FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Rob Gardner, Digest Coordinator


Contents:
  Distillation ("Mark T. Berard, Dow Plastics, LAD, TYRIN* CPE R&D")
  Immersion Chiller (DJM1)
  Greenplug (Ulick Stafford)
  Northern Brewer Hops (George J Fix)
  hops/Ceils Grand Cru (LLAPV)
  Liberty/SNPA and Hopbacks (Mark Garetz)
  Beer in Kuwait (Daniel Kowalewski)
  SS keg cutting (Chuck Wettergreen)
  Homebrew Digest #1260 (Novembe (r.mcglew3)
  Recipe for SA Winter Lager (John Williams)
  Wort Chiller Performance (Steve Seaney)
  BATF Outlaws Steam Injection (Paul deArmond)
  Address of Siebel Institute (Nir Navot)
  Nasty Brews (ROWLEY)
  STRONG Pitching Rates in Lagers (Phil Brushaber)
  Bad off flavor in beers (geotex)
  After bottling, what then? (Barry Miller)
  use of rye (ng570)
  Information on Pete's Wicked Ale Recipe (Roy Harvey)
  HBD Morals Police (Bob_McIlvaine)
  It aint easy being green (Jack Schmidling)
  Beer on Airplanes (John Adams)
  Suggestion for Dion's inexpensive label software (William Swetnam)
  College brewers (Tom Leith MIR/ERL 362-6965)
  Spent grains = draff (Spencer.W.Thomas)
  cooling/chilling w/little w (George Tempel)
  Need your help! (Spencer.W.Thomas)
  THE BEER MACHINE (taylor)
  Help (George J Fix)
  Homebrew on IRC (Gordon Baldwin)
  Homebrew channel on irc (Gordon Baldwin)


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For "Cat's Meow" information, send mail to lutzen at novell.physics.umr.edu



----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 05 Nov 1993 12:13:45 EST
From: "Mark T. Berard, Dow Plastics, LAD, TYRIN* CPE R&D"
Subject: Distillation

Hi all,
	Been watching about a month.  Lots to learn, I can see.  I'd like
to comment on the distillation thread.  See examples below.  Mark Blunier
describes the industrial preparation of 200 proof Ethanol, and Daniel McConnell
comments on boiling point of various alcohols.  I'd like to add something to
this. AZEOTROPES. While I agree with most of what has been said in this thread,
i.e. if it isn't in there to start, you shouldn't be able to distill it out,
just knowing the boiling point of various alcohols isn't enough.  Mark's
company probably added cyclohexane to the distillation because water/ethanol
forms a well known azeotrope.  That is, you can't distill off the last 4% of
the water.  You have to add something else to break this up, distill off the
water, and then distill off the other ingredient.  In his case, cyclohexane. 
Commonly for "Absolute" Ethanol or "100%" ethanol, benzene is used.  This will
need a tax stamp, etc, but it contains trace benzene, a well know carcinogen. 
Not the greatest for drinking.  Well, you say, 96% ethanol is plenty good for
drinking.  True (?). But, water forms lots of three way azeotropes, including
one with methanol and ethanol!  So you might think you are getting rid of any
"bad" alcohol after going over the boiling point of your various nasties, but
you might not be. 

Happily you can't really hurt yourself if you mess up making beer, but you
could REALLY HURT YOURSELF (or DIE) if you mess up trying to make your own
distilled alcohol.  So while most of the fears like "you'll go blind", 
(Sounds like what I've heard about other activities ;-) are probably just as
Daniel said, scare tactics, there IS some reality in there.  I'd stick to
making great beer!  (If only I could.  I'll have to keep working on that.)

 -Mark

>Subject:       Distilling alchohol

>After the regular column we distilled it up to 200 proof by adding cyclohexane.
>I was told that the 200 proof mixed 50/50 with water tasted like a very good
>vodka, but I never tried it.  To be used in gasoline the proof had to be 199.4
>(or was it 199.6?).  

>Mark W. Blunier   mwb5489 at age2.age.uiuc.edu
- ------------------------------

>From: "Daniel F McConnell" <Daniel_F_McConnell at mailgw.surg.med.umich.edu>
>Subject: methanol/unmalted wheat/spe

>Distillation will concentrate only what you want it to by collection only
>during the temperature range that you want.  Of course this is technique and
>equipment dependant.  For alcohols, methanol comes off first (65C) followed by
>ethanol (78.5) propanol (97), water (100), butanol (117) etc.  Don't drink the
>methanol, propanol or anything that boils higher.  Don't ferment and distill
>garbage. 


Dr. Mark T. Berard                   |    Internet:  mtberard at dow.com
Snailmail:                           |    Voice:     504-353-8418
Dow Chemical, La. R&D, Bldg. 2506    |    FAX:       504-353-6608
PO Box 400, Plaquemine  LA  70765    |          SCIENCE!

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Date: Fri,  5 Nov 93 10:12:26 PST
From: DJM1%CRPTech%DCPP at cts27.comp.pge.com
Subject: Immersion Chiller

Just though I would toss my hat into the ring.  I use a "Double Immersion 
Chiller".  I have two copper coils, (1) 30' length <the main chiller in the 
kettle>, and (1) 20' length. I place the 20' in a bucket/pot that is filled 
with ice/water.  The cooling water flows from my faucet to the 20' coil (in 
the ice bucket) to the main coil in the brewing kettle and out to the sink.  
I used to use a counter flow chiller (the copper-in-a-hose type) but found
that I had to use a very high flow rate of cooling water and a very slow rate 
of wortflow to get the temp down to ~70F (50' of counterflow cooler).  I now  
use less water (but have to use 2 bags of ice) and it only takes ~15-20 min 
to get down to ~75F with minimal cooling water flow.  My counter flow chiller 
is now collecting dust.

