FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Rob Gardner, Digest Coordinator


Contents:
  RE: STRAINING YOUR BREW (korz)
  mashout (chris campanelli)
  GABF ("Anderso_A")
  Re: Slow Counterflow (William Pemberton)
  Gas Regulators, from HBD #1245 (October 12, 1993) ("Christopher V. Sack")
  picobrew to Mike Schrempp (Bob_McIlvaine)
  startup brewing (George Tempel)
  Metric to Avoirdupois Conv. ("Palmer.John")
  GABF (james feldman)
  Beer Drinks (sean v. taylor)
  Carboy Source/John Pavao (David Atkins)
  Idophor question (Eric M. Mrozek)
  Brewpub review ("Mark S. Nelson")
  Boogymen and bogymen (ulrich)
  Re: Booby/Boogy/Bogyman! (dbell)
  GABF Denver (John Adams)
  Bogymen/Boogymen/Lactic Acid/Low-Alcohol Beer (Ken Miller)
  removing beer labels (Peter OConnor)
  Bacterial Cultures/COPS (Michael D. Galloway)
  Maple Brews (Bob_McIlvaine)
  Compare Contrast Kits vs Scratch (MATTHEW.BOHNE)
  Re:Carboy handles: A Better Solution? (Matthew Evans)
  Re: Kegging Systems (pblshr)
  Spain. ("David S. Reher")
  Spain. ("David S. Reher")
  smokin' grains (Montgomery_John)
  Rolling Rock Boch (Jim Frost)
  younger's no. 3 (Tony Babinec 312 329-3570)
  Reply to Chris Seiders' question (Kelly Jones)
  new at all grain - how 2 make tuns? (ERIC FERIS 703-308--8048)
  starter gravity (Jonathan G Knight)
  Beer color and competition (Lee=A.=Menegoni)
  Milling and Mashing (Jack Schmidling)
  Over boiling (Domenick Venezia)


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----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 12 Oct 93 13:05 CDT
From: korz at iepubj.att.com
Subject: RE: STRAINING YOUR BREW

Matthew writes:
>I have one of those handy brew kits you get for Christmas with the 6 gal.
>carboy. I realized after my 1st batch that I was getting a lot of haze in my
>beer so I thought I might strain it prior to bottling. What I came up with has
>been REALLY NICE! I used one of those reusable GOLD plated coffee filters
>(you can get them at any fancy coffee shop). I setup my 2nd carboy underneath
>the 1st and placed the filter inside of a funnel (perfect fit) and drained off
>the beer from the top, up to the last inch of trub. The filter is coarse
>enough that the beer gets through but fine enough that it catches all the crud
>that's still floating about. Since I've gone to this, I have truly had nothing
>but crystal clear beer!

Crystal clear maybe, but probably quite oxidized.  Does your beer have a
sherry-like aroma?  I think you may want to try to find the source of your
haze (perhaps you are just not waiting for the yeast to settle -- some strains
take quite a while -- maybe just try a different strain).  As the fermented-
out beer falls from the funnel into the 2nd carboy, you are going to introduce
a lot of oxygen (unless you purge the carboy with CO2, perhaps) and this will
give your resulting beer sherry-like or wet-cardboard aromas.
Al.

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Date: Tue, 12 Oct 93 14:47 CDT
From: akcs.chrisc at vpnet.chi.il.us (chris campanelli)
Subject: mashout

 
Ulick Stafford writes:
 
>
>  I would be very curious to see Chris Campanelli attempt to brew,
>  let's say, a wheat beer with 70%+ wheat malt without a mash out
>
 
A very good point.  The recipes that I have been referring to have
little or no wheat malt.  A clarification is needed in this robust
discussion.  We should limit the playing field to mashes which have
little or no wheat malt.  
 
For the record, I am a zealous believer in temperature steps for
mashes that contain a high-percentage of wheat for reasons
explained in Eric Warner's book.
 
Having narrowed the breadth of definition, I continue to maintain
that a mashout is unnecessary and await rebuttal.
 
 
chris campanelli

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Date: 12 Oct 93 15:34:00 EST
From: "Anderso_A" <Anderso_A at hq.navsea.navy.mil>
Subject: GABF

The following attachments were included with this message:
__________________________________________________________________
TYPE     : FILE
NAME     : AA
__________________________________________________________________


>From: gorman at aol.com
>Subject: GABF Denver

>FYI to all attending future Great American Beer Festivals.

>The members only tasting on Saturday afternoon at the  GABF was definitely
>the place to be. Uncrowded conditions allowed relaxed tasting and
>conversation with the brewers. 

     It was an extremely relaxed session (as compared to the 2 night sessions,
but it also had an annoying aspect as well.  The majority of the brewers
were out accepting their awards and only volunteers were manning the taps.
I received an "I don't know." to the majority of questions I asked during 
the AHA-only tasting.  At night, while it was more crowded, at least I could
speak with the brewers.
     FWIW, I'm not a member of AHA, so I had to "sneak" into the elitist
society function.  I had so much fun that I might even join next year.
Nahh! That would take all the fun out of it.
 
>By comparison, Saturday night was a zoo.
>Did anyone go on Friday night? What was it like then?

     Friday night was quite crowded, but no where near as crowed as Saturday.

To all the AHA duly-appointed royalty.  Why not have more food stands?
With all that beer and so little food available, I found it to be more expedient
to leave Currigan Hall and go to the local Burger King as opposed to waiting
in that one horrific food line.

