FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Rob Gardner, Digest Janitor


Contents:
  kettle (Alan B. Carlson)
  Re: Wort Chillers (matth)
  dry hopping ("Dana S. Cummings")
  wort chiller use (Matthew Howell)
  RE: extract vs grain costs at 1BBl level (Jim Busch)
  Oktoberfest/Marzen Recipes (Paul J. Schumacher)
  RIMS Comment (Bob_McIlvaine)
  barley wine questions (student)
  FW: DWI on the Information Super-highway ... (Murray Knudson)
  hlep (CSTASW1)
  Interbrew-Vatican Merger (Frank J Dobner +1 708 979 5124)
  Several questions (John Williams)
  Re: RIMS info request (Dion Hollenbeck)
  copper ingestion ("DANIEL HOUG")
  IrishMoss/Beer&Light/GrainBedDepth/Underpitching/DryIce/CherryBeer (Algis R Korzonas +1 708 979 8583)
  fruit beer (TARVINJ)
  Beer IRC? (BIO)" <tillman at chuma.cas.usf.edu>
  Chillers Compared/Re: Is this an OK way to brew? (Algis R Korzonas +1 708 979 8583)
  A smaller airlock (Patricia Doran - HTMG/W94)
  Rusty Kettle (Mark Schnitzler)


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----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Thu, 31 Mar 94 11:40:25 CET
From: Alan B. Carlson <alanc at adb.gu.se>
Subject: kettle

I am heading back "home" to Los Angeles tommorrow (April 1 - no, no
joke) to visit my parents for a couple of weeks - hope we get better
weather than here in Sweden - and would like to get a kettle to do full
boils with (10 gallon or larger). I'd like to buy stainless if it
doesn't cost a fortune, otherwise it'll have to be an enameled. BTW, my
parents live in Norwalk.

Please send replies via email (let's save bandwidth on the digest :-) ).
I'll have my PowerBook and modem with me in the States.

Thanx,

Alan

- ------------------------------------------------------------
Alan B. Carlson                      Phone: +46 31 772 10 73
University of Gothenburg             Fax:   +46 31 772 10 99
Department of Information Systems    email:  alanc at adb.gu.se
Holtermansgatan 1
S-412 96 Gothenburg                        
SWEDEN  
- ------------------------------------------------------------



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Date: Thu, 31 Mar 94 07:28:19 EST
From: matth at bedford.progress.COM
Subject: Re: Wort Chillers


>I have been reading the HBD for some months through the CompuServe beer
>forum library. Lots of good information --some not so good. My particular

[snip]
  
>
>The coiled copper wort cooler is a fine invention, but most people are
>using it incorrectly and inefficiently. 

  For someone who has been reading for some months you seem to have missed some
very pertinent information.

  There are 3 basic ways a wort chiller can be used:

  1) An immersion chiller where a coil of copper pipe is immerrsed in
     the boiling wort.  Cold water is run through it to cool the wort down.

     Advantage(s):    Simple to make & use
                      No need to have great concerns for sanitation or fear
                      possible problems from splashing hot wort about.
 
     Disadvantage(s): Not the most efficient method.  Tends to use more
                      water than other methods.  Not really a concern for
                      non-drought stricken areas IFF (note the IFF) IFF the
                      water is reused for some other purpose.  Average
                      area of wort cools most slowly with this method.

  2) An immersion chiller (your style) where the copper coil is submerged in
     an ice bath and the wort is sucked/piped/pushed/dragged/whatever through
     the pipe.

     Advantage(s):    Fairly efficient, simple to make, specific areas of
                      wort are cooled down in a much shorter period of time.

     DIsadvantage(s): Have to siphon hot wort, possibly sanitation issues

  3) A counter-flow chiller, where the a copper coil/pipe is nested *inside*
     some other pipe, usually of the garden hose variety.  The wort is siphoned
    through the copper pipe in one direction, while water is siphoned through 
    the garden hose in the other (this the counter part of counterflow).

    Advantage(s):     Very efficient. Fastest method for cooling down a specific
                      area of wort.

    Disadvantage(s):  More difficult to make a work with to some extent.  
                      Siphoning hot wort, sanitation issues.

>I siphon the wort *through* the
>coil with the cold water, snow, ice, blue ice or whatever, in a large pot
>on the outside. 

>saved. Then I siphon water from the hot water tap --but not necessarily
>very hot, it'll be sanitary enough-- 
  
  Define 'enough'?  Any wort particles left behind?  This is most peoples
biggest fear behind using a chiller in this manner.

>through the system and wash out the
>B-Brite, also washing out the secondary; I then cover the secondary with
>clean plastic wrap. After the boil, I strain the wort into another 5-6
>gal. container and set it beside the pot in the darkroom sink. Additional
>hops can be added now if desired, so long as they are fine enough not to
>plug up the tubing. Then, I siphon the wort through the coil and allow the
>cooled wort to splash foamily into the secondary which is sitting on the
>floor, hence much lower. The temperature will probably be down around
>80^F and yeast can be pitched immediately. At this point I remove the
>brewing vessel and siphon about a gallon of pure, hot water through the
>tubing and take any other steps to make sure it is as clean as possible,
>inside and out. 

