FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Rob Gardner, Digest Coordinator


Contents:
  Re: Plans for Grain Mill (Steve Seaney)
  Hunter Airstat (Bob_McIlvaine)
  water adjustment questions (c-amb)
  Chilling Out, Hops, Brass (Jack Schmidling)
  All-Grain FAQ??? (thomask)
  Gott cooler fitting (/R=HERLVX/R=AM/U=KLIGERMAN/FFN=KLIGERMAN/)
  replies and such from a newneophyte (Mark Bunster)
  Re: cost-effecient brew (REGINAH)
  patio hop growing (Al Lingley)
  RE:Post boil wort handling (Michael Berger)
  rice, the other light grain (Paul Boor)
  Is Pale, Pale?/Pils malt-based extract (korz)
  What's wrong with white hoses? ("Mark B. Alston")
  AAU, IBU, and published numbers (Ed Hitchcock)
  Cutting hop vines  (Jim Busch)
  Airplane Pressure and Beer (Jeff Berton)
  Steam injection (one more time) (WESTEMEIER)
  Brewery Liturature (robl)
  how I sparge (Rick Larson)
  Re: Another immersion chiller (Ed Hitchcock)
  Too long a fermentation time.?.. ("Richard J. Niziak")
  easy wort chilling method (Michael T. Lobo)
  remove obrien at aa_macmail.aa.ab.com (Dave(PD) Heller)
  Eisbocks legal (Scott Stihler (USGS analyst))
  Clubs (Kieran O'Connor)
  Cider (Eric Saidel)
  Rye and Spruce (Darren Aaberge)
  College brewers (esonn1)
  help (Kenneth Wagner)
  Re: diastatic malt powder/ (BIO)" <tillman at chuma.cas.usf.edu>
  Convert to all-grain? (Steven Tollefsrud)


Send articles for __publication_only__ to homebrew at hpfcmi.fc.hp.com
  (Articles are published in the order they are received.)
Send UNSUBSCRIBE and all other requests, ie, address change, etc.,
  to homebrew-request@ hpfcmi.fc.hp.com, BUT PLEASE NOTE that if
  you subscribed via the BITNET listserver (BEER-L at UA1VM.UA.EDU),
  then you MUST unsubscribe the same way! 
If your account is being deleted, please be courteous and unsubscribe first.
Archives are available via anonymous ftp from sierra.stanford.edu.
  (Those without ftp access may retrieve files via mail from
  listserv at sierra.stanford.edu. Send HELP as the body of a
  message to that address to receive listserver instructions.)
Please don't send me requests for back issues - you will be silently ignored.
For "Cat's Meow" information, send mail to lutzen at novell.physics.umr.edu



----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 3 Nov 1993 11:32:26 -0600 (CST)
From: Steve Seaney <seaney at ie.engr.wisc.edu>
Subject:  Re: Plans for Grain Mill

- -----
Dion Writes:

I feel that Steve made light of Jack's efforts because he complained
about the cost and said right after that he could do a good without
much effort (this is a paraphrase).  A lot of other people complain
about the retail prices of equipment like Jack's and state that they
could do as good for a lot less.  I was just pointing out why retail
prices are generally extremely fair and what really goes into making a
product, rather than a one-off copy of someone's design.  If you make
it yourself and it does not last or does not work quite up to snuff,
then you generally don't complain.  Jack and other inventors have to
make a product which works well and last, which most of them do.
- -------------------------------------------------------------------

Jack's mill is a nice piece of work.  My complaint about the cost
doesn't counter the craftsmanship of the work. Jack however is making
a profit in this mill.  There's nothing wrong with profit -- if you
want to pay the price.  Most of the cost associated with the mill is
in labor.  The mill can be made much cheaper if you use your own time
as labor.  Furthermore, if you enjoy making things, the labor can be
fun -- hence enjoyment becomes another reason to build the mill.

Jack's mill is nice, it's not the end all however.  I'm sure we can
put together another mill that will be better in some respects --
perhaps one of these respects will be manufacturability with a minimum
number of tools.  I have never intended to copy Jack's design, I would
rather try to devise a mill that can be built with largely existing
hardware.  It would be nice if anyone could build it -- even w/o
access to a decent mill and lathe. Then people will copy, improve,
copy, improve, ad infinitum.  It's always easy to build something with
all the tools you need.  I've always respected people who do things on
a shoe string budget more then ones that do it by throwing money at
it.  People have been mechanically grinding grain since the 1400's (at
least).  I don't think they had stainless and carbide. Finally, Jack's
mill isn't an invention, it's a craft.  There's nothing that special
or unique to it.  It's simply a good piece of work.

I really don't understand Dion's hangup on building a mill.   Please
go throw water on someone else's parade.  We are having fun over here. 

I am still collecting ideas for parts of the mill.  If there are any
interesting ideas for the rollers I'd appreciate a note.   It'd be
nice to use parts that are available at hardware stores, etc.  

Thanks,
Steve
- --
Steve Seaney: 608/265-3954: seaney at engr.wisc.edu


Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 03 Nov 93 13:35:57 EST
From: Bob_McIlvaine at keyfile.com
Subject: Hunter Airstat


The Hunter Airstat is a relatively simple
electronic device. It has some nice facilities
which monitor the on time for the current
day, previous day, and total usage as well
as maintaining the the temperature.
It also has a digital display for the
temperature. And as noted previously
in these tombs, has been discontinued.

