FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Rob Gardner, Digest Coordinator


Contents:
  Wit Bier recipe clarification and info on pre-packaged Black & Tan (Keith A. MacNeal HLO1-1/T09 DTN 225-6171  08-Nov-1993 1243)
  Isinglass/homegrown plugs (korz)
  Commercially available hard ciders. (Paul Anderson)
  Re: College brewers (Daniel Roman)
  Kettle Mashing ("Robert H. Reed")
  HopShake/BrewLit/RyeMalt (COYOTE)
  Brewery Liturature (robl)
  Re: Beer Labels  (Dion Hollenbeck)
  Christmas is just two cases away! ("Beauchamp, Tim")
  Re: Beer Labels  (Dion Hollenbeck)
  keg carbonation (David A. Byars)
  sm-ALL Grain/  Sake (COYOTE)
  sake-brewing (Bryan Kornreich)
  HopShake/BrewLit/RyeMalt (COYOTE)
  Counter Pressure Fillers - What am I doing wrong? (John McCaffrey)
  Yeast not starting (sniff) (John Fix)
  Re: Making plugs from homegrown hops (Tom Kaltenbach)
  Re: Hop Back effect (Martin Wilde)
  Extract Storage (Darren Evans-Young)
  Humour/All-grain questions (npyle)
  BREWING ORGANS (Jack Schmidling)
  Yeast blends (GANDE)
  Re: BATF outlaws steam injection (D S Draper)
  greenplug (Tim Anderson)
  Greenplug (Ulick Stafford)
  Brewing books                                                     (gbgg5tt5)
  Brewing books (Paul Slater)
  Hot Break/Hops in CF Chiller ("Robert H. Reed")
  Brewpubs in/near Ithaca, NY (gorman)
  BSness/Low Alpha Hops/Chilling Out/Lawsuit! (npyle)
  Re: Wort Chillers, Redux (Jeff Frane)
  Sending beer through the post                                     (gbgg5tt5)
  Sending beer through the post (Paul Slater)
  Siphon Wonder/Trub Effect ("Stephen Schember")


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----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 8 Nov 93 12:47:03 EST
From: Keith A. MacNeal HLO1-1/T09 DTN 225-6171 08-Nov-1993 1243 <macneal at pate.enet.dec.com>
Subject: Wit Bier recipe clarification and info on pre-packaged Black & Tan

It was pointed out to me that the amount of dried orange peel I posted in
my Wit Bier recipe didn't come out as I intended.  I forgot that some
specialty characters don't come out as intendended when sent out over the net.

Anyway, the amount of dried orange peel I used in my Wit was 1/2 oz.

I mentioned that I had found a pre-mixed, commericially available Black & Tan
but was sketchy on the details.  I saw it again at a local store.  It is
Saranac Black & Tan and is made by the F.X. Matt Brewery.  It is a mix of 
stout and lager.  I found it quite tasty.

Keith MacNeal
Digital Equipment Corp.
Hudson, MA

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Date: Mon, 8 Nov 93 12:32 CST
From: korz at iepubj.att.com
Subject: Isinglass/homegrown plugs

Norman writes (regarding Isinglass):
>with preparation as follows.  Drop the PH of
>6.0 ounces of sterile water to 2.5- 3.0 PH with
>your choice of tartaric, citric or phosphoric
>acid.  dissolve 1/2 teaspoon of isinglass.
>Hold in refrigerator over night.  Do not let
>this material see any temperature above 50
>degrees F.  It will decompose and become
>useless.  Norman has read other recipes and the

The Isinglass that I've found is pre-mixed and I specifically asked the
wholesaler if it needed to be refridgerated.  He said no.  Now, I'm
questioning this because of what Norman wrote.  Could the pre-mixed
isinglass be stabilized somehow or does my distributor need to change
their instructions?

***********************
Tom asks about making hop plugs at home.

How about a *clean* pipe of some kind and a matching "plunger?"  Fill
the pipe with hops, pound the plunger down till the hops compress,
remove the plug.  I haven't tried this, but it seems like it could
work.

Al.

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Date: Mon, 08 Nov 93 13:53:09 -0500
From: paul at grammatech.com (Paul Anderson)
Subject: Commercially available hard ciders.

I am conducting a survey of commercially produced hard ciders
available in the US.  Currently I know of the following:

Woodchuck, made in Vermont, two varieties: Amber and Dark.
Woodpecker, imported from the UK
Strongbow, imported from the UK
Dry Blackthorn, imported from the UK
Wyders, made somewhere in the Northwest?
Seven Sisters, made in Idaho.

Does anyone know of any others?  If so, please email me directly.
If at all possible, please include the following information: 

Name of cider:
Name and location of brewer:
Where sold:
Price (for what quantity):
Style (dry, sweet, etc):
Carbonation (still, sparkling):
Approx alcohol content (mild -- strong):

Finally, if you got a chance to taste any, let me know what
your opinion was.

BTW, I already asked the same question of cider-digest readers,
but I only got one reply.

Thanks in advance.  If there is sufficient interest, I will
post a summary.

Paul Anderson
paul at grammatech.com


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Date: Mon, 8 Nov 1993 14:19:13 -0500 (EST)
From: roman at tix.timeplex.com (Daniel Roman)
Subject: Re: College brewers

Eugene:

Since over 75% of students at the average college are under 21 I imagine
that articles on students brewing beer may not contribute favorably to
the homebrewing culture.  Maybe someone at the AHA could comment?
- -- 
Dan Roman  Internet: roman at tix.timeplex.com (prefered address) //
ccMail: roman_d at timeplex.com  GEnie: D.ROMAN1 at genie.geis.com \X/ Only AMIGA!

