FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Rob Gardner, Digest Coordinator


Contents:
  no subject (file transmission) (Steve Scampini)
  Golden Syrup (Peter Maxwell)
  hop utilization (Allan Rubinoff)
  Re: Whitbread or Fullers ESB, Please! (James D Rickard-1)
  cool ferment temps (Troy Howard)
  New red star yeast (lyons)
  RE: Guinness clone? (lyons)
  RE: Questions from COYOTE <SLK6P at cc.usu.edu> on filtering (Tom Clifton)
  aeration/recipe/smaller batch? (James Clark)
  Kirschenbier and stream of consciousness ("Steven W. Smith")
  hopping bracket? (Dick Dunn)
  Beer Hunting in Belgium (Teddy Winstead)
  Scrumpy!! (ROB THOMAS)
  Old British Ales (ANDY PHILLIPS)
  Turkey Leftovers & Scrumpy (paul.beard)
  ICE BEER ("Robert H. Reed")
  Turkey Leftovers & Scrumpy (Don Oswald)
  Re: Ice Beer & Witbread bashing (Jim Busch)
  TSP Disposal (David Turner)
  Open v. Closed Fermentation (David Atkins)
  Lovibond Scale ("Bill Kitch")
  Re: Durden Park Beer Club - address (ANDY PHILLIPS)
  Re: Refrigerator Conversions (Bob Clark)
  Washing Soda and Glass (arne thormodsen)
  Copper in a boil/Wheat Yeast Stains ("Glen A. Wagnecz, X6616")
  Re: Scrumpy (Jeff Benjamin)
  Phenolics/Siebel yeast  at  SN/Sam Smith's yeast (korz)
  acidic water/Red Feather Ale (Michael Wolter)
  London  supplies (Bart Thielges)
  Re: Desired format for file distribution (Jim Graham)
  Scrumpy, Colloids & Foam (rIchARd cHildErS)
  Microbrewing Equipment ("Mr. Dudley")


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----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 30 Nov 93 16:57:27 EST
From: Steve Scampini <scampini at hp-and.an.hp.com>
Subject: no subject (file transmission)

I have been sitting on the sidelines, reading HBD for a good part
of a year, building up energy to actually ... you know, BREW BEER!
The continued encouragement, support and lent equipment from my
local brewer/engineer friends made it possible to spill wort on my
sneakers this past Saturday.  Other than fumbling around with a 
clogged strainer as I poured the wort into the primary carboy,
it wasn't as difficult as I had imagined.  My steam beer 
knock off is merrily bubbling in the basement (57 degrees F).
Of course, it may be foreign beastie city in there - only time
will tell.  I think I'm hooked on this brewing thing and hope
to contribute some wildly passionate, learned treatise on some
important beer topic such as the whether to use stick or book
matches to light the cooking stove (just kidding, I love 
fanatics).  Anyway, all you almost-brewers out there,
it is not (so far) as mysterious as it sounds!

P.S. A good word for St. Patrick's of Texas for prompt and
courteous service in correcting a minor order problem.

Steve Scampini 


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Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1993 14:22:23 -0800 (PST)
From: Peter Maxwell <peterm at aoraki.dtc.hp.com>
Subject: Golden Syrup

I've been catching up on some older HBD's and notice a thread on golden
syrup.  There were a few posts indicating that it was a single substance
that could be approximated by creating invert sugar, or caramelising and so
on.  In fact, it's a rather special combination of sugars.  Here's the
information I got out of a book some time ago .....



        It's composition is:

        sucrose         27%
        reducing sugars 47.4%
        other organics   4.4%
        ash              3.2%
        water           18%

        I've seen reference to it in an American book as "golden invert
syrup", as one form of liquid sugar.  At any rate, the sugars make up 74.4%
by weight of the stuff.  If this was in the form of sucrose alone, it would
crystallize out, likewise if it were reducing sugars, glucose would
crystallize.  The proportion (1.75 reducing sugars to 1 of sucrose) produces
a stable liquid.  In the refining process, none of the syrups in process
have a high enough reducing sugar content, so special batches of "invert
syrup" are made (sucrose solution heated in acid environment -> equal
quantities of glucose + fructose).  This is added to other syrups to obtain
the right proportions.

	Peter

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Date: Tue, 30 Nov 93 17:33:26 EST
From: Allan Rubinoff <rubinoff at BBN.COM>
Subject: hop utilization

I brew from malt extract, boiling only about half the wort and then
adding it (after chilling in a water bath) to cold water in the carboy. 
I know that one of the problems with this approach is that hop
utilization is less than optimal due to the high gravity of the boil.

