FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Rob Gardner, Digest Coordinator


Contents:
  Mailing/shipping home brew (brewerbob)
  Old brew/Babylon (Jack Thompson)
  Corning Outlets near DC? (gorman)
  re: cold plates (The Ice-9-man Cometh)
  Cold Plates (Jack Schmidling)
  Re: Pint Glasses (William Pemberton)
  grain mill evaluations (Boston Wort Processors' Krush-off 3/3) (Patrick Sobalvarro)
  dryhopping rate (Spencer.W.Thomas)
  cleaning/brewing tips (Chris Pencis)
  Re: Christmas Ale Recipe (Jim Grady)
  Barley Wine fermentation schedule? (npyle)
  North Jersey Suppliers (Jim Vella 470 XXXX )
  Krush-off / help (Omega)
  Novice all-grainer's comments (Steve Zabarnick)
  Dave Barry observations (fwd) (Michael Ligas)
  Dave Barry observations (NAME)
  Chillers, Yeast, and Stout (Robert Pulliam)
  Two Hop Topics (Mark Garetz)


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----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sun, 03 Oct 93 16:39:59 EDT
From: brewerbob at aol.com
Subject: Mailing/shipping home brew

I have checked it all out and I have been the "victim" of the US Postal
Service as well. Here is the real skinny on at least two methods of shipping
alcoholic beverages:

The U.S. Postal Service has regulations forbiding the shipment of any
alcoholic beverage via USPS. (As well as about 100 other items such as
explosives, drugs, toxic materials, etc, etc...) That's all there is to that!
I had a package that I sent (or tried to send) to the state of Washington
that was dropped/hit/crushed/mishandled/etc in spite of the labels on all six
sides stating it was fragile. I received a form stating that I had been a bad
boy and my package was sent straight to Hell (I think that may be the other
Washington!) and I could not even get my postage back!

Shipping by UPS is legal! However, to avoid any hassle with some low paid and
low trained clerk that could easily occur if you identify it as beer, the
best thing to do is identify the contents as "Non-
parishable food products" or "Hobby parts including glass and metal" or
something along those lines. If you must, call it "Live yeast cultures" and
the driver may be more careful with the handling of the box.

I do strongly recommend, however, that you do NOT send it in a beer carton! I
sent a case of twenty sixteen ouncers to Texas in a Tucher box (after all,
they were originally Tucher bottles) along with a second box which was a
plain brown box containing about ten assorted bottles of home brews. The two
were sent at the very same time. The second one arrived just fine, the first
one never arrived. I just hope the driver appriciated my home brew. It was a
Shiner style Bock beer.

I did put in a claim and UPS paid me $100 plus the $11.xx shipping cost. I
split the money with the intended recipient and told him to buy a case or two
of good beer with it!

Good luck with your shipments.


BrewerBob at aol.com

P.S.  By the way, when I ship beer to the AHA competition, I always include a
couple of extra labeled bottles for the crew and I pack the beer bottles in
fresh popcorn so they have something to eat with all that beer. I enclose a
note telling them that the popcorn was popped as the box was being prepared
for shipment so it is fresh. The whole thing starts in a plastic bag inside
the box which is sealed before the box is closed.

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Date: Sun, 3 Oct 1993 22:08:24 -0700 (PDT)
From: Jack Thompson <jct at reed.edu>
Subject: Old brew/Babylon

just reading through Carl S. Pederson's _Microbiology of Food Fermentations_,
the AVI Publishing Co., Inc, Connecticut, 1971, when I came across this
item on p. 211:

"The first evidence of beer manufacture has been traced to to ancient
Babylonia, possibly dating back as far as 5000 to 7000 B.C....Some 18
varities of beer, called bousa, were said to have been prepared in
Babylonia as long ago as 2200 B.C.