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Date: Mon, 08 Nov 1993 14:56:55 -0500 (EST)
From: "Robert H. Reed" <rhreed at icdc.delcoelect.com>
Subject: Kettle Mashing

Mike writes:

>  First, sparging rate was poor at lower mash temps (compared to what I
> got with the copper tubing device); in fact, I had a couple of stuck
> sparges. Second, the device didn't have the physical strength to stand up
> to mash-in, i.e., it deformed, and once, broke off while I was stirring in
> the grains. Its rather difficult to solidly clamp a screen around a pipe,
> even when the pipe is outsied-threaded. In Schmidlings's defense, though,
> the device was very simple to fabricate and yielded satisfactory results
> when it did work, though I got no higher than 30 pts extraction. All things 
> being equal, the copper tube yielded consistently better results, and, 
> though it was a PITA to fabricate, it was well worth it. 

In deference to the concept of kettle mashing, I thought I'd add my comments:

My converted SANKE 1/2 BBL. keg has a union welded to the outside.  The 1/2" SS
union has the threads exposed on the inside of the keg so that I can attach a
sparging manifold based built from 3/4" copper pipe.  I use an adapter to neck
the manifold down to 1/2" for connection to the union.  The sparging manifold
is based conceptually on the JSP Easymasher and has numerous slits cut on the
 bottom.

Using this device in my keg gives me the same extraction rate as a false bottom
system and this mash/lauter tun arrangement yields extract in the 28-32 pts/lb
range.  In short, my runoff was clear w/o the use of a screen on the manifold
and I found multi-step infusion mashes to be easy to carry-out.  I find the
manifold fab'ed from 3/4" copper to be quite durable and tolerated stirring
and being "whacked" (brewing jargon) with a wooden paddle.

Finally, IMHO an extraction rate of 30 pts/lb is quite respectable from a
home brewing perspective.

Rob Reed


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Date: Mon, 08 Nov 1993 13:52:28 -0600 (MDT)
From: COYOTE <SLK6P at cc.usu.edu>
Subject: HopShake/BrewLit/RyeMalt

Al Lingley                      sez:
axl at cherry-semi.com
>About the only advice I can give is to water daily (soaking), and "shake
those vines at least once a day (beatles)."  I fertilized about every
2 weeks with Miracle Grow.

*   in general shaking/handling can stunt plants growth.  They do
sense "touch" and it causes similar responses as a "wound" in plants
in terms of phytohormone responses (again).  I'm not saying you'll kill
your plants by shaking, just that excessive handling is best avoided.
I had problems with them darned beatles too.  Don't have a good solution,
wish I did.   
    Did the beetles all fly away after shaking?  Then what?  They 
sneak back on when you turn your back to have a hb!   Hmmmm.
    DOES ANYONE HAVE GOOD METHODS FOR DEALING WITH HOP PESTS/PATHOGENS?
*****
From: robl <ROBL at outside.com>
Subject:      Brewery Liturature

>I'm interested in reading about the breweries that were around in the 
pre- and post prohibition area in the United States.  Speciffically 
historical accounts of Brewery size, specialty, even examples of their 
logos/labels.

*   Twenty Five Years of Brewing (1891) History of American Beer.
    G. Ehret.  TP 573.U7 E3 at Utah State's Library.
    Historical discussion of early brewing -  worldwide stats.
    Neat pictures.
*   References on Beer and Ale: Ancient and Modern Literature (1973)
    I.M. Cooper  TP 570.C66x at USU again.
*Happened across them at the library.  Had the ref.s on hand.  Don't
know where you might find them, but you could- interlibrary loan maybe...?
*****
Has anyone tried this recipe?  Does anyone know`o} a source of malted rye?  I
checked my local homebrew shop (Steinbart's in Portland, Oregon), they didn't
have malted rye but they did have flaked rye.  
*   Williams has it.  1800-759-6025.
*********************************** Chus ******************************
\________________________ The COYOTE   SLK6P at cc.usu.edu ______________/

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Date: Mon, 8 Nov 93 13:25:51 PST
From: megatek!hollen at uunet.UU.NET (Dion Hollenbeck)
Subject: Re: Beer Labels 

>>>>> On 8 Nov 93 15:38:07-0500, uunet!sprint.sprint.com!JOHN.L.HALE said:
P1-Message-Id: US*TELEMAIL;OGJD-5705-8665/27

John> I saw your post in a Homebrew Digest last week concerning
John> software to make beer labels.  I'm also interested in making
John> labels on a PC with a laser printer. If you get some useful
John> replies I'd appreciate it if you could summarize and post to the
John> HBD.  I have the feeling that there isn't a lot of good
John> information on this topic.

Basically, everything people Emailed to me has been posted, but since
I get rec.crafts.brewing and a lot of readers of HBD don't, here is
the summary.

My criteria were (in order of importance):

cost (free is preferable)
DOS or MS Windows (X Windows acceptable, but not preferred)
able to fit text into a defined shape (like a banner)

Suggestions have been:

	Arts and Letters - will do it all, but list price is $699
	Harvard Graphics - will do most, but list price is $89
	MS Windows Paint Program - free with Windows, but is such
		a wimp, I used another option
	Corel Draw - will do it all, but list price $399
	xfig - will do all expect text fitting, is free, but will
		not run on my PC, thereby requiring I do the
		label design at work.


