FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Rob Gardner, Digest Janitor


Contents:
  Hop utilization (Keith MacNeal  18-Mar-1994 1222)
  wholesale suppliers (Michael Jorgenson 5-5891)
  IBUs (again!) (GNT_TOX_)
  keg pressure (Bart Thielges)
  2 stage ferment/bananas/lauter equipment (Jeff Benjamin)
  Re: False Bottom Museum (Jeff Berton)
  lists ("Pete Brauer 312/915-6157"                 )
  Call for Judges, AHA NHC Denver (Steve Dempsey)
  Request for Extract Recipes (msh)
  A new brewery for Houston (George J Fix)
  Party Pigs and The Carbonator (Sean Rooney)
  Glass airlocks, canning wort (Eric Wade)
  Kegging (Jonathan Peakall)
  WINE CLARIFIERS (aaron.banerjee)
  Specialty Grains / Lakefront ("Robert H. Reed")
  Hop Utilization Tests (Bob Guerin)
  Bottle Sanitation (Christopher Alan Strickland)
  Re: De-lidding SS Kegs (Larry Barello)
  Re: False Bottom Museum (Larry Barello)
  Re:Dry Malt Priming (katanka)
  Re: mail order hops (John Brawley)
  first extract/lager (Gregg Tennefoss)
  Cincinnati NHC First Round (WESTEMEIER)
  Bad Post (Gregg Tennefoss)
  How 'bout a new digest? (evanms)
  Manifold vs Zap-Pap (Domenick Venezia)
  Blackberry Stout (Christopher Alan Strickland)
  Thermometer calibration/hop rhizome sources/beer festival/etc (Marc L. Goldfarb)
  COPPER MANIFOLDS (Jack Schmidling)
  one large beer (Davis)
  Killian's Red Clone (Brian J. Cecil)
  Mea Culpa (Mark Garetz)


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----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Fri, 18 Mar 94 12:33:11 EST
From: Keith MacNeal 18-Mar-1994 1222 <macneal at pate.enet.dec.com>
Subject: Hop utilization

Here were some thoughts on hop utilization and wort gravity that I sent to 
Norm.  The discussion is getting lively so I thought I'd chime in as well.  My 
response to Norm was similar to the post by Mark Garetz on boil volume, but 
looking at it from a slightly different angle:

Norm,

I saw your post about increased bitterness and an apparent relationship to
full boils.  Keep in mind that not only has the SG of the wort changed by
going to full boil, but also the volume of the wort has changed.  Chemically/
thermodynamically speaking, it makes sense that more bitterness (aka iso-alpha
acids) can be extracted in a greater volume -- much the same way you can
dissolve more sugar into a pot of coffee than you can in a mug of coffee.

That's not to say that SG doesn't have an effect.  To me it seems it should,
but I'm too busy playing with other things in my brewing to worry about this
one as yet.

Keith MacNeal


In Homebrew Digest #1375 (March 18, 1994), gummitch at teleport.com (Jeff Frane) 
writes:

>Jim Busch wrote:
>> 
>> I think it is intuitively obvious that the higher OG of a ferment will tend 
>> "scrub" more hop character out of a beer.  Hop constituants also tend to 
>> adhere to yeast, so yeast quantity and removal (filtering) effect hop 
>> character.  Im still on the fence as to the actual boil gravity effects,
>> but I agree with Norm that the super concentrated extract brewer tends to
>> have more problems developing the same hop character.
>> 

>I don't know how "intuitive" it is, Jim.  What is there about a
>high-gravity ferment that would "scrub" hop character?  

To me, it would be that the increased amount of fermentables means an 
increased amount of CO2 being produced.  More CO2 means more scrubbing.

>I'm under the distinct impression (reached during a conversation with
>the Blitz-Weinhard brewmaster) that most large commercial breweries
>utilize high-gravity brewing -- something that would account for the
>research into hop utilization during fermentation.  The brewery process
>calls for watering the beer down *after* fermentation -- unlike the
>homebrewer who more likely waters the wort down *before* fermentation.

But the extract homebrewer is most certainly watering the wort down *after* 
fermentation.  Well, at least those who do partial boils.

>It's probably not the same thing, but: I have doubled batches from 5
>gallons to 10 without doing anything but doubling the bittering hops --
>and dilution didn't seem to be a factor.  For many extract homebrewers,
>I'd suspect the ratio isn't any higher: 3 gallons concentrated wort up
>to 6 gallons or so of all-grain wort.  

It's definately not the same thing.  You have doubled your batch size from 5
gallons to 10 gallons, therefore you have appropriately doubled your hops. The
extract brewer is adding enough hops to the kettle to hop 5 gallons while only
boiling 2 or 3 gallons.   He/she is not doubling the batch size.

