FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Rob Gardner, Digest Janitor


Contents:
  Liquid Yeast and Aeriation (William_L._King.Wbst311)
  xtract Oktoberfest (Mark A Fryling)
  Antique Bottle Capper ("Bob Pizzano")
  Microbrewed using extracts ("I don't know whose back's that strong, maybe find out before too long.  04-Apr-1994 0917 -0400")
  Kegging FAQ??? (Robert Schultz)
  Re: Tumbleweed and malt prices (Jim Busch)
  I'm too lazy for a starter (Eugene Sonn)
  Water (Kinney Baughman)
  Decoction mash  / Humor impairment (Lee=A.=Menegoni)
  Re: Decoction and yeast (Jim Busch)
  Zima - a delivery vehicle for alcohol (Peter Karp)
  Patron Saint of Brewing (Aaron Morris)
  humor impairment on the info superhighway (Lee=A.=Menegoni)
  Yeast Starter Use Proven (Dion Hollenbeck)
  DWI etc. One last one for the road (Murray Knudson)
  GW Kent Lactic Acid (ROSS)
  IrishMoss/slow ferments/overcarbonation/allgrainVSextract/lowOG (Algis R Korzonas +1 708 979 8583)
  Extract vs. All-grain ("Anderso_A")
  metallic taste (Mark Youman)
  Reusing Mini Kegs (GNT_TOX_)
  Alcohol Content (Brian J. Cecil)
  Flasks/Grain Shelf Life (David Hyde)
  Ball valves for Firestone Kegs ("John S. Soutter")
  Raspberry Porter (Lawrence Snyder)


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----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: 	Mon, 4 Apr 1994 05:08:01 PDT
From: William_L._King.Wbst311 at xerox.com
Subject: Liquid Yeast and Aeriation 

Greetings:
I'm still on the learning curve as an extract brewer, and would like to
graduate to liquid yeasts.  How important is wort aeriation when using these
yeasts? Miller stresses the importance of shaking up the liquid packs once they
have been activated, which makes sense to me. But what about his advice about
using his carboy aeriation gizmo which utilizes an aquarium pump and an
aeriation stone? Is this really necessary?   With dry yeast I have been taking
no real great pains to aeriate the wort after pitching.  Miller suggests a
vigorous stirring every hour for five hours after pitching if this gizmo isn't
utilized. I have been lazy, but with 6 batches, I haven't had a problem with
this. Are liquid yeasts less tolerant in this sense?
Thanks
Bill King

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Date: Mon, 4 Apr 94 8:21:00 EDT
From: Mark A Fryling <mfryling at magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu>
Subject: xtract Oktoberfest

Howdy,

Paul Shumacher posted a request for an extract based Oktoberfest recipe last 
week.  Because I have seen several requests for this style, I thought I'd post 
our recipe for general viewing.  This was our first true lager (fermented at 
about 45 F) and I think it turned out very well.  Its kind of like Wurtzberger 
Hoffbrau Oktoberfest.

Ohio Oktoberfest

2.5gal filtered water
1.5 lb 90L Crystal Malt (american 2 row)
     - Start water cold with crushed grain in a grain bag.  When water reaches
       about 170 F, remove the grain.
     - When water reaches boil, add:
6.6lb Northwestern Gold liquid malt extract
850g (about 2lb) of Laaglander extra light dry malt extract
     - Stir well and bring back to boil
13 IBU of Hallertau Northern Brewer whole leaf plug (7.5% AA, 60 min)
12 IBU of Tettnanger whole hops (4.2% AA, 60 min)
     - Boil 45 min, then add
3 IBU Hallertau Hersbrucker whole leaf (2.3% AA, 15 min)
Pinch of Irish Moss
     - Boil 15 min, remove from heat and force cool in ice bath.
     - Dilute to 5 gal after cooled to 70F  and pitch 700ml starter of
       Wyeast 2124 Bavarian Lager
     - Ferment 7 days in primary, then lager 6 weeks in secondary at about 40F.
     - Bottle with 0.75 cups glucose (boiled in about 1 cup water)

Notes:
 - I dont have any gravity readings on this beer (we usually dont bother) but I
  agree with the net opinion that Laaglander extract is not very fermentable 
  and leaves a fair amount of body in the fermented beer.  I like this in 
  certain styles and I think it is particularly appropriate in this beer.

 - I think that the absence of finishing hops is important to getting the right
  amount of malt flavor and aroma for this style.  I think that soft, slightly
  sweet maltiness is what makes this beer.

 - Sorry about the mixture of measuring units, I would use all metric if things
  were sold that way.