It occurs to me that there may be a simple solution to this problem: 
boil the hops in plain water for an hour, and then just add the extract
and boil for another 15 minutes to sterilize it.  This should maximize
hop utilization without compromising sanitation.

This seems like such a simple (and obvious) solution, that I wonder why
I've never seen it mentioned anywhere.  Does anybody know of any reason
not to do this?


Thanks in advance,

Allan Rubinoff 

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Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1993 17:50:23 -0600 (CST)
From: James D Rickard-1 <rick0018 at gold.tc.umn.edu>
Subject: Re: Whitbread or Fullers ESB, Please!

Do any of you British Ale fans have all grain recipes for Whitbread Pale Ale
or Fullers ESB taste alikes?  I love the bitter notes in Whitbread, they
say on their label propaganda that they use their own goldings hops. 
I've also heard tell that they use unmalted wheat.  Any other suggestions?



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Date: Tue, 30 Nov 93 16:48:16 PST
From: troy at scubed.scubed.com (Troy Howard)
Subject: cool ferment temps


Rick Magnan asks about an appropriate yeast for fermenting at around
60F.  Try Wyeast 2112 (California Lager).  It is quoted as fermenting well
up to 62F while keeping its lager characteristics.  I, myself, have used it
for ales (a couple of steam beers and a brown ale), and it has performed
well even at 65F.  Since it is a lager yeast it should not have any problem
at 60F.  I have a brown ale made with this yeast ('cause its what I had
on hand) which has been raging at 63F.

Troy

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Date: Tue, 30 Nov 93 20:18:43 EST
From: lyons%adc3 at swlvx2.msd.ray.com
Subject: New red star yeast

I have experimented (tried) the new red star yeast on two different 
batches and would like to compare notes with anyone else who has 
tried it.

My notes include:

   Lag time:	   slow (approx. 1 day).
   Attenuation:	   78% for all malt extract recipes (using 100% M&F light).
   After taste:	   Thought it gave the beer a somewhat phenolic flavor,
                   but this faded after 2 months in the bottle.
   Fermentation:   Very strange primary ferment ... a thick (1") head of
                   yeast (I think this is what it was?) remained on top of
		   the beer after the end of the primary ferment.  Had to
		   siphon below the yeast cake(?) when racking to the 
		   secondary.  Never observed this with any other yeast?

Does anyone else have any comments on this particular yeast?

Thanks in advance,
Chris Lyons

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Date: Tue, 30 Nov 93 20:48:49 EST
From: lyons%adc3 at swlvx2.msd.ray.com
Subject: RE: Guinness clone?

In HBD #1285 Carl gives the following recipe for a stout.

> 7 lbs. M&F light DME
> 1 lbs. flaked barley
> 1 lbs. roasted barley
> 0.75 lbs. crystal malt
> 1.66 oz Chinook hops (12.6%) at 60 min.

I've often wondered if adding flaked barley contributes anything
to an all extract recipe.  I've tried it on three occasions and am not
sure it added anything.  Is this an adjunct that needs to be mashed?

Chris Lyons

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Date: Tue, 30 Nov 93 20:26 EST
From: Tom Clifton <0002419419 at mcimail.com>
Subject: RE: Questions from COYOTE <SLK6P at cc.usu.edu> on filtering


My thoughts on filtering....  Why bother!  According to Papazian a bit of yeast
helps add to the stability of the brew.  I you have followed the basics of good
wholsome brewing (sanitation) there won't be any bacteria you need to filter
out.  Best of all, if you want good clear beer with no chill haze problems once
you have cabrbonated your brew (primed and waited 7-10 days) all you have to do 
is to put the bottles in your 'fridge for two weeks or so at 34-36 degrees and
the chill haze and "stuff" will precipitate out and you will have sparkling
clear brew.  Besides that, if you are brewing with a lager yeast this will give
reason to wait another couple of weeks before drinking all your brew!

Tom







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Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1993 22:37:06 -0500
From: jeclark at ucdavis.edu (James Clark)
Subject: aeration/recipe/smaller batch?

to don biszek, who writes
>If you are reading Papazian, then why don't you follow his strongest advice,
>and Relax!! Your beer will be the same whether or not you worry and post
>20 questions about each bubble that perks up!   
>don

don, 
i assure you that i am not stressed out about our beer, i am merely asking
questions so that i don't make the same mistake twice.  i'm sorry that all
these questions are bothering you, but i will stop asking questions when 
a) i run out of them
b) people stop responding because i am bugging them
i guess the answers to these are obvious, but remember that i really have
no clue as to the proper brewing proceedure.
BTW: i have found that a good way to relax is to drink a few sierra
celebration ales (anybody know the % alcohol in those things? they sure are
strong. i also couldn't quite place the flavors.  anyone know what they
add?)

now for the real questions:
1) is it okay (or even advisable) to shake up and thus aerate the beer in
the middle of fermentation?

