FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Rob Gardner, Digest Coordinator


Contents:
  re: mead (Dick Dunn)
  How hot is uncool? ("Steven W. Smith")
  dishwasher bottles - YES! (aew)
  Forced Carbonation or Natural (cong)
  Improving extract beers. (lyons)
  Re: Sam Adams taste-alike (aew)
  Formula for Fullers ESB (rprice)
  Sam Smith's Oatmeal Stout (gorman)
  more on bottles (dan_fox)
  answers to kegging questions ("Anton Verhulst")
  Samuel Smith's Oatmeal Stout (Earle M. Williams)
  Batch Sparging/Special B/Miscellany (npyle)
  kettle mashing on a Cajun cooker/gelatin & yeast (SWEENERB)
  Re: Brewing Wine coolers (Robert F. Dougherty)
  Sanitizers/Carapils/Bottling/StarterOG/HopStorage/Fruit/GrainStorage (korz)
  Mill adjustment (Eric Wade)
  French Brewing news (Chris Estes)
  Re: Specific Gravity readings ("Mark B. Alston")
  Use of Wort Chillers (JOHN.L.HALE)
  Re: Shipping brew, Brewing Wine coolers ("Mark B. Alston")
  miller stout (jim pockstaller)
  ScortchCleanup/CommercialFGs/LagerStarters/lowOG (korz)
  None (George Tempel)
  Ovens Yet Again (Jeff Frane)
  threads (LLAPV)


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----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 3 Jan 94 01:01:47 MST (Mon)
From: rcd at raven.eklektix.com (Dick Dunn)
Subject: re: mead

Carl Howes <sdlsb.dnet!73410%sdlcc at swlvx2.msd.ray.com> [if *that* isn't a
broken-in-transit address, I don't know what is!] writes:

> A question about mead.  I racked my first mead to secondaries last night
> and, on drinking the hydrometer sample, found a nasty biting plastic
> flavor.  I recall a comment made recently that off flavors are not unusual
> in young mead, but this off?

Yes, it could be that far off and still have potential for becoming a good
mead.

Tell us more about what you did, in particular: what yeast and what fer-
mentation temperatures, any hops?

The name I've got for the taste of an awkward young mead is "Listerine".
This is not to disparage mouthwash, but only to observe that several people
I know independently came up with the same label for the taste.  Anyway, if
that description fits, comfort yourself with the knowledge that it does age
out.  (Usually it's within a year, but we had a pomegranate melomel that
took a couple of years and an apricot that took almost four.  I've no idea
why.)

I changed several things in my meadmaking along the way, and I've not had a
young mead show this sort of character in some time...but I'm not entirely
sure which change made the difference.  The two changes that I think were
the most likely:
  * I use wine or champagne yeasts, and if I can get any info on the yeast
    I choose one that's low in ester production.  Ale yeasts seem like a
    bad idea, even aside from their lack of alcohol-tolerance.
  * I don't use hops...hops are for beer.  OK, for a bragget you'd probably
    add hops, but otherwise not.  They're not needed, and the taste clashes
    with the honey.
 ---
Dick Dunn    rcd at eklektix.com   -or-   raven!rcd    Boulder, Colorado USA
   ...Simpler is better.

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Date: 03 Jan 1994 03:47:30 -0700 (MST)
From: "Steven W. Smith" <SMITH_S at gc.maricopa.edu>
Subject: How hot is uncool?

  Got more questions:  how hot does wort have to be for HSA to occur?  I 
noticed (nay, gagged on) the aroma of wet cardboard in a glass of an 
all-extract beer.  Could that scent be due to anything else?  I've never had
that problem before.  It was also my only grainless batch _and_ used 
unfamiliar extracts.  I don't recall doing anything that would have aerated
the hot wort.

  Next: how do _you_ rehydrate dry malt extract?  I'm getting very fond
of Briess* dark, but now that I've got HSA on the brain it bothers me to do so 
much stirring of hot wort.  I've been stirring it in when the water's hot, but 
well before boiling. (BTW, Briess wasn't involved in the aformentioned boxbrau).

  Of possible interest: I'll be brewing a 1 gallon (TM) batch of mead cold; 
filtered honey, no boiling.  I just brewed one by boiling that gave off a 
_wonderful_ spicy aroma for about 3 minutes - I presume all the nifty aromatic 
whatevers in the boiled batch are gone fer good, and I'm betting they were 
tasty. The recipe will be 3 or 4 pounds honey, water and yeast.  Preliminary 
results should be in in a couple of months. 

* If anyone has a reasonably priced source for Briess extract in bulk, I'd 
sure like to hear from you in private mail.  TIA
  _,_/|
  \o.O;   Steven W. Smith, Programmer/Analyst
 =(___)=  Glendale Community College, Glendale Az. USA 
    U     SMITH_S at GC.BITNET
          smith_s at gc.maricopa.edu
"All good people are asleep and dreaming" - Skinny Puppy

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Date: Mon, 03 Jan 94 09:09:11 -0500
From: aew at spitfire.unh.edu
Subject: dishwasher bottles - YES!

Bruce,

   I always use my dishwasher - with 1/4 cup of b-brite instead of soap
and the HEAT DRY CYCLE (most important). I've never had any sanitation
problems with the bottles (no gushers, bombs, or sour batches)

   Using the autoclave seems slightly too much work when you have
almost the same tool in your kitchen (even if it only gets the bottles
to about 180 degrees, that's pretty good).