Keith MacNeal
Digital Equipment Corp.
Hudson, MA


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Date: Fri, 18 Mar 94 11:53:49 CST
From: jorgen at orson.mayo.EDU (Michael Jorgenson 5-5891)
Subject: wholesale suppliers

I am sending this out on behalf of a good friend who does'nt happen to
have Email access:
	"Please Please Please Please Please Please Please Please 
	Does anyone have any names of wholesale beer making supply 
distributers ? I have been making small brews for a number of years now, 
and have been suddenly blessed with the opportunity of opening a small brew
pub \ beer making supply store.
 We'd like to be able to offer 3-4 varieties on tap in the pub, and in the
offer lessons in brewing, allowing students to rent some of the materials 
(ss pots, carboys, etc...) until they wish to purchase their own.
	Any suggestions ??? We would be setting up in the River Falls Wi.
area. Any & all comments appreciated.
thanks"
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        at  at  at  at  at                                     at  at  at  at  at  at  at  at  at  at  at  at  at  at  at  at  at  at  at  at  at  at  at  at  at  at  at 
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   no beer.                                   at  at          at  at                at   
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*********************************************** at  at  at  at  at  at  at  at ********************
***************************************************************************

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Date:     Fri, 18 Mar 94 12:50 EST
From: <GNT_TOX_%ALLOY.BITNET at PUCC.PRINCETON.EDU>
Subject:  IBUs (again!)

Well, I was rechecking my IBU equations for my wheat beer.  According
to Papazian, a weizenbier is supposed to have between 8-14 IBU.  So, I
did the following boil: 0.70 oz. of Northern Brewers (6.8%) for 60
minutes and 1 oz. of Hallertauer (1.5%) for 15 minutes.  I assumed a
20% utilization since I am doing the concentrated/dilute in the
fermentor method.  My numbers came pretty close.  I was at 14-15.
Wells I loaded up SUDSW and plugged the numbers in the IBU calculator,
and came up with 31.6 IBUs!  Wow!  Now, who's off here?


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Date: Fri, 18 Mar 94 09:51:48 PST
From: hpfcla.fc.hp.com!relay.hp.com!daver!nexgen!bart (Bart Thielges)
Subject: keg pressure

William Nichols relates problems with force carbonation of kegs.  I don't
have exact answers for proper PSIs, but I do have the following advice :

"Store high, Serve low"

That is, you need to lower the pressure for serving.  Afterwards, the keg
should be pumped up to preserve carbonation.  I've found that 5 PSI
is plenty high for serving, but is too low for storage.  This isn't a 
problem if you use the keg for a party.  Its more of a problem if you want 
to have a pint after dinner each evening.  

I base this advice on the behavior of my Cornelius keg.  My theory is 
that these kegs were meant to dispense soda syrup and thus were not 
designed to minimize CO2 wrenching turbulence.  If you've ever seen the
inside of a Sankey keg, you will notice that the take up tube is one
inch or so in diameter.  This is huge compared to the Corny's narrow
dip tube.

- ------------------------

On a completley different topic : As I was preparing to bottle my last
two batches, I decided that it was time again to disassemble and clean
the faucet on my bottling bucket.  It is a little tricky to take that
faucet apart, but it does indeed disassemble into five pieces.  I was
shocked to find a blob of old beer stuck to the inside of one piece.
There was something growing on it that definately was not Wyeast German
Ale!  For now on, I'm going to inspect that thing EVERY TIME !

Bart	bart at nexgen.com

Brewing equipment destroyed since last message : 0

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Date: Fri, 18 Mar 94 10:57:33 MST
From: Jeff Benjamin <benji at hpfcbug.fc.hp.com>
Subject: 2 stage ferment/bananas/lauter equipment

Shawn M Landry <smlandry at christa.unh.edu> asks:
> Can anyone convince me why I should use a double stage fermentation 
> process?

Well, I won't try to convince you, since I often do single-stage ferments
myself, but I will give you a reason for a 2-stage fermentation:  your
beer will end up much clearer and have much less sediment in the bottom
of the bottles or your keg.  There are arguments as to whether leaving
the yeast on the trub affects the taste of the finished beer, but I'll
let others make those arguments. :-)

rprice at cbmse.nrl.navy.mil replies to a query about banana esters:
> Typically the banana odor you describe is amyl acetate, and not often
> among the alcoholic beverage/Fermentation products you find.

but then lists isoamyl acetate among other common fermentation products.
Maybe you meant to say "and *often* among...", although from my
experience it is not as common as other esters like diacetyl and various
sulfur compounds.  The canonical example of yeast which exhibits high
amyl acetate production is Chimay trappist yeast (or the similar WYeast
Belgian strain).  In some styles, like trappist ales, some banana ester
is a desired characteristic.

arf at mcs.com (Jack Schmidling) writes:
> The copper pipe manifold is an alternative but is grossly complicated and
> difficult to build compared to the em and I don't know of any commercially
> available nor why one would want one.

Not to argue with you, Jack :-), but I wouldn't call a copper manifold
setup "grossly complicated and difficult to build".  In actual operation
is may be no better than an em, but it takes 30 minutes with a hacksaw
or tubing cutter to build a manifold.  And a manifold may not be
commercially available, but I do know of a commercial brewery that uses
one -- the New Belgium Brewery uses a copper manifold in their several-
hundred-bbl mash tun.  It's identical to the one I use at home in every
respect except for size.

BTW, if anyone wants plans for a copper lauter manifold, or an
easymasher, or any other schemes presented in HBD, grab the
all_grain_equipment file from sierra.stanford.edu.  Then decide what's
easiest for you.

