FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Rob Gardner, Digest Coordinator


Contents:
  Oatmeal Stout & Wyeast 1084 (Mike Lemons)
  immersion chiller plans... (Mark Stewart)
  3 Gal Soda Kegs (Karen Jdsgeoac Hyrum GEOACOUSTIC)
  starter gravities revisited (cush)
  wort dilution vs. SG (cush)
  Ice Beer (GNT_TOX_)
  Liquid Yeast Re-Use ("David H. Thomas")
  Help with Noche Buena (George J Fix)
  CorsenBONK / Kegging Mead/ BarleyWines / Filtering (COYOTE)
  DOING THE MASH (LLDSC)
  Frankenmuth German Dark (Brady Gaughan)
  Hi there!  Request for help. (Larry Richardson)
  Re: Questions from COYOTE <SLK6P at cc.usu.edu> on filtering ("Paul Jasper")
  name change ("Bitheaded geek"                           )
  new brewers (Carl Howes)
  Re: Sake Supplies (The Rider) (Michael Fetzer)
  hop utilization and BU's (Robert Milstead)
  Corsendonk Monks Ale ? (Richard Kasperowski)
  address (mbarre)
  Homebrew Digest #1288 (December 03, 1993) (Roy Rudebusch)
  hopping out/ionic concentration (Jeremy Ballard Bergsman)


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----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 03 Dec 93 00:47:11 PST
From: mikel at netlink.nix.com (Mike Lemons)
Subject: Oatmeal Stout & Wyeast 1084

I just made an Oatmeal Stout using Irish Ale yeast.  Others have
remarked that this yeast ferments rather vigorously.  In the words of
Miss Lilly von' Stupf, "It's twue!  It's twue!"

Ingredients:
        6 lb bag of William's Oatmeal Stout extract
        2 lb (approx) Laaglander Light Amber Dried Malt Extract
        10 oz of chocolate malt
Yeast: "Wyeast Irish Ale 1084"
Total boiling time: 60
Hops added: "Bullion" State:"Pellets 9.0%" Amount: 1.00 oz  Boiled for: 60
Hops added: "Hallertau" State:"Old Pellets 3.0%" Amount: 0.50 oz Boiled for: 5
Initial gravity: 1.057

When I poured the cooled wort into the plastic primary, so much foam
built up that I had to skim it off before I could close the lid. I used
a yeast culture and aerated my wort by vigorous shaking.  (IMHO, this is
more effective than a pump and airstone)  I used a blow-off hose for
the first time.  (I don't believe in it.  Hey, I paid for those hops.  I
want all the bitterness out of them I can get!)  Using a blow-off hose
was a problem because of the 1" hole.  A 1" i.d. plastic hose was too
thick to fit and a 1" o.d. hose was too loose.  So I smeared some
silicon sealant on the hose the night before.  Does anyone know a better
way?  I put the other end in a 1 gal jug.  5 hours later, it was bubbling.
At 20 hours, it was pushing globs of foam through the hose at the speed
of 4 feet per minute!  When I switched to an airlock, it had accumulated
half a gallon of wort.  (I think the toughness of the foam was due to
the oatmeal)

I just wanted to warn people to use a blow-off hose when using
high-gravity wort, Wyeast 1084 or oatmeal.  My uncle had an airlock clog
with a Belgian ale.  He came home from work to find his plastic primary
swelled up like a basketball!  When he cracked the lid, it sounded like a
gunshot and hurt his ears.  I heard about someone who had a glass carboy
explode in his closet.  It coated his clothes with beer and glass.
- --                    
INTERNET:  mikel at netlink.nix.com (Mike Lemons)
UUCP:   ...!ryptyde!netlink!mikel
Network Information eXchange * Public Access in San Diego, CA (619) 453-1115

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Date: Thu, 2 Dec 1993 16:54:01 -0800 (PST)
From: Mark Stewart <mstewart at scs.unr.edu>
Subject: immersion chiller plans...

Lots of recent discussion on building immersion chillers has prompted me
to submit this post.  Here's my 'tried-n-true' recipe (for what it's worth):
1) buy 50' coil copper tubing, 3/8" outside diameter, (approx. cost for me
at this posting is $13.99...your price(s) may vary).
2) buy 20' length of food grade vinyl tubing,(mine comes in that length, you
could get by with 16' for this recipe; I save the extra 4' for whatever
comes up in life). (approx. cost for me = $5.99)
3) buy 4 hose clamps (diameter should be small/relative to vinyl tubing
diameter). ($2.00 for 4).
4) buy 2 female hose adapters/repair ends (make sure you get the swivel
kind so you don't have to turn the whole damn chiller to connect to the
water source!). ($1.26 ea.). Also, make sure to toss the clamp portion;
you're only going to need the female part cuz you'll be pushing the vinyl
tubing (warmed) onto it.

