FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Rob Gardner, Digest Coordinator


Contents:
  Growing Hops (Michael Inglis)
  Steam/Labels&Coaster/alpha test?/Sheer Carboys (COYOTE)
  Beer Shelf Life (Peter Maxwell)
  Budweiser & Adjuncts (Ed Falk)
  Questions (Ed Oriordan)
  Pilsner extract ("Anderso_A")
  Hunter Airstats (Mark Garetz)
  Grinding Wheat / Chillers (npyle)
  Blindness, Yeast, Polyethelene (Jack Schmidling)
  Freezing Wort (Phil Brushaber)
  Beer Drinks (Rick Anderson)
  Bread from mash recipe request (ed fromohio)
  Re: Plans for Grain Mill (Dion Hollenbeck)
  RIMS sparge techniques (Dion Hollenbeck)
  RIMS sparge techniques (Dion Hollenbeck)
  An arguable defense of CF chillers (Kinney Baughman)
  Re: steam (Jack Thompson)
  RE: Short spigot on Gott (Jonathan Labaree)
  Re: Hops FAQ (Jim Busch)
  Spruce beer (Laura Conrad)
  Spruce beer (Laura Conrad)
  Brew Ha Ha's 5 liter mini keg system (montanoa)
  More on steam injection SAFETY! (Kelly Jones)
  Re: Plans for Grain Mill (npyle)


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----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 29 Oct 93 10:57:21 PDT
From: mri10 at mfg.amdahl.com (Michael Inglis)
Subject: Growing Hops

I would very much like to grow my own hops this next season 
but I have a slight problem.  I live in a Condo without a 
back yard but I have a very large porch that has access to
plent of sunlight (my other plants are very happy :).  If I 
was to grow hops, it would have to be from some sort of planter 
box.  I would have plenty of room to set up a vine path that 
would be adequate but my concern is the planting.  Will planting 
the rhizomes in a planter box work?  Has anyone else done
this successfully?  
	Also, I brewed an all extract beer several weeks ago
(my third attempt at an SNPA clone) and the OG was 1.030!
(my local homebrew store packaged DME in 3 lb. bags and when
I actually weighed them they came out to about 2 lbs. 10oz :()
Guess where I'm not going anymore for my supplies?  Anyway
my FG after two weeks was 1.016!!  I was a little scared as
I'd never seen such a low gravity loss but I bottled anyway.
What I have now is IMHO an excellent ale that has a pronounced
buttery taste and goes down like water.  The sweetness with a
fairly aggressive hop bitterness combined to make a flavor that
I never expected and it's great.  Just goes to show that even an
apparent disaster can come out smelling roses (figuratively of
course).  Anyone else had horror stories that have come out to
be a surprisingly good brew?

Mike Inglis
mri10 at mfg.amdahl.com

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Date: Fri, 29 Oct 1993 12:00:47 -0600 (MDT)
From: COYOTE <SLK6P at cc.usu.edu>
Subject: Steam/Labels&Coaster/alpha test?/Sheer Carboys

***********************
Best Jim Busch commented on the idea of steam sterilization
with a pressure cooker:

    "Sounds dangerous to me.  How do you know when it is empty?"

*   No more steam.  Simple.  
*   How does a melting pressure cooker and stovetop smell?
*   I've seen what a teakettle can do to a stovetop. Not a pretty sight!
***********************
John Adams said:
>Personally I make my own labels using a graphics editor, a ray-tracer,
a good collection of gif/jpeg "clip art" of beer labels, and a color printer.
*   Sound nifty.  I'd love to see 'em. Are those beer labels YOU 
scanned? Or is there a commercial source, or disk copy others can obtain?

>I would also like to find an outfit that produces custom beer coasters.
*   Here's a couple- from an old issue of American Brewer (summer '92)

    American Coaster Co., 527 Wheatfield St.,P.P. Box 710
    North Tonawanda, NY. 14120 (716) 693-6540

NOTE: These fellers are directed at BREWERIES- Bulk orders of 10,000.
I just saw it in a magazine, and besides all my cousins work there (NOT!)

    ADMAT Coasters Johnson city Tennessee, 
    Phone (615) 434-2373    Fax (615) 434-2210

There's even a place which does taps! I might have to look into that one!

Labels? Creative Labels 7413 Pulaski Hwy, Baltimore Maryland 21237
        Phone (301) 866-4700    FAX (310) 866-5672

I hope I'm not being too commercial. I always get a flood of e-mail
when I mention these kinds of sources, so I'm shortcutting this time.
***********************
*   Random Comments on Comments... (just a little bw....pain cave?)
> With 3 cats  in the house, rodents are not my concern :-) 
but they could get into that bag with no problem at all.
*If you fed the cats more often you might not have them stealing grain!

>put on the lid and throw in some hops. 
*Better reverse that.

"Skip and go naked" sounds like a fun name for a drink. But it sounds
like a spruced up SHANDY.  Coors/Lemonaid/Whiskey.  Hmmm.  Skip the board
games.  Play naked twister with vegetable oil!
***********************
Mark said:

> You can at least get a sense of the aroma potential of your
homegrown hops by using your nose, but there's really no practical way
to know how much alpha acid is in there (without a lab analysis). 

