FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Rob Gardner, Digest Janitor


Contents:
  More ice beer absurdity (GONTAREK)
  IBU's ("Anderso_A")
  Canning Wort ("Jeff M. Michalski, MD")
  3 Tower all grain system (Jim_Merrill)
  Maple Wheat Beer (Jay Moser)
  Lactic Acid from Yogurt Culture? (Scott Barrett)
  Calculating AA in home grwon hops (Robert Schultz)
  Re: Oxygen & open fermenters (Jim Busch)
  Hop Vines (Rich Larsen)
  Re: converted keg, Metal Fusion burner (Dion Hollenbeck)
  AHA funding for projects? (Bob Jones)
  RE: extract recipes copies for popular beers (taylor)
  Fermentation _too_ fast?  Problem? (Brian Klimowski)
  Re: First Batch Paranoia, PsuedoEuroNewbieWannabe ("Palmer.John")
  Hop Planting/ Capper Buster/ Storing Wort (COYOTE)
  Hop utalization / Canning Wort (Lee=A.=Menegoni)
  FAQ: Stuck fermentation... (Christopher) <cwjones at microsoft.com>
  Stirring and SG measurements (Spencer.W.Thomas)
  What have I brewed?? (Spencer.W.Thomas)
  Starter culture (GNT_TOX_)
  Whiff of Banana (rprice)
  iodophor use/Sour Belgians/low OG/Dayton thermostat (Algis R Korzonas +1 708 979 8583)
  hop utilization/oxidized kraeusen... NOT (Algis R Korzonas +1 708 979 8583)
  Re: #1(2) Homebrew Digest #13... (budinski1)
  Re:  Broken bottle when capping! (Steve Christiansen)
  Finny thingies for cooling hot wort (Lee Bertagnolli)
  RE: Floating Thermometers in HBD #1372 (Kelvin Kapteyn)
  Recirculating Pumps ("Joe Stone")
  Hop Utilization vs. S.G. (Steve Daniel)
  Home kegging system ("Corey Janecky")
  Thomas Hardy Ale recipe wanted (Troy Downing)
  Alabama Home Brewing ("Charles S. Jackson")


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----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Tue, 15 Mar 1994 7:35:09 -0500 (EST)
From: GONTAREK at FCRFV1.NCIFCRF.GOV
Subject: More ice beer absurdity

Hi, fellow brewers.  While watching TV late Saturday night, I saw what I
thought was a joke, but in fact it turned out to be a real commercial.
It was for "Miller Lite Ice" Beer...I laughed so hard I almost cried!
What's next? I can see it now..."Miller Genuine Dry Ice Draft Reserve".
What do you think about a Dry Ice beer?  "Pop it open, and watch it
sublime" would be a good ad for it.  Or how 'bout "New Miller Dry Ice:
Don't put your lips on the bottle!". 
	Anyway, I thought that I would share this with you.  

See Ya!
Rick Gontarek
gontarek at ncifcrf.gov

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Date: 15 Mar 94 07:58:00 EST
From: "Anderso_A" <Anderso_A at hq.navsea.navy.mil>
Subject: IBU's

The following attachments were included with this message:
__________________________________________________________________
TYPE     : FILE
NAME     : MARK
__________________________________________________________________


Mark G. writes:

>I never, ever stated that wort gravity didn't have an effect.  My
>point was that wort gravity didn't matter *in the boil*, but did
>matter greatly *during fermentation*.  I too, like Glenn, Spencer,
>Rager, most homebrewers and even a lot of the professional beer
>scientists believed that boil gravity did matter.  As Glenn
>alludes to, it seems obvious.  I set out to examine the brewing
>research, not to prove the boil gravity effect wrong, but simply
>to see if Rager's correction factor was right.

               [SNIP, SNIP]

>I seem to have confused everybody with my original posts on this
>subject, so lets be perfectly clear here:

>Wort gravity *does* have an effect.  A big one.  But the gravity
>during the boil is not what matters, it is the gravity during
>fermentation.

     As I see it, your statement means little or no change to an
all-grain brewer but significant change for an extract brewer.  If
I'm brewing an extract Pale Ale with an OG around 1.044, then the
gravity of my wort would be about 1.090.  I then double the volume
with pre-boiled/chilled tap water to lower the OG down to the
desired gravity.  My all-grain beers start at 6 to 7 gallons & boil
down to 5 gallons.  When calculating my IBU's I would add hops
based upon a gravity of 1.090 for the extract beer while the all-
grain beer would get hops based on a 1.040 OG.  The net result
being the extract beer uses more hops than the all-grain beer.  If
I understand correctly what you posted, then my extract beers are
being too heavily hopped.
     Is this correct?  Does anyone else have empirical evidence to
support or counter this?

Thanks,
Andy Anderson 


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Date: Tue, 15 Mar 94 07:18:53 -0500
From: "Jeff M. Michalski, MD" <michalski_jm at rophys.wustl.edu>
Subject: Canning Wort

Recently someone asked about the need for pressure canning wort for
future yeast starters.  The question came up recently at our monthly
meeting of the St. Louis Brews.  We had the good fortune of having
the omniscient Dave Miller in attendance on that particular day!

According to Dave:

Hot water canning (no pressure) will kill all bacterial beer pathogens.
IT WILL NOT KILL WILD YEASTS!

