FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Rob Gardner, Digest Coordinator


Contents:
  Brass in the boil (npyle)
  Re: Thoughts on a recipe for standard American beers... (Jeff Benjamin)
  Carbonation (esonn1)
  Sorbate, .sigs (Geoff Cooper)
  DRE, Wyeast, Etna lables (ELQ1)
  Mash Out (again!) (npyle)
  Kraeusening (Frank Haist)
  HELP ("SHAMAN at WHARTON")
  Re: Late Kettle Hop Additions (Corby Bacco)
  More Beer. Less Tax. (Chuck Cox)
  Re: scraping hops (mcdcup!tellabs.com!don)
  IPA/Keg Clarity/Sigs/Distill COPS NOT! (COYOTE)
  Dopplebock (Phil Brushaber)
  "Scotch Ale" by Greg Noonan (eurquhar)
  Homebrew Digest (Bruce Feist)
  Beer drink... (J. Michael Diehl)
  Re: hops & counterflow (Jim Grady)
  Re:Beer Shelf Life (John_D._Sullivan.wbst311)
  Hops FAQ, Part 5/5 (npyle)
  Re: Jack & the perfect chiller (Jim Busch)
  Wit Bier recipe (Keith MacNeal  29-Oct-1993 1021)
  Advantages of ascorbic acid? (lincecum)
  CF Chiller Effects on Hop Character (Spencer.W.Thomas)
  THE NEW ENGLAND BEER CLUB (John D. Pavao)
  Re: Chillers  (Drew Lynch)


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----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 28 Oct 93 9:51:56 MDT
From: npyle at n33.stortek.com
Subject: Brass in the boil

A week ago, Andrew asked about brass in the boil.  I have a brass fitting
inside of my boiler as well, so I'm also curious to hear the answer.  As far
as your ball valve attached to the outside, if it gets anywhere near as hot as
mine, it will be sanitized.  I put a 4" nipple between my pot and valve to get
it away from the heat (I also hang a wet rag over the nipple to keep it
cooler).  I use a CF chiller with this system, though, so mine gets piping hot
wort run through it (no sanitation worries).

Old Lucifer update:  1.036 after 5.5 weeks.  The yeast (started with Wyeast
London Ale, pitched Wyeast British Ale later) is apparently giving up, since
this beer is starting to get very clear.  As much as I hate to do it, I may
have to punt (i.e. pitch a frog yeast).  And that's SG for the nitpicky
coyote!:)

Cheers,
Norm

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Date: Thu, 28 Oct 93 9:55:40 MDT
From: Jeff Benjamin <benji at hpfcbug.fc.hp.com>
Subject: Re: Thoughts on a recipe for standard American beers...

> I am guessing that the standard American mass-produced beer is using a
> bunch of corn sugar instead of malt....  Am I on the right track, or are
> these beers made with extremely light malt instead.

You're close.  Most American mega-brewers use large percentages of corn
or rice, but usually flaked or powdered grains rather than sugar.  The
corn or rice adjuncts are converted to sugar by the barley enzymes.
This is one way of providing more fermentables without adding much color
or flavor (or cost; processed sugar is comparatively expensive).  Too
much sugar can also produce undesirable "cidery" flavors in your beer.

Also, the mega-brewers (at least around here, Coors and Anheuser-Busch)
often have specially grown varieties of barley that are specially
malted.  Typically, the malt is not cured, or roasted after drying,
resulting in malt that is paler than you can usually find at the
homebrew shop.

My advice on making a mega-brew clone:  use the palest malt you can
find, and use a large portion (maybe 25-30%) of flaked corn or rice
extract.  Most mega-beer also has less alcohol than a typical homebrew,
so shoot for a lower gravity beer, maybe 1.035-40 OG.  This means a
higher ratio of water to grain, which will also lighten it.

Your beer may not end up quite as pale as a Bud, but I'd rather have my
homebrew a few shades darker in color and a few shades higher in taste!

- --
Jeff Benjamin                               benji at hpfcla.fc.hp.com
Hewlett Packard Co.                         Fort Collins, Colorado	
"Midnight shakes the memory as a madman shakes a dead geranium."
					    - T.S. Eliot

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Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1993 11:57:11 -0400
From: esonn1 at cc.swarthmore.edu
Subject: Carbonation

What's up?
I'm currently brewing a brown ale and would like to ask the HBD brain trust
about how much I should fee my yeast before bottling.  I have always used
3/4 cup of priming sugar for a 5 gallon batch.  I read in the Papazian book
that you could use as much as one cup, but that you have to chill the
bottles and risk some gushers.  Should I read "gushers" as bottle
explosions, or does it refer to overcarbonation?  (I have never had a
bottle explode on my and I would rather keep it that way) I would like this
beer to carbonate earlier than my other batches, if possible.  Once ready,
the beer will not stay around long because I'm brewing it for a party, so
I'm not worried about it sitting too long and building up too much
pressure.  Would using extract rather than priming sugar make it carbonate
faster?  Would I be better off just using the usual 3/4 cup of sugar and
making sure the bottles are at the higher end of the suggested temperature
range?  Should I just stick with my old tried and true method and push off
the party an extra week? 

Responses through the digest or directly to me would both be fine.
Thanks in advance.  
Eugene
esonn1 at cc.swarthmore.edu


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Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1993 16:16:29 +0000
From: G.A.Cooper at qmw.ac.uk (Geoff Cooper)
Subject: Sorbate, .sigs

COYOTE <SLK6P at cc.usu.edu> writes:

>meade at readmore.com asked about:
>Sorbate/Sulphate
>
>*  Potassium Sorbate is a "stabilizer"  It will not STOP an
>active ferment but will inhibit initiation of growth. Both
>yeast and bacteria.

