FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Rob Gardner, Digest Coordinator


Contents:
  Re: Keg Prices (Jim Grady)
  "Christmas in Ireland" at 2 years (smtplink!guym)
  Sierra Nevada Nirvana (Summary) (mclagan)
  Miller Stout, Grant's Cider ("George R. Flentke")
  Counterflow chiller data point ("Dave Suurballe")
  Better False Bottoms (Louis K. Bonham)
  Braukunst Number (Dion Hollenbeck)
  big brewing (Spencer.W.Thomas)
  Information ("Micah A. Singer")
  Water adjustments (Spencer.W.Thomas)
  French beer; Miller Stout (Allan Janus)
  Sam Smith's Oatmeal Stout (M.VITA)
  Using Flour/Grain Source (Jim Grady)
  low og, Easymasher (btalk)
  Belgian Ale Yeasts, Honey, UPS (jimsnow)
  Thermoelectric devices, spring balances (Dennis J. Templeton)
  15.5 Gallon Kegs, Aluminum or Stainless Steel? (Philip J Difalco)
  Re: Ovens Yet Again (Chip Hitchcock)
  Homebrew Tasting ("The road of excess leads to the palace of wisdom.")
  homebrew mailing list (Bill Sutton)
  screwtops? (Tony) Abbott" <TABBOTT at UGA.CC.UGA.EDU>
  Oxidation (George J Fix)
  Wine cooler substitute (smtplink!guym)
  Re: Sam Adams taste-alike (Brian J Walter (Brewing Chemist))
  Response to various questions in HBD 1310 & 1311 (Marc L. Goldfarb)
  Water Analysis (npyle)
  Samuel Smith ("Pete Brauer 312/915-6157"                 )
  HSA (korz)
  Using Lager Yeasts at Ale Temps (Tim P McNerney)
  Thermoelectric gizmos (Cree-ee-py Boy)
  heat sterilizing/foil caps (The Rider) (Michael Fetzer)
  slow ale fermentation (Ken Michael Johnson)


Send articles for __publication_only__ to homebrew at hpfcmi.fc.hp.com
  (Articles are published in the order they are received.)
Send UNSUBSCRIBE and all other requests, ie, address change, etc.,
  to homebrew-request@ hpfcmi.fc.hp.com, BUT PLEASE NOTE that if
  you subscribed via the BITNET listserver (BEER-L at UA1VM.UA.EDU),
  then you MUST unsubscribe the same way! 
If your account is being deleted, please be courteous and unsubscribe first.
Archives are available via anonymous ftp from sierra.stanford.edu.
  (Those without ftp access may retrieve files via mail from
  listserv at sierra.stanford.edu. Send HELP as the body of a
  message to that address to receive listserver instructions.)
Please don't send me requests for back issues - you will be silently ignored.
For "Cat's Meow" information, send mail to lutzen at novell.physics.umr.edu



----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 3 Jan 94 16:40:49 EST
From: Jim Grady <grady at hpangrt.an.hp.com>
Subject: Re: Keg Prices

In HBD #1306, Norm Pyle says:

> Recent HBD reports indicate that the used 1/2 barrel straight-sided
> sankey kegs from BCI cost $43.50.  This is in error (I just received a
> price sheet).  The actual cost is $61.50.  The barrel shaped sankey's
> in that size are indeed $43.50.  Is it worth it to pay more for the
> straight sides if you are going to use these things as tuns and tanks?
> Is it that much more trouble to install fitting on the barrel shaped
> kegs?  FYI, sankey is the style of tap on the keg. BTW, I thought I
> might buy the sankey valve removal tool and possibly avoid having to
> cut a keg.  They want $225 for it!  Yikes!  I'll find another way... 

I called BCI on 12/14 and got quite a different story over the phone.
They said new Sankey kegs are $99.50 (or so).  I asked about a used one
and they said that they didn't have any, only the kind with the round
sides and the bung hole on the side & they were $42.50.  When I said I
only wanted 1, he asked if I was going to use it as a brewkettle.  I
said yes and he said that they sell a "Brewkettle" which is the 15.5
gal, straight-sided keg with the top cut off.  He said it is stainless
steel and still has the handles & they sell a lot to homebrewers.  The
price is $42.50 (+ shipping, naturally).  Well, that was a no brainer
for me!  I sent off a check and just got it the other day. (They don't
take MC or Visa).  It took 15 days to get from TN to MA (with Christmas
in the middle).

The keg seems to be quite reasonable.  There were a few sharp parts
where they sawed the top off - probably a lot fewer than I would have
left and I didn't have the do the work!  I could easily take the
sharpness off with a hammer (ear protection recommended).