2) for our next repipe we plan on just improving on the righteous real ale.
i thought a good recipe for 5 gallons would be:
  6.6 lbs John Bull amber malt extract syrup
  3/4 lb. cracked crystal malt
  2 oz.  cascade hop leaves (boiling)
  1 oz. willamette hop leaves (aroma)
  1/2 oz. willamette hop leaves (finishing)
  2 pkgs. (10 oz.) Windsor dry English ale yeast
  3/4 cup corn sugar (bottling)
does anyone know if these proportions are okay? i just kinda thought them
up, so i don't really know if it will work.

3) i want to try a batch without using the blowoff method, but i still want
to use a 5 gallon carboy.  if i make 4 gallons will the kreusen still reach
the top of the carboy or would i be safe to just put the fermentation lock
on?

thanks for all the help so far.  if everyone gets sick of me just stop
answering my questions and i'll take the hint.
- --james


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Date: 01 Dec 1993 00:35:24 -0700 (MST)
From: "Steven W. Smith" <SMITH_S at gc.maricopa.edu>
Subject: Kirschenbier and stream of consciousness

  Whenever I can find cherrys again, I plan to try adding them to my standard 
bock.  It seems reasonable (to me) to wash the whole fruit in a mild bleach 
solution, rinse, dry, smash (how?), force into a carboy (how?), then siphon 
from the primary onto them.  I'm thinking about 10 pounds of cherries to a 5
gallon batch.  Maybe freezing/thawing before smashing? Do the pits matter?  Any 
comments appreciated, I'm flying blind.

  Many thanks to the person who suggested that hops have no place in melomel.
I'm eagerly anticipating the next batch without that "something's not quite 
right" effect.

  Some beginner's advice on eliminating that pesky air bubble from a racking 
cane:  if the wort's flowing at a good rate, a flick (thwack?) (like you'd 
deliver to a dog nose encroaching on your pizza) where the bubble is will 
cause the air to "break up" and flow down the siphon hose.  As with a dog nose, 
it may take several strikes to be fully effective.

  Finally, on megabrew advertising:  I'd much rather see large-breasted, 
presumably buzzed young women cavort on the beach than Santa Claus shopping at
K-Mart.  For an extended slow-motion-bikini-volleyball scene, I might even buy
a sixpack to give to visitors I wouldn't waste homebrew on :-)

  _,_/|
  \o.O;   Steven W. Smith, Programmer/Analyst
 =(___)=  Glendale Community College, Glendale Az. USA 
    U     SMITH_S at GC.BITNET
          smith_s at gc.maricopa.edu
          "Now 25% less politically correct!"

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Date: 30 Nov 93 22:02:31 MST (Tue)
From: rcd at raven.eklektix.com (Dick Dunn)
Subject: hopping bracket?

Should bracket be hopped at all?

If so, what's a reasonable basis for the hopping rate?  I can think of two
references--the potential alcohol and the malt content--which suggest
values that differ by roughly a factor of two.  That is, if you do hop it,
are you aiming to balance against the residual character of the malt, or
the eventual alcohol, or somewhere in between?

I'd be interested to hear from either folks who have made (what they con-
sider to be) a successful bracket, or anyone who has historical information
on how bracket was really made.  Since it was a fairly old style, was it
really before hopping ale was common?

Mind you, I'm not tied to historical precedent, but I'd like to know what
folks did with it.
 ---
Dick Dunn    rcd at eklektix.com   -or-   raven!rcd    Boulder, Colorado USA
   ...Simpler is better.

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Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1993 09:02:44 -0600 (CST)
From: winstead%brauerei at cs.tulane.edu (Teddy Winstead)
Subject: Beer Hunting in Belgium

Could somebody please tell me where I can find the "Beer Hunting in Belgium"
series that was posted here recently?  Or could somebody tell me the issue
numbers of the articles so that I can ftp them? Thanks alot!

Happy Brewin' and Drinkin',

Ted

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Date: Wed, 1 Dec 93 13:10:41 MET
From: ROB THOMAS <THOMASR at EZRZ1.vmsmail.ethz.ch>
Subject: Scrumpy!!

hello all,
having just finished reading hbd 1286, I have to pick up the bait.
Richard Childers mentioned Scrumpy, and the fact that it contained
meat. Well, Scrumpy is always Cider (ie never beer, as said in hbd1286).
It also does not by definition or tradition contain any form of meat.
SOME scrumpy contains meat (often beef due to sanitation laws). This
arose historically because often rats or even mice fell into the open fermentors
quite regularly. The benefits of the extra meat were noted, and people started
throwing stuff in to simulate the effect. What the effect is, I'm not
sure. Scrumpy is live (ie contains yeast), often unclear (due to lumps
of apple), and more often than not strong. I don't think it is GENERALLY
more fizzy, or with  better head. But I will stand down on that if I
get a flame from a producer of such a product.