The plans for a similar device are available
for $10 from JB Distributing. The plans
show the details of a device which will
control your fridge temp as set by the
owner. It doesn't have the nifty display and
monitoring features. JB Distributing says
the circuit boards for this design will be
available soon and they have the plans
for a more advanced model on the drawing
boards. They also have plans and circuit 
boards for other items like a digital brewers
thermometer with a 30" probe (great for deep
vessels of hot stuff).

For more details contact:

JB Distributing
123 SilverLake Rd.
Hollis, NH 03049
603-465-7633

Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 3 Nov 1993 10:44:00 -0700
From: c-amb at csc-sun.math.utah.edu
Subject: water adjustment questions

I have been going over my water analysis and Dave Miller's book to
figure out what water adjustments I am going to need before my first all
grain.  However, Dave leaves out some quantitative information which I
seem to need.

First let me give you the important numbers (3 year average):

		Bicarbonate   251 ppm
		Calcium        43 ppm
		Sodium          5 ppm
		Sulfate        12 ppm
		Magnesium      17 ppm

Now, as you can see, the bicarb level is quite high.  Moreover, there
is not enough calcium to simply boil off the bicarbs.  Thus, using
Dave's formulas I have calculated that I would need to add approx 2
tsp. of gypsum for 5 gal. of water prior to boiling in order to remove
the excess bicarbonate.  This will also raise the sulfate level to 292
ppm and this is where I start to get nervous.  Dave says that excess
sulfate will add a dry edge to well hopped beers.  Sulfate combined
with sodium makes this quite harsh he tells me. This makes the hophead
in me quite nervous.  However, how much is too much?  Because of my
low sodium level am I o.k. with this high level of sulfates?  Any info
or pointers are greatly appreciated.

Thanks in advance,
	Mark Alston
	c-amb at math.utah.edu



Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 3 Nov 93 11:53 CST
From: arf at mcs.com (Jack Schmidling)
Subject: Chilling Out, Hops, Brass

 
 I decided to scrap my original responses to the ad hominem comments on my 
 remarks about chillers and try something completely different.
 
 Not only do I have strong feelings about chillers but I also think the 
 net.sense.of.humor needs a little thrashing.  I sold my business and retired 
 at age forty because I got tired of kissing the world's behind and making 
 sure that nothing I ever said offended anyone, anywhere on Earth.
 
 I make beer and beer stuff and participate in these discussions because it is 
 fun and mutually informative.  When things get boring, I inject a little fun 
 but everybody has their own idea of what fun is.  If people do not like my 
 humor, that's life and I accept it.  The fact that I refuse to use these 
 things .... :) is part of the fun because baiting the humor impaired is right 
 up there with sex as far as I am concerned.  It might even be as much fun as 
 "beer drinks".
 
 I find that using expressions like "the Lighthouse of Wisdom and Truth" and 
 the "World's Greatest Beer" is a great way to bring the real weenies out of 
 the closet.  I have little sympathy for people who take them seriously.
 
 I will bite my lip (fingers) and keep my responses non-personal and offer the 
 following summary of the current comments that are worth repeating:
 
 1.  If the claims of efficiency are correct, water conservation
     is a good argument in defense of the C/F chiller.
  
 2.  A KB type HOP BACK (tm) will only work properly with a C/F chiller but
     it remains to be proven that it offers any advantage over a immersion
     chiller with a tight fitting lid.
 
 End of list.  No one even claimed that they make clearer beer this time.
 
 I refer readers to my previous comments for the counter arguments in favor of 
 the immersion chiller.
 
 >From: ed fromohio <NEGATIVE3 at unh.edu
  
 >Subject: Bread from mash recipe request
 
 >HI, I was wondering if anyone has a recipe or idea for bread from the
 spent mash....
 
 
                       BEER BREAD
 
 
      3     cups spent grain (wet)
      1     cup flour
      1     cup warm water
      1     tsp yeast
      1/4   cup sugar
 
 Mix and let ferment in warm place for several hours or overnight.
 
 Add 1 tsp salt and nead in or mix flour, one cup at a time, until the dough 
 will not stick to the fingers.  This will take about 5 additional cups, the 
 amount depending on the water content of the grain.  Then continue to nead or 
 mix until a silky texture that does not stick to fingers is achieved.
 
 Let the dough rise (covered) in a warm place for at least an hour or till it 
 doubles in volume.  Then form into loaves and let rise again.  When doubled 
 in volume, bake at 375 for 25 min.
 
 I roll the dough into bars about 2" in diameter and about 10" long and just 
 lay them on a baking sheet.  If you bake full size loaves in bread pans, the 
 baking time would probably be longer.
 ............
 
 Since getting a Corona, I now dry the spent grain and grind it up with the 
 Corona to get a more acceptable texture.  One cup dry and three cups water 
 works out for the above recepie.
 
 >From: Jim Busch <busch at daacdev1.stx.com>
 
 >I read in Brewing Techniques that if the vines are allowed to remain uncut
 at the end of the season, the rootstock will build up energy stores for the
 upcoming winter season, and be healthier next year.  This is obviously
 not practical for big farms, but due to my inherent procrastination, it is
 exactly how my plants are now.  Comments?
 
 No comments here, just the ULTIMATE TRUTH....
 
 From the plant's point of view, it is best to allow it to grow until it goes 
 dorment.  The root stock continues to develop as long as photosynthesis is 
 going on.  Once it goes dorment or freezes, the vines are dead and it makes 
 no difference what you do with them.  There are practical and economic 
 reasons for cutting them earlier but it does compromise overall vigor.
 