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Date: Mon, 08 Nov 93 13:31:03 PST
From: "Beauchamp, Tim" <tbeaucha at spco.com>
Subject: Christmas is just two cases away!


As the holiday roar up and the mercury is slowly dropping, I 
find myself in the mood for a nice christmas ale or wassel.  
Anyone out there with some good spice ale recipe's that they 
have had success with?  The last one I tried ended up with 
so much nutmeg and cloves that I felt like I could make a 
pretty good cider by steeping the bottle caps afterwards.

Virtually (if not logically)

Tim Beauchamp         | 
tbeaucha at netcom.com   |  Finger for PGP Public Key



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Date: Mon, 8 Nov 93 13:37:32 PST
From: megatek!hollen at uunet.UU.NET (Dion Hollenbeck)
Subject: Re: Beer Labels 

Well I found a mistake in what I said.

dion> Suggestions have been:
dion> 
dion> 	Arts and Letters - will do it all, but list price is $699
dion> 	Harvard Graphics - will do most, but list price is $89

I called and found that the price of $89 on Harvard Graphics is only
if you are upgrading.  Otherwise, it is $237.


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Date: Mon, 8 Nov 93 15:11:29 PST
From: byars at mdd.comm.mot.com (David A. Byars)
Subject: keg carbonation


>Path: mdisea!not-for-mail
>From: byars at mdd.comm.mot.com (David A. Byars)
>Newsgroups: rec.crafts.brewing
>Subject: keg carbonation
>Date: 8 Nov 1993 09:18:50 -0800
>Organization: Motorola - Wireless Data Group; Seattle, WA
>Lines: 11
>Distribution: na
>Message-ID: <2blv1q$aqv at bugsbunny.mdd.comm.mot.com>
>NNTP-Posting-Host: bugsbunny.mdd.comm.mot.com


I just received a kegging system for my birthday(Cheers to my wife!) The
system is a 7.75 gallon golden gate keg and a 10 lb. co2 bottle. I kegged
a 5 gallon batch and am force carbonating it for a party. My question is:

What are the pros and cons of force carbonation vs. priming?
I understand that force carbonation is faster, but has anyone noticed any
differences in taste? C'mon keggers, give me the wealth of your experience.

Thanks,
dB

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Date: Mon, 08 Nov 1993 15:36:34 -0600 (MDT)
From: COYOTE <SLK6P at cc.usu.edu>
Subject: sm-ALL Grain/  Sake

********
taylor at e5sf.hweng.syr.ge.com   Todd:
 wants to make all grain beer with a 3-3.5 boil pot?  Don't think so. 
 
 > I don't want to spend alot of $$ for equipment until I know what I'm doing. 
 Or should I just make a 3 gallon batch to start with?
 
 *   "If you make it, you can brew. "
I think you're dreamin' to try to make a 5 gallon batch with a 3 gallon 
boil pot.  You'd need MORE than the volume to boil: i.e. 6 gallons for a
5 gallon batch. Unless you want thin beer!  There are cheap pots out there.
Someone's going to scream at this....but...Get yourself a cheap canning pot
for $5-$20.  Aluminum (cringe...) or ceramic coated steel. Check surplus 
stores. They are out there.  Used resturaunt equipment stores can be good 2.
 
 >How much grain would I use if I can add water to the wort later? 
*Can't do that.  You want the water to go THRU the grain. i.e. get sugars.
 
 >Would I use enough grain for a 5 gallon batch up-front?  Which is ? 
 What would the brewer community re"command" I do? 
*You want on the order of 6-10# base malt (i.e. pale, munich, vienna..etc)
for 5 gallons.  Depending on how stron you want your brew.
Under your circumstances I would suggest a partial mash. Learn the process
on a smaller scale, then find yourself a bigger pot. There are advantages
to a full volume boil even for the extract brewer- read "hop extraction"

*An example:  Mash 4 # pale malt + adjunct grains (e.g. xtal) and
sparge up to your 3 gallons.  Add several pounds of dry malt extract, or
liquid male (oops...I mean malt) extract. Boil...cool...add to carboy,
bring up volume.  Oh....hop the hell out of it of course!  '^/
> >How much grain should be used per gallon of water? 
* See above.  Depends on what you want. American light, or Barley Wine.
 
>What temp is good in the lauter tun and for how long?
I realize this info is availible in books but I don't have mine 
a neighbor borrowed it?  I hope I understand the  process.........thanks 
 
 * Biggest suggestion I can make is...GET YOUR BOOK BACK!!!  You'll 
appreciate having it (if it's any good!).  Borrow his boil pot while 
you're at it :),   Maybe a couple homebrews, his wife if she's cute...nyuck.
Basics:  Mash in- 50 deg C.  15 min, raise to 60-65 deg C for 1 hour.
Mash-out at 70 deg C, sparge.  Iodine testing is worthwhile until you
have a system down that works for you.  What are you sparging with?
Mashing in?  You want to maintain a constant temperature.
*******
From: Bryan Kornreich <bkornrei at welchlink.welch.jhu.edu>
Subject: sake-brewing
> There is a sake yeast.  I believe it's Wyeast, or maybe the other liquid
yeast manufacturer. (name???)  I would think its a form of a wine yeast.
The thing you need to do is mash the rice. You can't ferment straight
rice.  There are rice extracts on the market (Williams carries one).
You could use some of the snail spit enzyme mix for your mash (commercial
amylase).  I've never done it.  Never even tried sake, just heard "ugh"'s
about the taste.  But hey-  whatever tickles your pickle.
**********************************************************************
|~|~|~|~|~|~|  John (The Coyote) Wyllie SLK6P at cc.usu.edu |~|~|~|~|~|~|
\***** As Long as he's got 8 fingers and toes he's ok by me HJS *****/

