FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Rob Gardner, Digest Coordinator


Contents:
  SS Kegs (Wolfe)
  Counterflow Wort Chillers (Jeff Frane)
  Hop Flavor (George J Fix)
  Re:  Kraeusening (Troy Howard)
  Chiller Tip, Second on Salvator (KENT)
  No airlock activity & Black and Tan (Keith MacNeal  02-Nov-1993 1243)
  Your opinion on kits...? (Heather)
  Making plugs from homegrown hops (Tom Kaltenbach)
  Labels and Florida Homebrew Weekender (BIO)" <tillman at chuma.cas.usf.edu>
  RE: melanoidins (Darryl Richman)
  krausing (David Klein)
  Stainless Steel Kegs in the UK                                    (gbgg5tt5)
  Re: Short bags of DME (BIO)" <tillman at chuma.cas.usf.edu>
  Re: Sparging Questions (Jim Grady)
  Business Week Article (gcw)
  Going all grain,questions (taylor)
  maplbrew.txt (Bob_McIlvaine)
  On making bread (et al) from spent grain (Jan Holloway)
  German Wheat Yeast (andrewwf)
  Dry hopping temperatures (npyle)
  Hop Vines & extract storage (David Atkins)
  Distilling alchohol (MWB5489)
  Hop back effect (Spencer.W.Thomas)
  Celis Grand Cru a tripel? (Spencer.W.Thomas)
  Missing Hops FAQ 3/5 (Todd Thompson)
  methanol/unmalted wheat/spe ("Daniel F McConnell")
  sake-brewing (Bryan Kornreich)
  Yet another Bud ad (Philip . Miller)


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----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 2 Nov 93 10:33 CST
From: Wolfe at act-12-po.act.org
Subject: SS Kegs

     Thanks to everyone who responded to my questions about
mashing/lautering.  I located 2 15.5 gallon SS kegs, so I bought them with
the intent of turning one into a mash/lauter tun and the other into a
boiling kettle.  I'll probably be doing 10 gallon batches by the new
year!  The mash/lauter tun will probably be of the EasyMasher variety, and
the boiling kettle will have a spigot so that I can also use it as a
settling tank.

     Can anyone out there offer guidance in converting these kegs?  I need
answers to questions like:  How should they be cut?  Which end should
be cut (on the valved end, I suppose)?  Where on the keg should the cut be
made (top or side)?  How many inches from the bottom should I install the
manifold outlet on the mash/lauter tun (right AT the bottom, I suppose)?
How many inches from the bottom of the boiler should I install the spigot
(i.e., How much sediment can I expect from a 10 gallon batch)?

Thanks in advance,

Ed Wolfe
WOLFE at act-12-po.ACT.org

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Date: Tue, 2 Nov 1993 08:53:10 -0800 (PST)
From: gummitch at teleport.com (Jeff Frane)
Subject: Counterflow Wort Chillers

I only chime in because I don't want anyone to get the impression that
just because Jack Schmidling is adamant he is also correct.   There are
a good many reasons why someone would choose a counter-flow wort chiller
over an immersion chiller, that have nothing to do with scale.  If Jack
had come to my presentation last year in Milwaukee, he'd know that.

Briefly, my reasons are simple: it's faster, the wort arrives in the
fermenter at the correct temperature without being unduly exposed to the
air or sitting around in a kettle while I stir the damn thing, and
<important> the only "stuff" that arrives in the fermenter besides the
wort is some cold break, which precipitates out magnificently and from
then on doesn't pose any problems, because IT WILL NOT BE REABSORBED
INTO THE WORT.  The wort does not have to be racked off the cold break.

That presentation, by the way, was published in the last volume from the
AHA, and includes scientific references, instructions on how to build an
inexpensive counter-flow wort chiller, how to siphon bright wort out of
the kettle (hint: whirlpool), and a number of variations on immersion
wort chillers, courtesy of the internet homebrew crowd.

But, once again JACK HAS SPOKEN.  Be advised, however, that in the past
Jack has spoken through his hat more than once.  More than twice, for
that matter.  But I can see it now: "Real brewers only brew all-grain."
"Real brewers culture their own yeast (although once upon a time liquid
yeast was for snobs, remember, Jack?)." and now: "Real brewers use an
immersion chiller."  Pffft.

- --Jeff Frane


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Date: Tue, 2 Nov 93 11:37:59 -0600
From: gjfix at utamat.uta.edu (George J Fix)
Subject: Hop Flavor

I have always had a strong preference for low alpha aroma hops, even for
early additions for bittering. I find that they give (if fresh!) a clean
and mellow bitter, which contrasts with the crude effects I pick up
from high alphas.

There is a large literature on this subject. Perhaps the most influential
has been the paper by Rigby which appeared in the 1970s (ASBC Proc.,1972).
He identified co-humulone as the hop resin that was responsible for the
"high alpha taste". Bishop, et al (J. Inst. Br.,1974) reproduced these results,
and in addition showed the isomerized fraction from co-humulone was
foam negative. The other humulone analogs exert a positive influence
on beer foam. All of this jives with my own brewing experiences. In addition,
all of the high alpha varieties known to me have much higher co-humulone values
than aroma hops.