Total cost with tax is no more than $25.00 (depending on volatility in the
copper market!). BTW, this $25 gives you TWO chillers: one to keep & one
to sell to that buddy of yours that doesn't get the HBD.

Process...
1) find halfway point of copper coil (25 ft.). Score. Cut with hacksaw.
Now you've got two halves of 25' each. Do this enough times and believe me
you won't need to measure, you'll know that midpoint!
2) here's the special secret: take a Revereware 8 qt. stockpot (the
tried-n-true perfect diameter!) and begin winding 25' of coil around its
outside. The main reason for this pot is that it gives a perfect diameter
for placement into either the kettle OR 5 gal. bucket, depending on your
whim. Do the same for the other 25' of copper. When done, you should have
two coils of nicely (tightly will come after you do a few) wound copper
that resemble oversized SLINKY'S.
3) the art comes in straightening the downtube and out-tubes. Put a coil
back around the pot and gently straighten first the downtube (this is
because you will then determine the out-tube's length after straightening
the downtube) and then the out-tube. Uh-oh, just realized that I'm calling
one the out and the other the down. This is likely to spark some
controversy so I won't say which of these should be for water-in and which
will be for water-out (i.e., some might prefer the top tube as water in
and some might prefer the bottom tube as water out or vice-versa...I'm
just interested in finishing this post!). Anyway, do this for each coil,
hack off the extra copper from the longer of the two vertical tubes on
each, then use a file to smooth the rough area around the openings. The
nice thing about doing things at home is that you can decide yourself how
long you want these vertical tubes to be: I've had some people say, "Mark,
I'm a big guy and I like big things..make my tubes extra big"...I guess
they mean long so I make the tubes long.  Others are a bit more retentive
and say, "Heh-heh (<Beevus/Butthead noise) I need maximum cooling...make
it so my tubes spend all their time in the wort"...their tubes are shortened!
Whatever you do, I find that an ideal length is one that allows for the
juncture where the vinyl meets the copper (haven't quite gotten there yet)
to remain ABOVE the hot wort. This is ideal in that hot wort *COULD* do
*SOMETHING* to the vinyl tubing...(note careful choice of
terminology...almost neutral in nature, to avoid any threads).
4) is this step 4 yet? Cut vinyl in 5 lengths of 4 ft. each. Keep 5th length.
5) submerge end of one length into HOT water to soften.
6) using elbow grease, work soft end up and onto female hose repair end.
(Did I mention that there are often a variety of diameters available and
that the best one to get is about 1/2" to 5/8". I forgot exactly which
diameter I get but suffice it to say that if you get one that's too big,
you'll know soon enough in step #6). Do this for the other chiller's tube
also.
7) once you've gotten this up onto the female repair end as far as your
heart desires, all that's left to do is clamp the other ends to their
respective copper posts...

Well, there you have it...a chiller of your very own, to do with
what you want (i.e., *SWIRL* with, *PUMP* up and down, or *DANCE*
around with aon your head at the local Burger King..I've no doubt left
something out so direct e-mail if necessary with questions/comments. Now
that my secrets are out I'll have to look for another way to fund my
education!

p.s., guess I should throw in a disclaimer about SLINKY'S and those two
idiots from MTV so here it is:
I endorse neither.
M.

****************************************************************************
*  Mark Stewart		       "If it isn't published, it didn't happen."  *
*  Dept. of Psychology            "Don't anthropomorphize computers...     *
*  mstewart at unssun.unr.edu               ...they don't like it."           *
****************************************************************************
 



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Date: Fri, 3 Dec 93 10:11:06 EST
From: jdsgeoac at osg.saic.com (Karen Jdsgeoac Hyrum GEOACOUSTIC)
Subject: 3 Gal Soda Kegs

I am looking for an inexpensive source for a couple of 3 gallon soda
kegs (used).  My local store wants $60 which seems a bit high. Thanks.

Hyrum Laney
jdsgeoac at typhoon.saic.com

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Date: Fri, 3 Dec 1993 09:56:07 -0600 (CST)
From: cush at msc.edu
Subject: starter gravities revisited

Ok, I know this has been talked about in the past, but I am going to
re-open this thread and risk flames and/or a flurry of posts.

Conventional 'wisdom' has it that starter gravities should be about 1.020
in order to maximize cell reproduction and hence cell count.  This is of
interest to the producers of dry yeast in order to maximize their bulk
sales and minimize their costs of production.  However, it seems to me
that there is another issue being neglected here: health of the cells thus
produced.