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Date: Mon, 08 Nov 1993 15:40:10 -0600 (MDT)
From: COYOTE <SLK6P at cc.usu.edu>
Subject: HopShake/BrewLit/RyeMalt

 ********
 tom at kalten.bach1.sai.com asked about making:  Hop Plugs
 
 *Question:  WHY?  
Pack 'em in CO2 purged mason jars, and store in a freezer.  Making 
plugs will damage the cones, and probably knock loose a bunch of 
lupulin crystals. One of the BIG advantages of homegrown hops is 
the freshness, and the ability to control exactly what kind of 
treatment they experience.  
 Ok: I'll concede. Smaller space, easier measurement. eh.....
 
 Idea for making them (I've done this with other herbs in the past)
Get a tube- e.g. pvc pipe, and a plunger which will fit tightly.
Maybe a dowel that will fit the ID of the tube. Stuff the length
of tube with cones, then mash them down. You could hammer it or make
a press using a car jack if you're so inclined. Pull the plug, and store.
If you selected a proper length of tubing you could use it as a measure
of the cones-  i.e. make 1 oz plugs.  Cones are not "pre-processed" as 
are pellets- i.e. not chopped up first. If you have a vacuum bag sealer
you could put rows of them in bags, and stash away into months worth for
longer term storage.  Personally, I'm not going to do it with mine.
I have a spare fridge in my basement where my kegs and hops reside.
It is a dedicated fridge, and I'm quite content with that.  Besides its
on the tenants electric bill, so do I worry?
********
 David Atkins <ATKINS at macc.wisc.edu>
 Subject: Hop Vines & extract storage
 
 >I believe that the roots store many good plant things--such as 
chlorophylls, sugars etc--for their winter slumbers.
*   Um...er...chlorophyll in roots? Not likely.  It's that stuff that makes
leaves green.  Sucks sunlight and turns it into useful energy- stored in
sugars/starches...etc.  (also makes leaves yellow/red in fall:)  Most plant
roots don't see too much sunlight.  Try growing a plant in the dark and
see what color it is.  Not green!  Chlorophyll is produced in response to
sunlight.  BUT roots do store nutrients.  Their MAIN ROLE is uptake of
nutrients from the soil and WATER.  Desiduous plants generally don't
photosynthesize in the winter months. They go dormant.
 
 >When leaves and vines wither, these elements flow to the roots and await 
 the spring. If you do any leaf or vine cutting, as for any perennial, wait 
 till they get all brown and dry before removing...or even wait till spring.
 *   WELL....there is some truth in that...but...
As a plant senesces (dies) a number of phytohormones are produced and
transported through the plant.  Fruit ripening is a response to these
phytohormones (giberillic acid, ethylene for example).  But there are
some negative shock responses which could occur due to frost damage.
may do better to clip the vine at ground level, then add some good
fertilizer (a good reason to have a healthy compost of grains!) into the
surface soil.  DON't overdo it- expecially w/ chemical fertilizers. Read the
directions! Follow them too!  Use this approach rather than wait for 
nutrients to flow down into the roots.  The vines have already devoted
the majority of their goodness in producing those fine fragrant buds
we cherish so.  By the time the plant is wilting it is time to give up
the ghost and separate the vine from the root.  The rhizome will continue
to take up and store nutrients, so it is important to not treat the plant
as being dead after the cones are harvested. Continue watering until
the fall wet-up, or the ground goes cold and hard.  You don't want the 
soil soaking when it freezes, but you also don't want the roots to
starve and dry up before they go dormant. Feed them, cover with a good
layer of mulch (peat moss, bark chips...your choice) and call it a
season.  I do not think leaving the vine intact through the winter is
going to do any good, except the risk of fungal infections, or 
overwintering of pests in detrital matter.
Keep in mind- part of the root's job is to supply water and nutrients to
the entirety of the vine. After the vine is finished there has to be an
advantage is separation- allowing root nutrients to stay down in the
rhizosphere and be stored for the next seasons growth.
Come spring, mulch in some more compost and keep covered from spring
frosts as the new shoots start up.
 
NOTE: I have studied plant growth and phytopathology.  I am not an expert,
nor claim to be.  I planted rhizomes this past spring so this is my
first winter to deal with (for my hops). I have read Beach's book, and 
agree with much of what he covers. I have gardened fairly extensively
for many years, and like to think my thumbs have a good color tone to
them.  For a first year's growth I felt I had a pretty decent harvest
at least from the cascade. My plants generally treat me quite well, and 
I like to return the favor.  Take my words as you will...just don't ask
me anything about distilling. I don't discuss the subject anymore! :(
********************************************************************** 
|~|~|~|~|~|~|  John (The Coyote) Wyllie SLK6P at cc.usu.edu |~|~|~|~|~|~|
\***** As Long as he's got 8 fingers and toes he's ok by me HJS *****/

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Date: Mon, 8 Nov 93 15:23:56 PST
From: John McCaffrey <johnmc at brooktree.com>
Subject: Counter Pressure Fillers - What am I doing wrong?

