FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Rob Gardner, Digest Coordinator


Contents:
  I want to meet her (arne thormodsen)
  Agrees with COPS show (Mike Lemons)
  wyeast/spruce/distillation temps/and more... (Brian Bliss)
  Re: Eisbock (btalk)
  PH Malt, Beer Drinks (David Holsclaw)
  The 'C' word (Domenick Venezia)
  Cider Reply (Mike Christy TEST SOFTWARE AUTOMATION x8466)
  Liquid Yeast: Friend or Fiend (Dean Cookson)
  Beer hunting in Belgium: Part 5 (Oud Beersel) ("Phillip Seitz")
  Distillation/Grain Storage/Iodophor ("Robert H. Reed")
  Grain,  (Jack Schmidling)
  barleywine yeast-handling (Tony Babinec 312 329-3570)
  Re: 120F sweet wort?? (Jim Busch)
  Polyethylene Mashout (Jack Schmidling) 
  wort chillers (SCHREMPP_MIKE/HP4200_42)
  wyeast2308 (btalk)
  Plans for Grain Mill (Dion Hollenbeck)
  Filtering / Roller Mills (npyle)
  Hot Priming/Keg Request (Spencer.W.Thomas)
  Beer Drinks (Mark Stickler Internet Mail Name)


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----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sat, 23 Oct 93 17:50:37 -0700
From: arne thormodsen <arnet at kaibutsu.cup.hp.com>
Subject: I want to meet her

=====
_____________________________________________________________________________

'Hey Ma'am! I'm not an athlete.  I'm a ball | Ulick Stafford, PP-ASEL
player' - John Kruk, Phillies firstbaseman  | Dept of Chemical Engineering,
responding to a woman who told him he was a | Notre Dame, IN 46556
bad athletic role model sitting at a bar    |    ulick at darwin.cc.nd.edu
drinking and smoking.                       |

- ------------------------------

=====

Hey, I want to meet the woman who had the nerve to
say this while she was drinking and smoking ;-)

- --arne

P.S. - I'm available, but a bear to get along with :-)


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Date: Sat, 23 Oct 93 18:14:21 PDT
From: mikel at netlink.nix.com (Mike Lemons)
Subject: Agrees with COPS show

>From HBD 1253:

>  *Can you say DEATH & BLINDNESS! Ethyl alcohol goes to a vapor within
>  a specific temperature range ( I ain't gonna quote it!) while OTHER
>  alcohols vaporize at different temps.  While ethanol won't do us any
>  harm...well...maybe a little nausea in excess...a bit of a headache...
>  some other alcohols, or components of a ferment could do some harm.
>  If it's done right-  sure you can get a fine distilled product. I even
>  tried one once- could've dropped it in a NA beer too, but I wanted to
>  try it straight.  Tasty it was!  (peeka boo!)
>      I don't have all the chemistry here to explain it...but there are
>  dangers in distilling.  That is WHY there are real laws about it, and
>  why those WILL be enforced, as depicted by such "fine" TV programs. 
>  Look it up in a library.  Most universities will have something on it.
>  
>      "I can't see I can't see"      John (The Coyote) Wyllie
>              "Why not?!"                SLK6P at cc.usu.edu
>      "I got my eyes shut! Nyuck Nyuck"
>  ******************************************************************

Wow!  Somebody actually agrees with that stupid COPS show!  I thought I
would never see the day.  I don't know what he expects us to look up.

Somebody doesn't realize that methyl alcohol was intentionally added to
"bathtub gin" during prohibition to increase its intoxicating ability.
Poisonous, but it will get you drunk.

The gorvernment arrests people who operate a still because they want
their alcohol taxes.  If they tell you that they do it for your
protection, just remember that they told Indians the same thing when
they took their land.
- --                    
INTERNET:  mikel at netlink.nix.com (Mike Lemons)
UUCP:   ...!ryptyde!netlink!mikel
Network Information eXchange * Public Access in San Diego, CA (619) 453-1115

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Date: Sat, 23 Oct 93 20:54:19 -0500
From: bliss at pixel.convex.com (Brian Bliss)
Subject: wyeast/spruce/distillation temps/and more...

In response to the responses to the 
"why doesnt wyeast take off quick enough" post(s):

I assume that it is accepted as fast that you need to make
a starter to get the yeast population up to adequate pitching
amounts.  

1) the wyeast package misadvertizes that you do not need to.

2) there package should be large enough that you don't need to.
  if the entire idea behind the "pop the inner-pouch, let it
  swell" design was to eliminate the need for a starter, it has
  failed.