*   Oh yeah. Nothing like cutting them in half and rubbing your
nose and fingers in it.  sticky sticky.  Smells like fresh buds!
Has there been a practical way of testing developed for the homebrewer?
I know you can send them off...but I'll save my money and guesstimate.

Arf...you were trying to come up with a pH test weren't you?
Didn't you say something about a colorimetric test?  Any luck w/it?   
***********************
anthony johnston cried about a broken carboy:
>I am sure that most of these precautions are obvious and well-known and
the others may seem like overkill, but after seeing the results of a
broken carboy...waaaaaaaaaaaaaah.
*   Don't be cautious. Someone might pounce you. Remember homebrew makes 
you immune!  KOH would simply run off you skin since you're filled w/EtOH!
*   No really....good advise. How big was the carboy?  Did you shift temps
drastically and suddenly?  Was it scratched?  
I once had a 1 gallon EtOH bottle (brown...nice!) that was full of cold
spiced cider- happily fermented out- awaiting bottling. (~45-50 deg)
I had splashed hot water on a barstool from bottle washing, then 
placed the jug on the stool.  Just a little bit of hot water was enough
to cleanly sheer the bottom from the rest of the bottle. I was able to 
rack the precious fluid out before moving the bottle.  There must have
been an adequate temp differential to shock the glass. I was blessed 
by the grace of my brew lord for the survival!  One bottle remains. 
Ithink I'll have to celebrate halloween w/it! Pumpkin brew too!'course.
BTW I still have the top of the bottle. Could make a good funnel.

Also: The one batch (in my early days) of beer which became explosive 
(scary experience, ~~SHUDDDER~~) I had one bottle which broke/blew 
exactly the same way. The bottom sheered off cleanly. The top shot up 
into my underarm!  At least it didn't shatter like the one in my car! 
(no one was in it at the time.  Good thing.)
The point here...The connection between sides and bottom is a stress 
point for bottles.  Thin to thick glass is my guess.  Be wary!