Hope this post is of general interest

Mark Fryling
<mfryling at magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu>

"Never let your sense of morality prevent you from doing whats right"
I. Asimov

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Date: 4 Apr 1994 07:59:19 -0500
From: "Bob Pizzano" <Bob_Pizzano at star9gate.mitre.org>
Subject: Antique Bottle Capper

                      Subject:                              Time:  7:42 AM
  OFFICE MEMO         Antique Bottle Capper                 Date:  4/4/94
This weekend I was shopping in some antique funiture shops and found an old
bench top bottle capper. The women I bought is from said it was made around
1920-1930.  It came with about 100 old bottle caps which used cork as the
gasket material (instead of plastic).  

I paid $15 for it and was wondering if anyone might know the history of the
manufacturer or if it might be worth anything to a collector.  It is made out
of stainless steel (or similar) and the base is stamped with a diamond symbol
with the word "CLIMAX" in the middle and "TRADE MARK" on the top.  It is
about 16 " tall.  It is in working condition but does not seem to cap as
easily as my double lever capper.

 -Bob Pizzano
MITRE Corp, Bedford, MA



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Date: Mon, 4 Apr 94 09:21:01 EDT
From: "I don't know whose back's that strong, maybe find out before too long. 04-Apr-1994 0917 -0400" <ferguson at zendia.enet.dec.com>
Subject: Microbrewed using extracts

When I was in Scotland last November, I toured a small brewpub that did
all of its brewing using extracts.  They produced a fine array of brews,
which I could not discern between the many all-grain pubs I've been to
across America and in Europe.  It is possible to produce great brews using
extracts - I did it for 2 years.  Now I'm all-grain - not nearly as easy
as extract, and the results so far are inconclusive.

I support any brewpub that makes good brew.  I don't care if they make
it with extracts or all-grain.  Good brew is good brew.

jc ferguson

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Date: Mon, 04 Apr 1994 07:58:00 -0600 (CST)
From: Robert Schultz <Robert.Schultz at usask.ca>
Subject: Kegging FAQ???

	I have a note about a kegging FAQ under production.
	I tried responding to the orginiator (but my mail bounced
- -- IN%"trl at photos.wust1.edu").

	Can anyone tell me what the status of the Kegging FAQ is?

Rob.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~ Robert.Schultz at usask.ca, Senior Research Analyst, University of Saskatchewan ~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~ "I'm going off half-cocked? I'm going off half-cocked? ...                   ~
~  Well, Mother was right - You can't argue with a shotgun."     - Gary Larson ~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

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Date: Mon, 4 Apr 1994 10:46:26 -0400 (EDT)
From: Jim Busch <busch at daacdev1.stx.com>
Subject: Re: Tumbleweed and malt prices

Kinney took time out to reply to my questions:

> Subject: The economics of Tumbleweed
> 
> now a 4 bbl. brewery.  Though bigger, we're not big by any stretch of the 
> imagination which means we still buy ingredients at basically wholesale 
> homebrewing costs.  We can only get pale malt at $17.60 a 55 lb. sack.  
> Plus, it costs us another $13.50 to get it shipped to Boone.  That's $31.10 
> for 55 lbs. of grain (.56/lb.) and there's no way around it for us.  We 
> live in the extreme northwest corner of the NC mountains.  This is not your 
> everyday metropolitan center! :-)  
> 
> By the time we get our malt extract, it costs us .95 a pound.  

OK, now things make more sense.  At 1-4 BBls, I see that the biggest factor
is in the quantity that you can order vs. price.  A semi of grain would
last quite some time at 4 BBl a brew.  The numbers I see near DC are for
a semi at a time.  
> 
> Some might say, what's 4 hours to take the chance of making a better brew?  
> Well, that's an extra day in a two brew week.  Personally, I have another 
> life, in fact two other professional lives outside of Tumbleweed.  I don't 
> have an extra day in the week, plain and simple. 

Amen to that!  Whats *your* free time worth, per hour?  Mines pretty 
valuable.
> 
> have in ours.  Granted, he didn't try a Liberty Ale on tap.  I'd die to get 
> that kind of hop character in our beers.  But I'm not sure the average beer 
> drinker in Boone, NC would appreciate it. 

Actually, if you want that, just use a nylon hop bag, 1 oz of Cascade and
put it right in the 5 gal corny keg.  If the keg can sit a few days, your
there.  Its one of the few advantages you have with using corny kegs (you
must be really sick of cleaning those things!).  
> 
> about the operation.  We have so many people wanting to come to Boone to 
> check out the operation and pick our brains so they can start up similar 
> operations that we have had to start charging consulting fees. 

Now, you've got me thinking :-)

Good brewing,

Jim Busch

PS:
> Subject: Sterilizing chillers

Another common way of doing this (if you have real hot water or a hot 
liquor tank) is to merely flow the hot water through the hose to essentially
pasteurize the line.  I still use cleaners and sanitizers, but my line is
not used every day.  The local micro uses 200F water to pasteurize the
lines that carry the wort from the oxygenation/chiller to the unitanks.