 >From: npyle at n33.stortek.com
 >Subject: Brass in the boil
 
 >A week ago, Andrew asked about brass in the boil.  I have a brass fitting
 inside of my boiler as well, so I'm also curious to hear the answer.
 
 Not sure what the question was but as the use of copper seems to be accepted 
 since time time immemorial, the question ought to be the safety of using zinc 
 in a boiler.
 
 Zinc is a useful suplement both for humans and yeast so I guess we can assume 
 that brass is also.
 
 js
 
 
 

Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 3 Nov 1993 10:21:26 -0800
From: thomask at ichips.intel.com
Subject: All-Grain FAQ???



With the recent proliferation of FAQ's, I've been wondering about
a similar resource for grains.  What I'm most interested in is
some sort of comparative listing of the characteristics of various
grains.  Color, enzymes, and especially flavor/body profiles like
those recently provided for hop varieties.  Also interesting would
be some sort of interaction guide, noting interesting or perhaps
traditional mixes which achieve certain common goals in mashing.

Does anybody know a good book for this?  Seems like the really
excellent technical guides all focus on a single variety of beer,
which is too restrictive (especially when I tend to throw style
guides to the winds and INVENT)...

thomask at ichips.intel.com
        at cs.washington.edu

Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 03 Nov 1993 12:54:58 -0500 (EST)
From: /R=HERLVX/R=AM/U=KLIGERMAN/FFN=KLIGERMAN/ at mr.rtpnc.epa.gov
Subject: Gott cooler fitting

An easy way to modify a Gott cooler is to remove the spigot, replace it
with a rubber stopper with a hole in the center.  Place a glass. metal or
plastic tube through the center an attach the the valve you want to use
with a length of plastic tubing.  I've done this to make a copper coiled
mash tun, and it is much superior to the 2 bucket method.
Andy Kligerman



Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 3 Nov 93 13:32:26 EST
From: Mark Bunster <mbunster at hibbs.vcu.edu>
Subject: replies and such from a newneophyte

Hello all-
maiden post. Excellent digest so far. Packed full of 411...

replies first:

*Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1993 09:23:05 -0400 (EDT)
*From: /R=HERLVX/R=AM/U=KLIGERMAN/FFN=KLIGERMAN/ at mr.rtpnc.epa.gov
*Subject: airlines, porter, brewbup, Sheath and Vine
*
*Just a few interesting tidbits:
*Yesterday my wife tried to take 4 homebrews on American airlines
*out of Raleigh-Durham and was stopped at security.  Although the
*bottles were capped, since they had no label she was not allowed to bring
*them into the passenger cabin.  They said they could be stowed in the luggage
* but we declined, fearing depressurization problems.
 
 My family's experience with transporting beers has been much smoother. Ah,
 but of course they were labeled. If yer gonna take them, slap a commercial
 label on it just to get it on the plane (in the plane.) I do, however, recall
 at least one occassion where bee> r> s were stowed in luggage on a
 transcontinental flight (smuggled much Maisel's) with no ill effects. Just
 luck I ask the faithful? What say yinz?
 

* Re: Swan V. Taylor's request for info on brewpubs in the Chapel
* Hill area.  There are none in Chapel Hill, one in Raleigh (Greenshields),
* and one in the Winston-Salem area (Lagerhead or Loggerhead?) that I know
* of.  the one in Durham (aka:Weeping Radish,etc.) bit the big one!
* 
 Bummer. So far Weeping Radish is the ony place I've been to in the states
 that serves by the liter krug. (Then again, the MidAtlantic is lame for good
 drinking establishments.) 
 As far as I know, the one in Manteo, NC is still open (Manteo is on the Outer
 Banks, across the sound from Nags Head/Kill Devil Hills). Really good German
 style drafts, darts, German pub grub, etc. A great diversion while at the
 beach, and a beautiful drive across the sound if you do it at sunset.
 
 Neophyte's question, if not adequately covered in the FAQ: what is the
 benefit of mashing, what's>  > generally involved, and what distinguishes a
 mash-out from a normal mash?
 
 And does anyone else do much substitution of honey for other priming agents?
 In small quantities, it's wonderful! Even in large quantities it's really
 good, but you get a really sweet beer, one that bears little resemblance to
 what the indians called, uh, beer.
 

 -- 
 Mark Bunster                      |Exchange conversation if you dare-- 
 Survey Research Lab--VCU          |Share an empty thought or a laugh.
 Richmond, VA 23220                |
 mbunster at hibbs.vcu.edu            |
 (804) 367-8813/353-1731           |                          -edFROM




Return to table of contents


Date:          Wed, 3 Nov 1993 13:50:56 EST5EDT
From: REGINAH at SOCIOLOGY.Lan.McGill.CA
Subject:       Re: cost-effecient brew

To all you fortunate folks south of the border--
    Brewing may not be less expensive than store-bought for you, but 
up here in the land of excessive luxury tax you can make your own far 
superior brew for half the cost of commercial beer.  Hard to see why 
anyone in their right mind still buys commercial-- they must put mind 
altering chemicals in it.

Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 03 Nov 1993 13:58:41
From: axl at cherry-semi.com (Al Lingley)
Subject: patio hop growing

I live in a condo style apartment and have had limited success growing
hops on my deck.  I used a 1x3x1 planter box and ran twine up to my
bedroom window one story up. I would recommend using larger planter
box, as I feel my plants are now root bound. I planted hallertauer which
I have been told is a lower yielding variety.

