FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Rob Gardner, Digest Coordinator


Contents:
  Montreal brewpubs/watering holes info wanted. (Gerald_Wirtz)
  Lambic Beers and U.S. Microbreweries (Matthew Evans)
  Fast cooling of high gravity boils. (lyons)
  RE: crush off/hop util/S. Adams (Jim Busch)
  chilling extract brew (David Atkins)
  Hop Utilization and Gravity (Jim Liddil)
  SPGRAV: program to perform hydrometer corrections at any base (Spencer.W.Thomas)
  Re: SPGRAV: program to perform hydrometer corrections at any base (Kurt Swanson)
  Hop substitutions, cheap carboys (Domenick Venezia)
  Flavor and aroma hops (Scott Stihler (USGS analyst))
  Comments on Molasses ("John C. Post")
  Re: Barleywine ferment/Dryhopping (Jeff Frane)
  First all grain: the procedure (Ed Oriordan)
  Re: Krush-Off (Bill Slack)
  Maple syrup/sap (rick621)
  Milling about (korz)
  NO POPCORN, PLEASE! ("Marlene Spears")
  Mash out necessary? (Domenick Venezia)
  Krush Off Kwestion (Patrick Sobalvarro)
  Cut rate glassware (Aaron Morris)
  Pumpkin Ale Recipe ("Anthony Johnston")
  Re: Chilling Wort ("Pamela J. Day 7560")
  Victorian Ales (Chris McDermott)
  spiced beer ("JSDAWS1 at PROFSSR")
  Rager Number Error (Mark Garetz)
  Hops (what else?) (Mark Garetz)


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----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:           Wed, 6 Oct 93 7:56 EDT
From: Gerald_Wirtz at vos.stratus.com
Subject:        Montreal brewpubs/watering holes info wanted.

     I'll be heading to Montreal this weekend and would appreciate any
information on and good brewpubs/watering holes in the area.

     Direct replies appreciated.

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Date: Wed, 6 Oct 93 09:23:03 -0400
From: Daniel McMahon <dmcmahon at blanche.acq.osd.mil>

From: dmcmahon
Full-Name: Daniel McMahon at pr
Subject: 5 Ltr Mini Kegs
To: homebrew at hpfcmi.fc.hp.com

I'm looking for some feedback on the pros and cons of using 5 liter
"mini kegs", as opposed to bottling.  I can get them empty for ~$5  
at my local homebrew supply store (or buy them full of Dinkelacker
or Grolsch and drink that first) and buy a CO2 tap for ~$35 to use
with them.  

Anyone have any good/bad experiences with these mini kegs?  I intend
some day to step up to 5 gallon Cornelius kegs, but currently:
(1) I don't have another refrigerator to dedicate to brewing and
(2) The total costs for fridge, CO2 tank and connections, and kegs
are prohibitive.  Is this interim step worthwhile?  It seems to be   
convenient by saving time and space at minimal initial cost.

Any and all input is appreciated!

Dan McMahon    

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Date: Wed, 06 Oct 1993 09:30:54 EDT
From: Matthew Evans <matt at cadif.cornell.edu>
Subject: Lambic Beers and U.S. Microbreweries

I've got a couple questions, hopefully someone out there knows the answer 
to these questions:

1)  Is there any U.S. brewery producing a true lambic beer (besides the 
Cranberry Lambic from the Boston Brewing Co)?  If not, why not?  

2)  I've read before that the various yeasts and bacteria needed for lambic 
beers are available in the US, but where is a good commercial source (or 
free source) of these microrganisms?

3)  Has anyone tried making a homebrewed lambic in small batches.  If you 
have I would really like to talk to you about the process, as Kriek Lambic is 
my favorite beer and I would like to duplicate the sour bite found only in 
lambic beers.

4)  Are there any good publications about microbreweries?  Particularly I'm 
interested in getting some start up information for an Entrepreneurial 
Business class at school.

5)  Finally, in this long list of questions, does anyone have the number for
the Celis brewery in Texas that makes Belgian style beers?


Thanks for your help in advance.  Please send responses to me at 
mce1 at cornell.edu.  Thanks and happy brewing!!!

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Date: Wed, 6 Oct 93 10:01:36 EDT
From: lyons%adc1 at swlvx2.msd.ray.com
Subject: Fast cooling of high gravity boils.

(John Pavao writes in HBD#1239:)
>> (snip)
>> I am wondering if I would be better or worse off if I chilled the
>> concentrated wort before adding it to the cold water in the carboy.