Not quite true. Although sorbate does inhibit yeast (only a small amount is
needed to prevent your starter culture from working on your wort/must) it does
*not* inhibit bateria. Well, not all bacteria if it does stop some.

In particular, some strains of Lactobacilus remain unaffected. In wine/cider
making, sorbate should be avoided in the initial ingredients. It can be added
at (or near) the end of ferment in order to stabilise a brew containing 
residual fermentable sugars - you might be wanting a sweet cider. But in wine
making, it should *always* be used in conjunction with campden tablets. (That
might also be true for cider!). The reason: sorbate can be decomposed, by a
bacterium, to create geraniol which gives a very strong smell of geraniums; the
campden is needed to knock out the bacteria.
  
>You Don't want cider with sorbate.  Find an orchard and get
>the fresh pressed- unfiltered stuff.  Much worth it!

That's very good advice.

********

And dspalme at mke.ab.com (Diane Palme x2617) now signs off with:

                "In the beginning, it was the Plan."

Now that's not funny! Not the slightest hint of the wry little smile twitched
the corners of my mouth like it used to when Diane previously wrote. :-(
( snip, snip...  <- that's the sound of my removing the bit about humourless
  moral policemen and PC speakers. It's the wrong forum. Shrug shoulders, 
  carry on ...  )

It's not true either Diane. Didn't John the Evangelist start
  
        "In the beginning was the wort, and the wort was good ....."

Geoff



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Date: Thu, 28 Oct 93 08:51:04 PDT
From: ELQ1%Maint%HBPP at cts27.comp.pge.com
Subject: DRE, Wyeast, Etna lables

       Hello All,
   In HBD #1257 Vic asks about brewing a Bud like beer, and its recipe.
  I did a batch very similer with fair results, [although more Miller like]
  and if you notice the ingredients on a Bud it says right there, Rice 
  Extract, I used 3 lbs DRE or Dried Rice Extract, 3 lbs DME Light Aust. and
  pitched with Wyeast #2308 Munich, useing DRE instead of sugar will improve  
  crispness and will prevent the nasty cider taste of the sugar.
  
    I have used both Wyeast #2308 Munich and #2306 Baverian and have had good
  results, and strange fermentation rates, but still had good brew.
  
    One comment on using Ammonia to remove lables, works great one them, 
  except, an Etna Lager lable, they use a rubbery glue, the ammonia helps, 
  butt... let'em soak a day or two.
  p.s. M. Nelson at HSU? your local, call me 4-8659 

                     Ed Quier, ELQ1 at MAINT at HBPp

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Date: Thu, 28 Oct 93 10:42:39 MDT
From: npyle at n33.stortek.com
Subject: Mash Out (again!)

I had to add some ammo to the recent mash out wars.  Note that I do not mash
out; I'm looking for reasons to do it.  In that vein, I found these sniglets
in the Winter 1992 Zymurgy, in an article titled "Beer Stability" by Micah
Millspaw (formerly of HBD-fame) and Bob Jones (currently of HBD-fame).
Reproduced without permission (typos are mine):

"What is an unstable beer and why should we be concerned about not brewing one?
Unstable beers are ones that tend to throw a haze and later have flavor staling
and oxidation problems.  Oxidation plays an important role in the formation of
protein haze and melanoidins function as antioxidants to prevent the oxidation
of protein.  Melanoidins are compounds formed by amino acid - carbohydrate
reactions induced by heat.  Oxidation also plays an important part in the
production of colloidal haze, hence the name "oxidation haze", first coined by
Helm, a German brewing scientist, in the early part of this century.  Colloids
are particulate matter in a solution.  Moreover, the formation of chill haze is
considerably increased by oxidation."

"Unstable colloids promote chill haze and permanent haze in beer."

"Melanoidins are stable complexes formed at high (mash-out) temperatures, they
are colloidal in nature and are powerful reducing agents giving an acid
reaction in aqueous solutions."

"Their colloidal nature enables them to 'protect' unstable colloids present in
beer and to prevent haze formation.  At the same time, melanoidins are powerful
reducing agents and this too can prevent beer from throwing a haze.  In
addition, the acid character of melanoidins helps to improve the quality of
beer.  Melanoidins formed at 170 degrees F (76.5 degrees C) are more stable
than those formed at the lower temperatures of conventional mashing.  Adding
specialty malts only in the mash-out can make the mash more efficient by
maximizing the formation of melandoidins, optimizing saccharifications and
eliminating steeping vessels and/or grain bags."

"In 1922, Visez, a brewing scientist at Louvain, in Belgium, showed that
dextrins also act as protective colloids to diminish colloidal haze.  This
means that beer with higher dextrin levels are much less subject to colloidal
haze than beers with low dextrin levels."

"This method of using dark and cystal malts (adding them at mash-out) will
increase the quantity of melanoidins in your finished beer, thereby leading to
smoother and rounder flavors from the specialty grains as well as more stable
and clearer beers.  The use of this mash-out technique also can reduce metallic
flavors that often occur in dark beers but are not actually caused by metal
ions in the brewing process."