The first year netted a few shoots about 7 feet in length, due to my planting
late in the spring.  Year 2 (this year) netted many 20 ft. vines and about
3 ounces of dried hops.  My low yield was mainly due to Japanese beatle
infestation.  

About the only advice I can give is to water daily (soaking), and shake
those vines at least once a day (beatles).  I fertilized about every
2 weeks with Miracle Grow.

Al Lingley
axl at cherry-semi.com


Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 3 Nov 93 14:14:16 EST
From: mberger at wellfleet.com (Michael Berger)
Subject: RE:Post boil wort handling

My thanks to all those who replied to my recent posting of questions regarding
the handling of the post-boil wort and the off-flavors that can come of it.
The answers were essentially unanimous and I have summarized the 
recommendations below.

After the boil is complete, the wort should be chilled using your favorite
chilling technique.  The hot wort should be exposed to air as little as 
possible in order to avoid the dreaded HSA (hot side aeration).   HSA is
a common cause of a "cardboard-like" off-flavor.  A rapid chilling of
the wort also reduces the risk of bacterial "action" that could cause other
off-flavors.

After chilling is complete, the wort should be racked into the primary
using a racking tube with a "copper scrubby" on the end to filter out 
hops and other solids in the boiler.  At this time, the *chilled* wort
should be aerated.

The primary should be a carboy instead of an open plastic bucket.  You
can set up the carboy as a "blow-off/by" for the primary.  Your chilling
method should have brought the wort temperature down to pitching temp
so you should immediately pitch your starter. 

Thanx again.


Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 03 Nov 1993 13:28:03 -0500 (CDT)
From: Paul Boor <PBOOR at BEACH.UTMB.EDU>
Subject: rice, the other light grain

Rice has been mentioned recently as a way to emulate
"your bud". I advocate the use of rice in allgrain
brews of all lighter type, and have used it lighten
porters.  It's not just for yaller-beers.

Good rice, like  Indian Basmati, has a nice aroma
as well.  I use a half to a pound, cooked well and 
added to the mash with the regular grain bill.
the amazing thing ishow it lowers the finishing
gravity, like down around 1005 for a beer that
might be expected to be 1015.

Rice is used by many commercial brewers, my 
favorite being The Utica Club Brewery in Utica
NY, makers of such greats asSaranac Adirondack
Lager.  Try their beer if you get to upstate
New York.  The brewery has also done some 
nice contract brews in the past, jumpstarting
such beers as New Amsterdam and Sam Adams
(yes! the boston lager was orginally made
in NY)

Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 3 Nov 93 14:42 CST
From: korz at iepubj.att.com
Subject: Is Pale, Pale?/Pils malt-based extract

Ed writes:
>As a full mash novice I want to stay with simple infusion mashes for
>a while.  What kind of grain does this mean I am restricted to.
>I used Pale (2-row english).  The day after I went to another
>brew store and they had two Pales(2-row from Germany and from America).
>Pale is Pale???
		<snip>
>Will it be as modified as the english Pale? Is it an oversimplification
>to say Pale == you can do an infusion?  I was reading Miller last
>night and he explains the difference between Pale, Mild, Vienna, Munich,
>Lager, Klages etc.. But what I want to know is, what can I infusion mash
>as a base grain for recipe (obviously not specialty grains and adjuncts).
>Pale is Pale??? No adjuncts used currently, so I don't need extra enzymes.
>Describe how to tell if grain is good? Miller goes into it some (or was it 
>Noonan?), but what do you look for?

When you say "simple infusion mashes" you probably mean "mashes with no
protein rest," right?  You can do this with infusion mashing (raising the
temperatures with INFUSIONS of boiling water) or "stovetop" mashing (raising
the temp with a heat source.

Whether or not you need a protein rest is dependent on how well modified
the malt is.  Most modern malts that we get in the stores are well-modified.
Perhaps some of the custom malts that A-B or Miller or Coors use are less
modified, but we certainly won't be getting any of that stuff normally.
You can tell how well modified a malt is by looking at how long the acrospire
has grown (I believe it was Noonan that described this in detail).  What you
do is rub off the husk on the acrospire side of the grain and compare the
length of the acrospire with the length of the whole kernel.  If the acrospire
is 3/4 of the kernel length or more, then the malt is fully modified.  If it
is significantly less than 3/4 of the kernel length, then the malt is less-
than-fully-modified.  You need to do this on a couple of kernels and consider
the average length.

Also, as you probably already know, more highly kilned malts (like Munich malt)
have less remaining enzymes than the less kilned malts (like Pilsner malt)..
Malts like DeWolf-Cosyns Aromatic is reported to be able to convert itself
despite being a highly-kilned malt, whereas I believe that DWC Biscuit is not
able to convert itself.

*******************************
Andy writes:
            extract brewing as well as all-grain.  The problem: the
            all-grain version will require pilsner malt and the extracts
            I've been able to find (DME & LME [No, not Male extract])
            are all based on Pale Malt.  Does anyone out there in
            HBD-land know of Pilsner Malt extracts that are Unhopped and
            (hopefully) no adjuncts?