(Carl Howes writes in HBD#1241:)

>I would say chill your concentrate first since it will be easier to do.
>For my first several batches I added the hot partial wort to the cold
>water in the fermenter a la Papazian, but in view of the recent warnings
>about HSA I went for chilling the partial boil (in my case about 2
>gallons) to pitching temperature before adding it to the carboy for my
>latest batch.  This took placing my kettle in a sink full of cold water
>and changing the water three times over 45 minutes.  On adding hot
>concentrate it took seven hours for the batch to cool to pitching temp on
>its own, and a kitchen sink full of cold water had no noticable effect.
>An immersion chiller would likely be more effective, but I have not yet
>made one.  BTW, I tried sending this by private email but it bounced.

I'm one of those who believe it is important to cool the wort ASAP after
boiling is complete (limit DMS).  Keeping this in mind, I add two large
blocks of ice.  This quickly brings the temperature down for pitching the
yeast (yes, ice at 32F will provide more cooling than water at 32F).  If
you believe adding tap water does not create a problem, then ice blocks 
made of tap water will not cause a problem and will cool even faster.
The important thing in making the ice blocks is not to introduce any 
wild yeasts.  In other words, the water which is to become ice should
be placed in a previously sanitized container which can be completely
CLOSED from the environment (the freezer is teeming with nasty guys that
like to spoil beer).  I use one gallon plastic milk containers and fill
them half way (just below the handle).  They are easily cut with a knife
and the ice block extracted. If you are one of those concerned with using
tap water, then pre-boil the water first (and remember, boiled water will
freeze faster than unboiled water ... less O2).  I think the addition of 
ice blocks is a better technique than using an immersion chiller 
when doing high gravity boils (which are diluted to final volume after 
the boil).  The immersion chiller is the correct choice for full volume
boils, since you do not want to dilute the wort of a full volume boil.

Chris

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Date: Wed, 6 Oct 1993 10:41:32 -0500 (EDT)
From: Jim Busch <busch at daacdev1.stx.com>
Subject: RE: crush off/hop util/S. Adams

I read with interest the ongoing comparisons between mills.  I am more
interested in the comparisons of extract efficiency from the test
brews.  I know that my extract went down when I switched from pre ground
Briess to corona ground, then the extract returned to the preground 
equivelent with the adjustable MaltMill. Any results from the test, or
were they all the same in the end??

***************
With respect to Mark's comments on hop utilization and the lack of 
professional journels reports on the subject, I believe it is covered
in Malting & Brewing Science, by Hough et al (not sure as I dont own
this excellent set) but it is certainly covered in the German literature
by Dr. Narziss, of the Weihenstephan institute, in Freising.  At any
rate, the correlation between high OG and hop utilization is well 
known and accepted by the pro brewers I hang out with.
***************

A while back I posted a bit about Mr. Kochs Jamaica Plains brewery but
had not actually been there. I was there the Saturday before last, and
the Sudhaus is indeed impressive, dual 15 BBl decoction kettles, each
with a grain feed, and water spray.  The guides were a bit annoying,
especially with respect to comments like "everyone knows no good hops
are grown in the US" .  I just couldnt let this one pass, so I pointed
out that if one sampled a Petes Wicked Lager, the US grown Liberty hops
could be compared to the German equivelent.  Needless to say, they were
not pleased to hear the words "Petes.." spoken in the hallowed grounds
of Sam Adams......:-)

Good brewing,
Jim Busch

DE HOPPEDUIVEL DRINKT MET ZWIER 'T GEZONDE BLOND HOPPEBIER!


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Date: Wed, 06 Oct 93 09:46 CDT
From: David Atkins <ATKINS at macc.wisc.edu>
Subject: chilling extract brew

I too do that extract brew.  Here's how I chill.
 
My method involves a carboy primary--5, 6.5 or 7 gal size.
 
My primary is a 7 gal carboy...I don't know if I'll ever use a bucket again.
 
 
I chill the boil pot in a sink of cold water for a few minutes...ice and those
refreezable faux-ice packets work well in the bath.  Placing about 1.5 gals of
cold water into the carboy, I funnel my extract into the container then fill up
to 5 gals with a heady stream of cold water.  I find that the heady stream 1)
aid aeration and 2) cools wort not just by heat exchange with the water but with
heat exchange with the air...get's real frothy.
 
Once filled, I bung the carboy shut and for 10 - 20 minutes I prop carboy on
edge of sink and gentle wash the carboy with cold water.  If you don't have one
of those built in sink spray nozzles (like me) use those cheap faucet-shower
attachment hoses you can find at a drug or discount store (a 2-3 feet length of
rubber hose with an exceedingly simple adapter on one end and a shower head on
the other; the shower head is removeable)  I use the hose in cleaning as well as
wort chilling and carboy filling--remember to sanitize though.
 
While chilling the carboy, rotating it slightly from time to time, I take the
opportunity to shake the container, further aerating the wort.  From the start
of chill to the yeast pitch takes 20-30 minutes.
 