Wild yeasts UNCOMMONLY plague the homebrewer.  For most circumstances, 
pressure canning is "overkill".

If you have a wild yeast infection, it will become apparent in your 
canning jars within a week or so by evidence of active fermentation 
in the wort.

Storage of the canned wort can take place at room temperature.  If you 
have evidence of fermentation in the jars don't use it.  Consider 
pressure canning next time.

Hope this helps.
JEFF M. MICHALSKI
michalski_jm at rophys.wustl.edu


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Date:           Tue, 15 Mar 94 8:27 EST
From: Jim_Merrill at vos.stratus.com
Subject:        3 Tower all grain system

I am attempting to enter the all grain world via the three tower,
gravity fed concept. I'm currently doing partials.

What is the best way to implement a mashing vessel using a 15.5 SS
keg. The three options I am considering are:

     1) False Stainless Steel bottom
     2) A copper ring that sits in the bottom and has small slits in it.
     3) An "Easy Masher" type installation with a screen.

I will be using propane type cookers for a heat source and I am concerned
about scorching. Should I not be adding heat to maintain temp or during
mashout ? How do people do step infusion with a propane cooker ?
What is the maximum BTU rating I should look for when buying a cooker,
what is the minimum.

When using a false bottom, should you try to minimize the area under
the SS plate by using a plate that rests in the bottom curved portion
of the keg? (I have found some 10" SS dinner plates in a camping store
for $4 each)

Any information would be helpful.

TIA

Jim Merrill
Jim_Merrill at vos.stratus.com

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Date: Tue, 15 Mar 1994 08:39:51
From: jdm at cherry-semi.com (Jay Moser)
Subject: Maple Wheat Beer

A fellow homebrewer here in Rhode Island has made a maple wheat beer. He
bought a wheat beer kit (could not remember the specific kit) and only used
3 gal of maple sap. He boiled the wort with about 2 gal of tap water and
after chilling the wort added approximately 3 gal of sterilized but not
reduced maple sap (to make 5 gal). He then fermented as usual. The results
were excellent. 


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Date: Tue, 15 Mar 1994 09:13:51 -0500
From: scott at partech.com (Scott Barrett)
Subject: Lactic Acid from Yogurt Culture?

While eating a carton of yogurt the other day, I noticed that the active
culture was listed as Lactobacillus acidophilus (sp?).  Can this be used to
produce an acid mash in the same manner as L. delbrueckii?  I checked the
yogurt-making entry in the Joy of Cooking and found the temperature
recommendations similar to those in the Zymurgy article.  Am I nuts?

        Yours in brewing,
        Scott Barrett
        scott at partech.com



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Date: Tue, 15 Mar 1994 08:58:43 -0600 (CST)
From: Robert Schultz <Robert.Schultz at usask.ca>
Subject: Calculating AA in home grwon hops

	Can anyone detail the procedure to determine the alpha acid in home
grown hops?
	I am contemplating growing some this year (nice southern exposure,
etc.), but would like to know if it is feasible to calculate the AA on the
quantities one could expect from a few plants.

Rob.
p.s. I won't be planting for a few days yet, as there is still 2 feet of snow
     in my back yard.  Oh the joys of living in the 'frozen north.'

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Saskatoon Berry Brewers, Saskatoon, Saskatchewan
	No Dues, Just Brews ....
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
 Robert.Schultz at usask.ca
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

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Date: Tue, 15 Mar 1994 10:28:32 -0500 (EST)
From: Jim Busch <busch at daacdev1.stx.com>
Subject: Re: Oxygen & open fermenters

Norm writes:
> Subject: Wort Gravity vs. Hop Utilization
> 
> Mark Garetz restates his position that boil gravity does not affect alpha
> acid utilization.  I remain open-minded about it all, but will offer
> something to think about.  Most homebrewers report that when they go to
> full-volume boils, the beer became overhopped.  This was certainly true with
> me, although at the time I didn't know what an IBU was.  I assumed that the
> lower boil gravity (remember that the fermentation gravity didn't change) was
> the reason.  As most things here in the HBD, this is not scientific data, but
> anecdotal evidence.  It is also a small set of data (I know a little about
> the importance of sample size).
> 
> Also, the point about the iso-alpha acids oxidizing in the head has me a
> little confused.  We've been told forever that one of the affects of
> fermentation is to push out the oxygen in the headspace of the fermenter.  I
> wouldn't expect much oxygen to be in the headspace for this process to
> happen.  Am I off?  I could see this happening more in an open fermenter,
> which are still used commercially in places.  Perhaps the research was based
> on this type of fermenter.

I think it is intuitively obvious that the higher OG of a ferment will tend to
"scrub" more hop character out of a beer.  Hop constituants also tend to 
adhere to yeast, so yeast quantity and removal (filtering) effect hop 
character.  Im still on the fence as to the actual boil gravity effects,
but I agree with Norm that the super concentrated extract brewer tends to
have more problems developing the same hop character.

As for open fermenters and oxygen, I say it doesnt matter, provided a 
adequate quantity of healthy yeast is pitched.  Now, I dont let my beer 
sit in the open fermenter long after it is done fermenting,  I rack within
a few days of the removal of the yeast head.  And I dry hop in my primary.