A close reading of Miller indicates that cells will metabolize sugar in
order to build up enough glycogen in their mitochondrea (sp?) to reproduce.
Miller indicates that in a low gravity wort, the 'first order of business' of
the cells is to reproduce...but this leaves the cells with a depleted
glycogen content (read: 'they are tired').  I asked the question about a 
year ago whether a higher starter gravity would produce a more vigorous 
starter, because after reproduction the yeast would be allowed to process 
the remaining sugar in the starter in order to increase their glcogen 
supply (read as 'available energy when pitched into a larger volume of 
wort').  Yes, the cell count would be smaller, but would this be offset by
the healthier yeast?

I got no replys or takers.

This issue was first brought to my attention by the brewmaster of Sherlock's
home, who says he ALWAYS uses a starter of similar gravity to the wort it
is intended to ferment.

Well, I have been trying starters of gravity about 1.040, and volume about 
0.75 liters.  So far I have had very good results, with vigorous ferments,
and lag times on the order of 6-10 hours, whereas I had lag times on the
order of 12-15 hours using starters of SG=1.020.

Yes, this is a challange to the 'net_wisdom': I humbly invite discussion, 
comments from anyone else using higher SG starters, and ask others to try 
higher SG starters, and post their findings...
- -- 
	> Cushing Hamlen			|	cush at msc.edu
	> Minnesota Supercomputer Center, Inc.	|	612/337-3505

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Date: Fri, 3 Dec 1993 10:01:16 -0600 (CST)
From: cush at msc.edu
Subject: wort dilution vs. SG

Has anyone ever done a study of wort SG as a function of dilution?
Papazian gives some guidelines for dilution, but I am looking for
a curve, or better yet an analytical function fit to experimental data.
- -- 
	> Cushing Hamlen			|	cush at msc.edu
	> Minnesota Supercomputer Center, Inc.	|	612/337-3505

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Date:     Fri, 3 Dec 93 11:06 EST
From: <GNT_TOX_%ALLOY.BITNET at PUCC.PRINCETON.EDU>
Subject:  Ice Beer

I had the chance to taste Molson Ice a couple of days ago.  Let me
tell you, the beer has no aftertaste whatsoever, but IT HAS NO TASTE
EITHER.  This baby is made just for the American market where people
liek their beers with as little taste as possible.  I thought it was
awful.  Tasted like something severely watered down, and it was so
light in color.  Probably lighter than any light beer I've ever seen.
My initial reaction is unfavorable, obviously.  I won't be buying this
stuff any time soon.  It's 5.6% alcohol, o% taste.

Anyone else had the chance to try any ice beer?

Andy Pastuszak


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Date: Fri, 3 Dec 1993 12:25:56 -0500 (EST)
From: "David H. Thomas" <dhthomas at lis.pitt.edu>
Subject: Liquid Yeast Re-Use

To all interested individuals, here is the information I received 
concerning re-use of liquid yeast.  In addition, Bob Surratt (address 
below) advises that there is a Yeast FAQ (which he was unable to forward 
to me).  If anyone out there could try and forward said FAQ, or tell me 
where to track it down, let me know.

Date: Mon, 22 Nov 93 11:29:01 PST
From: Bob W Surratt <Bob_W_Surratt at ccm.hf.intel.com>

     Dave,
     
     I've reused Wyeast yeast's many times before with no problem.  My 
     method is to sanitize a jar,  mayo, mason, etc. and pour in the 
     slurry that is left in the "secondary".  You won't want the primary 
     trub as it has all the leftovers from fermentation.
     
     I've kept the yeast for up to 2 months before reuse and it's always 
     worked great.  I've also reused it up to 5 times from the initial 
     first time.  Just take it out of the fridge when you start your 
     recipe so that it can warm up to room temp before pitching.  
     
     Hope this helps.
     
     
     Bob Surratt  Orangevale, CA

Date: Tue, 23 Nov 93 09:05:26 EST
From: michael.niemann at mail.trincoll.edu (Michael Niemann)

Here is what I do with Wyeast.  I pay $4.00 per pack and split that into
four portions thereby making it $1.00 per batch. 

1. Prepare the Wyeast according to package (burst the nutrient bubble and
let it puff up.

2. boil 1 quart of water for 15 min and cool in sanitized bottle (the
refrige is best)

3. prepare 1 pint of starter and boil for 15 minutes, add a pellet of hops
or so.

4.  poor 1 pint of the cold water into a 1.5 liter wine bottle (sanitized
of course), add the starter, add the rest of the cold water.  This should
now be at pitching temperature, so add the Wyeast.

5.  ferment for several days until visible fermentation ends.

6. sanitize four bottles and caps.  Distribute the starter into these
bottles, cap and store in the refrigerator.  They should keep for about a
half a year.