Cheers,
Andy A 

     


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Date: Tue, 12 Oct 1993 16:26:44 -0400 (EDT)
From: William Pemberton <wfp5p at holmes.acc.virginia.edu>
Subject: Re: Slow Counterflow

Dave writes:

> fine job of cooling the wort, but it is SLOOOOOW.  It took about 50
> minutes for 5 gallons of wort to pass through this baby!  This is not much
> faster than my bathtub method (although I recognize that each little bit
> of wort cools down very fast indeed, contributing to a good cold break). 
> All the while the water is running and I am feeling guilty about wasting
> so much, and besides I hoped that building this thing would save me some time.
> 	One possibility that I am considering is that the thing is a lot
> longer than it has to be; could i cut it in half and make two chillers,
> each of which would run considerably faster?  Or is this slow speed pretty
> much the norm for these things?  If so I am seriously considering
> "downgrading" to an immersion chiller.

You don't mention the diameter of the copper tubing that you used.  I
made a counterflow chiller out of garden hose and 20 feet of 3/8 inch 
copper tubing (I think that was the size, it was the largest I could find 
that was still flexible enough to work with.)  This cooler works well and 
works fast.  The way my brewing is set up, it is about a 15 foot drop from 
the boiler to the fermenter.  This cooler takes in from boiling to tap water 
cold.  Total siphon time is about 5 minutes for 5 gallons.

> 	Another general question that I have is how do people direct the
> wort into their counterflow chillers.  In the past I always imagined that
> i would just hook it up in series with my hopback, but recent talk about
> the evils of hot-side aeration have spooked me on this idea.  The
> alternative is to siphon directly from the brew kettle, but this has its
> own problems (the old mouth-on-the-siphon-hose conundrum, and the problem
> of hops clogging the chiller (yes, I know about the chore boy solution but
> it seems to me that that is going to leave a lot of hard-earned wort in
> the kettle)).  So, what do people do about that?

I've not settled on a method for this.  I've used the chore boy method,
but I've had problems getting a decent flow.  I usually just try to
work around the hops.  Fortunately, I haven't had many problems with
clogging.

- -- 
Bill 


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Date: Tue, 12 Oct 1993 16:01:49 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Christopher V. Sack" <cvsack at mailbox.syr.edu>
Subject: Gas Regulators, from HBD #1245 (October 12, 1993)

On Tue, 12 Oct 1993, Andrew Baird wrote:

> 
> Recently I acquired (read: given by good friend) a two guage oxygen regulator
> that had previously been used for welding purposes.  One guage reads from 0
> to 90lbs, while the other reads from 0 to about 3000lbs as I recall
> (actually, the high pressure side has a dual scale and reads gas flow and/or
> pressure).  I realize that the part that fits onto the tank may have the
> incorrect thread, however this piece is removeable and I'm sure I can find a
> new fitting to match the tank.  Would this regulator be suitable for kegging
> purposes?  Can I expect any noticeable off flavors, or contamination problems
> due to the fact that this has been used for welding?
> 
You would have a regulator that is rated for "non-corrosive gases".  
These gases would include:  oxygen, hydrogen, methane, ethylene, ethane, 
carbon monoxide, nitrous oxide, and carbon dioxide.  The difference, as 
Andrew suspected, is in the connector between the regulator and the tank. 
The oxygen would use a CGA 540 connector and the carbon dioxide would use 
an CGA 320 connector.  I would also recommend swapping the 0 - 90 psi guage 
for a 0 - 40 psi guage, because for beer, one rarely needs more than 25 
psi for the carbonation.

You should be able to get the proper connector from a welding supply 
shop.  Most welding suppliers also sell regulators and the associated 
connectors.  If they don't have it, try a compressed gas vendor.

> I believe the beer mix is a nitrogen and C02 mix, and will reduce the
> problems with over carbonation of beer, if the keg is kept on tap for a
> prolonged period.  This sounds great, as I prefer my beers with little
> carbonation anyway, (I am a native Briton after all).  However, are there any
> disadvantages to using a Nitrogen/C02 mix.
> 
I don't know about this mixture.  I have not seen it in the compressed gas 
catalog of our local gas vendor (I work part time in the chemistry stock 
room), but any gas vendor will mix it up for you, for a price.  Stick to 
pure CO2 and use a pressure that provides 1 - 1.5 volumes of dissolved 
CO2.  (Most beers contain 2 - 2.5 volumes of CO2)  I have seen a 
dissolved gas vs. pressure/temp. table on the HBD,  but I don't know when 
it was.

Chris
+---------------------------------------------------------------+
|      ___            ___                   Christopher V. Sack |
|     /   )  |    /  /   )         |         Graduate Student   |
|    /       |   /  (___   __   __ |        Dept. of Chemistry  |
|   /        |  /       ) __ ) /  )|  /     State Univ. of N.Y. |
|  /         | /       / /  / /    | /      Syracuse, NY  13210 |
| (____/*    |/* (____/ (__\ (__/  |/ \    <cvsack at lor.syr.edu> |
+---------------------------------------------------------------+ 
 




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Date: Tue, 12 Oct 93 16:53:11 EDT
From: Bob_McIlvaine at keyfile.com
Subject:  picobrew to Mike Schrempp


I know HBD isn't for person to person
communication, but due to a glitch in my
internet software I can't send a response
to Mike Schrempp cause my software
won't let me use an internet address
as long as his. So...

Mike, if you read this, send me mail
with your phone# and I'll call you about
my pico brewery.

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Date: Tue, 12 Oct 1993 16:37:13 +0000 (U)
From: George Tempel <tempel at MONMOUTH-ETDL1.ARMY.MIL>
Subject: startup brewing

                      startup brewing
I'm about to take to plunge and start brewing. I have read
the NCJHB, the latest Zymurgy, and been reading this digest
for some time now.