Best,

Jim Busch (looking forward to reading Marks book)



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Date: Tue, 15 Mar 1994 09:35:51 -0600 (CST)
From: Rich Larsen <richl at access1.speedway.net>
Subject: Hop Vines

A Simple question about hops, as the growing season is about upon us.

I planted a vine of Liberty last year.  It attained a whopping 10 feet
with no cones.  I understand this to be normal for the first years growth.
 My question is, how many shoots should I allow to grow this year.  Last
year I only let one go.  email is fine, unless you think the rest of the
world would benefit from it.  

TIA


=> Rich

Rich Larsen (708) 388-3514
The Blind Dog Brewery "HomeBrewPub", Midlothian, IL

         "I never drink... Wine."   Bela Lugosi



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Date: Tue, 15 Mar 94 07:48:02 PST
From: hollen at megatek.com (Dion Hollenbeck)
Subject: Re: converted keg, Metal Fusion burner

>>>>> "KERRY" == KERRY WILSON <HWCEMC2.KWILSON at HW1.CAHWNET.GOV> writes:

KERRY> I have a SS keg convereted kettle.  Does any have any
KERRY> suggestion as to the distance a 170,000 btu burner should be
KERRY> from the bottom of the pot?  3 or 4 inches??  or suggestions to
KERRY> determine correct distance.

KERRY> Metal Fusion of Kenner, LA  sell a 170,000 btu burner for $15.50 FOB
KERRY> Kenner.  1-800-783-3885  The model # for the burner is "WKAf 1".
KERRY> I have no connection to this company except being a happy customer.

If this is the ring burner from the Kamp Kooker stove that they sell,
here is how mine is set up.  The Kamp Kooker has the burner in a wind
shroud about 1" below the top of the shroud, then the grid for setting
pots on which is also about 1" deep.  With my kettle sitting on top of
that, the ring on the bottom of the kettle keeps it another inch or
two further off.  So the bottom line is 3 to 4 inches from the flame
for the lowest portion of the kettle bottom.

A tip for your boiling arrangement.  I have two converted keg kettles,
one for sparge water and one for wort boiling.  Rather that sit the
first kettle on the burner and then have to move it, I made a platform
out of wood, sort of like a workbench without any top and then welded
up two kettle "holders" out of angle iron.  The holders sit on the
wood legs and hold the kettles and I added legs to the burner to make
it sit about 1/2" below the holders so that I can just move the burner
back and forth between the kettles without having to lift the kettles.

I was able to buy the Kamp Kooker stove from Cabela's Sporting
Outfitters for $49.  Thay have an 800 number, but I don't have it with
me.


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Date: Tue, 15 Mar 1994 07:53:13 +0800
From: bjones at novax.llnl.gov (Bob Jones)
Subject: AHA funding for projects?


>It seems to me the AHA could fund work like this.  The cash outlay would
>be minimal and the results could be very beneficial.  Maybe they could
>take time out from printing Charlie Papazian masks and "I wish this were
>my homebrew" coffee mugs.  Naah, what was I thinking?
>
>Joel Birkeland
>Motorola SPS

I proposed that very thing about 2 years ago. It all started over a
discussion with George Fix about increasing the technical content of the
conference and the magazine led him suggesting this to the AHA board of
directors. As far as I can tell, nothing ever came of the idea. With Brewing
Techniques now the mag for technical info and Zymurgy firmly settled into
its nich, I don't think you'll see anything from the AHA.

Now as for moneys to do this type of research? It is out there. You do need
to write a proposal and submit it to some of the mega breweries. They have
quite a large amount of money for basic research I'm told. Now you got the
money, so you go out and find a university with some equipment and a grad
student who likes beer. Now all you need is the time! Thats the hard part to
come by.


Bob Jones
bjones at novax.llnl.gov



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Date: Tue, 15 Mar 94 11:04:58 EST
From: taylor at e5sf.hweng.syr.ge.com (taylor)
Subject: RE: extract recipes copies for popular beers

In yesterdays digest I should have mentioned that all these recipes were
for a 60 minute boil.....I guess there was some questions about that.
Please make the changes to you recipes......Todd

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Date: Tue, 15 Mar 1994 09:04:14 -0700 (MST)
From: Brian Klimowski <klimowski at marten.UWYO.EDU>
Subject: Fermentation _too_ fast?  Problem?


I brewed up my 2nd batch of beer last Sunday:  Papazian's
"Vagabond Gingered Ale".  Everything wend smoothly, and the
brew was fermenting nicely initially:

             at 5 hours:  60 bubbles/min
             at 15 hours: 90 bubbles/min

Then, everything came to a screeching halt...

             at 22 hours:  .5 bubbles/min
             at 24 hours:  .5 bubbles/min
             at 32 hours:  no bubbles seen after 5 min of watching.

I'm concerned that there may be a problem here...I expected the 
fermentation to last considerably longer.  Is there any justification
for worry here? 

I'm fermenting in a well-sealed plastic bucket, at 70 deg.  I pitched the
(dry) yeast directly onto the cooled wort.  Should I re-pitch?  Unfortunately,
I don't have a hydrometer yet so those readings are not available.

Somewhat concerned in Laramie,
   
Brian A. Klimowski


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Date: 15 Mar 1994 08:32:09 U
From: "Palmer.John" <palmer at ssdgwy.mdc.com>
Subject: Re: First Batch Paranoia, PsuedoEuroNewbieWannabe

Hello New Brewers, and those considering it.