7.  A couple days before you want to brew, make a starter from one of the
bottles and ou are ready to go.

It is important to keep everything sanitized.

I have done this for over half a year so far and have had great success. 
BTW this was posted on r.c.b. earlier this year.

Michael





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Date: Fri, 3 Dec 93 12:20:23 -0600
From: gjfix at utamat.uta.edu (George J Fix)
Subject: Help with Noche Buena

We will have our flavor panel meet this weekend. I have done some analysis
on samples that have been sent to us, and a preliminary tasting. The alcohol
content is ~4.0 (by wt) which is way down from the 5.75% (by wt.) of the
version that was in circulation in past years. The color is also down (from
12-13 Lov. to 8 Lov.), and the IBUs are down as well ( from high 20s to ~16!).
Our initial impression is that it is a respectable version of a "Vienese
mild". It could not hold a candle to the top 4 or 5 Viennas we evaluated
on the GABF panel. What I have got to do now is to think of a civilized
and polite way of communicating this in our review for SW Brewing News.
Any ideas? Given the folks on the flavor panel, I fear this beer is in for 
a rough time this weekend. It is, however, a quite drinkable beer. Some
have picked up some diacetyl tones in the beer's sweet finish. This
may be due to the caramel malts used. In any case, time will tell, for if
it is diacetyl it is going to get raunchy.

There is a rumor that there is an undiluted version out there. Such a 
version, if it does exit, would surely be available in Mexico. Does 
anyone know anything about this? It is our impression that Guinness
Imports only has the diluted version. 

George Fix



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Date: Fri, 03 Dec 1993 11:56:06 -0600 (MDT)
From: COYOTE <SLK6P at cc.usu.edu>
Subject: CorsenBONK / Kegging Mead/ BarleyWines / Filtering

>From: John Pedlow <in%"TKSJOHN at UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU">
?Subject:      Corsendonk Monks Ale ?

>The local supermarket stocks a few imported brews.  Normally these
go for from $1 to $2 per approx 12 oz bottle.  Corsendonk Monks Ale
is currently being offered in "a hand painted gift bottle imported
from Belgium".  The cost is $44.88 for a 100 oz bottle with a
"save 4.00" appended.

>Anyone enjoyed Corsendonk Monks Ale and can share why it is so
expensive?  Can "they" make money stocking a brew this expensive?
What is its shelf life?  And, of course, what does it taste like?
Thank you.

>John Pedlow in Buffalo, NY

 -
*   A brew friend - toot - brought one back from somewhere in the real 
world, and said it had been described as being

            "like swallowing a bowling ball"

He was kind enough to share it with me, and it was...well....
like swallowing a think rich syrupy bitey ....bowling ball!

It is hard to refire those tastebud memories, but it was very potent,
malty, and some of those peculiar "sweet ?" notes that you can't
put a finger on.  It was obiously a quality beverage.  It was also
a very small bottle.  I've paid $5 for a single lambic bottle,
but I'd rather try to brew a couple (several!) batches than buy a $50 beer!

Do you have a wife or girlfriend who loves you dearly? The holidays are 
upon us?  Creative hint dropping?  Think about it....  :)
***
>From: in%"sims at pdesds1.scra.org" (Jim Sims)
Subject: mead questions

>I've got a coupla mead and fruit mead batches under my belt. I've
 been kegging my homebrew for about 6 months now, and am wondering
 about kegging future batches of mead. Is there any reason that I
 *shouldnt* keg my mead insterad of bottling? What about using
 stainless vessels for primary or secondary fermentation also, since
 they take up a fermenter for a coupla months?

*   I keg my beer, but bottle my meads.  They are easier to store for
x months/years that way, for me at least.
Plus I like to get quicker turnover of my kegs.

BUT:  I have kegged 1/2 a wine once for a party. Sparkling Loganberry Wine.
It worked fine.  I don't know if the acid levels can become a problem
for metals. I know aluminum is bad news, but stainless steel should be
ok.  There is the possibility of leaching metallic tastes.  
A friend whose just started kegging beer claims a "keg taste" is 
perceptable.  Could be forced CO2, could be the keg, could be contamination?
BUT,  I haven't noticed it, and have been kegging for a year.

There are differences in the "quality" of carbonation between my
bottled and kegged beers.  But I prefere the fine/small bubble creaminess
of the kegs to the bottles.  Plus it sure is easier!

Kegging a mead opens up filtering possibilities that could be a benefit.
BUT  It sure can dissapear faster.  Why not keg half, bottle half :)

> First hand experience, no urban legends, please. * Who us?! Never...<huf>

 Also, is there a Mead mailing list similar to HBD?

Yes- But it's not kosher to post it, so ask me via e-mail.  :)

 thanks,                                You're welcome
 jim                                                        John.