  So, while your method works fine for you, others choose other methods.  Many
people will tell you you're using yours incorrectly as they feel you`re supposed
to run water through the coil, not wort.  Whatever floats one's boat.

  I would, however, suggest that you take your method a little bit farther and
make the water bath colder, thus dropping the temperature even farther, like 
in the mid-hi 60's range.  I don't recall the exact temperature right now
(anyone else?) but you'll get a much better cold break somewhere in that range 
than you will at 80 degrees F.

 -Matth

          Matthew J. Harper ! Progress Software Corp. ! {disclaimer.i}         
     God created heaven and earth to grow barley and hops. Now he homebrews.
			   DoD #1149   EGfc #0xed

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Date: Thu, 31 Mar 1994 07:51:04 -0500 (EST)
From: "Dana S. Cummings" <dcumming at moose.uvm.edu>
Subject: dry hopping

First a quick summary of my process before I pose the ?'s.  
I am an extract brewer using specialty grains for body, flavor, etc.  I start 
w/ ~3g. cold water, boil grains, remove, add extract & hops, boil for 1hr.  
Last 15min. add finishing hops.  Rack to 3-4g cold water pitch ~70f.  
After 3-6 days rack to secondary for upto 7 days more.  

Question--Is dry hopping more appropriate for primary or secondary 
fermentation?

Question2--If you dry hop in glass carboy(primary or sec.) how do you 
remove the hop cones without aerating the brew?

Many thanks in advance.

Dana Cummings
dcumming at moose.uvm.edu
dscummin at emba.uvm.edu
Burlington, VT



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Date: Thu, 31 Mar 94 08:13:41 -0500
From: Matthew Howell <howell at ll.mit.edu>
Subject: wort chiller use

          I could'nt agree more with Glenace L. Melton and his posting
          in #1386.  I utilize my wort chiller in exactly the same
          way, and it has worked wonderfully, shaving at least an hour
          off my brew times.  The first chiller I made is simply 20 ft
          of 1/4" copper tubing coiled up, with tubing attached to the
          ends for input and output.  The first time I used this
          setup, I immersed it in my sink filled with ice water.  The
          wort was literally ice cold coming out.  In fact, I had to
          wait for the batch to warm up to pitch the yeast!  (There
          was an incredible cold break that day, let me tell you!) Now
          I simply adjust the tap water to about 80 degrees, and I can
          pitch immediately after filling the carboy.  As far as
          sanitation goes, I have been flushing the chiller with
          boiling water before and after, and I have had no trouble to
          date.
               I too would be interested to hear if there is danger in
          cleaning wort chillers with vinegar, as I do this
          occasionally.
               Thanks to all you brewers out there, experienced and
          not, I have learned much and look forward to each day's
          posting.
                    Prosit!


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Date: Thu, 31 Mar 1994 09:48:08 -0500 (EST)
From: Jim Busch <busch at daacdev1.stx.com>
Subject: RE: extract vs grain costs at 1BBl level

Scott writes:
> Subject: Tumbleweed Trip Report (try # 2)
> 
> The economics (on their scale) is interesting.  High quality extract costs 
> about 50% more than high quality grain (in very large quantities, on a per 
> pound basis, including shipping)  But you only get 75% of the grain's weight 
> as extract, so the cost difference is maybe 25%.  To save $.20/# of extract, 
> the brew time (labor cost) more than doubles.  Plus you have to store 2 tons 
> of grain, deal with the FDA, more equipment, etc.  (numbers are approximate)  
> Thus there is a definate batch size break point.

I agree with this concerning the labor efforts/costs, but I cant follow the
raw ingredients costs.  A domestic 2 row malt runs about $12/50 Lb sack.
Interestingly (frustrating?) is that some malts from Europe can be had
at even cheaper rates, likely as a result of EC economic policies( this is
even *after* shipping!).  Using a 50Lb sack of domestic per one BBl, an 
extract of around 1.050 can be attained.  To do an equivelent using DME
would require roughly 36 lbs of DME (correct me if Im wrong here).  Now,
Im not up to date on the bulk costs of Alexanders DME, but even at $1
per Lb, we have a 300% difference in cost.  Clearly, Im missing something
here, Kenny doesnt get good deals on malt, or the 25% difference is incorrect.
The malt prices are for real, albeit usually unavailable to the homebrewer.
In fact, our local micro will soon be exprimenting (and hopefully me to!)
with these EC malts at rediculously subsidized prices.

> From: wyatt at Latitude.COM
> Subject: Mashing Enzymes
> 
>         The reason that I was slightly concerned about enzyme destruction 
>      from heat was that I read in "Brewing Techniques" magazine that the 
>      DeWolf Cosyn Pale Ale malt could only handle an extra 15% adjuncts.  
>      I have been using it in Scotch Ales and wanted to increace the amount 
>      of Biscuit Malt (which has no enzymes) in my batches.  I realize that 
>      Cara-Pils and Special B don't need mashing but I usually add them into 
>      the mash at the begining of the mash instead of the mash-out.  Does 
>      this eat up extra enzymes?  I would certainly think so.  Maybe I will 
>      just put them in at the mash-out next time and go for it. 

