FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Rob Gardner, Digest Coordinator


Contents:
  Mash & Lauter Tuns/ Yeast Starter Media (COYOTE)
  Re: Catching up on mail (LeRoy S. Strohl)
  Amalyse Enzyme (Steve Seaney)
  Wit and Brewing with Liquors  (???) (Stuart Mennitt)
  Budweiser wins an award? (Ken Michael Johnson)
  Re: Idophor summary (Eric M. Mrozek)
  5/2/.5 micron filters (Gary S. Kuyat)
  Alabama beer (Chuck Wettergreen)
  Pseudo-decoction experiment (korz)
  Fast Spargeand Godzilla (Jack Schmidling)
  help on yeast (David J Mendonca)
  5 Liter Kegs (RADAMSON)
  Yeast nutrients (Domenick Venezia)
  COPS: Distilling is dangerous?? (Kevin Yager)
  mashout necessary? (chris campanelli)
  Auto Reply from Watch_Mail for 15-OCT-1993 13:50 to 23-OCT-1993 00:00 (DEC PHIGS development DTN 381-2275  18-Oct-1993 0550 -0400)
  Re: Making drinks with Beeer? (James Kew)
  RE: Shandy and making drinks with beer. (andrewb6)
  Re: Beer Drinks (Diane Palme x2617)
  Beer hunting in Belgium: Introduction ("Phillip Seitz")
  Beer hunting in Belgium: Introduction ("Phillip Seitz")


Send articles for __publication_only__ to homebrew at hpfcmi.fc.hp.com
  (Articles are published in the order they are received.)
Send UNSUBSCRIBE and all other requests, ie, address change, etc.,
  to homebrew-request@ hpfcmi.fc.hp.com, BUT PLEASE NOTE that if
  you subscribed via the BITNET listserver (BEER-L at UA1VM.UA.EDU),
  then you MUST unsubscribe the same way! 
If your account is being deleted, please be courteous and unsubscribe first.
Archives are available via anonymous ftp from sierra.stanford.edu.
  (Those without ftp access may retrieve files via mail from
  listserv at sierra.stanford.edu. Send HELP as the body of a
  message to that address to receive listserver instructions.)
Please don't send me requests for back issues - you will be silently ignored.
For "Cat's Meow" information, send mail to lutzen at novell.physics.umr.edu



----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 15 Oct 1993 11:52:46 -0600 (MDT)
From: COYOTE <SLK6P at cc.usu.edu>
Subject: Mash & Lauter Tuns/ Yeast Starter Media

There seems to have been a number of questions recently regarding
mash tuns/lauter tuns.  I thought I'd chime in with a basic rundown
on the varieties- and describe my modification to the copper tubing
version.  There are commercial versions out there- but I'll deal with
the home-made varieties.

The most basic equipment needed for mashing is a LAUTER TUN.  A 
vessel used to filter  the grains out of the wort (sparging).  I 
generally start my grain in my boiling pot (my grinder sits on top 
and grinds into the pot. The bottom is flat so I can use my paddle 
to mix in the hot tap water and thoroughly mix the grains with the 
water. I then add hot water to bring the temp up to mash-conversion 
and transfer the slop into my lauter tun.  Some people will adjust 
their temps in the lauter tun.  I know I risk HSA- but haven't 
observed problems with my approach.  The temps are still WELL below 
boiling.  One guy was concerned about how to apply heat to the mash 
tun-  bring temps up with hot water. Unless you use a bru-heat type
mash/lauter tun you don't need a heat source IN the tun. I used to 
apply direct heat- but it's SO easy to overshoot, or apply uneven heat.

The concept is to establish a FILTER BED out of the grain husks. Big 
pieces at the bottom, small toward the top.  This rests on some sort 
of filter mechanism-allowing the sweet wort to flow out, leaving the
grain behind. Ideally the system will HOLD a fairly constant 
temperature for the duration of the conversion.

The common lauter tun approaches are:
    1.    Grain bag in a bucket with a spigot near the bottom of the
    bucket. Grain bag is held in place with elastic (bungee). Bag is 
    mesh material.I used one of these for several years. Worked fine.   
    Disadvantage: Size limitation, not insulated, unless you stick it 
    in a box. Bag would slip sometimes.

    2.    Zapap:  Bucket w/in a bucket.  Upper has MANY holes in bottom. 
    Drill zillions of 1/8 " holes.  Spigot in bottom bucket.  (3/8" MPT=
    male pipe thread, rubber gasket- into 1/2" OD hole  CP)
    Sorta tried one of these once, but not really.  Sould work fine. 
    Insulation  is again a problem.  You can fashion a styrofoam lined 
    "box" to contain it.

    3.    False bottom.  Bucket or metal pot.  Stainless steel plate 
    full of holes like the zapap- is placed an inch off the bottom of 
    a pot or bucket. For a pot this requires welding a spigot onto it. 
    I never wanted to do this to my pot. I'd probably manage to break 
    it off! (clutz)  With a metal pot this would have the advantage of 
    enabling direct heat application.

    4.    Copper tubing manifold.  Can be holes, or slits drilled or 
    cut into a	network of copper tubing- which collects the wort and 
    allows it to flow out into the boiling pot. Often set up in a 
    cooler,  either round, or 	rectangular will work (debate rages!),  
    allowing temp. maintenance. 