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Date: Mon, 4 Apr 1994 10:53:23 -0400 (EDT)
From: Eugene Sonn <eugene at sccs.swarthmore.edu>
Subject: I'm too lazy for a starter

A question for the HBD braintrust:  other than having a delayed take off, 
would it be all that bad for me to pitch some hibernating yeast directly 
into my wort rather than making a starter first?  You see, I set aside 
some yeast from a previous batch when I had planned to pitch it within a 
few days, but as luck would have it, I got too busy to brew the next 
batch (yeah I know that's heresy) and now I have some yeast which has 
settled out for about three weeks.  The reason I'm too lazy to make a 
starter is that would mean a special trip into Philly when I really don't 
have the time.  I'll do it if necessary, but it seems to me that 
eventually my batch will take off if I use this yeast.  BTW, this yeast 
came from a batch which was pitched with a new Wyeast starter, so it was 
pretty fresh from the last batch.

Thanks in advance,

Eugene
	

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Date: Mon, 04 Apr 1994 10:53:52 -0400 (EDT)
From: Kinney Baughman <BAUGHMANKR at conrad.appstate.edu>
Subject: Water

 A couple of days ago, I said:

 >Town water departments are notorious for playing with the water.
 >That translates into wildly variable extraction efficiencies.

 And Jack asks:

 >Is this just a rhetorical statement to be taken with a large dose of salt?

 >If not, I would be interested in what you consider "wildly variable"  and
 >just what it is they do to caues this and why I never see this in my "town".

 My statement stems from the time I went to Burlington, VT to brew beer with
 Greg Noonan at his pub.  We started doing our water tests and the water was
 way off the usual mark.  An hour later we tested again and got different 
 results.  Radical changes in the water in the space of an hour is what I call 
 "wildly variable".  We scratched our heads for a while and called the water 
 department.  It appears they were either (1) sending a descaler down the 
 lines or (2) making changes at the plant that were affecting the water.  I 
 forget which. 

 I'm not sure how often they do such things because I don't live on a town 
 water line and haven't in ten years but the experience has stuck with me.  
 I guess we were just lucky that day.  Whatever the case, it was no fun trying 
 to get our water back in line. 

 I don't know about Chicago but down south many town water departments have 
 problems with their water in the summer when the algae "blooms".  Open the 
 tap and it tastes like you're drinking pond water.  

 And finally, every water department has to shoot more than usual amounts of 
 chlorine down the lines every now and then.  This usually occurs when they've 
 had an "e coli" outbreak, one of the more common forms of bacterial 
 contaminations in public water supplies.  Just last week I gagged at the 
 water fountain at school because it tasted like I was drinking clorox.
 
 Sure.  There are methods for dealing with each one of these situations.  The 
 main point is that you can't take your water for granted.  Water tests every 
 day are an essential part of the commercial brewing process if you care at 
 all about product consistency.  Here again, I don't worry that much about it 
 at home.  I can live with the differences in batch to batch.  But being 
 responsible for 120 gallons of beer makes you worry about things that don't 
 bother you as much when you brew at home.  RDWAHAHB doesn't cut it for me at 
 Tumbleweed.  I worry all the time.

 Still, water isn't the main reason we use extracts for our fermentables at 
 Tumbleweed.  Economics drives that decision for us at the moment.  I have 
 enough to worry about as it is.  I'm just happy that, for the moment, water 
 isn't as important as it would be if we were doing all-grain. 

- --------------------------------------------------------------------------
  Kinney Baughman                      |      Beer is my business and
  baughmankr at conrad.appstate.edu       |      I'm late for work.
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------
 

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Date: Mon,  4 Apr 94 10:53:13 EDT
From: Lee=A.=Menegoni at nectech.com
Subject: Decoction mash  / Humor impairment

Decoction Mashing:
Two benffits of decoction mashing are increased yeild due to gelitanization 
of starch that would not otherwise get converted and increased melanodin 
formation from the boiling process.

Like other HBD posters I may just be parroting the conventional wisdom that 
gets published once and repeated many times in other publications and thus 
gets cannonized as truth... but this melanodin formation is supposed to 
yeild a maltier flavor and aroma in the beer.  How effective the decoction 
is may be influenced by the type of grain used.  The D-C Belgian
Pilsner malt is lower in the precursor that produces the malty aroma/flavor 
[see 1st issue Brewing Techniques, George Fixes analysis of these grains] 
relative some under modified German strains thus the effect of decoction 
mashing may have minimal impact on the flavor and aroma of the final 
product.