 ...At some time barley was moistened and when germination began, it was
crushed with a pestle, roughly ground, and made into loaves with sour
dough or leaven.  They were baked sufficiently to form a crust without
cooking the interior.  When beer was required, the loaves were broken,
mixed with water, and allowed to ferment.  the liquid was pressed,
separated from the dough, and when fermentation was completed, the
resulting acid-alcoholic beverage was called boozah or bousa.

Booze?  Babylonian?

Beer=high tech?

Just another data point.
Jack C. Thompson




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Date: Mon, 04 Oct 93 09:39:22 EDT
From: gorman at aol.com
Subject: Corning Outlets near DC?

Recent messages have described the variety of glassware available at Corning
Outlets.

Does anyone know of one of these near the Washington, DC area?

Bill Gorman

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Date:    Mon, 4 Oct 1993 9:01:47 -0500 (CDT)
From: SMITH at EPVAX.MSFC.NASA.GOV (The Ice-9-man Cometh)
Subject: re: cold plates

Regarding chilling beer with a cold plate in a freezer:  This would
probably work for one or two glasses of non-warm beer.  But the thermal
mass of the cold plate is a lot lower than that of the beer going
through it.  A little heat transfer:

Assume an aluminum cold plate at 255K (0 F), 5 gal of beer weighing 19
kg at 290K (62 F), and perfect heat transfer.  No heat transfer to the
freezer during dispensing (worst case, but not by much).  No temperature
change due to CO2 coming out of solution (not sure how much this matters).
Dispensing temperature to be 278K (40 F).

Specific heat of Al alloy: 820 J/kg/K
Specific heat of water (beer): 4184 J/kg/K
Equation:  mp*Cpp*(Tout-Tp) = mb*Cpb*(Tb-Tout)
           where p=plate, b=beer, Tout=dispensing temp.
Solve for mp, mass of plate:

mp = (19 kg)*(4184 J/kg/K)*(290K-278K)/(820 J/kg/K)/(278K-255K) = 51 kg
This means you'd need a 110 lb aluminum cold plate to dispense a whole
keg of beer.  Of course, it's all more complicated than that, because you
get a lot of temperature variation in the output of the plate as it warms.

One way to help this problem would be to put your cold plate in a pan of
antifreeze solution (like what you put in your car).  The bigger the
better, but don't ruin your freezer; water is heavy....


|     James W. Smith, NASA MSFC EP25     |     SMITH at epvax.msfc.nasa.gov     |
|           "Emancipate yourselves from mental slavery                       |
|            None but ourselves can free our minds"  --Bob Marley            |
|    Neither NASA nor (!James) is responsible for what I say.  Mea culpa.    | 


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Date: Mon, 4 Oct 93 10:03 CDT
From: arf at genesis.mcs.com (Jack Schmidling)
Subject: Cold Plates

 
 >From: Steve Christiansen <steven at sequent.com>
 
 >Sometimes this is done with ice on the cold plate.
 In other cases the cold plate is placed in a fridge or freezer.
 
 I have used a cold plate for years and assure you that they are totally 
 adequate for serving beer when used with ice.  I have noted people using them 
 in a fridge but can not imagine how that could work very well.   The 
 difference in heat transfer between ice water to aluminum vs refirgerator or 
 even freezer air is orders of magnitude.   A freezer might work for one glass 
 but that would be about it.  It that is all you want, it might be ok.
 
 >From: drose at husc.harvard.edu
 >Subject: Corona Motorization
 
 >I had been planning on buying a bolt of the appropriate size and cutting
 the head off, but as it was only $1.00, and as I was feeling a little
 guilty about the skimpiness of the rest of the order I was making, I got
 one. When it arrived, I was somewhat chagrinned to find that it consisted
 of a bolt with the head cut off. 
 
 This is a constant frustration for manufacturers who get accused of ripping 
 off customers for things that seem trivial.  Most people simply do not 
 understand the costs of manufacturing which must include purchasing, 
 inventory, interest, labor, overhead, markup for retail, taxes, shipping, 
 packaging, warranty... the list is endless.  Just what would you charge to 
 supply me with a bolt with the head cut off?  You got a bargain.
 