I'd like to know the following things:

what equipment should I start out with?
plastic vs glass fermenters.
extract 'kits': good ones, bad ones
about how much $$$ for equipment?
how much $$$ for a 5 gallon batch?
can I brew 1/2 a recipe by cutting the ingredients?

Thanks...looking forward to your kind replies.

george



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Date: 12 Oct 1993 14:54:27 U
From: "Palmer.John" <palmer#d#john at ssdgwy.mdc.com>
Subject: Metric to Avoirdupois Conv.

Talk about deja vu. I had just sent the revised Rager Constant to Mark Garetz
yesterday. For everyone's benefit, I will include the derivation for it here.
What Regent said about the accuracy not being terribly significant to the
results is true, but I'm perspicacious. (yeah, that's it)

        28.3495 grams/oz              gram gal
1000 x ----------------- = 7489.1689 ---------   
        3.7854 liter/gal              liter oz    

The numbers are correct to four significant digits. Round all you want.
The factor of 1000 is from the fact that SI units are based on Kilograms.

John Palmer 

PS. I have received favorable response regarding the DOE posting, so I will 
post specifics for the next two experiments in the near future.

- --Since toast always lands butter-side down, and a cat always lands on its
feet, what would happen if you strapped toast to the cat's back and dropped it?

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Date: Tue, 12 Oct 1993 17:32:58 -0600
From: feldman at hal9k.csc.cxo.dec.com (james feldman)
Subject: GABF

A few thoughts on the GABF

I went there Saturday evening.  HUGE line to get in, but it moved reasonably
fast.  The size of the hall was nice in that I wasn't jostled as often. 
Interesting toys, like the hi-tech, computer controlled home brew
workstation ;'{)}, and the party pigs (a 2 1/4 gallon fermenter/server). 
The popcorn was TERRIABLE and had this mutant yellow color.  I ended up buying
the soft pretzils to clear the different beer tastes.  A couple more wash
stations would of been nice too.

Given the larger area, greater number of people and displayers, I would of
appreciated more time to browse the beers.  I guess that's a good reason to join
AHA, so I could of got in that afternoon.  I was on a "rare" bear style hunt
(smoked, alt, oatmeal stouts, fruits).  Liked most of what I had, but
some people seem to think that stout=burnt.  The Cherry Rail was my favorite
fruit beer.  Blue Tail Ale from a Ca. micro was one of my favorites, but it's
not bottled (waaaa!)  Sierra Nevada's Summerfest was a good one too. 

I've rambled enough
jim feldman

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Date: Tue, 12 Oct 93 19:34:03 EDT
From: sean v. taylor <sean at chemres.tn.cornell.edu>
Subject: Beer Drinks


Greetings,

	I was roaming around an old bookstore the other day and I 
came across a book on cooking with beer (can't remember the title,
and didn't buy the book).  In the back, there was a section on beer
drinks.  I also don't remember many specific recipes, but most them
looked like they treated beer as a regular liquor.
	Anyways, I wondered if other people had heard about making
drinks with beer?  Now, I've heard of adding some woodruff or
raspberry liqueur to a Berliner Weiss, a lemon to hefeweizen, and even 
mixing fermented apple cider to ale, but I've never heard of beer
being used as merely an additive in some drink concoction.  Has 
anybody else?
	Quite frankly, I thought beer was a finished beverage, whereas
hard liquor needed "diluted" by mixing with something else.
	On a similar note, Is something considered part of the beer
if it is added post fermentation?  Or is it more or less a "beer
drink"?

				Just wondering,
					Sean Taylor


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Date: Tue, 12 Oct 93 18:49 CDT
From: David Atkins <ATKINS at macc.wisc.edu>
Subject: Carboy Source/John Pavao

Hello Readers,
 
Upon recieving 1) many queries for a 7 gal carboy supplier and 2) getting my PC
finally reconnected to the Internet, here's the address for a brew supply
supplier.
	James Page Brewery & Beermaking Supplies
	1300 Quincy ST. NE
	Minneapolis MN, 55413-1541
	1-800-347-4042
 
You can use this 1-800 # to place orders or request a catalog.  They ship UPS so
I assume Cal. money is as good as WI money.
 
I'm but a lowly graduate student and profit not from this, much less any other,
professional relationship (disclaimer).  Speaking of disclaimers, how come we
list disclaimers when we post supplier info and not when we expouse the virtues
of a commercially micro-brewed beer?
 
Page sold a 7 gal. in lieu of 6.5 which had sold out.  As posted
in an earlier HBList, the opennings of the 7 gal are too narrow to use a carboy
cap in starting a siphon.
 
In reply to John Pavao's request...
	The 7 gal and perhaps (help me out here people) 6.5 gal carboys have
enough head space to use as a primary fermenter w/o a blowtube.  I use an
airlock.  The above supplier also carries long racking canes which will fit 7
gal carboys.
 
Sorry to take up the extra bandwidth...couldn't get my message directly to John.
 
 
David Atkins
UW-Madison
atkins at macc.wisc.edu

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Date: Tue, 12 Oct 93 20:29:28 -0400
From: Eric M. Mrozek <mrozek at horowitz.eecs.umich.edu>
Subject: Idophor question

I just recieved this message from a friend of mine in Los Angeles:

> I just finished a batch of spiced ale. Actually it started as a Belgian Brown 

> ale, but I used Idophor(sp?) to clean with and found that I can not tolerate 

> Idophor. This stuff is the stuff that gave the flavor to the keg beers at the 

> Maltose Falcons meetings that you and I could not stand. So I added lots of 

> spices and dry hopped to save the batch (it seems to have worked except that 

> the dry hops increased the profile of the allspice and it is taking a while 

> to mellow out.