3) why can't wyeast make a package that does the aformentioned?
  Industrial yeast propogation is certainly expensive, but more
  from the overhead point of view that the per-unit standpoint.
  It would not cost that much more to put more yeast in the
  package.  perhaps the size of the package is a factor, and
  and more nutrient in a larger pouch would be substantially
  more expensive.  perhaps a cheap plastic pressure relief valve?

4) I find that hopping my starters substantialy cuts down on
  the numer of infected ones.  I still throw out 1/2 of my wyeast
  starters because they do not smell/taste questionable.
  I have NEVER had an infected batch from dry whitbread ale yeast.

5) I am not satisfied with the performance of wyeast as a whole.
  The last pouch I bought took 5 days to swell, then I made a starter
  and it went sour.  I do not lead a life that can adjust my brewing
  schedule around when thedamn package swells.  I'm sure 95% of the
  human population have jobs which are even less flexible than mine.

6) I still buy wyeast and try to use it for those batches which require
  a special flavor from the yeast.  I wish there were an alternative...
  It would not take that much more work to provide us with a packaging
  that has a larger yeast population developed before you open it.

7) I do not dipuste the quality of the yeast when it actually works.

- ------------------------------

> >When should Alpha Amalyse be used?
>Thanks,Steve
> Amylase (sp!) is a combination of alpha and beta amylase.  Two 

I think the original poster also asked "how much should be used?".
How many oz of amanlyze enzyme that you buy in a bottle is the
equivalent of that in 1 lb of lager malt at 100 Lintner?

- ------------------------------

>Kevin asks:
>>Why do you consider distilling to be dangerous?  There is an element of risk 
>> involved with making anything.  (including fried chicken)  Distillers simply 
>> take a fermented product and evaporate and condense the alcohol.
>>Illegal?  Yes.  Dangerous?   Hardly.

> *Can you say DEATH & BLINDNESS! Ethyl alcohol goes to a vapor within
> a specific temperature range ( I ain't gonna quote it!) while OTHER
> alcohols vaporize at different temps.

just for my information, what are those temps?  what's the boiling point
of methanol, ethanol, CH3(n(CH2))OH, and at what temps should distillation
take place?

- ------------------------------

>So, here's a question for all you Thermodynamic type people: how effective 
>would a 30 foot length of 3/8" diameter, coiled copper tubing, be in 
>a 2 foot long, 4" inside diameter, PVC pipe?  Essentially, I want to place 
>the coil inside the PVC, with the ends of the coil entering and exiting 
>the capped ends of the PVC.  The cooling water would enter the capped 
>ends as well, but counter-flow. The "coil" diameter would be about 3.5", 
>resulting in a circumference of about 11". With each "coil" spaced about 
>1/4" apart, the length would be about 2 feet.  Of course the length and 
>size of the copper tubing can be altered, (the PVC diameter is the max. I 
>can get) but, is the idea feasible? Any comments appreciated.

try wrapping the copper tubing around a 2.5" PVC pipe, and place the entire
thing inside the 4" pipe.  seal off the inside of the inner pipe.  the design
could ceratainly be adequate, but in your proposed design, there would be
a large amound of water that would flow near the center of the tube that
would never come near the copper pipe.  It would work, but require more
water.

- ------------------------------

Regina Harrison writes:
>    I just wanted to say a word in defense of spruce beer- I made a
>batch using Papazian's recipe, with 1 oz of spruce essence, and it
>was good.  Yes, it was odd, earthy even, but I grew up drinking the
>soda versions of birch and spruce beer.  My spruce beer had similar
>taste without the sugar.  It may be that spruce essences and extracts
>are highly variable in quality...

Batch #9 of mine was a spruce "steam beer", i.e. bruce & kay's honey
spruce lager, but fermented at ale temps.  I used one 14ml bottle of
Leigh-Williams spruce extract.

quite good indeed, but had a solvent-like flavor when served a low temps -
at 55 it was great!  I defininetly would not use more spruce extract,
and if someone who lives in the Dallas area wants 2 more bottles of it
(I still have 3 more, and would rather "concentrate" on barleywine)

- ------------------------------

mrgarti at xyplex.com writes:
>what are people using to store their grain in?
>how long, under good conditions, will the grain be
>fresh?  besides rats, are there any problems associated
>with buying and keeping 50 lbs of grain?

don't worry about it, at least not if it's uncrushed...