BIscuit and Special B can be used without concern with Pale ale malt, Pils
malt and Domestic malt.  You can mash them or add at mash off, but the
results apparently are reduced.

Good brewing,
Jim Busch

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Date: Thu, 31 Mar 1994 09:46:08 -0500
From: de792 at cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Paul J. Schumacher)
Subject: Oktoberfest/Marzen Recipes

Marzen style brew?  I recently tried Beck's Oktoberfest which I picked up
at a local beverage store.  It was excellent!  It was amber colored with 
just the right amount of sweetness countered by hop bitterness. I assume
that the sweetness comes from the use of crystal malt, but I'm not sure of
how much to use and what other adjuncts should be used.  Since I'm still an
extract brewer, I'd also need a reccomendation on the appropriate malt as
well as the type of hops.   Please post a recipe or send private e-mail if
you made a successful batch for the Marzen season!
                            Happy Brewing
                           
                            Paul


###

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Date: Thu, 31 Mar 94 10:50:08 EST
From: Bob_McIlvaine at keyfile.com
Subject: RIMS Comment

I've been using my RIMS for several months now. It
has gone through a couple of re-designs to correct
aeration problems in the plumbing. I have not
experienced the astringency that George mentioned.

I have very little plastic tubing, almost all of the
plumbing is copper, the tun is Stainless, and all
copper is not soldered, but copper brazed.

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Date: Thu, 31 Mar 1994 09:41:31 -0800 (PST)
From: student <vlib3521 at sfsuvax1.sfsu.edu>
Subject: barley wine questions

So far I am an extract brewer with sights on more advanced stuff.  Right 
now I have a barley wine in the primary fermenter.  I got the recipe out 
of Williams Brewing (mailorder)  Catalog Highlights.  I fiddled a bit 
with the recipe, but the starting gravity was l.095 and the recipe said 
to ferment for 5 days and then rack to a glass carboy for 5 months before 
bottling.  I used Red Star champagne yeast to allow fermentation to 
progress into higher alcohol levels and four days into the fermentation 
everything seems to be going well (I haven't rechecked the gravity yet).  
My questions are two-fold.  Do I prime when I rack to the carboy?
What gravity should be achieved before I transfer to the carboy or is it 
critical?  I would appreciate  anyone's suggestions, recipes etc. on 
brewing higher alcohol beers. 

Beryl Moody
San Bruno, CA
vlib3521 at sfsuvax1.sfsu.edu

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Date: Thu, 31 Mar 94 09:56:33 PST 
From: Murray Knudson <murrayk at microsoft.com>
Subject: FW: DWI on the Information Super-highway ...

unbelievable!!!!!!!!!!

Trust Congress? Not With This Unbelieveable Lair of Slop
PC Computing, April 1994, page 88.
By John C. Dvorak

 When Vice President Gore began talking about the Information Highway, we
all knew the bureaucrats would get involved more than we might like. In
fact, it may already be too late to stop a horrible Senate bill from
becoming law.

 The moniker -- Information Highway -- itself seems to be responsible for SB
#040194. Introduced by Senator Patrick Leahy, it's designed to prohibit
anyone from using a public computer network (Information Highway) while the
computer user is intoxicated. I know how silly this sounds, but Congress
apparently thinks that being drunk on a highway is bad no matter what kind
of highway it is. The bill is expected to pass this month.

 There already are rampant arguments as to how this proposed law can
possibly be enforced. The FBI hopes to use it as an excuse to do routine
wiretaps on any computer if there is any evidence that the owner "uses or
abuses alcohol and has access to a modem." Note how it slips in the word
'uses'. This means if you've been seen drinking one lone beer, you can have
your line tapped.

 Because this law would be so difficult to enforce, police officials are
drooling over the prospect of easily obtaining permits to do wiretaps. Ask
enforcement officials in Washington and they'll tell you the proposed law is
idiotic, but none will oppose it. Check the classified ads in the
"Washington Post" and you'll find the FBI, National Security Agency, and
something called the Online Enforcement Agency (when did they set that up?)
all soliciting experts in phone technology, specifically wiretapping.

 It gets worse. The Congressional Record of February 19, 1994, has a report
that outlines the use of computerized BBSes, Internet, Inter-Relay Chat, and
CompuServe CB as "propagating illicit sexual  encounters and meetings
between couples -- any of whom are underage... Even people purporting to
routinely have sex with animals are present on these systems to foster their
odd beliefs on the public-at-large." A rider on SB #040194 makes it a felony
to discuss sexual matters on any public-access network, including the
Internet, America Online, and CompuServe.