Ok now to attempt some ASCI diagrams- I know they've been done 
before...but

Top View:                           Side View:
                                    IN>>> ------------------
        |-------------------|           |	Sparge water sprinkles
        |-------------------|       Down|
T-up    |                   |---    Tube|
        |-------------------|           |  Manifold system
        |-------------------|           |--------------------|__Spigot
                                                            OUT>>>


I think we need a verbal description here too.  I have a 48qt 
rectangular cooler. I removed the drain valve. Drilled a hole at 
the opposite top. Collected suitable hardware for threaded 
connections inside and outside the drain- attached a standard 
garden hose faucet outside the cooler.  The manifold is made 
from 4 lengths of 3/8" tubing sawed through halfway (hack). 
Connected with T-pieces and small pieces as needed.  The middle 
end pieces are T's. Drain side goes out, the opposite attaches 
to the Down tube.  A T at the tops of the down tube exits the 
cooler through the hole drilled there, and also attaches to the 
Sparge Tube.  This tube extends across the top of the cooler, 
and has holes drilled on both sides. The advantages of this tube 
and T are that I can place a bucket w/spigot above the cooler 
containing hot sparge water, and let is trickle onto the mash bed. 
I can control the in-flow rate to match the out-flow rate. Constant 
bed height.  I can also remove the sparge tube, close that off and
underlet water into the bed-or if necessary blow air into the 
downtube allowing me to RESET the grain bed. The original idea was 
to allow me to run water through the manifold to clear it.  I also 
fashioned a metal screen to fit over the manifold- kinda like a 
false bottom  to make a flatter surface for the grain bed (can you 
say "overkill"?). It keeps big grain bits away from the tubing- 
aiding the grain bed establishment, and makes it easier to lift 
the grain out of the cooler into my healthy compost pile. I don't
know how clear this will be to everyone- but if you have questions 
drop me a line and I can elaborate- or snail mail you a hand drawing.  
As has been discussed- be sure to use LEAD-FREE solder for the tubing. 
I used a propane torch for heating the tubing, then sweated in the 
silver solder.

I fashioned mine such that the manifold is removable. A nice benefit 
for cleaning. I love the simplicity, and consistency I get.  I have 
more than adequate space for as much as a  30# grain mash.  The flow 
control is very nice. I don't cause any disturbance of the grain bed 
once set. and I don't have to stand over it once the flow rates are 
set.  I don't lose temp over a 1-2 hour mash. It is very beneficial 
to add hot water to the tun first before adding the grains- preheats, 
and allows the grain bed to set better. Boy...makes me wanna go use 
it NOW!

Costs: I got the cooler for $5 at a yard sale. Copper tubing was about 
the same.  I bought a straight piece, 10' I think. Fittings connectors:
maybe $10-$15 for  solder and all.  I could spend almost that much for 
a grain bag! I much prefer my newer system.
****************************************************************
Another Note:  Yeast Culturing:  Someday (after I write my thesis) I
plan to write a pamphlet on culturing for homebrewers (Al!). I have 
R. Leistad's, but find it lacking.  No offense to Rog, it's a useful 
booklet, but he's not a microbiologist.  That is clear.  And the 
organization is a bit strange to me. 

As for how much malt/sugar for specific specific gravity readings... 
I will do an empirical study and publish a table...BUT in the meantime
 ...Rog's recipe for a starter solution is 1 Tbsp malt (dry), 
1/16 tsp yeast nutrient into 1 cup H2O. This translates to 1/4 cup 
malt, 1/4 tsp YN per quart, or 1 cup malt, 1 tspYN/gallon.  He does 
not state what sp.gr. that makes. I haven't checked.  Paul Farnsworth 
suggests 8 tbsp dry malt or 10  tbsp syrup in 2 1/2 cups water. This
 is from the Zymurgy special issue on yeast. There are some good 
ideas in there, but they are rather scattered.  
FYI 1 quart ~= 1 liter. I'll publish conversion tables too!

Bandwidth- what bandwidth. I don't need no stinking bandwidth!
		
Brew On!		John (The Coyote) Wyllie  SLK6P at cc.usu.edu

Return to table of contents


Date: Fri, 15 Oct 93 13:54:33 EDT
From: LeRoy S. Strohl <lstrohl at s850.mwc.edu>
Subject: Re: Catching up on mail

Sean Taylor asked about beer drinks in a recent HBD. Two which I have
encountered are the Shandy and its cousin the Shandy Gaff: the Shandy is
a mix of beer and lemonade (my favorite version of this was the
Tiger-Tops that I had in HongKong in the early 1960's - Tiger is a
pretty good lager made if memory serves in Singapore, and Tops was a
lemon soda that was very popular with the British sailors I'd  met)
the Shandy Gaff is much the same except it is made with ginger ale. The
best ratio for me was just a splash (how do you like that for accuracy)
of either the lemonade or ginger ale. I guess if I were going to
recommend these it would be that they be considered a summertime drink.

JM Montgomery asked about smoking grains - JM I have smoked grains using
just a regular covered/kettle grill. Whatever grains you want to smoke
can be placed in a pouch of aluminum foil, puncture it all over with a
fork to make lots of little holes. Outside of the grill get two or three
charcoal briquets to the point that they are covered with gray ash,
place them on the coals rack and cover the briquets with a couple of
handfuls of previously moistened peat moss. I usually leave them in hte
grill for at least 30 minutes. For my own purposes I think it adds a
nice touch to a couple of my Scotch ale recipes. Hope this works.

