FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Rob Gardner, Digest Coordinator


Contents:
  taxes and Grants' Yakima Cider (tim norris)
  America's Finest (x-4378)" <Simpson at po2.rb.unisys.com>
  yeast removal ("JSDAWS1 at PROFSSR")
  competition announcments/dryhopping (korz)
  Bottle Hopping (Mark Garetz)
  RE: Using Lager Yeasts at Ale Temps (don sharp)
  Wanted:  Good Porter Recipes (Derrick Pohl)
  Ur-Maerzen (Mike Dix)
  Hong Kong (fjdobner)
  Re: Dry Yeast Suggestions/New Yeast FAQ soon!/UV on Bottles (Dion Hollenbeck)
  Re: Dry Yeast Suggestions/New Yeast FAQ soon! (Allan Rubinoff)
  Re: Ur-Maerzen (REGINAH)
  Microwaves? and brewpots (again:) (John Glaser)
  my 1st batch (Shawn Kennedy)
  Downloading "Brewart" from sierra.stannford.edu (GONTAREK)
  Upper Canada Brewing Co. (Thomas_Tills.Henr801h)
  Wyeast 3068 Weihensephen culture (Paul Crowell)
  1994 Karnival of Beers (Kip Damrow)
  Dark Candi Sugar (Charles"Skip" Virgilio)
  Oak Casks / Malting Grains / Kitzinger Yeast / HBD competition / ovens ("J. Hunter Heinlen")
  Which Material (Bob_McIlvaine)
  Update on Mead and Ale Yeast Problems ("wch at gnv.ifas.ufl.edu")
  Frozen Lager Fermentation (Mark Stickler Internet Mail Name)
  RIMS Temp control (Bob_McIlvaine)
  5 Gallon Plastic Carboys (WKODAMA)
  Iodine as a sanitizer? (GANDE)
  AHA National schedule (Spencer.W.Thomas)
  malt mills (/R=HERLVX/R=AM/U=KLIGERMAN/FFN=KLIGERMAN/)
  Re: Filters (Jim Busch)
  Mailing alky beverages to someone (Bob Ambrose)
  Re: Sky Brew ("Peter Gothro" )
  5 gallon PLASTIC carboys (GANDE)
  Plastic carboys (Richard Buckberg)
  Shipping homebrew (Richard Buckberg)
  San Andreas Malts (Richard Buckberg)
  To oxygenate or not (tony_M)
  Gab / FAQ / Chilling Out (npyle)
  Clear plastic carboys (Todd Jennings)


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----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: 12 Jan 94 13:29:09 EST
From: tim norris <71650.1020 at CompuServe.COM>
Subject: taxes and Grants' Yakima Cider

John L. Isenhour wrote:
>in gestapo garb.  Grant had gotten written permission from atf to produce
>cider, which is not regulated/taxed (at least in that state, I guess) 
cause it
>ain't wine, it ain't beer.  But the atf now says they have to pay back 
taxes
>plus a fine, and the previous permission given by atf ment nothing.  Next 
thing

Brian Bliss replied:
>all alcohol is federally taxed, with the exception of cider.
>apparrently when the started taxing liquor (how long ago was this ?),
>they wanted to exempt small-time mom & pop roadside shops serving hard
>cider from all the riagmoroll.  I don't see how grant's can pay back
>taxes on something that's not taxed (federally, at least).

 The rest of the tax story, as I recall, was that ATF decided that due to 
the manufacturing process and ingredients used in Grants Cider, the product 
was a wine, and was to be retroactively taxed as a wine at the current 
HIGHER tax rate, rather than part at the current rate and part at the old 
lower rate. Stiff penalties for not paying the taxes on time were added. 
Breweries can't make and sell wine, and Grants is not a winery, so they are 
also being punished/fined for producing a wine (cider) at a facility that 
doesn't have a license to produce wine. 

 When Bert and Sherry Grant first approached the regulatory and taxing 
agencies about producing a cider, they were told that the alcohol content 
was too high to be beer and too low to be wine, and they could not pay 
taxes on the product.

The notes above are simply what I remember from a group conversation with 
the Grants and a whole bunch of cool Crazy Train guys; after the brewery 
tour following a lunch and beer at Grants Yakima Pub after sniffing and 
rubbing and sucking on very fresh hops all day. I have a copy of Grants' 
press release somewhere, if anyone REALLY wants to here the entire story 
from Grants' POV.

Tim

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Date: Wed, 12 Jan 94 10:33:00 PST
From: "SIMPSON, Mark (x-4378)" <Simpson at po2.rb.unisys.com>
Subject: America's Finest


Hey BrewGuys/Gals!!!

Here's the info on the first annual "America's Finest City Homebrew 
Contest", scheduled for March 12,
1994!!!  The entry window is March 1st through the 9th.

1)  The entry fee is $5.00 for the first entry and $3.00 for the remaining 
entries.  You can enter only one
brew per sub-category but you can enter as many classes as you wish.

2)  Send 2 (two) bottles per entry as we are also having a "Best Of  Show" 
contest.

3)  Indicate (by arrow or other obvious sign) which side is "up" so we may 
store the packages properly.

4)  Mail all entries to:  Beer and Wine Crafts
                 450 Fletcher Parkway
                  Suite 112
                  El Cajon, CA 92020


All recognized AHA beverage styles will be judged.  We plan to send an entry 
packet to anyone who plans
to enter the contest.  I have an electronic copy of the AHA contest 
guidelines or you can get them from the
most recent Zymurgy.  Contact either Mark Simpson:  (619) 578-2627 or Skip 
Virgilio:  (619) 566-7061.
I can be e-mailed at:  simpson at rb.unisys.com.