If you would like info on finding 6-7 gals carboys let me know.  I do business
with a good supplier.  They don't know me, just my credit card number (read as
disclaimer).
 
Take care,
David Atkins
UW-Madison-Where every morning, leaving the house is its own cold break
atkins at macc.wisc.edu

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Date: Wed, 6 Oct 1993 7:51:33 -0700 (MST)
From: Jim Liddil <JLIDDIL at AZCC.Arizona.EDU>
Subject: Hop Utilization and Gravity

% 
% Date: Mon, 4 Oct 93 21:59:59 PDT
% From: Mark Garetz <mgaretz at hoptech.com>
% Subject: Two Hop Topics
% 
% There has been a bit of discussion here lately about two hop
% topics:  gravity vs. utilization and dry hop bitterness.
% 
% Gravity vs. Utilization:
% 
% In the research for my book, I have tried to verify the common
% homebrew wisdom that high gravity *boils* make a difference in
% the hop utilization by attempting to find references in the 
% commercial brewing literature.  I have not been able to find *any*
% mention that wort *boil* gravity makes any difference in hop 
% utilization.  The gravity at the start of *fermentation* does make
% a difference, meaning that low gravity beers get better utilization
% than high gravity beers.  Note that this is a fermentation effect,
% not a boil gravity effect, and varies depending on the fermentation
% technique.  Anyway, the *volume* of the boil *will* make a 
% difference, which may explain Norm's comments about needing less
% hops when switching to all grain (full volume) boils.

I suggest you get a copy of Malting and Brewing Science by JS Hough and read
the hop chapter and the wort boiling chapters.  Then I think you will see that
indeed wort gravity does affect hop utilization.  
% 
% I asked Gail Nickerson this question ("Does boil gravity affect
% utilization?") and she said (paraphrasing), "No.  Not unless you
% were boiling a syrup or something of that consistency.  And if it
% did, it would be known because the big boys are all using high 
% gravity brewing techniques these days."
% 
Can she provide a reasearch reference for this statement?  As we say in rearch
land "If it isn't published it didn't happen"

% To summarize, then, it appears that low boil volume (regardless
% of the SG) gives less utilization, but *boil* gravity has no effect.

Wrong!

% But as the gravity of the *fermenting* wort increases, utilization
% decreases - the amount depends on your fermenting methods.

What does volume have to do with it?  If alpha acids are in to high a
concentration then utilization goes down due to solubility issues.  But rather
than quote chapter and verse from M and B Science I suggest you read it and
then repost.


% 

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Date: Wed, 6 Oct 93 10:58:22 EDT
From: Spencer.W.Thomas at med.umich.edu
Subject: SPGRAV: program to perform hydrometer corrections at any base

This polynomial is much better than the previous one that was posted.
However, why not just go to the source?  The CRC Handbook of Chemistry
and Physics lists the S.G. of water at various temperatures, and these
correspond exactly to the correction factors that come with the
hydrometer, except they go up to 100C.  Of course, there's still the
complicating factor of the sugar in solution to contend with, but I
haven't found any source for this.  A quick experiment I did with some
1.032 sugar solution found that the table was still correct, within
the resolution of my hyrometer, anyway.  (Does anyone know of a source
of S.G. tables for sugar solutions at various concentrations and
temperatures?) 

For those of us who don't have a computer sitting in our brewhouse,
here's a table to print out and keep handy.  The correction is
computed by subtracting the table value for a given temperature from
the table value for 15C (which is what MY hydrometer is calibrated
for) and rounded to the nearest "SG point".  

Temp C          Correction      Table SG        
 0              -1              999.87          
 5              -1              999.99          
10              -1              999.73          
15               0              999.13          
20               1              998.23          
25               2              997.07          
30               3              995.67          
35               5              994.06          
40               7              992.24          
45               9              990.25          
50              11              988.07          
55              13              985.73          
60              16              983.24          
65              19              980.59          
70              21              977.81          
75              24              974.89          
80              27              971.83          
85              30              968.65          
90              34              965.34          
95              37              961.92          
100             41              958.38          

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Date: Wed, 6 Oct 1993 16:08:41 +0100 (MET)
From: Kurt Swanson <Kurt.Swanson at dna.lth.se>
Subject: Re: SPGRAV: program to perform hydrometer corrections at any base

Spencer W. Thomas (Spencer.W.Thomas at med.umich.edu) in this HBD writes:
> 
> This polynomial is much better than the previous one that was posted.
> However, why not just go to the source?  The CRC Handbook of Chemistry
> and Physics lists the S.G. of water at various temperatures, and these
> correspond exactly to the correction factors that come with the
> hydrometer, except they go up to 100C.