I think your best bet is perhaps might be Alexander's Malt Extract.  It
and Munton & Fison Extra Pale are the two lightest extracts that I know of.
The difference between the flavor of Pale and Pilsner malts is really just
that the Pale malts tend to have a bit of caramel (just a bit) in the
flavor, thanks to the higher kilning temperatures.  I would suspect that
these two really pale malt extracts will have used the palest malts the
manufacturers had available.  M&F is in England, so maybe the Alexanders
may be the most Pilsner-like of the two.  Another consideration may be
to use German extracts such as Ireks Bavarian Light or Bierkeller Light,
which are probably made from Pilsner malt.

Al.


Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 3 Nov 93 14:07:12 MST
From: "Mark B. Alston" <c-amb at math.utah.edu>
Subject: What's wrong with white hoses?

I am always seeing warnings about soaking hoses in a bleach solution
for too long of a period of time.  These warnings are always in
regards to the hoses turning chalky white.  Well, this in itself does
not seem like such a problem.  I am not too concerned with the
aesthetic problems of white hoses :)  So, is there another concern
that is behind these warnings?  What is the problem with white hoses?

Thanks,
Mark Alston
c-amb at math.utah.edu

Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 03 Nov 1993 18:42:31 -0400
From: Ed Hitchcock <ECH at ac.dal.ca>
Subject: AAU, IBU, and published numbers

	I've been getting lots of use out of the hops FAQ, but I am left 
with a nagging question.  I was trying to follow Pierre Rajotte's belgian 
ale recipes, but when using the formulae from the hops FAQ the numbers seem 
way off.  For example, one recipe calls for 7 HBU's or 22 IBU's of hops.  
Another calls for 10 HBU's or 30 IBU's.  Now even being super conservative, 
I get 10 HBU's is roughly equal to 38 IBU's.  That's over 25% more!  And 
using the equations unmodified, 10 HBU's is in the range of 48 IBU's, or 
60% more.  What gives?  
	Just so you can frustrate yourselves too, here are the (simplified) 
equations I've been using:
	%Util = 13.11 + 13.86 * TANH((T-31.32)/18.23)
	IBU's = %Util * %AA * Qty / Vol / 10
	Where: T is time in minutes,
	      %Util is in percentages (ie 0-100, not 0-1)
	      %AA is the alpha acid content in percentages	
	      Qty is the quantity of hops in grams
	      Vol is the volume of wort in Litres
	      TANH(x) = (e^x - e^(-x))/(e^x + e^(-x)), e being the 
		mathematical constant epsilon, roughly 2.71828
	Note the 13.11 value in %Util, versus the 18.11 value in the hops 
FAQ.  This is to convert to the modified utilization table presented by 
Mark Garetz.  

____________   
Ed Hitchcock	ech at ac.dal.ca	| Oxymoron:  Draft beer in bottles. |
Anatomy & Neurobiology		| Pleonasm:  Draft beer on tap.     |
Dalhousie University, Halifax	|___________________________________|


Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 3 Nov 1993 18:03:04 -0500 (EST)
From: Jim Busch <busch at daacdev1.stx.com>
Subject: Cutting hop vines 

Since I posted a question regarding hop vines/harvesting and the
merits of cutting the vines at harvest, I received this excellent 
summary the issues.  I found it interesting, hopefully you will too. 

Jim Busch

> Date:         Wed, 03 Nov 93 10:52:27 CST
> From: "Edward F. Loewenstein" <SNREDLOW at MIZZOU1.missouri.edu>
> Subject:      Cutting hop vines

 Jim,
   Just read your posting on the homebrew net and hope I can be of some
 help.
 
   Commercial growers of hops mechanically harvest their hops by cutting
 the vines off at ground line when the hops are ripe and separate the
 cones from the vines via a machine similar to a cotton gin.  Of course
 some of the cones are a bit overripe, some underripe, but some allowances
 must be made for mechanization.
 
   By picking the cones by hand, as most homegrowers do, you can pick all
 of the cones when they are ripe.  Further, I have found that many hop
 varieties (Cluster, Nugget and Pearle) produce additional flushes of
 flowers following initial harvest.
 
   Concerning leaving the vines in place after the end of the season.
 indeed, leaving the vines after picking the cones (while the leaves
 are still green) does allow the hop plant to produce and store extra
 carbohydrates in the root system for the following year.  Once the
 plant scenesces (leaves and vine turn brown), no additional benefit
 is derived.  At this time, or shortly thereafter, it is wise to cut
 the vines and clean-up any fallen hop leaves from the area.  The
 reason for this is that fungal organisms overwinter in and on the
 dead plant material and if left can infect/reinfect your plants the
 next growing season.  Typically, downy and powdery mildew and
 verticilium wilt will follow this life cycle.  Insect larvae such as
 aphids can also overwinter in infected dead plant tissue.  I try to
 remove all hop leaves to my compost pile (located well away from my
 hop mounds), or if I have had a problem with an infection, burn any
 infected material (downwind from the mounds).  I also use the dead
 vines to weave wreaths for Christmas decorations.  My wife decorates
 these with dried flower arrangements.  I've also heard of people
 selling these wreaths to craft stores.
 
   Hope this helps.
 
 Ed Loewenstein
 SNREDLOW at mizzou1.missouri.edu
 Department of Forestry
 


Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 3 Nov 1993 18:58:02 -0500
From: jeff344 at voodoo.lerc.nasa.gov (Jeff Berton)
Subject: Airplane Pressure and Beer


Andy writes:

> Yesterday my wife tried to take 4 homebrews on American airlines
> out of Raleigh-Durham and was stopped at security.  Although the 
> bottles were capped, since they had no label she was not allowed to bring
> them into the passenger cabin.  They said they could be stowed in the luggage
> but we declined, fearing depressurization problems.