Since I'm in Michigan now, I couldn't taste the original beer, but I remember 

very well the offtaste that he's referring to.  I have always disliked the idea 

of using Cornelius kegs because every kegged beer I tasted seemed to have a 

similar background unpleasentness (which I assumed was due to metal leaching or 

"unnatural" CO2 impregnation).

Could someone comment on the use of Idophor (flavor characteristics, threshhold 

of dection, poison rating, personal experiences, etc.)?  I know he rinses 

thouroughly, so it's not sloppy technique.  In the past we have always  
sanitized 

with bleach with resonable results.

Eric

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Date: Tue, 12 Oct 1993 17:15:12 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Mark S. Nelson" <mnelson at eis.calstate.edu>
Subject: Brewpub review

The following reviews represent my opinions only.  You can judge for
yourself what they are worth.

The rise in popularity of microbrewing and specifically brewpubs is
beginning to develope and ugly side, and I have recently seen this side in
the form of the Belmont Brewing Company of Belmont Shores, California.

I guess it should come as no suprise that as brewpubs are becoming more
and more trendy, there will be some designed especially to appeal to the
yuppy set.  This is not to say that there is anything at wrong with the
growing popularity of brewpubs.  Being a very frequent patron of any
brewpub within reach, I find the growing numbers to be very reasuring. 
However, my experience with Belmont Brewing Company indicates that pubs
that cater specifically to trend followers can lack a certain amount of
quality.

While the pub is in an outstanding location and the interior seems
well-designed, with plenty of seating (actually, quite a lot of seating)
and the staff (well some of the staff) is friendly and attentive, the food
lacks the care and quality one expects in a brewpub.  This is especially
irritating when you consider the high prices.

But on to the most important part, the beer.  The best way to sum up my
impression is this:  If you enjoy the over-powering taste and smell of
yeast, combined with an almost total lack of any hoppy taste, aroma or
bitterness, this is the beer for you.  The following beers were sampled:

Beer Name:		Official Description:
Marathon		"Light bodied ale. Low bitterness. Hint of Aroma"
Strawberry Blond	"Just a hint of fruit. Light in body. Low
			bitterness.
Long Beach Crude	"For beer lovers who enjoy full flavor.  A hint
			of bitterness and chocolate"

The description of the Marathon Ale is pretty accurate, except that it is
wildely understated.  The strawberry flavor in the Strawberry Blond was
about as subtle as a strawberrypie in the face.  Not unpleasant, but very
overpowering.  Mixed with the heavy taste of yeast makes for a bad
combination.

The L.B. Crude was the best of those sampled.  Really a light stout.  Good
flavor with a lighter body.  Very tasty chilled.  Could be a very good
warm weather stout if it wasn't for the ever-present yeast taste and
smell.  Unfortunately, the taste and smell get worse as you continue to drink.

I can't really describe the brewing setup as I didn't have opportunity to
check it out, but from across the resturant it looked nice.

Another review of yet another L.A. area brewpub will follow shortly.

- --------------------------------------------------------------------------
I used to be disgusted, now I try to be amused.

Mark S. Nelson      nelsonm at axe.humboldt.edu      mnelson at eis.calstate.edu



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Date: Tue, 12 Oct 1993 18:20:52 -0800
From: ulrich at sfu.ca
Subject: Boogymen and bogymen

korz and arf have been debating the spelling and pronunciation of
bo(o)gyman. The American Heritage Dictionary has an entry for "boogieman"
(pronounced either with the vowel of "book" or with the vowel of "boot"),
under which they say "Also boogyman, boogeyman, bogyman, bogeyman" (the
last two pronounced with the vowel of "boat"). All of these refer to a
hobgoblin, as does the word "bogy" (also bogey, bogie). (The spelling they
prefer for the golf and military terms is "bogey".)

In addition to all the above forms, I have heard "boogerman" (with the
vowel of "book" again). Note also that "booger" and "boogie" are both
attested as count nouns corresponding to the mass noun "snot".

Other related words are "bogle", "bugaboo", and "bugbear". All of these
words were borrowed from some Celtic language, either Scottish, Welsh, or
Cornish.

To sum up, there's a lot of dialect variation here and there's no one
"correct" form.

Now excuse me, I need a homebrew.

Charles Ulrich


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Date: Tue, 12 Oct 93 18:48:44 PDT
From: dbell at cup.portal.com
Subject: Re: Booby/Boogy/Bogyman!

Jack Schmidling posted:
 
>>From: korz at iepubj.att.com
 
>>I think you mean boogyman, but in any event.....
 
>Funny you should mention that because I researched the word which I am using 
>in the title of an article I am writing.  "Boogy" is a musical term and 
>refers to a type of jazz and a "boogyman" would be someone who plays or 
>dances to it although no such word is described in my dictionary.
 
>"Bogy" is a type of gremlin, hobgoblin or other bad actor who keeps throwing 
>wrenches into gear boxes.  It is also the term adopted by fighter pilots to 
>identify an enemy plane.   It is pronounced with a long "o" but I find no 
>reference to a "bogyman" in my dictionary either.  It seems to be redundant  
>corruption and although I try to change people's brewing habits, I don't have 
>time to change the American language.
 
>Unless someone comes up with something convincing, I will stick with bogyman.
 