 Somebody had to come to Jack's defense  ;-)
 Daniel Meaney


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Date: Fri, 5 Nov 93 13:16:06 EST
From: Ulick Stafford <ulick at michaelangelo.helios.nd.edu>
Subject: Greenplug

I saw this gadget that may be of interest to homebrewers like me who have many
fridges and freezers.  This device uses computer circuitry to work out how
much electricity is actually needed to keep a motor running (it cuts up
the sine wave in some way - ask an electrical power engineer).  And not
only does it save around 25-33% of electricity, the motor runs more smoothly
as well (admittedly this was the demonstration motor with no load), and there
is surge and brown out protection.  It was $31 in Builders' Square.  I saw a
similar device in a yuppy environmental catalog at home (amazing the junk mail
fall out from certain magazine subscriptions!) and the price was around $80.
__________________________________________________________________________
 'Heineken!?! ... F#$% that s at &* ...  | Ulick Stafford, Dept of Chem. Eng.
    Pabst Blue Ribbon!'               | Notre Dame IN 46556
                                      |    ulick at darwin.cc.nd.edu

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Date: Fri, 5 Nov 93 13:33:59 -0600
From: gjfix at utamat.uta.edu (George J Fix)
Subject: Northern Brewer Hops

I received some e-mail asking if Northern Brewer hops suffered any
of the deficiences of Clusters or Brewers Gold. On paper the Northern 
Brewer hop runs circles around the latter. I have not personally
brewed with it, however a few months ago Jeff Frane sent me a few
of his brews which used Northern Brewers in a highly advantageous
way. These beers were outstanding, and their hop character was a major
factor. This hop also has a very good reputation in Germany as an
early addition bittering hop.

My post in HBD#1264 had the following spelling errors:
       (1) geraniol (not -oil)
       (2) Hallertauer (not -entauer)
       (3) jibes

We installed a scientific spelling program, but I often forget to use it.

George Fix
 
 


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Date: Friday,  5 November 93 13:25:24 CST
From: LLAPV at utxdp.dp.utexas.edu
Subject: hops/Ceils Grand Cru

Howdy, all,

In HBD #1264, George Fix discusses the advantages of low alpha hops over
high alpha hops, using lots of formulas & stuff I got lost over.  But
intially he states he feels that low alpha hops impart a cleaner & more
mellow taste.  So, as a clarification, should larger amounts of low alpha
hops be substituted for high alpha hops to impart these same qualities, or
would I be defeating the purpose?  What about using three times as much
2.5% hops over 7.5% hops to make a Sierra Nevada clone, for example?

Also, Spencer W. Thomas wants to know if Celis Crand Cru is a tripel.  I
don't think so; it's really considered it's own style.  In M Jackson's
NWGTB, he lists Hoegaarden Grand Cru (Celis' previous incarnation) as a
seperate style.  I don't know if it's as strong as a tripel or not; it's
about 7%.

Oh, back to George Fix & Micheal Jackson.  What's his new book's name?

Happy brewin',

Alan, Austin

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Date: Fri, 5 Nov 93 12:06:48 PST
From: Mark Garetz <mgaretz at hoptech.com>
Subject: Liberty/SNPA and Hopbacks

Spencer.W.Thomas posted:

>I said:
> > All this discussion sounds like a good argument for a hop-back.
>
>This morning, while I was looking for something else, I found a
>relevant comment from Donald O'Connor, who wrote:
>
> > If you have any doubt about the incredibly vast difference
> > of hop aroma and flavor betwenn using the same type of hop in (I believe)
> > nearly equal amounts in two different ways, just compare Sierra Nevada
> > Pale Ale and Anchor Liberty Ale.  Both use Cascade finishing hops.
> > One is dry-hopped and the other uses a hop back.

Two things.  Firstly I'd like to make sure that the order of the comment
doesn't confuse people.  SNPA used the hop back, Liberty is dry hopped.

Notice I used "used" in the above sentence in reference to SNPA.  I have
heard (but not confirmed, yet) that when they opened their new brewery
they were having major problems with the hop back and abandoned it in favor
of dry hopping.  So both may now be dry hopped.  My brew club is touring
Sierra Nevada next weekend, so I'll get a chance to ask and confirm.  I'll
report back.  Also reported that the only beers now hop-backed at Sierra
are the Barley Wine and Celebration (Xmas Ale) because these are produced
in such relatively low volume that they can put up with whatever problems
the hop back caused for the short time involved.