- --
Jeff Benjamin                               benji at hpfcla.fc.hp.com
Hewlett Packard Co.                         Fort Collins, Colorado	
"Midnight shakes the memory as a madman shakes a dead geranium."
					    - T.S. Eliot

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Date: Fri, 18 Mar 1994 13:27:23 -0500 (EST)
From: jeff344 at voodoo.lerc.nasa.gov (Jeff Berton)
Subject: Re: False Bottom Museum

Jack writes:

>  I hate to sound pompous but, the easy masher has relegated the false bottom 
>  to a location next to the dinasaurs in the museum. I can't think of a single 
>  advantage other than potentially faster lautering with a false bottom and 
>  that has questionable value in homebrewing.

In a RIMS, a false bottom in the mash is necessary because it provides an open
area for flow large enough to allow reasonable pumping rates.  

My RIMS false bottom is simple and inexpensive.  I use a 16-inch diameter pizza
pan that is coated with a no-stick material.  These pans may be bought
perforated with several hundred half-inch diameter holes that allow pizza crust
to brown better.  I covered the top of the pan with stainless steel screening
and threaded it on with fishing line.  The false bottom fits nicely at the
bottom of my sawed-off pony keg RIMS mash tun with a relatively small ullage
space under the pan.  It stays in place during the mash and it's easily removed
for cleaning afterwards.
- --
Jeff Berton, Aeropropulsion Analysis Office, NASA Lewis Research Center
jeff344 at voodoo.lerc.nasa.gov


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Date:    Fri, 18 Mar 94 12:52 CST
From: "Pete Brauer 312/915-6157" <$W$PR42%LUCCPUA.BITNET at UICVM.UIC.EDU>
Subject: lists

For veglife try veglife at vtvm1.cc.vt.edu
 .
Pete

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Date: Fri, 18 Mar 94 12:07:23 -0700
From: Steve Dempsey <steved at longs.lance.colostate.edu>
Subject: Call for Judges, AHA NHC Denver


Judging for the western region of the 1994 AHA National Homebrew
Competition will be held in Denver on Friday and Saturday, April
30 and May 1.  The location will be the Wynkoop Brewing Co. downtown,
same as last year.

Judges and stewards are needed for two sessions on each day.  The
morning session will run 8:30-noon; afternoon 1:30-5pm.  Lunch will
be provided for all stewards and judges working two or more sessions.

A letter with complete details and registration information is
scheduled to be mailed on March 21 to:

    - everyone who participated last year
    - active BJCP judges
    - homebrew clubs

If you are interested in participating and don't think you will get
this information from one of the above, please contact me by email
to <steved at longs.lance.colostate.edu>, or by phone, (303) 491-0630 day,
482-1403 evenings (voice mail on both numbers).


================================    Engineering Network Services
Steve Dempsey                       Colorado State University
steved at longs.lance.colostate.edu    Fort Collins, CO  80523
================================    +1 303 491 0630

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Date: Fri, 18 Mar 1994 12:36:45 -0600 (CST)
From: msh at tellabs.com
Subject: Request for Extract Recipes

Recently there was a posting with extract recipes to emulate Bass, Harp,
etc. Would someone please send me email with this info. I inadvertently
deleted the file.

Thanks,

Mike Horning


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Date: Fri, 18 Mar 94 13:43:03 -0600
From: gjfix at utamat.uta.edu (George J Fix)
Subject: A new brewery for Houston

It gives me pleasure to announce the formation of St. Arnolds Brewing
Company of Houston, which will become that city's first micro. St.Arnolds
will be a 60 bbl. operation, and will feature state of the art equipment
custom designed by Gary Bauer. Gary has over 50 commercial systems in
currrent operation, but this one IMHO is his masterpiece. Brock Wagner, a
noted Houston homebrewer, will be the brewer, and I am serving as the
technical consultant for the project.

Installation of the equipment is scheduled to begin on April 2, and the first
brew will be done on April 9. St. Arnolds' initial beer will be an amber ale.
Test brews using this formulation have done extremely well in blind consumer
preference polls, so everyone involved is "anxiously optimistic". The beer
will be available on draft in Houston at beer oriented watering holes (e.g.,
The Gingerman). A bottling line is currently under construction, and is 
scheduled for delivery in the middle of May. The bottled version will be
widely distributed, although initially only in Texas.

Those in the Houston area who have never seen a "first brew" done on a new
system are encouraged to tour the facility on the 9th. More info can be 
obtained from the brewery (713-686-9494).

George Fix


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Date: Fri, 18 Mar 1994 13:48:05 -0600
From: Sean.Rooney at uic.edu (Sean Rooney)
Subject: Party Pigs and The Carbonator

I'm considering buying a Party Pig (Plastic keg with an expanding bag to
fill deadspace) and a Carbonator (quick release fitting for 2L pop
bottles).  Does anybody have any experience with these products?


Sean Rooney
University of Illinois at Chicago
Department of Genetics
Sean.Rooney at uic.edu



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Date: Fri, 18 Mar 1994 13:15:21 -0800 (PST)
From: Eric Wade <ericwade at CLASS.ORG>
Subject: Glass airlocks, canning wort

Let me second Mike Dix request for sources of glass airlocks, either SF 
Bay Area or nationwide mailorder.