Well, Jack, I hope this is convincing - to others! 
Retrieved from the Webster server at   chem.ucsd.edu:

boogyman
No definition for 'boogyman'.  Maybe you mean:
  1. bogyman                2. boogeyman             

Word: boogeyman
boo-gey-man \'bu.g-eE-,man, 'b:u-geE-\
 also boog-er-man \'bu-g-er- n
[boogey, alter. of booger + man]
(ca. 1850)
:BOGEYMAN 

Word: boogerman
boo-gey-man \'bu.g-eE-,man, 'b:u-geE-\
 also boog-er-man \'bu-g-er- n
[boogey, alter. of booger + man]
(ca. 1850)
:BOGEYMAN 

Word: bogyman
bo-gey-man
 also bo-gy-man \'bu-g-eE-,man, 'boE-geE-, 'b:u-geE-, 'bu-g-er- n
(ca. 1890)
1: a monstrous imaginary figure used in threatening children
2: a terrifying or dreaded person or thing: BUGBEAR 

Looks clear to me...  And all these years I was spelling it -oo-

Dave
dbell at cup.portal.com

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Date: Tue, 12 Oct 93 20:37:02 -0600
From: John Adams <j_adams at hpfcjca.sde.hp.com>
Subject: GABF Denver

I attended the GABF on Friday evening, the members-only tasting on Saturday,
and an "Evening with Michael Jackson" at the Wynkoop Brewing Co. on Sunday.

Friday Night:
   What a zoo, but's that is what I expected.  Actually I believe it to be
   a little better than last year simply because Currigan Hall is larger.

   Personal Favorites:
      Santa Rosa Brewing Companies Cascades IPA.
         Excellent hop nose and taste.  The perfect amount of bittering hops.
         The best IPA I tried at the fest.

      Dixie Brewing Companies White Moose.
         A white chocolate beer with an incredible chocolate aroma and light
         chocolate taste that's not overpowering.

      Alaskan Brewing Companies Smoked Porter.
         Has always been one of my favorites.  Although last years batch was
         better this is still the best smoked beer at the fest.

      Vermont Pub and Breweries Smoked Porter.
         A very close second to Alaskan's.

      Spring Street Brewing Companies WIT.
         A Belgium white with orange and coriander, very interesting.


Saturday Afternoon:
   I went in prepared with a list of various styles I wished to try.  I was 
   interesting in the many pumpkin and certain fruit beers, IPA's and Imperial
   Stouts.
   
   Personal Favorites:
      Adler Brau's Great Pumpkin Spice.
         This is by far the best pumpkin beer I've ever tried.  It had a very
         nice pumpkin taste with the perfect spices.  The only thing it lacked
         was the whipped cream.

      Hubcap Breweries Killer Bee Honey Ale.
         More of a light mead than an ale.  Not as overpowering as most meads
         but a very light, honey taste.

      Marin Brewing Companies Blueberry Ale.
         A very nice blueberry nose and taste.  I was enjoying this one when 
         it took the gold and everyone raised their glasses in salute!

      Pacific Coast Breweries Imperial Stout
         A slightly sweet but full bodied Imperial Stout.

      Vermont Pub and Breweries Avid Tartan Wee Heavy.
         A nice sweet and strong Scottish Ale.

Sunday Evening:
   Michael Jackson presented a tasting of "For The Love Of Good Beer: Denver
   Against The World."  Michael gave an one hour biography and history of
   beer followed by a tasting of 4 "World" beers and 4 "Denver" beers:
      Pilsener Urquell     (Czech Republic)
      Bass Ale             (England)
      Paulaner Oktoberfest (Germany)
      Guinness Stout       (Ireland)
      Home Run Ale         (Champion Brewing Company)
      Altman Amber Ale     (Rockbottom Brewery)
      India Pale Ale       (Breckenridge Brewery)
      Churchyard Ale       (Wynkoop Brewing Company)


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Date:         Tue, 12 Oct 93 20:25:17 PDT
From: Ken Miller <KCMILLER%SJSUVM1.BITNET at cmsa.Berkeley.EDU>
Subject:      Bogymen/Boogymen/Lactic Acid/Low-Alcohol Beer

Many and multifarious are the ways of the English language. Webster's
Ninth New Collegiate lists all of the following: bogeyman (preferred),
bogyman, boogyman, and buggerman (all with the same meaning); also
bogey, bogy, and bogie (without the -man suffix). So everyone was
right (until they started dissing each other) and we can move on to
another topic...unless maybe someone wants to pronounce it with an
umlaut? :^)

Phil Brushaber solicits non-basic information:

>        A brewing friend suggested using Lactic Acid. Got a bottle
>of Kent brand 88% Lactic Acid. I could use a suggestion from you
>Brewing Chemist types....

I'm not a Brewing Chemist...but I play one on TV (not!)

>        Any guess on how much of this 88% Lactic Acid I might use
>to adjust the PH in 5 gallons? You know something like: "1 tsp of
>88% Lactic acid should lower 5 gallons of liquid by .4 PH degrees".
>I could use trial and error but I've got a hunch that someone
>out there may have the answer or be familiar with this stuff.

Sorry, it isn't that simple. pH is a logarithmic scale, and the
degree of lowering will depend on both the volume and pH of both
the liquid and the acid. If you know the exact pH of your water, it
is possible to calculate the amount of lactic acid needed to lower
5 gallons of it to a specified pH. (When I get my hands on a
Merck Index, I'll post the equation.)

In practice, it's probably easier to use trial and error, since
tap water pH can vary from brewing to brewing (mine varies from
7.2-7.9, according to the water report) and the amount of lactic
acid needed is usually quite small (on the order of < 2 tablespoons).
Dave Miller (in TCHOHB) recommends diluting the lactic acid first,
using a ratio of 3 cups water to 2 tsp lactic acid; this is not
strictly necessary but makes over-acidifying by accident less likely.
I usually wind up using about 2 cups of diluted acid (i.e. about
1+ tsp of 88% concentrated acid) to lower about six gallons of water
to a pH of 5.7 (your mileage will vary).