Oh my, and I said I'd never flame...... well, it's only a little spark.
Rob. Thomas.

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Date:  Wed, 1 Dec 1993 12:36:34 +0000
From: ANDY PHILLIPS <"/G=andy/S=phillips/OU=cell biology/OU=lars/OU=i a c r/" at AFRC.ac.uk>
Subject:  Old British Ales

On the subject of high hopping rates in the "Old British Beers"
booklet (Durden Park Brewing Club), I recently brewed a barley
wine in a similar style to those in the book.

Ingredients (UK units and malts throughout):
7lb crushed pale malt
7lb    "    lager malt
2lb    "    wheat malt
1lb flaked rice

Mashed with 3.5 gal treated water at final temperature of 65-66C for 90 min in
picnic cooler. Sparged slowly to 3 gal total wort (I sparged a further
4 gal for a second beer). Boiled 90 min with 5 oz Goldings and 2 tsp Irish 
Moss. Final yield 2.3 gal at 1.112. Pitched with 500ml starter from Edme 
dried yeast. Fermented 6 days, then racked into 2 gallon jars with airlocks.
Fermented a further 21 days, then racked again into jars. Gravity when last
taken was 1.035.

Despite the high hopping rate - I can't remember the IBU rating from BRF,
but it was well over 100 - this is not noticeable bitter. I suspect that
this is partly because the flavour is overwhelmingly malty, and the hop
taste can't get through, and partly because of the lower hop utilization
at high SGs. I don't know whether BRF is capable of an accurate calculation
in the high SG range - the formula used may not be valid.

Moral - don't be frightened to overhop, especially at high SGs. Even if the beer
tastes disgusting at first, it will mellow with age.

Cheers,
Andy Phillips

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Date: Wed, 1 Dec 1993 08:31:44 -0500
From: paul.beard at gatekeeper.mis.tridom.com
Subject: Turkey Leftovers & Scrumpy

I mentioned something this on either r.c.b or alt.beer. The scrumpy my
family knows from the southwest of England is a strong cider, guaranteed to
get you legless is one glass or less. It is not a commercial product, more
like a farmbrew and I was told  that the addition of a dead rat in a sock
(like a teabag and for a similar reasons) was used advaocates by some older
practitioners. 

In that region, scrumpy is hard cider and is not for the fainthearted.
There's enough beer down there as it is and they call it beer, nothing
else.

Has anyone else heard anything about this meaty concept? As a vegetarian, I
could never drink the stuff, but I'm not sure I'd want to.



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Date: Wed, 01 Dec 1993 09:27:16 -0500 (EST)
From: "Robert H. Reed" <rhreed at icdc.delcoelect.com>
Subject: ICE BEER

There has been some discussion regarding ice beer in the last few digests:

My information on the recently in-vogue ice beers is that that these beers 
are fermented like their non-ice beer brethren, and then aged at below
freezing temperatures.  While ice crystals are indeed formed, I think
another important effect is the flocculation of certain substances
that could make the beer less than "smooth".  I know that LaBatt's,
Molsen, and AB are making ice beers, but *not all* ice beer
brewers filter out the ice particles that form during aging. Thus, 
some ice beers are normal strength and others have higher
than "normal" alcohol content.  Now if we could convince them to
leave out the corn, rice, and heading agents...

Rob Reed

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Date: Wed, 1 Dec 93 09:49:29 EST
From: oswald at columbia.sparta.com (Don Oswald)
Subject: Turkey Leftovers & Scrumpy

I read the entry on HomeBrew Digest regarding Scrumpy, and I happen
 to have a 
lot of turkey sitting around . . . 

Does anyone have a "good" recipe for scrumpy?

I am at least curious about when the bird goes in the brew
- --during the boil or mash?

I supppose the feathers would help strain out the trub :})

Reply to me, and I will summarize to the digest

Also appricieted would be some pointers to document how far 
in antiquity the scrunpy practice goes.

Don Oswald 
Re-Creational and Recreational Brewing

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Date: Wed, 1 Dec 1993 10:21:55 -0500 (EST)
From: Jim Busch <busch at daacdev1.stx.com>
Subject: Re: Ice Beer & Witbread bashing

RE: Ice Beer

I believe the process used to mass produce ice beer is as follows:

1. Regular wort fermented (lower initial OG??, Same OG??)

2. Still beer passed through chilled line, forming ice crystals in
suspension.

3. Ice crystals filtered out, along with yeast, proteins, and anything
else that would give residual flavor to the product.