So, GET BREWING NOW!!!

Cheers!

Mark Simpson;  VP of QUAFF in San Diego






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Date: 12 Jan 1994 10:52:10 PST
From: "JSDAWS1 at PROFSSR" <JSDAWS1 at PB1.PacBell.COM>
Subject: yeast removal

just heard an interesting BBC report on chemical engineering on NPR.
They're studdying the feasability of using ultrasound technology to
drop the yeast in beer immediately after primary fermentation. Apparently
this is still in the lab but they intend a pilot commercial operation
soon.   Supposedly the yeast will  'line up' along sound waves at the right
frequency and then drop out of suspension.
Wonder what AB will do with this one....   I'll have an Ultrasound Lite  :)

|    Don't anthropomorphize computers...  They don't like it.         |
| ------------------------------------------------------------------- |
| JACK DAWSON  -  JSDAWS1  -  415 545-0299  -  CUSTOMER BILLING  (BG) |

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Date: Wed, 12 Jan 94 12:53 CST
From: korz at iepubj.att.com
Subject: competition announcments/dryhopping

Regarding Competitions, I feel it would be more appropriate
to simply post an announcment and a email address from which
interested brewers could get more info.  Posting category
descriptions and entry forms takes up a lot of space and
benefits only subset of the HBD readership, IMO.

JC writes:
>I want to dry-hop when I keg, and I'm wondering the appropriate amount
>of hops to use.  This will be for 4-5 gals - not sure if I'm going to bottle

I use between 1/2 and 1 ounce for a 5 gallon batch.

***********
Michael writes:
>	Is it "good" to boil the whole volume of H20 when making extract
>based beers?  The reason I ask is if it is good ( to remove all O2 ?) then why
>turn around after the wort has cooled and aerate the whole mess again - in 
>effect undoing what the boil has done.

When wort is over 80F, any oxygen (i.e. air) in solution will result in
Hot-Side- Aeration (HSA) effects, which are detrimental to the flavor of
your beer, so the fact that the O2 comes out of solution when you boil is
important.  The reasons for boiling are: 1. protein coagulation (hot break),
2. hop alpha-acid isomerization, 3. sanitation, and 4. removal of chlorine
(if you have chlorinated water).

>Also, has anyone had success using malt extract to prime with?  I would like
>to try using dried extract, but have no clue how much extract = 1 cup corn
>sugar.

1 cup of corn sugar is a bit too much for standard carbonation levels.  I use
between 1/3 and 3/4 cup, depending on the style.  If you use DME, you need
to use about 20 to 25% more by weight, so about 3/4 to 1 1/4 cups of DME to
equal my 1/3 to 3/4 cup dextrose.  Note, that I recommend that you force-
chill your priming solution if you use DME and leave the resulting hot and
cold break OUT of your beer (otherwise, it will create a oily scum on the
top of the liquid in the bottles).

*******
>In HBD Chris Camley Writes:
>>Subject: Kitchenaid grain mill
>>line has a grain mill attachment, but there were no details 
>>available at the store.  Does anyone know whether this is
>>suitable for use in mashing?

I haven't seen the Kitchenaid, but I suspect that it is set up for milling
grains for baking and not brewing.  If this is the case, it will mill your
grain much too finely for brewing.

****
Mark writes:
>What can be said of an "Ur-Maerzen"? (My Deutsch tells me "very Maerzen", but
>>that doesn't help much.) Spaten claims this on their Oktoberfest.

"Ur" means "original," as in "Urquell," which means "from the original source."
However, I've seen several breweries add the "Ur-" prefix to some of their
beers and they all can't be the original.  I believe, however, that Gabriel
Sedlmayr of the Spaten Braurei, *was* the first to brew Maerzen/Oktoberfest.
Please note that it was modeled after Anton Dreher's Vienna style beer.
Bring on that BJCP exam -- I'm sure I can make National this time!

Al.

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Date: Wed, 12 Jan 94 10:58:12 PST
From: Mark Garetz <mgaretz at hoptech.com>
Subject: Bottle Hopping

sean v. taylor writes:

>        I had a chance to talk to one of my old friends (and
> a homebrewer) over the holidays and we were talking about
> dry hopping.  He mentioned that it might be interesting to
> try bottle hopping--that is, adding hops (one or two leaves,
> perhaps) directly to the bottle.
>        Has anybody heard of or tried this before?  Outside of possible
> contamination from the hops, would it add some negative aspect to the
> beer that we aren't considering?

I have tried this and in fact mentioned it my article on dry hopping
that was in the Summmer '93 Zymurgy.  It works, but the results are
pretty inconsistent.  Some observations:

1)  Choose whole hop cones that are in good shape.  Put one cone in
each bottle.  If you try and pick cones that are about the same size,
you will get more consistent results.  Use the largest cones you can
find.

2)  When filling the bottle, try and trap the cones at the bottom of
the bottle with the end of the bottle filler.  Otherwise they will float
up into the neck and getting a good fill is more difficult to gauge.

3)  When pouring, be ready to pour the beer in one go.  If the hop cone
is floating in the bottleneck (still), pouring without getting yeast
in the beer is near impossible.  If you wait for the hop cone to sink,
pouring is much easier.  It may take several months for it to sink!

Given the problems and the variable results, I'd say it's not really
worth the effort.  But you can certainly give it a try on a few bottles.
Be sure and let us know how the beer comes out.