Overall, I am quite satisfied.  That address once again (thanks Dion!):

> BCI can be contacted at 
> 
> Bev-Con International
> 6400 HIghway 51 South
> Post Office Box 396
> Brighton, TN.  38011
> (901)476-8000
> (800)284-9410
 

- --
Jim Grady       |"Immediately after Orville Wright's historic 12 second
grady at an.hp.com | flight, his luggage could not be located."
                |                       S. Harris

Return to table of contents


Date: Mon, 03 Jan 94 16:32:30 MDT
From: exabyte!smtplink!guym at uunet.UU.NET
Subject: "Christmas in Ireland" at 2 years


  I had the pleasure over Christmas to taste a 2-year-old Christmas Stout.
  It was brewed in September of 1991.  The funny thing is that it was my
  beer but I had given some to my good friend Jeff Herring or it would never
  have lasted 2 years.  We drank some of it last year and old Jeff even 
  managed to save two bottles until this year.  The recipe was called
  "Christmas in Ireland" and I posted it in HBD #727 on 9/19/91.  It is
  also in "The Cat's Meow 2" on page 5-20.  I used 4 ounces of grated ginger
  and a myriad of other spices and ginger was evident (but not unpleasant)
  on Christmas of '91.  The bottles we drank this year were remarkably 
  smooth and clean-tasting.  There was a delightful spicyness along with the
  characteristic stout bite, but no overpowering single spice.  Age has 
  blended the flavors nicely.  The batch I brewed for Christmas '93 is yet
  another stout with maple syrup and cinnamon this time.  It is very nearly
  in the barleywine range with an OG of 1.087.  It was thick and somewhat
  sweet, with the maple flavor coming through in the aftertaste, and I put 
  a dozen pints of it aside for next year.  I'm convinced that spiced beers,
  especially the heavy holiday variety that I brew, benefit greatly from a
  bit of aging as long as your sanitation is good and you use good, clean
  liquid yeast.  I doubt another one of mine will make it to 2 years of age
  though since I now live in Orlando and Jeff still lives in Huntsville,
  AL!
  
  Guy McConnell -- guym at exabyte.com
  "And the beer I had for breakfast wasn't bad, so I had one for dessert."

Return to table of contents


Date: Mon, 3 Jan 1994 17:00:30 -0800 (PST)
From: mclagan at sfu.ca
Subject: Sierra Nevada Nirvana (Summary)

Greetings Brewers:

As promised, I've consolidated the recipes and ideas sent to me 
regarding the cloning of Sierra Nevada Pale Ale. Sorry for the 
delay, I have recently experienced that most dreaded of computer 
ills: hard disk failure. After two days of painstaking and fretful 
work I managed to scrape most of my data from the drive, including 
the SNPA stuff just before the machine's last gasp. Hoo boy, that 
was close. I've learned a lesson.

The file is about 39K in size. Just send me a note if you'd like
a copy.

Yours,

Scott McLagan (mclagan at fraser.sfu.ca)
Co-ordinator for Computers
School District 43 (Coquitlam)
B. C., Canada



Return to table of contents


Date: Mon, 3 Jan 94 20:00:24 CST
From: "George R. Flentke" <GRFLENTK at vms2.macc.wisc.edu>
Subject: Miller Stout, Grant's Cider

Well if we go for the rumer mill, I too have heard that Miller is producing
a stout under the reserve label.  I got this when I was visiting the folks
in Rochester, and drinking at the Rochester BrewPub.
    They also said that the Feds had come down hard on the makers of Grant's
Cider.  They declared that cider is a wine, and Grant's did not have the
right permits!  I know that Grant's also got in trouble for putting some
statement of nutritional value on their products.
    So much for the rumer mongers.
  Ciao,
George R. Flentke
School of Pharmacy
University of Wisconsin-Madison
GRFLENTK at macc.wisc.edu

Return to table of contents


Date: 3 Jan 1994 19:08:31 -0800
From: "Dave Suurballe" <suurb at farallon.com>
Subject: Counterflow chiller data point

I brewed yesterday for the first time since the most recent outbreak of
counterflow vs immersion controversy, and I thought I would add fuel to the
fire by sharing yet another data point.

I chilled 10 gallons (39 liters, actually) of 1040 wort from boiling down to 65
degrees in 16 minutes.  The cooling water entered the apparatus at 55.5 degrees
and exited at 101 degrees. I used 34 gallons of water.

It's a counterflow chiller with 3/8 copper inside of 40 feet of garden hose.

My intuition says that the product of the volume of chilled wort and its
temperature change should equal the product of the volume of coolant and its
temperature change, but that is not the case here.  I don't know why.

Suurballe

Return to table of contents


Date: Mon, 03 Jan 1994 21:48:06
From: lkbonham at beerlaw.win.net (Louis K. Bonham)
Subject: Better False Bottoms

On the advice of several fellow homebrewers, I recently 
modified my RIMS setup to replace the SS screen false 
bottom in the mash/lauter tun with one made from perforated
stainless steel.  *Major* improvement, IMHO.  Practically
indestructible, easily cleaned, and impossible to collapse in a 30
lb. (or for that matter, 300 lb.) mash.  While I use a
converted-keg RIMS (BrewMagic), there's no reason why a perforated
stainless false bottom wouldn't work just as well in a cooler or
ice chest mash tun. 