How do you think I got the polynomial.  SPGRAV works with very high
accuracy from 00C to 1000C...  The polynomial is needed instead of the
table because most people make temperature measurements with greater
than 50C accuracy...
- -- 
Kurt Swanson, Dept. of Computer Science,
Lunds universitet.  Kurt.Swanson at dna.lth.se

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Date: Wed, 6 Oct 1993 08:16:50 -0700 (PDT)
From: Domenick Venezia <venezia at zgi.com>
Subject: Hop substitutions, cheap carboys

I'm still trying to perfect that Fuller's clone and I am looking for a good
substitution for British Northdown hops.  I've  used Cluster in the past
but I'm underwelmed by the flavor contribution of Cluster.

How about Styrian Goldings, or Pride of Ringwood?  Both of which are
available locally (Seattle).  Kent Goldings?  Fuggles/Willamette?

How about substitutions for Challenger and Target too?

Since I have never encountered Northdown, Challenger, or Target I'm
working in the dark on substitutions.  Can anyone recommend a good book
on hop characteristics.  Gardening info is wasted pages. 

Whoever was looking for cheap carboys in HBD #1241,

St. Patrick's of Texas Brewers Supply
12922 Staton Drive
Austin, TX  78727
(512) 832-9045

7 gallon carboys - $12 - shipped in styrofoam eggs (really cool)
They take about a #6.5 stopper, not the #7 or #7.5 listed in St. Pat's
catalog.  The necks are threaded and included is the original plastic
cap.  The only thing "wrong" with these carboys is that you can't use
those nifty orange carboy cap things with the two tubes.  On the other
hand trying to get a 5 gallon all-grain batch into a 5 gallon carboy
can be quite a trick.

Domenick Venezia
ZymoGenetics, Inc.
venezia at zgi.com




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Date: 	Tue, 5 Oct 1993 23:46:25 -0800
From: scott at fm.gi.alaska.edu (Scott Stihler (USGS analyst))
Subject: Flavor and aroma hops

Greetings all,

I have a question regarding hops. A friend of mine took the AHA beer judge 
certification test last April and one of the question he had was "What is the
difference between flavor and aroma hops and give examples?" This question
confuses me. I was under the impression that they are both the same.  I thought
the volatile hop oils which are responsible for aroma are also responsible for
hop flavor. Does anybody know the correct answer to the AHA question and if I'm
totally off base could ya straighten me out?

Cheers,

Scott

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Date: Wed,  6 Oct 1993 08:53:14 -0800
From: "John C. Post" <jpost@ llnl.gov>
Subject: Comments on Molasses

A few notes on Molasses in Beer...

1) DON'T use sulphured molasses. Yuck!

2) Molasses takes a *long* time to ferment out completely, not as long as 
honey, but much longer than malt. 

3) If you have time to wait until 2) is complete, it can be a wonderful 
accoutrement (College Word!) to the right recipe...I like it best with some 
zippy hops, such as Saazer or a nice fresh Cascade.

You might try some Black Treacle for an interesting flavour kick. You can 
usually get it at those expensive gourmet stores (Williams-Sonoma comes to 
mind...)

john



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Date: Wed, 6 Oct 1993 09:59:44 -0700 (PDT)
From: gummitch at techbook.com (Jeff Frane)
Subject: Re: Barleywine ferment/Dryhopping

npyle at n33.stortek.com
> Subject: Barley Wine fermentation schedule?
> 
> 
> Anyway, I used a 1 pint starter from Wyeast London Ale yeast, which was
> possibly a bit past high krauesen, in a 5 gallon batch.  The start of obvious
> fermentation took over 24 hours, so I suspect I underpitched considerably.

Bing, bing, bing.  You win the $64,000 question.  Your very slow (and
possibly incomplete) fermentation is almost certainly a result of
underpitching.  A one-pint starter (presumably stepped up only once from
the Wyeast package) is OK (tho not great) for a "normal" OG, but high
gravity worts require WAY more yeast.  It's not out of the question at
this point for you to make a quickie batch of more normal ale, collect
a couple of pints of furiously fermenting wort, and bung that into your
barleywine.  It worked for me years ago, although it was a little
earlier in the barleywine's life.  

garetz at hoptech.com>
> Subject: Two Hop Topics
> 
> There has been a bit of discussion here lately about two hop
> topics:  gravity vs. utilization and dry hop bitterness.
> 
> Gravity vs. Utilization:
> 
> In the research for my book, I have tried to verify the common
> homebrew wisdom that high gravity *boils* make a difference in
> the hop utilization by attempting to find references in the 
> commercial brewing literature.  I have not been able to find *any*
> mention that wort *boil* gravity makes any difference in hop 
> utilization.  