Bill Kitch speculates:

>Does anyone have a procedure for producing low or no alcohol
>carbonated malt beverages?
>
>My intial thought is to:
> 1) brew in the normal fashion
> 2) heat to evaporate the alcohol
> 3) cool
> 4) add priming sugar and fresh yeast
> 5) bottle
>
>Is this reasonable?  Has anyone tried this?  Did it work?

Gee, I hate to be so negative today, but I don't think you'ld
be very happy with the brew so produced. The problem is with
step 2. The heat that drives off the alcohol will also drive off
other volatile flavor components, leaving your brew poorer for
the experience. Also--and this is pure speculation on my part--
since heat increases the speed of most chemical reactions, certain
reactions (e.g. oxidation reactions) which don't occur at
fermentation/storage temperature might occur rather quickly
at alcohol evaporation temperature. Whatever this does to your
beer, it's not likely to have a positive effect....

As I recall, one of the methods commerical breweries use to
produce no-alcohol beer is a variation on this technique in
which the evaporation is done in a partial vacuum, which allows
the evaporation to occur at lower temperatures. Perhaps one
of the numerous engineer-types on this forum can send you plans
for a vacuum distillation device....

BTW, if you do try this method, be sure not to condense or in any
other way keep the evaporated alcohol...producing distilled alcohol
without the proper paperwork is literally a Federal offense. :^(

Ken Miller (a.k.a. the Library Gnome)
who thinks that "low alcohol" beer is anything with an S.G. < 1.070
kcmiller at sjsuvm1.sjsu.edu

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Date: Wed, 13 Oct 93 08:07:17 EDT
From: poconnor at lager.tn.cornell.edu (Peter OConnor)
Subject: removing beer labels


A couple of days ago, it was suggested here that beer labels come off
easily after a half hour soak in ammonia and hot water.  I tried it 
last night and it works great.  Just be sure to let the bottles soak long
enough.

 -pete

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Date: Wed, 13 Oct 1993 08:07:47 -0400
From: Michael D. Galloway <mgx at ornl.gov>
Subject: Bacterial Cultures/COPS

hey ...

I've not seen a lot of traffic on the digest regarding the culturing of 
and pitching volumes of Brettanomyces cultures.  I've got cultures
of both B. Labicus and B. Bruxellancis (forgive the spelling, I'm a 
physicist, not a microbiologist) on slants.  What should I do to prepare
them to pitch.  I'm comfortable culturing up yeasts from slants to
pitching volumes, if that helps.  Also, what are the appropriate 
methods of sanitation to use after using the bacterial cultures.

******************************************************

>
>Well--it happened again. in the Syracuse area, WSYT, the local Fox 
>affiliate showed the infamous COPS episode with the guy with Homebrewing 
>equipment. Anyone got those addresses available--and did it run in other 
>areas? This show was on at 10 PM monday nite.
>

Yeah, it aired in Knoxville TN on fox the other night too, at 6:30 pm.  Pure
trash.

Thanks, michael



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Date: Wed, 13 Oct 93 08:33:08 EDT
From: Bob_McIlvaine at keyfile.com
Subject: Maple Brews


Read the post about maple beers.
I have a friend who makes maple syrup
up in Maine. Recently, he attended a
maple festival and returned with a
cookbook of maple recipes from the
1800's. In the book are two recipes
for maple brews. The recipes include
such ingredients as checkerberries,
pah-sis-o-wah (both members
of the wintergreen family which are
native to New England) and, believe
it or not, hemlock tips (I'm going to
substitute spruce, I think it'll be safer).
Since I missed the checkerberry season
this year,  I'll try it next year.

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Date: 13 Oct 93 09:12:09-0400
From: MATTHEW.BOHNE at sprint.sprint.com
Subject: Compare Contrast Kits vs Scratch

I have made beer both by kit, and by scratch, and I have had mixed results. I
have used the "Malt Extracts" in the orange cans and I have used the Coopers
Ale Malt Extracts ($15.00 a can, Expensive!). I have made ok beer with the
Orange cans and made a pretty acceptable Oz lager with the other. I tried a
batch from scratch (Imperial stout) and It came out bitter, not to mention I
now have beer all up inside my stove after it over boiled... I followed the
directions provided in my Beer Bible but, I guess things went south somewhere.
What I really would like to do is brew a beer that is simular to the great
beers of Austria (St Augustiner Brau - brewed by Trappist monks in Salzburg
not that crap you get in the bottle imported from Germany). I have also been
contemplating a Heife Wiezen. My problem is this, what would be better:

Brew using a kit? If so:
 which one is best(brewform,Orange, etc)? 
 Is it better to buy kits from mail order (cheaper,better quality) ?
 If so who, in your experience has been the best to deal with?
 Any recipes?


Brew from scratch?
 to boil or not to boil?
 Strain vs grain bag
 Note worthy recipes?
Brew kits are much more expensive, but for their ease are they worth it? 
Is their quality better than what most can create? 

I would really appreciate everyone's input on this, as I would like(as well as
 many others out there) a little wisdom from some of you who have been brewing
for a while. 

Carboy Dieum 

Thanks,
Matthew Bohne







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Date: Wed, 13 Oct 1993 09:22:22 EDT
From: Matthew Evans <matt at cadif.cornell.edu>
Subject: Re:Carboy handles: A Better Solution?

I haven't actually tried the carboy handles that were described, but I think
I lucked out and found a better way to move carboys.  The carboy that I 
conveniently "found" was an old glass spring water bottle.  But what made this 
carboy even better was that it had its own wooden crate that provides a great 
way to lift the carboy when full.  The way the thing is built it also protects 
it from being banged around when moving (this carboy has moved over 1000 miles 
without any special padding).  