Mark Nelson talked about the yuppification of the brewpub business. OK
it seems that you would be wise to think of the business part of it
first - the guy that is running this brewpub is in it for the money.
Yuppies have disposable assets and the guy is glad to take it to pay his
rent, grocery store, wait staff and grain bill. Second if his beer is
not good one of two things will start to happen - people like yourself
will tell him his beer leaves much to be desired and if he doesn't
change you'll stop going to the restaurant and maybe others will too,
and hey who knows, he may go out of business. However, there is a funny
alternate scenario. Lets say he doesn't change his recipes, but the
yuppies keep on coming, and they posture around with talk about hop
bouquets, malt texture, mouth feel and yeast flavors. You probaly don't
want to hang out with this kind of crowd, and you'll have the
satisfaction of knowing that a bunch of effete posers are drinking bad
beer. Keep on making your own, it's probably better anyway.
Roy 



Return to table of contents


Date: Fri, 15 Oct 1993 13:04:54 -0500 (CDT)
From: Steve Seaney <seaney at ie.engr.wisc.edu>
Subject: Amalyse Enzyme


I am a bit confused over the use of Amalyse Enzyme (I hope this is
spelled correctly) when brewing all grain beer.  My understanding is
that it contains Alpha Amalyse.

My understanding is that Alpha Amalyse is denatured around 130 degF.
If this is correct what good is the enzyme at mash temps above 140
degF?

I don't have my copy of Papazian or Miller at the moment.  Can someone
help out?

When should Alpha Amalyse be used?

Thanks,
Steve
- -- 
Steve Seaney: 608/265-3954: seaney at engr.wisc.edu

Return to table of contents


Date: 15 Oct 93 14:08 EDT
From: smennitt at oasys.dt.navy.mil (Stuart Mennitt)
Subject: Wit and Brewing with Liquors  (???)

    I've just started a batch of Wit based loosely on Miller's recipe.
I'm using 3.3 lbs M&F wheat syrup extract, 2 lbs M&F pale dry extract,
1.5 oz of 2.9% Hallertau hops, and 1 oz ground coriander seed.  The
yeast is Wyeast European Ale.
    I'd like to add a slight orange flavor, and I was considering adding
some triple sec liquor to the ferment.  I've got some Bols brand that
uses curacao and seville oranges for its flavor.
Should this work?
Any idea how much triple sec to add?
    I've also considered using a more "Belgian" yeast for this.  Any
suggestions here?  Would it help to culture a Chimay or Duvel and repitch
with some honey or corn sugar?  Any other "Wit" style extract recipes
out there?  Am I asking too many questions?      Thanks.
- --____________________________________________________
]      Stu Mennitt      smennitt at oasys.dt.navy.mil    [
]  NavSurfWarCen, CarderockDiv     Bethesda, Maryland [
]         was: David Taylor Research Center           [
]     was: David Taylor Naval Ship R&D Center         [
 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
- -------

Return to table of contents


Date: Fri, 15 Oct 1993 11:43:15 -0700
From: Ken Michael Johnson <kmj at leland.Stanford.EDU>
Subject: Budweiser wins an award?

I can't believe that Budweiser got an award at the GABF.  I think that they
should change the name of the American Premium Lager catagory to 
American Pisswater.  Just a thought.

kj

Return to table of contents


Date: Fri, 15 Oct 93 14:44:00 -0400
From: Eric M. Mrozek <mrozek at horowitz.eecs.umich.edu>
Subject: Re: Idophor summary

123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678 
901234567890

> Watch those line lengths...

Please accept my sincerest apologies.  The message appeared clean when I sent  
it.  The digest software rejects postings with lines longer than 80  
characters, so I didn't expect any problems. 


Here's a summary of responses that I have recieved:

> Iodophor has a sort of metallic-chlorine-like taste ...  It's less  
objectionable to me than chlorine itself, though. I think the key has to be  
to drain thoroughly after sanitizing with the stuff, and to use pretty low  
levels to start with. ... 12ppm is easily detectable.  We could do an  
experiment...

> The advantage [of idophor] over bleach is that chlorine in very dilute
concentration combined with polyphenols in beer will easily
generate chlorophenol compounds that have a taste perception
threshold in the few parts per billion magnitude.  If you're
finding a harsh medicinal character in the beer, that's
chlorophenolic.  This can be cause by rinsing with city
water with high amounts of chlorine, or can be present
from the start if you brew with water out of the tap....

[This shouldn't be the problem.  Our technique has avoided this in the past.]

> Iodophor is routinely used in restaurants as the final
sanitizing rinse for dishes & glassware, which may be used
immediately for food service.  FDA considers 10ppm iodine
safe for consumption, though iodophor solution also contains
phosphoric acid and isn't very tasty by itself.

> You might want to verify that your friend rinsed out the iodophor.  I
frequently see one of its benefits listed as "no rinse required."  They
certainly tout this in its use in the food industry (from what I have
seen in Superior Products' catalog and on the bottle I have).  George
Fix, in his book "Vienna," says that although no rinse is required he
still recommends rinsing with cheap commercial beer ("Way waste our
own.") - 12 oz. is good for rinsing a 5 gal container.  Dr. Fix
commented that amber and dark beers in particular are more apt to react
to residual sanitizer giving it a flavor that can easily be mistaken as
an infection.  I guess all this is to say that it is probably no
surprise that iodophor causes off-flavors and should indeed be rinsed...

[The original beer was a "Belgian" brown...  I would describe the flavor as  
smoothly medicinal rather than infected]

Return to table of contents


Date: Fri, 15 Oct 93 15:52:38 EDT"
From: Gary S. Kuyat <gsk at sagan.bellcore.com>
Subject: 5/2/.5 micron filters
Full-Name: Gary S. Kuyat

After playing around with a couple of filtering systems, and counter-pressure
filling bottles with force carbonated, filtered beer, I have these notes on
different filter elements.