   I hope this helps.

 -Allan Wright

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Date: 3 Jan 94 14:50:45 GMT
From: cssc!cong at scuzzy.attmail.com
Subject: Forced Carbonation or Natural

In HBD 1312 Jack Tavares askes

>1. Should I carbonate with corn sugar/DME or with the CO2?
>What have people found to be the best/easiest?

I have been kegging for some time and have tried both forced carbonation
and natural.  The forced carbonation is quick and easy.  It can, with certain
beer styles, give you a drinkable beer with a fairly nice head in a few days.
I feel the head isn't as rich and creamy as a naturally carbonated beer.
If you seek beer in a hurry, force carbonate.  To me, that's not why I brew
but when your running low or only have a few 5gal kegs, it is convienient.
To me natural carbonation is the way to go.  I have many kegs and always 
have many gallons on hand.  Both are easy, Simply prime in the Keg after
you inject some CO2 and before you rack. You simply blow off 1/2 a glass
when you naturally carbonate to rid yourself of the spent yeast.
I recommend you try both and see what you prefer.

>2. Are there gizmos available to allow me to hook up two
>kegs at once for conditioning/serving?

Your kegging system most likely includes a single line manifold.
This can be replaced with a multiline manifold quite easily.
They can most probably be purchased where you got your kegging set-up
or through the mail. You can find several Mail Order houses in Zymurgy
or other beer related periodicals.


cong


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Date: Mon, 3 Jan 94 09:49:46 EST
From: lyons%adc1 at swlvx2.msd.ray.com
Subject: Improving extract beers.

Is it important to boil the hops with the malt?

On the back of a label from a can of extract malt I read a 
procedure in which it was suggested to boil the bittering hops in 
water and add the extract after the boil was finished.  This 
seems to make some sense.  The "extract twang" is due in part to 
caramelization of the malt sugars.  Since caramelization is a 
function the time of boiling the malt, it seems wise to limit 
the time the malt is boiled.  Boiling the hops in just water 
also makes sense from a hop utilization standpoint, since the 
percent utilization will be greater for a low gravity boil 
(water).  Would following such a procedure improve the taste of 
extract brews?  Any comments?

Chris

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Date: Mon, 03 Jan 94 10:08:03 -0500
From: aew at spitfire.unh.edu
Subject: Re: Sam Adams taste-alike

Here's one that will keep Koch from getting a few $$$:
This is from a previous HBD i think.

weyland at sn.jsc.nasa.gov (WEYLAND,MARK) writes:

>After all the negative words concerning Sam Adams I hope I don't get flamed 
>off the planet for requesting recipes to approximate their beer or one with 
>a similar taste.  I am new to homebrewing (1 batch so far) and as of yet 
>can not make a true lager, so I hope there are some recipes for ales which 
>have this taste.  Please Email responses.  Thanks in advance.

*I* like the beer.  And, hey, I haven't been sued yet.

I hope you get a whiter, lasting-er head than the real SA.

                  Samuel Adams Taste-Alike Beer

For 5 gallons:
INGREDIENTS

1 can Munton & Fison Premium Kit
1 Packet yeast (under cap)
2  1 lb. packages Amber DME
1  1 oz package Hallertauer hop pellets
1  1 oz package Tettnang hop pellets
1 cup corn sugar (for priming)

DIRECTIONS

Remove label from Kit and stand in warm water for 15-20 minutes. 
In a pot sufficient to boil 2 gallons of liquid, empty DME.
Open can of malt and empty contents into pot onto DME.
Using one gallon hot water, rinse out can and add to pot.
Turn on heat and carefully bring to a boil.  Ass package of
  Hallertauer hops,  Adjust heat and simmer for 20 minutes.
Add Tettnang hops and simmer for 10 minutes.
Meanwhile, put 4 gallons cold water into primary fermenter.  
When boil is complete, empty hot wort into cold water.  When
  temperature reaches 80 degrees Fahrenheit, open yeast and
  sprinkle onto surface of the wort and cover tightly.
Place fermentation lock with water in lid.
Allow beer to ferment for four days in primary fermenter, 
Transfer to clean secondary fermenter and allow to ferment for an
  additional ten to fourteen days.
Syphon beer from secondary fermenter into clean bottling bucket. 
Dissolve priming sugar in a small amount of beer and add to
  bottling bucket.  Fill clean bottles and cap.  Let stand for five
  days at room temperature and then move to a cool place.
Beer will be carbonated in three weeks and will improve for
  several months.

(AEW) - A friend of mine has brewed this several times with great
success - he adds an additional pound (total of 3) of DME.

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Date: Mon, 03 Jan 1994 10:09:45 -0500
From: rprice at CBMSE.NRL.NAVY.MIL
Subject:  Formula for Fullers ESB

Hi;
Does anyone know of a good formulation for Fullers ESB ?

I brew either extract or Mash, the important part is the taste.





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Date: Mon, 03 Jan 94 10:27:37 EST
From: gorman at aol.com
Subject: Sam Smith's Oatmeal Stout

Paul H. writes:

>Subject: Samuel Smith's Oatmeal Stout
>Not a direct brewing question, but could someone ve
nture
>an opinion on whether or not this beer is worth $17.00 a 
>six-pack?