/************************ Hoppy Halloween ************************\
~~~~~~~~~~~~ John (the Coyote) Wyllie SLK6P at cc.usu.edu ~~~~~~~~~~~~
\*****  Dress up as John Barleycorn for the hallowed eve!  *******/
      ------------------ Live On BarleyMan! ---------------

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Date: Fri, 29 Oct 1993 11:39:07 -0700 (PDT)
From: Peter Maxwell <peterm at aoraki.dtc.hp.com>
Subject: Beer Shelf Life

Tom Schwendler asks about shelf life.  3 months life sounds ridiculous to me
unless there is something wrong with the beer.  Award-winning beers are
frequently 6 months old when judged.  From my own experience I am drinking a
beer that I made 12 months ago and it's superb: better than fresh when it
was a little harsh.  Most of my brews end up being 6 months old by the time
the last bottle is drunk and none have shown any sign of going off.

	Peter

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Date: Fri, 29 Oct 93 12:16:39 PDT
From: Ed.Falk at Eng.Sun.COM (Ed Falk)
Subject: Budweiser & Adjuncts


I heard a Budweiser ad on the radio the other day that really
made my hair curl.  The were BRAGGING about how they added rice
to the beer.  They also mentioned barley as an afterthought.

I worry about the future.

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Date: Fri, 29 Oct 93 15:52:26 -0400
From: edo at marcam.com (Ed Oriordan)
Subject: Questions

Did my first all grain last weekend.  Everything went well, but now I have
two questions. One on sparging the other on grain.

Sparging -
What is the best way to sparge. Should you?
1) Completely drain the bed, then sparge in one of the following ways?
2) Just match the additions to the drainings?
3) Sprinkle in all the water at once?
4) Others.

I have a feeling that 2 and 3 are going to be a tie.  What's the difference
besides my effort.  As I see it all the water goes through the bed either
way, and if you can maintain the temp why not do 3?  Maybe, more weight
so compacted filter bed?  What about 1? On one hand I would fear compacting
the filter bed, but on the other hand I would be getting the first drawings
that I would assume would be extract rich.  I used a rectangular cooler and
slotted pipe manifold(fantastic tool), so I am not real worried about a
stuck sparge, but I would think clarity could be a problem.  Also method 1
would cause more shifting in the grain bed, perhaps more astringiency?

For a 5 gallon batch I drained off 1 gallon of wort and recirculated this
because it was cloudy.  Was this correct? I ended up with clearer wort,
but I am assuming that the first drawings contain the most extract, which
I then poured on the top of the bed, and now it has to be washed through
the entire bed and out again.

Grain -

As a full mash novice I want to stay with simple infusion mashes for
a while.  What kind of grain does this mean I am restricted to.
I used Pale (2-row english).  The day after I went to another
brew store and they had two Pales(2-row from Germany and from America).
Pale is Pale???  The grain from the second brew store had a lot less
flour already mixed in (i.e. if you dropped a handfull of the english
Pale you saw some flour dust) and appeared to be good clean grain.
Will it be as modified as the english Pale? Is it an oversimplification
to say Pale == you can do an infusion?  I was reading Miller last
night and he explains the difference between Pale, Mild, Vienna, Munich,
Lager, Klages etc.. But what I want to know is, what can I infusion mash
as a base grain for recipe (obviously not specialty grains and adjuncts).
Pale is Pale??? No adjuncts used currently, so I don't need extra enzymes.
Describe how to tell if grain is good? Miller goes into it some (or was it 
Noonan?), but what do you look for?

If you are gonna answer my questions I would love to hear how you do it,
and especially why you do it this way and not this way.  I don't
want to just follow recipes or steps, I would like to know why I am going
to do something.

Fun, fun, fun.  If you are contemplating trying all grain, I would recomend
a cajun cooker burner and a slotted copper pipe manifold system.  They made
the job a LOT easier.  Also if you live near a drag-strip, you can slap that
cajun cooker on the back of your car and campaign it as a jet dragster.
NASA called and said the crew of the space shuttle saw it.  Man, is that thing
powerful!!!  Comes with a nifty recipe for a deep fried turkey (is it just me
or does the thought of deep frying a whole turkey sound odd?).

Thanks

Ed O'

edo at marcam.com


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Date: 29 Oct 93 15:07:00 EST
From: "Anderso_A" <Anderso_A at hq.navsea.navy.mil>
Subject: Pilsner extract

The following attachments were included with this message:
__________________________________________________________________
TYPE     : FILE
NAME     : PIL
__________________________________________________________________


            Greetings,
                 A few friends and I will be running an experiment in
            recipe formulation where we are trying to match a style with
            extract brewing as well as all-grain.  The problem: the
            all-grain version will require pilsner malt and the extracts
            I've been able to find (DME & LME [No, not Male extract])
            are all based on Pale Malt.  Does anyone out there in
            HBD-land know of Pilsner Malt extracts that are Unhopped and
            (hopefully) no adjuncts?

            TIA,
            Andy A




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Date: Fri, 29 Oct 93 20:52:57 PDT
From: Mark Garetz <mgaretz at hoptech.com>
Subject: Hunter Airstats

Thanks to an alert by Kieran O'Connor, I have confirmed that the Hunter
Airstat is no longer being produced and there are no plans for a
replacement product.

For those that don't know, the Hunter Airstat is a reasonably priced "line
voltage thermostat" that was originally designed to add thermostatic
control to a room air conditioner.  Homebrewers, however, have been using
it to control refrigerators/freezers.

The Hunter was unique in it's price range featuring a remote sensor and
digital setpoint and temperature readouts.  Homebrew suppliers are selling
them for $30 to $40, and hardware superstores (such as Home Depot) had