You still wind up lifting the carboy from the sides, but you still are a lot 
better off than hugging your beer (although I guess there is something to be 
said for that too!) to move a full carboy.  If you would like more info, or 
dimensions send me a message.  Good luck.

- --Matt Evans

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Date: Wed, 13 Oct 93 09:25:45 EDT
From: pblshr at aol.com
Subject: Re: Kegging Systems

In the October 12 issue, someone was kind enough to publish the phone numbers
of two keg sources. I copied them to my clipboard... forgetting I already had
some other junk on it. 

Now I can't retrieve the issue again. If you copied the numbers... or if you
posted the numbers, please send them to me, Tom Finan. My address is
PBLSHR at aol.comp

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Date: Tue, 12 Oct 1993 19:48:19 UTC+0100
From: "David S. Reher" <soso203 at sis.ucm.es>
Subject: Spain.

Is there anyone on the list interested in homebrewing that lives in Spain?
I am looking for a homebrewing accesory outlet in Spain. Does anybody
know of one? Thanks.

Antonio S. Reher
soso203 at sis.ucm.es

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Date: Sat,  9 Oct 1993 16:49:53 UTC+0100
From: "David S. Reher" <soso203 at sis.ucm.es>
Subject: Spain.

Is there anyone on the list interested in homebrewing that lives in Spain?
I am looking for a homebrewing accesory outlet in Spain. Does anybody
know of one? Thanks.

Antonio S. Reher
soso203 at sis.ucm.es

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Date: Wed, 13 Oct 93 08:51:00 CST
From: Montgomery_John at lanmail.ncsc.navy.mil
Subject: smokin' grains


  Reading the past couple of articles regarding smoked porters has 
  peaked my interest. I'm considering trying a batch of this stuff.

  The one brewer mentioned he had a real pit smoker (smoke area off to 
  the side of the pit fire). I, on the other hand, have one of the tower 
  type smokers. Has anyone smoked grains in one of these things? What 
  are any special tricks to getting the most out of the smoking?
  I'm wondering if the temp gets too hot in these that one ends up 
  burning the grains before achieving smoke flavor in the grain.

  You may email me directly and I'll be glad to post a summary of 
  responses (  if I get any :)  ). Thanks...


jm
montgomery_john at lanmail.ncsc.navy.mil



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Date: Wed, 13 Oct 93 10:05:39 -0400
From: Jim Frost <jimf at centerline.com>
Subject: Rolling Rock Boch

Anyone else try Rolling Rock Boch yet?  If not, do so -- nice color,
taste and aftertaste.

jim frost
jimf at centerline.com

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Date: Wed, 13 Oct 1993 09:08:33 -0500 (CDT)
From: tony at spss.com (Tony Babinec 312 329-3570)
Subject: younger's no. 3

In Scotland, McEwan's has an ale known as 80 Shilling or IPA, with
a gravity of 1042.  In England -- spotted in London in The Sun -- you'll
find Younger No. 3, a cask-conditioned ale of SG 1043.  Think of this
as an example of AHA Scottish Export.  In the US, you'll find the 
bottled counterparts to these two beers.  The IPA goes by the same
name, and I don't remember the name of the other beer, but it might
be McEwan's Export.  In some parts of the U.S. you might find
McEwan's Scotch Ale, but at SG 1088, this is a much stronger beer.
If anyone has access to the Scotch Ale, send me one :-).

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Date: Wed, 13 Oct 93 08:43:16 -0600
From: Kelly Jones <k-jones at ee.utah.edu>
Subject: Reply to Chris Seiders' question

In HBD#1246, Chris Seiders <SEIDERS at HANDI.MED.UTAH.EDU>
writes:
>Subject: Stuck Fermentation? a Beginner's Question

>ICAgICBTaW5jZSB0aGlzIGlzIG15IGZpcnN0IHBvc3QgdG8gdGhpcyBsaXN0LCBw
>bGVhc2UgYmVhciB3aXRoIG1lLiAgSSBhbSBuZXcNCmF0IGJyZXdpbmcsIGFuZCBo
>YXZlIHJlY2VudGx5IHN0YXJ0ZWQgbXkgc2Vjb25kIGJhdGNoIG9mIGJyZXcuICBJ

Yes, I've had this problem myself.

>IGhhdmUNCmVuY291bnRlcmVkIHNvbWUgdGhpbmdzIHdoaWNoIEkgaGF2ZW4ndCBl
>bmNvdW50ZXJlZCBiZWZvcmUgKG5vdCBzdXJwcmlzaW5nIG9uDQpvbmx5IHRoZSBz
>ZWNvbmQgYmF0Y2gpIGFuZCBhbSBsb29raW5nIGZvciBzb21lIHdvcmRzIG9mIGFk
>dmljZS9lbmNvdXJhZ2VtZW50Lg0KSSBzdGFydGVkIGFuIGFsbC1leHRyYWN0IEJy

Fortunately, the solution to this is very easy: just Relax, Don't
Worry, and Have a Homebrew!!

>b3duIE51dCBBbGUgb24gU2F0LiBBZnRlciBib2lsaW5nIHRoZSBleHRyYWN0IGZv
>cg0KMSBociBJIGFkZGVkIGl0IHRvIG15IDUgZ2FsbG9uIGdsYXNzIGNhcmJveSBh

This is pure Hogwash! Don't believe everything Jack tells you!!

>bmQgYnJvdWdodCBpdCB1cCB0byA1IGdhbGxvbnMNCndpdGggd2F0ZXIuICBJIHRo
>ZW4gY29vbGVkIHRoZSBjYXJib3kgaW4gYSB3YXRlci9pY2UgYmF0aCB1bnRpbCBp

Ouch!!  Trying using more Vaseline next time!