Recently Wachesbauer (Berlin) has called these results into question. The
original papers appeared in Monatsschrift fur Brauwissenchaft, although
English translations can be found in the 1993 editions of Brauwelt. He
brewed beers with each of the humulone analogs added as pure extracts. No
differences in the hop flavors were detected, although his study confirmed 
Bishop's findings about effects on beer foam.

These findings are consistent with the work of Professor Narziss and his
students. They have long insisted it is the hop oils that are the most
important. While most of these are removed during the boil (and possibly
the fermentation as well), residuals coming even from early hop additions have
been measured in finished beer. They tend to have very low flavor thresholds,
so their effect on taste may be way out of proportion to their concentration.
In terms of the hydrocarbon fraction, they cited the ratio

       alpha-humulene/ myrcene

as an important parameter. Values >1.5 were reported to give a "refined flavor"
(for Narziss, flavor= smell and taste), while values <1.0 had the opposite
effect. Some oxidation products such as beta-farnesene and trans-geranoil were
also cited as negative factors. They reported the following:

KEY: Hmfr = Hallentauer Mittelfruh (German), S = Saaz , Cas = Cascade (US),
     Clu = Cluster (US) (Ugh!), BG = Brewer's Gold (German) (Double Ugh!).
UNITS: mg/kg

            HMfr       S      Cas       Clu     BG
           ------    ------  ------    ------ ------
myrcene    2642       1049    3194      2536   7767
humulene   5095       3512    4341      1689   5092
ratio      1.93       3.35    1.36      .67    .66
geranoil     10         12     53        80    186

The numbers speak for themselves. While Clusters are technically a moderate
alpha hop, my experiences with them have been similar to those with BG,
and in both cases the results have not been very happy ones. This is of course
a highly subjective evaluation. What may be "crude" to one palate may be 
"complex and interesting" to another.

I talked to Glenn Tinseth on Monday (ordering hops from the new crop), and the 
values he reported look good. Particularly impressive are how well the new
aroma varieties (Liberty and Mt. Hood) are doing vis-a-vis the above criteria.
He mentioned that the European aroma hops from the 1993 crop will be
available in ~month.

Glenn also noted that his sales of Styrian Golding have been very slow, and
that many brewers are uncertain what to do with this variety. In this regard,
permit me to cite Michael Jackson's new book (which BTW is excellent). He
mentions this hop quite a few times, and notes it is highly prized in the
UK both as a finishing and dry hop. I competely agree with this, and feel it
does well in select lagers as well. It is certainly worth exploring for those
who have not done so.

 -George Fix



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Date: Tue, 2 Nov 93 09:06:28 PST
From: troy at scubed.scubed.com (Troy Howard)
Subject: Re:  Kraeusening


haist at cogsci.UCSD.EDU (Frank Haist) says:


>    Next weekend I'm going to make my initial foray into all-grain
>brewing, but first I'd like to tap some of sage advice from this
>group.  My current set-up for fermenting includes two 5-gallon
>carboys.  After spending the money for most of the all-grain
>equipment, I decided to wait on a 7-gallon cb.  Based on most recipes
>it looks like I can expect about 5.5 gallons of wort after the boil.
>that will yield about 5 gal after fermenting blowoff.  I'm planning to
>take the initial 1/2 gallon excess, store it (via standard canning
>procedures for sanitation), and then use it to kraeusen the beer
>prior to bottling.  This seems to have three immediate advantages:
>1) I can continue my preferred method of primary and secondary
>fermentation in glass carboys, 2) I will end up with a true "all-malt"
>ale, and 3) the final volume will still be about 5 gallons.  I have
>two main questions.  What are people's experiences, good and bad,
>with kraeusening?  Second, how accurate is the equation given by
>Papazian for determining the amount of wort (I guess now called
>>gyle) in getting similar carbonation to 3/4 c corn sugar (Appendix
>3, pp. 331-332)?  Thanks in advance.
>
>- ---Frank
>haist at cogsci.ucsd.edu

Sounds like a great idea.  I have used Papazian's formula for priming
with gyle in a previous batch and it worked out just fine.  The brew
carbonated quite well.

Miller, on the other hand, suggests that priming with gyle or malt extract
can be unpredictable.  I have primed several times with DME and had no
problems.  I have only primed once with gyle so I cannot comment on its
repeatability.  Note, though, the reason I did not continue with gyle
priming was because it was inconvenient, not for any performance-related
problems. 

On the other hand, one advantage to priming with either DME or gyle
instead of corn sugar is that, if you prime with corn sugar the yeast will
exhibit what is known as the Crabtree effect and (even in the presence of
oxygen) will ferment (instead of respire) thus leaving oxygen in your
bottles.  If you prime with DME or gyle, the yeast will first go through
a minor respiration phase, consuming the oxygen, before they transition
to fermentation.

 -Troy





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Date: Tue, 02 Nov 1993 18:52:49 +0100
From: KENT at lecs.ericsson.se
Subject: Chiller Tip, Second on Salvator

I have a small immersion chiller (used some copper tubing I already had) that
was not working quickly enough.  I connect the chiller to the kitchen faucet
while the boiling pot is in one basin of a two-basin kitchen sink.  What I did
to improve the performance of the chiller is run the output back into the 
basin with the pot, and run a small siphon from the first basin to the second.
The water coming out of the siphon is really hot!  This cut my cooling times
at least in half. (your mileage may vary - a decent chiller probably wouldnt
gain as much from this).  Much cheaper than building a new one!  I also
appreciated the tips about shaking the chiller to stir the wort (I'm
going to try that next time), and installing the chiller in your kettle
LID (The cops would really bust you for that setup ;^).