4. Deaeriated water *added* back in to the finished bright beer tank.

Obvious questions arise over the value of adding back in water that was
just iced out.  I have yet to sample one, but the brewers feedback is 
that it does taste different, and somewhat better.  Yet another 
variation on the mass market products.

*****************

RE: Whitbread & flame baiting

First of all, I could care less about any dry yeast, even though I find
the discussions interesting.  I do care about intelligent debate on the
forum, and hope that we rise above the flame mode.  As I discussed with 
Dr. O'conner via private email, I have no problem with different opinion,
provided that the opinions are presented with some technical issues/merits
/procedures, just some supporting evidence.  To just come to the opinion
that so and so is plain wrong without presenting any supporting data is
an example of poor scientific method. I cetainly hope that most of us in
the scientific community approach issues with an open mind, perform tests/
experiments, and then analyze the results.  Maybe Dr. O'Conner has done 
this, and has supporting evidence to back up his claims, it is quite 
difficult to ascertain this by his posts.

Good brewing,
Jim Busch






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Date: Wed, 1 Dec 93 10:18:05 EST
From: dturner at ganymede.sca.com (David Turner)
Subject: TSP Disposal

Greetings!

As a new homeowner, I suddenly find myself concerned for the welfare of my
septic tank and well in the presence of my brewing activities.  I have been
convinced that the chlorine I use for sanitizing is dilute enough so as not
to cause problems with my septic tank (and it can only improve the health of
my groundwater well), but I am worried about the Tri-Sodium Phosphate (TSP) 
that I occasionally use to clean grungy bottles.  The package has a great many 
warnings about eye protection, rubber gloves, etc., leading me to believe that 
it is rather toxic (or at least caustic).  I'm not sure I want to be pouring 
it down my drain, killing valuable bacteria in my septic system.  Nor do I 
want to contaminate my (or my neighbor's) well by dumping it on the ground in 
a corner of my property.  

So, what's the collected wisdom on this issue?  Is TSP environmentally hostile?
How do fellow homebrewers dispose of this stuff?

Please e-mail me directly (dturner at sca.com) if possible; I need the information
soon!  Eagerly awaiting your replies...DT

- ----
David Turner
dturner at sca.com

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Date: Wed, 01 Dec 93 09:37 CDT
From: David Atkins <ATKINS at macc.wisc.edu>
Subject: Open v. Closed Fermentation

In response to Robert Westerman's query into open v. closed ferments.  Tried to
post to your private email, but kept receiving return to senders:
 
I use a similar set-up with a 7 gal primary & 5 gal secondary.  To clear the
beer of whatever ills reside in the gunky parts of the krausen, I use a
technique tauted by Dave Miller.  Once the krausen starts to fall back into the
beer, rack the beer out from underneath the krausen and into your secondary.  I
try to wait till the last minute, allowing some of the cleaner foam the chance
to fall back into the beer...retaining some head retention goodness.  I like to
keep as much beer as possible.
 
David Atkins

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Date: Wed, 1 Dec 1993 10:46:40 -0600 (CST)
From: "Bill Kitch" <kitchwa at bongo.cc.utexas.edu>
Subject: Lovibond Scale

In HBD #1279 Allen Ford asks for formuli to determine beer color.
In HBD #1280 Gary Kuyat recalls some recipe for making lovibond color
samples from Michelob Dark.  I too am looking for this recipe will
someone please post the refernce.  TIA

WAK

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Date:  Wed, 1 Dec 1993 17:25:08 +0000
From: ANDY PHILLIPS <"/G=andy/S=phillips/OU=cell biology/OU=lars/OU=i a c r/" at AFRC.ac.uk>
Subject:  Re: Durden Park Beer Club - address

I have an address for Dr. J. Harrison of the Durden Park Beer Club,
publishers of the booklet "Old British Beers and How to Make Them".
When I bought it (1992) the cost was 3 pounds sterling plus
postage. It would be sensible to allow for inflation and
for the higher cost of overseas postage, although the book is quite small
(40? pages softback).

Dr. John Harrison
5 Dorney Reach Road
Maidenhead
Berks
SL6 0DX
England

Good luck,
Andy Phillips
Long Ashton Research Station, Bristol, UK

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Date: Wed, 1 Dec 93 09:38:52 PST
From: Bob.Clark at Eng.Sun.COM (Bob Clark)
Subject: Re: Refrigerator Conversions

 -> From: cssc!cong at scuzzy.attmail.com
 -> Subject: Refrigerator Conversions
 -> 
 -> 
 -> It might be easier to install through the door rather than on the top of the
 -> fridge. It would avoid the hassle of moving the freezer and the added
 -> cost of the dispensing tower.