Oh my, I used the C-word! (or is that the un-C-word? :-)

bb

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Date: Sun, 24 Oct 93 10:58:59 EDT
From: btalk at aol.com
Subject: Re: Eisbock

The recent talk about distillation got me thinking...
I've got a pretty good recipe fpr Doppelbock and was wondering about Eisbock.
If I WERE to freeze my Doppelbock, would freezing it in a cornelius keg be
agood idea. It seems then I could open it to get the ice out easily. I doubt
the ice would be in one nice chunk. probably more like slush?
How to recarbonate( besides forced co2 in the can)?
Any ideas, if I WERE to try this?
       Bob Talkiewicz

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Date: Sun, 24 Oct 1993 11:52:00 +22306512 (CDT)
From: dhholscl at rs6000.cmp.ilstu.edu (David Holsclaw)
Subject: PH Malt, Beer Drinks

Greetings,
 I have a question about the use of PH malt and hope that someone out there has
an answer. After receiving back comments on several of my brews, and after
purchasing a PH meter, I come to the realization that my mash PH's are WAY TO
HIGH!! They are in the range of 6.6 - 7.0 for a pale ale. Unless I am mistaken,
they should be more in the range of 5.0 - 5.5.
 I have tried adding several teaspoons of gypsum to the mash but am yet to see
any change.
 It was suggested to me that I try some PH malt. For those of you who have not
seen (or tasted) this stuff, it is barley malt that has been allowed to
partially "rot" for lack of a better term. This creates a very acidic malt that
allows brewers to lower their mash PH and still meet the German Purity Laws.
 My question is, how much should I use in a 5 gallon batch with 9 - 10 lbs. of
other grains? Has anyone else had problems like this with mash PH? What do you
do?

Beer Drink: My favorite starts out with a 32 oz glass with two commercial beers
in it (I wouldn't treat my beer like this). Then you add one or two (depending
on your mood) shots of Canadian Mist and then the trully unique ingrediant. One
raw egg is cracked into the glass and allowed to sit unbroken on the bottom of
the glass. The idea of the drink is to "slam" the whole thing in one drink and
believe me, when you see that raw egg start to slide down the side of the glass
it gives you the incentive to keep all that liquid moving quickly. :) We call
this drink "The Chicken Maker" and it is a New Years tradition. Enjoy!!

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Date: Sun, 24 Oct 1993 10:01:56 -0700 (PDT)
From: Domenick Venezia <venezia at zgi.com>
Subject: The 'C' word

Chris Campanelli writes:

>I won't tell you how I grind my malt because I'll
>then be forced to use the "C" word.

Then Brian Bliss writes:

>"Crack"? "Cremate"?
>Oooooooh - "C R U _ _".  (Hint - rhymes with "Lush").
>Now if we could just manage to avoid using "Mash", "Sparge",
>"Efficiency", and "Lactic", maybe we could keep the hbd down
>to a reasonable size...

Chris, correct me if I'm wrong, but I took the 'C' word to be:

"C O R O _ _".    (Hint - ryhmes with "Bologna").

BTW - I found the now infamous "faking orgasm" signoff message by 
Diane Palme quite amusing, but I must admit that I am not much of a 
fan -- of Basketball.  And I suspect that Chris Lyons' rather prudish 
response stems from the striking of some personal and painfull chord.
Chris, ... relax, don't worry, have a homebrew.

Domenick Venezia
ZymoGenetics, Inc.
venezia at zgi.com








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Date: Mon, 25 Oct 93 03:25:27 -0700
From: mchristy%spc.dnet at gpo.nsc.com (Mike Christy TEST SOFTWARE AUTOMATION x8466)
Subject: Cider Reply


	Martin W. - I cant get back to you cause of the ccm! in your
	address so I'll answer you here... From what I understand, there
	is naturally occurring apple type yeast in the cider which makes
	it "go bad". When I make a batch, I usually dissolve the sugar,
	either white or brown, in a little warm cider first then added it
	back to rest. It seems the yeast have a harder time with the white
	sugar and this seems to leave a sweeter result. They eat almost all 
	the brown. The batch I made this weekend used 1/2 cup frozen sliced
	strawberries, 1/2 cup white sugar, 1 gallon cider.... I'll let you
	know how it turns out around new years. 

						Good luck - mike


	Martin W. - I cant get back to you cause of the ccm! in your
	address so I'll answer you here... From what I understand, there
	is naturally occurring apple type yeast in the cider which makes
	it "go bad". When I make a batch, I usually dissolve the sugar,
	either white or brown, in a little warm cider first then added it
	back to rest. It seems the yeast have a harder time with the white
	sugar and this seems to leave a sweeter result. They eat almost all 
	the brown. The batch I made this weekend used 1/2 cup frozen sliced
	strawberries, 1/2 cup white sugar, 1 gallon cider.... I'll let you
	know how it turns out around new years. 