BTW, I also tried an experiment by putting a hop pellet in some tea bag
material (which was heat sealable) and dropping that in the beer.  I 
actually put them in some bar-longneck bottles of Bud and recapped.
Theoretically this should have worked well, but there was no discernable
hop aroma in the beer (and being Bud, the slightest amount should have
been discernable).  I haven't had time to go back and try it again.

Mark

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Date: Wed, 12 Jan 1994 14:08:33 -0500
From: dsharp at world.std.com (don sharp)
Subject: RE: Using Lager Yeasts at Ale Temps

tpm at wdl.loral.com (Tim P McNerney) writes:
>Subject: Using Lager Yeasts at Ale Temps
>
>I understand why the opposite might pose problems (yeast going dormant, slow
>fermentation), but are there any reasons not to use lager yeasts at high
>temps (other than the fact that the finished beer wouldn't taste like a
>lager)?  I know that this is the method used for Steam(TM) beers, but was
>curious as to why it isn't more generally used.
>
>- --Tim

Well, here's one data point:

A friend of mine is a fan of Genesee Cream Ale, and isn't at all fond
of the IPA's and bitters that I usually brew, so I decided to try a
Genee taste-alike to please him. Combing my reference shelf for hints
as to how to accomplish this, one thing that stands out is that cream
ale is a style brewed with lager yeast at ale temp.  I just made a
5-gallon batch using abut 6 pounds of Tedford's extra-light extract,
no adjunct grains, what seemed to me a minimal amount of Hallertauer
hops (not sure if this is stylistically correct) and Wyeast Bavarian
lager yeast.

I tried to keep the fermentation temp relatively low by keeping the
fermenter in my basement under an open window - since the outside
ambient temp was hovereing around 32 F for most of that time the
indoor temp around the fermenter was around 40 - 50 F.  The rate of
fermentation was basically similar to other batches I've made with
Wyeast London, Irish and Chico ale yeasts, although perhaps a little
slower to ferment out - not what I would have expected using the naive
rule warmer temp = faster fermentation.  But I have no experience
brewing lagers, so maybe this really was faster than normal for this
yeast.

The resulting brew is a little on the dark side, next time I need to
work on getting it a little paler.  I haven't really worked up a
flavor profile for it, it does more or less approximate Genesee Cream
Ale.  While not as neutral in flavor as a lager, it isn't as tasty as
my typical ales brewed with ale yeast (and of course other adjunct
grains and lots more hops).  But it certainly doesn't show any obvious
problems, so I'm planning on another batch.  

Don

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Date: Wed, 12 Jan 1994 11:15:49 -0800
From: pohl at unixg.ubc.ca (Derrick Pohl)
Subject: Wanted:  Good Porter Recipes

I've been all-grain brewing for 3 years now, and have yet to brew a porter.
 I intend to correct this outrageous oversight with due haste.

Please send me your finest porter recipe(s) - not ones that were merely OK,
or not bad, but ones that were IYHO truly stunning and marvelous. 
All-grain recipes are preferred, but I'll hack together an all-grain
conversion if an extract recipe piques my interest.  I want a strong brew,
anywhere between O.G. 1.060 and 1.090.  Ingredients I already have which I
would like to use are Wyeast London Ale yeast and Canadian prairie 2-row
pale malt (Canadian Export Malting Co.).

Please accompany your recipe with a description of the finished product, in
whatever impassioned terms you please (being easily prey to my emotions, I
may be swayed by particularly eloquent songs of praise), to help me decide
which one to brew.  I want something black, something luscious, something
complex, something to linger over, to let age, to bring out on special
occasions with a warm glow of pride, that will splash into the waiting
glass with a cool rich darkness, and then rest gloriously under a creamy
layer of golden-brown foam, velvet black against the flickering flames of
the fireplace.  I think you know what I'm getting at....

Many thanks!


- -----
Derrick Pohl <pohl at unixg.ubc.ca>, Faculty of Graduate Studies
University of British Columbia, Vancouver, B.C.



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Date: Wed, 12 Jan 94 11:39:43 "PST
From: Mike Dix <mdix at dcssc.sj.hp.com>
Subject: Ur-Maerzen

I am not the most qualified to answer Mark's question, but:

Ur means original (urtyp means prototype, for example).  So I conclude that 
Spaten is claiming that their Maerzen is the original Maerzenbier.

Fellow toilers please note I am composing this on my lunch time.

Mike Dix

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Date: Wed, 12 Jan 94 13:42 CST
From: fjdobner at ihlpa.att.com
Subject: Hong Kong

Anyone,

I have a colleague here at work that will be moving to Hong Kong very soon.
He is a bit concerned about the local laws concerning homebrewing,
availability of homebrew supplies and infrastructure (size of stove ranges
and other types of things).

Does anyone have any knowledge about the homebrewing scene in Hong Kong?
It would be tangibly appreciated by a brother brewer.

Frank Dobner

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Date: Wed, 12 Jan 94 12:04:57 PST
From: hollen at megatek.com (Dion Hollenbeck)
Subject: Re: Dry Yeast Suggestions/New Yeast FAQ soon!/UV on Bottles

>>>>> "Patrick" == Patrick Weix <weix at netcom.com> writes:

Patrick> Dear All:
Patrick> My choices for dry yeasts are:
Patrick>         Red Star Ale
Patrick>         Llelemand Nottingham Ale
Patrick> Others have recommended:
Patrick>         Edme
Patrick>         Cooper's

Patrick> I would avoid the Whitbread dry. I (and others) have
Patrick> experienced odd aftertastes when using this yeast.