Mark

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Date: Fri, 5 Nov 1993 23:36:52 +0300 (GMT+3:00)
From: dan at eng.kuniv.edu.kw (Daniel Kowalewski)
Subject: Beer in Kuwait


I write to you all as a fellow lover of home brew.  And I am in desperate
need of help.  Desperate.  The predicament that I am about to describe is
not for the beer-loving faint of heart.  I find myself in a country where
all alcohol is illegal.  I've been able to make one small batch of lager
with the most gracious help of a friend who flew in from Belfast with a
couple of bags of hops and a can of malt extract.  And I've been making
do with wine (lots 'o grape juice available) and eth (home made still and
lots 'o sugar).  But you know as well as I that it's just not the same.
I have no access to net news.  And I have just received my first issue of
this forum.  It looks good.  I would appreciate any info on:

1. Growing Hops
2. Malt processing
3. Alternative methods of brewing (ie. no hops - is it possible?)
4. Names and addresses of folks in the home-brew business (supply shops).
   Places I have most access to are Long Beach, Sacramento, Albequerque,
   and Boulder.  Discrete mail order would be great.

Any input would be greatly appreciated.  I will try to sift through some
of the back issues on the above subjects but as the network here is somewhat
precarious in terms of both functionality and real internet functions (like 
ftp), the more 'live' forum info I get the better.  

As an interesting addendum to the lifestyle in this part of the country:
       A 12oz can of Heineken costs $15 on the black market.

Thanks
         Dan Kowalewski,  dan at eng.kuniv.edu.kw
         A misplaced EE from Cal to Kuwait.


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Date: Fri,  5 Nov 93 14:11:00 -0600
From: chuck.wettergreen at aquila.com (Chuck Wettergreen)
Subject: SS keg cutting


In HBD Ed Wolfe asked about cutting SS kegs,

EW> Can anyone out there offer guidance in converting these kegs?  I
  > need answers to questions like:  How should they be cut?  Which

Having just gone through this, I can give you some pointers. There 
are a lot of ways to do this (like using a plasma torch or having 
someone else do it), but this is what worked for me.

Rent or (preferably) borrow and in-line reciprocating saw. The best 
known of these is a Sawzall. A Sears or B & D sabre saw will work, 
using 10 times as many blades and 20 times as much time(plus you 
won't be able to find bimetallic blades). Then buy some (5 maybe) 
bimetallic 32 TPI sawzall blades. I could only find 24 TPI and it 
worked fine, but I think 32 TPI would work better. The blades must 
be bimetallic for heat dissipation or the blades will rapidly wear 
out.

Insert a large screwdriver in the spring loaded valve where the tap 
goes in the keg. WATCH OUT! The keg will be under pressure from the 
decaying beer contained therein. Gas and maybe a few drops of old 
beer will shoot out when you do this so cover with a towel first and 
avert your eyes!

Also buy a 1/4" tungsten drill bit. Use a nail set or punch to mark 
your starting point. Use the drill bit to drill 2 or 3 holes next to 
each other so that you have one hole big enough to insert the 
Sawzall blade. The saws are usually variable speed so begin slowly 
until you get the hang of it. The saws will also cut in circles very 
easily so I marked my cut line first with an indelible marker so I 
would know where to cut. I got the blades at Ace Hdwr.

EW> end should be cut (on the valved end, I suppose)?  Where on the
  > keg should the cut be made (top or side)?  How many inches from

My keg has an upper rim into which cut-out handles had been formed. 
My first cuts were vertical on either side of each handle so that I 
could retain them for lifting. I cut down to the top seam on the keg 
and then cut around that everywhere except directly below the 
handles. If I had it to do again, I would not have cut on the seam, 
but rather cut out higher on the domed top so that the I retained 
more of the sidewall. You'll have to judge where to cut based on the 
construction of your keg.

EW> the bottom should I install the manifold outlet on the
  > mash/lauter tun (right AT the bottom, I suppose)? How many

Can't comment, I only made a boiler.

EW> inches from the bottom of the boiler should I install the spigot
  > (i.e., How much sediment can I expect from a 10 gallon batch)?

My keg has a domed bottom and a rolled rim similar to the top. I 
installed a 1/2" X 4" SS pipe nipple butt welded up to a 1/2" hole 
drilled into the bottom seam. This provides 1 gallon of liquid that 
I have to tip the keg to drain. This isn't a problem because there's 
only one gallon in the keg when I'm tipping it.

The pipe nipple was threaded with 1/2" pipe threads. Ace had a brass 
ball valve with chrome ball for about $6. A brass 1/2" thread 90 
deg angle extension was about $2 and a 1/2" pipe threaded hose 
nipple was also about $2. These were also found at ACE.

The bottom rim of my keg fits exactly inside the top rim of my cajun 
cooker. This means that the bottom dome (inside the lower rim) is 
suspended about 4" above the burner of the cooker. The heat coming 
out of the burner is concentrated under the rim. I can get 8 gallons 
of 50 degF water to full rolling boil in 30 minutes, BUT I cannot 
burn my wort. I've had the burner up to it's full 160,000 btu and 
had a hell-of-a boil, but the boil is so vigorous that it doesn't 
stay in contact long enough to scorch. My reduction rate is 
something like 1 1/2" gallons an hour. 

Chuck
 * RM 1.2 00946 * The sex was so good, even the neighbors lit cigarets

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Date: Sat,  6 Nov 93 11:46:00 BST
From: r.mcglew3 at genie.geis.com
Subject: Homebrew Digest #1260 (Novembe

My point on judging, or rather having your (specialty) beer judged was
simply that specialty beers (i.e. what ever the organizer's can't place in
another category) will be judged more by the judges' likes and dislikes than
any of the other categories.  If I don't like "American Light", I probably
won't judge it.  I like fruit etc. beers and each beer that we tasted we
took the time to savor and try and get into the head of the brewer and
figure out what he or she was trying to achieve.  This took a lot longer per
brew than other categories, but it was worth it.
 Bottom line was, however, with specialty beers just because it doesn't get
raves from the judges doesn't mean that it wasn't good.  If you and your
friends like it brew some more!