The friend (and fellow homebrewer) who fabricated this for me
is a professional with access to industrial class equipment and
supplies, and has indicated that he'd be interested in doing more of
these if there's any significant interest.  For my converted-keg
mash tun, the sheet is a 15 3/8" round of 1/8" stainless with 3/32"
perforations, cut in half and spot-welded to 15" of continuous 3/4"
stainless steel hinge.  It can thus be folded in half, slipped into
the keg, and unfolded so that it's own weight holds it open. He says
it is very easy to make them in just about any size or shape,
particularly for coolers or ice chests which would not require the
hinge. 

What sayeth you?  Anyone interested?  What sizes are you looking
for (and what prices would be fair)? 

DISCLAIMER: I have no pecuniary interest in this matter; just
passing on some info.


Return to table of contents


Date: Mon, 3 Jan 94 20:07:52 PST
From: hollen at megatek.com (Dion Hollenbeck)
Subject: Braukunst Number

Tried sending this to a HBDer in Canada, but it bounced.  Please
excuse this unless you are ag148 at freenet.carlton.ca.

The information on how to contact Braukunst is as follows:

Cliff Tanner
Braukunst 
55 Lakeview Drive
Carlton, Mn.   55718-9220

(218)384-9844

Generally not home in the daytime since he has a day job.

dion

Dion Hollenbeck (619)455-5590x2814     Email: hollen at megatek.com
Staff Software Engineer                       megatek!hollen at uunet.uu.net
Megatek Corporation, San Diego, California    ucsd!megatek!hollen


Return to table of contents


Date: Mon, 3 Jan 94 23:48:25 EST
From: Spencer.W.Thomas at med.umich.edu
Subject: big brewing

A friend wanted to "check out" a bunch of yeasts from his yeast bank
for flavor profile, etc.  He decided to do a "yeastola" (modeled, sort
of, on our club's annual "brewola", where everyone brews the same
recipe).  But how to distinguish yeast character from differences in
brewing style?  Make one big batch of wort, of course!  So, last week,
a half-dozen of us fired up a prototype 55-gallon brewery.  Wow!
Built of custom-fabricated 55 gallon drums, and "fired" with a steam
boiler, this is one nice system.

The recipe was (for 50 gallons):
55 lbs Hugh Baird pale malt
20 lbs Munich (Breiss(sp?), I think)
5 lbs 40L crystal
1 lb carapils
1 lb Kent Goldings (5.5%)

No finishing hops, so yeast aromatics won't get hidden.  Grains
crushed in a motorized MaltMill(tm) at about 10 sec/lb.

Extraction rate wasn't so hot, we ended up at 1.042, about 26pt-gal/lb
(partly because the prototype has only two kettles, so we had to batch
sparge, since the hot liquor tank is also the boiling kettle).

We filled 10 5 gallon carboys with beer, and pitched a different (ale)
yeast into each.  One is happily bubbling in my basement.  The next
fun comes in a month or so when we get together to taste them all!

Digression:
    If I could afford it, I'd convert my brewery to steam heat, you better
    believe it.  It's clean, quiet, and powerful.  You need some major
    fire-power to boil 50 gallons of wort, and this system had it.  I
    think the boiler was designed to heat a house or something.  With the
    steam valve, leading to the coil in the boiling kettle, about half
    open, we got a vigorous rolling boil. Full on, half the wort probably
    would have jumped out of the kettle.  A twist of the valve to the off
    position immediately stopped the action.  And we're not talking high
    pressure steam here, but only 3-5PSI.  Ah, well, dreaming...

In a few months, we're planning to do it again, but with a Wit beer
recipe and 6-10 different "white" yeasts.


=Spencer W. Thomas 		|  Info Tech and Networking, B1911 CFOB, 0704
   "Genome Informatician"	|  Univ of Michigan, Ann Arbor, MI 48109
Spencer.W.Thomas at med.umich.edu	|  313-764-8065, FAX 313-764-4133

Return to table of contents


Date: Mon, 03 Jan 1994 23:57:07 -0500
From: "Micah A. Singer" <Micah.A.Singer at williams.edu>
Subject: Information

I am interested in finding out more about the bulletin board and
sining up if possible.  I am relatively new to homebrewing-4 months.
Thank you,

Micah Singer

Return to table of contents


Date: Mon, 3 Jan 94 23:58:14 EST
From: Spencer.W.Thomas at med.umich.edu
Subject: Water adjustments

Ed Oriordan writes:
 >    Gypsum is more soluable in cold water than hot (mix it with cold).
Well, yes, but...  (Pause to haul out the old "rubber bible")...

Cold water: 		0.241g/100ml	= 46g/5gal = 1.6oz/5gal
Hot water (100C):	0.222g/100ml	= 42g/5gal = 1.5oz/5gal

About a 10% difference.  I wonder about the difference of "rate of
solution" between hot and cold water.  I'd expect it dissolve fater in
hot water, if you're not near the limit of solubility.  But I haven't
done the experiment.

