesn't belong in the FAQ.  Part of the
reason for me doing this FAQ is selfish; I want the information.  If it was
solely for that purpose, though, I wouldn't be putting in the kind of time I'm
spending.  The extra effort is for the digest participants; I'm just asking for
a little input.  Is that too much to ask?

As always, we thank you for your support,
norm

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Date: Fri, 24 Sep 93 16:00:07 -0400
From: Philip J Difalco <sxupjd at anubis.fnma.COM>
Subject: Vigorous fermantation (non tarred)

Sorry about the tar-corrupted file - I only have a slight idea how that may
have happened, but it's too mundane to elaborate.

Basically, I brewed a Scottish Ale (recipe taken from pg. 9-6 of Cats Meow),
brewed using standard extract procedures.  I used Wyeast #1056 (American Ale
yeast), made a starter, and added it to the wort.

I racked to a secondary (carboy) after 9 days.  Today (day 12) the brew is
still actively fermenting (one bubble from airlock about every minute, and tiny
bubbles regularly rise to the beer's surface - as noticed through the carboy).
My basement temp. ranges between 67^F to 70^F (where the beer's fermenting).
Additional Note:  My tarnished Wort Chiller became de-tarnished after the wort
chilling phase for this brew.

QUESTIONS/CONCERNS:
Is this long of a fermentation period abnormal (for #1056)?
How long a fermentation period can I observe before I become worried?

Any/all responses/observations welcome.

Looking through the 1992 HOMEBREW Digest Index (1992.index) I noticed some
articles referencing "Problems with long ferments for WYeast 1056" - however,
I don't have direct ftp access to sierra.stanford.edu, and therefore am unable
to view those HB Digests (Digest #'s: 835, 837, 969->972, 1011, 1012).

(if you want the awk script I used to do the HB Digest Index search, let me
know and I'll email it - usage: searchFor searchString indexFileNames).

- ---
email: sxupjd at fnma.com (NeXT Mail Okay)
Philip DiFalco, Senior SomethingOrOther, Advanced Technology
FannieMae, 3900 Wisconsin Ave. NW, Washington, DC 22016     (202)752-2812

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Date: Fri, 24 Sep 1993 17:27:33 -0500 (cdt)
From: Jonathan G Knight <KNIGHTJ at AC.GRIN.EDU>
Subject: next partial-mash question


I've had this partial-mash question partially answered from someone already 
in private e-mail, but since it's next on my list I'll go ahead and post it 
to the think tank anyway.

When partial-mashing, to what extent might it be beneficial to (1) measure & 
adjust the ph of the water (2) use the iodine test for conversion?

It sounds to me like most partial-grain people pretty much fly by the seat of 
the pants on these matters.

Opinions?

Jonathan Knight
Grinnell, Iowa

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Date: Fri, 24 Sep 93 17:49 CDT
From: korz at iepubj.att.com
Subject: Cherry Juice Beer

Beth writes:
>I have a nice can of Kangabroo Lager and about 4 cups of homemade 
>cherry juice(also some homegrown cascade hops).  I was going to 
>put the cherry juice in at the beginning of the boil along
>with everything else but after reding the postings about
>fruit additves to beer I'm totally confused.  Now I'm
>thinking of adding the juice right at the end just before
>bottling.  I would appreciate any suggestions.

It's not a good idea to add the juice early in the boil because boiling
will boil-off many aromatics from the juice and about all you'll get is
alcohol out of the juice's sugars.  The flavor is in the aromatics!

Also, it's not a good idea to add the juice at bottling because it has
sugars in it and you'll get overcarbonated beer.

In addition to the two suggested cherry juice additions there are at least
two more:

1. add the juice in the last 1 minute of the boil, and

2. pasteurize the juice by heating it to 160F  for 10 minutes, cool it,
and add it after the primary fermenation is over.

Suggestion 1) is more likely to set the pectins (I think your homemade
juice has pectins in it) which will make your beer cloudy.

Suggestion 2) is the best because adding the cherry juice (or any fruit)
at pitching time is that the fermentation of the malt sugars and fruit
sugars will produce a lot of CO2 which will scrub the cherry aromatics
out of the beer.

I think that 4 cups may be an un-noticable amount of cherry flavor for
a 5 gallon batch.  I'm about to make a cherry beer and am thinking about
using between 6 and 8 pounds of cherries under 3.5 gallons of beer.  I've
used 13 pounds in a batch of pKriek and the cherry flavor was quite intense.