Many stores sell Samuel Smith's
 by the single "Yorkshire Pint" bottle. It's about $2.50/bottle in the DC
area. Not much of an investment fo
r a taste.

It is the Oatmeal Stout to die for, IMHO.

Bill G

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Date: Mon, 03 Jan 94 10:47:36 EST
From: dan_fox at ccmail.GSFC.NASA.GOV
Subject: more on bottles


     Hello all!
     
     I'm new to brewing, the Net, and this list. That being said,
     
     I don't worry all that much about bottles. When I started, I weighed 6 
     each of Bud bar longneck returnables and Sam Adams throwaways. They 
     all weighed between 285 and 310 grams, with no discernible 
     distribution vs. origin. So I don't think that there is enough 
     difference to be worried about. I didn't do crush testing, burst psi, 
     or any other test-to-ultimate-failure.
     
     There is a difference in lip structure, evidently (at least with my 
     bottle capper). Some bottles take a cap better than others, with Sam 
     and Bud being good, and Aass and Bass Ale (among others) being bad. I 
     use Sam bottles because I generate a steady stream of them, and I like 
     the shoulder in the bottle for decanting.
     
     Thanks, someone, for the tip on using the oven to sterilize bottles. I 
     had often wondered about it, and I think I'll try it.
     
     Dan Fox

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Date: Mon, 03 Jan 94 10:51:38 EST
From: "Anton Verhulst" <verhulst at zk3.dec.com>
Subject: answers to kegging questions


>1. Should I carbonate with corn sugar/DME or with the CO2?
>
>Papazian's book mentions using DME/corn sugar and the literature
>i got with the kegging system says to use the CO2?
>
>What have people found to be the best/easiest?

As always, there are trade-offs. You can use DME and wait a couple of weeks
to carbonate.  There will be sediment at the bottom that will wind up in the
first couple of glasses.  This can be reduced by cutting about an inch (2.5cm)
from the end of the pickup tube.

If your beer is reasonably clear before kegging, forced carbonation will give
you beer that is ready to drink. NOW!  You can also carbonate to very precise
levels by adjusting the presure. I force carbonate and my 10 pound CO2 tank
will last me for about 20 batches.  Most people have 5 pound tanks and may 
tire of getting it refilled often, and therefore may opt to carbonate naturally.

>2. Are there gizmos available to allow me to hook up two
>kegs at once for conditioning/serving?

Yes, a siple T fitting and some hose and an "in" connecter will do the job.
The problem that arises is, what if you have a lager that should be chilled and
well carbonated and an English style ale that should be served warmer an much
less carbonated?  Unless you get multiple regulators all kegs would be
at the same pressure.
be served





- --Tony Verhulst

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Date: Mon, 3 Jan 94 9:15:16 MST
From: Earle M. Williams <earlew at drc.usbm.gov>
Subject: Samuel Smith's Oatmeal Stout

> 
> Not a direct brewing question, but could someone venture
> an opinion on whether or not this beer is worth $17.00 a 
> six-pack? I've noticed it on the shelves a couple of times
> and it sounds very tempting, but I've been reluctant to
> take the plunge.
> 
> |  Paul Hethmon			|     Anonymous ftp for
> |  hethmon at cs.utk.edu		|  Woodworking: cs.rochester.edu
> |  University of Tennessee	|     HomeBrew: sierra.stanford.edu
> |  Knoxville, Tennessee		|    OS/2 Info: ftp-os2.cdrom.com

$17.00US a six-pack??  Where are you shopping?  Granted, it is a fine
brew.  I've purchased single bottles at a local watering hole (ouch!)
but I think I've seen sixers of this fine beer in the $10-11 range
at a liquor warehouse in Denver.  For me, it isn't worth it at $17. 
- --
Earle M. Williams
U.S. Bureau of Mines
Denver, Colorado  USA
(Internet) earlew at drc.usbm.gov

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Date: Mon, 3 Jan 94 9:48:25 MST
From: npyle at n33.stortek.com
Subject: Batch Sparging/Special B/Miscellany

Chuck Mryglot mentions that he batch sparges and then says:

>Now,  - I usually get 20 - 25 pts/lb/gal.

I consistently average 25 pts with a similar setup and procedure.

>      - Is there a relationship between sparge rate and extraction?

Possibly, but I don't think it has a large effect.

>      - Is my process all screwed up?

Only if you want extract rates of over 30 pts.

>      - Does any one else use a similar setup and get similar or better
>        extraction?

See above.

>      - Does any one get 30 - 35 pts/lb/gal?

Only the ones who are lying about their extraction.  I'm joking!!! ;-) ;-) Note
the smileys!  Hey quit throwing those rotten tomatoes!!!!  I believe ALL of the
grain bill should be included though (note a recent thread on gravity points
from black malt, etc.).

Actually, batch sparging leaves behind lots of sugar because you've created a
single concentration of the hot liquor.  With "normal" sparging, the
concentration of sugar (i.e., the specific gravity) drops as you pull wort out
the bottom and add water in the top.  You lose this advantage with batch
sparging, but it sure is easy.  If you really want to increase your yield, you
might try a second batch sparge after the first one is finished draining.  In
this case, you should adjust the volume of the first sparge downward so you
don't end up with too much liquor, and so you don't oversparge.