						Good luck - mike


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Date: Mon, 25 Oct 93 08:50:46 EDT
From: Dean Cookson <cookson at mbunix.mitre.org>
Subject: Liquid Yeast: Friend or Fiend


Domenick Venezia <venezia at zgi.com> Writes:
> In HBD 1251 Jerome asks if liquid yeast is Friend or Fiend.  FRIEND!!
> 
> Liquid yeast is a friend.  My beer got much better when I switched to 
> liquid yeasts.  Although the Wyeast package says you can just pitch
> directly from the package, my experience is that this is not a good idea and
> a starter is absolutely necessary.  Why?  The number of yeast cells in the
> Wyeast package is very low and results in an incredible under pitch which
> can lead to very long lag times raising the risk of infection.  

I used to think that too, but.  On each of the last two weekends I've
pitched directly from the packet.  The longer of the two lag times was
about 30 hours.  Quite reasonable in my book.

Dean



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Date: Mon, 25 Oct 93 08:37:03 -0400
From: "Phillip Seitz" <p00644 at psilink.com>
Subject: Beer hunting in Belgium: Part 5 (Oud Beersel)

Beer Hunting in Belgium: Part 5 of 7

Oud Beersel - Lambic Day
      (by Jim Busch: BUSCH at DAACDEV1.STX.COM)

      Located just a short drive south of Brussels is the town of
Beersel, where the Vandervelden family has been brewing lambics
since 1882.  We had called these people early in the day. They
had informed us that the brewery only has tours at set times, but
that we would be welcome if we wanted to come a week later and
join a group of 30 people.  We accepted this, but were a bit
disappointed.  
      Not being able to visit this brewery, we decided to venture
elsewhere in search of lambic-type beers.  Our first stop was an
accidental discovery in the small town of St. Genesius-Rode,
located south of Brussels and east of Beersel.  There we found
beer hunting heaven, Drinks Wets (209 Steenweg op Halle), a
Belgian version of Liquor Barn.  In this beer store one can find
a entire wall full of lambics, some with the "old style"
white-washed bottles, some with big names like Cantillion and
Frank Boon, and some actually oozing lambic out of the wet cork
(Hannsens).  Our shopping carts quickly filled with lambics,
Belgian specials and Abbey beers and of course, Belgian
glassware.   Fortunately for us, they accepted VISA!  We each
departed with a hefty load of some really diverse beers.  The day
was young and we were already quite pleased with the results.
      We ventured on to Beersel, in search of the cafe that
Michael Jackson notes in his book on Belgium beers (The Three
Fountains).  When we arrived we realized the cafe was closed on
Tuesdays, the day of our visit.  We got a bite to eat next door
and inquired about good beers of the area.  We were informed that
Oud Beersel was the best lambic around and the brewery, being
right on the other side of the town, and a must visit.  
      Off we went, and following the Oud Beersel signs we had
little difficulty finding the brewery.  The outside features red
and white tiles with the words: Kriek/Gueuze.  Upon entering, an
older man began a discussion in French with Phil, that I was not
in tune to.  Much back and forth ensued, with the occasional
apology offered from Phil.  Soon I was informed that the
discussion centered on the fact that we had called earlier and
were told NO, only to arrive later anyway.  Phil successfully
explained that we had no idea that Oud Beersel Brewery and the
Vandervelden were the same thing.  It helped at this point to
inquire about purchasing their lambics, and sure enough we were
informed that beer was available for sale, as long as we were
willing to buy it by the case.  No problem.  We got six 750 ml
bottles each of Kriek and Gueuze. 
      The beer was stored in the traditional manner, on the side
with a swath of white or pink paint to indicate "up".  After some
discussion, it was decided that labels might help, since we
already were transporting a ton of beer around the country.  The
brewer glued the labels on one by one. 
      While Phil was busy taking care of this important activity,
I ran back to the car for my camera, and started shooting
pictures of the place.  Eventually we asked enough questions that
we were given an unofficial tour.  A typical lambic brewery, the
mash tun and boil kettle are weathered insulated cylinders, the
insulation being held on with duct tape.  A vertical system was
in use, where a masonry-built painted grain shoot feeds the mash
tun.  Everything was quite dusty, with wooden planks forming a
second tier walkway for the brewer to work on the top of the
tanks.  I was constantly concerned that I would fall through this
very crude arrangement.  There were two separator/cooling tanks,
if one can call them a tank.  They were basically a coolship in
the shape of a tall bath tub, with slotted plates on the bottom. 
This was the traditional cool ship, where the hot and cold breaks
settle out and the initial inoculation of the local microbes
begins.  (One note: this takes place deep in the interior of the
brewery; there appears to be little direct exposure to outdoor
air.)  I recall a comment that the wort sits in this overnight. 
After exiting the coolship, the wort is transferred into one of
two large primary fermentation tanks, constructed of metal. 
After a primary fermentation period, the beer is racked into
Chestnut casks--the brewer swears by them and recoiled with
horror at the possibility of using oak.  The casks are marked and
stored in the lambic way, noting the dates and contents on the
face of the cask.  
      Of note in this brewery is the wall full of hand cooperage
tools from the mid nineteenth century.  Also of note is the old
barrel cleaning device, a frame in which the cask is suspended,
allowing it to be rotated with hot water and chains inside to
"knock" off the gunk.  This is nearly identical to the
arrangement at the Cantillon brewery.
      The brewer himself (presumably Mr. Vandervelden) is getting
on in years, though hardly decrepit.  He informed us that his
young nephew was now in the business, which is likely to stay
open for a good while.  They're not getting rich, but the brewery
makes enough money to stay open and support their families.  Most
sales are to serious beer connoisseurs--the popular market
provides little if any support.