 I wondered how private companies such as America Online can be considered
public-access networks, so I called Senator Barbara Boxer's office and
talked to an aide, a woman named Felicia. She said the use of promotional
cards that give away a free hour or two of service constitues public access.
You know, like the ones found in the back of books or in modem boxes. She
also told me most BBS systems fall under this proposed statute. When asked
how they propose to enforce this law, she said it's not Congress's problem.
"Enforcement works itself out over time," she said.

 The group fighting this moronic law is led by Jerome Bernstein of the
Washington law firm of Bernstein, Bernstein and Knowles (the firm that
first took Ollie North as a client). I couldn't get in touch with any
of the co-sponsors of the bill (including Senator Ted Kennedy, if you
can believe it!), but Bernstein was glad to talk. "These people have no
clue about the Information Highway or what it does. The whole thing got
started last Christmas during an antidrinking campaign in the Washington
D.C., metro area," Bernstein said, "I'm convinced someone jokingly told
Leahy's office about drunk driving on the Information High and the idea
snowballed. These senators actually think there is a physical highway.
Seriously, Senator Pat Moynihan asked me if you needed a driving permit
to 'drive' a modem on the Information Highway! He has no clue what a
modem is, and neither does the rest of Congress."

 According to Bernstein, the antisexual wording in the bill was attributed
to Kennedy's office. "Kennedy thought that technology was leaving him
behind, and he wanted to be perceived as more up-to-date technologically.
He also though this would make amends for his alleged philandering."

 Unfortunately, the public is not much better informed than the Senate.
The Gallup Organization, at the behest of Congress, is polling the
public regarding intoxication while using a computer and online "hot
chatting." The results are chilling. More than half of the public thinks
that using a computer while intoxicated should be illegal! The results
of the sexuality poll are not available. But one question, "Should a
teenage boy be encouraged to pretend he is a girl while chatting with
another person online?" has civil rights activists alarmed. According
to Kevin Avril of the ACLU, "This activity doesn't even qualify as
virtual cross-dressing. Who cares about this stuff? What are we going
to do? Legislate an anti-boys-will-be-boys law? It sets a bad
precedent."

 I could go on and on with quotes and complaints from people regarding
this bill. But most of the complaints are getting nowhere. Pressure
groups, such as one led by Baptist ministers from De Kalb County,
Georgia, are supporting the law with such vehemence that they've managed
to derail an effort by modem manufacturers (the biggest being
Georgia-based Hayes) to lobby against the law. "Who wants to come out
and support drunkenness and computer sex?" asked a congressman who
requested anonymity.

 So, except for Bernstein, Bernstein, and Knowles, and a few members of
the ACLU, there is nothing to stop this bill from becoming law. You can
register your protests with your congressperson or Ms. Lirpa Sloof in
the Senate Legislative Analysts Office. Her name spelled backward says
it all.



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Date: Thu, 31 Mar 94 23:23 BST
From: CSTASW1 at vaxa.hw.ac.uk
Subject: hlep

help


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Date: 31 Mar 94 19:38:00 GMT
From: fjdobner at ihlpa.att.com (Frank J Dobner +1 708 979 5124)
Subject: Interbrew-Vatican Merger

UPI-Vatican

Well, it did not take long for Interbrew to aim their commercial weaponry
south to the Vatican. As it appears the Vatican and Interbrew are
in discussions leading to a commercial merger. Interbrew, the Belgian
megabrewer/marketer, has had its eye on the vast wine and liquer
cellars of the Vatican for some time. Supposedly, the catacombs
in and around Rome have been used for some time in laying down these
products.

As told, the merger will round out Interbrew's presence in southern
Europe as well as enhancing their product line into both the
wine and spirit area. THe Vatican will maintain its ecclesiastical
arm as its primary business. In a joint interview with both the
Pope and Father Guido Sarducci, it was also learned that this
venture did cause some stir in the Vatican ranks but they are both
confident that the organization can be shored up. 

Note that the general audience masses on Wednesday mornings will 
continue in the piazza in front of St. Peter's basilica. The Pope,
however, may not be drinking wine during mass anymore. It could
now quite possibly also be beer. 

Yeah! 

Frank Dobner

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Date: Thu, 31 Mar 1994 17:03:27 +0500
From: John Williams <jwilliam at hartford.edu>
Subject: Several questions

Fellow Brewers:

	Several questions.

	1)  I am looking at a Coronna bench capper in the Williams's
Catalogue.  They seem to like it but it looks like it is all plastic.  Is this
thing any good?  Has anyone used one?

	2)  I used the new Wyeast wheat yeast (#?).  I tried it upstairs
in the coat closet and within 24 hours, it had sent blow off onto the
floor and walls.  I replaced the air lock with a 1" tube and had no
trouble after that.  The result is my fermentor has been banned from the
upstairs.  I still want to brew ales and other warm fermentors in the
winter but my basement is 50 to 55.  Does anyone have ideas on how I can
heat a small space to 60 or 65 degrees?  I am thinking of something just big
enough to hold a 7 gallon carboy with blow off tube.  This winter I just
used lager yeast and enjoyed the cold.