I would like to second the recent request for a Salvator type recipe
 .  How do they make that stuff so sweet ? I thought it tasted of
licorice (sp?) as well.  Any time I try to make a high gravity
dark beer it ends up becoming to dry (and sometimes even harsh) 
after a few months in the bottle.  (Havent been able to maintain
cold temperatures for real lagering yet ;()

This sig intentionally left blank.
Jim Kent
kent at lecs.ericsson.se

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Date: Tue, 2 Nov 93 12:53:45 EST
From: Keith MacNeal 02-Nov-1993 1243 <macneal at pate.enet.dec.com>
Subject: No airlock activity & Black and Tan

In Homebrew Digest #1261 (November 02, 1993) SHAMAN at WHARTON writes:

;I'm a new brewer working on my second batch. I started this one 7
;days ago and so far there has been no fermentation that I can detect--
;the airlock hasn't bubbled once. 

I had this problem in a recent batch.  Turns out I didn't have the lid of my 
plastic primary snapped down tightly.  It might have fermented just fine. 
Look for other signs of fermentation such as a heavy sediment, signs of
krausen (foam), a drop in the specific gravity. 

Also in Homebrew Digest #1261 (November 02, 1993) J. Michael Diehl writes:

>I recall once having a "black and tan."  I just whish I could remember what 
>was in it.  It was a dark beer and a light beer floating on each other.  
>Wonderfull drink, if I'm remembering it right.  Any one know how to make one?

Take a pint glass and fill it half way with Bass Ale.  Finish filling the 
glass with Guinness Stout.  To prevent the layers from mixing while doing 
this, pour the Guinness over the back of a spoon.  Other variations can be 
made by varying the ale and stout used.

There is a Black & Tan available in bottles.  It's put out by a brewery in 
Saranac, NY (USA).  Obviously it's not layered.  I believe the label says they 
mix one of their lagers with one of their porters and bottle it.  Not a bad 
brew.

Keith MacNeal
Digital Equipment Corp.
Hudson, MA

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Date:         Mon, 01 Nov 93 20:31:22 EST
From: Heather <ST101834 at BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU>
Subject:      Your opinion on kits...?

Hello all -

I'm interested in buying my father a (smallish) homebrewing kit for
Christmas.  Although we both love beer, neither of us has ever attempted
to make it before, and I'd like to know what your opinions are:

1) Should I buy a kit? Or are there a few essential pieces I can put together
   myself?

2) What's the approxiamet cost of it all?

3) What are considered "good brands" by the market?

Thanks!      Heather Seal - st101834 at brownvm.brown.edu

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Date: Tue, 2 Nov 93 20:37 EST
From: tom at kalten.bach1.sai.com (Tom Kaltenbach)
Subject: Making plugs from homegrown hops


Hi All,

   The recent Hops FAQ has got me wondering again about hop plugs.  For 
those of you who are not familiar with them, they consist of dried whole 
hops, compressed into a 1-inch diameter cylinder that's 3 or 4 inches long.  
The plugs are segmented so that it is easy to break off smaller chunks.  
Plugs have the storage and convenience advantages of pelletized hops, and 
the advantages of whole hops in the boil (i.e. no pulp to clog filters, 
strainers, etc.).  However, they are only available at a few places, 
usually only come in 5 or 6 varieties of imported hops, and are a little 
more expensive:  $6-$7 for a 5-ounce package.

   Now for my question:  has anybody tried making their own plugs with 
homegrown hops?  It seems like you would just need a press of some sort, 
and a mold to form the hops into a convenient shape (i.e. plugs).  Any 
ideas?

Tom Kaltenbach
Rochester, New York, USA
tom at kalten.bach1.sai.com

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Date: Tue, 2 Nov 1993 21:05:22 -0500 (EST)
From: "Tim Tillman (BIO)" <tillman at chuma.cas.usf.edu>
Subject: Labels and Florida Homebrew Weekender



>>   One comment on using Ammonia to remove lables, works great one them, 
>>   except, an Etna Lager lable, they use a rubbery glue, the ammonia helps, 
>>   butt... let'em soak a day or two.
 
 
The easiest way to remove labels that I have ound is this.  First, buy a large
plastic garbage can with lid.  You know, the Rubbermaid type.  Then take about
one cup of tri-sodium phosphate and put it into the garbage can.  Fill tha
garbage can about 2/3 - 3/4 full of water.  Add 1 cup of bleach, and mix well.  
 
Next, as you get empty bottles, just put them in the can.  After about one day,
maybe two the labels will slide right off.  Rinse well and their ready
for beer.  Labels with a layer of foil such as Negra Modelo, may take longer.

- -----
 
BTW, I got no response to my request for homebrewers in Florida to contact
me if they were interested in a homebrewer's weekend meet.  So, I'll ask
again...
 