>dCBjb29sZWQgdG8NCjc2+EYgYXQgd2hpY2ggcG9pbnQgSSBoeWRyYXRlZCB0aGUg

You're welcome!

Kelly

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Date: Wed, 13 Oct 1993 09:55:00 -0400 (EDT)
From: ERIC FERIS 703-308--8048 <FERIS.ERIC at epamail.epa.gov>
Subject: new at all grain - how 2 make tuns?


          In the last week or so I've been reading this, it's like I've 
          stumbled on a treasure trove of brewing knowledge here.  You guys 
          are some serious brewers -- just the type of forum I need to 
          learn the finer points of making excellent brew.  
          
          I've been brewing with concentrated worts from extracts using 
          some grain supplements for a few months and I'm ready to make the 
          leap to all-grain brewing.  I'd rather make my own equipment 
          whenever possible as much of the ready-made stuff is much more 
          pricey than the sum of its parts.  I am wondering about the best 
          way to go about making a mash tun and a lauter tun.  I have only 
          seen them vaguely described, and never seen a detailed diagram of 
          how they are built.  I would prefer to avoid the food bucket 
          route as it seems they are a bit on the small side.  I understand 
          you can make a mash tun out of a big picnic cooler.  Is that 
          right?  If so, how does the heating system work without burning 
          the cooler?  Also, how do you keep the heating element from 
          burning the grain?
          
          Thanks for your feedback - it sure is nice to be able to ask real 
          experts about this!
          
          Regards,
          Eric



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Date: Wed, 13 Oct 1993 09:43:43 -0500 (cdt)
From: Jonathan G Knight <KNIGHTJ at AC.GRIN.EDU>
Subject: starter gravity


Many thanks to the Coyote for addressing my yeast population concerns in 
Wednesday's HBD.

Rather than doing this privately, I shall expose my shameful ignorance to all,
 thinking that having this question answered on-line may be helpful to those 
who are either newbies or are like me (want to make better beer but hate 
math).

SO: how much extract do I add to how much water to get SG 1020, 1030, etc?  
Inquiring minds want to know.

Jonathan Knight
Grinnell, Iowa

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Date: Wed, 13 Oct 93 11:04:04 EDT
From: Lee=A.=Menegoni at nectech.com
Subject: Beer color and competition

RE: A recent HBD post about beer color and competition.  
Color is a minor factor in the total score.  It accounts for a maximum
of 2 of 50 points.   

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Date: Wed, 13 Oct 93 10:14 CDT
From: arf at mcs.com (Jack Schmidling)
Subject: Milling and Mashing

 
 >From: polstra!larryba at uunet.UU.NET
 >Subject: Re: Wort Processors Mill Evaluation
 
 >I agree that grit size and uniformity is more important than husk damage.
 this is most true about modern 2-row grains.  I have personally used
 two lauter designs: a perforated false bottom and a slotted copper manifold.
 In both cases too fine a grind is a disaster regardless of the quality of
 the husks.
 
 My recently posted tests results with flour made from a Corona indicate that 
 a third lauter design is worth looking into.
 
 >  The problems are two fold.  First the flour tends to ball up and make a 
 dough that is dry inside.  This occurs during mash in and is a royal pain to 
 get rid off.
 
 That is most assuridly so and the only problem I had with the Corona flour.  
 I can imagine what a real pain it would have been in a full sized batch.
 
 >Second problem is the stuck sparge.  I had never seen one until
 I used a roller mill that was set way too close (.025") and the sparge locked
 up after a couple quarts.  No dribble, nothing.  Just like the valve had been
 closed.
 
 Not so with the easymasher.  The flow with the flour was no different than 
 with a "normal" crush.
 
 >The malt mill I have produces a course crush (e.g. looks like cornmeal) with
 pretty much intact husks.  I have lautered a 15.5 lb mash and recovered 11.5
 pretty much intact husks.  I have lautered a 15.5 lb mash and recovered 11.5
 gallons of 1.046 wort in 20 minutes.  That is .034pt/lb/gal for you guys
 interested in the efficiency game.  Since it was a pils, using only pils
 malt, the number wasn't too unexpected.
 
 Just for the record, Larry's mill is a fixed spacing model and makes a good 
 case for my contention that adjustability of spacing, on a well designed 
 roller mill, is of no real value to the home brewer.  It is offered as an 
 option because people think they need it and the customer is always right.
 
 js
 

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Date: Wed, 13 Oct 1993 07:52:13 -0700 (PDT)
From: Domenick Venezia <venezia at zgi.com>
Subject: Over boiling

Rob Toutkoushian asks in #1246 if his low S.G.s could be caused by "over
boiling" his extract based wort.  He further explains that he gets a lot
of "gunk" on the bottom of the brew kettle.

Given that you are indeed following the recipe, and I assume you are doing
a high gravity boil, then perhaps you are burning the wort.  As you
vigorously stir you simply allow fresh wort in contact with the too hot
kettle bottom and burn more of the fermentables to the bottom of the pot.
I don't know your boiling set up but if it's an electric stove you may be
forced to use the highest setting (cherry red) just to get a boil.  Since 
you are not boiling to reduce your wort volume perhaps you could cover or
partially cover the kettle (WATCH FOR BOIL OVER) and this might allow you to
turn down the heat.  Also thin bottom pots tend to get hot spots, so
switching to a thicker bottomed kettle may help, though this may not be
financially possible.

Also 44 12 oz bottles, with head space accounted for, is exactly 4 gallons,
and in my experience an uncovered good rolling boil evaporates just about
1 gal/hour.  

Good luck, keep us informed.

Domenick Venezia
ZymoGenetics, Inc.
venezia at zgi.com




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End of HOMEBREW Digest #1247, 10/14/93