them as low as $19.50.  The main disadvantage of the Hunter was that it
only went down to 40 degrees F, not considered low enough by lager
afficianados.  But it could be easily modified to go lower, and
instructions have been published in this digest.

Homebrew rumor had it that the Hunter has been discontinued due to a lack
of reliability.  Hunter denies this and claims lack of sales is the sole
reason.

Hunter has no more inventory on this item, but some inventory does exist
in hardware stores, and I would bet even more is still in stock at
homebrew shops.  The reason for this post is that if you were thinking of
getting a temperature controller someday, or like me are a happy user of
an Airstat and want a "backup" or two, now is the time to buy.  Armed with
the info that they have been discontinued, you may be able to get an even
better price on any remaining inventory, at least from a hardware store. 
I went down to my local Home Depot and bought their remaining two units at
$15 each (one had no packaging and the other's package was pretty beat up).

Some enterprising homebrew supplier might want to contact Hunter about
picking up the manufacturing rights and making them again (and possibly
modifying the software to allow 30 F operation).  Hunter is in Memphis, TN.

Note that you don't have to panic.  There *are* alternatives.  Williams
Brewing in San Leandro sells a Penn line voltage thermostat that has been
modified specifically for Williams, but Penn has "standard" models that
will also work.  WW Graingers has a few pages of these, of which a few are
suitable for our needs and not too expensive.  Most will need to have a
line cord added.  You can also check local heating/air conditioning parts
suppliers.  What you want is a "line voltage thermostat" that is designed
for either "cooling only" or "heating/cooling"  (the key words are the
switch contacts "close on rise").  Sometimes they are listed as SPDT,
which means single pole double throw and is a technical way of saying they
work for heating or cooling.  The switch contacts need to be rated high
enough for your fridge (usually this is not a problem).  And the
temperature range needs to be right.  You also want a "remote bulb" or
"remote sensor" unit.  A "snap action" or "bimetallic" thermostat would
need to be entirely mounted inside the fridge, not very practical. 
Lastly, make sure the "differential" is in the 4 degree range or
adjustable to it.  You don't want one with a 25 degree fixed differential.

Disclaimer:  I have no affiliation with Hunter, nor do I sell temperature
controllers of any kind.  I just think that for the price, it was a great
deal, and I really like having the digital temperature readout on my keg
fridge.  And no, none of my "spares" are for sale, so don't ask.

Mark


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Date: Fri, 29 Oct 93 8:49:30 MDT
From: npyle at n33.stortek.com
Subject: Grinding Wheat / Chillers

Robert Schultz writes:
>   I attempted Phil Seitz's  Beligian White Ale on the weekend.  I now
know what Phil meant by grinding 5 lbs of wheat on a Corona.
>   How do the roller mills perform on the hard unmalted grains (wheat, rye,
rice)?  Barley and oats are fairly soft.

My homemade roller mill works fine crushing hard stuff like wheat.  I use a
special (simple) modification to my mill when I crush wheat.  The mod is two
blocks of wood which restrict the amount of feed onto the rollers.  It allows
the rollers to crush less grain at any instant.  For example, if the rollers
are 8" long, this takes the working length down to about 5", so only 5" of the
rollers have grain between them at a time.  Without this mod, crushing wheat
causes the motor to stop (and this is a washing machine motor!).  Wheat is
indeed a tougher nut to crack than barley.

**

JS comments about immersion vs. CF chillers:
>The counter-flow "snobs" are simply wrong on this one.
(and other similar comments)

Jack, this is abrasive and counter-productive at best; its out and out flame
bait at worst.  The HBD will now be tied up with tons of inane arguing at a
time when 3 day turn around times are commonplace.  You were the one griping
about the yeast FAQ because you couldn't get a quick turnaround from the HBD.
This will tie up the HBD for much longer than one FAQ.

I brought up this subject for serious discussion, not flame wars.  I appreciate
your well thought out comments regarding versatility of the immersion chiller,
but I would have appreciated more if you had tempered your comments to a civil
level.  Do you talk this way in person?

One of the great advantages of CF chilling is efficiency of the water used.
Has anyone out there measured your cooling water?  It took me over 30 gallons
of cooling water with my immersion chiller, less than half that with my CF
chiller.  That's 6 times the volume of the beer just to cool it with the
immersion chiller!  This is a big reason I like CF chilling.  Combining this
with other water conservation methods can amount to a considerable water
savings in one brewing session.  I'm not claiming one method beats the hell out
of the other, just that there are pros and cons.  You have to pick your poison.

norm

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Date: Sat, 30 Oct 93 23:32 CDT
From: arf at mcs.com (Jack Schmidling)
Subject: Blindness, Yeast, Polyethelene

 
 >From: mikel at netlink.nix.com (Mike Lemons)
 
 >Somebody doesn't realize that methyl alcohol was intentionally added to
 "bathtub gin" during prohibition to increase its intoxicating ability.
 Poisonous, but it will get you drunk.
 
 >The gorvernment arrests people who operate a still because they want
 their alcohol taxes.  If they tell you that they do it for your
 protection, just remember that they told Indians the same thing when
 they took their land.
 
 Well put.  Just because methanol boils off when distilling, does not mean 
 there is any to boil off in the mash.  For a simple example, ponder making 
 brandy....  You start out with a nice drinkable wine and distill it to leave 
 most of the water behind.  If there were enough methanol to cause blindness 
 in the distillate, you wouldn't want to drink the wine in the first place.  
 The same thing applies to whiskey mash.  Methanol comes from petroleum or 
 from distilling trees.  That's why it's called wood alcohol.  If you put 
 trees in your wine, you might be in trouble.
 