A friend of mine made the brilliant suggestion of putting the taps
on the *side* of the fridge, instead of the front.

I think it is a much better way to go.  A front typically has a plastic
surface on it for holding eggs & such, while the side is two metal surfaces
with insulation in between.  Also, you don't have all that hosing moving
around every time you open the door.

	Bob C.

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Date: Wed, 1 Dec 93 10:46:09 -0800
From: arne thormodsen <arnet at kaibutsu.cup.hp.com>
Subject: Washing Soda and Glass

Date: Tue, 30 Nov 93 12:37:16 -0800
>From: Dan Needham <dann at hpsadr2.sr.hp.com>
Subject: Soda Ash Residue

>I threw some labeled bottles in a sink of hot water last night
>and sprinkled some soda ash on top.  In the morning the labels
>slipped off nicely but there was a thin opaque film that I rubbed
>off the outside of the bottles with hot water.  The film is also
>on the inside.  A bottle brush will get some out, but there are still
>patches with brush streaks.  Running them through the dishwasher rinse
>cycle didn't remove more.
>
>Is the film from the soda ash, the glue on the labels, or water chemicals?
>I've usually used chlorinated TSP in the past, and will go back to that
>if soda ash is a problem.  Also what is the chemical name for soda ash?
>
>Thanks for your help.

Soda ash is (if I remember right) Sodium Carbonate, also called washing
soda.  It is alkaline enough to very slightly etch glass.  When you are
washing off the "film" you are probably rubbing off and/or polishing
the etched glass on the surface.  Glass is not as insoluble as people
think, and you shouldn't use really alkaline cleaners on glass.  Read
the labels on some of the harsher spray cleaners sometime, they almost
all say to not use on glass.  Next time, you might use ammonia, which
isn't harmful to glass.  Of course, you need to use it outside.

- --arne

>
>Dan Needham

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Date:     Wed, 1 Dec 93 14:16:41 EST
From: "Glen A. Wagnecz, X6616" <wagnecz at PICA.ARMY.MIL>
Subject:  Copper in a boil/Wheat Yeast Stains

Folks-

	I've brewed two batches of wheat beer so far, both of which have
been using extracts and both with Wyeast 3056 Bavarian Weissen liquid 
yeast.  I've made 1 qrt. starters with the same composition as the 
main ferment before pitching and have had good quick startup's to 
fermentation.  I really like the weissen taste, and I'm wondering if 
the 3056 is the best strain for this flavor.  I've seen talk of both
Red Star Ale Yeast (dry) and a new "Wheinstephen Wheat yeast (3068?).
What's the opinion out there as to which is the best?

	The second question I've got (thanks for bearing with me!)
is whether or not it would be adviseable to use copper fittings in a
boiler.  I've obtained a SS half keg, ala budweiser (legally) and
I want to use a copper double sided male connector through a hole
in the side of the keg.  This is the kind used for joining two 
flare fittings.  One side would connect to 1/2 inch copper tubing
going to a wort chiller, and the other would be slightly inside the 
boil.  A cut down nut (also copper) would compress two gaskets 
(teflon) to provide a seal.  Would there be any problems with:
toxicity or taste degradation?  Corrosion?  Or would it be better
to spring for a SS fitting?

		Thanks In Advance-

			Glen



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Date: Wed, 1 Dec 93 12:54:51 MST
From: Jeff Benjamin <benji at hpfcbug.fc.hp.com>
Subject: Re: Scrumpy

Richard Childers writes:

> "Scrumpy" is a British brew, usually beer ( although it can be cider )
> to which has been added, in addition to the more conventional fermen-
> -table materials, some sort of meat.
> 
> The concept apparently extends back through antiquity. Naturally, the
> question of "why" arose.

According to an article I read on cider, the reason for adding meat
to the fermenting brew was to prevent a stuck fermentation over the
winter months.  The meat provided nitrogen and other nutrients to
help the yeast survive the colder temps.  Today, you can probably
get the same effect by adding some store-bought yeast nutrient (unless,
of course, you actually *like* scrumpy :-).

- --
Jeff Benjamin                               benji at hpfcla.fc.hp.com
Hewlett Packard Co.                         Fort Collins, Colorado	
"Midnight shakes the memory as a madman shakes a dead geranium."
					    - T.S. Eliot

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Date: Wed, 1 Dec 93 15:05 CST
From: korz at iepubj.att.com
Subject: Phenolics/Siebel yeast  at  SN/Sam Smith's yeast

Jason writes:
>learned that peat smoked beers (like at least one smoked porter and some
>smoked Scotch ales) can have a very harsh, phenolic character.  There

Currently, my basement smells a bit like a decent scotch ale, but not
because I'm brewing one...