So, according to this article (color commentary in parentheses):
1) Oxidation plays an important role in haze and other stability problems (no
   surprise here),
2) Unstable colloids promote haze,
3) Melanoidins are colloidal in nature, and when stable, can protect against
   haze and other stability problems, (melanoidins are our friends)
4) Melanoidins formed at mash-out temperatures are more stable than those
   formed at normal mash temperatures, (mash-out helps our friends?)
5) Specialty grains added at mash-out help with this stable melanoidin
   formation, and contribute to smoother, more stable beer (I knew about the
   smoothness part, didn't know it would help with stability)
6) The higher the dextrin level, the less colloidal haze (mash-out stops
   dextrins from breaking down)

Interesting stuff, eh?  Maybe mash-out helps?  One could argue that if proper
procedures are followed with respect to HSA avoidance, the mash-out may not be
as critical.  On the flip side, I've had haze problems in the past with very
careful attention to HSA (of course, there are other factors involved in
hazes).  If I continue to have haze problems, I may find a way to do a proper
mash-out as an experiment.  I highly recommend this article as well as George
Fix's HSA article in the same issue.  They go into much more than what I've
shown (I just wanted to provide some info on the current discussion).

Norm

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Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1993 10:08:41 -0700
From: haist at cogsci.UCSD.EDU (Frank Haist)
Subject: Kraeusening

    Next weekend I'm going to make my initial foray into all-grain
brewing, but first I'd like to tap some of sage advice from this
group.  My current set-up for fermenting includes two 5-gallon 
carboys.  After spending the money for most of the all-grain 
equipment, I decided to wait on a 7-gallon cb.  Based on most recipes
it looks like I can expect about 5.5 gallons of wort after the boil.
that will yield about 5 gal after fermenting blowoff.  I'm planning to 
take the initial 1/2 gallon excess, store it (via standard canning
procedures for sanitation), and then use it to kraeusen the beer
prior to bottling.  This seems to have three immediate advantages:
1) I can continue my preferred method of primary and secondary 
fermentation in glass carboys, 2) I will end up with a true "all-malt"
ale, and 3) the final volume will still be about 5 gallons.  I have
two main questions.  What are people's experiences, good and bad,
with kraeusening?  Second, how accurate is the equation given by
Papazian for determining the amount of wort (I guess now called
gyle) in getting similar carbonation to 3/4 c corn sugar (Appendix
3, pp. 331-332)?  Thanks in advance.

- ---Frank
haist at cogsci.ucsd.edu


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Date: 28 Oct 1993 14:56:24 -0500 (EST)
From: "SHAMAN at WHARTON" <SHAMAN at wharton.upenn.edu>
Subject: HELP


I'm a new brewer working on my second batch. I started this one 7
days ago and so far there has been no fermentation that I can detect--
the airlock hasn't bubbled once. A few days ago someone suggested adding
more yeast but only after starting some of it in warm water. The yeast
bubbled in the water and I poured it into the wort, but still nothing.
Anyone have any suggestions?  

Thanks.
Patrick Kelly
shaman at wharton.upenn.edu

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Date: Thu, 28 Oct 93 13:04:21 MDT
From: bacco at md.fsl.noaa.gov (Corby Bacco)
Subject: Re: Late Kettle Hop Additions

O.K. I'm a little behind on my HBD (lot of traffic on Lambic digest 
lately).  

   In Tuesday`s HBD Norm asked about extracting more bittering 
compounds due to the bulk of the wort sitting at a higher temp longer
with a counter-flow setup.  During a recent beer tasting held here in
Boulder I got to talk with a brewer from one of the newer micros in
the area (Lonetree, I believe) who is a homebrewer turned pro.  I asked
him about the transition and one of the things he mentioned was having
to adjust his hop schedule because hops added late at the micro actually
ended up being in contact with hot wort for quite some time while it
passed through the heat exchanger etc. and therefore bittering compounds
were extracted and the final beer was more bitter than he had wanted.
I believe his solution was to cut back on late additions of hops.

Hope this helps,
              Corby

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Date: Thu, 28 Oct 93 14:17:53 EDT
From: chuck at synchro.com (Chuck Cox)
Subject: More Beer. Less Tax.

The Libertarian Party of Massachusetts has some cool T-shirts left over
that they made for their booth at the New England Brewers Fall Festival. 

$13 ($10 donation + $3 S&H) gets you an extra large (only) black on
white Hanes Heavyweight 50/50 T-shirt.  It shows the statue of liberty
holding a beer mug with the legend "More Beer.  Less Tax." across the
top in large letters, and "Libertarian Party of Massachusetts" across
the bottom in tiny letters.

Send your check made out to "Libertarian Party of Mass" to:
Lee Nason, LP Mass, 515 Revere Beach Blvd. #808, Revere, MA 02151

- -- 
Chuck Cox   <chuck at synchro.com>
SynchroSystems / Riverside Garage & Brewery - Cambridge, Mass.

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Date: Thu, 28 Oct 93 11:57:52 CDT
From: hplabs!mcdcup!tellabs.com!don
Subject: Re: scraping hops

> Scraping hops from the sides of the kettle...

I always scrape them back in. Even if you use bags 
like I do, some always seem come through the bags. 
If you don't shove them back in you can't expect the 
boil to extract their bitterness.

don



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Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1993 13:59:33 -0600 (MDT)
From: COYOTE <SLK6P at cc.usu.edu>
Subject: IPA/Keg Clarity/Sigs/Distill COPS NOT!

**********************
montgomery_john had an IPA Request.
  
*   no one answered?!  Jeeez, if this ain't one of the most
common types in the Cats Meow don't know what is!  Pale Ales...
A general recipe I've repeated (but never exactly) several times

5 gallon mash
    8 # 2 row pale malt (preferably English malt)
    1.5 # light crystal (20-40L)
BOIL:  1 oz chinook hops (~10 alpha)
        1.5 oz Cascade (or centennial) 4-6 alpha
Finish  1 oz Cascade
A good pale ale yeast.  English brewery maybe.