5 micron:
 Takes out big chunks, like hop particles. No effect in flavor, no effect in
body, no effect in chill haze. Other than as a pre-filter 5 mic. seems pretty
useless.

2 micron:
 This seems to be the best all around. Removes yeast. Some very slight loss of
body. Clears and "crispens" beer taste. Almost have to say "why wouldn't you
run all your beer through this?" (that is if you're kegging!) Don't try 
in-the-bottle carbonation with this, 'cause most all the yeast will be removed!

 .5 micron
 Removes yeast, some body and if your beer is very cold when you filter, this
removes chill haze!  Kinda leaves your beer with a "thin" mouth feel. If you
are making lite beer (and I have) then this is the filter for you! Half mcron 
filters are not cheap!  Beer that is cold-filtered through a half micron
really should be put in clear bottles (IMHO) to let your friends hold it up
to the light and see. If you follow "better to look good than to..." this might
just do the trick.

 .1 micron
 Removes beer...
- --
 -Gary Kuyat
  gsk at sagan.bellcore.com

Return to table of contents


Date: Fri, 15 Oct 93 08:21:00 -0600
From: chuck.wettergreen at aquila.com (Chuck Wettergreen)
Subject: Alabama beer


In HBD 1248 Brian Moore <Moorebw at hvsmtp1.mdc.com> wrote:

CN> This originally started with my desire to get more exciting
CN> microbrewed beers here in the beer wasteland of Alabama. About
CN> the most exotic thing we can currently buy is the Samuel Adams
CN> Boston Lager. Figuring this was a (good) starting point, I
CN> called the local distributor and asked if they were planning to
CN> bring in any of the other Sam Adams beers. The distributor said
CN> they were working on getting another, the Octoberfest, but that
CN> there were some that they could never get (the Double Bock).

Sorry to say Brian, I got your SA Octoberfest, and it was delicious!
The first time I tried it, here in the Chicago 'burbs, the bottle 
caps had the SA logo and "Alabama" printed on them.

Chuck 
 * RM 1.2 00946 * Death is not the end; there remains the litigation..

Return to table of contents


Date: Fri, 15 Oct 93 12:26 CDT
From: korz at iepubj.att.com
Subject: Pseudo-decoction experiment


Larry writes:
>charactor and mashing techniques.  Many brew brothers do decotion and 
>modified decotion mashing claiming improved malt charactor.  This guy's
>claim was that fast, cool sparges produce low malt charactor.  He said
>that he always runs a very hot sparge (180 or higher) because that
>husky graininess makes for more malt charactor.  
>
>This guy also suggested an experiment for me to do to test out his ideas:
>next time I begin to lauter a 10 gal batch, to set aside 2 gallons of 
>mash and bring it to a rolling boil before adding it back into the lauter 
>tun.  I guess this a way of simulating a decotion mash and the carmelization 
>that occurs during the boils.  He claimed that the change in malt and 
>physical charactoristics of the mash would be obvious as I brought the 2 
>gallons to a boil.
 
I think you will increase your chances of a starch haze.  Depending on your
crush, you will have some amount of unconverted starch hiding among the
husks.  Bringing this to a rolling boil will gelatinize this hidden starch
and give your beer a starch haze.  Avoiding this problem is one of the
reasons that Noonan recommends taking only the thin portion of the mash
(just the liquid) for the final decoction (the one leading to mash-out).
 
Personally, I don't like a husky character in my beer.  Malty is one thing,
but husky is another.  Consider the flavor of wort and the flavor of spent
grains.  Wort tastes malty, spent grain tastes husky.  I prefer only the
former.
 
Al.

Return to table of contents


Date: Sat, 16 Oct 93 13:26 CDT
From: arf at mcs.com (Jack Schmidling)
Subject: Fast Spargeand Godzilla

 
 >From: polstra!larryba at uunet.UU.NET
 
 >My second to last batch was 20 min for 11 gal at ~34 pt/lb/gal
 I also typically skip mash out maybe heating the mash to 158-162 just
 to maintain a mash bed temp of 140-150 and to force conversion if the
 iodine test is not negative after 20-30 minutes....Once, a year or two ago, I 
 asked the forums if there were any negative issues w/regard to fast sparges.  
 I got no responses.
 
 I was so impressed and humbled by both postings that I had nothing to say for 
 a change.  When someone claims he can make a silk purse out of a sow's ear 
 and backs it up with the numbers, it's tough to say something clever.
 
 >This guy also suggested an experiment for me to do to test out his ideas:
 next time I begin to lauter a 10 gal batch, to set aside 2 gallons of
 mash and bring it to a rolling boil before adding it back into the lauter
 tun.....
 
 >The question: What do folks think of this theory and the experiment?  Am I
 likely to just end up with a bad starch haze and a puckery beer? 
 
 Not sure the experiment makes any sense but mashout and hot sparges have 
 become a ritual with me.  All you have to do is bring your mash to mashout 
 temperature to realize that lots of stuff is going on here.  The change in 
 color, iodine reaction, viscosity and taste would indicate that the end beer 
 ought to be effected.  Whether this is good or bad is your call or the 
 competition judges.
 
 I would suggest that a far more meaningful experiment is the obvious one.  
 Brew up a batch using a simple decoction, i.e. boil a couple of gallons after 
 the main mash reaches sach temp and dump it in.  Continue the mash as usual 
 and mash out at the end.  Sparge slowly with hot water and finish the beer.  
 Then report back to us with the difference in your beer from previous 
 batches.
 