	...I tracked down the aroma to the rubber wheels on my new handtruck.

******************
Mark writes:
>Other interesting tidbits:  The question was asked if Wyeast 1056
>(aka American and/or Chico) was the same strain as they used.  The
>answer was to that they had no idea, but wondered why it would 
>matter since "you can get our yeast from a bottle of our beer."  
>Their yeast came from Siebel, and is banked there, so maybe someone
>with a connection at Siebel could tell us more.

Siebel's BRY-96 is the same as Wyeast #1056 American Ale.

****************
Michael writes:
>a batch of Samual Smith's Nut Brown Ale.  Does anyone have
>a tried-and-true all-grain recipe for this delicious ale?
>Any suggestion as to what an appropriate yeast would be?

I'm afraid I can only offer speculation on this, and what I
propose is a bit risky, so take these comments with a grain
of salt.  What you want is a high-diacetyl beer.  One of the
biggest diacetyl producers is Wyeast #1084 Irish Ale.  Here's
the risky part: try aerating the beer *during* fermentation.
It's basically what they do at the Tadcaster brewery when they
make Sam Smith's beers.  I've read that the reason they do this
is because their yeast is highly-flocculent (too flocculent)
and they need to get it back into suspension.   What this
aeration has a tendancy to do is to increase diacetyl production.
Another risky proposition: when the beer is pretty much fermented-
out, chill it abruptly to drop the yeast.  Alternatively, you could
use finings, such as Isinglass, to drop the yeast so they have
less opportunity to re-ingest the diacetyl.

Granted, I'm not speaking from experience here, only passing on
information gathered from various sources, so I would be
very interested in any personal experiences with either of the
two "risky" propositions I've put forth here.

Al.

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Date: Wed, 1 Dec 93 18:20:38 est
From: Michael Wolter <WOLTER at DICKINSON.EDU>
Subject: acidic water/Red Feather Ale

In response to Mark Stickler's acidic water problem:

We recently had the gizmo installed to neutralize acidic water.  It looks and 
works much like a water softener, but is filled with some sort of limestone. 
It definitely eliminated the green stain problem.  Hard to say if it made much
difference in the taste of my beer or wine (I like to think that the flavor
improves as I learn more and refine my techniques).  Email me if you have any
questions. 

You mentioned a "Red Feather Ale" that's made in Chambersburg.  Do you know
the name of the brewery?  I live pretty close to Chambersburg, and this sounds
like it could be a fun trip! 

 -Mike Wolter 
 wolter at dickinson.edu


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Date: Wed, 1 Dec 93 18:02:28 PST
From: relay.hp.com!daver!nexgen!bart (Bart Thielges)
Subject: London  supplies

I'll be passing through London next month.  I'd like to bring home some
hard to find supplies.  Does anyone have suggestions for good
homebrew supply stores, particularily in the south Thames (Balham, Brixton,
Clapham, Battersea, etc.) area ?

Last night. I dunked my immersion chiller and monitered the temperature.  It
seemed to stall about 100F.  The reason ?  I forgot to turn the burner off.
Duh !

For those immersion chiller users out there concerned with conserving water,
consider gradually reducing the cold water flow as the wort chills.  At
212F, a high flow can really transport a lot of heat.  However, by the time the
wort is below 100F, you really don't need any more than a trickle.

My time vs. temp, flow curve looks like :

212F	+ # w-w-w-w-w-w-w-w-w-w-w-w-w-w-w-w-w-w-w-w-w-w-w-w-w-w-w-w-w-w-w-w-
4 GPM	| #
	| #
	|  #
	|  #
	|   #
	|    #
	|     #
	|      ##
	|       ##
	|	  ###
	|	     ###
	|	        ###########
70F	|		           ###################################
0.1 GPM	+-------------------------------------------------------------#####
	0	2	4	6	8	10	12	14	16 min

Where the "#" curve represents both the temp falling from 212-70F and
the water flow rate dropping from 4 to 0.1 gallons per minute.  The "w-w-w"
curve represents the "wasteful" method of leaving the water on full blast
for the whole cooling cycle.  Of course, the wort will cool a little 
faster with the full blast method, but not by much.  As you can see, the 
water savings are tremendous and is well worth the extra minute or two (at
0.1 gpm no less !) of cooling time.  But you probably already knew this.

This reasoning applies only if the outflow is not re-used.  I've seen many 
clever posts by frugal brewers saving the clear water to wash clothes, etc.
My method is to run the outflow hose outside so it waters my trees, but that
doesn't apply now that the rainy season has come to San Jose.