Why commercial brewers don't use it.  Cost, it requires much more energy, 
material handling and time.  The real question is do brewers like Spaten 
use it for any of their brewes, ie Ur Marzen.   One of the finest Pilsners 
I have had is brewed in Brattleboro Vt at McNeil's brew pub, he does a 
decoction mash for this brew.

Faster decoction mashing:  With my setup and a thick mash I have found that 
it takes a decoction of about 30% the grist to go from acid rest to protein 
rest and 50% to 60% of the grist to go from protein rest to sach rest 
temps.  Thus in a decoction with two kettle mashes I boil:
 .3 + (.7 * .55) = .685 = 68.5% of the grist

If I do a single kettle mash then I boil about 55% of the grain.  Given 
that it takes about 1 hour for each kettle mash and boil I have begun doing 
single decoctions since I am getting only a 13.5% increase in decocted 
grains.  

I also get to mash out temp by adding boiling water, I wonder if this is an 
over simplification?  My reasioning is that any melanodin formation caused 
by boiling starch free wort would occur in the main boil and I can save 
another half hour.
half hour 
  



   


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Date: Mon, 4 Apr 1994 10:59:52 -0400 (EDT)
From: Jim Busch <busch at daacdev1.stx.com>
Subject: Re: Decoction and yeast

George writes:
> Subject: Is Decoction Worth It?
> 
> I was conversing with a couple of local professional
> (microbrewery) brewers today on procedures & such,
> and I asked whether they planned to do decoctions
> to brew their upcoming pilsner product.  I was
> intregued by their answer that decoctoions are not
> really necessary on a commercial scale, since they
> can automatically & precisely control the mash 
> temp. I opined that some (Noonan) would argue that
> a decoction process provides many benefits other
> than temp. control (i. e., reduction of the 
> undesirable mash elements to precipitable
> form, etc.).  They were unimpressed.  They related that
> at their alma mater (UC Davis) brewing program they
			^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^!!!!!
> had been taught by the masters that decoction
			^^^^^^^^^!!!!
> methods were introduced in the dark past before
> automated temp control was available, and other
> claims for its efffects are spurious if not specious
> (my adjectives).

OK, firstly, you got the gospel according to Dr. M. Lewis,
UC Davis guru.  If you went to Germany and asked Dr. Narziss
of Weihenstephan, you'd probably get the opposite lecture.
Historically, malts and processes were different, and it
is true that good lagers can be made using step mashing 
techniques.  Also, in Germany more brewers are abandoning
Decoction due to the increased costs of energy.  Despite 
this, decoction brewing adds something to the character of
the beer.  Blind tests will show differences, the question
becomes is it worth it, and are the tastes signigficant enough
to matter?  Each brewer is the judge of this, 99.9% of the patrons
wont know diddley about the differcnce.  That said, I feel
that decoctions are still strongly advised in Weizens, and 
Bock beers, and some argue in Pils/Exports/Helles.  

> Subject: Slow Ferment
> 
> Brewers,
> 
>   I've been having some problems with very slow ferments with liquid
> yeasts (greater than 2 weeks for gravities in the 1.050 range).  I've been
> poring over my brewing procedures, trying to figure out what I do
> differently.  The best explanation seems to be this:  I make a 1.050
> starter (32 oz.), into which I pour the contents of the swelled yeast
> packet.  I then let it sit for 12-24 hours, until the kraeusen on the
> starter is large and active, then I pitch.  I see very quick starts of
> fermentation, but then they slow down for a long, long wait.  Should I let
> the starter go for a few days and let it ferment out more?  Could this be
> the problem?  Any advice would be helpful, and e-mail is fine.

If the starter is fermenting well at pitching time, I suspect the problem
is inadequate aeriation of the wort.  12 hours seems too short for the
starter, so this may also be a problem. A foamy head is not neccessarily
the indication that the yeast is ready.  By all means, aeriate the wort
plenty.

Good brewing,

Jim Busch


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Date: Mon, 4 Apr 1994 11:01:11 -0400
From: Peter Karp <karp at cs.columbia.edu>
Subject: Zima - a delivery vehicle for alcohol


Despite my better judgment I tried a bottle of Zima the other day. I figured
even if I didn't like the stuff (can't call it beer) I could always use the
fluted bottle for my own brew. Unfortuneately the bottle is a screw cap so even
that idea did not work out. All I can say about the beverage is that it tastes
like Sprite. There is not a hint of malt flavor. The label calls itself an
alcohol beverage. This represents what I perceive as a dangerous trend in
marketing: the senseless boosting of alcohol content in a variety of beverages
(Wine coolers, malt liquors, ice beer and now soda). If the cigarette companies
are catching hell for doping their product with nicotin, its only a matter of
time before products that are essentially delivery vehicles for alcohol come
under the same attack with the potential fall-out on legitimate alcoholic
beverages.  What constitutes legitimate? I would think that any brew that is
not intentionally frozen to increase alcohol content would be considered
legitimate by most readers of this digest.