Is anyone interested in setting up a Florida homebrewer's weekend meet?  I see
possibly having the following:
 
            1.  Local venders.  (The Home Brewery, Hart's, Best Brew, others)
            2.  A seminar for new brewers.
            3.  A seminar for advanced brewers.
            4.  A beer contest, if we can get qualified judges.  Possibly
                merchandise prizes. 
 
Who's interested?  
 
 
Tim Tillman - Assistant Beer SYSOP, GEnie

M.TILLMAN1 at genie.geis.com
tillman at chuma.cas.usf.edu
 
 




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Date: Tue,  2 Nov 93 10:28:48 TZ
From: Darryl Richman <darrylri at microsoft.com>
Subject: RE: melanoidins

I just want to go on a bit about melanoidins...  Please keep in mind 
that I am discussing points in Jones' and Millspaw's article and not 
any conclusions Norm Pyle may have come to as a result of them in the 
following.

npyle at n33.stortek.com writes, quoting Jones and Millspaw's "Beer 
Stability" in Zymurgy winter 1992:
> "Melanoidins are stable complexes formed at high (mash-out) 
temperatures, they
> are colloidal in nature and are powerful reducing agents giving an acid
> reaction in aqueous solutions."

Melanoidins can be formed at nearly any temperature, but they really 
take off at boiling temperature.  You can (and do) get melanoidin 
formation in your malt extract syrup at room temperature, if you wait a 
bit.  But they need to be in a "drying" or relatively low moisture 
environment to make it happen.  Melanoidin formation, or nonenzymatic 
browning (NEB) as it is more generally known in the food industry, is 
responsible for a large number of reactions.  Bread crust formation, 
meat browning, and baked potato character are all results of NEB.  You 
can see that these are surface reactions, where water is being 
evaporated out of the food (a drying situation).

That's why microwaved meat is so unappetizing:  there is very little 
NEB going on, so there is little of that roasted meat aroma and caramel 
brown color.  Similarly, this is not the situation in infusion mashing. 
 Decoction mashing, on the other hand, would seem to have more of the 
right conditions, and is noted for the malty character of the beers it 
produces.

Each combination of an amino acid and a sugar molecule forms a 
different melanoidin, so you can see that there are many thousands of 
possible resulting ones.  Also, if the reaction is not strongly driven 
by the right situation (temperature, low moisture), it has a tendencay 
to fall back into its component ingredients.  Unless you have a long 
time, temperatures under 100C just won't produce a lot of melanoidins.  
Pale malt, for example, is kilned at 80C for a number of hours, and 
produces only small amounts of melanoidins.  Darker malts, Viennas and 
Munichs, are dried to 10% moisture at 80C and then raised to as much as 
120C to enhance the melanoidin formation and, therefore, color and flavor.

In infusion mashed beers, most of the melanoidin content is coming from 
the original malt and perhaps the boil, if a kettle is in use that 
isn't wetted by wort (where the metal temperature will get 
significantly above 100C and the wort will caramelize or undergo NEB).

> beer.  Melanoidins formed at 170 degrees F (76.5 degrees C) are more stable
> than those formed at the lower temperatures of conventional mashing.  Adding
> specialty malts only in the mash-out can make the mash more efficient by
> maximizing the formation of melandoidins, optimizing saccharifications and
> eliminating steeping vessels and/or grain bags."

I would really like to know why holding these grains back is necessary; 
 the reaction is less favored at lower temperatures, so little of it 
goes on.  When the situation becomes appropriate, there are still 
plenty of raw ingredients (simple sugars, amino acids) to continue.  
(Narziss, in "der Bierbrauerei" volume 1, claims that only a few 
percent of the FAN (free amino nitrogen, a measure of simple amino 
acids) and the reducing sugars are consumed in making even the darkest 
of malts.)

		--Darryl Richman

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Date: Tue, 2 Nov 93 18:41:18 PST
From: klein at physics.Berkeley.EDU (David Klein)
Subject: krausing


On Kraeusining...
  
I've been toying with the idea of kraeusing my higher gravity beers just
before botteling with fresh yeast (not with raw malt extract as Charlie P
claims is the way to do it).
 
My reason for doing this follows from reoports of better carbonation of high
gravity brews with fresh yeast at time of priming (this is bottle carbonation
obviously). I have noticed that normal priming levels are unreliable for high
gravity brews and often undercarbonate, and sometimes leave some bottles
with very low carbonation.

I am a practical brewer however, and dont feel like bringing up yeast
solely to krause. I do, however, tend to brew the same day that I bottle
and thus have a starter ready to pitch anyway. BUT my worry is that this
new yeast will like some stuff the old yeast did not, and in a high grav brew
will eat some more of the "unfermentables" leaving me with bottle bombs.
(i tend to bring up different yeast for each brew)

I would like to keep from making and extra starter (but will if needed) so
I was curious what experiences have been with using different yeast to
prime than to ferment.. any bottle bombs? (with high gravity beer in
particular)

also even with another starter, the possibility of mutations, or just young
eager yeast seems to open the door for further attinuation, has anyone
had trouble with bottle bombs when krausing with the same yeast?