=S

Return to table of contents


Date:         Tue, 4 Jan 94  07:56:40 EST
From: Allan Janus <NASARC07 at SIVM.SI.EDU>
Subject:      French beer; Miller Stout


In response to Chris Estes' breaking news from the French brewing scene:
Chris, do any of your French contacts bring in Pelforth Brune?  I'd love to get
a hold of some!  Contact me if you know any hot DC sources.
On the claim of the Gentleman from Miller's that Miller Stout holds up to
Guinness "analytically" - sorry, my spectrometer doesn't drink beer...

Allan Janus
NASARC07 at SIVM.BITNET


Return to table of contents


Date: 04 Jan 94 08:28:24 EST
From: M.VITA at sysb.ftc.gov
Subject: Sam Smith's Oatmeal Stout

 > Paul Hethmon recently asked if Sam Smith's Oatmeal Stout
> worth its price of $17/ 6 pack.

As to your question whether Sam Smith's Oatmeal Stout
is worth $17/6 pack, my answer is no.  Though it's an
outstanding beer, I don't believe it's superior to domestic
beers such as Grant's Imperial Stout or Sierra Nevada Stout,
which are about half as expensive and usually much fresher.

In my view, British beers are not worth  the price, given
the variety of fresher, cheaper, and equal or better quality
American microbrews.  This should not be taken as a prejudice
against British beers - my wife is from Yorkshire, and we travel
there annually, which gives me the chance to drink beers such
as Sam Smith's Stout, Theakston's Old Peculier, Tetley Bitter,
as well as many others,  in
their cask-conditioned version.  Once you've had that stuff from
a hand-pulled cask, the bottled imported versions are very
disappointing.

Mike Vita


Return to table of contents


Date: Tue, 4 Jan 94 8:28:59 EST
From: Jim Grady <grady at hpangrt.an.hp.com>
Subject: Using Flour/Grain Source

Joel Birkeland asks:

> mashing corn meal:
> 
> I have seen flaked corn used as an adjunct.  I would like to know if I could
> substitute corn meal.  For that matter, could regular wheat flour be used
> as an adjunct?

    Pierre Rajotte specifies using flour in the mash of two of the
    recipes in his book, "Belgian Ale."  He comments:

      "Two recipes, Oud Bruin and Silk Lady, call for using
      flour.  This is the easiest way to recreate recipes
      that use raw grains.  Milling and obtaining wheat or
      oats can be problematic.  For these recipes, try to
      obtain in both cases whole wheat or oat flour.  You
      can usually obtain them in a health food store.  The
      only problem you may have with them is that they may
      clump if you dump them directly in the mash.
      Instead, just sift them over the mash slowly and mix
      evenly.
                                        pg 111

    I have not tried this myself - I just got the book this Christmas!
> 
> grain source:
> 
> Does anyone know where I can get big sacks of quality 2-row malted
> barley mail order?

    I have bought grain from Tim Norris in Chicago.  His prices (this
    fall at least) were $32.50/50# of DeWolf-Cosyns Pale Ale or Pilsner
    malt and $20.00/50# of Schreier U.S. 2-row malt.  Even when shipping
    to Massachusetts was added, it was still a good deal.  He sells in
    other quantities as well and carries the full line of DeWolf-Cosyns
    malts.  His address & phone number are (thanks to Tony Babinec):


HOMEBREW Digest #968                         Mon 14 September 1992

 - Tim Norris, Chicago, IL 312-545-4004--Tim runs a basement
homebrew shop.  He suggests that homebrew clubs get a collective
order together, but is willing to ship small orders.  Tim also
has a fax number:  312-545-0770.

Address:  3717 N. Kenneth, Chicago, IL.


Usual disclaimers apply; just a satisfied customer.
- --
Jim Grady       |"Immediately after Orville Wright's historic 12 second
grady at an.hp.com | flight, his luggage could not be located."
                |                       S. Harris

Return to table of contents


Date: Tue, 04 Jan 94 09:58:34 EST
From: btalk at aol.com
Subject: low og, Easymasher

Re: low starting gravity.
 My first 2 or 3 batches came puzzlingly low, then I realized that 5 gal
recipes were being made into 6.5 gal!!! I assumed my plastic pail/primary was
5 gal when filled near the top(it wasn't) and that my carboy was 5 gal (it
was 6.5 gal when I finally read what was on the bottom). Sometimes it DOES
help to pay attention ;-)
 My question - I've never seen one , so what is/how does an Easymasher work??
Bob Talkiewicz, Binghamton, NY

Return to table of contents


Date: Tue, 04 Jan 94 10:15:20 EST
From: jimsnow at aol.com
Subject: Belgian Ale Yeasts, Honey, UPS