I've got the Braukunst Counter-Pressure Bottle Filler which, as far as I
can tell, is just like the other CPBF's (Foxx, etc.).  I've followed the
directions (sanitize bottles, chill bottles, purge, fill, cap) and I
still get way too much foam.  The best I can do is fill a bottle with
about 2-4 inches of headspace (after the foam dies down).  

Obviously, I'm doing something wrong...what is it?

John McCaffrey
johnmc at brooktree.com


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Date: Mon, 8 Nov 93 18:18:00 -0500
From: john.fix at hardgood.com (John Fix)
Subject: Yeast not starting (sniff)

I'm using Wyeast Munich yeast, and started the packet on Saturday AM.
By evening, the packet was fully expanded (it was packed 11/3, so it was
VERY fresh).  Anyway, I boiled up one pint of water and a cup of DME,
and pitched the yeast when the wort had cooled to about 80F... I
couldn't find my old guidelines for making a yeast starter solutions, so
I winged it.

Now, it's two days later, and the airlock is still quiet... there was
some surface activity (i.e. the beginnings of yeast activity) and the
airlock looked like it was getting ready to bubble, but basically it has
done nothing.  In the past, I've had bubbles from the airlock, and lots
of foam in the bottle.  I checked this am in my older recipes, and it
looks like I used 32 oz of water last time.... could that be the
problem (i.e. the S.G of the starter is too high for the yeast?).

Thanks!

 -= John =-

- ----
* Hardgoods East PCBoard BBS - Internet and Intelec Connections - Hardware
* Retailers Conference - Home Brewing Specific Files and Conferences & More!
* (914) 961-8749 HST & (914) 961-8590 HST/Dual Standard

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Date: Mon, 8 Nov 93 21:43 EST
From: tom at kalten.bach1.sai.com (Tom Kaltenbach)
Subject: Re: Making plugs from homegrown hops


Norm Hardy commented in HBD #1266:

> Tom Kaltenbach says:
> >   The recent Hops FAQ has got me wondering again about hop plugs.  For
> >those of you who are not familiar with them, they consist of dried whole
> >hops, compressed into a 1-inch diameter cylinder that's 3 or 4 inches long.
> >The plugs are segmented so that it is easy to break off smaller chunks.
> 
> This either misleading or Tom has seen some plugs I haven't seen.  The 
> standard plugs come in 0.5 oz. bungs, approx. 1" in diameter, approx. 0.5" 
> long.  They are stacked, usually, in two columns of 5 (I think), packaged 
> in foil for a total weight of 5 oz.  My point is that you "break" off a 
> known quantity of 0.5 oz of hops, not just some unknown "smaller chunk".

I stand corrected.  I used plugs once a few years back, and my memory could 
be a little fuzzy.  (It couldn't be the homebrew, could it?  8-)  My 
impression was that the 0.5 oz plugs were joined together (i.e. segmented 
cylinder) but that was probably just the way they were vacuum-packed in 
foil as Norm suggests.

However, Norm's observation means the manufacture of hop plugs would be even 
simpler -- has anybody tried it?  Or does anybody know how hop plugs are 
manufactured commercially?

Tom Kaltenbach
Rochester, New York, USA
tom at kalten.bach1.sai.com

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Date: Mon, 8 Nov 93 20:04:28 PST
From: Martin Wilde <Martin_Wilde at ccm.hf.intel.com>
Subject: Re: Hop Back effect


Text item: Text_3

In HBD 1264 Spencer.W.Thomas at med.umich.edu writes:

> This morning, while I was looking for something else, I found a
>relevant comment from Donald O'Connor, who wrote:

>> If you have any doubt about the incredibly vast difference
>> of hop aroma and flavor betwenn using the same type of hop in (I 
believe)
>> nearly equal amounts in two different ways, just compare Sierra 
Nevada
>> Pale Ale and Anchor Liberty Ale.  Both use Cascade finishing hops.
>> One is dry-hopped and the other uses a hop back.

This is incorrect, I just visited Sierra Nevada a month ago.  They do 
not use a hop back or dry hop the Pale Ale.  They just put Cascade hops 
in at the end of the boil.  They do however dry hop the Bigfoot.

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Date:         Mon, 08 Nov 93 22:18:34 CST
From: Darren Evans-Young <DARREN at UA1VM.UA.EDU>
Subject:      Extract Storage

>Moral: Don't leave it 13 years in a bag in a cardboard drum.
>
>Paul Slater
>gbgg5ttg at ibmmail.com

I made a beer last month from a 2 year old bag of William's Australian
DME that had solidified into a 5 lb bag of toffee.  I brought 5 gals
of water to a boil and spent the next hour trying to get that sucker
to dissolve.  It finally did.  Since I was expecting sh*t beer, I didn't
write down anything like hop additions, yeast, etc.  Well, the beer came
out great and I'd like to reproduce it, but, so much for keeping records.

Darren

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Date: Mon, 8 Nov 93 8:57:50 MST
From: npyle at n33.stortek.com
Subject: Humour/All-grain questions

I appreciate Jack's chiller comments, even if I don't appreciate his "humor".
I guess your style of fun doesn't come across over the Internet, Jack.  I know
you won't do this, but you could always use the obligatory smiley-face to
indicate you are chain-yanking.  They look like this :-).  They are many
variations...