 The industrial world needs grain alcohol but has enough clout to avoid paying 
 taxes on it.  To keep everyone honest, Big Brother mandates that a certain 
 amount of methanol is added to industrial ethanol to make it undrinkable.  
 The bad guys put this stuff in booz because it is cheap and people got sick 
 and might have gone blind. 
 
 There is nothing you can do to a still full of wine to make it produce 
 dangerous quantities of methanol and you can consider a kettle full of 
 whiskey mash just a very new "wine" for the sake of this discussion.
 ................
 
 Sorry but I lost the source line (bb Brian Bliss?) for the following..
 
 >Subject: wyeast/spruce/distillation temps/and more...
 
 >6) I still buy wyeast and try to use it for those batches which require
   a special flavor from the yeast.  I wish there were an alternative...
   It would not take that much more work to provide us with a packaging
   that has a larger yeast population developed before you open it.
 
 There is an alternative and its called culturing.  However, it's sort of like 
 all grain brewing, viz., sounds real spooky till you try it.  Not only does 
 it save big bucks but it becomes as much of an obsession as brewing itself.  
 You can do it in the kitchen in simple stuff or a lab full of equipment.  The 
 bottom line is, yeast is free, it's clean and you can produce any population 
 you feel is needed.  Check out the archives for my article on Culturing for 
 Beginners.
 ...........
 
  Not sure where this one ends and Jim Busch's begins but this is his..
 
 >From: arf at mcs.com (Jack Schmidling)
 
 <I am using Low Density Polyethylene tubing for transferring wort.  It is FDA
 approved and has a temp range of -70 to 120F and it handles sweet wort temp
 just fine.
 
 >I can assure you that my sweet wort is above 120F, so I wonder the widom of
 using 120F rated tubing in this manner.  I use a cut off plastic turkey 
 baster.
 
 As I was unable to find a 20 foot turkey baster, I had to take drastic 
 measures.
 
 I cited the specification for the record and then pointed out that it works 
 fine at "sweet wort temp" and presumed we all knew what that meant.  The 
 specification is obviously very conservative.
 
 Furthermore, I would be interested in knowing just what your sweet wort temp 
 is as it flows through the tubing.  I suspect it is a lot cooler than you 
 think.   By the time mine gets down to the kettle, it probably is around 
 there somewhere.  The copper tubing at the end is to protect it from the 
 boiling wort not the stuff coming down from the kitchen.
 
 >From: Robert Schultz <Robert.Schultz at usask.ca>
 >Subject: milling red hard spring wheat
 
 > I attempted Phil Seitz's  Beligian White Ale on the weekend.  I now
 know what Phil meant by grinding 5 lbs of wheat on a Corona.
  
 > How do the roller mills perform on the hard unmalted grains (wheat, rye,
 rice)?  Barley and oats are fairly soft.
 
 I could swear I just answered this but it also appeared in Ulich Stafford's 
 comments on his new mm.
 
 Malted grain is friable and crumbly.  When gently squeezed, it falls apart, 
 exposing the malt to mash water.  This is definitely not true of unmalted 
 grains.  If you have the strength to run it through a roller mill, the best 
 you will get is something like thick oatmeal.  As there usually is no husk 
 involved, there is little advantage to a roller mill over a grinder.  I 
 suspect, a Corona me be more efficient if your lauter tun can handle the fine 
 grinst.  That is, after all what they were designed for but it won't be any 
 easier to crank.
 
 js
 

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Date: Sat, 30 Oct 93 19:04:00 -0600
From: phil.brushaber at lunatic.metronet.com (Phil Brushaber)
Subject: Freezing Wort



Do you see any problem with freezing homemade wort (extract)?

Next weekend I am going to make another try at a Dopplebock. (This
time with German Pilsner grain as the base, not 2-row in my
quest for that malty sweet German flavor).

My lauter tun can not handle more than about 12-13 lbs of grain at
a time. So this weekend I mashed 10 lbs. of German Pilsner. Boiled
it down to about 3 gallons, put it in a 4 gallon kettle, covered
the kettle and stuck it in the deep freeze.

I suppose there are more convenient alternatives to making your own
extract, but I wanted all-german grain.

My plan next weekend is to mash the remaining 13 lbs of grain I will
need to make this Dopplebock, thaw the "extract" and add it to the
boil.

Anyone see any problems with this proceedure. (Other than spending
an extra brewday mashing grain?

- ----
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
| The Lunatic Fringe BBS * 214-235-5288 * 3 nodes * Richardson, TX * 24 hrs |
| UseNet, ILink, RIME, FIDO, Annex, Intelec, LuciferNet, PlanoNet, and more!|
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Date: Sun, 31 Oct 93 11:38:21 CST
From: odie at cattle.mn.org (Rick Anderson)
Subject: Beer Drinks

Here's another beer drink to add to the list
1 oz of vodka
1 oz Southern Comfort
2 oz 7-up
1 oz sweet & sour mix
1/4 oz grenadine
2 cups of crushed ice.   Blend all of the above in a blender till it 
resembles a slush. Pour into a 20-24 oz glass. Fill the remainder of the 
glass with your favorite beer. The drink was introduced to me as a 
Combat.  Its a good one. 

Rick Anderson


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Date: Fri, 29 Oct 1993 23:13:33 -0400 (EDT)
From: ed fromohio <NEGATIVE3 at unh.edu>
Subject: Bread from mash recipe request

HI, I was wondering if anyone has a recipe or idea for bread from the
spent mash....

any help would be most appreciated,
thanks,
 -chris (dcm at kepler.unh.edu)

P.S. feels good to be back on the net again after a year or so....

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Date: Sun, 31 Oct 93 13:39:29 PST
From: megatek!hollen at uunet.UU.NET (Dion Hollenbeck)
Subject: Re: Plans for Grain Mill

>>>>> "matth" == matth  <matth at bedford.progress.COM> writes:

matth> Dion Hollenbeck writes:

matth> [ SNIP of many questions regarding tool availability & time &
matth> materials ]
>>  Bottom line, you may be able to make any commercial product for
>> much less than it is sold for if you ignore everything but the cost
>> of the materials.  On top of that, you are not trying to make a