Dave

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Date: Wed, 03 Nov 93 05:23:28 EST
From: gbgg5tt5 at ibmmail.COM
Subject: Stainless Steel Kegs in the UK                                   

- ----------------------- Mail item text follows ---------------

To: INTERNET--IBMMAIL

From: Paul Slater (PWS)
      (0242-236111) Ext. 2296
      CMS33  at  GBMGRC00, GBGG5TT5  at  IBMMAIL
Subject: Stainless Steel Kegs in the UK

>Does anyone know IF you can get stainless steel kegs in the UK? and if not are
there any UK people who can suggest a cheap source of stainless brew kettles
etc?

I use a stainless steel Burco Boiler (wash boiler) that holds about 6 gallons.
It has an electric element like a kettle and a tap near the bottom. Some have
a tap about half-way up the side which isn't as handy. If I were to modify it
I would fit a proper perforated false bottom, and a simmer control rather than
the on-off thermostat control it already has. I've seen 3 or 4 in second-hand
junk shops, and mine cost 15 pounds. Well worth it, especially when I get
round to modifying it to stop the tap clogging occasionally.

Paul Slater
gbgg5tt5 at ibmmail.com


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Date: Wed, 3 Nov 1993 06:25:54 -0500 (EST)
From: "Tim Tillman (BIO)" <tillman at chuma.cas.usf.edu>
Subject: Re: Short bags of DME


Mike I. wrote recently thathe accidentally made a low gravity ale because he
was shorted on the weight of his DME bags.  I suggest that you first contact
the vender and explain the problem before writting them off as a source of
supplies.  It could have been an honest mistake.  If they make the deal good,
and often a small business man will do just that, then he comes out ahead.
If not, well, take your business elsewhere.

Just my opinion.

Tim Tillman, Assistant Beer SYSOP, GEnie.





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Date: Wed, 3 Nov 93 7:09:34 EST
From: Jim Grady <grady at hpangrt.an.hp.com>
Subject: Re: Sparging Questions

In HBD #1261 Ed asks:

> Sparging -
> What is the best way to sparge. Should you?
> 1) Completely drain the bed, then sparge in one of the following ways?
> 2) Just match the additions to the drainings?
> 3) Sprinkle in all the water at once?
> 4) Others.

I have made 3 all-grain batches (you can use that to qualify my answer)
and have tried 2 & 3.  My understanding is that with option 1 you run
the risk of compacting your grain bed and may be more prone to a stuck
sparge.  I think option 2 is the way sparging is most frequently
described and that is what I did for my first 2 batches.  What I have
gleaned from others is that the water level should remain at least 1"
above the top of the grain bed and that water being added should not
disturb the grain bed.  I found that running the sparge water through a
colander does a nice job of keeping the grain bed undisturbed.

On my last batch, I tried option 3; this has also been referred to as
batch sparging.  I put all the sparge water into a picnic cooler with a
slotted copper manifold, added the mash and waited about a half an hour.
Overall, it worked quite well but I would offer this caution.  When I
made my first two batches, I had not preheated enough sparge water so I
did not get as much wort as I expected.  When I did a batch sparge, I
increased the sparge water and I overshot & had to stop draining before
all the sparge water was gone - no more room in the brewpot and I was
not ready to sign up for a 3 hour boil.  Thus I ended up with a lower
gravity wort than I anticipated (1.040 instead of 1.050; still quite
respectable though).  The reason there is any difference between the two
methods is that when you add all the sparge water at once, the sugars
are mixed pretty uniformily through out the sparge water.  When you add
sparge water as you drain off the wort, the first runnings will have
more sugar in them than the last.  Thus if you stop early, you have left
fewer sugars behind. 

Once you have your recipe down and know how much sparge water you need,
I don't think it makes too much difference except that batch sparging
will require less attention from the brewer.

- --
Jim Grady       |"Immediately after Orville Wright's historic 12 second
grady at an.hp.com | flight, his luggage could not be located."
                |                       S. Harris

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Date: Wed, 3 Nov 93 09:21 EST
From: gcw at lydian.att.com
Subject: Business Week Article

In the October 25 Business Week (page 95) there is a article in the
"Developments to Watch" section about gene-splicing and how Shiladitya
Dassarma (professor of molecular genetics at U. Mass (Amherst)) spliced
genes from bacteria that float to oil eating bacterium that didn't so
that these bacterium would stay at the water surface and keep eating
oil. The article goes on to say how "Next may come reengineered yeast
for beer-making. Dassarma says the yeast would float to the top of the
vat to be skimmed off - so the beer wouldn't have to be filtered."

This will most likely work for lager yeast, but for ale yeast I would
think that the dead yeast cells would reduce the available surface area
for the live yeast cells to do there thing.

Geoff Woods

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Date: Wed, 3 Nov 93 09:31:15 EST
From: taylor at e5sf.hweng.syr.ge.com (taylor)
Subject: Going all grain,questions

I have some questions about all grain brewing,  Hopfully I will be able to 
brew my first batch of all grain this weekend but first I have some questions.
I plan on using a cooler for a lauter tun, the problem I have is that
my boiling pot is only 3-4 gallons.
  
My question is, can I make an initial wort of 3 - 3.5 gallons in the cooler 
and add more water to my fermenter after the boil to make a 5 gallon batch?
  
This is what I do for extracts and it works good.  I realize that it's better
 to add water for the hole batch up-front but I don't want to spend alot of
 $$ for equipment until I know what I'm doing.  Or should I just make a 3 gallon
batch to start with?