The key- keep it simple, light, and HOP THE HELL OUT OF IT!
I really like the grassy/flowery bouquet of cascade. Several 
variations in hops can be used, but make it bitter, and add
lots of finishing hops.  If you want extract, Williams english pale
is probably a good one.
************************
 -John Palmer's new sig.line:
>** I think sex is more fun than basketball, too.**
** Fishing can be a tossup, though. **   
***(Depends on which is biting better)***   OUCH!!  " Pain Captain! "

*Makes me think of that look on Picard's face when that Cardacian (sp?)
interogator kept pressing the red button on the remote!  Sorry wrong group!
*************************
Subject: clarifying in a keg

>Have any of you kegger types tried to add clarifiers directly into the
keg and what kind of results/problems can I expect,...

*   I haven't practiced this.  I live in a cloud.  BUT I would
reccommend adding the clarifier to the carboy- let it sediment, then
rack OFF of the sediment.  Excess goop in the bottom of a keg can
keep your beer cloudy- or worse, clog the exit valve. Bad news!   
I would think part of the idea here is to keep sediment OUT of the keg.
*************************
Diane says:
>It is refreshing to know that a woman is allowed to have a sense
of humor, and even more so, <gasp!> to express it. ...snip...I'll try to
come up with an even better .sig.  For the person who was offended, well,
um,  pffffftt!  ;-P  :)  :-I  :-D

*   Well said!  Right-o!  I too think a woman should have the right
to express humor, and experience orgasms as they see fit!  Isn't
it in the constitution somewhere?  ...pursuit of happiness and 
whatnot!  Looking forward to the new sig.  Bound to be a winner!
   
NOTE: THIS coming from the guy who "agrees" with that COPS show. NOT!!!
**************
Mike Fertsch cautions:

>Be VERY careful modifying pressure cookers.  High pressure steam can be
dangerous!  The last thing you need is a hose rupturing, burning
yourself.

*   Oh come-on Mikey.  What worry?  We brewers are immunized from all
harm by the magical virtues imbibed with the beverages we brewed!
Far would it be from me to express or agree with cautions and safeguards!

BUT REALLY:  Good point.  Propane burns can be bad too.  Always wear
shoes when transferring boiling water around.  Ask my left foot!

PUBLIC NOTICE:  I have been accused of agreeing with the show COPS.
Now hold on just a minute there buddy.  Don't put words or anything
but homebrew in my mouth!  I stated (w/o proper proof) that there
"could" be "potential" dangers involved in distilling. Steam can KILL!
for one.  And I've seen some agreement that depending on what's mashed
or added after the fact, harmful items can be included in moonshine.
I'm SURE the government is greedy, and want taxes.  OF course!  BUT...
sometimes there are reasons for laws and regulations.  Just ask
the guy who lit the Altadena fire and DAMNED NEAR burned my parents
house down (neighbors on either side are GONE!) yesterday!
I might never have been able to inherit all those pewter beer steins 
they have and quaff my way to severe brain damage!  

I DO NOT AGREE WITH THE SHOW COPS. I DISAGREE WITH THE WHOLE CONCEPT
OF THE SHOW. Protraying violent/graphic scenes of husbands bashing
wifes with baseball bats and what not (oh that's americas most wanted...)
and invading peoples homes- many of whom turn out to be innocent....
I don't think the show should be on the air. I don't think they have
been fair to the art of homebrewing.  I even think people should have
the right to grow plants if they want to.  
I personally wouldn't reccommend trying distilling at home w/o proper
knowledge and equipment.  I do encourage homebrewing, even of wines!
I wouldn't tell someone how to change a light bulb w/o first cautioning
them to turn OFF the switch FIRST!  Common sense.  Take it as you will.

Now-- off my soapbox...Sorry for any indication of public flaming. I've
seen more than enough flames in the last day to last a lifetime! Tanx CNN

FYI: My cheap dictionary defines DISTILLATION as the process of 
separation by vaporizing then condensing a liquid.  I DON'T think that
Ice beer, or any concentration of that type is considered Distilling,
according to the definition.  That is not to say that it is legal.
I think it is less "potentially hazardous", unless you stick your
tongue to the ice...oooooh that smarts!  And if cops invaded your house
and confiscated your latest zymurgy I don't think they'd bust you
for a bucket of frozen beer they way they'll take you down for your
cooling coil! So...that said. I'll shut up and crawl back in my hole now.