As a datapoint, your text research bears out my own experience with
hopping rates.  High gravity worts generally require higher hopping
rates, but it's because they need higher bitterness levels to balance
the greater body and sweetness of the beer.

> 
> Bitterness from Dry Hopping
> 
> I am at loss on this one.  I, for one, have never noticed it.  A 
> lot of brewers report a pronounced *astringency* but not bitterness.
> This will go away in few weeks.  It is possible that some of the
> alpha acids in the hops had been converted to iso-alphas, but I
> think this is unlikely.  The hops would have gone "cheesy" long
> before there was significant conversion from ambient heat, etc.

I have never experienced either effect in one of my dry-hopped beers.  I
leave the hops in the kegs for many weeks without getting any "cheesy"
quality -- probably because cheesiness is a property of oxidation -- and
I've never noticed any additional bitterness even though I dry-hop
pretty heavily.

On the other hand: I was present at a tasting at UC Davis, of various
beers that had been hopped at varying times.  You should talk to Michael
Lewis about this, since he ran the program, but he, his students and
those of us in the class who were actually brewers, were all surprised
at the discernible bitterness in the one beer that had only been
dry-hopped -- NO bittering hops or aroma hops in the boil.  And, believe
me, in case you don't know Michael Lewis, the QC around  this issue was
very high and the hopping rates were pretty damn low.

Me, I have to assume the problems homebrewers are having is Pilot Error,
and has almost nothing to do with dry-hopping.  Just a guess.

- --Jeff Frane


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Date: Wed, 6 Oct 93 13:33:22 -0400
From: edo at marcam.com (Ed Oriordan)
Subject: First all grain: the procedure

I am preparing for my first all grain attempt in the next couple of weekends.
This is what I am planning on doing.  At the end I have some questions, that
I would appreciate if anybody could respond to.

Also, if anything looks strange, and you are wondering why I'm doing it, I 
probably don't know, so let me know.


My equipment for brewing will be as follows

36 qt cooler
1/2" Slotted copper pipe manifold sparger to 3/8" reducer
10 gallon enamel pot
gas cooker burner type thing
chiller
7 gallon glass primary fermenter with blow-off
5 gallon glass secondary fermenter with air lock

1) Grind grains the night before.
2) Heat 1 qt water per lb grain to 168F. Add some gypsum (2 Tbl.?) to lower pH.
3) Preheat Cooler with hot water.
4) Add grain and water to mash tun (cooler) on top of manifold. Stir.
5) Check mash temp, adjust as needed to around 154F.
6) Close cooler for 1 hour.
7) Open cooler do Iodine test for conversion.  If not converted close
   up longer.
8) Add crystal, chocolate and cara-pils (all specialty grains).
9) Raise temp to 170F (mashout) by adding near boiling (200F) water.
10) Stir till 170F is hit.  Close cooler let sit 15 minutes.
11) Hook 3/8" clear tubing to manifold.  Backflush with some near boiling water
12) Sprinkle 4 galons 180F sparge water (add gypsum to get pH 5 - 5.5) in
    cooler.
13) Start siphon, keep putting liquid back in cooler till get clear run off.
    Siphon into brew kettle. Try for no aeration.
14) From here on I assume it is same as extract, but with more volume
    (note: I already use a cooling coil).

Q1 - Equip - Is 36 qt cooler ok for size (5 gallon batches)? 11.25 lbs grain.
Q2 - Step 7 - If not converted and temp is lower than 154F should I adjust it
back up?  Should I check every 15 minutes or leave closed?
Q3 - Step 8 - Is this the correct time to add specialty grains? Why?
Q4 - Step 10 - Is it ok to stir?  Is 15 minutes good?
Q5 - Step 12 - Should I sprinkle it all in at once or just enough to cover
grain bed and then continue adding so that I maintain a level 2 inches above
the bed? I have a feeling the latter is correct, why? Stuck sparge?
Q6 - Step 13 - I am nervous about the sparge,  I hear stories of it taking a
long time.  Using the manifold will I get a continuous siphon or will I have
to restart it periodically? How fast should I siphon? Will I have to slow the
siphon down?  This step is somewhat of a mystery as to how it actually will
go so some help would be appreciated?  I know I'm washing the sugars off the
grain.  What about astringency? How do I know when I've gone long enough?
How long will this step take (approximately)?
Q7 - All this talk of oxidation.  Where do I have to worry about it?  In the
past the only place I have airated was going into the primary, and the only
place I have specifically not airated is after the yeast kicks in through
bottling.

Thanks a lot 

Ed O'

edo at marcam.com

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Date: Wed, 6 Oct 93 12:20:07 EDT
From: wslack.UUCP!wrs at mv.MV.COM (Bill Slack)
Subject: Re: Krush-Off

Phil Miller asks if the crush evaluation was blind at the Boston Wort
Processor Krush-Off.