**

Mark Bunster asks:

> Neophyte's question, if not adequately covered in the FAQ: what is the
 benefit of mashing, what's>  > generally involved, and what distinguishes a
 mash-out from a normal mash?

Mashing gives the brewer control (or not) over the types of fermentables and
non-fermentables in the wort.  By changing the mash temperature, you can get a
more or less fermentable wort.  There are different ways to mash which provide
different flavor profiles, etc.  You can buy lots of different types of malt so
your grain bill can have an infinite number of variations.  The debate rages
whether this is good:  Tastes Great!  Less Fun!  More Control!  More Time!
More Fun!  Less Control!  Costs Less!  More Equipment!  etc.

As far as what's involved, you should get a book like The Complete Handbook of
Homebrewing by Miller.  Or just read the HBD for the next 6 months.  A mash-out
is the final step of the mash, where the temperature is raised (a debatable
step in this forum).  It is just one of several steps for all-grain brewing.
Get the book.

**

Steve Tollefsrud writes:

>      can add up. How much grain is required to make 5 gallons
      of all-grain (say OG 1050) and what is the typical cost
      of the grain ($ or Brit. lbs)?

I get fairly poor yields with my all-grain beers, compared to other reports,
but it is 25 pts/pound/gallon.  Use this as your low end, and you come up with
10 pounds of grain needed.  I suspect you are shipping about 7 lbs. of extract
for the same beer right now.

>      to do all-grain brew. With a feisty two year old running
      around the house, I have even less time than before. Are
      we talking half a day or a couple of hours?

We're talking about 5 hours for me, but you need not be present to win.  At
least for the mash, you can go do other things while the enzymes are working
their magic.  The hardest part for you (and me) is keeping the 2 year old out
of it.

>      If I were to buy one book that details the equipment and
      procedures, what is the best one to order? Why?
      (publisher please)

Buy "The Complete Handbook of Homebrewing" by Miller.  I don't have my copy
with, perhaps someone else can provide the ISBN, publisher, etc.

Cheers,
Norm

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Date: Tue, 9 Nov 93 07:52 CST
From: arf at mcs.com (Jack Schmidling)
Subject: BREWING ORGANS

 
 >From: Mike Peckar  05-Nov-1993 1252 <m_peckar at cscma.ENET.dec.com>
 >Subject: SS Keg Conversion, or How I learned to Love All-Grain.
 
 Nice article.  With a few minor variations, it is pretty much my kind of 
 brewing.  It sounds complicated but the bottom line is one can jump into all 
 grain brewing with a single piece of equipment.  
 
 I can't however, resist the urge to beg authors to have the courtesy of 
 serializing long articles instead of hogging half of the Digest.  Today makes 
 the need for this even more obvious with two of them hogging almost all of 
 it.  I for one enjoy serials.  Short articles hold my attention far better 
 than long ones.
 
 
 >  Comments: You can substitute a faucet with the threaded nipple "built
             in", i.e. the faucet has an outside-threaded extension.
             The problem with these is that there is no flange for flush
             mounting against the outside of the keg. Ideal would be a
             faucet with a flush-mount flange and a built-in nipple extension
             with outside threads. I didn't bother asking for one at the
             plumbing supply shop since I had already bought the above parts.
 
 The part you are looking for is called an "air cock".  It has a flange to 
 seat against the outside of the kettle and a male thread that passes through 
 it for easy atttachment to the female on the inside.  They come in brass and 
 range from 1/8" to 1/2" pipe sizes.
 
 >Another important note. At first, I built an easymasher ala Schmidling,
 though I prefered to call it a "screen penis". I had a couple problems with
 this. First, sparging rate was poor at lower mash temps (compared to what I
 got with the copper tubing device); in fact, I had a couple of stuck
 sparges.
 
 Not sure what you mean by lower temps or why you had this problem but it does 
 not sound exactly like my design or the results experienced or reported.
 
 > Second, the device didn't have the physical strength to stand up
 to mash-in, i.e., it deformed, and once, broke off while I was stirring in
 the grains.
 
 Not sure what deformed or broke but again, I suspect it has something to do 
 with the design.  Mine is a SS screen rolled into a 3/8" diameter tube and is 
 as stiff as the 3/8" copper tubing it is clamped to.  There is no way it will 
 be deformed by stirring.  If you made the assumption that big is better, you 
 may have a problem if it was excessivley long.  Mine is only 6 inches long 
 and only 4 inches protrude from the end of the copper tubing.
 
 > Its rather difficult to solidly clamp a screen around a pipe,
 even when the pipe is outsied-threaded.
 
 Mine uses a SS hose clamp and that problem has never occurred on mine nor has 
 it been reported with hundreds I have sold.  There are, BTW, no threads on 
 the pipe where the screen is clamped to it.  Possibly, it is the fact that I 
 use copper tubing and the SS screen digs into it firmly when the clamp is 
 tightened.  This might not be the case with steel pipe.
 
 > In Schmidlings's defense, though, the device was very simple to fabricate 
 and yielded satisfactory results when it did work, though I got no higher 
 than 30 pts extraction. 
 