////////////////// Run THAT up you flagpole why dontcha! \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\
~~~~~~~~~~~~John (The Rambling Coyote) Wyllie SLK6P at cc.usu.edu ~~~~~~~~~~
\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\/////////////////////////////////////

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Date: Thu, 28 Oct 93 13:18:00 -0600
From: phil.brushaber at lunatic.metronet.com (Phil Brushaber)
Subject: Dopplebock



I am currently brewing a Dopplebock and am hoping for a final
flavor profile similar to Salvator. I've got a few questions
related to this project and thought you could help me out.

1. How do you get that German super-malty flavor?

My recipe was based pretty much on Miller's suggestion. My
grain bill (for 6.5 gallons) was something like:

4# Alexander's Pale Malt extract
6# American 2-row
3# German Munich
2# American Cara-Pils
2# 70L Crystal Malt

My hopping (7HBU in 5 gals) was exclusively German Hallertau,
and no finishing hops.

Can I expect to get that malty flavor. Or should I have used
some other ingredients?

2. Attenuation of yeast

I used Wyeast Bavarian as my yeast, and used a one gallon starter.
I am told that you can expect about 75% attenuation. Does this refer
to how much of the fermentables it will process regardless of
alcohol in the environment? 75% attenuation would imply that it would
take a 1.040 brew to about 1.010 (I have found this to be true, OK
maybe 1.014). Can I expect this yeast to take my 1.080 start down
to 1.020 (which is where I would like it.)?

3.   Speed of fermentation

This dopplebock is fermenting at 50^F. In five days it has
gone from 1.080 to 1.040, does this seem right? What's your best guess
on how long it will take to get to 1.020? I don't want to get my
expectations too high.

Thanks!


 ... (C) Brushaber Brewing Ltd.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.11

- ----
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
| The Lunatic Fringe BBS * 214-235-5288 * 3 nodes * Richardson, TX * 24 hrs |
| UseNet, ILink, RIME, FIDO, Annex, Intelec, LuciferNet, PlanoNet, and more!|
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Date: Thu, 28 Oct 93 19:21:16 -0700
From: eurquhar at sfu.ca
Subject: "Scotch Ale" by Greg Noonan

        Looked through the new Classic Beer styles book "Scotch Ales by
Greg Noonan".  It seemed good but I was wondering what the collective
opinion of the HBD readers was.  Is it worth buying ?

Eric Urquhart (eurquhar at sfu.ca)
Centre for Pest Management, 
Dept. of Biological Sciences
Simon Fraser University, 
Burnaby , B.C. Canada


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Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1993 17:57:12 -0500
From: Bruce.Feist at f615.n109.z1.fidonet.org (Bruce Feist)
Subject: Homebrew Digest

Andy Kligerman wrote:

h> Subject: homebrew club gone stale! oxidation?

AK> As a member, former vice president and president, and
AK> treasurer of our local homebrew club over the past half
AK> dozen years or so, I have been disappointed in the direction
AK> the club has gone presently.  It has turned into more of a
AK> socializing and drinking club.

I'm half the newsletter editor of BURP (Brewers United for Real Potables), a
Washington DC metro area homebrew club.  We have this problem as well -- if it
is indeed a problem; I'm not completely convinced of that (I'll get back to
this).  Our club is a large one, with around 300 members; we can easily have
over 60 people at any given meeting.  This introduces problems of its own; it
can be difficult trying to do something educational with this many people.

We're constantly experimenting with new things to do.  We've had educational
programs at the meetings (for instance, identification of off flavors via
doctored beers, and culturing yeast), and also competitions both at the meetings
and offline.  The meetings, BTW, are almost all held at members' homes.

There are also other events which don't occur at the meetings, and which may not
be formally associated with the club.  For instance, some of our members
occasionally have private beer tastings at their homes.  Another example:  our
Most Esteemed Minister of Education, the illustrious Rick Garvin (are you
reading this, Rick?), is currently holding a series of classes in beer judging,
which is subsidized by BURP.

Above I indicated that I wasn't sure that the bias during meetings towards
drinking and socializing was such a bad thing.  When viewed in conjunction with
the other activities, it works out well.  The large groups are best suited for
exactly that; for the educational events which are held at meetings, a sub-group
splits out for a while.  That's good because there aren't all that many topics
that would really be appropriate for *everyone*.  Meanwhile, the drinking lets
us know what everyone is brewing, which is interesting, and the socializing can
lead to more offline activities.

Best club I ever joined!

Bruce


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Date: Fri, 29 Oct 1993 01:56:27 -0600 (MDT)
From: J. Michael Diehl <mdiehl at triton.unm.edu>
Subject: Beer drink...

I recall once having a "black and tan."  I just whish I could remember what 
was in it.  It was a dark beer and a light beer floating on each other.  
Wonderfull drink, if I'm remembering it right.  Any one know how to make one?

Lagers,

J. Michael Diehl   ;^)  |*The 2nd Amendment is there in case the 
mdiehl at triton.unm.edu   | Government forgets about the 1st!  <RL>
Mike.Diehl at f29.n301.z1  |*God is a good Physicist, and an even 
    .fidonet.org        | better Mathematician.  <Me>
al945 at cwns9.ins.cwru.edu|*I'm just looking for the opportunity to 
 (505) 299-2282 (voice) | be Politically Incorrect! <Me>