No, each crush was identified to the Krush Kommittee. A quart jar was filled
from each crush and was used for evaluation. Evaluations were made as the
crush became available. All samples were kept and referred to by the
committee when establishing relative quality of crush. I far as I know, no
one on the committee had any favorite mill or predetermined expectations. I
use a Corona, Bob Gorman ordered a Glatt Mill (don't know if this was before
or after the test) and I don't know what Scott Keohane uses. We all watched
the various tests as they took place. It was all pretty open and there were
lots of opinions expressed by all present. In my opinion, the tests and
evaluations were conducted in a fair and complete manner. A lot of people
put in a lot of effort to pull this off and I think they succeeded.

Bill

__
wrs at gozer.mv.com (Bill Slack)
    



    

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Date: Wed, 06 Oct 93 14:14:05 EDT
From: rick621 at aol.com
Subject: Maple syrup/sap

Hi all, I'm new to the digest and enjoy reading the thoughts and ideas posted
here. I have been brewing extracts for a few years and now want to try
something different. I also make my own Maple syrup. I have heard of people
using this in beer and also using the uncooked sap instead of water. If
anyone has a receipe, and/or experience with using syrup or sap I would
appreciate your thoughts on the subject. You can post it on the digest or
E-mail me at   Rick621 at aol.com

Thanks 

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Date: Wed, 6 Oct 93 13:06 CDT
From: korz at iepubj.att.com
Subject: Milling about

Gang--
Before another flame war ensues regarding commercialism on the HBD,
I'd like to say that Jack has done homebrewing a great service in
providing an affordable (to most) alternative to the Corona and for
doing a great deal of research on the crushing of grain.  I've seen
no less than 8 different designs of MaltMills, each design (usually)
better than the last.  He has shown me grain crushed by various
designs and asked me to choose which samples appeared to be the
best crush.  I'm told he has used my opinions as well as the evaluations
of other homebrewers and experts at the Siebel Institute of Brewing
to improve the design of the MaltMill.  His mill has set a high standard
for other mills that have followed.  Granted, Jack has a financial
interest in having his mill represented well in the HBD, but then
again, if you re-read his latest post, you'll see that there is a
lot of good, mill-independent infomation in there.  I, for one,
appreciate him sharing this information openly.

Al.

Disclaimer: I own a retail store and currently sell three of the mills
in the Krush-off and plan to sell one more of them soon.  I've done
evaluations myself of all but the antique mill in the Krush-off and
have only chosen to not stock one of them due to what I deemed a poor
crush (this was NOT one of the mills that is commercially built as
a homebrewing malt mill).

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Date:      Wed, 06 Oct 1993 14:08:58 EDT
From: "Marlene Spears" <hopfen!marlene at uunet.UU.NET>
Subject:   NO POPCORN, PLEASE!

In HBD #1240, brewerbob at aol.com wrote about using *real* popcorn as
packing material for shipping homebrew to competitions.  Please
cease and desist!  Don't send popcorn unless you're shipping to a
friend who doesn't mind receiving it!

When the 1st Round AHA Nats were held in Boston, I was one of the lucky
unpackers.  Over the four sessions, I found *all* sorts of packing
material, including -- oh, ye gods and little fishes! -- *buttered*,
*salted* popcorn, which greased up the bottles, the labels, the entry
forms, the checks, and my hands.  It was really gross, kiddies.  And
if it wasn't salted and buttered, at least the popcorn was stale and
at worst it was moldy.  NO WAY was I about to ingest any of the stuff.
I'm glad I didn't find any bugs or rodents in the boxes!

I only wanted to get the bottles unpacked, tagged, and sorted so I could
dig into the goodies Bill Murphy (site coordinator) had bought -- with
his own funds, since the AHA wasn't reimbursing.  And even parsimonious
and uncooperative Smadams let us have draft brew.  I hear Anchor is
more generous.

If you want to be kind to the unpackers, use shredded newspaper.  It
doesn't have the static electricity problems like styrofoam "popcorn".
After that, make sure your bottles are blank, with the proper labels attached
by rubber bands, with blacked out caps, and without incised lettering;
then make sure your entry forms and payment are included, and have the
box blessed so the UPS box gremlins don't screw it up.

- -- 
- --------------

marlene at hopfen.rsi.com

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Date: Wed, 6 Oct 1993 11:20:41 -0700 (PDT)
From: Domenick Venezia <venezia at zgi.com>
Subject: Mash out necessary?