Patrick> As the editor of the yeast FAQ (and a brewer of ales), I
Patrick> would like to know other peoples opinions on the dry yeasts
Patrick> and which types are widely available. The best e-mail address
Patrick> for me is now weix at netcom.com.


I have been using Windsor Ale with success in Porter.  Attenuation is
about 70% or so.  

dion

Dion Hollenbeck (619)455-5590x2814     Email: hollen at megatek.com
Staff Software Engineer                       megatek!hollen at uunet.uu.net
Megatek Corporation, San Diego, California    ucsd!megatek!hollen

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Date: Wed, 12 Jan 94 15:13:31 EST
From: Allan Rubinoff <rubinoff at BBN.COM>
Subject: Re: Dry Yeast Suggestions/New Yeast FAQ soon!

Patrick Weix writes:

>As the editor of the yeast FAQ (and a brewer of ales), I would like to 
>know other peoples opinions on the dry yeasts and which types are
>widely available.

I appreciate Patrick's efforts to increase the amount of information
about dry yeast in the FAQ.  I know all about the evils of dry yeast,
but I also know that without it, I wouldn't be able to brew at all.  
(I have to be able to brew when *I'm* ready, not when the yeast is.) 
There are a couple of questions I'd be curious to see answered:

 - What temperature ranges can various dry yeasts function within?  In
  the case of ale yeasts, I'm especially interested in how low the
  temperature can be, because my apartment is usually below 60 degrees
  at this time of year.  Also, looking ahead to summer (?!?), what
  dry ale yeasts are least likely to produce off flavors at high
  temperatures?

 - What do people think about the new Yeast Lab dry yeasts?  (European
  Lager, Amsterdam Lager, and Australian Ale.)  I know that in the past
  dry lager yeasts have been pretty unreliable, but I'm wondering if the
  ones from Yeast Lab are better.

Thanks,

Allan Rubinoff  <rubinoff at bbn.com>

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Date:          Wed, 12 Jan 1994 15:23:04 EST5EDT
From: REGINAH at SOCIOLOGY.Lan.McGill.CA
Subject:       Re: Ur-Maerzen

According to Michael Jackson's World of Beer, `Ur' is a prefix 
meaning the original or the prototypical.  I don't think that use of 
`Ur' is regulated by law.
**********************************************************************
*                                                                    *
*   Regina Harrison                        `A thing can be true and  *
*   Dept. of Anthropology                   still be desparate       *
*   McGill University                       folly, Hazel.'           *
*   Montreal, Quebec, Canada                            --Fiver      *
*   reginah at sociology.lan.mcgill.ca                                  *
*                                                                    *
**********************************************************************
    

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Date: Wed, 12 Jan 94 13:52:16 -0700
From: John Glaser <glaser at analog.ece.arizona.edu>
Subject: Microwaves? and brewpots (again:)

	Just out of curiousity, has anyone used a microwave oven for  
sterilization of stuff. It seems to me that many  
difficult-to-sterilize, particularly plastic stuff like tubing, could  
be put in a microwave along with a cup of water, so you don't ruin  
your oven ( or to absorb excess micros, of course :) and nuked for a  
bit. Has anyone tried this and lived to tell? Also, El Cheapo Vodka  
makes a great sanitizer. It is especially useful for those rare  
occasions when you immediately need to use something you forgot to  
sanitize. 

	Also, regarding brewpots, for those who live in the  
southwest, if you live near a Southwest Supermarket store, they have  
an excellent 8 gallon enameled pot for $30. They have a flat bottom  
and are about 3X thicker than comparable pots I have seen elsewhere,  
which makes them especially useful for those of you who bear the  
curse of the electric stove. I use mine with a 1/4 inch flameproof  
insulating wraparound and can bring 5.5 gallons of wort to a boil in  
about 1/2 hour over a single burner. (I'm not competing with you jet  
engine owners :^)
	Hope this helps somebody.

John Glaser (glaser at analog.ece.arizona.edu)


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Date: Wed, 12 Jan 1994 16:02:40 -0500
From: skennedy at poirot.eece.maine.edu (Shawn Kennedy)
Subject: my 1st batch


Hi all! I'm a soon-to-be-homebrewer, and I'm a little nervous about
my 1st batch. It's an English bitter and I believe it's a simple
single stage fermentation procedure. These are likely asinine questions,
but answers would be much appreciated: 

1) my kit has only one fermenter, yet the directions refer to 2! Do
   I need a second one for the priming sugar mixing stage?

2) It says "use a hydrometer" (which I have) to monitor fermentation.
   Do I wait until the fermenter steadies at a single value before
   I bottle, or do I look for a particular numerical reading? The
   directions aren't clear on this.

Thanks in advance.

 -Shawn 


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Date: Wed, 12 Jan 1994 16:20:47 -0400 (EDT)
From: GONTAREK at JHUVMS.HCF.JHU.EDU
Subject: Downloading "Brewart" from sierra.stannford.edu

Hi all.  Please excuse my naivite, but could someone please tell me
why I cannot download "BrewArt_1.hqx" from sierra.stanford.edu?  I am
told that permission is denied.  I have waited patiently for the
files to be archived, and now I can't get them!  help, please!
Thanks for all help.

Rick Gontarek

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Date: 	Wed, 12 Jan 1994 13:39:19 PST
From: Thomas_Tills.Henr801h at xerox.com
Subject: Upper Canada Brewing Co.