I recently brewed my second batch of a Belgian Ale three days ago using an
adapted version of Gouden Charlie that appears in the Belgian Ale classic
beer style book and used a yeast culture from Chimay Capsule Rouge for
fermentation.  My first Belgian Ale I used Chimay yeast also and now am
wondering what other Belgian Ale yeasts others have used and what
successes/failures have you encountered?  Thanks in advance.
Michael Jorgenson asked the question about priming with honey.  Although I
have never tried it myself, I am considering using honey to prime my batch of
mead that has been in the secondary for some months now.  It makes more sense
to me to prime mead with honey rather than corn sugar.  Charlie Papazian
mentions in his book that 1/2 c of honey can be substituted for 3/4 c corn
sugar for priming.  I would be interested in hearing from others also on this
question.
Tim Gray asks about shipping bottles via UPS.  I have done so on a few
occasions.  I pack the bottles well with bubble pack in a sturdy box, send it
2nd day air and lie and tell them it is kitchen supplies.  Maybe not a
complete lie because homebrew is a necessary supply for the refrigerator in
our kitchen.
Happy Brewing, Jim Snow

Return to table of contents


Date: Tue, 4 Jan 94 10:18:52 -0500
From: djt2 at po.cwru.edu (Dennis J. Templeton)
Subject: Thermoelectric devices, spring balances

I provided the number for American Science Surplus the other day, and today
I see someone asking for thermoelectric devices to cool a fridge. I believe
he is referring to Peltier diodes, and in fact Am Sci Surp has them:
#22627 (1.17" square) $25 and
#89143  (1.56"square) $35

I cant testify that these are useful for making a fridge, and the catalog
doesn't list power output in any form. 

Am Sci Surp: (Skokie-Chicago) (708)982-0870 or fax (800)934-0772

they also list an Ohous spring scale with a 9 oz capacity.

#23282 Spring scale $3.75. It looks identical to mine, that I got for $10 I
think from a HB supplier.

have fun,
dennis



Return to table of contents


Date: Tue, 4 Jan 94 10:24:40 -0500
From: Philip J Difalco <sxupjd at fnma.COM>
Subject: 15.5 Gallon Kegs, Aluminum or Stainless Steel?


I'd like to convert one of those standard 1/2 kegs to a boiling pot.
Are the standard 15.5 gallon Firestone kegs Stainless Steel or Aluminum?

Return to table of contents


Date: Tue, 4 Jan 94 10:44:19 EST
From: cjh at diaspar.HQ.ileaf.com (Chip Hitchcock)
Subject: Re: Ovens Yet Again

Jeff Frane says:

>					Once they've been in the oven
> and are kept closed by the foil, I'm mystified at how the bottles might
> suddenly become *un* sanitized.

Foil caps certainly aren't airtight (if they were the foil would blow
open), and 350F is ~450K (~300K is room temperature), so when the bottles
are cool (per gas laws) they will hold 50% more air than when they were in
the oven. Yeast and yeastoids are \everywhere/ (that's why the Romance
languages use same ("alma") or similar words for "yeast" and "ghost"), so
you could easily suck in some airborne sugar-eaters. It doesn't look like
this is happening (given your lack of infections) but it's certainly
possible.

Return to table of contents


Date: Tue, 4 Jan 1994 11:08:39 GMT
From: "The road of excess leads to the palace of wisdom." <HAPANOWICZ at xray.alfred.edu>
Subject: Homebrew Tasting 


I heard this info on the radio:

Homebrew tasting, Uniondale Marriott, Friday Jan 14 7-10pm  (516) 368-0406 

Call the number for more info and directions.

Rick Hapanowicz  hapanowicz at xray.alfred.edu


Return to table of contents


Date: Tue, 4 Jan 94 11:47:42 EST
From: Bill Sutton <wrs at hpuerca.atl.hp.com>
Subject: homebrew mailing list

please add me

(if manual): wrs at hpuerca.atl.hp.com

Return to table of contents


Date:         Tue, 04 Jan 94 11:35:58 EST
From: "James (Tony) Abbott" <TABBOTT at UGA.CC.UGA.EDU>
Subject:      screwtops?

I may well take the naive question of the week award with this one, but
I've never heard an explanation to my satisfaction which addresses the
topic.  Why exactly isn't it possible to use screw top bottles (not beer
bottle, I know they are troublesome), pop bottles, apple juice bottles etc.
Do they for some reason fail to hold pressure?  Screw top Cokes seem to have
the capability.

Don't get me wrong, there is nothing like the aesthetic of opening a flip-top
or crown cap before enjoying a fine bitter or stout.  However, It would be
nice to be able to bottle up a gallon in a single container to carry along
to small gatherings of interested friends.  thanx, any replies welcome!

>From the single eyed technology box of:

James (Tony) Abbott <TABBOTT at UGA.CC.UGA.EDU>
Department of Geography, Univ. of Georgia
Athens, Ga. 30602
(706)542-2338


Return to table of contents


Date: Tue, 4 Jan 94 11:09:03 -0600
From: gjfix at utamat.uta.edu (George J Fix)
Subject: Oxidation

There are several mechanisms that can lead to oxidized flavors in beer.
IMHO the most important of these are the following:

         1. HSA
         2. Headspace air in bottles and kegs
         3. O2 pickup during processing

In each of these cases the finished beer tends to lose its rounded
character, and take on harsh/astringent tones. The overall flavor 
sensations, however, can be quite different in each case. E.g., in
HSA of unhopped wort it is grain constituents (melanoidans, phenols, et al)
which are involved, and these (in their oxidized states) in turn oxidize
alcohols in the fermented beer. This gives rise to various aldehydes which
have an unmistakable grain astringent tones that Germans call herbstoffe.