Cheers,
Bart
bart at nexgen.com

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Date: Wed, 1 Dec 1993 08:58:53 -0600 (CST)
From: jim at n5ial.mythical.com (Jim Graham)
Subject: Re: Desired format for file distribution

In today's HBD, paul.beard at gatekeeper.mis.tridom.com (Paul Beard) writes:

>  In reference to Mark Stevens' comments on the need to stay away from
> vendor-specific
>  file formats, I concur; I am all for PostScript file dumps. I assume most
>  of us have access to a PostScript laser printer and as long as we keep
>  things at Level I PS for awhile, it should work great. 

Bad assumption.  There are still lots of non-PostScript printers out there,
and there are, I'm sure, a lot more folks other than myself who don't have
access to a PS printer.

And before anyone suggests GS, remember that it's output isn't always all
that great (e.g., I have a 24-pin printer that I can drive at 360x360 dpi,
but GS insists on 180x180 dpi ... and when I force the issue, GS forgets
important details, such as the size of the paper, and so on)....besides,
some of us don't have it (I have it archived somewhere, but can't afford
to waste badly-needed disk space on it when I'd never use it anyways).

So, I have a suggestion that might make things a lot easier.  If you're
going to do PS documents, please include an ASCII version.  Yes, some of
the graphics may have to be left out.  Perhaps they could be converted to
GIF files?  I don't know....  I know very little about converting from
one graphics format to another.  But at least the text portion would be
available, where it wouldn't be otherwise.

I would suggest that another alternative format might be TeX.  I could help
in that area, if people are interested.  From TeX's DVI output, you can go
to just about any format you want.  Then you just distribute the TeX source,
and people can do whatever they want with it (including convert it to other
formats, if desired).

Just a thought....

Later,
   --jim

- --
#include <std_disclaimer.h>                                  73 DE N5IAL (/4)
- -------------------------< Running Linux 0.99 PL10 >--------------------------
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AMATEUR RADIO:  (packet station temporarily offline)       AMTOR SELCAL: NIAL
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Date: Wed, 1 Dec 1993 20:45:42 -0800
From: pascal at netcom.com (rIchARd cHildErS)
Subject: Scrumpy, Colloids & Foam


Got a little flack from one or two people ( whom apparently missed the
_very_ explicit request@ the end for mail to be sent to me here at
pascal at netcom.com ) suggesting I didn't know what I was talking about.

Let's step through the sequence of thought here ... take small steps.

'collegen' is a term which refers to "fibrous protein which occurs in
vertebrates", according to Webster's 9th New Collegiate Dictionary.

'colloids' are defined as "gelatinous or mucinous substance found in
tissues in disease or normally". Perhaps I selected the wrong word here,
as what I was referring to were the threads of protein of which muscle
and meat are composed ... which I understood to be colloids.

I'm not sure what agents exist within a wort or cider or other solution
( yes, I include _beer_ in the 'scrumpy' category, as well as _cider_ )
of fermenting fermentables, but it is undeniable that they exist, since
meat placed in cider and other fermenting solutions undergoes change and
dissolution.

Such an action must inevitably result in the tissue being teased into
either shorter threads of protein ( muscle is made up of longer threads )
 ... or component molecules.

Such threads as may exist might prove a tangible explanation for better
head ( which is so far strictly hearsay, and I haven't the slightest wish
to test this hypothesis on a perfectly good batch of cider ) on one's
brew. This is strictly a theory, propogated for the interest of those of
you with a scientific bent. ( Jack, maybe a few others. [ flamebait :-] )

Surely people have been putting meat into their fermenting solutions for
_some_ reason over these many centuries. "Why" remains to be answered ...


- -- richard


        Truth : the most deadly weapon known to civilization. Possession
        forbidden by employers, governments, and authorities, across the
        known universe. Violation of this regulation punishable by death.

   richard childers                                         pascal at netcom.com  

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Date: 01 Dec 1993 15:51:29 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Mr. Dudley" <S29711%22681 at utrcgw.utc.com>
Subject: Microbrewing Equipment

In the interest of minimizing expenditure, I am interested in purchasing some
used (versus new) microbrewing equipment.  I envision purchasing such equipment
from a micro that's upgraded.

Does anyone know if there exists a "clearing house" or other type of
consignment operation dealing in such equipment?  Alternatively I'd be
interested in finding out if there anyone in the NY, CT, MA area who may be 
in a position to sell equipment like this.

Please respond to me directly at the following address:
S29711%22681 at utrcgw.utc.com

Thanks
Jeff Dudley


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End of HOMEBREW Digest #1287, 12/02/93