After drilling into my right knee, steeping my feet in hot wort, melting 
the kitchen floor, and nearly removing the tip of my left index and middle 
fingers (I am NOT a klutz), I have decided to set aside my "Zap-pap" 
food bucket lauter tun and try sparging with a copper manifold.  The
situation is this:  I have a 10 gallon stainless brew kettle and any number 
of plastic food buckets, and good warm boxes.  If I mash in a food bucket
in a warm box then I can preheat the sparge water in the brew kettle, but
then have no way to mash out without transfering water and mash all over
the place.  Now, Miller (TCBoHB) is adamant that mash out is absolutely
necessary.  Others are less certain.  Hey, it's going to be boiling in a 
few minutes anyway.  What are the opinions from HBD land?  Is it more of a
factor with lauter tun sparges rather than manifold sparges?  

Thanks in advance.

Domenick Venezia
ZymoGenetics, Inc.
venezia at zgi.com




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Date: Wed, 6 Oct 93 14:32:10 EDT
From: pgs at ai.mit.edu (Patrick Sobalvarro)
Subject: Krush Off Kwestion

   Date: Tue, 5 Oct 93 08:09:50 CDT
   From: pmiller at mmm.com (Philip . Miller)

   Many thanks to the Boston Wort Processors et al for the interesting
   post on mills.  Just a quick question:  was it a blind judging?
   (I.e., did the judges know which mill ground the grains they were
   judging?)

The judging was not blind; the judges did know which mill ground the
grains they were judging.  In fact, they watched the grinding take
place, and some of them even went so far as to make fun of the
operators of the mills.  And, frankly, I noticed that a couple of them
drank a pretty fair amount of beer as the afternoon wore on.  They're
kind of shifty characters to begin with, actually.

 -P.

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Date:         Wed, 06 Oct 93 15:00:04 EDT
From: Aaron Morris <SYSAM at ALBANY.ALBANY.EDU>
Subject:      Cut rate glassware

Not wishing to travel to Chicago for carboys, I went to a local Corning
outlet and was ecstatic to find 5 gallon carboys for $8.99, less than
three miles from my home!  That was the good news.  The bad news was
that the local Corning outlet only had 5 gallon carboys and I was
looking for six and three gallon carboys.  The less-than-pleasant sales
person informed me that in no way, shape or form does Corning make
or market anything other than 5 gallon carboys and there was no way in
the world that she could procure for me 6 or 3 gallon carboys.  This
doesn't ring right to me.  Does the outlet in Chicago have 3 and 65
gallon carboys?  Unfortunately, I didn't save the address for the
Corning outlet in Chicago.  If they do have 3 and 6 gallon carboys
available for shipping, would some kind soul please mail to me the
address/phone number of that outlet.  Thanks in advance!

Aaron Morris (SYSAM at ALBNYVM1)

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Date: Wed, 6 Oct 93 14:47:23 CDT
From: "Anthony Johnston" <anthony at chemsun.chem.umn.edu>
Subject: Pumpkin Ale Recipe

Because of the number of requests for Pumpkin Ale I have seen on the HBD
recently, here is one that I particularly enjoy:

Barefoot Pumpkin Ale

Bring to a boil 1qt water.  Add 1 29oz can of pumpkin (I recommend
Libby's because it is 100% pumpkin.  So are most other brands, but make
sure before you use it.)  Stir.  Add 1 3.3 lb can of DMS Malt extract.
Stir.  The temp should come to about 152 F.  Hold at this temp for 40
mins.  While this is going on you can get the rest of the ingredients to
a boil in your brewpot:

1 gallon water
3.3 lbs NW (Briess) Amber malt

Add pumpkin mash (mush?) to the brewpot and bring to a boil.  Add 1 oz
German Hallertauer pellets and 1 oz Hersbrucker plugs.  Boil 45 mins.
Add 1 oz Hallertauer pellets, 2 cinnamon sticks (about 2-2.5 inches
long), 1 tsp ground cardamom, 2 tsp whole cloves, 1 tsp + 1 shake of
nutmeg, 1 tsp ground allspice, 1 tbsp ground ginger, and 1 Tbsp Irish
Moss flakes.  Let boil 10 mins.  Add 0.5 oz Saaz pellets.  Reduce (turn
off heat) and cover brewpot and let steep for 5 mins.

As I recall, sparging this mess to the fermenter was a problem because
the pumpkin is a real fine mush.  I think I just added all of it to my
primary and topped it off to about 5 or 5.5 gals, let it cool and racked
away from the mush that settled out.  This leaves a lot behind.  When I
make this again, I will do a full volume boil and use a wort chiller and
this should cause most of the stuff to drop out.