Can we impeach him yet? |*Protected by 18 USC 2511 and 18 USC 2703. 

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Date: Fri, 29 Oct 93 7:49:22 EDT
From: Jim Grady <grady at hpangrt.an.hp.com>
Subject: Re: hops & counterflow

Norm Pyle and Jim Busch have both mentioned that a lot of aromatics can
be lost from hops if they are added at the end of the boil and you use a
counterflow chiller.

I just bought the gadgets special issue of zymurgy.  Kinney Baughman has
an article about building a hop back.  This is to allow the brewer to
add hop aromatics and then immediately chill the wort with a counterflow
chiller.  In this case, the beer is not exposed to air when the oils are
being added to the volatiles cannot escape.  This might be a good
alternative if you want to continue using a counterflow chiller and get
good hop aroma.  I believe Kinney said that this is what Sierra Nevada
does to get the hop aroma in thier beers (I've also heard that they dry
hop).  I'm sorry, I do not have my copy here; Kinney, did I misquote
you?

WARNING!  Once again, I am offering advice from something I read and
have not tried yet!
- --
Jim Grady              |"Root beer burps don't have to be said 'Excuse me'."
grady at hp-mpg.an.hp.com |                Robert Grady, age 4.75

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Date: 	Fri, 29 Oct 1993 05:40:33 PDT
From: John_D._Sullivan.wbst311 at xerox.com
Subject: Re:Beer Shelf Life

>Tom Schwendler asks:Other than filtration or
pasturization, are there ways the homebrewer can increase the shelf life
of bottled beer?
I have noticed quart bottles stay fresh much longer than 12 ozers. I'm not sure
if it's due to less headspace/volume or what.  Whaddaya think?

John

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Date: Fri, 29 Oct 93 7:52:48 MDT
From: npyle at n33.stortek.com
Subject: Hops FAQ, Part 5/5

- --

Q:  What type of hops are available to the homebrewer?  Where are they grown?
What do they taste/smell like?  Who uses them in commercial beers?  How much
bitterness do they contribute?  How do I use them?  What are good substitutes?

A:  The following table lists many common hops available to the homebrewer:

*******************************************************************************
The following hops are generally considered aroma hops although in recent years
they have started to gain a following in the homebrew community for bittering
as well:
*******************************************************************************

Name:         CASCADE
Grown:        US
Profile:      spicy, floral, citrus (esp. grapefruit) aroma
Typical use:  bittering, finishing, dry hopping for American style ales
Example:      Sierra Nevada Pale Ale, Anchor Liberty Ale, Old Foghorn
AA Range:     4.5 - 7%
Substitute:   Centennial

Name:         CRYSTAL (CFJ-HALLERTAU)
Grown:        US
Profile:      mild, pleasant, slightly spicy
Typical use:  aroma/finishing/flavoring
Example:      ???
AA Range:     2 - 5%
Substitute:   Imported Hallertau, Mount Hood, Liberty.

Name:         EAST KENT GOLDINGS
Grown:        UK
Profile:      rounded, pungent aroma
Typical use:  bittering, finishing, dry hopping for British style ales
Example:      Young's Special London Ale, Samuel Smith's Pale Ale
AA Range:     ???
Substitute:   BC Goldings, English Fuggles

Name:         FUGGLES
Grown:        UK, US, and other areas
Profile:      mild, soft, floral aroma
Typical use:  finishing / dry hopping for all ales, dark lagers
Example:      Samuel Smith's Pale Ale, Old Peculiar, Thomas Hardy's Ale
AA Range:     4 - 5.5%
Substitute:   East Kent Goldings, Willamette

Name:         HALLERTAU HERSBRUCKER
Grown:        Germany
Profile:      pleasant, mild aroma
Typical use:  finishing / dry hopping for German style lagers
Example:      ???
AA Range:     3 - 5%
Substitute:   Hallertau Mittelfrueh, Mt. Hood, Liberty, Crystal

Name:         HALLERTAU MITTELFRUEH
Grown:        Germany
Profile:      pleasant, spicy, mild herbal aroma
Typical use:  finishing / dry hopping for German style lagers
Example:      ???
AA Range:     3 - 5%
Substitute:   Hallertau Hersbrucker, Mt. Hood, Liberty, Crystal

Name:         LIBERTY
Grown:        US
Profile:      fine, mild aroma
Typical use:  finishing / dry hopping for German style lagers
Example:      Pete's Wicked Lager
AA Range:     3 - 5%
Substitute:   Hallertau Mittelfrueh, Hallertau Hersbrucker, Mt. Hood, Crystal

Name:         LUBLIN
Grown:        Poland
Profile:      reported to be a substitute for noble varieties.
Typical use:  aroma/finishing
Example:      ???
AA Range:     2 - 4%
Substitute:   Saaz, Hallertau, Tettnanger, Mount Hood, Liberty, Crystal.

Name:         MT. HOOD
Grown:        US
Profile:      mild, clean aroma
Typical use:  finishing / dry hopping for German style lagers
Example:      ???
AA Range:     3.5 - 5.5%
Substitute:   Hallertau Mittelfrueh, Hallertau Hersbrucker, Liberty, Tettnanger

Name:         NORTHERN BREWER
Grown:        UK, US, Germany (called Hallertau NB), and other areas
              (growing region affects profile greatly)
Profile:      fine, fragrant aroma; dry, clean bittering hop
Typical use:  bittering and finishing for a wide variety of beers
Example:      Old Peculiar(UK), Anchor Liberty(US), Anchor Steam(US)
AA Range:     7 - 10%
Substitute:   ???

Name:         SAAZ
Grown:        Czechoslovakia
Profile:      delicate, mild, floral aroma
Typical use:  finishing / dry hopping for Bavarian style lagers
Example:      Pilsener Urquell
AA Range:     3 - 4.5%
Substitute:   None

Name:         SPALT
Grown:        Germany/US
Profile:      mild, pleasant, slightly spicy
Typical use:  aroma/finishing/flavoring
Example:      ???
AA Range:     3 - 6%