The cargo bay and passenger cabins of commercial aircraft are both pressurized
and heated.  From a structural point of view, with pressure differentials
dominating fuselage design, it's easier to pressurize everything between the
forward and aft pressure bulkheads, the cargo bay included.  (Bombers' bomb
bays, by the way, which must be able to open at altitude, have all sorts of
additional fuselage pressure structure that is unnecessary on commercial
aircraft.)

At cruising altitudes on commercial airplanes, this cabin/cargo pressure is
maintained at about 11 psi;  that which you'd experience at about 8000 feet
altitude.  So, during the flight, an additional 4 psi would be added to the
pressure differential already experienced by your bottle of homebrew (If more
cabin depressurization occurs, you probably won't be worrying about your
homebrew!).  That's not too large an additional load, considering that a
modestly-primed bottle of homebrew is already experiencing a pressure
differential of about 20 psi at sea level (This is according to my
back-of-the-envelope priming sugar calculation - maybe someone can verify?).

So, taking your homebrew on an airplane, either in the cargo hold or as
carry-on luggage, shouldn't cause the bottle to blow unless you're already
operating on the ragged edge of your bottle cap's safety factor!  Given a
choice, I'd opt for carry-on luggage, since baggage handlers sometimes lack
that delicate touch. 
- -- 
Jeff Berton, Aeropropulsion Analysis Office, NASA
Lewis Research Center jeff344 at voodoo.lerc.nasa.gov



 


Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 03 Nov 1993 19:05:03 -0400 (EDT)
From: WESTEMEIER at delphi.com
Subject: Steam injection (one more time)

Boy, am I sorry I ever mentioned this.
 
Please everyone, calm down and react to what you read, not
what you _think_ you read.
 
I know that high pressure steam is dangerous.  That's why
I specifically stated that this was low pressure steam.  The
15 psi or less put out by a home pressure cooker is slightly
dangerous, but only if it comes in contact with you or material
that can't handle the temperature.
 
I know that modifying a pressure cooker's safety release valve
is dangerous.  That's why I specifically stated that we didn't
modify it (that little valve with the weight on it is not in the
center of this particular model.
 
Dan Listermann, who built this gadget, is still kinda computer-shy,
so he can't handle direct contact yet.  He 's beginning to get
the hang of Compu$pend, but isn't quite up to e-mail yet.  That's
why he asked me to post the original question here, as to whether
anyone else had ever tried this technique.  It appears that he's
the first.  OK, back to the drawing board, and he's working on
a second version that will incorporate some more safeguards and be
less prone to misuse.  The fact remains though, that the initial
attempt worked superbly when used with care!
 
- -- Ed Westemeier   Cincinnati, Ohio  westemeier at delphi.com
 

Return to table of contents


Date: 	Wed, 3 Nov 1993 19:07:38 -0800
From: robl <ROBL at outside.com>
Subject:      Brewery Liturature

I'm interested in reading about the breweries that were around in the 
pre- and post prohibition area in the United States.  Speciffically 
historical accounts of Brewery size, specialty, even examples of their 
logos/labels.

I'm rather new to this group (this is my first posting :-) and I'm not 
sure if this topic was ever previously discussed, or in the archives.  
I'm looking for any titles of books or articles.  Thanks group!
================
Robert Linder
Crystal Point Inc
phone 206-487-3656 fax 206-487-3773

================

Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 3 Nov 93 21:55:44 CST
From: rick at adc.com (Rick Larson)
Subject: how I sparge


Ed asks about sparging:
> What is the best way to sparge.

Welcome to the world of all grain brewing!

Here is how I sparge (68qt cooler/copper manifold) (sorry about the
steps :-).  It may not be the best way, but I works for me.

1. Underlet mash with sparge water.  I connect my hot
   liquor tank to the manifold outlet and fill the cooler
   to the brim.  This will help raise the mash temp to
   mash out.

2. Add specialty grains if used.

3. Stir the mash for even temps.

4. Let sit for 15 minutes.

5. Connect pipe from cooler to brew kettle and draw off about
   1 quart.  I don't recirculate until clear but enough
   to remove the *big* chunks.

6. Carefully pour the quart on the top of the mash water.

7. Slowly drain sparge water into brew kettle.

8. I repeat steps 1-7 until I use all my sparge water
   or the gravity gets below 4P (about 1.020).


I find underletting the sparge water will help reduce HSA.
Bob Jones and Micah Millspaw recommend underletting the mash
for better beer stability in last winters Zymurgy and Norm Pyle
restates Bob and Micah's article a recent digest.

The batch sparge is very easy and helps when I have 
other things going on (like wife, kids, house...).  This was
recommended by several other brewers in this digest.

Letting the mash sit for a bit (I use about 15 minutes)
help settle the grain bed.

Chilling out with my counter-flow chiller,
rick


Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 04 Nov 1993 08:07:22 -0400
From: Ed Hitchcock <ECH at ac.dal.ca>
Subject: Re: Another immersion chiller

Steven Smith mentioned his 'hang from the edge of the pot' chiller, which 
sounds pretty cool.  I would like to toot my horn once more and promote the 
joys of the planispiral chiller.  It's a flat coil (like and electric stove 
burner) of 25' of 1/4" OD copper tubing, the last (outer) coil descends to 
the bottom of the pot as a support, and the in/out tubes hang over the side 
also for support.  The disc/coil is suspended an inch or two below the 
surface.  The cooled wort drops to the bottom, warm wort rises up the 
sides.  I've never had to stir my wort to get it to chill properly, the 
convection currents are sufficient.