>> living out of it.  If you really figure *everything* in, I would
>> doubt you could beat the retail price by much if any at all since
>> anyone who intends to remain in business will be buying in volume
>> and getting prices on raw materials which you could never come
>> close to at onesey prices.

matth>   Can you tell me why you brew beer then?  Few people I've ever
matth> ,et who brew & keep purchasing *any* kind of equipment ever
matth> reach the level where the money they have spent on the brewing
matth> tools/materials makes it cost effective over the long run
matth> compared to just purchasing commercially available brews, even
matth> micro-brews.

I brew beer, not because it is cheaper, but because I can make
*exactly * the beer I want to and I will be moving to the boonies soon
and wanted to not be dependent on specialty liquor stores or
microbreweries within 10 min of my house here in urban America.

>>  If you enjoy building things, by all means, you have my
>> whole-hearted support to go ahead.  I even wish you the good
>> fortune to improve upon Jack's mill or any other brewing product
>> for the betterment of all of us brewers.  But, please do not make
>> light of the effort that goes into producing the great products
>> which are being offered to us.  Knowing what it takes to produce
>> these, I am quite satisfied that we as home-brewers are getting
>> fair value for our money frome the vast majority of brewing
>> equipment manufacturers.
>> 
>> Steve, I do not mean to single you out, this thread has popped up
>> so many times, I just took the opportunity of your post to reply to
>> a topic which has been bugging me for a long time.
>> 

matth>   I haven't gotten the impression that anyone has made light of
matth> the effort Jack or anyone else has put into producing effectvie
matth> roller mills designs.  I've seen & used a MM at one of the HB
matth> shops I get supplies from.  Jack did a good job on it.  Most of
matth> the reviews I have seen have been pretty close to the mark
matth> regarding usability of the device.  It gives a great crush but
matth> as many people have indicated the design could be improved upon
matth> some.

I feel that Steve made light of Jack's efforts because he complained
about the cost and said right after that he could do a good without
much effort (this is a paraphrase).  A lot of other people complain
about the retail prices of equipment like Jack's and state that they
could do as good for a lot less.  I was just pointing out why retail
prices are generally extremely fair and what really goes into making a
product, rather than a one-off copy of someone's design.  If you make
it yourself and it does not last or does not work quite up to snuff,
then you generally don't complain.  Jack and other inventors have to
make a product which works well and lasts, which most of them do.

Dion Hollenbeck (619)455-5590x2814     Email: hollen at megatek.com
Senior Software Engineer                      megatek!hollen at uunet.uu.net
Megatek Corporation, San Diego, California    ucsd!megatek!hollen

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Date: Sun, 31 Oct 93 13:47:44 PST
From: megatek!hollen at uunet.UU.NET (Dion Hollenbeck)
Subject: RIMS sparge techniques

I just did a trial mash in my RIMS system using manual temp control by
turning the heater on and off by hand.  When finished, I did the
sparge, but because of the speed of my pump, it only lasted about 10
min.  I can't control the rate of sparge by only introducing sparge
water slowly because the pump does not do well with pumping dry and it
does not go down to extremely slow either.  I have heard of adding all
the sparge water at once and recirculating for 30 minutes and then
just pumping the resulting wort on out.

Any other ideas.  My extraction rate was a rather poor 22 points per
pound per gallon from domestic 2 row, if I go by Dave Miller's rate of
35 ppg.  Residual grain was slightly sweet after sparge completed.

Thanks for the help.


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Date: Sun, 31 Oct 93 13:48:13 PST
From: megatek!hollen at uunet.UU.NET (Dion Hollenbeck)
Subject: RIMS sparge techniques

I just did a trial mash in my RIMS system using manual temp control by
turning the heater on and off by hand.  When finished, I did the
sparge, but because of the speed of my pump, it only lasted about 10
min.  I can't control the rate of sparge by only introducing sparge
water slowly because the pump does not do well with pumping dry and it
does not go down to extremely slow either.  I have heard of adding all
the sparge water at once and recirculating for 30 minutes and then
just pumping the resulting wort on out.

Any other ideas.  My extraction rate was a rather poor 22 points per
pound per gallon from domestic 2 row, if I go by Dave Miller's rate of
35 ppg.  Residual grain was slightly sweet after sparge completed.

Thanks for the help.


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Date: Sun, 31 Oct 1993 21:34:31 -0400 (EDT)
From: Kinney Baughman <BAUGHMANKR at conrad.appstate.edu>
Subject: An arguable defense of CF chillers

 Jack sez:

> It is unfortunate that those who do not read rec.crafts.brewing missed the
> recent great debate on immersion vs counter-flow chillers.  Kinney Bauman did
> an admirable job of defending counter-flow in light of its obvious
> shortcomings and naturally lost to the Lighthouse of Wisdom and Truth.

To which I must add: Jack, you're a legend in your own mind.

> I won't re-hash the whole argument here but in summary, not a single,
> UNARGUABLE advantage could be brought in defense of counter-flow for home
> brewers and most of the good reasons are only valid in large scale brewing.
> The only advantage to homebrewers was the OPINION that chilling faster made
> for clearer beer but no one had come up with any documentation to prove the
> point.

Oh, I might point out that you can immediately start siphoning into 
the fermenter without waiting on the immersion chiller to chill the 
wort and THEN siphoning into the fermenter.  But who cares about 
saving time?

Moreover, after we all agree on the importance of sanitation, good 
recipes, good ingredients, and decent equipment, pray tell what ISN'T 
arguable in homebrewing?!  Isn't that why we love this hobby?  Because 
of its diversity?  