Yeast:  Whitbread Ale Yeast
OG = 1.040
Racked to secondary  at  1.010
FG = ca. 1.006-8

Tasting notes:  Real nice spice/hops balance.  Good color and very
clear.  I would enter this in a contest, but I bottled it entirely into
large bottles. :)

Comments/suggestions/criticisms(constructive) should be emailed direct
to:

anthony at chemsun.chem.umn.edu


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Date: Wed, 6 Oct 1993 16:28:00 EST
From: "Pamela J. Day 7560" <DAY at A1.TCH.HARVARD.EDU>
Subject: Re: Chilling Wort

I don't bother trying to chill my wort, instead I make sure that the
water in the fermenter is a cold as I can possibly get it. I either 
put it in a spare refrigerator (alas a luxury) the night before I brew
or in the winter I put it out on the porch until it's cold. Depending
upon how cold the water in the primary is, after I pour boiling wort
into it, it's down to anywhere between 65-80F immediatly. If I wind 
up having to wait to pitch, it's usually less than an hour.

Good Luck!

pam  

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Date: Wed, 06 Oct 1993 17:51:14 -0500
From: Chris McDermott <mcdermott at draper.com>
Subject: Victorian Ales

 Victorian Ales


What exactly is a Victorian Ale (besides a the obvious: an ale brewed during
the victorian period)?

I'm trying to find information describing this style and the procedures to used
to brew it, but I haven't had much luck.  Can anyone out there help.  A pointer
to a source of literature would be great.  Personal experience would be even
better.

Thanks,

Chris McDermott                                Send mail for PGP public key
mcdermott at draper.com                    * * *
617.258.2362                           *     ********************************
617.381.9768                            * * *                          ******
                                                                      ***  ***




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Date: 06 Oct 1993 14:43:14 PST
From: "JSDAWS1 at PROFSSR" <JSDAWS1 at PB1.PacBell.COM>
Subject: spiced beer

Hi all..   I'm contemplating a spiced X-mas ale for this weekend and would
like some opinions on the quantities and procedures for adding spices.
My recipe is as follows for 5 gal

10 lbs  Hugh-Baird pale malt
1  lb   Hugh-Baird 80L Crystal     mash at 158 for 60 min
1 oz    Kent Goldings   ( 60 min
1/2 oz  Centenials      ( 20 min
Wyeast 1098    ( expecting SG of 1060.. no clue where it might finish
spices ??    cinomon, nutmeg, vanilla

Does using whole vs powdered spices like cinomon and nutmeg make a difference
What about vanilla extract vs. beans.
When to add them ?   at the end of the boil or with priming sugar
Quantities of each spice.   I'm also asuming no finishing hops as that would
interfere with spice flavors.   Any and all opinioons appreciated.

|    Don't anthropomorphize computers...  They don't like it.         |
| ------------------------------------------------------------------- |
| JACK DAWSON  -  JSDAWS1  -  415 545-0299  -  CUSTOMER BILLING  (BG) |

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Date: Wed, 6 Oct 93 22:10:35 PDT
From: Mark Garetz <mgaretz at hoptech.com>
Subject: Rager Number Error

A while ago someone sent me email about the 7462 error in Rager's numbers
that all of us have taken for granted as being correct, but is in fact off
(this is the metric to avoir. conversion constant).  I have inadvertently
erased the note, so if whoever it was could send it again, I would be
grateful.

Mark

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Date: Wed, 6 Oct 93 22:07:21 PDT
From: Mark Garetz <mgaretz at hoptech.com>
Subject: Hops (what else?)

Domenick Venezia asked me to clarify my comments on 
"fermentation utilization" and says something to the
effect of "huh? this is an extraction technique".  (Forgive
me for not being able to pull the comments directly, but
I'm not on a system for the next two weeks that allows that.)

The extraction of hop alpha acids and their subsequent 
conversion into iso-alpha acids is only one part of the
equation.  There are many post boil events that affect the
final amount of iso-alphas in the finished beer.  Some are:
Yeast type and flocculation characteristics, fermentation time
and temperature, wort gravity, how much the wort pH drops as
it ferments, fermentation methods, lagering or not, filtration
or not, and more.  All of these can combine to make big
differences in the amount of iso-alpha acids left in the beer
by the time it reaches your lips, as opposed to simply the
amount extracted by the boil into the sweet wort.

I also noticed when reading my own post, that I said something
like "as the gravity of the fermenting wort rises..." and I
realized that some might have thought that I was implying that
wort gravity rises as it ferments.  Of course it drops, but
I should have said "the higher the starting gravity of the
wort is at the time you begin fermentation, the lower your
utilization will be."

Interesting to note that Kelly Jones reported that his bitterness
has gone away almost entirely, as I had reprted that other
brewers had noted.

Finally, I'll deal with Al's comments off-line.

Mark

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End of HOMEBREW Digest #1242, 10/07/93