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Date: Sat, 6 Nov 93 07:38:22 EST
From: jwilliam at uhasun.hartford.edu (John Williams)
Subject: Recipe for SA Winter Lager



Does someone have a recipe for SA Winter lager?  I think it is just a
strong lager dry hopped with ?.  An extract recipe would be nice but I
could convert an all-grain recipe.

Mail direct if possible.  Thanks!

John W


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Date: Sat, 6 Nov 1993 10:22:46 -0600 (CST)
From: Steve Seaney <seaney at ie.engr.wisc.edu>
Subject: Wort Chiller Performance

Hello,

I have an immersion wort chiller I have been using June.  It'll bring
4 gallons of boiling water to 70 degrees in about 8 minutes.  It's a
fairly simple design that I threw together over Memorial Day Weekend.

I don't have any other chillers to compare this too.  Is this a decent
performance?

Steve


- -- 
Steve Seaney: 608/265-3954: seaney at engr.wisc.edu

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Date: Sat, 6 Nov 1993 07:56:48 -0800 (PST)
From: Paul deArmond <paulf at henson.cc.wwu.edu>
Subject: BATF Outlaws Steam Injection

This showed up in the local paper--

FEDS SIEZE HOMEBREW BOMB FACTORY

(AP Seattle)  Investigators from the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and
Firearms led a massive raid on a homemade bomb factory in Tacoma,
Washington last night.  Accompanied by local law enforcement and a camera
crew from the COPS "real-crime" (tm) television show, BATF agents stormed
a residence during the early morning hours.  The object of the raid was a
bomb factory being run by a crazed local homebrewer.

Siezed in the raid were several large stainless steel vessels that were
identified as bomb components, a coil of copper tubing and other parts of
an illegal still, copies of a child porography publication identified as
"Boy's Life", as well as several plastic bags of a leafy green substance
identified by experts as "hop", a dangerous narcotic drug.  The owner of
the house, Mr. Charlie Poopazian, was taken into custody after his house
was crushed into matchwood by a flame-throwing M472 tank disguised as an
Avon lady.  The massive show of force is expected to boost the ratings of
the COPS show, if they can only get Mr. Poopazian to stop screaming and
rolling around on the floor long enough to sign the necesary release
forms.  Mr. Poopazian was yelling over and over again, "It's only hops!",
according to an unidentifed BATF who expressed satisfaction at being able
to extract a confession from the suspect. 

The bomb was made of heavy aluminum and fitted with large black bakelite
handles.  An undentified source close to the investigation stated that the
bomb marked a new turning point in international drug terrorism, since it
appeared to operate on "cold fusion" principles.  "This is the first known
case of drug trafficers attempting to build a thermonuclear weapon", said
the source, speaking under conditions of anonymity.  According to this
source, the bomb has been taken to a secret DOE facility known as "Area
51", somewhere in Nevada.

At a press conference after the raid, a BATF spokesman indicated that the
target of the bombing was a mysterious organization known as "Z".  The
suspect had originally been the head of this crime syndicate, which is
based in the Rocky Mountains.  Mr. Poopazian was deposed after a national
"crime conference" held in Portland last summer.  "Our sources indicate
that the suspect was planning the bombing to regain control of his crime
empire.", the spokesman said.  According to confidential sources,
Poopazian was replaced by a cadre of yuppie women dressed in K-mart
business suits. 


 -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

Well, there you have it.  The COPS show will be shown sometime
around Christmas.

 -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-


At the FBI (Fairhaven Boatworks Inc.), they use a steam generator
for bending wood.  It doesn't have a pressure vessel, so it's probably an
end run around pressure cooker modifications.  The steam generator is just
a coil of 3/8" copper tube over a small propane burner.  There is a piece
of stovepipe around the coil to trap the heat.  The inlet to the coil is
fitted with a needle valve and a fitting so a garden hose can be attached.
The outlet is unrestricted and feeds the steam into a small rubber hose
(which I think is automobile gas line.)

They fire it up and then slowly open the needle valve until steam comes
out the hose.  When it's properly adjusted, you get real hot steam.  If
the valve is opened too much, it starts spitting hot water.

I think Bob Stewart (descended from the sheep-stealing Scottish
clan) built the thing.  In which case, it must be a least a hundred years
old, since Bob is around a hundred and twenty himself.  Actually, nobody
is really sure how old he is, but he was caught last week whistling at a
newspaper picture of a local woman who had just turned 100.  He was making
inappropirate comments about "look at the cute young babe."  Shar took Bob
behind the warehouse and gave him 20 lashes with the cat-o-nine-tails, but
she says that it didn't do much good, 'cause Bob seemed to enjoy it....

Sorry I haven't included a diagram of the steam generator, but the idea of
drawing a coil with ASCII graphics makes me break out in a rash.

Paul.