For David, who is currently enjoying the agonizing suspense of his first batch,
Relax, grab some microwave popcorn and watch Mystery Science Theatre 3000. I
doubt your fermentation is hung at 1.020. Wait a total of 2 weeks before you
bottle it so you can be sure its done fermenting. A hydrometer is not going to
help you that much when doing all extract, and opening up the fermenter to take
readings is not a good idea. Wait and see what it is when you bottle. Its your
first batch, you can do even better next time, right?

The stuff stuck on the Fermenter sides is the protein ring (and some yeast),
leave it alone, do Not stir your beer at this point. If the beer stays at 20
when you bottle, all that means is that it will be a bit sweet with less
alcohol. Not a big deal.
***
For Tad, the answer is Yes, You Can. For recipes, see those posted along with
your post in yesterdays HBD 1372.  Start-up costs can range from 50-100 dollars
depending on what equipment you buy. Post your location next time and solicit
email from other brewers in your area for brewshops or nearby mail order.
***
Remember, there is a considerable quantity of information available on Brewing
on the Homebrew archive at Sierra.stanford.edu  In fact, that is where my How
to Brew Your First Beer document now resides, and it contains a lot of helpful
info on the brewing processes, equipment, terms and troubleshooting.  If you
don't have FTP capability or Gopher, you can email me for a copy, just use
Specification as the Subject.
John Palmer MDA-SSD M&P palmer#d#john at ssdgwy.mdc.com

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Date: Tue, 15 Mar 1994 10:44:17 -0600 (MDT)
From: COYOTE <SLK6P at cc.usu.edu>
Subject: Hop Planting/ Capper Buster/ Storing Wort

RE:  Hop planting ideas.  axed by Rick Dante   rdante at ucsd.edu

Why not try them all!  :)

I'd vote for the south side. The more sun- the better- with hops.
You really don't need some huge big heavy pole, especially  if you are
right next to something big like a house!

I simply attached fairly heavy hooks to the side of the house just
below the roof line.  There is a pretty high edge I can attach to.
The lowest part was only 15 feet, and the hops climbed much higher!
I had to attach more line higher up!  Anymore and the cascade would have
had to climb the electric wires!  (NOT recommended!!!!)

I used the rough hemp type twine. It has lots of rough edges that the
hops can cling well to. It is heavy enough to take plenty of weight.
The house is nice and white, so they get plenty of "reflected" light.
It get's quite warm, but as long as they are well watered they don't seem
to mind.  They will also serve to shade the house- and keep things cooler.

NOTE: They've only had one year so far. I plan to run more stringers this 
year.  I have sprouts poking their way up now. Anyone ever try a "wall of
water" on their hops!  The sprouts do taste good! (oops I knocked a couple
off from excessive fondling!   :(       )

A fellow brewer/grower did something like Rick described.
He put in two 12 foot posts and ran a trellis between them.
He has a small shed (8ft), and started vines up it, then ran across 
stringers to the top of the large posts. The hops will go where you 
want them.  They are very trainable. (more than my dogs!)

SOIL PREPARATION:  Something else to consider is what the condition
of the soil in the different locations is.  But regardless I would
recommend getting a bag of steer manure, and some fine bark, and peat moss.

Mix the manure in well, deep down. Mix peat moss in the upper portion,
plant rhizomes just below the peat layer, then layer bark on top. U can
use coarser bark farther out from the growing portion of the mound.
You'd have to examine the quality of your soil before deciding the best
treatment. You might even want to add some sand to aid drainage, depends
on you soil! 

The high school put up a nice 6 ft chainlink fence on the east side of
my house. Sits a foot higher than my ground level. I plan to stick some 
rhizomes in there too.  Just let them go wild on the fence. I figure the 
more mounds the better!  I doubt the high school kids would bother them,
now- if they were grapes, or hop cousins, might be a dif. story!

***
>RE:  Bottle busting from capper

*   I've had this problem -but mostly with odd shaped bottles using
an Italien wing capper.  Some bottles- like Michelob don't fit.
Fat necks.  They get in the way.

My cheap- bench capper won't bust a bottle unless it's set at the 
wrong height and REALLY forced!  The wing capper is much more likely
to find a fault in a bottle. Overall I think the bench capper is more
capable of capping dif. bottles, but the wing capper is easier/quicker to
use as long at it'll fit the bottles, no "resetting" of heights- as with
the bench capper.

***
Jim Grady   grady at hp-mpg.an.hp.com  sed:

Canning wort for use in starters:
 1. "Hot water" canning should be sufficient. 
 2. ...not need to be refrigerated..Kept the jars...in the basement.. a year

*   My 2c worth:  Jim, if it worked, great.  My suggestion (as a personal
rule of thumb) would be if you can autoclave/pressure cook the starters
then they can be stored warmer (cooler is still better!), but if they are
just "Hot water" canned you might be well advised to keep them refrigerated.

Depends on how long you plan to store them too.  If you're talking weeks;
no problem, months; eh- probably ok,  YearS...make starters more often!

As an point of reference:  Biology labs working with cell cultures generally
store media in cold rooms. Small amounts might be stored on a lab shelf
for shorter periods of time.  Solutions that are autoclaved and sealed-
are considered sterile until open.  But a visual check can tell if 
contamination has occured. Cloudiness- sediment are signs. 