**
Barleywine
the yeast used, alcohol content, carbonation, whim of the brewer?  If it's 
alcohol content, when does doppelbock cross the line and become barleywine?
Are there any commercial barleywines?

*   yes. Never tried one (unhappy sigh....yet ;).  
Sierra Nevada's Bigfoot.  Heard it's heavenly!

Tried a friends barleywine.  Yum.  Malty, thick, rich, potent.
I WILL try one ...like real soon.

AHA sez:  1.065-1.120 OG.   6- 12 percent alcohol by volume.  
Copper or dark brown.  Fruity, bittersweet.  Can use strong beer
yeast, or champagne/wine yeasts.  Aged 6 months to a year.
(but they are not   per-se   "lagered")

Doppels may overlap in strength, but you're also talking lager yeast
vs. ale/wine yeasts.  There are differences. It's a matter of style.
*
>  3 weeks ago I racked it again and had a taste (ok, a big lager glass).  
It's still noticeably sweet, and I'm running _low_ on homebrew. ...
*   Get another carboy!  :)
horribly desecrate my first actual lager, I'd like to bring it up to room 
temperature *(about 74F)* for a few days to accelerate fermentation. ...

*   Lagers should be warmed at the end of lagering.  But not that warm.
More like 60. It helps them break down (diacetyl I think? Reference-check)
If you are trying to make a true lager...patience is warranted.
They will benefit from long cold .  Clarity, smoothness, balance.  
Check the specific gravity.  If it is down to say 15 or less (I usually
end up between 12 and 8) then- give it a bit of warming (cold closet?
or basement handy?) then bottle.  You can continue lagering in bottles.

                                John.
**
filtering and stuff...

>>...I[f] you have followed the basics of good
>> wholsome brewing (sanitation) there won't be any bacteria you 
>> need to filter out...

>No, actually (a) there will be bacteria there regardless of how careful
you've been, and (b) it takes serious filtering to get bacteria out.  As
to point (a), Tom's principle is right, that if you're careful the bacteria
population will be much lower than if you're sloppy.  But it's still sub-
stantial*.  You can't get rid of them all; most of what care and sanitation
gives you is keeping the bacteria at bay long enough that the yeast get
the available food in early fermentation...keeping the wolf at bay, as it
were.  On the other side, for point (b), even if you did filter, would you
really want to filter that severely?             Dick Dunn

* I dunno Dick.  At the beginning-  bact/yeast, then LOTS of yeast, and an
unhospitable environment for bacteria.  If they are inhibited early on
they may be pretty well dormant.  Yes I agree it is next to impossible
to ELIMINATE bacteria, but it is also not TOO difficult to GREATLY
REDUCE their presence.  Wild yeasts are also likely floating around.

As for filtering.  Filtering bacteria requires less than a 1 micron filter.
I don't want to do that to my beer.  Filtering DOES present advantages,
but also potential disadvantages.
Chill haze, protein "colloids", some cellular material, and chunks
of anything else still floating around can be filtered out.
A level of 2 to 3 microns will do this. 5 microns will let almost
all cells pass.  as low as .1 micron (bacterial filter- sterilizes) will
clean up a beer, but will also CLEAN UP A BEER.  Body, head retention
and other qualities will be lost.  The intermediate levels (2-3) will
possibly remove some body, but not too much ( I hope).

Much of this clearing can be achieved by adding clarifying agents and such.
But time is also a factor. Filtering is instantaneous. Clarification
can take time.  I keg, and would prefer to have NO sediment if possible.
But I haven't yet taken the filter plung (PICTURE: arms outstretched, 
falling back into body of water). It's the expense at this point.
But it may well happen.  Someday.  But I have looked into it!

The question started because a bottling friend has access to the equipment
and wanted to know how and why it could be done.  I wouldn't just
dismiss the idea as some people do, without first examining the pro's
and con's.  
 - ---
/** "I gave you a 50:50 chance, and you weren't even close! " MR. BIG **\
______------___John (The Coyote) Wyllie SLK6P at cc.usu.edu_____------______


***

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Date: Friday,  3 December 93 12:55:23 CST
From: LLDSC at utxdp.dp.utexas.edu
Subject: DOING THE MASH



Howdy,

I've been brewing with extracts for about nine months or so now. I've
become fairly comfortable with the process and want to move on to bigger
and better things.

I've been reading the chapter on mashing over and over again in TNCJOH and
think I know what's going on. I'm just wondering if anyone out there has
any tips/experience/advice/warnings to share with me. In particular, I'm
wondering what kind of a lautering tun would be best (igloo cooler, bucket, etc
).

Private e-mail is okay if you think this won't be of interest to the more
experienced out there.