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Date:         Sat, 06 Nov 93 19:32:30 +0200
From: Nir Navot <LCNAVOT at WEIZMANN.WEIZMANN.AC.IL>
Subject:      Address of Siebel Institute

Can someone please send me the address and fax or telephone numbers of Siebel
Institute in Chicago?
Thanks much.
Nir Navot

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Date: Sat, 06 Nov 1993 18:02:03 -0600 (UTC -06:00)
From: ROWLEY at kuhub.cc.ukans.edu
Subject: Nasty Brews

Hey all,
	I'm taking a course now on the genetics of human behavior, and we
got around to alcoholism last Thursday. It's a four hour seminar, so we
sometimes drift around the topic of the week. One of us mentioned the in-
escapability of drinking alcohol in the field (anthropologists we are), eve
n when what the locals drink may be foul beyond words. I ventured that I'd
drink most anything "homebrewed." Tales from the field then included fermented
milk and cream from no-longer Soviet Georgia (I said I'd drink it, not that
I wouldn't gag), homemade absinthe from Switzerland, fermented kelp from
the Aran Islands. OK, absinthe isn't really nasty, but bitter. I added 
scrumpy to the list altho' I've never had any, and I've read of horseflesh
being added to beer in the American Civil War.
	Now then. What other funky, nasty things find their way into our
fermentors around the globe? Anyone ever tried fermented milk? I thought
that was something only seen in the movie "Alien Nation"  What about fish?
I've heard tell that various Eskimo people bury fish for months, then return
to eat it. I guess I'm not looking just for nasty stuff, but also odd things.
Any recipes'd be appreciated, either private e-mail or posting here.
	We were also comparing rates of alcoholism to length of contact with
alcohol. Native Americans are said not have had any alcohol ( I find this
hard to believe since natural fermentation is so common: i forgot a cobbler
on the kitchen sink over the weekend and came back to blackberry melomush
a'bubblin' away). What about Australia? anyone know of aboriginal beer
drinks there? Hawaii? Didn't Cook make beer of breadfruit on landing, which
the Hawaiians thought foul? There was a Polynesian kava drink, but to my
knowledge it wasn't intoxicating. Anyone know?

	Thanks to all who provided info on Belgian Special B. I racked my
Irish red into the secondary a few days ago. Used Guy McConnel's recipe with
a full pound of Special B. Perhaps it was a wee too much. We'll see in about
three weeks how she turned out.
Matt Rowley     Rowley at kuhub.cc.ukans.edu

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Date: Sun, 7 Nov 93 11:15:00 -0600
From: phil.brushaber at lunatic.com (Phil Brushaber)
Subject: STRONG Pitching Rates in Lagers



I am here to testify! I have become a believer. I think I now have
an appreciation of what people have been talking about when they
espouse STRONG pitching rates (especially for lagers).

Last week I made a Dopplebock using Wyeast Bavarian. I started
with the foil pack and eventually stepped it up to 1 gallon
of starter. I pitched the whole thing after cooling the wort and
got my usual, fairly strong fermentation after about 10-12 hours.
In 12 days the wort went from 1.080 to 1.030. A couple of days ago
I racked to secondary and saved the yeast slurry at the bottom of
the primary.

Yesterday, I brewed another Dopplebock (wanted to change the
recipe slightly) and used the 1.5 pints of clean, yeast slurry (no
beer, no trub). This time fermentation started in about 3-4 hours.
Again no surprise from what I have read.

Here was the difference. Normally I brew lagers at about 50^-52^
to start and get about a 1-2" head. This time not only was the
onset of fermentation quick, it was extremely vigorous. About a 4-
5" head, actually necessitating a blow off tube on a lager. To
somewhat slow down activity I reduced the fermentation temp to
about 46^. No slow down in activity, still blowing off. I suspect
that this will also be a quick total fermentation, perhaps
something like 10-14 days versus the usual 20-30 I have been
experiencing for lagers.

The opportunity came in brewing with the same yeast a couple of
weeks apart. My guess is that one could not save this slurry very
long even if refrigerated (2 weeks before autolysis?), so unless I
am brewing with the same strain regularly it could make it tough
to achieve the same effect. I feel certain that I am not getting
the same amount of yeast out of even a one gallon starter that I
am out of the slurry from a five gallon batch.

I'm a believer. I now know what "STRONG pitching rates" means. Now
I want to know how I can re-capture the effect if I am not brewing
with the same strain every couple of weeks. Thoughts?


 ... Bubble! Bubble! Bubble! My brew is in trouble!
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.11

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Date: Sun, 7 Nov 93 15:05:37 -0500
From: <geotex at engin.umich.edu>
Subject: Bad off flavor in beers


Ouch.

Not that I am worrying or anything, but I seem to have
stumbled into my first brewing roadblock.  A few weeks ago,
I posted a message about my Old Ale that was having a vigorous
second ferment about 2 weeks after it stopped fermenting in 
my glass primary.  I went ahead and bottled it after it fermented out.

I tasted it this weekend and (not surpisingly) there was a bad
flavor to it.  Furthermore, the stout (which I racked to the same
carboy after the Old Ale was done) had the same off flavor to it when 
I bottled yesterday.

The beer has a strong, medicine-like, alcohol-like, flavor to it.
Like someone added some acetone to the secondary.  

David Miller's book says this flavor can be attributed to Wild yeast
strains or chlorine reacting with the wort.  I imagine it could also
be some sort of bacteria infection, also.

Has anyone experienced this type of horror before?  I have to track 
it down before I can brew again.  

I would appreciate any suggestions or comments that might help me
out here. 

Thanks!
Alex Ramos
geotex at engin.umich.edu


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Date: Sun, 7 Nov 93 15:38:00 -0400
From: barry.miller at som.linet.org (Barry Miller)
Subject: After bottling, what then?