**

Jim Busch and Jeff Frane write that Special B is not the same as chocolate
malt.  I know Belgian Special B isn't chocolate malt, it is a very dark
crystal (maybe more???).  I guess the chocolate malt I've been buying isn't
too impressive, though, and the Special B seems to be a big improvement.  It
is the best choice for me at this time.

**

Jeff Frane writes:

>Hey!  How come Norm Pyle can submit an article with lines greater than
>80 chars in length, and when I respond to it, my article gets bounced!
>NO FAIR!

Life isn't fair, Jeff.  Its a conspiracy...  Actually, I get bounced regularly
for this violation; I don't understand it.

**

Paul Hethmon writes:

>Not a direct brewing question, but could someone venture
an opinion on whether or not this beer is worth $17.00 a
six-pack? I've noticed it on the shelves a couple of times
and it sounds very tempting, but I've been reluctant to
take the plunge.

Paul, it is not worth $17 per six, for one reason:  freshness.  Most of the
SSOS he get is quite old.  If it didn't sit in a warehouse on the docks for six
months, it undoubtedly sat in the liquor store for that long.  I have no
problem spending good money for good beer, but SS products are overpriced for
the beer that I pour into my glass.  It is a $17 gamble that I don't take any
more (actually only $12 around here).  Now, if I could get it fresh...

Cheers,
Norm

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Date: Mon, 03 Jan 1994 11:22:09 -0600 (CST)
From: SWEENERB at memstvx1.memst.edu
Subject: kettle mashing on a Cajun cooker/gelatin & yeast

For Christmas this year my inlaws gave me a Cajun cooker and now I'm thinking
about moving my brewing out of the kitchen.  I have been doing all-grain
batches using two pots on our gas range with mashing/sparging in a picnic
cooler.  When I make the big move to the Cajun cooker I plan on getting one
big 8 gal. pot and kettle mashing.  I imagined the process would go something
like:

1.  heat water in kettle to strike temp and add grains
2.  mash for 90 min.
3.  separate wort from grains (either use the EASYMASHER approach of putting
a drain in bottom of kettle or use a metal racking cane) and put in one of my
other pots
4.  add heated sparge water and collect more wort.  This is what I am fuzzy 
about; how do you heat sparge water and at the same time keep mash hot with only
one heat source?
5.  dump grains from kettle when finished sparging, add wort and boil as usual

If any of you brewers out there who are utilizing this method could fill in
some of the missing details or better describe how the sparging process works
here I would really appreciate it.

As always,

Bob Sweeney
sweenerb at msuvx1.memst.edu

Oh yeah, while I'm thinking of it, I have been using gelatin as a clarifier on
most of my last batches with good success.  On my last batch I saved the
dregs from the secondary which is probably composed of yeast which has been
absorbed by the added gelatin.  Can this be gelatin/yeast mixture be repitched?
I was wondering if the yeast would go through a complete fermentation cycle
after being absorbed by the gelatin.  For what its worth, I've used plain
gelatin purchased at the grocery store (comes in a box of 32 - 1/4 oz packages)
which is much more economical than the 1 oz portions available at my local
homebrew store and works exactly the same.
 

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Date: Mon, 3 Jan 1994 09:54:53 -0800
From: wolfgang at cats.ucsc.edu (Robert F. Dougherty)
Subject: Re: Brewing Wine coolers

>From: tgray at nlbbs.com (Timothy Gray)
>Subject: Shipping brew, Brewing Wine coolers
 ...
>  The other question is like the one Dan Wood asked a couple days ago about
>making fruit flavored sparkling waters.  Unfortunately, my girlfriend
>doesn't share my enthusiasm for a freshly brewed ale.  She does like
>wine coolers a lot and, being new to brewing, I'm wondering what it
>takes to make a batch of it.  Thanks in advance for any info.
>
>                          Tim Gray                  tgray at nlbbs.com

Wine coolers are basically just wine, fruit juice and carbonation.  You can try
some white wine, orange juice and seltzer water for starters.  Perhaps starting
with cheap champange and ommiting the seltzer will produce a less watered down
version.

Or, if you really want to "brew" something nice, get a gallon jug of
preservativeless apple juice, open it, pour out a cup of juice, add about
1/4 packet of champange yeast, and cover with an airlock.  (A piece of 
sanitized saran wrap secured with a rubber band works fine.)  Let this stuff
ferment till still (ale temps) and prime and bottle as you would beer (try
about 1/5 or 1/6 a cup of cornsugar per gallon).  In a few weeks, crack one
open and drink straight (it'll be dry) or mix it with some fruit juice or
fruit syrup. (Thawed frozen concentrate makes nice fruit syrup- adds lots of
flavor and sweetness without diluting the drink much.)  I just made some
with raspberry juice concentrate and some citrus blend concentrate.  (Rave
reviews from all who tried 'em at a new years party.)

Here's a question of my own:

Has anyone tried playing with thermoelectric modules?  (They're chips which act
as heat pumps when a current is passed through them.  A few cooler makers have
used them in electric coolers.)  I've been looking for a small used fridge for
my brew closet (space is tight!) and can't find one.  I'm considering building
an insulated box and refridgerating it myself.  The solid-state system
appeals to me cause I don't want to mess with hoses, coils, compressors, etc.
and I just plain like neat, new gadgets.