> Now, ponder the possibilities this allows.  You have an infinite number of
> post boil hopping schedules that you can play with.  For example, shut off
> the heat, put on the lid and throw in some hops.  This hops is at near boil
> temp which kills that herbal taste but the vapor and aroma can not escape.
> When you chill it down, the vapor and aroma are re-absorbed by the wort.

Re-absorbed by the wort, huh?  I'm sure you can pull the documentation 
out on that one, can't you, Jack?  And while we're pondering 
possiblities, ponder the reality of having the hop aroma absorbed 
directly into the wort with a nice little hopback hooked inline 
between your kettle and CF wort chiller.  Works great for me at home 
and my little brewpub in town. 

All this is not to say that a well-designed immersion chiller won't 
function fine when used properly.  But "not one unarguable advantage 
(can) be brought in defense of counter-flow for home brewers"?!  Come 
now, Jack.  Methinks you've been dipping into your homebrew a wee much 
this evening.

Cheers to one and all!

 ___ ----------------------------------------------------------- ___
|   |                   Kinney Baughman                         |   |
|   |            baughmankr at conrad.appstate.edu                 |   |
 \ /                                                             \ /
  |        "Beer is my business and I'm late for work"            |
   ---------------------------------------------------------------


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Date: Sun, 31 Oct 1993 23:34:23 -0800 (PST)
From: Jack Thompson <jct at reed.edu>
Subject: Re: steam

When I was in the US Navy, during the 1960's I was told that the
difference between a fairy tale and a sea story was that a fairy tale
begins: "Once upon a time..." and a sea tale begins: "This ain't no shit...."

As an electrician, I had occassion to spend a few hours, now and again, in
the engine room, where electricity was manufactured by steam turbines.  It
was hot and noisy there, but one learned to read sounds.  A pin hole leak
in a live steam line has a special sound.  Once heard, it is indelible. 
One stops moving.  In the fullness of time, a person will reach out for a
broomstick and begin looking for the source of the leak by passing the
broomstick over and around the steam lines.  When the broom stick is cut
in half, the live, pinhole steam leak has been found.  

Live steam is a very useful tool, but one which must be brought into play
with caution and understanding.

This ain't no shit.

Jack C. Thompson
who thinks orgasms are fine



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Date: Mon, 1 Nov 93 05:32:59 PST
From: Jonathan Labaree <jonlab at igc.apc.org>
Subject: RE: Short spigot on Gott

Sandy Cockerham in HB 1260 asks about a too-
short spigot on a Gott mashing setup.

I, too, added a spigot to a cooler and ran into a similar 
problem --  I drilled a hole for the spigot and found that 
the spigot's threading was not long enough to fit all the 
way through.  By this time, I had to find a solution 
because I had just forked over a good 14 bucks for the 
thing at Sears.  So I drilled a second hole in the outer skin 
of the cooler large enough to accommodate the spigot's 
largest outside diameter (I used a paddle bit which 
chowdered the thing up a bit, but it ain't exactly a 
Chippendale to begin with).  Then I fastened the spigot on 
the inside skin.  I had to remove quite a bit of the 
Styrofoam insulation.  In order to prevent the insulation 
from pouring out, I filled the void with a product called 
"Great Stuff."  This is an expanding insulation foam that 
comes in a can (the package says no CFCs, by the way).  It's 
pretty gooey stuff and it doesn't take much to fill the gap 
around the spigot to seal in the insulation.

It works quite well, though you must be careful about 
preventing grains from getting in as the spigot will clog 
very easily.  I use a rectangular plastic needlepoint screen 
(cut to fit the bottom of the cooler -- ) which I fasten to the 
exposed spigot threads with a bit of picture wire so it stays 
in place.  I'm looking for a better solution to that problem,
though.

[Credit goes to Alice and John  at  Brewers,Asso., 
Portsmouth, NH for the needlepoint screen idea, thanks!]

Jonathan Labaree
jonlab at igc.org
August West Brewery, Newburyport, MA

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Date: Mon, 1 Nov 1993 09:44:23 -0500 (EST)
From: Jim Busch <busch at daacdev1.stx.com>
Subject: Re: Hops FAQ

A couple of questions/comments wrt the Hops FAQ:

<At the end of the growing season when the leaves have fallen or turned brown,
<cut the vines at the surface of the soil and if possible remove the twine.
<After cutting back the vines a layer of 3 or 4 inches of mulch and composted
<manure can be put over the exposed vines for insulation and nutrition during
<the winter.

I read in Brewing Techniques that if the vines are allowed to remain uncut
at the end of the season, the rootstock will build up energy stores for the
upcoming winter season, and be healthier next year.  This is obviously
not practical for big farms, but due to my inherent procrastination, it is
exactly how my plants are now.  Comments?  

<The proper length of time for dry hopping is dependent on the temperature.  At
ale temperatures, 7-14 days of contact time is widely used.  At lager
temperatures, although little data is available, it seems obvious that longer
contact times, on the order of 14-21 days, are called for. It is common to use
0.5 - 2.0 oz. or more in a 5 gallon batch, but as always it is up the
individual's preferences.

OK, how does temperature affect hop aroma wrt dry hopping?  This doesnt seem
intuitively obvious to me.  I also would point out that I have dry hopped
1 BBl batches in the primary (after high krausen and skimming) for a mere
3 days with excellent results, and I know of a local brewpub that has dry
hopped with pellets (I use whole) for one day, filtered and served online
the next, so this will work.  The point is that dry hopping times vary all
over the spectrum, and I suspect if a heavy hand is used in the amounts,
time is less important.  I'm still wondering about the lager comment???

Best,
Jim Busch




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Date: Mon, 1 Nov 93 10:25:36 EST