Peter



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Date:         Mon, 04 Apr 94 11:16:52 EDT
From: Aaron Morris <SYSAM at ALBANY.ALBANY.EDU>
Subject:      Patron Saint of Brewing

I thought the patron saint of brewing was Saint Paul-E!

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Date: Mon,  4 Apr 94 11:21:58 EDT
From: Lee=A.=Menegoni at nectech.com
Subject: humor impairment on the info superhighway

I forgot to add this to my last post.

I just got off the phone with my Congressman's office, Dick Sweat DNH, 
though he was unaware of the senate bill mentioned in the post on 4-1 his 
office indicated he would most likely support safe computing legislation. 
They also informed me the he is sponsoring a house bill which will prohibit 
billboards on any federally funded portion of the information super highway 
 .  


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Date: Mon, 4 Apr 94 09:11:39 PDT
From: hollen at megatek.com (Dion Hollenbeck)
Subject: Yeast Starter Use Proven

I have proven to my satisfaction that making a mini-wort starter for
my yeast is very desirable.  In the 13 batches I have done, the only 2
batches I did not make a starter were when I got yeast slurry from a
micro-brewery and that in effect was a starter.  I use dry yeast.

With the batch I brewed this weekend, I tried a new yeast (Yeast Labs
Whitbread dry) and for the first time, it had instructions on the
packet.  It specifically did not mention a starter, just rehydrate in
105F water for 15 min.  So I thought, "Well, why not, it will save me
45 minutes in the morning."  

Normally I get signs of active fermentation in my blowoff tube within
two hours of pitching (I pitch rehydrated yeast into the mini-wort
abaout 8am and then pitch the mini-wort with about 1" of krausen into
the wort about 2pm).  Using the "only rehydrate" method, it is now 36
hours after pitching and I am only getting enough activity to tell me
the yeast is not dead.

I will never again skip my mini-wort starter.


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Date: Sat,  2 Apr 94 08:23:55 PST
From: Murray Knudson <murrayk at microsoft.com>
Subject: DWI etc. One last one for the road

Well, after all the dust has settled over the April Fools Post, it 
turns out that the overwhelming majority of HBD'ers do have a sense of 
humor (88%).  Maybe the others just react more quickly.  Anyway, I did 
get some mail from one individual saying my second post (about lack of 
a sense of humor) was insulting.  If anyone else feels this way I'm 
sorry, and have included my apology to the one person for all to read:

	OK, so maybe I was a little too hard nosed about it, but there was 
definately more than
	 one "Clew" in the article including the last line which said "the 
name says it all' Lirap
	 Sloof is April Fools spelled backward.
	Besides, I was only refering to the people (and they know who they 
are) who directly
	 sent me flame about posting political stuff on the HBD.
	Sorry, I really didn't mean to ruffle feathers.

Thanks to everyone who sent me positive responses, some of them really 
were funny.  I won't waste more bandwidth posting the comments here, 
but if anyone wants 'em, mail me and I'll send you summary mail 
directly (minus the authors name).

I think a challenge is called for here...  Let's see who can come up 
with a better joke next year, or any time for that matter.

thanks again for the overwhelmingly positive responses.

Murray
murrayk at microsoft.com
	where fun is a way of life, not a lost art.

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Date: Mon, 4 Apr 1994 13:11 EDT
From: ROSS at mscf.med.upenn.edu
Subject: GW Kent Lactic Acid

Date sent:  4-APR-1994 13:05:28 

	I just bought some GW Kent lactic acid which I plan to use in making
some "lambic-type" beers.  The lactic acid is in liquid form and I believe
there are 4 oz in the container.  That is the only information provided on
the label.
	Has anybody ever used this product and would anybody know the 
concentration of the lactic acid?  Also, if I wanted to add x mg/liter
of lactic acid, is there some equivalent method of calculating the amount
to add using volume.  For instance, most mead recipes call for x tsp of
acid blend.  Otherwise, once I know the concentration, I suppose I would
have to weigh out the desired amount.

			--- Andy Ross ---
                    University of Pennsylvania

                    ross at mscf.med.upenn.edu

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Date: 4 Apr 94 18:04:00 GMT
From: korz at iepubj.att.com (Algis R Korzonas +1 708 979 8583)
Subject: IrishMoss/slow ferments/overcarbonation/allgrainVSextract/lowOG

Jeff writes:
>The recommended amount of Irish Moss is much greater than this!
>Recommended quantity for 5 gallons is 1.5 teaspoons (1/2 TABLESPOON).
>Papazian, et al's numbers on this are useless.  Nor do I see any
>evidence that too much IM will make beer cloudier, although it can
>apparently interfere with foam stand -- but not in these quantities.
>Note that the figure above is for a full-wort boil; I'm beginning to
>suspect that the numbers need to be much higher in a concentrated
>extract boil.