	3)  My b-brite has hardened.  How can I soften it up again and
keep it from solidifying?

	4)  I purchased some brewing software for formulating recipes,
Brewer's Calculator.  It needs to know how my extract will contribute to
the original gravity.  Is there a rule of thumb for that or do
manufacturers have that information?

	5)  If anyone has a favorite oatmeal stout recipe using Williams
dark oatmeal extract, I would like a copy.

Thanks and all answers can be sent directly if you don't think the
answer has any general interest.  
						jwilliams

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Date: Thu, 31 Mar 94 11:46:28 PST
From: hollen at megatek.com (Dion Hollenbeck)
Subject: Re: RIMS info request

>>>>> "slkinsey" == slkinsey  <slkinsey at aol.com> writes:

slkinsey> As someone also did recently, I would like to request any
slkinsey> and all info on building a RIMS system.  Design, what/where
slkinsey> to buy, etc. would be greatly appreciated.  I am not a real
slkinsey> electronics-type techie, so try to make it easy for me.  I
slkinsey> would much rather buy components than have to wire/solder
slkinsey> them together like is described in the "gadgets" special
slkinsey> edition of Zymurgy.  

Bottom line on a temp controller, there are three ways you can go.
You can wire wrap one, you can do a printed circuit board, or you can
buy a PID (Proportional Integral Derivative) Temperature Controller
from one of the commercial suppliers (Cole-Parmer or Omega).  The
commercial units can run as low as $180, and up to as high as $500
depending on what features you want.  Also, with a commercial unit,
they will only switch 3 amps, so you will also need to get a relay,
which will run you another $30 or so, and they need a thermocouple or
RTD to sense temperature which will run anothe $30 or so.  Some people
have suggested that you can get these parts surplus for less $$, but I
have never seen them at the surplus stores I frequent.  

I built my own by enlisting the help of one of the Electronics
Engineers here at work and we did a wirewrap version of the Morris
design.  This is what I have been using for 7 batches now and it works
just fine.  I am currently working on getting a PCB version working, but
I am having a few technical difficulties with the etch process.  When
I get that solved and the board works, I plan to go out to a fab house
and get a bunch made, and they will be for sale as a kit.  Just solder
in the parts and off you go.

slkinsey> I am also interested in what people have to say about the
slkinsey> advantages and disadvantages of the system.  For example,
slkinsey> George Fix, in his recent Zymurgy review of the Brew Magic
slkinsey> RIMS system mentioned that many RIMS systems sufered in that
slkinsey> "the overall malt character of each was less than ideal,
slkinsey> often with an out-front grain astringent tone."  Has this
slkinsey> been anyone's experience?  

I recently entered three beers in competition and got two first
places.  All were done on the RIMS.  There *were* judges comments
about astringency, but only in the beer which did not place, not on
the first place ones.  Judges comments also indicated a nice malty
aroma and flavor.  The winners were a porter and a specialty porter
with licorice.

Regarding advantages of all grain with a RIMS system, I set up the
system, add water, begin recirculation and temp boost, wait until it
reaches 125F, dump in the grain, let it do a protein rest for 20 min,
turn the dial to 153F, let it go up to there, wait while it mashes for
90 min, turn the dial to 168F, let it get there, wait for 20 min
mashout and then use the pump to pump the wort to the wort boiler
while adding sparge water at the top of the mash tun.  Most of my time
is spent sitting around with brewing buddies, drinking beer and
talking beer, and glancing at the temp readout now and then.  Can't
imagine an easier system.

slkinsey> What is the deal with hot-side aeration in a RIMS system +
slkinsey> how do you prevent this?

I don't have any HSA problems because my liquid return into the mash
tun goes through a slotted copper manifold which is underneath the
level of the liquid on top of the grain bed.  Also, you should read
George Fix's latest comments about the BrewMagic system which says
that other RIMS systems he has seen have had foaming and HSA and
astringency problems, but the BrewMagic has none of them.  These were
the last ones he made here in the HBD.

There is a file of information in archives on sierra.stanford.edu
regarding RIMS.  I got lots of good information about RIMS there, as
well as from asking questions here and in r.c.b.

If you have any other specific questions, ask away, I would be happy
to answer them.

dion

Dion Hollenbeck (619)675-4000x2814     Email: hollen at megatek.com
Staff Software Engineer     Megatek Corporation, San Diego, California

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Date:          Thu, 31 Mar 1994 14:21:56 CST
From: "DANIEL HOUG" <HOUGD at mdh-bemidji.health.state.mn.us>
Subject:       copper ingestion

In reply to Roger Lepine's query regarding copper and vinegar 
producing a toxic substance, here's more than you probably wanted to 
know.