From: lconrad at epoch.com (Laura Conrad)
Subject: Spruce beer

I think of spruce beer as one of those seasonal things.  I've only
done it with new spruce growth in the spring.  The color, texture and
smell are all quite pleasant to work with.

The recipe I started with (Papazian?) said 1 quart of new spruce
growth, but I just pick a plastic bag full.  You will find that when
you are communing with an actual spruce tree, you will not want to
pick all the easily accessible growth, and you will get tired of
getting scratched by the old growth before you have picked too much of
the less accessible stuff.

I did one batch where I was less careful about not using any old
needles.  It had a much more aggressive and less delicate (although
still not unpleasant) spruce character.

All this is more fun and probably less likely to lead to overspruced
beer than buying bottles of essence at the home brew store.  Of
course, you can only do it in late May and June.

			Laura

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Date: Mon, 1 Nov 93 10:25:36 EST
From: epochsys!lconrad at uunet.UU.NET (Laura Conrad)
Subject: Spruce beer

I think of spruce beer as one of those seasonal things.  I've only
done it with new spruce growth in the spring.  The color, texture and
smell are all quite pleasant to work with.

The recipe I started with (Papazian?) said 1 quart of new spruce
growth, but I just pick a plastic bag full.  You will find that when
you are communing with an actual spruce tree, you will not want to
pick all the easily accessible growth, and you will get tired of
getting scratched by the old growth before you have picked too much of
the less accessible stuff.

I did one batch where I was less careful about not using any old
needles.  It had a much more aggressive and less delicate (although
still not unpleasant) spruce character.

All this is more fun and probably less likely to lead to overspruced
beer than buying bottles of essence at the home brew store.  Of
course, you can only do it in late May and June.

			Laura

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Date: Mon, 1 Nov 93 10:45:39 EST
From: montanoa at vnet.IBM.COM
Subject: Brew Ha Ha's 5 liter mini keg system

Does anyone has experience (either good or bad) with the 5 liter mini keg
system that Brew Ha Ha sells?  I am looking to puchase one of these things and
want to get a feel for the experiences of others.  I'd appreciate any info--
either here or private email.

Tony Montano
Montanoa at Vnet.IBM.COM

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Date: Mon, 1 Nov 93 09:07:25 -0700
From: Kelly Jones <k-jones at ee.utah.edu>
Subject: More on steam injection SAFETY!

In HBD #1259 we read:

>I'm relying solely on memory here, since I wasn't taking notes, but as
>best as I can reconstruct it, the setup is like this:  An ordinary
>pressure cooker (about 2 gallon capacity, I would guess) is modified
>by removing the pressure release in the center of the lid (NOT the
>safety pressure release, which is offset from the center on this one)
>and replacing it with a compression fitting.  From that is run a length
>of flexible metal hose (the kind used for a gas line to a kitchen
>stove, I think) about 4 or 5 feet long.

I hate to criticize a great idea, but if this description is accurate,
it could be **very dangerous**.  The thingy in the center of the lid
(a weight covering a small hole) is what regulates the pressure inside
the chamber. (It basically works because the doohickey has a weight of
15 pounds for every square inch of hole that it covers.  Thus if the
pressure inside exceeds 15 PSI, the weight gets pushed aside a little,
venting some steam, and thus reducing the pressure.)  By modifying
this, you are eliminating the pressure regulation of the pot!  Sure
there is still a safety valve, but this is set for a pressure somewhat
higher than the cookers normal 15 psi operating pressure, also, if
this valve becomes clogged (and it does happen) you now have zero
pressure regulation!  Add a little more heat to the cooker, and the
pressure will go way up, until the kettle explodes violently.

Please, if you're going to try this, add the steam outlet somewhere
else on the pot, but DO NOT MODIFY EITHER THE SAFETY RELEASE VALVE NOR
THE PRESSURE REGULATOR!!!!

Lets be careful out there...
Kelly

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Date: Mon, 1 Nov 93 9:16:26 MST
From: npyle at n33.stortek.com
Subject: Re: Plans for Grain Mill

Matt Harper wrote:

>Dion Hollenbeck writes:
>
>[ SNIP of many questions regarding tool availability & time & materials ]

[ MORE SNIPS done by me... ]

>>us brewers.  But, please do not make light of the effort that goes
>>into producing the great products which are being offered to us.
>>Knowing what it takes to produce these, I am quite satisfied that we
>>as home-brewers are getting fair value for our money frome the vast
>>majority of brewing equipment manufacturers.
>>
>>Steve, I do not mean to single you out, this thread has popped up so
>>many times, I just took the opportunity of your post to reply to a
>>topic which has been bugging me for a long time.
>>
>  I haven't gotten the impression that anyone has made light of the effort Jack
>or anyone else has put into producing effectvie roller mills designs.  I've
>seen & used a MM at one of the HB shops I get supplies from.  Jack did a good
>job on it.  Most of the reviews I have seen have been pretty close to the mark
>regarding usability of the device.  It gives a great crush but as many people
>have indicated the design could be improved upon some.

Matt, you didn't read the original article (from Steve Seaney) that started the
thread did you? Here is what Dion was talking about:

>The other day I saw one of Jack Schmedling's  (sp?) grain mills at a
>brew store.  It doesn't appear to be that hard to make.  The cost
>seems extremely high.

Now, doesn't that appear to you that Steve is making light of Jack's efforts?
It does to me, which is why I also wrote to defend Jack's mill (having made a
couple of roller mills myself).  All your talk about building it yourself for
the hobby of it all is perfectly accurate.  Just don't make light of the
commercial side.  Dion was right on with his remarks.

Cheers,
Norm

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End of HOMEBREW Digest #1262, 11/03/93