My source for the "cloudier" comment I made was Terry Foster's article
in the 1988 or 1989 AHA National Conference Proceedings.  In this article,
he explained how the various types of fining work and why overuse of
IM would cause haze.  I will not go into it here.  As for the correct
amount, please note that in my post, I said that the correct amount is
dependent on the amount of protein you need to get rid of.  This only
makes sense: if you did a long protein rest at 122F, you will probably 
have cut all your proteins up into amino acids and therefore will have
little protein to settle out.

>To stand on the opposite side from Al completely: Irish Moss is God!
>The correct use of IM has caused my beers to improve tremendously.

I'm not against the use of IM, rather I suggested that it was wiser to
first try to eliminate haze by reducing it's sources: tannins and big
proteins.  I used to use IM, but stopped when I began to suspect that
it was reducing the head retention in my beers.  I know that my beers
have a very slight haze, which most judges don't even bother to mention,
but when I have more time (perhaps this summer) I might try again to
experiment with IM versus head retention and haze.  I used to use
powdered IM, but now have refined, flaked IM available (which is the
type reported by George Fix to be much better than powdered).

*******
Scott writes:
>  I've been having some problems with very slow ferments with liquid
>yeasts (greater than 2 weeks for gravities in the 1.050 range).  I've been
>poring over my brewing procedures, trying to figure out what I do
>differently.  The best explanation seems to be this:  I make a 1.050
>starter (32 oz.), into which I pour the contents of the swelled yeast
>packet.  I then let it sit for 12-24 hours, until the kraeusen on the
>starter is large and active, then I pitch.  I see very quick starts of
>fermentation, but then they slow down for a long, long wait.  Should I let
>the starter go for a few days and let it ferment out more?

I would say yes.  You should also check that you are aerating your wort
enough (and your starter, incidentally).  What temperature are you
fermenting at?  I was used to 4-to-7-day ferments and then got a 14-day
one.  As it turns out, my lovely bride had turned the thermostat down!!!
What's more stupid of me was that: 1) she asked me about turning down the
thermostat - I agreed, and 2) I had a 12" diameter thermostat right next
to the carboy and I didn't notice that it read 58F -- a bit too cold for
Wyeast American Ale INDEED!

********
Tobey writes:
>I am an eager brew neophyte.

and explains that after only one day of conditioning:
>went to open the bottle, the top just flew right off and foam spewed
>everywhere!  The beer was very carbonated.  My friend tells me that in the

The operative word is: eager.  You were too eager and bottled too early,
while the beer was still fermenting.  There's no way that you should have
even normal carbonation one day after bottling unless you did not wait
for the beer to ferment out.  I suggest gently releasing the pressure
(luckly for you, you used Grolsh bottles) and resealing.  You may have to
do this a few times.  If the beer ends up flat, you've overdone it, but
can reprime each bottle (not the best course of action, but it will work).

********
Jack writes (quoting someone, sorry):
 >I asked Kinney: `Can't you brew a better beer using all-grain?'
 The answer is basically, Yes. But.....
 
 Interesting comment that should not be lost in this rosy scenario of an 
 extract brew pub.
 
 I guess my question from a business point would be, "why bother?"  It ends up 
 being an eatery with a half hearted brewery and one might just as well buy 
 good craft beer as take all the pains to make mediocre beer.
 
 >Kinney suggested that when I make my next stout, I use extract and
 specialty grains because the strong flavor would more than cover any
 flavor benefits from the pale grain....
 
 Misery loves company?
 
 > I am quite tempted to try this, even though for me, extract is 6 times more 
 expensive than DWC grain.  I am curious as to just how good an extract beer I 
 can make.
 
 Aside from satisfying your curiosity, I find it hard to understand why one 
 would be so tempted, particularly in light of his admission that one can make 
 better beer using all grain.
 

Now hold on just a minute, Jack!  Good and bad beer can be brewed from
either extract or allgrain.  Since I've started up my own business (while
still working full time at my day job) I have much less time to brew than
I used to.  Subsequently, I now brew mostly extract+specialty grain brews
and only rarely can I brew a partial mash or allgrain beer.  I contend
that, although some styles are almost impossible to brew a world-class
version using extract, with most styles it's very possible (as evidenced
by the numerous ribbons I've won in the last few years with extract beers).
In fact, both of my beers that made it to the second round of the Nationals
last year were extract (a pKriek and an American Pale Ale).