>1)One of my favorite beers is from the Upper Canada Breweries.  The Upper
>Canada Rebellion.  Does anyone know what hops (and how many HBUs?) are used
>and the OG/FG of this beer is?  What about other Upper Canada beers?  Has
>Anyone toured this Brewery?

My homebrew club toured the Brewery last year and it was the best stop on our
trip.  The minute we walked in the door, they started pouring samples. (all the
other brewerys made us go through the whole tour before giving us any samples)
I think the reason UCBC do this is that the tasting room is also chock full of
high quality/high priced UCBC merchandise, and before we left, we spent several
hundred dollars buying T-shirts and sweats and cases of beer.  So ... beware of
this trap, but do stop for a tour if you are ever in Toronto.


			TNT

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Date: Wed, 12 Jan 94 16:04:35 MST
From: fmicos!trojan!crowell at uunet.UU.NET (Paul Crowell)
Subject: Wyeast 3068 Weihensephen culture


  Anyone ever try brewing an ale using Wyeast 3068 Weihensephen lager
yeast?  I'm a wheat beer fan and don't have lagering facilities, but
I'm tempted to give this a try.  (This should fetch *real*
controversy and debate!) 

- --
- --

  P a u l  C r o w e l l	Technical Lead, IC Development Group
           ________             Ford Microelectronics, Inc.
          /  ___   )            9965 Federal Drive
         /  /   ) /             Colorado Springs, CO  80921-3698
        /  /\__/ /              TEL:  (719) 528-7609
       /  /     /               FAX:  (719) 528-7635
      /   \____/                internet:       uunet!fmicos!crowell
      \_________
				*** Note the change of address.  :-) ***
- --

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Date: Wed, 12 Jan 94 09:33:55 PST
From: kdamrow at Thomas.COM (Kip Damrow)
Subject: 1994 Karnival of Beers  

Yesterday I posted regarding the "Karnival of Beers"
at the Fullerton (CA) Hofbrau. I screwed-up by
stating that the charity event is for the
*Food Partnership of Orange Co.*. I meant the
Food Distribution Center of Orange Co.
Sorry about that.

Also...Homebrewers can get a discount by purchasing
your tickets before the 31st. Call Russell at the 
Hofbrau for more info. (714) 870-7400

Russell told me that Sierra Nevada, Anchor Steam,
Rogue, Lost Coast, Brewski's (San Diego) are just
a few of the 20-30 Micro's that will be there.

kip.

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Date: Wed, 12 Jan 1994 11:56:27 PST
From: cvirgilio at electriciti.com (Charles"Skip" Virgilio)
Subject: Dark Candi Sugar

I am looking for a supplier of dark candi sugar for a Belgian ale recipe.  I
have called several candy makers and home brew supply shops to no avail.  I
got a call from another brewer while I was typing this message and he spoke
to a chef who said that rock sugar is used by some asian chefs and that he
thought it may be the same as candi sugar.  If anyone can confirm that rock
sugar is the same as candi sugar, or better yet, recommend a supplier for
Belgian or Belgian type candi sugar, I would be gratefull.  I am in San
Diego, CA and my address is cvirgilio at electriciti.com.  



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Date: 13 Jan 1994 01:09:10 -0500 (EST)
From: "J. Hunter Heinlen" <STBLEZA at grove.iup.edu>
Subject: Oak Casks / Malting Grains / Kitzinger Yeast / HBD competition / ovens

Greetings and Salutations all...

1st.  Does anyone have good sources for aging in oak casks (or fermenting in
them, for that matter).  I recently acquired one at an acution, and wish to put
it into good use.  I do, actually, have access to books with info on using oak
casks, but they were written in the late 16th/ early 17th centuries, and I'm
wishing something a bit more up to date.

2nd.  Can anyone point me towards good info resources on the process of malting
grains.  I have a sketchy concept of what goes on, and can actually do it (and
have, once) in a primative way, but wish more info.  For reasons why, see no. 1
(or, at least, the books in no. 1).

3rd.  Does anyone know anything about the Kitzinger Pure Yeast Culture?  It's
from West Germany, and has the label 'Liebfrau-Milch' on the box top.  I
purchased it from the beer yeast section of my local home brew shop, but the
instructions indicate that it may be for wines and fermented fruit juices.
TIA for ANY info.  ANY AT ALL.

4th.  Has anyone considered hosting/having a HBD competition?  Seems like it
would be a nice thing for us to do as a group, and shouldn't be that hard to
organize (I hope).  Thoughts?  Ideas?

5th.  My $.02 about using ovens to sanatize bottles.  I've done this for about 8
months now, and have only have two bottles break.  One was a Grolsch bottle (was
I sad to see it go) that didn't like the heat.  We (I was with my brewing
partner at the time) accidently pre-heated the oven, so the bottle heated to
fast.  The second was after we had cooled the bottle (but not quite enough).  I
grabbed one out of the oven, thinking it was cool.  It didn't burn me, but it
was hot enough for me to drop it as a reflex action a second later.  It fell to
the ground, bounced three times (!), and broken on the fourth bounch.  It was a
Stoney's refillable, so I wasn't to torn over it.  Beyond that, the technique
has been wonderful to me, never an infection in the bottles.

6th.  Does anyone know of any good, cheap corny keg suppliers now that DeFalco
is gone?  I know others have asked this, but since I'm sending questions
anyways, and ftp'ing from my site is a no-no (admin things all transferred
software is pirated, regardless of it if it is or not), why not ask?

Please send replies to me.  If many people show an interest, I'll post responces
to the Digest.  Many Thanks.