Something like culture plates (petri dishes) definitely should be stored
cold. Even then, over a long time - some contamination is likely to
occur, especially with the rich kind of media our fungi like!  
Plates are much more open to potential contamination than screw cap jars,
or sealed mason jars!

Just one spuds opinion.  Take it or leave it. 
Bottom line: If it works-  do it!	

    |\
  |\| \/|   \-\-\-  John (The Coyote) Wyllie   SLK6P at cc.usu.edu  -/-/-/
   \    |      
    ----

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Date: Tue, 15 Mar 94 13:32:09 EST
From: Lee=A.=Menegoni at nectech.com
Subject: Hop utalization / Canning Wort 

Re:  Hop utilization in full gravity boils / canning 

I found my utilization increased when I went to full gravity, 6 gallon, 
boils using the Cajun Kooker, aka jet engine, from full gravity, 4 gallon, 
boils on the electric stove.  I suspect that the more vigorous boil from 
the high BTU kooker was the factor in extracting more bitterness.

RE: canning wort 

I use two pots, one with water, jars and lids the other filled with wort.
I boil the wort and the pot full of jars and lids.
After the wort has boiled for about 10 minutes I remove jars from the 
boiling water and fill them with wort and place a lid over them.
I then replace the wort filled covered jars in the boiling water and 
boil another 10 minutes.  I then tighten the lids and let the jars cool.
I store them in unrefridgerated.  By boiling the wort and then transfering
them to the sanitized jars I speed the procees up.

  


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Date: Tue, 15 Mar 94 10:34:37 PST
From: C.W. Jones (Christopher) <cwjones at microsoft.com>
Subject: FAQ: Stuck fermentation...

A quick question.  I am doing a German WeiseBeer as per the recipe in 
The Complete Guide to Home Brewing.

I just took the SG of it last night and it is at 1.49 (it will have 
been two weeks on Wednesday).  Unfortunately, I spaced taking the SG 
when I first pitched, so I don't have anything to compare it to (other 
than the book's saying that it's starting SG should be between 
 .43-.50).  It isn't that it's not fermenting, as it has been bubbling 
away all through the last two weeks.

Also, I tasted the sample I withdrew, and it tasted more like Apple 
Cider than beer (very sweet).

Anyone else have a similar experience? Advice? Condolences?