Thanks to all for the responses both privately and to the list on canning
of wort to save for yeast starter.  It looks like many of you are
successfully canning using just the hot water method (not pressure
canning).  The big concern in canning pH neutral foodstuffs is botulism. 
I remember a couple of incidents of commercially canned mushrooms and
vichyssoise around 1970 that knocked a few people off.  Why would anyone
use canned mushrooms anyway??  But I digress.  Botulin spores are not
killed by the heat in non-pressure canning and, unfortunately botulism
does not produce any off odors or appearances.  Generally you don't know
about it until it is too late.  Nobody posted that they got botulism
poisoning from improperly canned wort, but how do we know they haven't
croaked in their basement brewery?  But seriously, is their someone out
there in HBD land with enough food science expertise to tell us if wort is
acidic enough to keep botulism at bay without pressure canning? 

=Eric


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Date: Fri, 18 Mar 1994 13:54:02 -0800
From: belew at netcom.com (Jonathan Peakall)
Subject: Kegging

I have been brewing with a couple of friends for about 8 years, in ever 
increasing quantities. We have now reached the point of brewing a 100 gal. 
batch, and have finally obtained some firestone (I think that's what they're 
called?) kegs to ease the bottling hassle. I read the excellent article on 
kegging in the archives at Stanford, but still have a few questions.

First, does anyone know a good place to purchase fittings and so on for the 
kegs in the San Francisco Bay Area? What about places to test and fill your 
co2 tanks? Can anyone tell me the name of a good book on kegging, or 
direct me to a good source of materials?

I have always been pretty isolated in my brewing, and was amazed when I 
read some of the old articles. It seems most people who subscribe to the 
HBD are pretty scientific about brewing. It makes me feel positivly hap-
hazard. I weigh my ingredients with a broomhandle balanced on a ruler, 
and only use the hydrometer once, just before pitching the yeast. After the 
secondary fermentation slows down, I rack off the brew from the carboys, 
add a little corn sugar an bottle. Thing is, the beer has always been good!

Anyway, it is great to be in contact with other brewers. Any advice or 
information is welcome. Thanks!

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Date: Fri, 18 Mar 94 16:59:55 
From: aaron.banerjee at his.com
Subject: WINE CLARIFIERS


   
     
     
Say, has anyone ever tried clairifying wine with egg whites? 
  
 
please respond directly to me at:
  
        aaron.banerjee at his.com
   
    
  

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Date: Fri, 18 Mar 1994 18:31:04 -0500 (EST)
From: "Robert H. Reed" <rhreed at icdc.delcoelect.com>
Subject: Specialty Grains / Lakefront

mri10 at mfg.amdahl.com (Michael Inglis) writes:

> 	Body and sweetness associated with specialty grains comes from the 
> fact that a "mini-mash" has already occured within the husk of the grain
> during the malting process, leaving dextrines as a large part of the malt
> composition.  Dextrines add both sweetness and body to the beer as they are
> unfermentable to yeast.  To add a specialty grain to the main mash for 
> mashing defeats the purpose of using the grain in the first place.  The
> dextrines that are freed up in the mash from the grain get converted to 
> fermentables during the main mash by the enzymes that are present and you 
> lose both the body and the sweetness.  

Dextrins don't add any substantial sweetness to your beer.  The addition of
dextrins increases the viscosity and imparts a certain smoothness.  The
addition od dextrins to your beer does decrease the perceived hop
bitterness.

Your reasoning above seems to be based on the use of a low temperature
mash - that is one favoring beta amylase activity over alpha amylase 
enzyme activity.  If you conduct your mash at temperatures that 
discourage beta amaylase activity, you will not break down all of
your dextrins to fermentable sugars.

Some guys wrote an article in Zymurgy awhile back that touted
benefits from adding darker grains to the mash at 'mash-out', but
I believe the point was the preservation of melanoidins for the
enhancement of "smoothness"  and rounder flavors.

<s12int::l375bbk at god.bel.alcatel.be> writes:

> Lakefront Brewery, Milwaukee, WI - This is a low budget brewpub.  The owner is
> trying to qualify for a BIG BUCKS loan by developing a track record first. 
> ( I've never been to this one. A friend told me about it.)

I guess I'd refer to the Klisch operation more as a brewery on a shoestring, 
although I believe they have financed several expansions since they opened.

The last time I was at Lakefront, they were not a brewpub.  Have Russ and Jim
added a bar?

If their performance to date is an indication, I'd say that they have developed
a track record.  I put their Stein Beer and Maibock beers in the 4 star+
category.

Rob Reed

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Date: Fri, 18 Mar 1994 15:39:04 -0800
From: bguerin at orincon.com (Bob Guerin)
Subject: Hop Utilization Tests

I was pleased to see the results of the "wort gravity" test in HBD #1375
(Thanks, Glenn!).  The results, though anecdotal, seems to indicate that
the wort gravity *does* affect the utilization in the boil.  Something
interesting about those results: the 42% utilization for the low gravity
wort is much higher than the 30% maximum listed by Rager.  Also, the
reduction in utilization from the lower to the higher gravity wort is also
much higher than in Rager's formula (which predicts a factor of 1.18
instead of the 2.1 seen in this case).