 BTW, you "mash out" at 162F might be enough to get you over the hum.  It is 
 not exactly a cool mash and most infusions would be far cooller by the time 
 sparging is begun.
 
 >From: akcs.chrisc at vpnet.chi.il.us (chris campanelli)
 
 >Tallying the responses from both HBD and email, it appears that
 there are quite a few homebrewers out there who do not perform a
 mash-out.  More so than I imagined.
 
 As the vast majority of all grain brewers mash in plastic buckets of one sort 
 or another by adding hot water to the grain, it is not surprising that the 
 vast majority do not mash out.  
 
 
 >  I agree that the reasons you quoted are not very rationial
 >  reasons for doing a mashout but there is one reason that I think
 >  is a good one.  By raising the whole mash 20 degrees or so, you
 >  stand a far better chance of keeping it in the optimum range
 >  during the lautering process.  It's easy enough to do for those
 >  who kettle mash but it is probably not worth the trouble for the
 >  bucket infusers.
 >
 >  js
 
 <Ouch.  An idol's dagger plunges the deepest.  You assume that we
 all agree there is an optimum range and that thus there is a need
 to be within that range.
 
 No!  I assume that everything I say is taken as gospel and no further 
 discussion is necessary.  
 
 >  I do not support such assumptions.  I skip the mash-out and consistently 
 get good yields.  It should also be noted that I use a picnic cooler and 
 never perform a protein rest (Belgian malts). 
 
 Right!  And there are those out there who claim they make REAL beer with 
 extract.  We AGS's just raise our collective noses higher at such nonsense.
 
 > I won't tell you how I grind my malt because I'll be forced to use the "C" 
 word.
 
 I understand you once had a MM but traded it for a Corona because the grain 
 kept coming out of the hopper when you turned the crank.  The  Corona has an 
 arrow telling you how to turn the crank and I can understand how 
 No-Mashout-Types (NMT's) feel more comfortable with it.
 
 >Looks like Godzilla and Mothra have teamed-up to combat the
 onslaught from BOQAT.  
 
 Keep in mind that Godzilla is for real but the others are just just fictional 
 characters.
 
 I sometimes wonder why anyone else even bothers posting to this forum, 
 anything other than questions.  Unless it comes from me, one can never be 
 certain that it is the truth.
 
 js
 

Return to table of contents


Date: Sat, 16 Oct 1993 23:33:45 -0400 (EDT)
From: David J Mendonca <dm82+ at andrew.cmu.edu>
Subject: help on yeast

I'm a novice brewer (second batch) who has now learned, don't throw away
the labels to your mixes or yeasts!  My question is about yeast.  I
brewed two days ago a hopped extract for a strong ale.  Before adding
the yeast to the (pre-)wort mix, I put it in water and warmed it.  The
wort was at 70 degrees when I added the yeast.  Forty-eight hours later,
there's been nary a bubble through my fermentation lock.  Would
overwarming have killed the yeast, or was it more likely something else?
 Has anyone ever added a second dose of yeast or does that do funky
things to the batch?  Any help anyone can offer would be much
appreciated.

Thanks,

David
(e-mail dm82 at andrew.cmu.edu)

Return to table of contents


Date: Sat, 16 Oct 1993 23:56:20 -0400 (EDT)
From: RADAMSON at delphi.com
Subject: 5 Liter Kegs


I've now read a couple new posts re: 5 liter kegs and being a 5
liter expert now, I thought I'd update a post I made from around
then end O'March 93:

"I have received several inquiries regarding the 5 liter metal
keg setups. Here are my datapoints:

The problem with getting Dink, Dab, et.al. cans from the stores
is that the tap you get is a gravity tap that you insert in
bung, flop the keg upside down and 'can-open' a hole in what was
the bottom (and now on top).  Certainly makes the vessel
unreusable.

The solution is these bottom-feed CO2 cartridge taps made by
Beer*King in Germany.  I originally got my tap(s) from Hoster
Brewery (brewpub) in Columbus, OH - but they no longer 'keg'
into 5 liter cans (and, therefore, don't sell the taps anymore).
Dock Street Brewery in Philly kegs into 5 liter cans, but I'm
not sure about the type of tap they sell.  Likewise with
Stoudt's in Adamstown, PA.

A source that I do know of (and have no affiliation with) for
both taps and new empty kegs is:

   Randy Martin, Proprieter
   Brew Ha Ha, Ltd.
   209 High St
   Pottstown, PA 19464
   800-243-2620 (orders)
   215-326-2620 (Dr. Brew)
   
Randy picked up a bunch of kegs from the now defunct Happy
Valley Brewery (Penn State) and could probably set
you up.  [10/93 Note: These things went fast and I don't know
about current stock.]
   
The tap has a central stem the height of the can which feeds
brew from the bottom.  There may be a small yeast burst in the
first couple ounces of brew/foam when first tapping, but none
whatsoever afterwards.  The tap has an adjustable CO2 valve that
I "tweak-up" a little at a time to introduce more gas - you
can hear it enter and build up a bit, then back it off to zero.
I put more gas on for overnight storage, haven't had any
leaking.  Also available are Whippets or N20 cartridges to power
your creamy stouts! (I do notice "sweeter" ales when dispensed
with nitrous).  I guess you could also "try" force carbonating,
but stock up well on CO2 carts.