Substitute:   Saaz, Tettnanger.

Name:         STRISSELSPALT
Grown:        France -- Alsace area
Profile:      medium intensity, pleasant, similar to Hersbrucker
Typical use:  aroma/finishing
Example:      ???
AA Range:     3 - 5%
Substitute:   Hersbrucker, German Spalt

Name:         STYRIAN GOLDINGS
Grown:        Yugoslavia (Fuggles grown in Yugoslavia), also grown in US
Profile:      similar to Fuggles
Typical use:  bittering, aroma for a wide variety of beers, popular in Europe
Example:      ???
AA Range:     5.5 - 7
Substitute:   Fuggles, Willamette

Name:         TETTNANGER
Grown:        Germany, US
Profile:      fine, very spicy aroma
Typical use:  finishing / dry hopping for German style lagers
Example:      Gulpener Pilsener
AA Range:     4 - 6%
Substitute:   Saaz, Spalt

Name:         WILLAMETTE
Grown:        US
Profile:      mild, spicy, floral aroma
Typical use:  finishing / dry hopping for American / British style ales
Example:      Redhook ESB
AA Range:     4 - 6%
Substitute:   Fuggles

*******************************************************************************
The following hops are generally considered bittering hops:
*******************************************************************************

Name:         BREWER'S GOLD
Grown:        UK, US
Profile:      poor aroma
Typical use:  bittering for ales
Example:      ???
AA Range:     8 - 9%
Substitute:   Bullion

Name:         BULLION
Grown:        UK, US
Profile:      poor aroma
Typical use:  bittering hop for British style ales, perhaps some finishing
Example:      ???
AA Range:     8 - 11%
Substitute:   Brewer's Gold

Name:         CENTENNIAL
Grown:        US
Profile:      spicy, floral aroma, clean bittering hop (Super Cascade?)
Typical use:  general purpose bittering, aroma, some dry hopping
Example:      ???
AA Range:     9 - 11.5%
Substitute:   Cascade

Name:         CHINOOK
Grown:        US
Profile:      heavy spicy aroma, strong bittering hop, astringent in large
              quantities
Typical use:  strong bittering
Example:      ???
AA Range:     12 - 14%
Substitute:   Galena, Eroica, Brewer's Gold, Nugget, Bullion

Name:         CLUSTER
Grown:        US, Australia
Profile:      poor, sharp aroma, clean bittering hop
Typical use:  general purpose bittering (Aussie version used as finishing hop)
Example:      ???
AA Range:     5.5 - 8.5%
Substitute:   Galena, Cascade, Eroica

Name:         EROICA
Grown:        US
Profile:      clean bittering hop
Typical use:  general purpose bittering
Example:      ???
AA Range:     12 - 14%
Substitute:   Northern Brewer, Galena

Name:         GALENA
Grown:        US
Profile:      clean bittering hop
Typical use:  general purpose bittering
Example:      ???
AA Range:     12 - 14%
Substitute:   Northern Brewer, Eroica, Cluster

Name:         NUGGET
Grown:        US
Profile:      heavy, spicy, herbal aroma, strong bittering hop
Typical use:  strong bittering, some aroma uses
Example:      ???
AA Range:     12 - 14
Substitute:   ???

Name:         PERLE
Grown:        Germany, US
Profile:      pleasant aroma, almost minty bittering hop
Typical use:  general purpose bittering for all lagers except pilsener
Example:      ???
AA Range:     7 - 9.5%
Substitute:   ???

Name:         PRIDE OF RINGWOOD
Grown:        Australia
Profile:      citric aroma, clean bittering hop
Typical use:  general purpose bittering
Example:      ???
AA Range:     9 - 11%
Substitute:   ???

- --
******************************************************************************
End, part 5/5
End, Hops FAQ, Rev. 2

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Date: Fri, 29 Oct 1993 10:04:50 -0400 (EDT)
From: Jim Busch <busch at daacdev1.stx.com>
Subject: Re: Jack & the perfect chiller

> From: arf at mcs.com (Jack Schmidling)
> Subject: Chillers
>  
It is unfortunate that those who do not read rec.crafts.brewing missed the 
recent great debate on immersion vs counter-flow chillers.  Kinney Bauman did 
>  an admirable job of defending counter-flow in light of its obvious 
shortcomings and naturally lost to the Lighthouse of Wisdom and Truth.

Not this again!!
>  I won't re-hash the whole argument here but in summary, not a single, 
>  UNARGUABLE advantage could be brought in defense of counter-flow for home 

MY UNARGUABLE ADVANTAGE TO A COUNTERFLOW CHILLER: IT TRANSPORTS MY CAST OUT
WORT FROM MY SUDHAUS TO MY FERMENTATION AREA, WITHOUT RISK OF INFECTION. It
also uses less time and water (for my volume of brewing). By using this 
technique, I can run all kinds of caustics/acids/boiling water through a
permenently installed pipeline, and rinse hot water through, diluting the
bitter wort.

>  homebrewers.  The counter-flow "snobs" are simply wrong on this one.

Thats it, Jack has spoken, I must trash my equipment, send a Easycheck to the
EasySalesman, get a EasyBrewery, and make easily chilled beer.  Boy was I 
stupid to build my own brewery, when Jack had all the answers for me.

>  wort stays hot.  The issue CAN be, how hot?  If it falls below pasturization 
>  temp and is open to the air, there is a risk of contamination.  If it stays 
>  near boiling, it is no worse than extending the boil that amount of time.  
>  And keep in mind that PU simply air cools the wort till it reaches lower 
>  temps.

Probably garbage statements, certainly not a big issue if you have plenty of 
clean healthy yeast to pitch (like PU).
>  
>  To me, the most obvious disadvantage of the counter-flow chiller is that 
most 
>  of what would have stayed behind in the kettle ends up in the fermenter 
>  unless one does an additional settling step.

Where it is scrubbed away during high krausen, and prior to this , is 
actually beneficial to yeast metabolism.

Lets hope this thread is less tiresome than what soft drink mix's with 