 I suspect lots of people would be delighted with yields like that and you are 
 in the range where technique and measurement error cloud the issue.
 
 js
 
 

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Date: 9 Nov 93 15:04:20 GMT
From: GANDE at slims.attmail.com
Subject: Yeast blends

I've been toying with the idea of blending yeast strains to get
'novel' results.  I have a passion for 1056 and pale ales, but would
like to introduce another layer of complexity.  My plan is to make a
starter with both Wyeast 1056 and 1007 (American Ale and German Ale)
 - then brew the house Pale.


Is there a yeast guru on the net that would care to offer comments on
this process? Is there any way to get repeatable results with this
technique?

TIA...Glenn
+----------------------------------+
| Internet: gande at slims.attmail.com|
| Glenn Anderson                   |
| Manager, Telecom. Facilities     |
| Sun Life of Canada               |
+----------------------------------+









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Date: Tue, 9 Nov 1993 15:39:11 +0000 (GMT)
From: D S Draper <D.S.Draper at bristol.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: BATF outlaws steam injection

Paul deArmond's contribution to HBD 1267 of the AP article, FEDS SEIZE
HOMEBREW BOMB FACTORY, was most welcome.  The article was factual in every
detail, with only one exception.  Once again, it is a sad case of
misquoting by the press.  The unfortunate but guilty subject of the raid,
Mr. Poopazian, was misquoted when he was screaming and rolling around on
the floor.  He did NOT say "It's only hops", he said "Relax...don't
worry...have a homebrew!"

I trust that when this show of CUPS is aired, this will be made clear.

Cheers, Dave in Bristol (for another 8 weeks or so)


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Date: Tue, 9 Nov 93 08:00:23 PST
From: tima at wv.MENTORG.COM (Tim Anderson)
Subject: greenplug

Date: Fri, 5 Nov 93 13:16:06 EST
From: Ulick Stafford <ulick at michaelangelo.helios.nd.edu>
Subject: Greenplug
Ulick Stafford writes:

>I saw this gadget that may be of interest to homebrewers like me who have many
>fridges and freezers.  This device uses computer circuitry to work out how
>much electricity is actually needed to keep a motor running (it cuts up
>the sine wave in some way - ask an electrical power engineer).  And not
>only does it save around 25-33% of electricity, the motor runs more smoothly
>as well (admittedly this was the demonstration motor with no load), and there
>is surge and brown out protection.  It was $31 in Builders' Square.  I saw a
>similar device in a yuppy environmental catalog at home (amazing the junk mail
>fall out from certain magazine subscriptions!) and the price was around $80.

The recent Consumer Reports has a short article on these.  The upshot is that
they help on old, inefficient refrigerators, but much less than claimed.  And
on newer, more efficient models, the savings is squat.


tim

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Date: Tue, 09 Nov 93 11:01:11 EST
From: gbgg5tt5 at ibmmail.COM
Subject: Brewing books                                                    

- ----------------------- Mail item text follows ---------------

To: I1010141--IBMMAIL  Homebrew Digest su

From: Paul Slater
Subject: Brewing books
Steven Tollefsrud asks for details of a good book. I think the following is
excellent, presenting information clearly and concisely without too much
jargon, but with enough information on home brewing to create excellent
beer.

Title:        Home Brewing, The CAMRA guide
Author:       Graham Wheeler
Publisher:    ALMA books, a subsidiary of CAMRA UK (CAMpaign for Real Ale)
ISBN:         1-85249-107-8
Pages:        180
Price:        64.99 (pounds sterling) (1991 price)

The following chapter headings will give some idea of the depth of information
contained in this book:

History of traditional and commercial brewing; brewing methods; brewing
equipment; malt/malt extract/sugar; hops; yeast; water and water treatment;
mashing and sparging; boiling and cooling; fermentation; finishing;
cleanliness and sterilisation; recipe formulation; malt extract beers;
mashed beers; lager; other brewing techniques; problems; making measurements;
glossary; index.

I would heartily recommend it.

Paul Slater
gbgg5tt5 at ibmmail.com


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Date: Tue, 09 Nov 1993 11:02:12 -0500 (EST)
From: "Robert H. Reed" <rhreed at icdc.delcoelect.com>
Subject: Hot Break/Hops in CF Chiller

Jack writes regarding use of a CF chiller:

>  Now this one troubles me greatly.  What happened to the "hot break"?  I 
>  respectfully suggest that it is now what you call cold break.  Not sure just 
>  what you are doing here or how you are drawing off the hot wort but 
>  everything that is suspended in the solution that can fit through your 
>  spigot/siphon/line and chiller, will end up in the fermenter.

I wanted to comment that my boiler has a spigot several inches above the 
bottom of the kettle.  My CF chiller attaches to the spigot via a
flare fitting.  Twelve to fifteen minutes after the boil is concluded, I
begin runoff through the heat exchanger.  By this time, hops and hot break
have settled below the level of the spigot and are not drawn into the runoff.
The price paid is the loss of a few quarts bitter wort: this can be reclaimed
and canned for use as starters if one is so inclined.

Rob Reed

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Date: Tue, 09 Nov 93 11:46:59 EST
From: gorman at aol.com
Subject: Brewpubs in/near Ithaca, NY

HBD Land,

Any info on brewpubs in or near Ithaca, NY?

Thanks in advance,

Bill Gorman

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Date: Tue, 9 Nov 93 9:54:24 MST
From: npyle at n33.stortek.com
Subject: BSness/Low Alpha Hops/Chilling Out/Lawsuit!