The beers:
In my opinion, these beers are certainly traditional lambics, dry
nearly to austerity, and exhibiting a flavor and aroma profile
that has some horsehair and saddle notes.  This is not to say I
disliked them; on the contrary, they are good, enjoyable lambics. 
      The Kriek had definite cherry notes and flavor, but not in
the dominant way that a Frank Boon or Hannsens does.  It is more
of a subdued and blended flavor.  It's color is almost
fluorescent pink.  The gueuze is a good example of a traditional
lambic, but nowhere near as tart and acidic as a Cantillion, nor
as sweet as the Belle Vue-like beers.
      In comparison with other lambic products, the Oud Beersel
beers are less rich than some others (if this is a word that can
be used to describe beers as attenuated as these!).  The beers
are certainly less horsey than the Girardin products, less fruity
than Hanssens, less extreme than Cantillon but also lacking in
some of Cantillon's satisfying lactic character.  Obviously,
though, none of these are what the average lager drinkers are
going to warm up to, and if you're into lambic beers the
differences are ones that you'd enjoy exploring.
      Oud Beersel products do not appear to be widely distributed,
but can be purchased at the brewery, and also in some stores in
Beersel (of which there are not many).  We saw them for sale in
the delicatessen across from the church, next door to the 3
Fountains.


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Date: Mon, 25 Oct 1993 10:23:11 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Robert H. Reed" <rhreed at icdc.delcoelect.com>
Subject: Distillation/Grain Storage/Iodophor

 
Coyote writes:

>   *Can you say DEATH & BLINDNESS! Ethyl alcohol goes to a vapor within
>   a specific temperature range ( I ain't gonna quote it!) while OTHER
>   alcohols vaporize at different temps.  While ethanol won't do us any
>   harm...well...maybe a little nausea in excess...a bit of a headache...
>   some other alcohols, or components of a ferment could do some harm.

Isn't Methanol(wood alcohol) the usual culprit in death and blindness cases
resulting from consumption of illegally distilled adult beverages?  I always
thought this was not a result of the distillation process, but due to the
*bad stuff* that the moonshiners put in their mash i.e., "fermentables"
other than corn, potatoes or rice, etc.  Is this true?  Perhaps other alcohols
(fusel alcohols) could result in death in very high concentrations?        


Mark Garti writes:

> what are people using to store their grain in?
> how long, under good conditions, will the grain be
> fresh?  besides rats, are there any problems associated
> with buying and keeping 50 lbs of grain?
> mrgarti at xyplex.com

I have found that the food grade containers that deli's use are good
for storage of grains.  I think the square mayonnaise containers work
best.  They are the easy to clean and the lids are fairly easy to
attach and remove.  I recommend filling them to the top and purging
with CO2 to keep the grain as dry as possible.  I have tried to use
containers that pickles and salad dressings are shipped in and could
never get the vinegar odor out.  I suggest using mayo containers or
icing containers from bakeries if you go this route.  Scrub them several
times to make sure they are totally clean.


Question:  Someone posted something regarding IODOPHOR in this or a 
previous HBD:  what does the -phor designate in the name IODOPHOR?  I
have used BTF iodophor which doesn't contain phosphoric acid and I have
recently obtained an iodine sanitizing solution that *does* contain
phos. acid.  What gives?       

Rob



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Date: Mon, 25 Oct 93 09:40 CDT
From: arf at mcs.com (Jack Schmidling)
Subject: Grain, 

 
 >From: garti at mrg.xyplex.com (Mark Garti)
 >Subject: grain storage
  
 >besides rats, are there any problems associated with buying and keeping 50 
 lbs of grain?
 