As far as kegging these skippers, I usually fill 3 kegs and a
dozen bottles per 5 gal batch.  And to keep it simple, I still
bulk prime as if doing bottles with either DME or Corn Sugar
(.75 cup) and just fill the cans as I go along.  I use a bottle
filling wand that does not contain a spring - just gravity &
pressure control.  I just drop the wand in the keg and do a
 take-5 for a bit.

Use your own standard priming rate, mine are low-to-fair
carbonation level (British Ales, mostly).  Since the volume is
larger than that of a bottle, the maturation time is increased
(takes longer to reach carbonation), but is well worth it.  I
leave about 1" headspace on the kegs and have had no overcarbs.
Handling and storage is the same as if they were bottles.  The 5
liter is equivalent to about 14 12oz bottles - but it goes in
the fridge better.

For Sanitizing, I just drop a few tbls of Bbrite in, fill and
soak for a couple hours prior to kegging.  So far the hardest
part about these is forcing the bung in after I fill the keg."

[current post again]

About the only problem (sic) I've had is possible
inappropriateness of 5 liters of some beers (at a time).  Like,
I made a great Raspberry Patch Brown Ale, but kegged it all.
Its great to take or have for an event, but I do get my fill of
raspberry fairly early.  The beer is a perfect match for 22 oz
brown or 25 oz champagne bottles.  I will probably only fill 1
keg with my Pumpkin Patch Ale, the rest in bottles.

Return to table of contents


Date: Sun, 17 Oct 1993 09:51:35 -0700 (PDT)
From: Domenick Venezia <venezia at zgi.com>
Subject: Yeast nutrients

What are the opinions on using yeast nutrients when preparing starters?

Chris Raymond, here at ZGI, has an experimental brew going in which he
split the starter wort into 2 portions and added "Yeast Nitrogen Base"
to one of them and did the other as normal.  YNB is a commercial 
preparation of Ammonium nitrate, trace elements, and amino acids.  It is 
added in the amount of about 7g/liter.  Chris grew the starters under the
same conditions then assayed them for total cell counts.  The YNB starter
had a cell density 10 times (!) of the other.  The numbers worked out to 
10 x 10**10 cells/liter.  I seem to remember an optimal pitch for 5 gallons
is 4 x 10**10 cells so using YNB you could pitch with a pint and get an
optimal cell count.  

Of course something could be wrong with this.  Maybe happy yeast changes
its flavor profile.  Maybe it loses attenuative ability.  Who knows?  And
that of course is the question.  Who knows?  If you do know or even have an
opinion, let's hear it.  

Chris is brewing a batch with both starters, so we should be able to do 
a side by side comparison of the results.  

Domenick Venezia
ZymoGenetics, Inc.
venezia at zgi.com





Return to table of contents


Date: Sun, 17 Oct 1993 15:31:51 -0400
From: ukcy at sunyit.edu (Kevin Yager)
Subject: COPS: Distilling is dangerous??

 On Oct 14, 10:03, Russ Gelinas wrote:
 } Subject: COPS and AHA
 } distillation.  The AHA does not condone the production of distilled
 } liquors.  It is illegal and dangerous. But once again, the homebrewing 
 } 
 } Russell Gelinas
 } esp/opal
 } unh
 }-- End of excerpt from Russ Gelinas
 
Why do you consider distilling to be dangerous?  There is an element of risk 
involved with making anything.  (including fried chicken)  Distillers simply 
take a fermented product and evaporate and condense the alcohol.
 
Illegal?  Yes.  Dangerous?   Hardly.
 
Kevin



Return to table of contents


Date: Mon, 11 Oct 93 14:50 CDT
From: akcs.chrisc at vpnet.chi.il.us (chris campanelli)
Subject: mashout necessary?

 
Tallying the responses from both HBD and email, it appears that
there are quite a few homebrewers out there who do not perform a
mash-out.  More so than I imagined.  And of course, there were the
traditionalists who tried to defend the mash-out ceremony. 
Homebrewing makes for strange bedfellows.  
 
>
>  Chris mentioned one of the benefits of mashout (the debated
>  one), but failed to mention the one on which most of us agree,
>  namely mashing out raises the temperature of the mash much
>  quicker than simply pouring sparge water and therefore more
>  quickly decreases the viscosity of the runnings.  Runnier
>  runnings mean faster sparging (without a loss of extract
>  efficiency), less chance of a set mash (stuck runoff) and more
>  efficient extraction of sugars. Remember, warm honey pours
>  easier than cold honey.
>
>  Al
>
 
Ok, I'll bite.  Where's the dividing line between "warm honey" and
"cold honey" i.e. at what point do wort sugars flow and not flow? 
I skip the mash-out and sparge with 170-180 F water.  I usually
sparge 5 gallons of water in 30-45 minutes.  My mashing
efficiencies are consistently over 80%.  Given these facts is it
safe to assume that wort sugars flow without a mash-out?
 
>
>  I agree that the reasons you quoted are not very rationial
>  reasons for doing a mashout but there is one reason that I think
>  is a good one.  By raising the whole mash 20 degrees or so, you
>  stand a far better chance of keeping it in the optimum range
>  during the lautering process.  It's easy enough to do for those
>  who kettle mash but it is probably not worth the trouble for the
>  bucket infusers.
>
>  js
>
 
Ouch.  An idol's dagger plunges the deepest.  You assume that we
all agree there is an optimum range and that there is a need to be
within that range.  I do not support such assumptions.  I skip the
mash-out and consistently get good yields.  It should also be noted
that I use a picnic cooler and never perform a protein rest (I use
Belgian malts).  I won't tell you how I grind my malt because I'll
then be forced to use the "C" word.
 