I am new at homebrewing and have my first batch, a Brown Ale in the bottle for
2 weeks and my second batch, a Pale Ale still in the secondary.

Though my Brown Ale has the flavor and characteristics of a brown, it has a
definite "aftertaste", possibly best described as a metallic "bitterness".  The
only metal it has come in contact with is my stainless brewpot so I don't think
that has anything to do with it.

My question is this, and input from the experienced brewers here would be
greatly appreciated by me and I am sure all new brewers.  How does one tell
(can one tell) whether a new batch is lousy or just needs more time in the
bottle?

Thanks,

Barry Miller:  barry.miller at som.linet.org

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Date: Sun, 7 Nov 93 18:43:25 PST
From: ng570 at andechs.pnl.gov
Subject: use of rye


Darren Aaberge writes:

>Does anyone know of a source of malted rye?  I
>checked my local homebrew shop (Steinbart's in Portland, Oregon), they didn't
>have malted rye but they did have flaked rye.

The only source for malted rye that I know of is The Malt Shop in Cascade, WI
(1-800-235-0026). I haven't tried it yet, but I have a shipment coming this
week and will brew a rye/wheat beer this weekend. One of my favorite beers
from when I lived in Germany was a dunkel rye beer simply called Roggen (rye in
german) and brewed in Schierling (Thurn and Taxis). I will attempt to clone it 
by brewing a dunkel weizen and start w/ about 45% rye/20% wheat instead of my 
usual 65% wheat. We'll see...
Anyone else have any experience in brewing with rye?

Prost!

Kirk Peterson
ng570 at andechs.pnl.gov

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Date: Sun, 7 Nov 1993 18:57:19 -0800
From: royh at netcom.com (Roy Harvey)
Subject: Information on Pete's Wicked Ale Recipe


Dear Homebrew Digest --

Could some provide me a recipe for Pete's Wicked Ale?

Thanks!

Roy Harvey
Mountain View, CA
royh at netcom.com

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Date: Sun, 07 Nov 93 20:51:08 EST
From: Bob_McIlvaine at keyfile.com
Subject: HBD Morals Police

Just an observation...

I've seen a lot of people complaining
about submissions to HBD which
have offensive words...

It would seem to my that, to date,
there has been far (far, far) more space
used to complain than was used by the
original comment...sweet irony.

Let's stop wining about
offensive words and talk beer!

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Date: Mon, 8 Nov 93 07:51 CST
From: arf at mcs.com (Jack Schmidling)
Subject: It aint easy being green

 
 >From: gummitch at teleport.com (Jeff Frane)
 
 >I only chime in because I don't want anyone to get the impression that
 just because Jack Schmidling is adamant he is also correct.  
 
 Yes, I know how Rush feels.  It's just one of the burdens that the great and 
 powerful must carry.  People tend to believe the truth and that is very 
 dangerous.
 
 >There are a good many reasons why someone would choose a counter-flow wort 
 chiller over an immersion chiller, that have nothing to do with scale. 
 
 Sounds like a serious challenge....
 
 >Briefly, my reasons are simple: it's faster....
 
 I have conceeded that possibility but so is instant coffee.
 
 > the wort arrives in the fermenter at the correct temperature without being 
 unduly exposed to the air
 
 This, of course, assumes that the kettle is open to the air which in a proper 
 installation it is not.  The immersion chiller should be installed in the lid 
 to provide a sterile environment while cooling.
 
 > or sitting around in a kettle while I stir the damn thing....
 
 Not sure which of the Ten Commandments drives you to "stir the damn thing".  
 I turn on my chiller and come back in an hour or several or whenever 
 conveninet to transfer the wort.  It makes no difference how long it sits 
 there with a tight fitting lid on it.
 
 >, and <important> the only "stuff" that arrives in the fermenter besides the
 wort is some cold break....
 
 Now this one troubles me greatly.  What happened to the "hot break"?  I 
 respectfully suggest that it is now what you call cold break.  Not sure just 
 what you are doing here or how you are drawing off the hot wort but 
 everything that is suspended in the solution that can fit through your 
 spigot/siphon/line and chiller, will end up in the fermenter.
 
 For the record, I never said that was bad, just observed that if the wort is 
 chilled and settled BEFORE transferring to the fermenter, it will contain 
 less "stuff" than if the wort is transfered immediately after the boil.  I 
 can't believe you wish to argue that point.
 
 >, which precipitates out magnificently and from
 then on doesn't pose any problems, because IT WILL NOT BE REABSORBED
 INTO THE WORT.  The wort does not have to be racked off the cold break.
 
 No arguement.  I have been wanting to ferment a batch on the whole mess 
 without even transferring to a fermenter but I don't want to dash anymore 
 momilies at the moment.
 
 >That presentation, by the way, was published in the last volume from the
 AHA, and includes scientific references, instructions on how to build an
 inexpensive counter-flow wort chiller, how to siphon bright wort out of the 
 kettle (hint: whirlpool)...
 
 But what about that evil demon, HSA?
 
 >But, once again JACK HAS SPOKEN.
 
 So why bother?  No need for any further discussion.
 
 > Be advised, however, that in the past Jack has spoken through his hat more 
 than once. 
 
 Who, me?
 
 > More than twice, for that matter.
 
 Now, that I challenge.
 