Essentially, the acidic (as opposed to acetic!) vinegar has the 
potential to leach copper from any copper utensil if there is 
sufficient contact time.  The Safe Drinking Water Act (SDWA) regulates 
copper as a contaminant if it is found at levels over 1.3 mg/l in 
drinking water.  Please understand, copper is also an essential trace 
element in our diet so don't get alarmed at the thought of copper in 
your brew or water supply.  Copper poisoning of individuals has 
occured in carbonated beverage dispensors when the acidic carbonated 
water in a post-mix carbonator has backed up into the supply water 
line due to the lack of an appropriate backflow preventer.

What does this mean for us as homebrewers?  Probably not too much.  I 
use a copper wort chiller, immersed in boiling, acidic wort and I 
don't feel it is a problem due to the short contact time (however, 
notice how shiny clean it comes out?!!?).  One situation where it 
definately would be a problem is where there is extended contact time 
ie in a fermentation or dispensing vessel, including tubing.  However 
this would also alter taste unfavorably and I doubt anyone uses 
copper containers in this manner.  Personally, I would be leary of a 
copper boiling kettle but this is strictly my paranoia because I am so 
involved in the implementation of the SDWA in my work.  Yeah, I know 
about the big gleaming copper vats at the big boys' breweries.  Just 
never, ever use a lead product ie solders in constructing equipment 
as the chronic and acute toxicity levels are far lower and much more 
consequential.

Dan Houg       daniel.houg at health.state.mn.us

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Date: 31 Mar 94 23:36:00 GMT
From: korz at iepubj.att.com (Algis R Korzonas +1 708 979 8583)
Subject: IrishMoss/Beer&Light/GrainBedDepth/Underpitching/DryIce/CherryBeer

Jason writes:
>An instructer told me that Irish Moss    
>would help to clear up the beer.  Ideas on this?  Is it true?  If
>so, at what stage do you add it to the wort and how much do you
>add?

It will make your beer clearer if you have chill haze (haze that appears
only when the beer is chilled).  There are ways to reduce the proteins
and tannins that cause chill haze without Irish Moss and I would suggest
looking them up in Miller's or Papazian's books before trying Irish Moss.
Irish Moss is used in the last 15 minutes of the boil and helps proteins
coagulate, taking them out of solution.  The recommended amount is 1/8 to
1/2 teaspoon for a 5 gallon batch, depending on how much protein you have
to start with (too much Irish Moss can make your beer cloudier) and refined,
flaked IM is much better than powdered and/or unrefined.

**********
Keith writes:
>In HBD #1385 Al mentioned that wavelengths of light other than UV can also
>be harmful to beer.  This is the first time I have heard that.  Anyone have
>any more info?

I looked for a file I knew I used to have that contains an bunch of info about
light and beer.  It came from a series of posts about this subject about three
or four years ago in HBD so you should be able to get it out of the archives.

Offhand, it's easy to see that UV is not the only culprit because:

1. UV is not transmitted very well through standard glass, so the bottle
should be enough protection if UV was the only problem, and

2. Fluorescent lights will skunk beer as well as sunlight and they don't
give off much UV (otherwise we would all get nice tans at work, right?
UV fluorescent lights are made of special glass (quartz?) and you can get
them for the office -- there have been studies...).

*******
Mike writes:
>My suspicion is that the lesser grain bed depth is the
>main culprit.  I would estimate that the depth dropped from 6"-7" to about
>4".  Can anyone comment on this phenomenon?  What is the optimal grain bed
>depth?

I would agree that the grain bed depth was the culprit.  I've read (but
forget where) that the optimal grain bed depth was 18 inches and that
number just stuck in my head.  I believe it was associated with a micro-
brewery or brewpub, but if our screen size was similar, then the ideal
grain bed depth should also be similar, no?  Consider that if we used the
same screen type as a micro, then we could picture our home setups as being
one small cylinder of grain cut out of the micro's giant (by our standards)
laeuter tun.  Makes sense to me...   On the other hand, the easymasher
screen is centrally located and a much finer mesh, so maybe the numbers
would be quite different?

*******
Sam writes:
>Someone mentioned in yesterday's digest that pitching a straight 
>packet of Wyeast into 5 gallons is underpitching.  Okay, I believe you, 
>but what do I do about it.

The answer is: make a starter.  The way I do it is:

1. a week before brewing, I pop the Wyeast package

2. the package usually puffs up in two days, even if it's older

3. make up a 16- to 32-ounce mini-batch of 1.030 beer (I made up a chart
I keep on the wall that shows me how many ounces of Dried Malt Extract for
each size of starter) -- I just boil it for about 10 minutes and then
force-cool with ice to room temp

4. put it in a sanitized bottle (I used to use Chimay bottles, but now I
just make the starter right in an Erlenmeyer flask, which sanitizes it)

5. aerate it well, pitch the yeast, affix an airlock

6. let that ferment out (usually four or five days at 72F)

7. when it's time to pitch it into the batch, swirl up the yeast from the
bottom of the bottle and pour it in

Now, technically, this too is underpitching, but it's a lot better than
just pitching from the package.  Technically, you would want to add your
16 ounce starter to a 3/4-gallon starter and then use that in a 5-gallon
batch.  If you are concerned about adding 3/4 gallons of spent starter to
your beer, you could just start three days earlier, let the yeast in the
starter settle out and then dump off most of it before swirling up the
yeast at the bottom.