Looks like Godzilla and Mothra have teamed-up to combat the
onslaught from BOQAT.  So far BOQAT remains unscathed.  Can Tokyo
withstand another melee?  Tune in tomorrow.  Egg rolls served
during the matinee.
 
chris campanelli

Return to table of contents


Date: Mon, 18 Oct 93 05:48:02 EDT
From: DEC PHIGS development DTN 381-2275 18-Oct-1993 0550 -0400 <poegel at bgsdev.enet.dec.com>
Subject: Auto Reply from Watch_Mail for 15-OCT-1993 13:50 to 23-OCT-1993 00:00


I'm on vacation from October 16 to October 23, 1993.

I can be reached at

Dixie Landings
Walt Disney World
Lake Buene Vista, Florida

1-407-W-DISNEY (407-934-7639)

For DEC PHIGS issues, please contact Keith Comeford (BGSDEV::COMEFORD)
or Bob Crowling (BGSDEV::CROWLING).

Garry Poegel

Return to table of contents


Date: Mon, 18 Oct 93 12:05:01 +0100
From: james at sst.ph.ic.ac.uk (James Kew)
Subject: Re: Making drinks with Beeer?

blazo at aol.com writes:

> In London, England they mix bitter orange soda with beer and call the
> resultant beverage "Shandy".

Do we? If you ask for a shandy in England you will get a half-beer
half-lemonade mixture. Works with both bitter and lager. Not too bad,
actually -- it's how I started getting into beer...

> In some parts of England this is called "Orange
> Shandy" and other soda beverages, Cherry, for instance, mixed with beer would
> be called "Cherry Shandy".

I've never experienced these; not to say they don't exist though. Another
common thing to add to beer is blackcurrant cordial ("Guinness and Black")
or lime cordial (Lager and Lime).


___________________________________________________________________________
James Kew        "This dog and I are incompatible. For a start I think he's
IC, London        the wrong star sign..."     Letter, TVQuick Problems Page



Return to table of contents


Date: Mon, 18 Oct 93 08:26:27 EDT
From: andrewb6 at aol.com
Subject: RE: Shandy and making drinks with beer.

In HBD#1249, blazo at aol.com writes in RE: Making drinks with Beeer?

>In London, England they mix bitter orange soda with beer and call the
resultant beverage "Shandy".  In some parts of England this is called "Orange
Shandy" and other soda beverages, Cherry, for instance, mixed with beer 
would be called "Cherry Shandy".

>It is almost shameful to admit it but (shudder) Orange Shandy tastes pretty
darn good as a "lawnmower style" malt beverage.  I know that this probably
offends the sensitivities of most of this audience, but, refuse to judge
until you've tried it.  Mix equal parts Schweppes Bitter Orange with Doub
le
Diamond and see what I mean!


I think it should definitely be referred to as "Orange Sha
ndy" .  Traditionally, 
shandy is an even mix of beer and lemonade--where lemonade is something 
akin to 7-Up, not the type you find at a lemonade stand here in the US.
I agree, shandy is not to be dismis
sed until you've tried it, and it's a great 
compromise if you've got to take it easy '
cos you're driving.  I would avoid the 
premixed shandy though -- it's bad, very bad.

x
If you're in Britain and you've got an obliging landlord have him mix it
with beer from the hand
 -pump.  You will probably have more luck with this
xxin the south of England than in the north because (generally speaking)
re-circulating handpumps are more common in the north.  The next customer
wou
ldn't appreciate your lemonade in his best bitter.

Perhaps you may even want to try a "lager an
d lime" -- generally Rose's Lime 
Cordial.  Or even lager and black (black currant cordial), or then again 
how about a Guinness and black.

BTW, shandy is indeed a traditional English mix.  Inv
ented by a famous big-
game hunter (whose name eludes me for the moment, but I'll look it up), 
traveling in Africa.  He found that the traditional English beer (presumably 
an IPA) was not as thirst quenching as it was in a more moderate climate, 
and started mixing it with other beverages.  Like the ma
n said, "lawnmower 
style."



******************************************************************************
* Andrew Baird       *    A good pilot is one who's made the same number of  
*
* AndrewB6 at aol.com   *    landings as take-offs!                             
*

******************************************************************************


Return to table of contents


Date: Mon, 18 Oct 1993 07:53:15 -0500 (CDT)
From: dspalme at mke.ab.com (Diane Palme x2617)
Subject: Re: Beer Drinks

In yesterday's HBD, blazo at aol.com writes:

>In London, England they mix bitter orange soda with beer and call the
>resultant beverage "Shandy".  In some parts of England this is called "Orange
>Shandy" and other soda beverages, Cherry, for instance, mixed with beer would
>be called "Cherry Shandy".

>It is almost shameful to admit it but (shudder) Orange Shandy tastes pretty
>darn good as a "lawnmower style" malt beverage.  I know that this probably
>offends the sensitivities of most of this audience, but, refuse to judge
>until you've tried it.  Mix equal parts Schweppes Bitter Orange with Double
>Diamond and see what I mean!

In Germany, people will mix a light-colored beer (insert Pilzen or Weiss
here) and mix it with the equivalent of Sprite (tm) and call it a "Radler."
I believe it is done in a 50/50 ratio.  It is quite tasty on those hot,
summer days and every now and then I will consider doing the same with some
of the swill I see in my parent's 'fridge.  Good stuff!  I recommend it!
Be daring!  Give it a try!

Just my $0.02,

D.