Cheesy/goaty tones are usually signs of oxidized hop constituents. This
can occur by any of the three mechanisms cited above. It has been my
experience that the most likely situation as far as hop constituents are
concerned is for the attractive and mellow component of hop flavor (taste
and smell) to simply disappear leaving a clinging hop bitter.

It is my belief that the paper/cardboard flavors cited by Steve Smith in 
HBD#1315 arise exclusively from direct oxidation of alcohols from either
headspace air or O2 pickup in fermented beer processing. The most relevant
aldehyde is trans-2-nonenal, and it is quite different (structurally and in
flavoring) from the aldehydes formed in the indirect oxidation associated 
with HSA.

One question raised in Steve's post is to what extend oxidized constituents
arise in malt extracts as they age. That Maillard reactions (browning) are
taking place is clear from the color changes in malt syrups as they age.
The implications of this for finished beer flavors are unknown to me. In lieu
of a systematic study, possibly the best advice is to get the freshest extract
available. I would like to see all malt products -- including grains -- dated
so that we as brewers know exactly what we are dealing with. Dave Logsdon
(Wyeast) got the ball rolling by dating his yeast packets, and it now
common to have hop vintages listed on packages. Alas only malt products
remain, yet freshness is just important for these as the other brewing
materials.

George Fix



Return to table of contents


Date: Tue, 04 Jan 94 09:53:26 MDT
From: exabyte!smtplink!guym at uunet.UU.NET
Subject: Wine cooler substitute


  On the subject of brewing wine coolers, here's a suggestion.  Why not 
  brew a light melomel instead?  I brewed a blueberry one based on Barkshack
  Gingermead and primed it to make a sparkling beverage.  When people tried
  it who had never tasted mead, I told them that it was a little like a wine
  cooler in that it was effervescent and somewhat fruity.  The comment from
  *every* one of these people was "Comparing this to a wine cooler is an
  insult - it is far better than any wine cooler I've tasted."  The nice
  thing about it was that it was very good within 3 - 6 months instead of the
  year or more cited for most "true" meads.  It only uses 7 pounds of honey
  for 5 gallons which, I suspect, is the reason for the quicker maturity.
  I'd be glad to provide (or post) the recipe if there is any interest.
  
  Guy McConnell -- guym at exabyte.com -- "All I need is a pint a day..."

Return to table of contents


Date: Tue, 4 Jan 1994 11:00:05 -0700 (MST)
From: walter at lamar.ColoState.EDU (Brian J Walter (Brewing Chemist))
Subject: Re: Sam Adams taste-alike

Howdy!

Now, we all know that the only way to make a Sam(tm) Adam(tm) taste-a-like
is to use the finest malt and hops.  I guess this means that you will need 
to take a trip to Germany to hand pick the finest hops.  If not you are just
out of luck.  Just ask Jim(tm) Koch(tm). ;^>

Good Day,

Brian

Return to table of contents


Date: Tue, 4 Jan 94 14:29:03 -0500
From: dd596 at cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Marc L. Goldfarb)
Subject: Response to various questions in HBD 1310 & 1311



Hi everybody, and Happy New Year from the new kid on the block.

 I just finished reading my first few HBD's and thought I might 

respond to several questions.

 

1. Re: Bottles - I now keg my beer, but before that I found that 

1 liter plastic soda bottles work real well. I don't recall having a 

problem with oxygen permeating them, but then my beer never 

seems to sit around very long. I started collecting plastic caps 

to replace the metal ones, which get bent out of shape. All of 

the plastice caps from various sizes and brands seem to be 

interchangeable.

          Champagne bottles also work well. The American ones 

take a crown cap and the European ones, which I just used for 

Christmas gifts, take a plastic stopper.

 

2. Re: Gene Zimmerman's question re: SS kegs and bung holes,

 it might be easier to get a 15 gal. Bud keg with the straight 

sides. It has built in handles and, as a bonus, since it comes 

from Bud, it will be uncontaminated by beer.  I cut the top 

off mine by drilling pilot holes and then using a jig saw with a

metal cutting blade. The stainless is thin and there was no 

problem cutting it. Make sure you get Lenox blades, and have 

several spares. They will break.

 

3. Re: Beer sphere from HBD #1310, I have the Mark Fritz ball 

and have only used it 3 times. The seal is not very good and needs 

to be replaced with something better.

 

4. Re: Steve Lichtenberg's question about DE filters: Zymurgy 

did an article on that a couple of issues ago. I will have to look

for the specific one. It may have been the last Spring or Summer one.

 

5. Re: bottle labels - In our part of the country we get Rolling Rock

 beer. Their labels are silk screened on the bottle. Make sure you get 

the returnable long necks from a bar as opposed to the throw-aways 

from the beverage store.

 

I guess this is getting pretty long. Sorry if I've violated some rule 

here but I'm new to this type of communication. I know I'll be told 

one way or the other.  I'll save the rest of my comments for another day.