Remember, there's no "i" in Team.

                        Scott LLDSC at utxdp.dp.utexas.edu

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Date: Fri, 3 Dec 93 14:28:34 EST
From: bgaughan at su19bb.ess.harris.com (Brady Gaughan)
Subject: Frankenmuth German Dark

I just received a 6 pack of this from my Beers Across America subscription,
and I really enjoyed it.  Anyone else out there heard of it, or tried
it?  It's made in (you guessed it) Frankenmuth, Michigan.

Anyone tried to duplicate this beer?
_______________________________________________________________________________
Brady E. Gaughan		       Internet:bgaughan at su19bb.ess.harris.com
Harris Corporation
Government Aerospace Systems Div.      "They call me mister know-it-all,
Melbourne, FL                           I am so eloquent.	
					Perfection is my middle name...
					and whatever rhymes with eloquent" 
_______________________________________________________________________________

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Date: Fri, 03 Dec 93 11:42:34 PST
From: Larry Richardson <richards at priacc.com>
Subject: Hi there!  Request for help.

Greetings to my fellow zymurgists.  I am a (very) new subscriber to
this forum, although I've been making beer for nearly 7 years.

As I am new to this forum, I hope the following is an acceptable
question to post to this list.  If not, please excuse the waste of
bandwidth and I promise to never, ever do it again.

I have recently restarted producing beer after a two-year hiatus.
Before I stopped, I had been obtaining my equipment/malt/hops, etc.,
from a local beer/wine supply store.  Now, unfortunately, the only
supply store in the area is a long way away, and geared more to
winemaking.

So.  I've started using mail-order.  The mail order house I'm using
only provides the malt in pouches, which I've never used before.  To
be honest, I'm not sure I like them very much, other than for storage.

My question is, does anyone have a mail-order house they recommend
and/or has anyone who does use the pouches discovered an
easy/efficient way to get all the stuff out of the pouch.

I look forward to reading everything that comes out in this forum, and
I hope to hear from you all about these questions.

Thanks for your time!

Larry
- --
Larry Richardson, Primary Access Corp --  Work: richards at priacc.com
                                          Home: larry9 at netcom.com
Chairman/Chairperson/Committee Head, Department of Redundancy and
                                     Repitition Department
- --Time is an Illusion.  Space is an Illusion.  Beer is Good.


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Date: Fri, 3 Dec 1993 11:34:49 -0800
From: "Paul Jasper" <paul at rational.com>
Subject: Re: Questions from COYOTE <SLK6P at cc.usu.edu> on filtering

On 3 Dec,  0:27, Dick Dunn wrote:
> Subject: RE: Questions from COYOTE <SLK6P at cc.usu.edu> on filtering
>
> Tom Clifton <0002419419 at mcimail.com> writes:
> > My thoughts on filtering....  Why bother!  According to Papazian a bit
> > of yeast helps add to the stability of the brew...
>
> This sounds backwards!  (doesn't matter whether Charlie said it or not;-)
> Conventional wisdom [did JS just twitch?] is that you keep more character
> by not filtering, but if you're going to keep the beer for a while you're
> better off filtering it.  Be that as it may, what's the reasoning behind
> yeast adding stability.
>
>-- End of excerpt from Dick Dunn

Could it be that it is better to have the yeast consume any free oxygen
than to have it oxidize your beer?  Or maybe, if your fermentation is not
complete, any yeast or bacteria still present after the filtration still
has a growth medium.  If your filtration was more successful at filtering
out the yeast, the bacteria will have more chance to dominate if you keep
the beer for a while.

Comments?


- -- 
- -- Paul Jasper
- -- RATIONAL
- -- Object-Oriented Products
- --

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Date:    Fri, 03 Dec 93 13:46 CST
From: "Bitheaded geek" <$W$PR42%LUCCPUA.BITNET at UICVM.UIC.EDU>
Subject: name change

Just in case you need to know, my real name is Peter Brauer, and I am
from Chicago.

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Date: Fri, 3 Dec 93 14:14:38 EST
From: sdlsb.dnet!73410%sdlcc at swlvx2.msd.ray.com (Carl Howes)
Subject: new brewers

Sorry about the bandwidth, private bounced.  John Palmer, I am willing to
review your first time brewer writeup.

Carl


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Date: Fri, 3 Dec 1993 11:49:52 -0800
From: mfetzer%ucsd.edu at chem.UCSD.EDU (The Rider) (Michael Fetzer)
Subject: Re: Sake Supplies

>From: Mark Stickler Internet Mail Name <mstickle at lvh.com>
>Subject: Sake Supplies
>
>I know Sake is not really beer but will keep bandwidth to a minimum. I read
>Fred Eckhert's book (about six months ago) and now I'm interested in
>getting some of the supplies from a retail homebrew supply store. I'm
>most interested in the yeast and starter rice (kioji I think) but also
>polished rice, etc. Please respond via private email.