 The most serious problem I have is with cereal moths.  They are impossible to 
 get rid of once they find you so prevention is the best cure.  Keep the 
 containers covered at all times.
 
 >From: Steve Seaney <seaney at ie.engr.wisc.edu>
 >Subject: Plans for Grain Mill
 
 >The other day I saw one of Jack Schmedling's  (sp?).....
 
 ....Schmidling...
 
 > grain mills at a brew store.  It doesn't appear to be that hard to make.  
 
 It's not if you have all the equipment and skills needed; lots of people have 
 but don't confuse making one for your own use with making them to sell to the 
 public.
 
 >The cost seems extremely high.
 
 I think you mean price as you don't seem to have a handle on the costs 
 involved in making them.
 
 Keep in mind that when one decides to retail something, the stores have to 
 mark it up and if you sell through distributors who sell to the stores, they 
 also take their cut.  Add your own profit on to that and you will understand 
 why the market is not flooded with inexpensive roller mills.
 
 The two that have come out since the MM should give you a clue.  One has only 
 a single roller and both are less then half the size of the MM but are only 
 $20 less at the retail level.
 
 >Has anyone out there ever made a roller mill?
 
 Yes.  I made one and it cost me $10 and a weekend.  But when strangers 
 started to buy them I had to put a value on that weekend.....
 
 >  Do you have any plans handy?
 
 What do you need plans for?  Just look at a MM and copy it.  Nothing could be 
 simpler :)
 
 >From: Wolfe at act-12-po.act.org
 >Subject: Going all-grain
  
 >  First, I am considering mashing on a burner rather than using a
 cooler for a mash tun.  Is the primary reason for using the cooler rather
 than a burner the reduced investment in time and money? 
 
 I won't attempt to define primary reasons but the only reason I know of for 
 using a cooler is because the are about the right form factor and being 
 inuslated, the retain heat well.  I don't see how it can be less expensive 
 than stove top mashing because you must have a kettle in either case.
 
 > I guess I want to know how much of a hassle is it to mash on the stove as 
 opposed to mashing in a cooler and if there are any differences in the 
 quality of the brew.
 
 Both of these are subjective but as there are proponents of both, there is 
 good reason to ask.  The cooler requires little attention but has limited 
 flexibility while the opposite is true of kettle mashing.
 
 > Second, because I want to mash on the stove I need to invest in a
 larger brew kettle.  So far, I've only done high density extract &
 partial mash brewing so I've gotten by with only a 2.5 gallon kettle.  I've
 found a medium-duty 7.5 gallon SS kettle with a lid and a spigot for about
 $100.
 
 It would be fine but you can do just as well with a $40 enamel on steel 8 gal 
 kettle for mashing and boiling.  When you want to move up to larger batches, 
 just buy a larger boiler and use the original as a mash tun.
 
 >Third, I read a comment a while back about trying to get a 5 gallon
 batch of all-grain brew into a 5 gallon carboy.
 
 My suggestion is to use the kettle as a primary fermenter and move the beer 
 to the carboy after primary is over and you will have no problem with the 
 carboy size.  I have been fermenting in my mash tun for several years now and 
 find it terribly convenient.  
 
 > I've been using a stopper and a racking can as my blowoff valve, but have 
 heard a number of people report using a 1" pipe attached to the top of the 
 carboy.  Any insights?
 
 Take a Ritilin and pack your blowoff stuff away for one batch and try my 
 suggestion.  My guess is you will never unpack it.
 
 js
 

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Date: Mon, 25 Oct 1993 10:12:07 -0500 (CDT)
From: tony at spss.com (Tony Babinec 312 329-3570)
Subject: barleywine yeast-handling

You should be able to brew a barleywine using a suitable ale 
yeast.  Pitching a second yeast, such as a champagne yeast, is 
not necessary.

The yeast you use must be alcohol-tolerant and moderately 
attenuative.  If there is any doubt about these properties in the 
yeast you intend to use, then you should try it out in a test 
wort first.  Apparent attenuation should be about 70%, as 
with any beer you make.

It is important to pitch an adequate amount of yeast, and this 
is especially true for barleywines.  As a rule of thumb, for any 
ale, consider pitching a one-quart starter.  For the typical 5-
gallon batch, this represents a 1:20 volume pitch, and is easy 
to remember.  For high-gravity beers, pitch a half-gallon 
starter, which represents a 1:10 volume pitch.

I feel it is important to aerate the wort.  The home-made 
aquarium pump aerator works well.