>Is [dry ice] pure enough to just toss into my wort 
>in order to cool it.

I've heard it is not very sanitiary -- mold spores, some yeasts and some
bacteria can survive.

>I was going to use 7 pounds of amber malt 
>extract, seven pounds of cherries, a small amount of bittering hops 
>(cascades-7.5% AA), and maybe a half pound of crystal with a Lovibond 
>rating of sixty.  I am shooting for an ale with a slight cherry aroma and 
>flavour

Sounds good to me.  I think you have the right idea -- I judged fruit beers
in the AHA 2nd round last year and the winner had LESS fruit flavor/aroma
than MOST of the losers!  It's supposed to be beer, after all.  As a data
point, for a really intense cherry flavor/aroma, I used 13 pounds of dark,
sweet, Washington cherries with 3.5 gallons of purecultured Lambiek.  I
figure that about half amount would have been a gentle cherry flavor/aroma.

Important:

1. sanitize the cherries somehow -- I froze, then dipped them in
boiling water for a few seconds,

2. don't add them till the secondary so the main ferment does not scrub
out all the cherry flavor/aroma, and

3. use a BIG blowoff hose or have 50% headspace in your secondary!

Al.

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Date: Thu, 31 Mar 1994 16:29 PST
From: TARVINJ at axe.humboldt.edu
Subject: fruit beer

Summer is coming and I am planning to brew many fruit beers.  Blackberries
are particularly attractive to me for this, not only for their delicious
flavor but also because they are free for the picking.  I also have
raspberry bushes, though I am not sure whether I will get enough fruit
for even one batch of beer.  I have also heard of a farm near my home where
blueberries can be picked for a fraction of the grocery store price.
Some research in this area has indicated that putting the fruit into the
wort before fermentation results in a loss of fruit flavors and aroma so
I found and plan to use the following method: add the fruit to the secondary
fermenter before racking the beer into it and then rack the fruit over the 
beer.
Anyway, my question is how do I avoid bacterial infection in this process?
Here are some ideas I have heard/thought of:
1.  crush and pasteurize the fruit at about 170 F for 20-30 minutes
this will kill a lot of germs but will it kill a lot of the flavor as well?

2. Autoclave it in jars at the lab where I work.  But how long and at what
temperature?  And will the lingereing Odo-clave taste get into my beer?

3. pressure cook it in jars.  How much water in the pressure cooker?  How 
long?

4.  Just wash it well and do a lot of praying?

Comments on these methods and other suggestions would be very apprectiated.

Thanks a lot.
Jay
Tarvinj at Axe.humboldt.edu


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Date: Thu, 31 Mar 1994 19:33:30 -0500 (EST)
From: "Tim Tillman (BIO)" <tillman at chuma.cas.usf.edu>
Subject: Beer IRC?


I recall reading somewhere that there is an IRC (Internet Relay Chat) 
devoted to beer and/or homebrewing.  This is suppose to be something 
like CB on CI$ or RTC on GEnie.  Of course, I could be really confused. 
Could someone give me the information.  Email responses are OK.
 
Thanks! 
 
Tim
 


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Date: 31 Mar 94 23:38:00 GMT
From: korz at iepubj.att.com (Algis R Korzonas +1 708 979 8583)
Subject: Chillers Compared/Re: Is this an OK way to brew?

[END] writes:
>The coiled copper wort cooler is a fine invention, but most people are
>using it incorrectly and inefficiently.  I siphon the wort *through* the
>coil with the cold water, snow, ice, blue ice or whatever, in a large pot
>on the outside.

I'm afraid I must disagree.  Neither less efficiently nor incorrectly --
there are three basic types of wort chillers: 1) immersion, 2) counterflow,
3) the kind you describe.  The counterflow-type chiller is slightly more
efficient than the other two, and type-2 and type-3 chillers produce
slightly more compact cold break.

>First I siphon about a gallon of
>B-Brite through this system, which sufficiently sterilizes the inside of
>the copper tubing and also the secondary.

Again, I think you may just be lucky -- the recommended contact time
for sanitation with Sodium Percarbonate-based sanitizers like B-Brite and
One-step is 15 minutes.  Sure 9 out of 10 batches there may be no problem,
but I'd rather not risk it.  Also, I'm pretty sure that Percarbonate will
do a number on copper -- have you looked at the inside walls of the chiller
lately?

>After the boil, I strain the wort into another 5-6
>gal. container and set it beside the pot in the darkroom sink. Additional
>hops can be added now if desired, so long as they are fine enough not to
>plug up the tubing. Then, I siphon the wort through the coil and allow the
>cooled wort to splash foamily into the secondary which is sitting on the
>floor, hence much lower.

I just counted two transfers, from kettle to container and then from
container to fermenter.

>The temperature will probably be down around
>80^F and yeast can be pitched immediately.