Any info apperciated, but I'm really trying to find a source for the modules.
I've tried all the local electronics shops and Edmund Scientific- no luck.  

thanks,
bob dougherty
wolfgang at cats.ucsc.edu
 

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Date: Mon, 3 Jan 94 12:30 CST
From: korz at iepubj.att.com
Subject: Sanitizers/Carapils/Bottling/StarterOG/HopStorage/Fruit/GrainStorage

Russ writes:
>  Re. sanitizing solutions:  I've got a 5-gallon plastic bucket that I
>keep filled with a strong, almost saturated, solution of B-Brite.  As 
>long as I remember to tightly seal the cover, it remains active (ie. it 
>is still very "slippery") for a long time (months).  I even store things 
>such as rubber stoppers and plastic fermentation locks right in the bucket.

A word of warning.  I'm not a chemist, but I ran this across one and I think
I have this right:  B-Brite and One-Step are primarily Sodium Percarbonate.
When you mix Sodium Percarbonate with water, you get something that is like
Hydrogen Peroxide (H2O2) and Sodium Carbonate (Washing Soda).  It is the H2O2
that is the sanitizing agent.  After a short while (I don't know how long)
the Hydrogen Peroxide loses all it's extra oxygen and becomes water.  The
slippery feeling is the Sodium Carbonate, which is moderately alkaline, and
thus feels slippery.  I've had problems with soaking bottles overnight in
pure Sodium Carbonate solution (a white film formed on the glass, which I
eventually got off with lemon juice solution, but any weak acid should work)
so you may not want to soak things in B-Brite.

**************
Mike writes:
>When should Carapils be added in the mashing process to obtain
>the residual sweetness assosiated with the grain?  In the past
>I have added it at mashout along with my Crystal but I'm not 
>sure how effective this is.

I have used Carapils quite a few times without mashing it and had success.
It is simply a very light Crystal malt and thus you don't need to mash it.
Some have written that US Dextrine Malt is different from Carapils, but
this is not my experience.  The US Dextrine Malt I've used was very hard
indeed (steely), but I did not mash it and the beer came out clear without
any finings other than Irish Moss.  I believe that Carastan may just be
a trademarked name for light crystal, just as Carapils is (although the
trademark does not appear to be inforced).

***********
Alec writes:
>(2) The proprietor of same store tells me to bottle as soon as the 
>gravity falls below 1.010.  Says that if I let the beer ferment further 
>I'm "losing alcohol".  This doesn't make sense to me.  Can anyone explain?

The proprietor does not know what he/she's talking about.  The practice of
bottling when the gravity falls below 1.010 is an old one that made for
inconsistent carbonation.  Most of the beers I make have FGs higher than
1.010, some higher than 1.025, so this only reinforces the fact that this
is the wrong procedure.  A much better practice is to let your beer ferment
out completely and then add 1/2 to 3/4 cup of corn sugar for a 5 gallon
batch (boiled in a cup or two of water to sanitize) for carbonating in the
bottle.
 
>(3) There seems to have been a lot of discussion about starter 
>gravities in HBD.  I've just gone and made up a pile of starters 
>(boiled up 2 gallons of wort, then canned it in mason jars).  The 
>starters turned out to have a higher SG than I was expecting -- about 
>1.050 vs. the 1.040 that I was trying for.  I suspect that  the 1 Kg 
>bag of dried malt extract I purchased was a little overfull.  In any 
>case, my question is simply this -- does anyone have a good feel for 
>what the optimal SG for a starter is?  Is my 1.050 going to cause a problem?

There has been some debate on this point.  Some say that it's best to use
a starter gravity that is close to the wort it will see, others say that
a lower OG starter makes for better yeast health.  I use starters that have
gravities from 1.020 to 1.040 and have not found *significant* differences
in lag times or fermentation times.  One point of note (that I recall from
HBD a year or so ago) is that large yeast mass does not necessarily mean
good fermentation.  A large yeast mass can be grown using a corn sugar +
yeast nutrient starter, but that the subsequent fermentation from this
starter was sluggish and the final gravity was higher than expected.  I
think that most agree that malt extract or spare wort are the best sugar
sources for starters.

**********
Scott writes:
>The statement 'this will cut the rate of deterioration in half' 
>makes me wonder if I should scrutinize how my local vendor
>(and their suppliers) handle their hops . As I venture into 
>the more exotic varieties of hops, (which are less commonly 
>used), should I assume that I will need more quantity to 
>achieve the same quality because of aging?

By all means everyone should scrutinize your vendors for not only
hops but also grain, extracts and yeast.  I would encourage all
to ask your suppliers to not only provide hops in oxygen-barrier
packaging, but also to print the crop year and packaging date.
Several years ago, many suppliers didn't even supply Alpha Acid
Percentage, but homebrewers got smart and demanded it!
 
>Has anyone developed a scale to indicate rate of deterioration
>of aroma/alpha over time?