I would like to propose the following test, one to check out the "hopping
rate" theory supported by Mark Garetz.  At the start of a boil, draw off a
small quantity of wort into a separate pan.  Add the same quantity of hops
to both pans.  Boil both for the same amount of time.  Add water to the
smaller wort to bring it to the same volume as the original.  Take samples
of both, and measure the iso-alpha acids.  Glenn - are you interested in
trying this?

Bob Guerin
(bguerin at orincon.com)



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Date: Fri, 18 Mar 94 19:15:12
From: Christopher Alan Strickland <beach!chris at cocoa12.ksc.nasa.gov>
Subject: Bottle Sanitation

I have been letting my bottles soak in a bleach solution, then
washing in the dishwasher with a small amount of bleach on the
first wash cycle and drying with heat.  I'm thinking about dropping
the soak (which I do in the bathtub).  Any reason why putting bleach
in for the first wash cycle and letting the 2nd cycle just rinse, along
with the rinse cycle, then heat dry in the washer won't work?
- -- 
Chris Strickland
Internet: beach!chris at cocoa12.ksc.nasa.gov


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Date: Fri, 18 Mar 94 16:34 PST
From: larryba at polstra.com (Larry Barello)
Subject: Re: De-lidding SS Kegs

In HBD #1375 you write:
>While I won't argue that a air powered grinder is a good
>way to cut the top out of SS kegs, I can assure you
>that a sabre saw with a bi-metal blade wil NOT take
>4 hours. It takes about 10 minutes and does a very
>nice job.

I can verify that a proper bi-metal blade in a saber
saw takes the top off of two or three kegs before
needing replacement and only takes 10 or so minutes
per keg.  I used the nose of my belt sander to grind
the resulting hole smooth.

- -- 
Larry Barello			larryba at polstra.com
10034 NE 22nd ST		(206) 454-6958
Bellevue, WA.  98004

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Date: Fri, 18 Mar 94 16:48 PST
From: larryba at polstra.com (Larry Barello)
Subject: Re: False Bottom Museum

In HBD #1374 Jack writes:
> >From: Jim_Merrill at vos.stratus.com
> >What is the best way to implement a mashing vessel using a 15.5 SS
> >keg. The three options I am considering are:
> >
> >     1) False Stainless Steel bottom
> >     2) A copper ring that sits in the bottom and has small slits in it.
> >     3) An "Easy Masher" type installation with a screen.
> ...
> The copper pipe manifold is an alternative but is grossly complicated and 
> difficult to build compared to the em and I don't know of any commercially 
> available nor why one would want one.

Oh, the pipe manifold isn't that hard to make.  I just wrapped some
copper around my soda keg and soldered a dog-leg on the end to 
meet up with the compression fitting soldered through the side of
the keg.  I have been very happy with the performance (Ultra fast
lauters, 100% extract yields).

I would have done something like the EM, except that I had the copper
and I didn't have the SS screen.  Also, I used a similar arrangement
for the kettle but with a ring that fit just above the dome against
the side of the keg. That way all trub and hop particulates (I use
pellets) sit in the dome and I rack off clear wort.  The dome holds
less than 2 qts so wort loss is minimal in a 10 gal batch.

As Jack said, with the EM or a ring, one can bottom heat the mash 
without worrying about scorching.  I can't imaging spending the money
on a false bottom arrangement of any sort after using the ring (or
an EM if Ihad some spare screen laying around)


- -- 
Larry Barello			larryba at polstra.com
10034 NE 22nd ST		(206) 454-6958
Bellevue, WA.  98004

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Date: Sat, 19 Mar 94 00:04:33 EST
From: katanka at aol.com
Subject: Re:Dry Malt Priming

I also have tried the dry malt priming trick as per Papazian's book.  Both
with corn sugar and DME.  Carbonation for these batches seemed poor at best. 
Then on a whim, I tried a different method.  Us8ng the information on
krausening (Papazian's Book) I created my primer by making a "Simple Syrup"
with Dry Malt Extract.  This simply put, is a mixture of 2 parts water and 1
part extract or sugar. 

Example: I use either 3 cups water to 1.5 cups DME or 2 cups water and 1 cup
corn sugar. 

Then I boil the mixture for 10 minutes and cool quickly (cover with cheese
cloth or paper towel and set in freezer)  when warm, I dump the primer into
the bottling bucket and siphon into it.  I believe this creates a better
primer because the primer is now a liquid which will mix more freely with the
beer.  Also, the sugars are already in solution which makes them more
available to the yeasties!

The resultant carbonation seems much better (as well as head retention(?!?))
you can adjust the amount as needed, but keep the 2 to 1 ratio.

Katanka

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Date: Sat, 19 Mar 1994 08:26:14 -0500 (EST)
From: John Brawley <brawley at cbl.umd.edu>
Subject: Re: mail order hops


I just received some hop rhizomes from Freshops:

Freshops
36180 Kings Valley Hwy.
Philomath, OR  97370
(503) 929-2736

Good luck.


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Date: Wed, 16 Mar 1994 15:52:53 -0500 (EST)
From: greggt at infi.net (Gregg Tennefoss)
Subject: first extract/lager


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Date: Sat, 19 Mar 1994 09:52:09 -0500 (EST)
From: WESTEMEIER at delphi.com
Subject: Cincinnati NHC First Round

A fifth judging site will be added this year for the National Homebrew
Competition.  This site is at the Oldenberg Brewery, just south of Cincinnati
Ohio. Any judges who think they might be able to make it, please
let us know so we can send you more detailed information.
The dates are:
Friday evening, April 29, and all day Saturday, April 30.