It appears that someone has been offended by recent HBD discussions.  So lets
all stick to business now, and don't offend anyone, and make sure we don't get
too crude and vulgar.  As far as I can tell, this is the first post by this
particular HBD "participant"; which isn't exactly pushing the forum in a
positive direction.  Now that is vulgar.

**
Alan in Austin asks for clarification:

>In HBD #1264, George Fix discusses the advantages of low alpha hops over
high alpha hops, using lots of formulas & stuff I got lost over.  But
intially he states he feels that low alpha hops impart a cleaner & more
mellow taste.  So, as a clarification, should larger amounts of low alpha
hops be substituted for high alpha hops to impart these same qualities, or
would I be defeating the purpose?  What about using three times as much
2.5% hops over 7.5% hops to make a Sierra Nevada clone, for example?

I think I can answer this one, and add some personal experience.  Yes, you
should use more of the lower alpha hops to achieve the same bitterness as less
of the high alpha hops.  As long as you add the lower alpha hops at the same
boil times as you would have added the higher alpha hops, you will in theory,
have the same amount of bitterness.  It will just be a "cleaner", more pleasant
bitterness.

>From personal experience, I brewed a Sierra Nevada Pale Ale clone with low
alpha hops.  SNPA uses Perle hops for bittering, in the 7 - 9.5% AA range.  I
used Mt. Hood for bittering, at 3.9% AA.  Now I don't know how these two hops
do in Dr. Fix's "ratio test" but I can say that my "clone" was a far superior
beer to the original.  It was very close in all respects, but the hopping I did
was quite an improvement.  This is the real joy of homebrewing.

**
George Tempel asks:

>Is there another method  that _doesn't_ require gallons
upon gallons of water running from the tap to cool
the wort? I'd rather not keep the local water authorities
in business just to have quickly cooled wort.

Lots of people use ice in one way or another, but I suspect that you will spend
more $$s on electricity (and wear and tear) to run your freezer, than you will
on the water.  I try to conserve, but you can't squeeze blood from a turnip (or
something like that).

**
BTW, Jack's "easymasher" is described in at least one back issue of Zymurgy.  I
don't know who "invented" it first, but it sure would be fun to see the look on
the judge's face in court.  "It's a piece of pipe with window screen stuck on
the end?"  "Mash?  Hot liquor?  Loitering?  Well, all that's illegal; you
should be in criminal court, not civil court!"  "You are suing for how much?"
"Well, I've seen a lot stranger things come through my courtroom, I guess."

Norm

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Date: Tue, 9 Nov 1993 08:59:18 -0800 (PST)
From: gummitch at teleport.com (Jeff Frane)
Subject: Re: Wort Chillers, Redux

Without trying to quote from Jack's posting responding to my posting...

Jack, I know the difference between hot and cold breaks -- they happen
under different circumstances.  I leave my hot break behind in the
kettle because at the end of the boil I create a whirlpool (no problem
with HSA, because I don't splash), and then draw the clear (very clear)
wort off from *around* the mountain of protein and hop debris on the
bottom of the kettle.  The cold break is create as the wort passes
through the chiller, and is deposited in the fermenter.

'Nuff said.  My main point is not that my system is inherently the best
- -- on the contrary, my point is that there are a lot of good reasons for
using a counterflow chiller and that dogmatism has no place in brewing.

Keep an open mind, folks.

- --Jeff


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Date: Tue, 09 Nov 93 11:59:51 EST
From: gbgg5tt5 at ibmmail.COM
Subject: Sending beer through the post                                    

- ----------------------- Mail item text follows ---------------

To: I1010141--IBMMAIL  Homebrew Digest su

From: Paul Slater
Subject: Sending beer through the post
   I want to send some beer overland (and sea) from UK to France.
Does anyone have any recommendations for doing this, or reasons for
not doing it? I am only going to send a couple of bottles.
Paul Slater
gbgg5tt5 at ibmmail.com


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Date: 9 Nov 1993 12:27:54 -0500
From: "Stephen Schember" <stephen_schember at terc.edu>
Subject: Siphon Wonder/Trub Effect

                      Subject:                              Time:  11:52 AM
  OFFICE MEMO         Siphon Wonder/Trub Effect             Date:  11/9/93
I'm tempted by the recurring add in Zymmurgy to purchase the "Siphon Wonder from
Down Under"(bla,bla,bla standard disclaimer).  It's a pain in the neck to get a
sterile siphon going even with a hose clip. I'd also like to use something like
this to recirculate cold water through my immersion chiller insead of wasting
tap water. Has any one had any good/bad experiences with this product? Would the
flow be stong enough to cool 5.5 gallons of wort with any expedience ? Can I run
a recirculating cooling system out of one bucket with ice water in it ? Will
Underdog survive ?
 -I remember reading somewhere in the NCJHB that trub inhibited ester production
and fermentation but because of scale these things had little effect on the
homebrewer. Will racking the beer off of irish moss settled trub signifigantly
increase the amout of esters in an ale ? What will 
increase ester, production beside high gravity, warmer fermentaions, and ester
happy yeast? Anything else?
 -Oh yeah and best of trip award to Capital City Brewing Co.'s Alt for 
DC/Baltimore trip. Any really good Alt making tips also appreciated.
 -thanks
Steve



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End of HOMEBREW Digest #1268, 11/10/93