which malt beverage.

Good Chilling,
Jim Busch



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Date: Fri, 29 Oct 93 10:29:32 EDT
From: Keith MacNeal 29-Oct-1993 1021 <macneal at pate.enet.dec.com>
Subject: Wit Bier recipe

There was a recent question about a recipe for a Wit Bier.  Given that and the 
nice articles on Belgian Brewing lately I figured I'd post this recipe.  It's 
based on one of Dave Miller's recipes in "Brewing the World's Great Beers" and 
some suggestions from HBD and the Cat's Meow.

It was quite popular with my friends this summer.  The only things I might do
differently next time would be switch the yeast to a Belgian Ale yeast and try
one of the German wheat extracts like the one that comes in a 2 kg can
(actually, since I've made the switch to all grain for my last few batches I'd
go all grain instead of using extract).  The American Eagle Amber DME is very
light -- about as light as most other brands' Light DME.  If you use another
brand, get a light.  The only precaution I took with sanitation and the spices 
was to swab down my mortar and pestle with a bleach solution before crushing 
the coriander in it.  If I remember correctly, the dried orange peel was from 
Spice Islands.

3.3 lbs. Munton & Fison Wheat Malt Extract
2 lbs. American Eagle Amber DME
1 oz. American Hallertau hop pellets (4.3% AA)
1 pkg. Wyeast Labs #1007 German Ale Yeast
1 oz. crushed coriander
= oz. dried orange peel
1 cup corn sugar to prime

OG = 1.038
FG = 1.012

Bring 2 gals. water to boil and add extracts. Add 2/3 oz. hops when it returns 
to boil and boil for 45 minutes.  Add remaining 1/3 oz. hops and boil 15 
minutes.  Cool and strain into 3 gals. cold water in primary.  Pitch yeast and 
ferment at 65-680F for about 1 week.  Add coriander and orange peel to 
secondary and rack beer on top (either use a 6 gal. secondary or put a blowoff 
tube on it -- I clogged the airlock a couple of times before finally putting a 
blowoff tube on it).

I bottled mine after 10 days in the secondary.  The beer came out light in 
body and color.  The carbonation, light body, and citrusy flavors from the 
spices made for a nice light, refreshing brew.  I don't know how it stacks up 
to commercial brews of this type since I haven't had an opportunity to taste 
any.

Enjoy,

Keith MacNeal
Digital Equipment Corp.
Hudson, MA

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Date: Fri, 29 Oct 93 10:38:19 -0400
From: lincecum at med-biochem.bu.edu
Subject: Advantages of ascorbic acid?

I have been reading the forum for several weeks now and am impressed
with the depth of experience and willingness to help fellow homebrewers
with their questions.

I have just brewed my first all-grain barley wine and will be aging it
for several months.  Unlike most of my beers which get sucked down by
my thirsty friends as soon as they are carbonated I am a little
concerned about long term oxidation problems with the barley wine.

Will the addition of ascorbic acid (vitamin C) at bottling time improve
the longeviety of the beer?  Also what are the general advantages and
disadvantages of ascorbic acid addition?  Much thanks.

John Lincecum
lincecum at med-biochem.bu.edu

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Date: Fri, 29 Oct 93 11:00:40 EDT
From: Spencer.W.Thomas at med.umich.edu
Subject: CF Chiller Effects on Hop Character

All this discussion sounds like a good argument for a hop-back.

=S

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Date: Fri, 29 Oct 93 11:14:41 EDT
From: pavao at ptsws1 (John D. Pavao)
Subject: THE NEW ENGLAND BEER CLUB

Hi,
     Is the NEW ENGLAND BEER CLUB list still active?  If so, could someone
please send me the address to use when requesting a subscription.
Thanks.

John
pavao at ptsws1.npt.nuwc.navy.mil

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Date: Fri, 29 Oct 93 09:53:25 -0700
From: Drew Lynch <drew at chronologic.com>
Subject: Re: Chillers 

>>>>> On Tue, 26 Oct 93 12:20 CDT, arf at mcs.com (Jack Schmidling) said:

	Jack>  I won't re-hash the whole argument here but in summary,
	Jack> not a single, UNARGUABLE advantage could be brought in
	Jack> defense of counter-flow for home brewers and most of the

Jack, I'm quite sure that in your case there is _no_such_thing_ as an
UNARGUABLE _anything_ :-)

	Jack>  So, I hereby challange the counter-flowers to start
	Jack> your engines....

Silent long enough I guess....

  I would love to have stayed with my immersion chiller.  It is easier
to sanitize, use and store.  The problem is that it simply did not
work well enough.  My tap water is barely below desired pitching
temperatures most of the year.  As long as the temperature
differential between the wort and water is high, immersion chillers
work great.  As that differential decreases, the advantage goes to CF
chillers. 

  The bottom line here (at least for me) is water conservation.
My 50' immersion chiller used in excess of 30 gallons of water to
chill a 5 gallon batch of boiling wort, and my pump driven 40' CF
chiller uses less than half that, _and_ gets the wort colder.  As a
side benefit, I finally get the cornflake sized cold break that I
_never_ witnessed before.

  Also, remember, we all brew a little differently. What is ideal for
one persons style is useless for another.  I cannot think of one thing
I could change in my brewery that would not demand some other
compensating change.  Every method has advantages and drawbacks, and
each brewer must make his or her own choices.

			      Drew Lynch
		Chronologic Simulation, Los Altos, Ca.
			   (415)965-3312x18
			 drew at chronologic.com

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End of HOMEBREW Digest #1261, 11/02/93