Thanks, and we hope to see you there.

Ed Westemeier, Judge Coordinator
westemeier at delphi.com

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Date: Thu, 17 Mar 1994 08:20:52 -0500 (EST)
From: greggt at infi.net (Gregg Tennefoss)
Subject: Bad Post

I very humbly appologize for the complete waste of band width in my 
recent post. I inadvertantly sent the file binary. I will repost in
a more appropriate manner. 

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Date: Sat, 19 Mar 1994 08:47:55 -600 (CST)
From: evanms at lcac1.loras.edu
Subject: How 'bout a new digest?


I consider myself an advanced brewer--six years of brewing, over ninety
batches, mostly all-grain--and I have an abiding interest in some of the
finer points of the craft.  however, I feel that the preoccupation with
some rather obscure points on the digest IS eating up bandwidth; my space
bar is quickly wearing out.  Perhaps the interested parties could start
their own digest--the "HUD" (Hop Utilization Digest) or the "BB-BBD" (Bad
Bottlecapper-Broken bottle Digest), or maybe, as I have (seriously)  actually
read in
one post, there would be room in the Alt.Beer space in the Usenet.  

I enjoy reading the HBD each day--picking up new recipe ideas, innovations
for the mash process, and replying to those in need of help.  Let's try to
keep obscureness to a minimum or, perhaps, post a new FAQ (Hop
Utilization) to the Sierra listsever; then all concerns could be directed
to the archive. Isn't this how "FAQ'S" originate?

Getting ready to fire up the ale brewing season!

mark Evans **********Mashing on the upper Mississippi*****************





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Date: Sat, 19 Mar 1994 07:44:10 -0800 (PST)
From: Domenick Venezia <venezia at ZGI.COM>
Subject: Manifold vs Zap-Pap

The recent thread on drilled versus manifold versus EasyMasher style lauter 
systems prompts me to share this experience and ask for collaboration/
rebuttal/comments.

I have used both "Zap-Pap" and manifold style lauter systems.  With my
copper manifold I have a VERY hard time getting the wort to clear.  I
recycle the complete mash volume and more before the wort clears.  Even 
with that it isn't "bright".  On the otherhand my Zap-Pap always yields
clear wort with about a gallon of recycling. 

      |
__|___|___|   This is my mainfold geometry.
  |   |   |  
      |

Do any others share this experience?  Any explanations?  Conjecture?  Jokes?

Let me also add that I am greatly enjoying the Hop utilization thread. 
Thanks to all the contributors and let's give Glen Tinseth and Co. all the
support we can to help generate real data.

Domenick Venezia
ZymoGenetics, Inc.
Seattle, WA
venezia at zgi.com




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Date: Sat, 19 Mar 94 12:33:58
From: Christopher Alan Strickland <beach!chris at cocoa12.ksc.nasa.gov>
Subject: Blackberry Stout

Just wanted some opinions.  I made the blackberry stout with 60 oz
of frozen blackberries.  My OG was 1.061, after 3 days I racked with
an SG of 1.027.  After 5 days the SG was still 1.027 so I bottled.
It's 12 days latter and the beer tastes a little sour (not going
bad sour, just sour).  I expected with the high FG that it'd be a little
sweet (though I prefer dry beers).  Am I just being too impatient, and
need to let it age a while longer, or could it be that the frozen 
black berries could have been piced before ripening causing the 
sour taste?
- -- 
Chris Strickland
Internet: beach!chris at cocoa12.ksc.nasa.gov


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Date: Sat, 19 Mar 1994 13:04:52 -0500
From: dd596 at cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Marc L. Goldfarb)
Subject: Thermometer calibration/hop rhizome sources/beer festival/etc



Hi All:
Some of these comments may be out of date, but I am so far behind
in my reading that I just finished #1363.

First of all, regarding locations of brewpubs in various city, 
i mean cities, the best source of that info is to call any 
homebrew supply store in the city in question and ask them.
I travel quite a bit, and the first call in any city upon
arrival is that one. It *NEVER* fails.

Now on to important stuff.  It has recently come to my attention 
that my $5 dairy thermometer may not be the most accurate
measuring device available. What a shock. Anyway, I boiled
some water this morning and the thermometer read 207 degrees.
Cleveland is at about 600 ft. above S.L., so I don't think
that a conversion is necessary.  My question for any of you
scientists out there is: will the error of 5 degrees be
linear throughout the range of the thermometer? If not,
how do I adjust for the error? Or don't I?

Next on the hit parade, I would like to thank all those who
responded to my request for rhizome sources.  BOTH responses
were very helpful. As promised, here is the info.
   1) The Malt Shop in Cascade, Wisconsin. 800-235-0026.
I spoke with Don this morning and he was very helpful. They
have a deal going right now. Order 3 rhizomes and Beach's
book on growing hops and get a $2.00 discount.
   2) Freshops in Philomath, OR. 503-929-2736.
   3) American Brewmaster in Raleigh, N.C. 919-850-0095.
The usual disclaimers apply.