 

Thanks for bearing with me.

 

Marc G.


- --
GREETINGS EARTHLINGS and HAPPY BREWING from:
Marc Goldfarb, DIMARC BREWING CO.
Cleveland, Ohio
216-631-3323 or on INTERNET dd596 at cleveland.freenet.edu

Return to table of contents


Date: Tue, 4 Jan 94 12:39:28 MST
From: npyle at n33.stortek.com
Subject: Water Analysis

I received my water analysis from the city and it contains the following
tidbits of information (I say tidbits, because it isn't exactly all-inclusive).
It also contains some useless information (to a brewer) such as conductivity,
and langelier index.  All units are ppm unless otherwise specified:

 Parameter                     Min.  Avg.  Max. (6 month)
 ------------------------      ----- ----- -----
 Temperature (C)                 7.1  16.9  24.0
 pH (SU)                         7.1   8.7   9.6
 Fluoride                        0.3   0.9   1.2
 Alkalinity, Total              18.0  29.8  51.0
 Hardness, Total                 9.0  20.7  57.0
 Hardness, Calcium               8.0  17.8  45.0
 Dissolved Solids               22.0  68.0 128.0
 Trihalomethanes, Total (ppb)   55.2  70.1 114.2

My initial comments:

* The water's COLD this time of year!
* Fluoride is about what Miller says to expect
* Pretty soft water
* It sure would be nice to know what those "dissolved solids" are!
* I want to know about sodium, magnesium, potassium, and sulfates!!!
* THM is not bad, I think?
* Most of the parameters are quite variable.  Use the averages and live with it.

My advice to myself:

The pH is meaningless.  According to Miller, the high pH can be caused by chalk
treatment at the water plant, which is supported by the fact that the untreated
water has a lower pH and less alkalinity (not shown above).  My pale beers are
very good and my dark beers are not so good, so it is quite possible that the
pH of my dark mashes drops too low (below 5).  This is supported by the low
carbonate levels (alkalinity), and low hardness levels (not much buffering
capacity).  Measure the pH of the darker mashes and adjust upward if necessary
with calcium carbonate (chalk).  This shouldn't be a problem since the calcium
levels are generally quite low also.  It probably wouldn't hurt my pale beers
either, if the high calcium levels of Burton-on-Trent are any indication.
Watch the IBUs if adding carbonates!

Well, how'd I do?  Any comments from you net.brewing.water.experts?  I would
appreciate any feedback on this.  I've learned a lot by rereading Papazian and
Miller on this subject, but it'll be another week or so before I'm an expert.
;^)  All seriousness aside, it is pretty amazing what you can learn when you
concentrate on one aspect of brewing for a few days at a time.  The gains are
far greater than when bombarded with it all at once, like when you first start
brewing.  Three years at this hobby and I'm starting to feel like I know
something.  Of course, the more I learn, the more I realize how little I know!
Does the Siebel Institute offer mail order courses????

Cheers,
Norm

Return to table of contents


Date:    Tue, 04 Jan 94 14:27 CST
From: "Pete Brauer 312/915-6157" <$W$PR42%LUCCPUA.BITNET at UICVM.UIC.EDU>
Subject: Samuel Smith

In response to whether 17.00 is a fair price, I think that it is iff
your area has a high liquor tax.  $12.00 to $15.00 is normal to a little
high so if there are additional taxes or excise then you are in the
ballpark for Samuel Smith Stout.

Return to table of contents


Date: Tue, 4 Jan 94 13:59 CST
From: korz at iepubj.att.com
Subject: HSA

Steven writes:
>  Got more questions:  how hot does wort have to be for HSA to occur?  I 

I've read in several places to cool till the wort is below 80F before
aerating, so this is what I do.  When I started doing this (perhaps
5 years ago), my beers suddenly lost that "wet cardboard/sherry-like"
aroma/flavor.

>noticed (nay, gagged on) the aroma of wet cardboard in a glass of an 
>all-extract beer.  Could that scent be due to anything else?  I've never had
>that problem before.  It was also my only grainless batch _and_ used 
>unfamiliar extracts.  I don't recall doing anything that would have aerated
>the hot wort.

It could have been the extract itself.  Old, poorly stored extract syrups can
oxidize right in the can/bag.  This may have been your problem.

>  Next: how do _you_ rehydrate dry malt extract?  I'm getting very fond

I just dump it in just before the boil temp is reached.

*******
Chris writes:
>Is it important to boil the hops with the malt?

No.
 
>On the back of a label from a can of extract malt I read a 
>procedure in which it was suggested to boil the bittering hops in 
>water and add the extract after the boil was finished.  This 
>seems to make some sense.  The "extract twang" is due in part to 
>caramelization of the malt sugars.  Since caramelization is a 
>function the time of boiling the malt, it seems wise to limit 
>the time the malt is boiled.  Boiling the hops in just water 
>also makes sense from a hop utilization standpoint, since the 
>percent utilization will be greater for a low gravity boil 
>(water).  Would following such a procedure improve the taste of 
>extract brews?  Any comments?