____________   
Ed Hitchcock	ech at ac.dal.ca	| Oxymoron:  Draft beer in bottles. |
Anatomy & Neurobiology		| Pleonasm:  Draft beer on tap.     |
Dalhousie University, Halifax	|___________________________________|


Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 4 Nov 1993 07:00:03 -0500 (EST)
From: "Richard J. Niziak" <rickn at copley.com>
Subject: Too long a fermentation time.?..

At the end of September, I made a batch of Ocktoberfest and placed
the work, etc into the carboy for fermentation. I have been 
extremely busy since than and haven't yet had the time to bottle
it.. Could someone tell me what problems I could run into when 
I get around to bottling this weekend ??? Like all the yeast is dead
and I won't get any carbonation, or the beer is overly fermented..??

And hopefully some answers to fix those problems...

Thanks in advance,

##########################################################################
				+
Richard J. Niziak		+
Senior Systems Engineer		+	 e:mail    -> rickn at copley.com
Copley Systems			+	 land mail -> Copley Systems, Inc
				+		      165 University Ave
			 	+		      Westwood, MA 02090
				+        voice mail -> (617)320-8300 x305
				+
##########################################################################



Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 4 Nov 93 08:13:48 EST
From: mlobo at sentry.foxboro.com (Michael T. Lobo)
Subject: easy wort chilling method

Greetings:
	After reading todays HBD, I figured I'd put in my 2 cents worth 
regarding wort chilling.  I take the KISS approach ( keep it simple, stupid )

After my boil, I take the 20 qt pot and stick the whole thing into my bathtub
full of cold water  ( my cold water is VERY cold ).  I keep the lid on and in
about 30-40 minutes the temp is down to pitching temp & all I do then is
transfer to the primary, pitch the yeast and have a home brew {:^)

regards,
Michael 

Michael T. Lobo   508 549 2487
Foxboro Co.
mlobo at foxboro.com  "I Love beer, beer loves me; when I drink too much, 
my beer speaks for me" -Monty

Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 4 Nov 93 09:42:26 EST
From: hellerpd at brutus.aa.ab.com (Dave(PD) Heller)
Subject: remove obrien at aa_macmail.aa.ab.com


     Please remove all "obrien at aa.ab.com" or "obrien at aa_macmail.aa.ab.com"
 from your mailing list.  It is a disabled account (for the last year)
 and the monthly digests bounce around our mail queue as the automatic
 return fails on the "reply-to" address.



                                         P.D. Heller
                                         Allen Bradley
                                         Ann Arbor, MI 48103

                                         hellerpd at aa.ab.com

Return to table of contents


Date: 	Wed, 3 Nov 1993 22:32:04 -0900
From: scott at fm.gi.alaska.edu (Scott Stihler (USGS analyst))
Subject: Eisbocks legal

I've discovered some interesting information regarding the legalities of making
eisbocks. There has been some question as to the legality of making an eisbock
since it does involve a form of distillation. Well, a friend of mine who is in 
the process of opening a microbrewery (Ravens Ridge) here in Fairbanks had an 
opportunity to talk to somebody with the BATF. According to this person the 
amount of alcohol concentrated would be insuffient to, in their books, be
considered distillation. Therefore, it is legal for homebrewers to brew eis-
bocks. Now you can brew relaxed, not worried and guilt free.

Cheers,

Scott

Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 4 Nov 1993 11:23:50 -0500 (EST)
From: Kieran O'Connor <koconnor at mailbox.syr.edu>
Subject: Clubs

A note aobut clubs. I recently moved and have been helping ro re-energize 
our club in Syracuse, NY. it seems that the way to go is definitley to 
plan out in advance what will happen at each meeting. We are trying to 
have an educational aspect, then perhaps a tasting, and then the 
socializing part. These events are planned out 6 months in advance, and 
put in the newsletter for long range planning

Also, try toget free advertizing. The local newspaper and the local 
weekly put in free ads. Also, the palce we meet, Clark's Ale House, pays 
for 1/2 of any fylers, etc which have his name on it (as the meeting 
place). One otherthought we got form the AHA annual book--we made 
busniness cards with our name and meeting place--they are in the brew 
shops and beer reatilers. People can pick them up as a reminder for the 
meeting. They're cheap--about 20$/500.


Kieran O'Connor

E-Mail Address: koconnor at mailbox.syr.edu
Syracuse, N.Y. USA




Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 04 Nov 93 10:50 CDT
From: Eric Saidel <SAIDEL at macc.wisc.edu>
Subject: Cider

Coyote suggests a few ways to get apples/and pressing cheap -
here's another:  if there are orchards in your area there are
certainly *abandoned* orchards in your area - these offer
a bit more challenge, but lots of apples - for free (or almost,
usually the owners are happy if you give them a coupld of
gallons of your sweet cider).
 
The advantages - this greatly reduces your price to the price
of pressing (it costs us 60 cents a gallon - for something like
140 gallons this year).  And you get more variety - in my experience
it's the variety that makes for good cider.
 