And finally, I am looking for any info on beer festivals
around the country. Homebrew or commercial. I would especially
like to be able to contact the organizers of these events.
Any info via e-mail would be greatly appreciated.

Hoppy brewing. Now back to the last 3 weeks of the digest.

Marc
333

- --
Clear skies and hoppy brewing from the North Coast
Marc Goldfarb, Prestige Aviation & DiMarc Brewing
216-631-3323 or on Internet - dd596 at cleveland.freenet.edu

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Date: Sat, 19 Mar 94 13:43 CST
From: arf at mcs.com (Jack Schmidling)
Subject: COPPER MANIFOLDS

 
 >From: "Thomas Kavanagh, Curator" <TKAVANAG at ucs.indiana.edu>
 
 >I do not wish to disparage Jack's products--I lust after a Malt
 Mill(tm)--but I would like to say a few words in favor of my
 version of the copper manifold.
 
 Nor do I wish to disparage anything that works and was fun to build.
 However, you have done little in your response to dispel the notion, that a
 CM is more complicated and difficult to make than an em.
 
 > I did not need to dedicate my $50+ 5 gallon SS mash tun pot only to 
 brewing,
 
 I can't argue a philisophical point other than to say that people have made 
 easy mashers as you suggested with a long piece of tubing coming up and out
 of the kettle to preclude drilling a hole in the kettle but I think many 
 brewers have no problem dedicating brewing equipment to brewing.  This is 
 especially true when getting beyond the 5 gallon kettle.  I can't think of 
 too many other uses for my 10 and 16 gallon kettles other than fermenting 
 wine in it and the em works great to draw off the fermented juice and leave 
 the pulp behind.   Furthermore, the em strainer assembly can be removed 
 leaving only the spigot which won't interfere with boiling spagetti.
 
 > nor did I need to find a jobber who could cut a hole in a SS pot.
 
 Having done what you did, I would be very surprised if you could not drill a 
 3/8" hole without outside help.
 
 Now we get to the real question, what is the advantage of the CM?  It seems a 
 bit like RIMS, once you get beyond the fun of building, using and talking 
 about it, it offers no advantage over simpler methods.
 
 >From: Jim Busch <busch at daacdev1.stx.com>
 
 >> J.S.  Actually, I do not know of any way to deal with the scorching 
 problem with a  false bottom.  It almost precludes mashing in the same 
 kettle.
 
 >Broken record time??  Your last statement is the real issue here.  Sizable
 breweries who want a flexable mash schedule do not mash in the same
 vessel as they lauter in.
 
 They would if that had a MICROMASHER.
 
 Not sure who is playing the broken record nor can I connect your statement 
 with the one of mine you cited.
 
 What "sizable breweries" and advanced homebrewers do in this case is not 
 relevant to the discussion.  The point I made was that one loses the option 
 of mashing or boiling in the lauter tun if it is equipped with a false 
 bottom.  For the homebrewer with one kettle or the low budget extract pub 
 brewer, the em offers an inexpensive means of making all grain beer in a 
 single vessel.
 
 >  Usually the mash tun is also the brew kettle.
 
 This necessitates the very messy and time consuming step of transferring the 
 mash to the lauter tun which, with an em, requires only the opening of a 
 valve because the mash tun is the lauter tun.
 
 >RIMS systems avoid this, and make use of a false bottom just fine.
 
 Hardly the low budget approach I was addressing.  Nor does it preclude using 
 an em in a RIMS system.
 
 >I can also lauter weizens and Wit beers with ease.
 
 Do you know of anyone having problems doing that with an em?  I guess I 
 should say EM, as I can't be responsible for what others make.
 
 >From: Allen Ford <allen at darwin.sfbr.org>
 
 >  1)The *dead space* under the false bottom (known to brewers as
 foundation) allows for easy addition of heat to the mash for temperature
 correction or for step mashing.  The scorching problems can be avoided
 by recirculating while applying heat.
 
 I suppose with enough rhetoric, any fault can be turned into a "feature" but 
 this is the first time I have heard such claims for the space under a false 
 bottom.
 
 Contrary to what you claim, it CREATES problems when adding heat and makes 
 scorching very difficult to control.  Steam and boiling water get trapped 
 under it and there is no way to redistribute the heat other than 
 recirculating the steaming water.  With an em, you simply stir occassionally 
 to redistribute the heat.
 
 >   2)Stuck mashes are not a problem (provided the grain is milled well)
 because of the large drainage surface area.  If a mash sticks, it is
 simple to re-float the grain bed by reversing the flow and pumping into
 the bottom of the mash tun.
  
 Simple?  I have made batches using malt purposely ground to flour in a Corona 
 without having them stick.  I have NEVER had a stuck mash with an "EM" and 
 don't know anyone who has.
 
 >  3)Cleanup is quick and easy.  Simply remove the false bottom and hose
 it off.
 
 The EM unscrews and weighs 2 oz.
 
 >There is no doubt that the easymasher is cheaper than a well-made false
 bottom.  How does one perform a step mash using the easymasher? 
 
 Turn on the heat, stir and shut off when at temp.
 
 > Can heat be applied to the bottom of the mash tun without scorching the 
 grains that are in contact with the bottom? 
 