Yeast that work include Wyeast "American" ale and Wyeast 
"British" ale.  Regarding "American," consider that Chico 
Brewing uses it in all their ales including Bigfoot Ale, a high-
gravity barleywine.  Regarding "British," it is an amalgam of 
three yeasts:  one is a fast starter that quits at low alcohol 
levels, a second is a slower-starting alcohol-tolerant 
fermenter, and the third is a "chainer" that causes the yeast to 
flocculate.  

So, if you use the right yeast and help them get started, they'll 
produce a barleywine with no added champagne or wine 
yeast.



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Date: Mon, 25 Oct 1993 11:19:19 -0500 (EDT)
From: Jim Busch <busch at daacdev1.stx.com>
Subject: Re: 120F sweet wort??

In the last digest:

<Date: Thu, 21 Oct 93 10:50 CDT
From: arf at mcs.com (Jack Schmidling) 
Subject: Polyethylene Mashout

<I am using Low Density Polyethylene tubing for transferring wort.  It is FDA 
approved and has a temp range of -70 to 120F and it handles sweet wort temp 
just fine.

I can assure you that my sweet wort is above 120F, so I wonder the widom of
using 120F rated tubing in this manner.  I use a cut off plastic turkey baster.

Best, Jim Busch


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Date: Mon, 25 Oct 93 15:32:00 +0000
From: SCHREMPP_MIKE/HP4200_42 at ptp.hp.com
Subject: wort chillers

In HBD 1253, Greg Demkowicz asks about coiling a copper tube insid a 4" PVC
pipe to make a counter-flow chiller. Here's my 2cents worth:

Your idea sounds like a lot less frustration than trying to slide 30 feet of
copper pipe through 30 feet of garden hose. I've done it and it isn't fun. If
anyone does try this, definitely use a lubricant, like soap, and plan a for a
few hours of frustration. I'd suggest that you also put a length of 2" PVC
(capped at both ends) down the inside of your cooling coil. This will keep the
cooling water flowing around the copper coils and not down the center of your
chiller.

That being said, I'd also advise you to think through whether it's worth the
effort of brewing with the counter flow device instead of an immersion chiller.
I've gone full circle with wort chillers, from immersion to counterflow, and
finally (just this weekend) back to immersion. I've found that counterflow
chillers are the fastest to cool the wort, but immersion chillers are the
easiest to use.

My counterflow chiller was outside and was hooked to the garden hose. Using it
meant sanitizing it, carrying a pot of boiling wort outside, getting the flow
running, figuring out what to do with the water, and finally cleaning the thing
out. What a pain in the butt!

This weekend I bought the cheapest immersible pump I could get at the hardware
store ($33.95 for 120gallons/hour) and I made a coil out of some 3/8" copper
tubing. I use the pump to circulate water from an ice chest filled with ice and
water (actually I ran the outflow into the kitchen sink, and added cold water
to keep the ice chest topped up). With 20' of plastic tubing (10 at each end of
the chiller), and the chiller (20' of copper), the actual flow rate of the pump
was about 2q/min. I left the recirculating setup running while I sanitized my
carboy. It took about 45 minutes to get from boiling down to 70F, not fast, but
then I'm not into speed-brewing. Plus, the big advantages: no moving a pot of
boiling wort, no sanitization hassles (I put the chiller into the boiling wort),
and no flowing water to put somewhere. All told, a major improvement in lowering
the stress of the brew day.


Mike Schrempp

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Date: Mon, 25 Oct 93 11:25:19 EDT
From: btalk at aol.com
Subject: wyeast2308

Phil Brushaber asks about this.
I've made two award winning doppelbocks w/ this yeast. First made into
starter culture. Fermented 3 weeks  at 46-47 F,then 1 wk  at  55F,rack into
secondary & lager ~32 for 3 weeks.
the 1 wk  at  55 is called 'dicetyl rest' (sp?).
 Try longer lagering time if you are able.
  Good luck.       BobTalkiewicz

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Date: Mon, 25 Oct 93 08:51:11 PDT
From: megatek!hollen at uunet.UU.NET (Dion Hollenbeck)
Subject: Plans for Grain Mill


>>>>> On Thu, 21 Oct 1993 09:17:55 -0500 (CDT), 
	Steve Seaney <seaney at ie.engr.wisc.edu> said:

Steve> The other day I saw one of Jack Schmedling's (sp?) grain mills
Steve> at a brew store.  It doesn't appear to be that hard to make.
Steve> The cost seems extremely high.

Steve> Has anyone out there ever made a roller mill?  Do you have any
Steve> plans handy?