 > After alternating between states one and two for several minutes, I began 
 to fear for both the mechanical integrity of my drill, and the cleanliness of 
 my kitchen, and I gave up. So, what is the deal here.  Do I need a more 
 powerful drill?...
 
 You are simply experiencing the limitations of the so-called variable speed 
 drills on the market today.  They have very little torque at low speeds and 
 are pretty useless for your purpose.  I would suggest getting it to run at 
 the proper speed before filling the hopper and then adding grain only as fast 
 as it will take it.  This unfortuantely may not maintain enough pressure on 
 the plates for a consistant grind but sow's ears do not make silk purses.
 
 If you can afford a new drill, I highly recommend getting a geard-down 
 version of a 1/2" drill.  The power or size of the drill is not as important 
 and the gear ratio.  The higher ratio allows the motor to operate at higher 
 speed and produce much greater torque.
 
 You will, BTW, destroy you drill shortly after you smell smoke, if you 
 continue.
 
 js
 

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Date: Mon, 4 Oct 1993 12:19:16 -0400 (EDT)
From: William Pemberton <wfp5p at holmes.acc.virginia.edu>
Subject: Re: Pint Glasses


> Reading the discussions about different drinking containers reminded me of a
> problem I've had - I have not been able to find traditional English pint
> glasses (NOT the dimpled kind with the handle) anywhere in the U.S.  Does
> anyone know of a place that sells them, either direct or mail-order?  E-mail
> responses are fine.  Thanks.

If you mean the kind of slant sided pint glasses, Market St. Wine Shop
(downtown) has them.  They aren't QUITE traditional English, since they
are a US pint.

- -- 
Bill Pemberton                           wfp5p at virginia.edu
ITC/Unix Systems                         flash at virginia.edu
University of Virginia                   uunet!virginia!wfp5p


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Date: Mon, 4 Oct 93 12:55:46 EDT
From: pgs at ai.mit.edu (Patrick Sobalvarro)
Subject: grain mill evaluations (Boston Wort Processors' Krush-off 3/3)

Oops, it was pointed out to me that I neglected to include price
information in the third part of the Krush-off writeup, which included
the descriptions of the Listermann Mill and the Glatt Malt Mill.  The
prices in question are:

Listermann Malt Mill:   $75 + tax
Glatt Malt Mill:        $80 + $5 shipping

A lot of people have sent me mail asking for the address of Glatt
Machining.  Glatt's address has been published here before, but here
it is one more time:

    Glatt Machining
    920 Stanley Drive
    College Place, WA  99324
    (509) 529-2084

 -P.

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Date: Mon, 4 Oct 93 13:13:25 EDT
From: Spencer.W.Thomas at med.umich.edu
Subject: dryhopping rate

Yesterday I bought (and drank) a bottle of Young's Special London Ale.
This beer had the most vegetal hop character that I've ever
encountered in a bottled beer.  I have no idea how fresh it was (don't
know how to read the date code -- does anyone know if the "beer date
decoder" works on this label?), but it sure tasted fresh.

This stuff's got a LOT of dry hops in it.  It tastes about the same as
my IPA with 2 oz E.Kent Goldings hop plugs in 5 gallons, except
fresher!  (I did make the IPA back in the spring, I guess.)

If you're wondering about dry hop rates, you should try this beer.

=Spencer

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Date: Mon, 4 Oct 93 12:45:35 CDT
From: chips at coleslaw.me.utexas.edu (Chris Pencis)
Subject: cleaning/brewing tips

Do you have any tips, hints (such as vortex outflow from bottles
and carboys for rinsing etc) which have made the brewing and especially
the cleaning processes any easier? I'm on batch 8 and I'm looking to
begin streamlining the brew process....email address below. TIA 
If there is a demand, I will repost depending upon info recieved.
				Thanks, 
					Chris
======================================================================
|Chris Pencis 				chips at coleslaw.me.utexas.edu |
|University of Texas at Austin		Robotics Research Group	     |
======================================================================

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Date: Mon, 4 Oct 93 14:09:07 EDT
From: Jim Grady <grady at hpangrt.an.hp.com>
Subject: Re: Christmas Ale Recipe

Spencer Thomas asked if any water is used to simmer with the spices in
the Christmas Ale recipe I posted.