Relying to HBD and privately... Sake *is* beer in the sense that it is made
from grain, just fermented a bit differently... 

>From Fred Eckhart's Newsletter (Sake Connection):

Anzen Japanese Imports, Portland OR (503)233-5111
Fun Fermentations, Orange CA (714)532-5125
GEM Cultures, Fort Bragg CA (707)964-2922
Home Winemaking Shop, Woodland Hills CA (818)884-8586
Wine and Beer Magic of Texas, Dallas TX (800)966-4144
Wine Supply Oregon, Portland OR (503)284-2624
Spagnol's, New Westminster BC Canada (800)663-0954

Incidentally, Sake Connection is a fun little newsletter... Fred's willing
to send a free copy or two to anyone interested. If you send me your snail
mail address, I'll give him a list. Won't even cost ya the 29c to request a
copy!

Reply via email to my address below...

Mike


- --
Michael Fetzer                         pgp 2.2 key available on request
Internet:      mfetzer at ucsd.edu        uucp:    ...!ucsd!mfetzer
Bitnet:        FETZERM at SDSC            
HEPnet/SPAN:   SDSC::FETZERM           or       27.1::FETZERM



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Date: Fri, 03 Dec 93 16:28:00 PST
From: Robert Milstead <rmilsted at Zellar.Vantage.GTE.COM>
Subject: hop utilization and BU's


This is my first submission to HBD and as I am new to both HBD and Internet,
 I hope I am following protocols, etc.  If not, please turn down the heat on 
any
flaming you think I deserve.  BTW, any information on sources for a 
Microsoft
Windows based utility for exploring Internet would be appreciated.  Mail me
 direct.

There has been a lot of discussion about Hop utilization and hopping rates 
in
the last couple of weeks since I've been eavesdropping on y'all such as the
high hoping rates of I.P.A.s of 100 to 200 BU's and much puzzlement
 expressed over why some beers are not as bitter as expected even though
 a lot of hops were used:

Example:

Andy Phillips writes in #1287:

>Despite the high hopping rate - I can't remember the IBU rating from BRF,
>but it was well over 100 - this is not noticeable bitter. I suspect that
>this is partly because the flavour is overwhelmingly malty, and the hop
>taste can't get through, and partly because of the lower hop utilization
>at high SGs.

He also indicated that he "Boiled 90 min with 5 oz Goldings"

I'm not picking on you Andy, it was just a good example.

The unpredictability of results when hopping may be due more to the
isomerization of the hops than hop utilization.  Isomerization is an 
altering
of the molecular structure of the substance in hops that imparts bitterness
to beer.  It is the isomerized molecules that give the bitterness.  Only a
fraction of the hops are isomerized during the boil (around 25% max) and
the degree of isomerization is directly proportional to the length of time 
the
hops are in the boil.  Maximum isomerization occurs at around 45 min. of
exposure to the boil.  After one hour isomerization actually begins to 
reverse!
Perhaps this explains why Andy's 90 min. boil was not as bitter as expected.

So, actual IBU's can not be calculated without taking %Isomerization into
account.  Since learning this information from the master brewer at a local
contract brewery, my beers have been much more predictable in terms of
bitterness and better overall.  I believe this is because I now brew to a
specific target bitterness (based on style).

Here are some formulas you can apply to calculate the IBU's for your
recipes.

                Hops and bitterness units in beer

1 BU = 1 mg/L of Isomerized Alpha Acid (IA)

In brewing, Isomerization is the process of altering the Alpha
Acid molecule in hops through the application of heat.  The
altered (Isomerized) molecule imparts bitterness to the mash.

The taste threshold for bitterness is around 12 BU.
Anything less can not be detected. (Swill)

Bud                       11 BU
Pilsner Urquell          40 BU
Typical Ale or Lager     20 - 25 BU

                Formulas for Hops and Bitterness

              Hops (g) =        S   *   BU
                     ---------------    
                              %I * %A * 1000

where:    S    = Size of batch in litres (There are 18.9 Litres
in 5 gallons)
     BU   = Bitterness Units
     %I   = The percent of Isomerization reached after a specific
         time of boiling. (expressed as decimal) *Note 1
     %A   = Alpha Acid content in percent of the hops being used
         (expressed as decimal)

So, for a 5 gallon batch where:
 -  All bitterness will be from boiling hops and no finishing hops
   will be used
 -  A 45 minute boil of hops results in a 25% Isomerization (.25 )
 -  The hops being used have a 5% Alpha rating (.05)
 -  The bitterness desired is 40 BU's