Well, I can remain silent no longer.  So many people look at a
commercial product and say exactly what Steve has.  What they fail to
recognize is the difficulty of actually tracking down all the
specialized parts and *tools* necessary to duplicate almost any
commercial product available.  How long will it take you to find a
supplier of just the right allen head set screw to attach the handle?
Will you have to get your end mill sharpened before cutting the flat
on the roller to tighten the set screw up to?  How many taps will you
break tapping the hole for the set screw?  How many drills will you
dull?  Do you have the correct router bit to round over the wooden
edges.  How much lubricating oil will you use in milling the grooves
in the rollers?  How many times will you have to re-make the rollers
until you get them made out of just the right kind of steel (or are
you a metallurgist)?  How much electricity will you use running your
machines and lights while you make it?  How much is your time worth?
You probably will take at least 5 times longer to make a roller mill
than a commercial vendor takes.  Do you have a lathe and mill?  How
much wear and tear will you put on these expensive machine tools?

Bottom line, you may be able to make any commercial product for much
less than it is sold for if you ignore everything but the cost of the
materials.  On top of that, you are not trying to make a living out of
it.  If you really figure *everything* in, I would doubt you could
beat the retail price by much if any at all since anyone who intends
to remain in business will be buying in volume and getting prices on
raw materials which you could never come close to at onesey prices.

If you enjoy building things, by all means, you have my whole-hearted
support to go ahead.  I even wish you the good fortune to improve upon
Jack's mill or any other brewing product for the betterment of all of
us brewers.  But, please do not make light of the effort that goes
into producing the great products which are being offered to us.
Knowing what it takes to produce these, I am quite satisfied that we
as home-brewers are getting fair value for our money frome the vast
majority of brewing equipment manufacturers.

Steve, I do not mean to single you out, this thread has popped up so
many times, I just took the opportunity of your post to reply to a
topic which has been bugging me for a long time.

Dion Hollenbeck (619)455-5590x2814     Email: hollen at megatek.com
Senior Software Engineer                      megatek!hollen at uunet.uu.net
Megatek Corporation, San Diego, California    ucsd!megatek!hollen



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Date: Mon, 25 Oct 93 9:59:38 MDT
From: npyle at n33.stortek.com
Subject: Filtering / Roller Mills

Jim Sims asks:

>Okay - I give up. How *do* I filter out those bits of gunk, fruit,
>etc from the primary (or secondary) fermenter when ready to bottle,
>without oxidizing? To say nothing of trying to filter out the hops,
>etc *before* going _into_ the primary....

Letting it fall out of suspension, then quiet racking is the usual solution.
Using a racking cane, you leave the bottom 1/2" in the vessel (this is usually
the stuff you don't want).  You could put a hop bag over the end of your
racking cane to help it out.  Using whole hops eases filtering every step of
the way, BTW.

Steve Seaney writes:

>The other day I saw one of Jack Schmedling's  (sp?) grain mills at a
>brew store.  It doesn't appear to be that hard to make.  The cost
>seems extremely high.
>
>Has anyone out there ever made a roller mill?  Do you have any plans
>handy?

Steve, I've made two grain mills, with tons of help from my father-in-law the
tinkerer.  They _are_ hard to make, if you are going to do it right.  The
rollers are the key, and getting a constant distance from the shaft to the
surface of the roller is the hardest part.  We are talking about some very
small tolerances here.  The mill I now use cost about $75 in parts and many
hours of labor.  Jack's mill may or may not be better (I suspect it is a draw)
but it is without a doubt a better "deal".  IMHO, Jack's mill is worth the
price.  On the other hand, if you like making brewing equipment, then build it
yourself.  I did, and I love it!  Oh, I don't have any plans handy, sorry!

norm

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Date: Mon, 25 Oct 93 12:24:35 EDT
From: Spencer.W.Thomas at med.umich.edu
Subject: Hot Priming/Keg Request

Dion mentions SABCO as a source of kegs for brewing.  Another vendor,
with possibly lower prices, is pico-Brewing Systems (313)482-8565 /
(313)485-BREW (Fax). I think they actually get their kegs from SABCO.

Disclaimer: the proprietors of pico-Brewing are friends of mine, but
I've got no financial interest in the company.

=Spencer

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Date: Mon, 25 Oct 93 12:52:41 EDT
From: Mark Stickler Internet Mail Name <mstickle at lvh.com>
Subject: Beer Drinks

Just remembered a beer drink I had once. I think it was called a "Rocky 
Mountain Oyster Cocktail". You take a Pilsner glass, drop a tablespoon
of cocktail sauce in the bottom, drop a raw oyster on top and then fill	
with a can of Coors. The idea is to then chug the whole thing without
getting sick. The oyster usually travels down the side of the glass
rather slowly and into your mouth. Not for the faint of heart or queesy.

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End of HOMEBREW Digest #1256, 10/27/93