Hmmm?  What if it's not?  What if it's 90F or 60F?  With an immersion chiller,
you can run warm water through it to warm it back up if you overshoot (like
I did last Monday night).  Also, the cold break that formed during the
chilling is now in your fermenter -- with my immersion chiller, the cold
break can be left in the kettle.  If you want to let it settle and then go
to a fourth container, that would be four transfers for your method versus
one transfer with mine.

It's not wrong to use an immersion chiller the way I do -- it's just different
than the way you do.  I have weighed the pros and cons and prefer to immerse
the chiller into the wort (which will definitely sanitize the chiller).

*******
Jonathan writes:
>For every 5 gals of beer I want to make I boil 1 gal 
>of water with 1 tsp. of gypsum, 3/4 tsp. citric acid, and 1 tsp. of salt 
>for water treatment.  I use 8# of dried malt, and 1-1/2 # grain. I hold the 
>temperature at around 150 for an hour or so then bring it to a boil, add 

Since you are acidifying your water, I assume that the "grain" is malted
barley (i.e. pale ale or pils malt).  If it's crystal malt, then there's no
reason for adding the water treatments -- the malt itself will drop the pH
into the right range unless you have a lot of carbonates in your water.
You don't mention straining out the grain -- removing it before the boil
will remove a lot of astringency you would be getting if indeed you boil
the grain.

>the final hops, and let it sit (unheated) for around 20 mins. I sparge it 
>through a strainer, using the rest of the water to rinse the mash/wort. 

Why let it sit around?  Surely it won't cool to a reasonable temperature
in that time and this will only increase the amount of DMS that is produced.
Running hot wort through a strainer is a guaranteed way to create Hot-Side
Aeration problems (sherrylike/cardboardy flavors/aromas).  Your beer would
improve greatly if you first cooled the wort with an ice bath or with
a chiller.  If your water is chlorinated your beer would further improve
if you pre-boiled and then chilled the 4 gallons in the fermenter.  The

>This also cools the wort sufficiently to allow pitching the yeast. I use a 
>starter of 7 grams dried yeast (per 5 gals) that I make as I prepare the 
>wort, putting the yeast in the starter at 90 degrees. Primary fermentation 

According to three major dry yeast manufacturers, you should rehydrate
your yeast in sanitized 90-110F water, not a starter.

>is done in a garbage pail (hence the name "Garbage Pale Ale") and after 
>the foam settles, (usually 2-3 days) rack it into carboys, let it stay
>there as long as I can stand it, and bottle with 3/4 cup corn sugar per
>5 gal. The beer always turns out clear and tasty. Any feedback welcome!

This procedure can make good beer.  Try the changes I propose and see if
it's not even better.  Regarding the level of scientific orientation, I
enjoy both the art and the science of brewing... others may just like the
art.  We all work together via the HBD, other electronic forums and via
books/magazines to share what we've learned and read.  You don't have to
know Krebs cycle to brew a prize-winning Scottish Ale.  You have posted
your process and I've suggested some changes -- you might try them and
then either like or dislike the results.  I know the science behind the
Hot-Side Aeration (and would refer you to George Fix's article on it in
a recent Zymurgy if you want more details) but all you really need to
know is that cooling before aeration is what you need to do to reduce it.
If you like the results, then you don't need to know the science to benefit
from the process improvements.

Al.

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Date: Thu, 31 Mar 1994 20:59:00 -0500 (EST)
From: Patricia Doran - HTMG/W94 <pdoran at acs.ryerson.ca>
Subject: A smaller airlock



I recently began homebrewing and while I have had success in producing 
both pale and dark ales, I would like to take the big leap and brew some 
real good lager.  In my basement I have a small refrigerator (approx. 24" 
high) which I believe would be ideal for use as a lagering fridge.  My 
problem is this:  while my glass carboy fits quite nicely in the fridge 
on its own, once the airlock is in place (I have a standard airlock, 
approx. 2" high) the combined carboy-airlock unit is about 1.25" to tall 
to fit upright in the fridge.  While I might be able to remedy the 
situation by tilting the carboy, what I would really like to do is to get 
a smaller (i.e., shorter) airlock so that the unit can stand upright.  My 
questions are: a) does anyone know of a short airlock that is readily 
available - visits to my local homebrew stores in Toronto have been 
futile; and b) would using a shorter airlock be o.k. as far as the 
brewing process is concerned?  Any info or suggestions would be greatly 
appreciated.

PDoran 

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Date: Fri, 1 Apr 1994 01:28:29 -0600 (CST)
From: schnitz at wuecona.wustl.edu (Mark Schnitzler)
Subject: Rusty Kettle

I have aquired a 6 gal enamel pot. Unfortunately some of the enamel in the
bottom of the pot is gone and a thin layer of dark rust is there instead.
Coments on its viability as a brewpot and thoughts on fixes?

Thanks

Mark

*--------------------------------------------------------------------------*
| Mark Schnitzler                                 schnitz at wuecona.wustl.edu|
*--------------------------------------------------------------------------*


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End of HOMEBREW Digest #1387, 04/01/94