+*****************************************+***********************************+
| One Banana Two Banana Three Banana Four |Jacobus Jager Draake               |
| <Help Me Someone! E-Mail me the rest of |(MKA J. Hunter Heinlen)            |
| this song. Also E-Mail me to trade vids>|(Internet:STBLEZA at GROVE.IUP.EDU)   |
+=========================================++==================================+
 Life without pain has no meaning.  I wish to give your life some meaning.

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Date: Thu, 13 Jan 94 09:09:08 EST
From: Bob_McIlvaine at keyfile.com
Subject: Which Material

What is the better material for the bottom
of a grain bag being used during mashing,
Nylon mesh or polypropolene?

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Date: Thu, 13 Jan 1994 09:12:50 -0500 (EST)
From: "wch at gnv.ifas.ufl.edu" <WCH at gnv.ifas.ufl.edu>
Subject: Update on Mead and Ale Yeast Problems

About 5 days ago, I posted a message concerning several problems I was having
with my second batch of mead.  Since that time, I have received several replies
that seem to point out my problem.

First a recap of the problems:
1)  I put in three packages of mead yeast over a 2 week period and fermentation 
    never started.
2)  As a last resort, I pitch in a package of my ale yeast and it took off.
I was concerned with how the ale yeast would affect the taste.
3)  I was wondering if the ale yeast would die at higher than beer alcohol 
levels.

In my first posting, I forgot to mention some specifics which others needed to
know in order to help pinpoint my problem so here they are.
Mead/wine yeast used:  Vierka
Ale Yeast Used:        Unicap Dry Brewer's yeast
Original Gravity of Must:  1.095
Fermentation Temp:    60-75 F (I'm a pawn to the weather)

Here is the answers to my problems ( I hope).
Dick Dunn suggested that if my supplier focuses on beer the mead yeast might
have been stale.  This is a distinct possibility so I'm switching suppliers
since mead and wine production seems to be an after thought at this suppliers.

Several people also suggested that I need to make a starter for the yeast
before putting the yeast in the carboy with the yeast.  One recipe for a starter
was 8 tsp. of honey in pint of water.  I haven't ever made a starter before
because I have never had problems before.  The first batch of mead I used a 
champagne yeast and it took hold shortly after pitching.

I was also warned to be very patient when using wine yeast since some of them
take a while to start off.

As far as the ale yeast effects on my mead, several have noted that the yeast
may impart an odd/off flavor to a young mead.  I will post again in about a 
month or so as an update on the taste.  There was no specific answer as to the
alcohol tolerance of this yeast since each yeast has a different alcohol
"potential."

I would like to thanks those of you who answered my questions and hope this
posting will help someone else.
Clint

___________________________________________________________________________
"Knowing is half the battle."    -  G.I. Joe
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------

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Date: Thu, 13 Jan 94 9:43:05 EST
From: Mark Stickler Internet Mail Name <mstickle at lvh.com>
Subject: Frozen Lager Fermentation

Oh-Oh, last night I came home and checked on my three 5 gallon glass
carboys I had on my front porch (it's closed in not open-air) and noticed
twoo of the carboys were begining to freeze. I checked the temp and it
had gotton down to 28 degrees F out there. Since none were Bocks (one
was a Rauchbier - it didn't freeze and the other two were Dortmunder
exports - they did) and didn't think I had any choice but to bring them
in immediately and let them thaw. I know I'm lucky neither of them
broke but has this ever happened to anyone? Its a first for me. It think
heat escaping from the house has always kept things above 32 degrees F
out there but we hace had about two weeks of subfreezing temps around
here. Is this beer ruined? There is no way I'm going to dump it but
what, chemically speaking or otherwise, has this done to it. One was
only partially frozen, but the other was pretty dern frozen. Any 
experience? I'll be sure to let you know when I drink it but that will
be atleast six months from now (I got 14 cases quesed up in the basement
ahead of these, bummer :>) ). Direct mail is mstickler at lvh.com.

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Date: Thu, 13 Jan 94 10:03:08 EST
From: Bob_McIlvaine at keyfile.com
Subject: RIMS Temp control

Having seen a couple of posts about RIMS
temp control, I thought I'd chime in. I built
a RIMS temp controller a 1500w imersion
element. I'm quite pleased with it's operation.
The controller uses a circuit similar to the
one shown in the Zymurgy Gadget issue.
I built is on a mail order etched circuit board
and mounted it in the box with the pump controller.

I'm not sure I'd bother with a micro-controller for temp
only, but... I am going to add smarts to control the
pump and the temp in conjunction. This will
allow fully programable mashs.

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Date: Thu, 13 Jan 1994 10:07:09 -0500
From: WKODAMA at aba.com
Subject:  5 Gallon Plastic Carboys

In HBD#1323 Andrew Pastuszak writes about plastic carboys: "They have to be
food grade, because they hold water."  I think that's a dangerous assumption. 
Lots of things that hold water quite adequately are by no means food grade.

Wesman


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Date: 13 Jan 94 15:05:00 GMT
From: GANDE at slims.attmail.com
Subject: Iodine as a sanitizer?


I have recently run out of Iodophor (Divosan MH to be specific, which
is a blend of Iodine and Nitric acid).  My usual sanitization process
is bleach solution soak with an Iodophor rinse, then storage, then a
bleach solution soak and a good rinse with hot water prior to actual
use.

My question is: Can I use regular drugstore Iodine (2.5%) instead of
Iodophor with similar results? I'm assuming that drugstore Iodine is
considerably stronger than brewers Iodophor solution, any ideas on
what dilution ratio to use?