No, there isn't.  I put all the spices in the honey and heated it on low
for 45 min.  The honey gets pretty runny when heated.

Now that I think about it, I think I used a double boiler this time (in
which case there is some water but not with the ingredients!). 

Sorry for the confusion.
- --
Jim Grady              |"Root beer burps don't have to be said 'Excuse me'."
grady at hp-mpg.an.hp.com |                Robert Grady, age 4.75

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Date: Mon, 4 Oct 93 12:29:37 MDT
From: npyle at n33.stortek.com
Subject: Barley Wine fermentation schedule?

My latest brew is an all-grain barley wine, on the weak side.  The OG was
around 1.085 (boiled for many many hours!).  I was trying to get the OG higher,
but that is another story (I now know why many people do partial mash barley
wines!).

Anyway, I used a 1 pint starter from Wyeast London Ale yeast, which was
possibly a bit past high krauesen, in a 5 gallon batch.  The start of obvious
fermentation took over 24 hours, so I suspect I underpitched considerably.
Aeration was done with a venturi tube apperatus, using the falling cooled wort
(new CF chiller worked great!) to suck air into it.  It had a nice 3 inches or
more of foam on the top of the fermenter, so I think aeration was adequate
(maybe not?, read on...).

The kraeusen reached a couple of inches in about 3-4 days, and slowly levelled
off and went down to a 1/4 inch layer of foam after that.  After a week, I
sneaked a taste in the primary.  No off flavors, but _very_ sweet.  I didn't
take a gravity reading.  After another week, 2 weeks total in the primary, I
did a gravity reading and subsequent tasting.  The gravity was 1.055!!!  The
taste was (obviously) still very sweet.  I racked into my secondary, where the
beer will stay for a while, but for how long?  Am I looking at a 6 month
ferment here?  Is this normal for a high OG beer?  The strongest beer I've made
before was OG 1.057 and it acted quite normal (2 weeks to 1.015 or so).

I know this sounds like the standard "how long till I bottle" question, but it
pertains to the high gravity end of it.  I'm in no rush, but this could take
forever.  If this is not normal (which I suspect) should I aerate at this
point, add more yeast, nutrient, what?  Next time (there _will be_ a next time)
should I work extra hard (compared to "standard gravity" ales) at increasing
yeast population and oxygen content?

Thanks,
norm

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Date: Mon, 4 Oct 93 14:38:46 EDT
From: vella at tvrisc.timeplex.com (Jim Vella 470 XXXX )
Subject: North Jersey Suppliers


I am new to homebrewing and would like to know if there are some good
supply stores in North Jersey, or any good mail order suppliers.

Please respond to vella at tvrisc.timeplex.com

Thanks -

Jim Vella

############################################################
#        James F. Vella       # ascom Timeplex             #
# (vella at tvrisc.timeplex.com) # 470 Chestnut Ridge Road    #
#     201-391-6000 X6707      # Woodcliff Lake, N.J. 07675 #
############################################################

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Date: Mon, 4 Oct 93 13:24:39 EDT
From: sdlsb.dnet!73410%sdlcc at swlvx2.msd.ray.com (Omega)
Subject: Krush-off / help

Hi all,

First, thanks to Patrick Sobalvarro and the Boston Wort Processors for the
Krush-off info.  I now know which mill I will buy when the time comes.
On to the question.  I am currently extract brewing, and am attempting my
first lager.  It is based on the Pilsner Urquell clone on page 2-7 of the
Cat's Meow (2nd ed.) with variations due to on my local supplier's advice
and stock.  This is what I used:

5# Briess light malt syrup
1.75# Briess Gold dry malt extract
15.5 AAU Saaz
Wyeast #2007 into 26 oz. ~1.040 starter 48 hours before pitching

Added 1/3 of the hops at 60, 30, and 10 minutes.  Chilled the concentrated
wort (2 gallons) to 70F, added to 2.5 gal. of 70F water, pitched entire
starter (made from more of the Breiss Gold) and topped off to 5 gal. with
more 70F water.  Swirled to mix.  O.G. 1.026, when I expected closer to
1.050.  This is the first time I have used a hydrometer (out of five
batches).  I did correct for temperature.  What am I missing here?  Private
email please to 73410 at sdlcc.msd.ray.com.

Happy Brewing,
Carl Howes


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Date: Mon, 4 Oct 1993 15:23:19 -0500
From: steve at snake.appl.wpafb.af.mil (Steve Zabarnick)
Subject: Novice all-grainer's comments

Now that I have three all-grain batches under my belt (not literally,
yet!), I thought I should pass on a couple of the problems I've encountered
and solved for the benefit for other new all-grainers.

On my first two batches I encountered significant cooling (>5 degrees over
1.5 hours) during mashing in a 5 gallon Gott cooler. On my last batch I
encountered no cooling during a one hour mash. The trick is to preheat the
mash tun; I did this by filling the tun with hot tap water while heating up
the mash water (I do a single infusion mash). Also, I used US 2-row Klages
for the last batch and experienced much faster conversion (<45 mins) than
my other two batches which used English Pale Ale malt, presumably due to
the higher enzymatic activity of the Klages malt. (Has anyone encountered
any flavor differences between these grains?)

I also experienced very slow sparges (2 hours for 5 gallons) during my
first two batches. On this last batch, the sparge slowed to a trickle so
drastic action was called for. I dumped the mash out of my combined
mash/lauter tun (the above Gott cooler with Phil's false bottom), and
discovered that the mash had gotten under the false bottom. After removing
the mash from under the false bottom and dumping it back in the tun, I was
able to run the sparge as fast as I wanted. I believe the mash was getting
under the false bottom during the intense stirring of mash-in. To solve
this problem I may use a separate cooler for mashing and transfer the mash
into the lauter tun at the end of conversion.

Hope this helps prevent someone else from encountering these problems.

Steve Zabarnick

Steve Zabarnick
steve at snake.appl.wpafb.af.mil    OR
zabarnic at udavxb.oca.udayton.edu


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Date: Mon, 4 Oct 1993 15:54:19 -0400 (EDT)
From: Michael Ligas <ligas at mcmail.cis.mcmaster.ca>
Subject: Dave Barry observations (fwd)

- ---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Mon, 4 Oct 1993 13:28:37 -0400
From: NAME <ECLEMENT at ADMIN2.MEMST.EDU>
Subject: Dave Barry observations

>From Dave B's column yesterday, all about the new standard for testing
soap scum cleaner.

"Oh sure, you've seen TV commercials wherein the Cheerful Housewife,
standing in a bathroom the size of Radio City Music Hall, waltzes up to
a scum-encrusted tile, sprays it with a cleanser, and then wipes it off
to reveal a sparkling shine.  But these commercials are not filmed on
Earth; they're filmed on the Commercial Planet, where everything is different;
where fast-food-chain employees really are happy to serve you; where there
is some meaningful difference between Coke and Pepsi; and where "light"
beer does not taste like weasel spit."