I've looked through many grocery stores looking for 100% cherry juice,
but no luck -- they are always (in order on the label): water, corn syrup,
white grape juice, cherry juice, preservatives.  That's not what I want
in my beer.  If you can't find more real cherry juice, it would be a shame
to waste the 4 cups you have.  Here's what I suggest:

 * Brew up the batch of beer.
 * When it's done, siphon one gallon onto the four cups of PASTEURIZED juice
   in a sanitized, two-gallon container.
 * Bottle the other four gallons.
 * Wait till the cherry sub-batch is done, bottle that.

Al.

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Date: Thu, 23 Sep 1993 17:04:33 -0300
From: Ed Hitchcock <ECH at ac.dal.ca>
Subject: lactic cultures

Has anyone successfully produced an acidic belgian ale, such as 
Goudenband or Rodenbach?  Perhaps a more appropriate question might be 
has anyone successfully reproduced a tart belgian style ale?  Where 
might one get appropriate lactic bacteria cultures?  I don't think 
pediococcus is what I want, I'm not looking for ropiness.  Has anyone 
used a yogurt culture for producing lactic beer?  If so, can these 
bacteria stand alcohol and low pH?

____________   
Ed Hitchcock	ech at ac.dal.ca	| "I'm not from outer space.  I'm from
Anatomy & Neurobiology		|  Iowa.  I just work in outer space."
Dalhousie University, Halifax	|   		- James T. Kirk
	[Eschew racism.  Drink beer from all nations]

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Date: Sat, 25 Sep 93 03:30:00 BST
From: r.mcglew3 at genie.geis.com
Subject: Cardamom

I don't know about cardamom in beer, but I do know about it in bread.  It
 gives bread a nice sweet flavor, it is my secret ingredient in almost
 any sweet bread that I bake.  Don't know what it will add to beer.
 Almost any spice can be bought less expensively at a store that specializes
 in spices and herbs.  Look in the Yellow pages locally, or in the back of
 a gourmet magazine for mail order.  I've found much greater variety (like
 three different kinds of cinnamom) and better merchandise this way!

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Date:    Fri, 24 Sep 93 22:41 PDT
From: Thomas A Ludwig <IZZYQK4 at MVS.OAC.UCLA.EDU>
Subject: Red Tail Ale Clone Request

Does anyone out there have a recipie for Red Tail Ale or something quite
similar?  Respond via HBD or private e-mail and I'll post a composite
response.


Cheers.

Thom Ludwig at UCLA Neuroscience (IZZYQK4 at mvs.oac.ucla.edu)

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Date: Sun, 26 Sep 1993 15:18:01 -0400 (EDT)
From: KONSTANTINE at delphi.com
Subject: Silver solder

   I've been following the discussion on silver soldering and decided to
to pull out The Complete Metalsmith by Tim McCreight and look up silver
solder alloys.  Here's what I found.

               Ag     Cu     Zn     Cd     Melt. Pt.

"IT"           80     16      4      0     1490

HARD           76     21      3      0     1425

MEDIUM         70     20     10      0     1390

EASY           60     25     15      0     1325

EASY-FLO       50     15     15     20     1270

   If there are any questions, Ag=silver, Cu=copper, Zn=Zinc, and
Cd=Cadmium.  The Melting Point is degrees fahrenheit.

   These are all high temperature alloys and from personal experience they
will solder stainless.  Keep close tolerances and the joint will be
stronger than the items you are bonding.  As the chart indicates, stay
away from Easy-Flo for food grade applications because Cadmium is very
toxic.

           Later,
               Konstantine.

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Date: Sun, 26 Sep 1993 21:54:25 EDT
From: WJCS75A at prodigy.com ( PAUL N HRISKO)
Subject: Brewpub & Microbrew info needed


All,

I'm finally taking a well deserved vacation traveling around the southwest.
Therefore, I'm asking for any information you may have on (good) brewpubs
and microbreweries located in the following states:

New Mexico
Arizona
Nevada
Utah
Colorado
Wyoming

Please e-mail me the info if you can.
Thanks in advance!

Paul N. Hrisko
Prodigy Services Company
>When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro - HST<


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Date: Sun, 26 Sep 93 21:20:26 PDT
From: Keith Hill <khill at eecs.wsu.edu>
Subject: HELP!! (mead)



I was wondering if anyone wout there has mad mead using fruit?  If so 
I would like some hints for future batches or help on the following
problem, how to avoid.  I need some opions if the mead I made would still
be good, it had mold on the top of it when I was transfering it to a
secondary. (It sat a little long in the primary)  I was curious for 
opinions if it will be good?

Thanks for any help.

K Hill
khill at ren.eecs.wsu.edu


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End of HOMEBREW Digest #1234, 09/27/93