 18.9   *   40    =      756  = 60.48 grams * .0353 = 2.1 oz. (*Note 2)
 -----------------       ------
 .25 * .05 * 1000         12.5

If you wanted to add 5 more BU's the above for finishing where:

 - A 5 minute boil of hops results in a 5% Isomerization (.05 )

 - The hops being used have a 2.9% Alpha rating (.029)

 18.9   *   5     =      94.5 = 65.2 grams *  .0353 = 2.3 oz. (*Note 2)
 -----------------        ----
 .05 * .029 * 1000        1.45

If you know how much hops you have put into a beer that you liked
in the past you can calculate the bitterness by the formula:

BU = Hops * %I * %A * 1000
            -------------------------------
          S


*Note 1 - 5% of available Alpha Acid will isomerize in 5 minutes,
       25% in 45 minutes.
*Note 2 - There are .0353 ounces (oz.) in a gram.


Hope someone finds this as useful as I did.  Have a homebrew before
attempting any calculations at home.

Think globally, Drink locally.

rmilsted at zellar.vantage.gte.com (Bob Milstead)


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Date: Fri, 3 Dec 93 10:42:43 EST
From: richk at icad.COM (Richard Kasperowski)
Subject: Corsendonk Monks Ale ?

   Anyone enjoyed Corsendonk Monks Ale and can share why it is so
   expensive?  Can "they" make money stocking a brew this expensive?
   What is its shelf life?  And, of course, what does it taste like?
   Thank you.

Around Boston, a 24 oz. bottle goes for about $7.50, if memory serves
me right.  If you bought four 24 oz. bottles (96 oz. of beer), that
would cost $30 by my calculations.  Is that 100 oz. bottle worth the
extra money?  (Is the price I remember too low?)  BTW, the 24 oz.
bottles have painted labels, although I can't tell whether they're
hand-painted.

As I recall, the inside of the bottle contains a bottle-conditioned
Belgian ale that tasted pretty good (a beer judge I am not).

- --
Rich Kasperowski     richk at icad.com

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Date: 03 Dec 93 17:37:55 -0600
From: mbarre at nomvs.lsumc.edu
Subject: address

- --Interpart.Boundary.19931203173756273
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; x-DC370=header

Document name: MEMO 12/03/1993 09:09:52.929
      Subject: address
       Author: Barre, Michael
        Class: MEMO
Document type: MESSAGE
 Attached msg:




- --Interpart.Boundary.19931203173756273
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; x-DC370=body

Ed Quier,
  What is your address.  Mail bounced to ELQ1 at maint at hbpp.
Now, back to the show.
- --Interpart.Boundary.19931203173756273


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Date: Fri,  3 Dec 93 15:17:00 -0640
From: roy.rudebusch at travel.com (Roy Rudebusch)
Subject: Homebrew Digest #1288 (December 03, 1993)

UNSUB

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Date: Fri, 3 Dec 1993 17:47:49 -0800 (PST)
From: Jeremy Ballard Bergsman <jeremybb at leland.Stanford.EDU>
Subject: hopping out/ionic concentration

Chris Campanelli (and others) have written about high IBU's wondering 
whether they are correct, in other words, is the Rager formula correct?
                                  
It would seem to me that for a giveln length of boil, say 60', there is
a practiacal, although not absolte, limit to the bitterness one can achieve.
The bittrering effect is limited by the solubility of the notr-yet-isomerized
hop resins, which is low.  Adding more hops doesn't help much past a certain
point since you can't get any more resin in solution to be isomerized.  The
only solution iwould be to boil longer.

Has anyone actually determined the IBU f one of these beers that was made
with a lot of hops?  If not I will add this question to muy upcommingseries 
of hop experimental beers (calling you soon Mark).
 
(Please excuse my inablity to backspace and my poor typing.  Using an 
antique telnet.)
 
- -------------------------------------
A question:

When people write something like, "sulphate levels higher than 200 ppm 
enhance hop bitterness." (lets not argue about whether this is a sharp cutovff
obviously it's not) do they mean the concentration in the finished ber or
in the starting water.  People often bndy about numbers like the ionic content
of Burton water, but the perception of bitterness is taking place in the beer
that is probably at least 150% the ion concentration of the staring water.

I do myt calculations for salt additions as follows:
1) Make sure that the mash has sufficient CA, proper pH, and is not overly
buffered by (H)CO3.
2) Add NaCl and MgSO4 as desired for the recipe t the boil, based on what
the final volume will be.  Am I adding less thean others?  Do other people
concentate their ions from the concentrations in the literature in the boil?
 
Jeremy Bergsman


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End of HOMEBREW Digest #1289, 12/04/93