 That's a given.  That's not to say you can turn on the burner at full blast 
 and walk away for an hour.  But with judicious stiring and attention to what 
 is goin on it is no problem at all.
 
 > How does one unstick a stuck mash?
 
 Never having had one I can only say what I have done on a what-if basis.
 
 One would lift the output hose above the level of the liquid in the kettle 
 and gently blow into it.  Sort of what was suggested for the fb but much less 
 hassle.
 
 >How large a mash tun will an easymasher drain effectively?
 
 The homebrew version works well up to  half barrel systems.  I have one on 10 
 and 16 gallon vessels and on a 1 gal pilot system.  The yields and 
 functionality are comparable on all three.
 
 The newly announced MICROMASHER will handle anything likely to be found in a 
 Micro or pub.
 
 Now, for the record, George Fix recently ran a test on what I call the 
 COMPLETE EASYMASHER, i.e. an EM installed in an 8 gal ceramic on steel 
 kettle.
 
 He corroborated most everything I have said about it and the only negative 
 comment was the fact that it did not drain/lauter as fast as his $300 DME fb.
 
 This may be the nature of the beast or may be a result of extenuating 
 circumstances.   One of which that can not be overlooked is that he only made 
 a 10 liter batch which is at the low end of what can be done in that very 
 squat kettle.   The higher the liquid level, naturally, the greater will be 
 the flow rate.   The wide open flow rate could also be limited by the 
 plumbing size and is the reason for the scaled up MICROMASHER.
 
 It is my experience with 10 gallon batches that I must always throttle back 
 the flow rate to get the lauter rate I like.  After hearing from George, I 
 timed the last batch and it took 1 hr and 12 min to sparge 10 gallons and 
 collect a total of 14 gallons of wort.
 
 I think the direction this topic has turned over the two years since 
 introducing the EM is most encouraging.  The first year was spent arguing 
 with people who never used it that it works at all and now it seems to be 
 trying to prove that it has truly revolutioniized all grain brewing.
 
 js

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Date: Sat, 19 Mar 1994 12:52:20 -0800 (PST)
From: Davis <sekearns at ucdavis.edu>
Subject: one large beer

Is it possible to fill one 2.5 gallon carboy with beer, cork it, and drink
it as one large beer.  For example, after mixing fermented wort with 
bottling sugar or dried malt extract, rack half the batch to a 2.5 carboy 
and bottle the rest?  Any thoughts please e-mail.

I have a "bud" keg, typical commertial keg.  Is there any way to 
"de-bung" these kegs?  Can these kegs be used by home-brewers or only by 
the beer companies?  

Thanks for any suggestions.

Matt 
sekearns at ucdavis.edu


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Date: 19 Mar 94 17:24:08 ES
From: Brian J. Cecil <Brian_J.._Cecil at wecnotes.semcor.com>
Subject: Killian's Red Clone

Does anyone have a Kiliian's Red clone recipe they would like to share?  My 
wife and I love the stuff, and would love to brew a batch or two.

Cheers,

Brian


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Date: Sat, 19 Mar 94 23:20:46 PST
From: Mark Garetz <mgaretz at hoptech.com>
Subject: Mea Culpa

Glenn Tinseth's data was very interesting, showing that
wort boil gravity may indeed have an effect.  I could have
sworn that I had data showing no effect all the way up to 
1.090 but I can't find it, so maybe it is the result of
one-too-many homebrews!  :-)

Anyway, the paper I referenced only showed results up to
1.050 where it is clear that boil gravity had no effect.
Rager may have used this data because his gravity adjustment
starts at 1.050 (anybody know?).  So the research I was
basing my information on does not appear to be extendable
to worts with gravities above 1.050.

Given Glenn's preliminary results, I am willing to admit that
I most likely incorrectly extrapolated the data I had to all
wort boil gravities.  So even though there is still a 
significant fermentation effect due to gravity, I am no longer
willing to state that boil gravity has no effect, at least
for worts above 1.050.

One thing I wanted to point out:  Glenn was very clear in his
post that what he measured was *kettle* utilization so don't
jump to conclusions that you should be getting 40% utilization
in your finished beer.  Fermentation will cut this back down to
the normal range of 18-25% (and you can imagine what happens to
the high gravity wort that *started* fermentation at 20%).

Mark


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Date: Sat, 19 Mar 1994 14:22:55 -0800
From: Don Put <dput at csulb.edu>

Subject: Hops Sources and Sunset Mag

For those of you looking for hop rhizome sources, the latest issue of 
Sunset magazine (April) has a very short article on growing hops for beer,
or just for looks.  They list the following suppliers:

Freshops
36180 Kings Valley Highway
Philomath, OR  97370
(503) 929-2736

The Herbfarm
32804 Issaquah-Fall City Rd.
Fall City, WA  98024
(206) 784-2222

Beer Makers of America
15 S. Main St.
Colfax, CA  95713
(800) 655-5682

The Beverage People
840 Piner Rd, Suite 14
Santa Rosa, CA  95403
(800) 544-1867

Nichols Garden Nursery
1190 N. Pacific Hwy.
Albany, OR  97321
(503) 928-9280

Usual Disclaimer:  Yada, yada, yada.

don
dput at csulb.edu


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End of HOMEBREW Digest #1377, 03/21/94