How much grain would I use if I can add water to the wort later?  Would I use
enough grain for a 5 gallon batch up-front?  Which is ?  What would the brewer
community recommand I do? 

How much grain should be used per gallon of water?

What temp is good in the lauter tun and for how long?

Any info would be appreciated..    Todd    I realize this info is availible in
books but I don't have mine a neighbor borrowed it?  I hope I understand the 
process.........thanks 

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Date: Wed, 03 Nov 93 10:44:59 EST
From: Bob_McIlvaine at keyfile.com
Subject: maplbrew.txt

I mentioned that I had a couple of maple
sap brew recipes and several people
asked for them...so here they are.
Taken from a maple sap cook book
found at a sappers festival.

SAP BREW #1:
Leona Foote - Warren , NH
Use the last run sap and boil down about
half way. Boil checkerberry leaves, pip-
sis-o-way and hemlock tips separately
and then add sap. Put in barrell to work,
put in bung when fully worked. In the
middle of summer, during haying, chill
and enjoy. (sorry no amounts were
available on the ingredients.

SAP BREW #2:
Althea Clark - Bridgewater, NH
1 lb. hops
10 lbs. malt
6 yeast cakes
2 oz. checkerberry
Boil down sap, 5 gal. to make 1gal.
Boil enough sap to fill a 50 gal.
barrel. This is an 1885 family recipe
and came with no instructions.
Good Luck!

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Date: Wed, 3 Nov 1993 09:55:51 -0500
From: holloway at ezmail2.ucs.indiana.edu (Jan Holloway)
Subject: On making bread (et al) from spent grain

Chris (dcm at kepler.unh.edu, HBD 1262, 11/3) asks about bread ideas from
spent grain. Good question. 

During a spate of all-grain brewing (ah those were the days) I'd wonder
what to do with all the good-looking grain leftovers. I tried 'em as
porridge with half & half and brown sugar. Didn't work. They were too
woody, and they look better than they taste by themselves. After all, by
the time they're leftovers, you've mashed & sparged out most of the flavor.
So I tried mixing quantities of the stuff into a basic bran muffin recipe.
Just substitute some of the grain for some of the flour (I played
quantities by feel). I added lots of raisins to boost the moisture and
counteract the woodiness. But I found the texture pleasantly rough (a
delightful gastrointestinal massage). Most of all, I found the muffins
completed the beer experience in a satisfying way. After all, if you eat
the mash from whence cometh the beer you drink, you're living your beer.
Beer: the complete food. 

Bon apetit. --Jan (holloway at indiana.edu)
 


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Date: Wed, 03 Nov 93 10:03:48 EST
From: andrewwf at aol.com
Subject: German Wheat Yeast

As a long-time reader of the HBD I now have the access to send questions, so
here goes: I have recently finished a pumpkin wheat beer using a german wheat
yeast (complete with clove taste) however it seems that the clove taste might
be a little too strong. I remember reading somewhere that if the yeast is
reused then the clove taste will be mellowed, is this true? 

Thanks for the help.

Andrew Fee

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Date: Wed, 3 Nov 93 8:33:49 MST
From: npyle at n33.stortek.com
Subject: Dry hopping temperatures

Jim Busch comments on this from the Hops FAQ:

>>The proper length of time for dry hopping is dependent on the temperature.
>>At ale temperatures, 7-14 days of contact time is widely used.  At lager
>>temperatures, although little data is available, it seems obvious that longer
>>contact times, on the order of 14-21 days, are called for. It is common to
>>use 0.5 - 2.0 oz. or more in a 5 gallon batch, but as always it is up the
>>individual's preferences.
>
>OK, how does temperature affect hop aroma wrt dry hopping?  This doesnt seem
>intuitively obvious to me.  I also would point out that I have dry hopped
>1 BBl batches in the primary (after high krausen and skimming) for a mere
>3 days with excellent results, and I know of a local brewpub that has dry
>hopped with pellets (I use whole) for one day, filtered and served online
>the next, so this will work.  The point is that dry hopping times vary all
>over the spectrum, and I suspect if a heavy hand is used in the amounts,
>time is less important.  I'm still wondering about the lager comment???

I've been taught that virtually all reactions, physical and chemical, are
quickened by higher temperatures (I'm sure there are exceptions).  The process
of dry hopping involves aromatic oils dissolving into solution and probably
reacting chemically as well.  Doesn't it seem obvious to you that higher
temperatures cause this process to happen faster, and that lower temperatures
would slow it down?  When making tea, you can certainly dissolve the sugar
quicker in hot tea than in iced tea.

As far as quantities vs. contact times, it is also obvious to me that if you
use more hops you can get away with less contact time.  You have (at least)
three variables (assuming a fixed amount of hop aromatics):  time, temperature,
quantity.  Probably wort composition at that point has an effect as well.  I
was trying to give some guidelines, not write the New Brewing Bible.