Diane Palme
Department Engineer, Central Inspection
Allen-Bradley Co.
(414) 382-2617
dspalme at mkelan5.remnet.ab.com
dspalme at mke.ab.com

		" I have found that it is much easier to fake an
		  orgasm than to pretend to like basketball. "

Oh yeah, um, what I say is my opinion, um, what I think are my own ideas, uh,
Allen-Bradley has nothing to do with them, uh, yeah.  That's about it.

Return to table of contents


Date: Mon, 18 Oct 93 09:15:49 -0400
From: "Phillip Seitz" <p00644 at psilink.com>
Subject: Beer hunting in Belgium: Introduction

Beer Hunting in Belgium

Introduction
      (by Phil Seitz)

      With this post I would like to introduce a seven-part series
on beer and brewing in Belgium, based primarily on research
conducted by Jim Bush and myself during a visit this past summer.
      Our goal is to share as much of the beer and brewing
information we collected as possible, and the final post will
contain information on cafes, stores and other resources for
future visitors.  A few of the posts will go beyond brewing to
offer a broader narrative, particularly in cases like our tour of
the trappist brewery at Rochfort, where we were privileged to do
something that others probably won't be able to.  In these
cases we'll try to offer a vicarious tour, but hopefully without
tiresome comments about what a good time we had, etc.
      To avoid HBD bloat I will send out one "chapter" each day,
although the actual time of appearance will be subject to the
whims of HBD.  The topics covered will be as follows:

Part 1:     Rochfort (Trappist brewing)
Part 2:     Brasserie de Silenrieux (Brewing with spelt and buckwheat)
Part 3:     Liefmans and oud bruins (Sour brown beers)
Part 4:     Brasserie la Caracole (Running a very small brewery)
Part 5:     Oud Beersel (Lambics)
Part 6:     Aged beer tasting (25-year-old Orval and more) 
Part 7:     General information (Where to drink and shop)

      This was my seventh trip to Belgium in six years.  At this
point my French is pretty functional, and I have a large number
of friends and connections--many of them beer related.  While
I've been brewing for about 2 years, Jim has been doing so for
much longer and has a much deeper understanding of the processes,
equipment, and problems involved.  So we teamed up, traveling the
Belgian countryside, listening to Jim's substantial collection of
Radiators tapes, and searching for good beer.
      While I can therefore say that Jim and I brought a certain
amount of experience to this task, we are painfully aware of all
the questions we forgot to ask, or couldn't.  You are welcome to
write to either of us with inquiries about the material you'll be
seeing over the next few days, and we'll try to answer as many as
we can.  Please try to be understanding if we fail you. 
	I plan to continue visiting Belgium on a regular
basis and welcome suggestions for addition information
that needs to be collected. 
      Apologies are also offered for all the typos, misspellings,
and other editorial incongruities you'll undoubtedly find in the
posts that follow.  I've worked them over a bit, but decided that
people would rather have the information now than wait until we
could produce a more elegant piece of writing.
      Above all, we hope the following posts will be informative
and enjoyable to read.

Return to table of contents


Date: Mon, 18 Oct 93 09:15:49 -0400
From: "Phillip Seitz" <p00644 at psilink.com>
Subject: Beer hunting in Belgium: Introduction

Beer Hunting in Belgium

Introduction
      (by Phil Seitz)

      With this post I would like to introduce a seven-part series
on beer and brewing in Belgium, based primarily on research
conducted by Jim Bush and myself during a visit this past summer.
      Our goal is to share as much of the beer and brewing
information we collected as possible, and the final post will
contain information on cafes, stores and other resources for
future visitors.  A few of the posts will go beyond brewing to
offer a broader narrative, particularly in cases like our tour of
the trappist brewery at Rochfort, where we were privileged to do
something that others probably won't be able to.  In these
cases we'll try to offer a vicarious tour, but hopefully without
tiresome comments about what a good time we had, etc.
      To avoid HBD bloat I will send out one "chapter" each day,
although the actual time of appearance will be subject to the
whims of HBD.  The topics covered will be as follows:

Part 1:     Rochfort (Trappist brewing)
Part 2:     Brasserie de Silenrieux (Brewing with spelt and buckwheat)
Part 3:     Liefmans and oud bruins (Sour brown beers)
Part 4:     Brasserie la Caracole (Running a very small brewery)
Part 5:     Oud Beersel (Lambics)
Part 6:     Aged beer tasting (25-year-old Orval and more) 
Part 7:     General information (Where to drink and shop)

      This was my seventh trip to Belgium in six years.  At this
point my French is pretty functional, and I have a large number
of friends and connections--many of them beer related.  While
I've been brewing for about 2 years, Jim has been doing so for
much longer and has a much deeper understanding of the processes,
equipment, and problems involved.  So we teamed up, traveling the
Belgian countryside, listening to Jim's substantial collection of
Radiators tapes, and searching for good beer.
      While I can therefore say that Jim and I brought a certain
amount of experience to this task, we are painfully aware of all
the questions we forgot to ask, or couldn't.  You are welcome to
write to either of us with inquiries about the material you'll be
seeing over the next few days, and we'll try to answer as many as
we can.  Please try to be understanding if we fail you. 
	I plan to continue visiting Belgium on a regular
basis and welcome suggestions for addition information
that needs to be collected. 
      Apologies are also offered for all the typos, misspellings,
and other editorial incongruities you'll undoubtedly find in the
posts that follow.  I've worked them over a bit, but decided that
people would rather have the information now than wait until we
could produce a more elegant piece of writing.
      Above all, we hope the following posts will be informative
and enjoyable to read.

Return to table of contents



End of HOMEBREW Digest #1250, 10/19/93