TIA...Glenn
+----------------------------------+-----------------+
| Internet: gande at slims.attmail.com| "640K ought to  |
| Glenn Anderson                   |  be enough for  |
| Manager, Telecom. Facilities     |  anybody."      |
| Sun Life of Canada               |-Bill Gates, 1981|
+----------------------------------+-----------------+









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Date: Thu, 13 Jan 94 10:20:20 EST
From: Spencer.W.Thomas at med.umich.edu
Subject: AHA National schedule

(I'll try to be nice, but I am a bit annoyed.)

I want to know what the nice folks at the AHA were thinking about when
they set up the schedule for this year's National.  Not only are the
beers due on Income Tax Day, but the first round judging (at least at
Chicago) is on Mothers Day weekend.  This really makes it unpopular at
home.  I mean, I get enough flack as it is.

Would it have been so hard to move it a week one way or the other?  

(I better stop, otherwise I'm going to start using bad words.)

=S

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Date: Thu, 13 Jan 1994 10:09:21 -0500 (EST)
From: /R=HERLVX/R=AM/U=KLIGERMAN/FFN=KLIGERMAN/ at mr.rtpnc.epa.gov
Subject: malt mills

Since I am in the market for a malt will, I appreciated the posts
comparing the different mills done by the Boston (?) Club.  However,
after contacting Glatt, he told me he does not sell the mill from his
home or shop anymore and only distributes it thru stores.  He said he
would send me a list of distributers and/or prices which I never received.
Has anyone purchased one on the east coast or southern states?  If so what is
the cost and who sells them?  Right now I am trying to decide among the
diffrent types out there and cost will be a major factor.  Please e-mail
me your info. or opinions.  Presently I own a Corona and have been 
reasonably happy with it.  Is it really worth getting a malt mill?
Thanks,Andy Kligerman
e-mail:
kligerman%am%herlvx at mr.rtpnc.epa.gov

or try:
hombre973 at aol.com



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Date: Thu, 13 Jan 1994 10:42:14 -0500 (EST)
From: Jim Busch <busch at daacdev1.stx.com>
Subject: Re: Filters

> From: jim_sieja at ed22qm.msfc.nasa.gov
> Subject: Filters
> 
>                       Filters
 I recently purchased an OMNI brand water filter from my local Home Depot with
 the fittings and filters required to filter my first batch for about $24 which
 included two filters. I then soaked the filter housing, the lines and my keg
 attachments in a bleach solution for sanitation. The filters I purchased were 5
 micron (nominal) for filtering rust/sediment and were a fabic type, not carbon.
 The filters were individually packaged in plastic, and not knowing how to
 properly sanitize it, I assummed it was clean and just flushed the filter with
 water prior to starting to filter Ed's pale (my brother's killer all grain
 recipe that clones an anchor liberty ale). Well, after transfering the brew to
 the first keg and chilling, I proceeded to transfer the pale ale thru the
 filter and into the recieving keg for carbonation. The fltering went
 suprisingly fast, and cleanup was easy. My question is can I somehow clean the
 filter and sanitize it for future batches, or should I just discard the $3
 filter and use a new one each time? Also, should I try to sanitize the new
 filter prior to use, or proceed as I did previously. Any comments or help is
 appreciated, and can be sent to directly to me at
 jim_sieja at ed22qm.msfc.nasa.gov
*************************

 The Omni filter is the same one I use.  I have also used the woven fabric
 cart, but in my opinion, they become disposable items after use.  Since
 you can filter about 200 gallons of beer through a 5 micron polypro cart,
 and even at retail it is $23, the cost savings are considerable.  I am 
 still attempting to get enough interest in a bulk order of these filters,
 so email me if you want some. 

 So, how do you like the filtered Liberty clone?
 
 Jim Busch



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Date: Thu, 13 Jan 1994 10:51:06 -0500
From: ambroser at apollo.dml.georgetown.edu (Bob Ambrose)
Subject: Mailing alky beverages to someone

Al Gaspar <gaspar at STL-17SIMA.ARMY.MIL>  Writes:
 
I do not know what our friendly postal service rules are; however, the
way UPS words its rules "liquor" is not allowed.
=snip=
Wrapping each bottle in
bubble wrap and packing them in styrofoam popcorn should protect against
breakage.  Declaring the entire shipment contents as "gift", should cover other
interpretations of the word liquor.  I mail gifts to neices and nephews all the
time, and I don't have to list each and every toy; I just say gifts or presents.

==============
(There are absolutely NO puns intended below, this is a serious response)

With people mailing bombs to other people (re: the recent Buffalo incident)
I don't see why you couldn't mail a six pack container of any alky beverage.
Just declare it as "glass gift" so they will (hopefully) treat the package with
care and not "throw it around". I really doubt if they would open the package
for inspection. Maybe if you tried to send a case (high weight), but not a
couple bottles or one "champagne" bottle, packaged in an appropriate box.

Bob

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Date:         13 Jan 94 08:05:03 PST
From: "Peter Gothro" <PGOTHRO at marvin.ag.uidaho.edu>
Subject:      Re: Sky Brew

Hi Y'all!
    Just a quick note about taking beer with you when flying, at
least with regards to cabin pressurization.  Don't you recall those
cute cabin attendants walking up and down the aisle asking you if you
would like purchase one of the mass-produced pseudo-beers?  Stop and
think for a moment, about where it was made, and how it got on the
plane with you.  With regard to BudMillCoo, my guess is that it was
produced in some humongous plant, trucked to the airport, put on the
plane just before you jump on, and then peddled to you once aloft.
FWIW.
Mr. Pete

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Date: 13 Jan 94 16:05:05 GMT
From: GANDE at slims.attmail.com
Subject: 5 gallon PLASTIC carboys


Andrew sez..