Cheers,
Norm

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Date: Wed, 03 Nov 93 09:40 CDT
From: David Atkins <ATKINS at macc.wisc.edu>
Subject: Hop Vines & extract storage

Jim Busch mentioned the practice of not cutting hop vines, allowing roots to
store energy.  Im no botanist, but Jim does make a good point.  While my biology
days were some time ago, I believe that the roots store many good plant
things--such as chlorophylls, sugars etc--for their winter slumbers.  When
leaves and vines wither, these elements flow to the roots and await the spring.
If you do any leaf or vine cutting, as for any perennial, wait till they
get all brown and dry before removing...or even wait till spring.
 
 
Extract storage:  In planning for the days that I may not live near a homebrew
shop and/or have not yet gotten into the swing of all grain full mash beering,
could anyone offer tips on storing large quantities of liquid or dry extracts.
 
Thanks,
David Atkins
atkins at macc.wisc.edu

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Date:          Wed, 3 Nov 1993 10:01:42 CST
From: MWB5489 at age2.age.uiuc.edu
Subject:       Distilling alchohol

With all the talk about leality and taxes and what not I thought I'd
add in my $.02.  I worked at an ethonal plant for a while before 
coming back to school.    In the plant we made beer in a continuous
process.  It was not batch.  The alchohol content usually ran between
10 and 11%.  I never tasted it, but I was told that it tasted OK.  
Kind of surprizing since the main ingrediants were corn starch that
was converted to dextrose, water, and light steep water (the water 
thats left over after soaking on corn for a day and a half).  Oh,
and yeast.  Some of the bear was run through a massive centrifuge 
that would separate the yeast from the beer.  We then put the yeast
back in the first fermentor tank. The first tanks we added air.  This
was supposed to help the yeast reproduce.  The later tanks we did not 
add air.  The yeasts were supposedly switching over and producing 
alchohol.  We ran the 10% beer thru a set of distilation columns at
2000+ GPM.  Fusel oils were removed from the process, at only a few
gallons per HOUR.  There was not fusel oil in the stuff.  We removed
it because if we didn't it would block the column.  The fusel oil 
comes off in certain trays which depend upon the pressure 
(temperature) that the column runs at.  After the regular column we
distilled it up to 200 proof by adding cyclohexane.  I was told that 
the 200 proof mixed 50/50 with water tasted like a very good vodka, 
but I never tried it.  To be used in gasoline the proof had to be 
199.4 (or was it 199.6?).  The small amount of fusel oils could be 
added back in.  When it was sold to add to gasoline it was denatured 
with 5% gas.  This is so the BATF is happy and no one will drink it.  
If it was sold for industrial used it was denatured with 5% methanol. 
If it was not denatured it had to be sold to some that was bonded so 
that they would worry about the taxes.  The taxes that are so high are 
not paid if the alchohol is not for consumpsion.
    As far as distillation by a private individual, I have a friend 
that was making ethonal to run in his car.  He got free starch, free 
wood to run his still, etc.  The only thing he had to buy was alpha 
amalose to convert the starch.  In order to run his still he had to 
buy a $500 liscense.  This allowed him to run the still and use the 
ethanol for personal use, ie on his property or in his car.  I don't
know if it meant he could drink it, although I don't see why not.  He 
finally gave up.  With the liscense and the alpha amalose as his 
major costs he could come out slightly ahead.  After the novelty wore 
off and he got tired of putting major amounts of time into it he 
quit.  So,....Distillation is legal for individuals, but it costs
big bucks.
Mark W. Blunier   mwb5489 at age2.age.uiuc.edu
Graduate work is a test.  It is only a test.
If it had been an actual job it would have decent pay, decent hours,
and benefits.Mark W. Blunier
MWB5489 at AGE2.AGE.UIUC.EDU

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Date: Wed, 3 Nov 93 11:13:56 EST
From: Spencer.W.Thomas at med.umich.edu
Subject: Hop back effect

I said:
 > All this discussion sounds like a good argument for a hop-back.

This morning, while I was looking for something else, I found a
relevant comment from Donald O'Connor, who wrote:

 > If you have any doubt about the incredibly vast difference
 > of hop aroma and flavor betwenn using the same type of hop in (I believe)
 > nearly equal amounts in two different ways, just compare Sierra Nevada
 > Pale Ale and Anchor Liberty Ale.  Both use Cascade finishing hops.
 > One is dry-hopped and the other uses a hop back.

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Date: Wed, 3 Nov 93 11:24:15 EST
From: Spencer.W.Thomas at med.umich.edu
Subject: Celis Grand Cru a tripel?

I'm writing a "profile" article for our club newsletter on the Belgian
Tripel style, and I like to include some commercial examples.  One
problem is that they have to be beers that are available in Michigan,
and there are only a few that I know of: Affligem and Mateen for sure,
and then some that are less clear.  

For example, it seems to me that the Celis Grand Cru is close to a
tripel in style, if perhaps not quite up to the usual alcohol level.
What do you think?

And how about Corsendonk "Monk's Pale"?

Please respond by e-mail, I'll summarize to the digest if I get any
interesting/useful responses.

=Spencer W. Thomas 		|  Info Tech and Networking, B1911 CFOB, 0704
   "Genome Informatician"	|  Univ of Michigan, Ann Arbor, MI 48109
Spencer.W.Thomas at med.umich.edu	|  313-764-8065, FAX 313-764-4133

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Date: Wed, 3 Nov 93 08:30:25 PST
From: todd at ted.hac.com (Todd Thompson)
Subject: Missing Hops FAQ 3/5


Was the Hops FAQ 3/5 ever posted? If so, could somebody please
repost 'cause it never made it here. Thanks.