 >  But I can see it now: "Real brewers only brew all-grain."
 
 YUP!
 
 >"Real brewers culture their own yeast (although once upon a time liquid
 yeast was for snobs, remember, Jack?)."
 
 Not sure what those quote marks are supposed to indicate but I never said 
 anything like that.  I did not believe the stories about liquid yeast and to 
 a large extent, I still do not.  I do however, believe that yeast can be 
 eliminated as a source of infection if one cultures one's own yeast.  I sepnt 
 a lot of time on the subject and my yeast article has made the process 
 understandable to those intimidated by it.  The arguing back and forth was 
 part of the learning process but never did I ridicule anyone for not using 
 liquid yeast.
 
 > and now: "Real brewers use an immersion chiller."  Pffft.
 
 Again, you are taking liberty with the quote marks.
 
 If anything, I implied that real brewers, i.e. commercial brewers use 
 counter-flow chillers, but for reasons primarily based on scale.
 
 Homebrewers who use counter-flow chillers do it because they like them for 
 some reason or other which has little or nothing to do with the quality of 
 the beer they produce.
 
 >From: Steve Seaney <seaney at ie.engr.wisc.edu>
 >Subject:  Re: Plans for Grain Mill
 
 >Jack's mill is a nice piece of work.  My complaint about the cost
 doesn't counter the craftsmanship of the work. Jack however is making
 a profit in this mill.
 
 I don't want to beat this one to death but I would like to point out that I 
 made the first mill in the spirit of the intrepid experimenter who would not 
 take no for an answer.  There simply was nothing available on the market and 
 I wanted one.  Having sold my real business and retired, I assure y'all, I 
 had no intention of making more than one.    Turns out though, that if you 
 build a better mouse trap, people will indeed,  beat a path to your door.
 
 >I am still collecting ideas for parts of the mill.  If there are any
 interesting ideas for the rollers I'd appreciate a note.   It'd be
 nice to use parts that are available at hardware stores, etc.
 
 The only roller I found practical is one used in Xerox machines.  It requires 
 a bit of ingenuity to make it work, but if you can find them in surplus 
 stores, it will save you a lot of grief.
 
 The conveyer belt ones will work for the passive roller but there is no way 
 to put a crank on them.  You can make them from water pipes, rolling pins and 
 a host of other stuff for next to nothing and I admire people who do this.
 
 For those who don't have the time or inclination, well... now there are 
 alternatives.
 
 js
 

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Date: Mon, 8 Nov 93 06:57:17 -0700
From: John Adams <j_adams at hpfcjca.sde.hp.com>
Subject: Beer on Airplanes

Last summer I took 3 bottle of homebrew to my friends wedding in Vermont.
I was flying USAir form Denver to Boston.  At baggage checkin I informed
him that I had homebrewed beer in my carry-on and I asked if it would be
alright to take them unboard (I didn't want them to become handled my
baggage handler's).

USAir informed me that it would be alright as long as I wasn't planning on
drinking them onboard.


John Adams

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Date: Mon, 8 Nov 93 10:48:33 EST
From: William Swetnam <wswetnam at capcon.net>
Subject: Suggestion for Dion's inexpensive label software

A few HBDs back, Dion asked for suggestions for an inexpensive software 
package with Corel Draw like capabilities.  In Saturday's HBD Mike Keller
suggested draw that was included w/ Windows.  My suggestion, if you can part
with around $89 is Harvard Graphics v2.0 for Windows.  It is a 
presentation graphics package which includes a Corel Draw/Adobe Illustrator/
or Aldus Freehand *like* drawing program called F/X.  It CAN have text flow
along a drawn curve.  Draw the curve, draw the line, select them both and 
choose a menu option... Done.  The low price is an introductory offer so I 
am not sure how long it will last, so check Egghead, CompUSA or you favorite
mail order house...

Will Swetnam
(wswetnam at capcon.net)


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Date: Mon, 8 Nov 1993 09:29:09 -0600
From: trl at photos.wustl.edu (Tom Leith MIR/ERL 362-6965)
Subject: College brewers

Eugene at Swarthmore College writes:

>I've seen _many_ addresses on postings from colleges and universities, but it 
>seems most of the postings are written by people a bit older than the average 
>college student.

Gee, what makes it seem that way?  Most of the HDB posts come across as at 
least thoughtful, and mostly well-informed.  Are these not traits of "college 
students"?   Or are these traits found only in those "a bit older"?  And just 
how much older is "a bit" anyway?  Sounds to me like RMAMPANT AGE-ISM on the 
Swarthmore Campus.  I do hope the administration can do something about this 
sad situation  before those infected minds graduate and go forth to perpetuate 
myths and sterotypes, to the detriment of all the world.  8-)

	tom leith
	who is "a bit" older than
	the "average" college student

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Date: Mon, 8 Nov 93 10:37:33 EST
From: Spencer.W.Thomas at med.umich.edu
Subject: Spent grains = draff

Reading Clive LaPensee's _Historical Companion to House Brewing_ last
night, he claims that the spent grains are called "draff".  I like it.
Right up there with "wort" and "trub".

I haven't finished the book, but it seems to be an interesting
combination of good information and out-and-out misinformation.  It's
the first book aimed at the home-brewer that has an in-depth
discussion of malting your own.

I seem to recall that this book is available through the AHA; I bought
mine from a local HB supplier who had picked up some copies on a trip
to England.