>.From: <GNT_TOX_%ALLOY.BITNET at PUCC.PRINCETON.EDU>
>Subject:  5 gallon PLASTIC carboys

>We have these 5 gallon plastic carboys at work.  They look just like
>the glass ones, except they're made of clear plastic.  They have to
>be food grade, because they hold water.  Would these be suitable for
>fermenting beer?  Could I lager in one of these?  Is there a reason
>people always rack into glass?  Nabbing a couple of these would save
>me a LOT of money.

I thought this would be a real cool idea too, Andrew. Seems the
problem is that those clear plastic water carboys are oxygen
permeable, which would oxidize your batch terribly - especially if
you lager in them for a substantial period of time.

Bad news for your beer and your wallet. Sorry....Glenn
+----------------------------------+-----------------+
| Internet: gande at slims.attmail.com| "640K ought to  |
| Glenn Anderson                   |  be enough for  |
| Manager, Telecom. Facilities     |  anybody."      |
| Sun Life of Canada               |-Bill Gates, 1981|
+----------------------------------+-----------------+



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Date: Thu, 13 Jan 1994 08:13:29 -0800
From: Richard Buckberg <buck at well.sf.ca.us>
Subject: Plastic carboys


Someone asked about the use of plastic carboys.  It is my understanding,
though I don't know for sure, that the particular kind of plastic used in
water carboys is porous enough to let enough air in to the bottle to
potentially cause oxidation of the brew.  I don't know this first hand, but
a brewing supply person told me this.  

Of course, it is always possible he might have been trying to sell me
another glass carboy  %^)

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Date: Thu, 13 Jan 1994 08:15:31 -0800
From: Richard Buckberg <buck at well.sf.ca.us>
Subject: Shipping homebrew


Whenever I have wanted to send wine in the mail, or via private parcel
service, I generally list the contents as preserved fruit.  It is, after
all, a means of preserving the harvest, no?

When I have sent homebrew, I've labeled it as grains, or agriculutural
products.  

You could, though, just call it merchandise, and be done with it.

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Date: Thu, 13 Jan 1994 08:16:43 -0800
From: Richard Buckberg <buck at well.sf.ca.us>
Subject: San Andreas Malts


Does anyone have a newsletter for the Malts, or at least a schedule of the
next meeting or gathering?  I'd like to join in, but the phone number listed
in the _Celebrator_ is wrong.

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Date: Thu, 13 Jan 1994 11:11:03 -0500 (EST)
From: tony_M <morielli at harvard.edu>
Subject: To oxygenate or not



I've learned a lot from this list about oxygenating wert prior to pitching
yeast, however I have a question.  If the purpose of pre-pitch oxygenation
is to provide oxygen sufficient to allow the yeast population to undergo
two or three doublings prior to fermentation, couldn't one pitch the yeast
to their final density and avoid the oxygenation step.  I realize the
practical problem involved in growing that much yeast, but suppose one
just happened to have access to lots of yeast growing stuff in a lab
somewhere and growing vast quantities of the little guys was no problem. 
Also, I seem to remember reading somewhere that the commercial breweries
do it this way.  Is that true?  Thanks for the help. 

  --- blind lemon tony






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Date: Thu, 13 Jan 94 9:42:59 MST
From: npyle at n33.stortek.com
Subject: Gab / FAQ / Chilling Out

First of all, sorry to fill an entire HBD with my posts.  I sent one of those
on Monday, and it didn't get posted until Thursday, so its not *all* my fault.
On the other hand, I *have* been pretty talkative lately.

**

Chris Weight asks:

>For that matter, is there a compilation of answers to stupid beginners
>questions anywhere out there?

Check out the stanford archive site.  If I can access it, anyone can.  There is
a file there called hbd.faq or something like that.  If you can't use ftp, then
the listserver will email the files to you.  Read the HBD header for the
address, etc.

**

As someone privately pointed out: water weighs about 8# per gallon, so my claim
of not using 80# of tap water to chill my wort was wrong.  I use about 12
gallons == 96# of tap water.  I *did* say I hadn't done any calculations.  I
still claim that 80# of ice is overkill.

Cheers,
Norm

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Date: 13 Jan 94 12:09:50 EST
From: jennings at readmore.com (Todd Jennings)
Subject: Clear plastic carboys

In HBD 1323, Andrew Pastuszak asks about plastic carboys:

>We have these 5 gallon plastic carboys at work.  They look just like
>the glass ones, except they're made of clear plastic.  They have to be
>food grade, because they hold water.  Would these be suitable for
>fermenting beer?   
  
Check the bottom of these vessels.  You'll probably find the words 
"Approved For Water Use Only".
This is probably an indication that the carboy is NOT food-grade(water is 
not considered a food in this regard), and is not properly resistant to 
the solvency capabilities of alcohol.  They are probably not recommended 
by most for any fermentation, since they might produce off flavors.

Still, I, like you, have picked one up for free, and I use mine for 
PRIMARY ONLY.  Once the krausen has ebbed, I rack to either a glass 
carboy or a white, food-grade bucket.  So far, no problems.  But if you 
use the clear plastic ones for any duration AFTER alcohol has begun to 
accumulate in your beer you might be risking some off flavors.

Todd A. Jennings
tjenning at readmore.com
New York City

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End of HOMEBREW Digest #1325, 01/15/94