Prost!

Todd
toddthom at hac2arpa.hac.com

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Date: 3 Nov 1993 11:19:51 -0400
From: "Daniel F McConnell" <Daniel_F_McConnell at mailgw.surg.med.umich.edu>
Subject: methanol/unmalted wheat/spe

Subject:  methanol/unmalted wheat/spent grain bread/Wilt

>From Jack:
>Well put.  Just because methanol boils off when distilling, does not mean 
>there is any to boil off in the mash.  For a simple example, ponder making 
>brandy....  You start out with a nice drinkable wine and distill it to leave 
> most of the water behind.  If there were enough methanol to cause blindness 
> in the distillate, you wouldn't want to drink the wine in the first place.  
> The same thing applies to whiskey mash.  Methanol comes from petroleum
>
>There is nothing you can do to a still full of wine to make it produce 
> dangerous quantities of methanol and you can consider a kettle full of 
> whiskey mash just a very new "wine" for the sake of this discussion.

Yeast produce a number of alcohols during fermentation depending on the source
of 
carbon (food), strain, ferment temp. etc etc.  All alcohol causes intoxication
and is 
poisonous-some forms much more than others.  Lightin' distillations have been 
notorious for containing methanol.  Why?  1-product adulteration by producers, 
2-BATF scare tactics, ie. misinformation (anyone actually met a person blinded
by 
an honest and clean home distillation?  Or a jug of moonshine for that matter. 
NOT 
Sterno or Xerox fluid.) 3-poor distillation technique,  or 4-Based on fact. 
IMHO the real 
questions  are:  Does the fermentation of corn, rye or *other stuff* favor the
increased 
production of  methanol over ethanol?  *other stuff* would be very significant.
 I suspect 
the answer is yes.  I also suspect that wine/brandy would be less of a problem
in this 
regard.
Does the strain of yeast/bacteria (ie sour mash or whatever whiskey 
makers do) effect the increased production of methanol over ethanol?  Again I
suspect 
the answer is yes.  We all know what happens when beer fermentations are run at
high 
temperatures-high alcohol and other byproducts, some strains are much more
prone to 
this behavior.  Headaches are a symptom of this alchohol toxcity.

I assume that only GOOD, CLEAN BEER would make GOOD, CLEAN SCOTCH...Ah! a good 
question for Michael Jackson.

Distillation will concentrate only what you want it to by collection only
during the 
temperature range that you want.  Of course this is technique and equipment 
dependant.  For alcohols, methanol comes off first (65C) followed by ethanol
(78.5) 
propanol (97), water (100), butanol (117) etc.  Don't drink the methanol,
propanol or 
anything that boils higher.  Don't ferment and distill garbage.

 >Malted grain is friable and crumbly.  When gently squeezed, it falls apart, 
 >exposing the malt to mash water.  This is definitely not true of unmalted 
 >grains.  If you have the strength to run it through a roller mill, the best 
 >you will get is something like thick oatmeal.  As there usually is no husk 
 >involved, there is little advantage to a roller mill over a grinder.  I 
 >suspect, a Corona me be more efficient if your lauter tun can handle the fine

 >grinst.  That is, after all what they were designed for but it won't be any 
 >easier to crank.

My last batch of lambik contained 20 lb Breiss 2-row and 10 lb 
unmalted wheat which was ground with *much* difficulty.  The 
wheat was boiled for 30 min after which it was something like thick 
oatmeal.  The kernals burst open and later vanished in the mash. 
Since the whole grain would cook (and burst) as well as the ground 
grain and probably still look something like thick oatmeal, my new 
attitude is *GRIND IT? NOT ME!*  ......at least until I've tried it.

>From: ed fromohio <NEGATIVE3 at unh.edu>

>HI, I was wondering if anyone has a recipe or idea for bread from the
>spent mash....

I've tried it, but don't recomend it unless you are very careful to remove 
all those nasty little rocks that seem to slip into the grain on occasion. 
Ouch!

Did Wilt Chamberlain fake it?  Oh.....but he *likes* basketball.

DanMcC





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Date: Wed, 3 Nov 1993 11:46:41 -0500 (EST)
From: Bryan Kornreich <bkornrei at welchlink.welch.jhu.edu>
Subject: sake-brewing

Does anyone know anything about brewing sake?  I'd like to try it 'coz I 
love it and I've got a lot of rice.  Any recipies? With its high alcohol 
content(15-18%) does it require any sort of distillation?  Or are there 
yeast that can pump out that high ethanol content?
     thanks,
         bryan


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Date: Wed, 3 Nov 93 10:50:26 CST
From: pmiller at mmm.com (Philip . Miller)
Subject: Yet another Bud ad


>I heard a Budweiser ad on the radio the other day that really
>made my hair curl.  The were BRAGGING about how they added rice
>to the beer.

That's nothing!  I heard an ad that made fun of microbrewed beers
and -- heaven forbid -- beers made in people's basements.

Fortunately, I brew in my garage (I only ferment in the basement),
so I wasn't offended.  :-)

Phil

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End of HOMEBREW Digest #1264, 11/05/93