     *       	*******************************************
    /|\         *                                         *
   / | \        *         cwjones at microsoft.com           *
  <======>      *        "I'd rather be sailing"          *
~~~~~\\~~~~~    *                                         *
                *******************************************

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Date: Tue, 15 Mar 94 14:39:03 EST
From: Spencer.W.Thomas at med.umich.edu
Subject: Stirring and SG measurements

I thought that low OG measurements from not stirring were only a
problem with partial boils in extract brewing.  As an all-grainer, I
figured I was immune.  Well, the other night, I found out differently.

I was making an experimental Belgian Wit beer using flour instead of
raw wheat berries (pre-ground, doncha know?)  As you might expect, the
sparge was extreeeeemely slow (about 1ml/sec, or about 1 gallon/hour).

Here's the picture: I've got a plastic tube running from the spigot on
the lauter tun down into a pot on the floor that is collecting the
run-off.  At one point, I noticed that the tubing had sort of curled
up so that the outlet was right at the top of the liquid in the pot.
I tried to push it back down, but that's where it wanted to be.

Eventually the sparge finished (I did manage it to make it go a little
faster towards the end) when I had collected about 3 gallons (my
target volume for this test batch).  I took a sample by dipping the
hydrometer tube into the pot, and measured it.  1.030.  What!?  I was
aiming for 1.045!  Hmm....  Stir.... Take another sample.  1.046.
Whew!

I guess what happened was that the wort coming out late in the
sparge, near the top of the liquid in the pot, just stayed there, and
didn't mix with the heavier wort below.  I took my sample from the
top...


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Date: Tue, 15 Mar 94 14:45:19 EST
From: Spencer.W.Thomas at med.umich.edu
Subject: What have I brewed??

Re: beer made with Chimay yeast, wheat & malt extract.

You made a unique beer, just like many Belgian brewers do.  Who needs
styles?

A friend recently returned from Belgium with this story:  He was
shopping for beers he couldn't get here in the US.  He picks up a
bottle of "Roman", and asks the clerk "What kind of beer is this?"
The clerk, pointing at the label, says "It's Roman."  Friend says,
"No, I mean, what style is it?"  Clerk, pointing at label, says, more
forcefully, "Roman!"  This was not a unique occurrence.  Friend
eventually gets the message, and stops asking.

=S

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Date:     Tue, 15 Mar 94 15:04 EST
From: <GNT_TOX_%ALLOY.BITNET at PUCC.PRINCETON.EDU>
Subject:  Starter culture

Someone mentioned a while back about leaving a starter culture open
and seeing what happened.  Well, I did just that.  A starter has been
sitting open in my kitchen for 7 days now, and not a lick of
fermentation of any kind.  I smelled the stuff.  It still smells like
wort.  I'm going to smack an airlock on tommorow and see if anything
else is happening.  Oh yeah, it tastes like wort also.  Conclusion:
Wort is not as easy to infect as you might believe.  True, stuff will
grow in it, but the infecting agents obviously arent hanging around
kitchen air just waiting to fall into wort.

To conclude my study, I'm going to bring some Nutrient Agar plates
home and leave them on the counter and see what grows.

BTW: The starters grow yeast with no trouble.

Andy Pastuszak
Philadelphia, PA
INTERNET: GNT_TOX_%ALLOY.BITNET at PUCC.PRINCETON.EDU
BITNET:   GNT_TOX_ at ALLOY.BITNET


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Date: Tue, 15 Mar 1994 15:43:15 -0500
From: rprice at cbmse.nrl.navy.mil
Subject:  Whiff of Banana

In Digest #1372 MacDonald writes about a whiff of Banana.

Typically the banana odor you describe is amyl acetate, and not often
among the alcoholic beverage/Fermentation products you find.  

Fermentation Products (common)
Acetaldehyde, methanol, propanol, acetone, methyl acetate, ethanol
isobutanol, butanol, isopropanol, ethyl acetate (?), diacetal, n-propanol,
isopentanal, ethyl propionate, propyl acetate, isobutanol, acetol, butyric
acid, isobutyric acid, henanol, propionic acid, fufural, isoamyl acetate (Ah
!! thats it), Pentanol, acetic acid, 1 and 2 methylparaben, butyl acetate,
ethyl butyrate, isoamylalcohol etc. etc. etc., I am sure Jim Fix has more.

Perhaps an infected wort, but I do think I would look elsewhere, like
excessive temps, etc. first.  

For you information I had purchased a bit of the London Ale yeast and
noticed my 1 qt. starter had a similar growth on the sides and a skim on
the top of the jug.  All was super clean, and I suspect it is a contaminant
within the culture itself.  I have a sample of the contaminant but don't
have the time to do the analysis.  

Make sure you clean everything, and try a new starter.  I have had
excellent luck either begging breweries or brewpubs that have brews I
like for yeast.  Most are good guys and help out.  A few are less than
nice but there are ways to leave with what one wants anyway.  Ah! that
new clean white hankie.

Cheers !



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Date: 15 Mar 94 21:03:00 GMT
From: korz at iepubj.att.com (Algis R Korzonas +1 708 979 8583)
Subject: iodophor use/Sour Belgians/low OG/Dayton thermostat

Fudge writes:
>When I keg, I use a sterilant that does not need a rinse, it is iodine based,
>and after I scrub it out with hot water, I fill the keg up with the
>sterilant.  Then I cap the keg, and after waiting at least ten minutes for
>the sterilization to take place, I drive the sterilant out with CO2.  Then I
>open the keg to rack, and I am racking into a CO2 environment, no

Yes, but if you read the instructions on the iodophor, you will probably
notice that the iodophor solution does not need to be rinsed if the item
to be sanitized is allowed to *air dry*.  I don't think there's a fear
that you will get sick from this and since I'm not a chemist, I can't say
where the iodine would "go" as the solution dries (I don't think that
iodine is very volatile, or is it?).  If you do decide that you want to
rinse, but your water is not sanitary, you could rinse with cheap beer.

********
Mark writes:
>I am one of the crazy ones who wants to start making belgian ales.  My
>question is: Is there a place I can purchace lactobacillus (lactic acid
>bacteria) or do I need to create it by souring lactose?
>The reason I am asking is that I am very interested in creating a
>Flander's Brown or Belgian Red which could use the introduction of
>lactic acid during a secondary fermentation.  I could be incorrect on
>this though.  Any help or suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

Various lactic acid-producing bacteria will sour beer, not just lactobacillus.
I don't know of any commercial source for lactobacillus at this time, but