=S

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Date: Mon, 08 Nov 1993 11:19:42 +0000 (U)
From: George Tempel <tempel at MONMOUTH-ETDL1.ARMY.MIL>
Subject: cooling/chilling w/little w

                      cooling/chilling w/little water?
I've been closely following the chiller wars and, although
all the designs seem fairly straight forward, I have a
question:

Is there another method  that _doesn't_ require gallons
upon gallons of water running from the tap to cool
the wort? I'd rather not keep the local water authorities
in business just to have quickly cooled wort.

Has someone come up with a chiller design that
uses a closed system? Obviously you'd need a pump
to circulate, but perhaps you could use ice as a heat
exchanger for the chiller water? Does anyone know of
a good cheap (and fairly quiet) pump for such an activity?

feel free to post or reply directly...

george tempel
908/544-2673



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Date: Mon, 8 Nov 93 10:58:29 EST
From: Spencer.W.Thomas at med.umich.edu
Subject: Need your help!

I'm trying to refine my "double sparge" method.  (Yes, I know this is
a historically used method, but there seems to be very little in the
HB literature that will help me.)  In order to be able to better plan
these batches, I need to do some experiments involving the SG
resulting from various liquor-grain ratios.  The results I get will be
valid for my specific setup, but may vary from the results from other
mashing/sparging setups.

Here's my basic assumption: Given a particular ratio of water to
grain in the mash, if it is fully mixed, and drained without the
addition of any sparge water, then the gravity of the resulting sweet
wort will be essentially constant throughout the draining
(lautering?), and will depend only on the initial water-grain ratio.
The amount you get out depends on the amount of water and grain you
put in, of course, but the gravity shouldn't.  (Initial experimental
evidence is in favor of this hypothesis.)

If I can build a table of water/grain ratio <-> O.G., then I can
easily plan my double sparge batches to get a desired gravity in both
the first runnings batch and the second, sparged batch.

So, I'd like to ask my fellow HBDers for help in this endeavor.
Here's what you'd need to do:

1. Write down the ratio of water to grain when you're ready to start
lautering.  Make sure the mash is uniformly mixed.

2. Take a (temp corrected) SG reading of the first runnings.

3. After a while, but before adding any additional sparge water, take
a second SG reading.

4. If you're willing, drain the entire tun, and record the "final" SG
reading and the volume obtained.

5. Send me e-mail with the following information:
	a. Grain bill
	b. Water/grain ratio (or amount of water added to the mash)
	c. Initial lauter SG
	d. Additional lauter SG readings (and volume of sweet wort
	   at that time).
	e. If you know, total amount of sweet wort obtained from first
	   runnings.
	f. Your lautering set-up (zapap, copper manifold, easymash, etc.)

I am planning to write this up for (probably) Brewing Techniques, if
the method works as I expect.  Any contributors will be acknowledged,
of course.

=Spencer W. Thomas 		|  Info Tech and Networking, B1911 CFOB, 0704
   "Genome Informatician"	|  Univ of Michigan, Ann Arbor, MI 48109
Spencer.W.Thomas at med.umich.edu	|  313-764-8065, FAX 313-764-4133

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Date: Mon, 8 Nov 93 11:10:30 EST
From: taylor at e5sf.hweng.syr.ge.com (taylor)
Subject: THE BEER MACHINE

Has anyone tried or heard off  "THE BEER MACHINE"??
Sold by some place in Seattle.  Sounds sort of different.
Has anyone out there tried this?  I'm wondering if this
process is any good.  THE BEER MACHINE for those who haven't
heard is a 2.5 gallon keg that is a fermenter and a dispenser
all in one.  Just add the beer mix and yeast wait 3-5 days and
put it in the refrigerator for 3-5 days and you have beer.  There is 
a small CO2 injecter on top for adding more cabonation.  The injector looks
like those CO2 canisters for pellet guns.  Any info about "THE BEER 
MACHINE" available out there??  I'm thinking of buying one to use for
and small keg system.  Brew my own beer and just use it for a dispenser

Todd.........

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Date: Mon, 8 Nov 93 10:46:09 -0600
From: gjfix at utamat.uta.edu (George J Fix)
Subject: Help

Please forgive the use of bandwidth. On Monday (11/8/93) I received
e-mail which inadvertently chewed up by our system. I conjecture it
came from Chicago since the Spooky competition was mentioned. It also
had questions about multi-strain yeast cultures. Unfortunately, the
sender could not be identified. Hopefully the later is on HBD, and
if so I would be grateful if they would send another copy of the message.

 -George Fix



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Date: Mon, 8 Nov 1993 09:04:11 -0800 (PST)
From: Gordon Baldwin <gbaldw at usin.com>
Subject: Homebrew on IRC

For those of you with access to the Internet and IRC there has been a
homebrew channel forming most days. Come in and say hi. To get there
join #homebrew.

- -- 
Gordon Baldwin
gbaldw at usin.com

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Date: Mon, 8 Nov 1993 08:15:55 -0800 (PST)
From: gbaldw at zaphod.usin.com (Gordon Baldwin)
Subject: Homebrew channel on irc

For those of you with access to the Internet and IRC there is a homebrew
channel that has been forming most days. If you have access come in and
joing #homebrew.

- -- 
Gordon Baldwin
gbaldw at usin.com

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End of HOMEBREW Digest #1267, 11/09/93