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Date: Mon, 04 Oct 93 15:52:48 PDT
From: Robert Pulliam <Robert_Pulliam at rand.org>
Subject: Chillers, Yeast, and Stout



Greetings,

   Just wanted to drop a note of thanks and ask a couple of questions.
First of all thanks to all who gave me info on counterflow chillers a
couple of months ago.  I finally got around to building one last weekend
and it worked great in the test (boiling water) run.  It is 30 ft of
counterflow with an additional 15 ft immersed in ice water.  The water
was siphoned and the whole 5 gal took approximately 33 minutes (any way
to speed that up?) I left a small amount of flame on the burner to ensure
that the water continued to simmer throughout the entire process.  It took
the boiling water down to 55 degrees (great for lagers I guess.) I plan to
try it without the ice bath to see what the temp change is.  Anyway,
thanks again.  Secondly, a question or two.  I plan on brewing a pale ale
this weekend and a stout next weekend.  I would like (read only enough
money allotted by the wife) to generate a starter from a WYeast packet that
would work well for both brews.  Any suggestions?  Also, I am looking for
an all grain recipe for a Murphy's stout.  Anyone?  Class, class.
Anyone?

Robert J. Pulliam            |+|all thoughts, statements, and opinions,|+|
Los Angeles, CA.             |+|demented or not, should be my own; and |+|
pulliam at monty.rand.org       |+|I'm certainly not associated . . . . . |+|

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Date: Mon, 4 Oct 93 21:59:59 PDT
From: Mark Garetz <mgaretz at hoptech.com>
Subject: Two Hop Topics

There has been a bit of discussion here lately about two hop
topics:  gravity vs. utilization and dry hop bitterness.

Gravity vs. Utilization:

In the research for my book, I have tried to verify the common
homebrew wisdom that high gravity *boils* make a difference in
the hop utilization by attempting to find references in the 
commercial brewing literature.  I have not been able to find *any*
mention that wort *boil* gravity makes any difference in hop 
utilization.  The gravity at the start of *fermentation* does make
a difference, meaning that low gravity beers get better utilization
than high gravity beers.  Note that this is a fermentation effect,
not a boil gravity effect, and varies depending on the fermentation
technique.  Anyway, the *volume* of the boil *will* make a 
difference, which may explain Norm's comments about needing less
hops when switching to all grain (full volume) boils.

I asked Gail Nickerson this question ("Does boil gravity affect
utilization?") and she said (paraphrasing), "No.  Not unless you
were boiling a syrup or something of that consistency.  And if it
did, it would be known because the big boys are all using high 
gravity brewing techniques these days."

To summarize, then, it appears that low boil volume (regardless
of the SG) gives less utilization, but *boil* gravity has no effect.
But as the gravity of the *fermenting* wort increases, utilization
decreases - the amount depends on your fermenting methods.

Bitterness from Dry Hopping

I am at loss on this one.  I, for one, have never noticed it.  A 
lot of brewers report a pronounced *astringency* but not bitterness.
This will go away in few weeks.  It is possible that some of the
alpha acids in the hops had been converted to iso-alphas, but I
think this is unlikely.  The hops would have gone "cheesy" long
before there was significant conversion from ambient heat, etc.
It is also possible that oxidized beta acids are the culprit.
They are bitter, but again, I would think that the alphas too
would have oxidized along with the betas, and we would be back in
cheese city.  They're also not very soluble.

But here's the real issue:  Brewer's report a *great deal* of
bitterness and they have used 1 oz (or less) of an aroma hop, in
a process without heat or agitation.  If they used the same amount
of hops in the boil, would it have contributed the same amount of
"undrinkable" bitterness?  I think not.  (you have to get way up
there to get "undrinkable" IBUs).

So what's going on?  Obviously something is happening because we
have to assume the brewers with the dry hop bitterness are telling
the truth and that they're not imagining it.  Are they mistaking
astringency for bitterness?  OTOH, those that report this bitter
effect are a minority - a lot of brewers dry hop all the time and
never have this effect, not to mention Anchor Liberty and Sam Adams
Boston Lager, both of which are dry-hopped.  Many, many barrels of
these two brews are produced annually with none of these problems.
Still, it would be nice to get to the bottom of it.

Suggestions?

Mark


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End of HOMEBREW Digest #1240, 10/05/93