Why am I taking the time to argue this point?  Well, mostly because I don't
want extract homebrewers to feel as if they have to go allgrain to make great
beer.  Also, I don't want extract homebrewers who are having problems with
their beers to think that going allgrain will solve all of them.  You can
brew world-class beer with either.

I don't think I'll have the chance to make it to Boone in the near future
but there is a new extract brewpub not far from Chicago that I plan to visit
as soon as they're on-line.  The brewmaster is an experienced allgrain
homebrewer and I'm willing to bet that the beer will be more than respectable.
I'm confident in Kinney's brewing prowess and am sure that he wouldn't roll
anything but very good beer out of his brewery.

*****
Matt writes:
>I have been getting low specific gravities lately. For example; last 
>batch had 9 lbs of 6-row and 1 lb of crystal, mashed at 154-156 for 1hour 
>and then at 165-170 for 10 to 15 mins. My original gravity was 1.032..??
>This was for a 5.5-6 gallon batch. This has happened before. Is 

You might try mixing up the wort (don't aerate) and then checking again
 -- the heavy, high-gravity runnings come out first, followed by the low
gravity runnings, which can sit on top.  If that's not the problem, check
your pH and adjust it into the low 5's -- it could be poor conversion
due to a too-high pH.

Al.

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Date: 4 Apr 94 13:44:00 EST
From: "Anderso_A" <Anderso_A at hq.navsea.navy.mil>
Subject: Extract vs. All-grain

The following attachments were included with this message:
__________________________________________________________________
TYPE     : FILE
NAME     : EXTRACT
__________________________________________________________________


>From: arf at mcs.com (Jack Schmidling)
>Subject: All-grain, yield

>>>I asked Kinney: `Can't you brew a better beer using all-grain?'

>The answer is basically, Yes. But.....

>Interesting comment that should not be lost in this rosy scenario
>of an extract brew pub.

> I guess my question from a business point would be, "why bother?" 
>It ends up being an eatery with a half hearted brewery and one
>might just as well buy good craft beer as take all the pains to
>make mediocre beer.

Sorry Jack, but I don't agree.  Furthermore, I think that you're
guilty of falling into a line-of-thinking that, to use your own
word, is a "Momily".  I have seen quite a few postings to the HBD
which contain the statement that, "Once I switched to all-grain
brewing, the quality of my beers improved tremendously."  I don't
necessarily agree. The methodology by which a brewer provides sweet
liquor for his yeast to munch upon is but one of a whole host of
variables the brewer must determine.  It seems to me that if you
have decided to go to all the trouble of an all-grain brew that you
will have also carefully considered the brewing process as a whole. 
In doing so, I firmly believe that the single most important
concept in brewing which emerges is yeast management.  You can use
the mother-of-all EASYMASHERs (tm) with only the finest of grains
and still end up with a diseased beer if when it came time to pitch
the yeast you decided "Oh what the hell, just use that old dry
yeast packet that's been sitting in the back of the cupboard for
the last 3 years." 
     Like most homebrewers, I started out with extract.  Once I
achieved a greater understanding of the brewing process I started
to brew all-grain brews.  I enjoyed the variability and flexibility
that all-grain allows.  However, I did not see a quantum leap in
the improvement of my beers.  Depending on time limitations and the
target style, I still make some of my beers with extract.  I
definitely believe that certain styles truly benefit from a full-
mash, but if you're a hop-head who only makes Stouts & Pale Ales,
you can make very good beer with extract.  I've won homebrew awards
for both my extract as well as all-grain beers.  So far, I've won
more awards for my extract beers.
     As a test, a friend and I each brewed an identical recipe,
with the only difference being grain vs. extract.  We chose a style
which we figured would be one of the hardest to approximate with
extract.  We chose a Belgian Grand Cru.  This beer necessitated the
addition of candi sugar, and in general I would never advise adding
sugar to an extract beer due to the delta in the FAN.  A few months
later we tested the two beers against each other.  The all-grain
beer was the superior beer, but the margin of difference was quite
small.  Before anyone complains, I realize that this was not a
statistically correct sample, but it answered my question.  In a
test stacked against the extract, it proved itself to be a worthy
competitor.
     I don't know when or if I will ever be in Boone, NC and have
the opportunity to sample Kinney's beers.  But what I do know is
that I will not be surprised if he makes a superior product.  Grain
alone does not make a good beer.

Excuse me as I don my asbestos underwear,
Andy Anderson


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Date: Mon, 4 Apr 94 13:12:17 CDT
From: Mark Youman <marky at admin.stedwards.edu>
Subject: metallic taste

After about 8 weeks in the bottle, my extract/specialty grain Scotch Ale is 
developing an odd and unpleasent flavor and aroma that I can only describe as 
metallic.  I do not know if this taste has only recently developed or if it can 
now be detected because the assertive malty sweetness of this batch is mellowing
down.