I think you may be right about the better hop utilization, but then again,
it's not wise to boil the malt for less than, oh, say 30 minutes (this time is
just speculation on my part -- nothing that I've read anywhere specifies it).
Two additional purposes of boiling are to coagulate proteins and to drive off
DMS.  Some of this has occurred during the production of the extract and thus
the boil time for an extract wort can probebly be half of that recommended for
all-grain worts. Personally, I feel that most of the extract "tang" or "twang"
is from poorly made, old or mishandled extracts or from the addition of
excessive amounts of dextrose, fructose and sucrose either by the extract
manufacturer or by the brewer.  I recommend you find extracts you can trust
and stick with them.

Al.

Return to table of contents


Date: Tue, 4 Jan 94 15:53:39 PST
From: tpm at wdl.loral.com (Tim P McNerney)
Subject: Using Lager Yeasts at Ale Temps

I understand why the opposite might pose problems (yeast going dormant, slow
fermentation), but are there any reasons not to use lager yeasts at high
temps (other than the fact that the finished beer wouldn't taste like a
lager)?  I know that this is the method used for Steam(TM) beers, but was
curious as to why it isn't more generally used.

- --Tim

Return to table of contents


Date: Tue, 4 Jan 1994 19:08:33 -0600 (CST)
From: Cree-ee-py Boy <BIRMINGH at FNALV.FNAL.GOV>
Subject: Thermoelectric gizmos


         Bob Dougherty asks:


>Has anyone tried playing with thermoelectric modules?  (They're chips which act
>as heat pumps when a current is passed through them.  A few cooler makers have
>used them in electric coolers.)  I've been looking for a small used fridge for
>my brew closet (space is tight!) and can't find one.  I'm considering building
>an insulated box and refridgerating it myself.  The solid-state system
>appeals to me cause I don't want to mess with hoses, coils, compressors, etc.
>and I just plain like neat, new gadgets.

         You are talking about a Peltier junction. American Science and
    Surplus sells a small (1.17" sq) for $25.00 and a large (1.56" sq) for
    $35.00.

         The small is item number 22627, the large is 89143. ASS's number
    is (708) 982-0870, and they take Visa/Master Card.

         Have fun, and tell me how it works, please.

                                                     Phillip Birmingham



Return to table of contents


Date: Tue, 4 Jan 1994 17:53:34 -0800
From: mfetzer at UCSD.EDU (The Rider) (Michael Fetzer)
Subject: heat sterilizing/foil caps

In HBD 1315 Jeff Frane writes:

>Alan Carlson, from Sweden, mentions also using little foil caps on his
>bottles (someone else wanted to know why) to keep the bottles sanitized
>once they've come out of the oven.  Yup.  And to answer Alan's question,
>yup again: they stay nicely sanitized for quite a while after the fact.
>I regularly use them days -- or even a week or more -- after they come
>out of the oven; that's the whole point.  Once they've been in the oven
>and are kept closed by the foil, I'm mystified at how the bottles might
>suddenly become *un* sanitized.  This doesn't mean I've ever had the
>nerve to use the bottles a couple of months later -- why take chances
>with fate?

I just wanted to point out that covering flasks and carboys with alu foil
before autoclaving is standard operating procedure in chemistry
microbiology labs. As a matter of fact, they autoclave their culture media
this way to sterilize it.

The sterilized foil capped flasks are stored for days, and even the so
sterilized culture media is kept around for quite a bit. Sure, they don't
end up drinking the stuff, but they do worry about contamination.

An interesting side note: a friend at UCSD uses (used?) the autoclave to
actually brew beer. That's right... toss the extract and water in carboy,
add hops, autoclave for an hour, cool, pitch, and brew right in the labs
cold storage room. They even drank most of it there. ;) Beer never left the
lab, so to speak, until the very end.

Mike


- --
Michael Fetzer                         pgp 2.2 key available on request
Internet:      mfetzer at ucsd.edu        uucp:    ...!ucsd!mfetzer
Bitnet:        FETZERM at SDSC
HEPnet/SPAN:   SDSC::FETZERM           or       27.1::FETZERM



Return to table of contents


Date: Tue, 4 Jan 1994 18:40:53 -0800
From: Ken Michael Johnson <kmj at leland.Stanford.EDU>
Subject: slow ale fermentation

Has anyone had a really slow fermentation with ales?

I made a batch with:

10 lb pale malt
3 oz Styrian Goldings flower for 90 min
1 oz " for 1 min
1 oz " dry hopped
Sierra Nevada yeast

After about four days the initial fermentation started to die
down a little, and I added the extra hops.  Fermentation continued
for three more weeks.  The temperature in my house was probably
around 50 F.  A bit cold, but what do you expect from an Eichler?

I had assumed that the long fermentation was due to infection.  But
last night I tasted it, and nothing was wrong.  It was the best
flat, warm beer I've had.

So was the fermentation time caused by cold temperatures, lazy
yeast, or the beer gods?

kj

Return to table of contents



End of HOMEBREW Digest #1316, 01/05/94