 - eric saidel
 

Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 4 Nov 93 08:57:26 PST
From: dra at jsc-ws.sharpwa.com (Darren Aaberge)
Subject: Rye and Spruce

The last issue of Brewing Techniques has an article about using rye in beer.
Basically it sounds like you use rye as you would use wheat in a wheat beer.
This article has made me curious about using rye and I was wondering if 
anyone has tried it.  If so, what`s it like?  Is it like wheat beer or is it 
totally different.

The article gave the following recipe:

8 lbs pale malt
4 lbs rye malt
1/2 oz Centennial (bittering)
3/4 oz Northern Brewer (finish)
1/2 oz Centennial (finish)
2 tsp Irish Moss
Wyeast 1056

Has anyone tried this recipe?  Does anyone know of a source of malted rye?  I
checked my local homebrew shop (Steinbart's in Portland, Oregon), they didn't
have malted rye but they did have flaked rye.  

Regarding the recent thread on spruce beer, I have brewed spruce beer using 
fresh growths off of a spruce tree.  The flavor you get from it does not
remotely resemble pine-sol.  From reading recent posts it sounds like the 
people who are using spruce essence are the ones with bad experiences.  Maybe
this says more about the quality of spruce essence than the flavor of
spruce beer.

Darren Aaberge
 

Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 4 Nov 1993 14:01:42 -0500
From: esonn1 at cc.swarthmore.edu
Subject: College brewers

Hola,
        As a college student I've noticed quite a few student brewers on
campus here (Swarthmore College) and I wondered how many of the people in
HBD land are student brewers.  Considering the stereotype of college beer
consumption is keg stands and funneling, it would be interesting to talk
with students who actually drink good (home)brew rather than whatever's on
special.  I've seen _many_ addresses on postings from colleges and
universities, but it seems most of the postings are written by people a bit
older than the average college student.  If you're a student brewer, drop
me a line via direct e-mail.  I hope to do a features type article on
college brewers and sell it to a newspaper or two.  

Eugene
esonn1 at cc.swarthmore.edu


Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 4 Nov 1993 13:08:52 -0600 (CST)
From: Kenneth Wagner <WAGNER at LUB001.LAMAR.EDU>
Subject: help


Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 4 Nov 1993 15:52:28 -0500 (EST)
From: "Tim Tillman (BIO)" <tillman at chuma.cas.usf.edu>
Subject: Re: diastatic malt powder/

In HBD #1263 Jill Martz asks...

>We are relativey new at homebrewing and I was wondering if anyone could
>tell me about diastatic malt powder.

Diastatic Malt Extract is an extract with the ability to hydrolyze starches
into simple sugars.  This is what the enzymes in malted grains do during
the mash cycle of all grain brewing.



Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 4 Nov 93 14:36:48 +0100
From: steve_t at fleurie.inria.fr (Steven Tollefsrud)
Subject: Convert to all-grain?

I've been brewing with extract (usually Munton) on and off
for about 6 years. I started with Williams Brewkits when I
lived in Phoenix, then quit for about 3 years when I lived
in Munich, Germany (seemed a bit pointless because the beer
there is cheaper than water and I was "researching" the
beers, the breweries, and the biergartens, leaving no time
for even extract brewing). My brewing stuff collected dust
in a german keller for three years. Then I moved to the south
of France a couple of years ago and found myself in a relative
beer desert (well, Munich would be a tough act to follow no
matter where I moved). So I dusted off my fermenter and brewkettle,
hunted down the address of a homebrew supply shop in the UK and
picked up where I'd left off in Phoenix. I started with some
basic IPAs and Steam beers, and started experimenting with various
grains and yeast types. The results were surprisingly well received
by the French natives (a discriminating people, especially in matters
of the palate). This was very encouraging. 

A colleague at work turned me on to the internet and HBD about
a year ago. I tuned in just about the time of Jack Smegmling's [sp?]
holier than thou pronouncements along the lines that extract brewers
are ignorant, lazy, and not worthy to share the same bandwidth with
real brewers (all-grain). This was very encouraging/. 

Even while I put in a couple of cents in defense of extract brewing,
I knew, deep down in my heart, that I would eventually move on to
all-grain brewing myself: the more I learned about brewing, the
more fascinated I became.

My only reservations are:
	1) Cost of grain: Homebrewing is unheard of in France. I have
	   to have my extract shipped from England. As I'm paying
	   shipping costs for 8-10 lbs of extract per 5 gal. it
	   can add up. How much grain is required to make 5 gallons
	   of all-grain (say OG 1050) and what is the typical cost
	   of the grain ($ or Brit. lbs)? 

	2) Time: One excuse I've always used for not brewing 
	   all-grain is that it is very time intensive. I'm repelled
	   by the image of slaving for hours over a steaming kettle,
	   though I never knew how much time is really necessary
	   to do all-grain brew. With a feisty two year old running 
	   around the house, I have even less time than before. Are
	   we talking half a day or a couple of hours?

	3) Information sources: Just lurking around the HBD provides
	   a lot of information. You guys (and ladies) are great!
	   But I would need a good, detailed 'How-to' manual. The
	   problem is that I don't have a homebrew store to go to
	   and would have to order books in English through the
	   local French bookstore, ie: without seeing the book first.
	   If I were to buy one book that details the equipment and
	   procedures, what is the best one to order? Why? 
	   (publisher please)

Steve Tollefsrud

steve_t at fleurie.compass.fr

	   

Return to table of contents



End of HOMEBREW Digest #1265, 11/06/93