Yes there is a factor that shows the *relative* storagability
for hops, but it is not directly useful because it is only one
factor at one temperature and there's no way of knowing what the
deterioration would be at 10F or if the hops spent two weeks in
air at 60F, then a month in air at -20F, then three months in
CO2 at 40F in an O2-barrier bag.  Even if we knew all these factors,
there would be no way of knowing the history of the hops you are
buying.  Then there's compressed bales, versus pellets, versus loose
whole hops, etc.  Here's the table:

variety		storagabilty
		(% of AA remaining
		after 6 months storage
		at 20 degrees C)

CASCADE		48-52
CENTENNIAL	60-65
CHINOOK		65-70
CLUSTER		80-85
FUGGLE		60-65
GALENA		75-80
HALLERTAUER	52-58
LIBERTY		35-55
MOUNT HOOD	50-60
NUGGET		70-80
PERLE		80-85
TETTNANGER	55-60
WILLAMETTE	60-65

The bottom line is: find a supplier who uses CO2- or N2-purged, Oxygen-
barrier bags, labels them with %AA, crop year and packaging date and
support them.  It's the freshest hops you'll get unless you grow them.

************
Chuck writes:
>If you have a food processor, the steel blade, lightly pulsed, will 
>macerate the fruit better than you could do with a meat tenderizing 
>hammer (without the splash too).

I recommend not cutting up the fruit much at all.  It will make racking
much more difficult.  I just lightly crushed the frozen cherries after
blanching and they lost virtually all their color to the beer.  I think
the yeast will get in there and eat the sugars whether you pulverize or
not.

*********
Spencer writes:
>Ed's note about keeping hops reminds me of a trick I recently figured
>out for easily "vacuum sealing" stuff in ziplocs (at least).  I take a
>straw and stick it into the bag, then zip the bag as far shut as I
>can, and hold it tightly around the straw.  Then I suck on the straw
>until no more air comes and quickly draw out the straw, sealing the
>bag behind it.  Not as good as a commercial vacuum pack, but better
>than doing nothing.  And easy & cheap.

I'd just like to point out that with standard Ziplock(tm) bags (which
are made of HDPE) this indeed works for things like grain or DME which
are staled by water vapor, but does little for hops since the oxygen
can come right through the plastic anyway.  Standard ziplock bags, even
the freezer bags are quite thin, actually, and I've noticed that you
can easily smell the grain through them (implying that grain aromatics
are escaping).  I use 6-mil HDPE bags for grain and then vacuum-seal them.
When storing the grain long-term, I use 5- and 7-gallon, white, HDPE buckets
with gasketted lids, which appear to really seal in the aromatics and seal
out moisture.

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Date: Mon, 3 Jan 1994 10:55:21 -0800 (PST)
From: Eric Wade <ericwade at CLASS.ORG>
Subject: Mill adjustment


Happy New Year!  I rec'd an adjustable Glatt malt mill for xmas:).  Does
anyone have any suggestions on where to begin with gapping it.  I know
that the proof is in the milling, but I've never milled my own grain
before and would like some help with getting started.  I've got feeler
guages for gapping plugs, etc.  I realize that the gap is somehat
dependent on the grain used.  I plan on using either US 2-row
(Klages/Harrington) and/or De Wolf-Cosyns Belgian ale malt.  Also, what
should I be looking for in terms of the milled grain?  Should the grains
be crushed completely open, only gently squeezed, shredded into flour,
etc.  I know from following some earlier posts the basic idea, but a
little refresher would be appreciated. 

TIA,

Eric Wade <ericwade at class.org>
U.S. Court of Appeals for the Ninth Circuit, Library
San Francisco



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Date: Mon, 3 Jan 94 14:15:42 -0500
From: cestes at argos5.DNET.NASA.GOV (Chris Estes)
Subject: French Brewing news

Hi all...

While not especially famous for their brewing, the French are always up
to something.  I work for a French company and we get the newsletter from
the French embassy, "News From France".  I quote with abandon (and without
permission!):

	The "Group of Seven" Alsacian breweries, ranging from Kronenbourg
	to Schutzenberger, recently met in Strasbourg to discuss this
	year's innovations in the beer market designed to entice consumers.
	Among products to enter the market this year are a rum-flavored
	beer, a beer for cats and dogs, and a Christmas beer.


FWIW!

 -Chris Estes-

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Date: Mon, 3 Jan 94 13:24:31 MST
From: "Mark B. Alston" <c-amb at math.utah.edu>
Subject: Re: Specific Gravity readings

Rob, 
	If you took the reading after letting the wort cool in the
fermenter then you will have a gradient between the top and bottom.
Thus, if you took a reading off of the top of the wort the gravity
will appear lower than the actual gravity.  I would suggest taking the
gravity measurement just after aerating the wort for the yeast.  At
this point it is mixed up into a uniform density.

Good luck,
Mark.

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Date: 3 Jan 94 15:20:31-0500
From: JOHN.L.HALE at sprint.sprint.com
Subject: Use of Wort Chillers


After following the subject on the HBD over the past year and asking a few 
questions, I recently built my first wort chiller and am very pleased with the 
results. (A note to other chiller novices: build one, it's very easy).  Now I 
have a couple of questions concerning the proper use of this beast.

The details:

Immersion type; 2 coils, 3/8" tubing, 15 ft in ice chest, 35 ft in brewpot

Recipe: IPA, 9 lbs of DME, 1 lb crystal, Wyeast British Ale, no starter (short 
on time), leaf hops in bags.