you can buy Pediococcus from various sources -- ask your retailer to order
you some.  I made what has turned out to be a very sour beer (after a year
and a half) by using just Pedio and no Lacto.  Both pedio and lacto will
eat most of the sugars in wort -- it doesn't just have to be lactose.  It
just so happens that they will also eat lactose (whereas most yeast won't)
which is why you need to be very careful with sanitation if you add lactose
to a brew.  Some brewers have reported success with adding Lactic Acid,
but the result was reported to be rather one-dimensional until the beer
matured for a while.

********
GNT_TOX writes:
>one without a starter) and I did the Papzian, boil all malt in 1 1/2
>gallons and dilute down method.
>
>Well, I used one can of M&F Wheat and a bag of Northwestern Weizen,
>made five gallons.  My O.G. was 1.030.  It seems low.  Sholdn't I have
>an O.G. of around 1.046?  What are the chances I didn't stir the stuff
>good enough to get it all dissolved?

99%  You probably did not mix well enough when you added the hot wort to
the cooler water and most of the gravity was at the bottom.  Don't worry,
the yeast will stir things up...

**********
>I use a Dayton "SPDT temperature control" model 2E399 attached to a 23
>cu ft chest freezer.  It works great. My freezer stays within 2 degrees.
>It is not as inexpensive as a air stat but it was my understanding that
>an air stat will not work on a freezer.

It will, but the problem is that the Hunter Air Stat is no longer manufactured.
If you find one, it's just luck.

>The infomation you will need to set it up. You will need wire and plugs.
>Set freezer control to coldest. Tie the green (ground) together. Tie the white
>together.  The black from outlet to the red screw. The black from freezer to
>the white screw.  Ensure the the house wiring is correct for netural and hot.

Actually, it is immaterial what temperature you set the freezer control at
as long as it is lower than your replacement thermostat setting, which, in
the case of a freezer, will be true at any setting related to fermenting/
lagering.

Al.

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Date: 15 Mar 94 21:27:00 GMT
From: korz at iepubj.att.com (Algis R Korzonas +1 708 979 8583)
Subject: hop utilization/oxidized kraeusen... NOT

Norm writes:
>Mark Garetz restates his position that boil gravity does not affect alpha
>acid utilization.  I remain open-minded about it all, but will offer
>something to think about.  Most homebrewers report that when they go to
>full-volume boils, the beer became overhopped.  This was certainly true with
>me, although at the time I didn't know what an IBU was.  I assumed that the
>lower boil gravity (remember that the fermentation gravity didn't change) was
>the reason. <snip>

My experience mirrors Norm's.  I too believe that increased boil gravity
reduces utilization.  The reason I think there is no data out there from 
the brewing researchers is because the big breweries don't really care 
about this information.  They formulate recipes and adjust hop usage based
upon IBU tests on the finished product.  I know that Anheuser-Busch buys
hops in incredibly large amounts and then they store them sometimes for
two or more years before use.  I'm sure they test the hops for %AA
periodically (especially when going to a new lot), but the final adjustments
probably come from bitterness measurements in the final product.

>Also, the point about the iso-alpha acids oxidizing in the head has me a
>little confused.  We've been told forever that one of the affects of
>fermentation is to push out the oxygen in the headspace of the fermenter.  I
>wouldn't expect much oxygen to be in the headspace for this process to
>happen.  Am I off?  I could see this happening more in an open fermenter,
>which are still used commercially in places.  Perhaps the research was based
>on this type of fermenter.

Don't be confused Norm -- Mark was wrong in saying that oxidation of
kraeusen components makes them insoluble.  Kraeusen is indeed bitter and,
for the most part, insoluble in water, beer and alcohol, even in closed
fermenters where it does not have the opportunity to oxidize, just as you 
noted.

I too am trying to keep an open mind on the kettle utilization issue, but
my experience leads me to believe otherwise.  You can surround your
fermenter with copies of the Proceedings of the ASBC Conferences, you
can wave a copy of DeKlerck over your kettle, you can read every article
published by the MBAA and none if it will guarantee that the beer you make
is drinkable, let alone good.  Just because the literature doesn't say it
is so, doesn't mean that it can't be so.  I put a lot more weight on my
experience than I do on my reading (except the HBD -- because it is mostly
a collection of experiences) when it comes to making decisions about my
recipes and procedures.  If my gut feeling says one thing and Hough et. al.
say something else, then I go with my gut feeling and take good notes.
Brewing is both an art and a science.  Science can sometimes help explain
why the art works, but it can't replace it.  The final proof is in the
quality of the beer you make and if you are happy with it.  You can't
learn to be a great brewer from a book... you have to roll up your sleeves.

Al.

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Date: Tue, 15 Mar 94 16:30:43 EST
From: budinski1 at aol.com
Subject: Re: #1(2) Homebrew Digest #13...

cancel please

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Date: Tue, 15 Mar 94 13:51:45 -0800
From: Steve Christiansen <steven at sequent.com>
Subject: Re:  Broken bottle when capping!

> Well, I was bottling my beer this weekend, and on the third to last
> bottle, the neck broke in my capper!  I've never experienced this
> before - has anyone else out there?

Yes, I've broken a few no-refill bottles with my double-lever capper.
It hasn't happened often since I made two improvements:

1. I keep the capper oiled.  The less force needed to work it, the less
chance of breaking a bottle.

2. I'm careful not to torque the handles.  In other words, I use a motion
like pushing something straight into the ground, instead of a motion like
breaking a stick in half.  It may be all in my head, but it seems to help.

> Also, I refuse to get worried when I think to myself "if this bottle
> can't stand the force of my capper, will it withstand the force of
> carbonation?" - but the thought does continue to pop up!

Well this is just anecdotal evidence, but I've been brewing for several
years now, I've broken several bottles with my capper, but I've never
had a bottle bomb, even with a couple of over-carbonated batches.
- --
Steve Christiansen
Beaverton, OR
steven at sequent.com

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Date: Tue, 15 Mar 1994 16:10:10 -0800 (CST)
From: Lee Bertagnolli <bertagno at eagle.sangamon.edu>