I've never used a chiller before so I didn't know what to expect. It got the 
boiling wort down under 70 degrees in about 15 min. I then siphoned the wort 
into a 7 gal carboy and pitched yeast.  I didn't observe the cold break (in 
the pot, that is) that I've heard so much about.  However, about two hours 
after I pitched the yeast I had about two inches of "stuff" on the bottom of 
the carboy. 

I went back and reread one of my Dave Miller book (can't remember which) and 
he seemed to be saying that one should let the wort settle in the brewpot 
after chilling prior to racking to primary.  Am I reading this right?  

I'm curious about the procedures that other people use concerning wort 
chillers. At what point do you see the cold break and can you effectively rack 
the wort off the break and leave it behind?


Thanks for any info. Reply in HBD or e-mail.
 
   
Thanks,
John Hale
(john.l.hale at sprint.sprint.com)


 


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Date: Mon, 3 Jan 94 13:26:57 MST
From: "Mark B. Alston" <c-amb at math.utah.edu>
Subject: Re: Shipping brew, Brewing Wine coolers

Tim,
	Why don't you try brewing a framboise or a similar fruity ale.
Your girlfriend would probably appreciate a rasberry wheat bear or
perhaps a peach ale.

	Mark (whose girlfriend can't get enough stout) Alston.


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Date:         Mon, 03 Jan 94 14:41:32 CST
From: jim pockstaller <HFIN012 at UABDPO.DPO.UAB.EDU>
Subject:      miller stout

I tried Miller's stout this weekend.  I am no beer judge but i was not
impressed.  To say it was a bit thin would be an understatement, in my opinion.
I don't know about stacking up to Guiness analytically, whatever that means,
but it sure did not stack up taste wise.

jim pockstaller

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Date: Mon, 3 Jan 94 15:03 CST
From: korz at iepubj.att.com
Subject: ScortchCleanup/CommercialFGs/LagerStarters/lowOG

Steve writes:
 due to other demands on my time ;newborns do that) .  Also what is the 
 best method for removing that burnt material from the bottom of the pot
 TSP and a Scotch BRITE pad worked but with a lot of scrubbing.

I recently used a 3" spackling (sp?) knife.  One swipe and the scortched malt
came right off.  Then I finished off with a pot scrubber.  Total time: 1 min.

**********
Jeff writes:
>balance problems just like a beer that finished too high.  Does anyone
>out there have a list of *finishing* gravities for commercial brews?

Sure.  See Fred Eckhardt's "Essentials of Beer Style."  I read my copy
while formulating virtually every batch.

**********
ELTEE writes:
>What temperatures should starters for lagers be done, at ale or lager temps?
>Also, is it a problem to use a much bigger bottle, such as a 1 gallon for a
>1 quart starter?

I believe that starters for both ales and lagers should be fermented at
70-75F.  From there you have two choices: 1. the traditional German method
or 2. the shortcut method.

1. SLOWLY cool starter (a couple of degrees per hour) to the temperature
of you primary ferment (oh, say, 50F) and quickly cool your wort to the
same temperature.  Pitch a LOT of yeast into a well-aerated wort.  Ferment.

2. Pitch a big starter at 70F into 70F well-aerated, wort.  Wait till
fermentation begins, then SLOWLY cool to 50F and finish ferment there.

Pros & cons: The traditional German method will give you less esters and
a more accurate representation of a lager, but is tougher and you had
better be prepared for some longer lag times.  The shortcut method is
just the opposite... quicker start, but more esters -- inappropriate for
lagers.

Depending on the yeast, you can get very good results with method 2, but
I used method 2 once on a 1074 bock, pitching at 65F, then going to a 57F
crawlspace for 24 hours till fermentation began.  Primary at 50F, secondary
at 45F with Wyeast Munich Lager (#2308).  Judges said that it was a bit
too fruity.  So there you have by datapoint.

********
Rob writes:
>finished preparing the wort and was ready to add the yeast I took a
>hydrometer reading and it was 1.022. Although I am a neophyte at this sort of
>thing, I do know that the reading should have been much higher 

Unless you used very little extract, the problem was probably that you poured
hot wort into cold water and then took the reading.  What happens is that the
hot, heavy wort sinks to the bottom of the fermenter and you need to mix
quite well before taking a reading.  Don't worry, the beer will turn out
just fine if this was the problem.  If indeed you used only 2.5 pounds of
extract in a 5 gallon batch, then your problem was that you did not use
enough extract, but you can rescue the batch by adding more!  Boil up some
more extract, cool it down in the sink (so you don't kill the yeast) and
then add it to the fermenting batch.

Al.

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Date: Mon, 03 Jan 1994 08:49:42 +0000 (U)
From: George Tempel <tempel at MONMOUTH-ETDL1.ARMY.MIL>
Subject: None

                      None
in HBD #1314:

>In the fine tradition of... "Relax. Don't Worry. Have a HomeBrew!" I am
>trying to do just that. I have just tried my first batch of HomeBrew. After I
>finished preparing the wort and was ready to add the yeast I took a
>hydrometer reading and it was 1.022. Although I am a neophyte at this sort of
>thing, I do know that the reading should have been much higher (about
>1.038-1.045). The wort was at 65F so the temperature should not have affected
>the reading. I took the reading in the fermenter tank (one of those white
>plastic pails), could this be the problem. Any suggestions.
>
> -Rob (trying to relax, waiting for a homebrew) Emenecker
> mail: RobEmnckr at aol.com
> voice: 215-239-9108


Relax Rob. Really. I have 3 batches under my belt, and am starting a fourth,
so I know from whence you come.

You are correct in thinking that 1.022 is a low gravity (starting). Questions
to ask yourself are:

1: if you did a partial boil (like most extract stuff) of 2 gallons or so, then
mixed with cooler water in a fermenter, did you stir things up nicely? You
might have an inversion layer going on there, with warm/cold layers in
the fermenter.

2: Perhaps you added too much water to the fermenter and are WAY over
5 gallons? With a 6.7 gallon pail this can be easy to do because it never
really looks like enough liquid in the bucket.

3: What was the initial gravity _supposed_ to be, according to your
recipe or kit? You just might not be that far off if it is an American
commercial style beer (coors or something).

4: In the future, take a _sample_ of your liquids, place into the tube
that your hydrometer came in, and measure in there, NOT in the
fermenter. I take the sample with a sanitized _glass_ baster
(available from some homebrew stores and various kitchen
gadget places...glass is very easy to sanitize, while the plastic
is a problem and the metal ones can rust) and release the contents
into my hydrometer "sleeve" with the hydrometer already in it,
this way I know when I have enough (the hydrometer floats up off
of the bottom). By measuring IN the fermenter you could potentially
infect the wort (but you sanitized, of course, right...), and if you have
a thermal layer going on, you could be measuring a "concentrated"
section of wort.

My 6.7 gal plastic bucket/lid combo serves as a bottling tank in that
it has a nice spigot near the bottom. During primary fermentation I
will just place the hydrometer tube under the spigot and let some
wort/beer into the tube. No fuss, no muss.

Relax, and plan your next homebrew!

george



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Date: Mon, 3 Jan 1994 13:22:22 -0800 (PST)
From: gummitch at teleport.com (Jeff Frane)
Subject: Ovens Yet Again

Doubters!!

At any rate, various questions arose about my practice of sanitizing
bottles in the oven.  Questions of temperature, breakage and those
little foil caps:

The temerature I cited (350F) for 90 minutes, may well be overkill; I've
suspected as much.  But given that Dave Logsdon (of WYeast) gave me the
numbers, and given that it isn't any more effort to do it at 350 than at
250, and given that I'm not motivated to do any research on it,  I've
stuck with those figures.  As long as it works, I say...

Ovens, by the way, warm up slowly by their very nature.  I see no reason
to artificially creep the temperature upward.  It's possible that some
of you have ovens so effective that they reach 350F in a matter of
minutes, but hey...

Someone reported breakage from bottles that had been heated.  I don't
know how to respond to that, since I wasn't there and have no reason to
doubt anyone's word on it.  All I can respond is that I have bottled
literally hundreds (thousands?) of the little glass bombshells and have
never lost a single one.  As someone else pointed out about taking
bottles out of the dishwasher, temperature at filling is relevant -- I
never filled a hot bottle either, perhaps this is the point of stress.

Alan Carlson, from Sweden, mentions also using little foil caps on his
bottles (someone else wanted to know why) to keep the bottles sanitized
once they've come out of the oven.  Yup.  And to answer Alan's question,
yup again: they stay nicely sanitized for quite a while after the fact.
I regularly use them days -- or even a week or more -- after they come
out of the oven; that's the whole point.  Once they've been in the oven
and are kept closed by the foil, I'm mystified at how the bottles might
suddenly become *un* sanitized.  This doesn't mean I've ever had the
nerve to use the bottles a couple of months later -- why take chances
with fate?

- --Jeff


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Date: Monday,  3 January 94 14:40:31 CST
From: LLAPV at utxdp.dp.utexas.edu
Subject: threads

Howdy,

I'm just picking up on some threads from the last 8 HBDs (I was on vacation).

In HBD 1306, Mike Yee was comparing Hoegaarden White & Celis White.  He wonders
about the water differences.  I do know that one reason they picked Austin to
brew Celis was because of the similarities of the water.  There's a lot of
limestone around here, & Pierre Celis liked the mineral content.  I do know
that they are different beers.  It's my understanding that after Celis sold
Hoegaarden, Interbrew did change the product some.  Plus, why would he want
to stick with the same thing?  He is a pretty innovative guy.

Regarding ads.  Some of the big guys are bashing each other & the little guys
in advertising, but I did see something hilarious the other day.  I think it
was an old ad, because there was a thick layer of dust on it at the store
where I saw it.  It showed a bottle of Sam Adams Boston Lager & a bottle of
Young's London Ale.  The copy went on to note that Mr. Adams, living in
colonial Boston, probably enjoyed the beverage of choice, ale.  It also points
out that the ales were much like London Ale.  It then says that if you want
a good lager, drink SABL, but if you want to drink what Sammy drank, drink
Young's London Ale.

Regarding dishwashers:  I've had no problem using mine for cleaning my bottles,
& I pretty much use the method everyone has been describing.  But, to each his/
her own.

Regarding Holiday Cheer:  I've brewed this Papazian recipe twice now (or at
least something strongly based on it) & have been _very_ happy with it.  The
ginger does mellow out, which, to me, is a shame.  Try it with nutmeg added.

Happy brewing,

Alan of Austin

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End of HOMEBREW Digest #1315, 01/04/94