Subject: Finny thingies for cooling hot wort 


In HBD 1371, Ronald Dwelle sez (in regards to his interesting brewpub tour):
>       And if anyone can figure out how to make a finny-wort-cooler 
>    on the cheap, let me know. 

This thing is called a heat-exchanger, and is basically a set of embossed
SS plates clamped together like a big accordian.  The hot wort and cold
water are channeled between alternating plates from the top, and cold
wort and hot water come out the bottom.  The whole thing comes apart for
easy cleaning of the individual plates.  The plates are hung from a pipe
across the top, like a rack of suits at the clothing store.

When I was a wee lad, my family used to run a creamery, and had one of
these gizmos.  It was huge (over 6' tall).  It would take boiling hot
pasteurized milk and make it ice cold for bottling.  When my father 
decided to get out of the business (in the late sixties), he sold it
(and several huge SS tanks, walk-in coolers, pumps, pipes, etc.) for
scrap.  What I would give to have some of that equipment now...

It would certainly be a challenge to make one of these cheaply.
****************************************************************************
*  Lee Bertagnolli                                  bertagno at sangamon.edu  *
*  Sangamon State University     "Seville der dago, towsin bus essinarow." *
*  Springfield, Illinois   "Nojo, demmit trux, summit cowsin, summit dux!" *
****************************************************************************

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Date: Tue, 15 Mar 1994 17:20:32 -0500
From: Kelvin Kapteyn <kelvink at mtu.edu>
Subject: RE: Floating Thermometers in HBD #1372

Just to be clear on this Paul, I was one of the posters discussing making
a floating thermometer.  I already own one of the floating thermometers
like you mention.  I don't use it because I don't like to have to grab it
to make it turn the right direction so I can read it.  I also have to 
tilt it so I can line up the numbers.  With the margarine bowl - homemade
version we discussed, I can glance at my accurate and fast responding
dial thermometer and read it without messing with it.  Probably not
enough of an improvment to revolutionize the homebrewing community, but
I like it.  

 -Kelvin      (kelvink at mtu.edu)

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Date: Tue, 15 Mar 94 15:07:52 PST
From: "Joe Stone" <JSTONE at SJEVM5.VNET.IBM.COM>
Subject: Recirculating Pumps

  I need some information on recirculating pumps.  What type of pump
should I use?  Where can I buy one?  How much should it cost?  Please
email me directly.  I don't want to waste bandwidth.

Joe

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Date: 15 Mar 94 18:31:37 EST
From: Steve Daniel <71161.2610 at CompuServe.COM>
Subject: Hop Utilization vs. S.G.

Just my two cents worth on the hop utilization thing.  What some folks fail
to take into account when they use the argument, "My beers got more bitter
when I went to a full-wort boil, so the lower gravity must increase hop
utilization" is that two variables changed in the process.  Along with a
decreased gravity, the total liquid volume went up too.  Since hop acid
isomerization is an equilibrium reaction, volume (dilution) will definitely
have a positive effect on utilization, and wort gravity may therefore play
little or no part in the process.  Has anybody done two same-volume boils,
one at a low gravity and one at a high gravity, and then had the iso-alpha
acid assayed?  That would be the only way to tell.
 
Steve "I'm glad we don't get all the government we pay for" Daniel



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Date: Tue, 15 Mar 94 19:31:25 CST  
From: "Corey Janecky" <cjanecky at facstaff.wisc.edu>
Subject: Home kegging system

Ive been brewing for about a year now and I am contemplating purchasing a
home kegging system.  How much can I expect to have to spend?  Any
suggestions on the best deal via mail order?  I don't care if its a new
system or used.  Thanks for the help.
 -WADE

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Date: Mon, 7 Mar 94 15:35:31 EST
From: downing at GRAPHICS.CS.NYU.EDU (Troy Downing)
Subject: Thomas Hardy Ale recipe wanted

I was in a local pub the other night and tried their "extremely rare" as
they put it "Thomas Hardy Ale". It was a light amber, somewhat sweet,
Barley wine type beer with a strong smell of molasses. If anyone out
there has an all grain recipe that approximates this ale, I'd like to
hear from you.

Thanks,

+---------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Troy Downing                                       (212) 998-5753 (voice) |
| New York University                                (212) 995-4320 (FAX)   |
| 34 Stuyvesant Street, 3rd Floor                                           |
| New York, NY 10003                                 downing at cs.nyu.edu     |
+---------------------------------------------------------------------------+


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Date:     Tue, 15 Mar 94 21:21:37 CST
From: "Charles S. Jackson" <sjackson at ftmcclln-amedd.army.mil>
Subject:  Alabama Home Brewing

HELP!!! (He says in a loud and paniced voice)

     Just read in the Birmingham paper that it is ILLEGAL to brew beer in 
Alabama, (and Oklahoma nad Utah - just to make a few other folks sweat a bit).
I had been lead to believe that the changes in federal law during the Carter 
administration made it legal in all 50.  Seems as if I was lead astray.  The 
tone of the article was such that one could easily infer that the ABC folks 
were not going to be busting any doors to search for carboys but htey did say 
it was illegal to brew or possess homebrew - now how is a guy supposed to 
relax?

     With any luck I will not be living here after summer 95 (and you can bet I
won't be looking to relocate into Oklahoma or Utah) but what can be done in the
interim?  How can there be homebrew stores here if the law prohibits the 
process?  I must say I am a bit paranoid  -  a feeling not enjoyedfor MANY 
years but still just as unpleasant.

     Any advise from the old hands out there?

A neophyte with his first batch in the bottles for just 2 weeks
************************************************************
\ Charles (Steve) Jackson           \ Foolish consistencies \
 \ sjackson at ftmcclln-amedd.army.mil  \ are the hobgoblins of \
  \ 73171.2135 at compuserve.com         \ little minds          \
   ************************************************************
  / The views expressed herein are those of the author,       /
 / just the author and nobody but the author, so help me.    /
/ You see nobody else would want them.  (c) 1996            /
************************************************************

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End of HOMEBREW Digest #1373, 03/16/94