While the beer is still drinkable, I surely don't want to share it with anyone.
It used to be a *much* better brew.

What is going on here?


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Date:     Mon, 4 Apr 94 14:40 EST
From: <GNT_TOX_%ALLOY.BITNET at PUCC.PRINCETON.EDU>
Subject:  Reusing Mini Kegs

I bought two mini kegs of Grolsch over the weekend.  The stuff was
delicious.  The only problem was that the only tap we had at the time
was the little gravity fed tap that came with the keg.  In order to
use it, we had to punch holes in the keg, really just one small one in
the top.

My question is, is there any way to patch these two kegs up and use
them for homebrewing.  I'd really like to reuse them if at all
possible.

Andy Pastuszak
Philadelphia, PA


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Date:  4 Apr 94 14:45:41 ES
From: Brian J. Cecil <Brian_J.._Cecil at wecnotes.semcor.com>
Subject: Alcohol Content

Does anyone know the alcohol content of the typical American Brew (Bud - Miller 
 - Coors)?  I'm usually asked that question when I introduce someone to my 
Homebrew.

Thanks & Cheers!

Brian
bcecil at wecnotes.semcor.com


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Date: Mon, 4 Apr 1994 11:32:57 -0700
From: Richard B. Webb <rbw1271 at appenine.ca.boeing.com>

Subject: Low extraction/rubbery flavors

> I have been getting low specific gravities lately. For example; last 
> batch had 9 lbs of 6-row and 1 lb of crystal, mashed at 154-156 for 1hour 
> and then at 165-170 for 10 to 15 mins. My original gravity was 1.032..??

My own method of determining gravity would lead me to expect an
initial gravity of 1.040 or so, so you're not completely out of
the ballpark. However.

The ultimate extraction that is achieved from mashing is the result
of an interaction of two types of enzymes. The enzyme that does the
main job of transforming grain starch to smaller sugar chunks
is quite happy to work at the mashing temperatures that you report.
The other enzyme (which is responsible for converting these sugar
chunks to fermentables) does not work well at higher temperatures.
Perhaps this second type of enzyme was inhibited by the high
temperatures, and failed to extract more sugar.

Did you perform an iodine test to determine if there was residual
soluable starch when you finished your mash? If there was still
starch, it probably ended up in your compost pile.

Finally, 6-row malt is best used with a program temperature
mashing sequence. Infusion mashing will work with 'well modified'
or lager malt, but extraction is more efficient using a step
infusion or decoction method.

*************************************************************


I don't know how the rubbery taste detected by Phil Bardsley
comes to be. It seems that he is using sweet wort from previous
batches for his yeast starters, and a new package of liquid
yeast added. If he were using yeast from previous batches,
then the following advice would apply.

The rubbery taste and smell can come from a yeast process called
autolysis (I pronounce it auto-lie'-sis, but there is some
controversy regarding this). At the end of fermentation, 
when the yeasts detect the end of the sugar supply, they release
enzymes which serve to distroy the cell walls of their neighboring
yeast cells, in order to metabolize these released substances.
If the 'hot-water bath' is to pasturize the saved sweet wort, then
you are putting the wort to a good use.

Washing the yeast from a previous batch is an efficient way of
using a yeast strain repeatidly, with minimal trouble.I use sterile
cold water, pre-boiled if possible, but the cooler the better. I
flame the lip of the carboy, then
I add the cool water to the carboy, and swirl the dregs around
for a bit. I then pour the newly liquified dregs into a quart jar,
(also flamed)
accompanied by a lot of cool water. I put a cap on the jar, and then
I put the jar in the fridge. The solid parts will drop out,
settling to the bottom. The fresher, livlier yeasts will remain
in suspension in the water. This liquid can then be poured out and
saved for another batch. I have often pitched this liquid
directly, without creating another starter first. But use it soon,
otherwise the effects of autolysis will become apparent. As an
experiment, try saving some of the yeast in a bottle for a while.
Cap it when you bottle, and then open it in a couple of months.
The smell is pretty sad.

Lower temperatures will slow the autolysis process for a while.
This is one of the reasons that bottle conditioned beer should be
stored at cooler temperatures. The small amount of yeast in the
bottles will undergo this process, but the small quantity of yeast
will minimize the off-flavors produced.

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Date: Mon, 4 Apr 1994 13:45:46 -0400
From: dd853 at cleveland.Freenet.Edu (David Hyde)
Subject: Flasks/Grain Shelf Life

Two questions from a frequent lurker, infrequent poster:


1)  I've scoured the Washington DC area looking for 
Erlenmyer (sp?) flasks to use for making yeast starters, 
but no luck.  Anyone have a source that doesn't required 
a huge minimum order?


2)  Due to a yeast pak that didn't swell, and a starter 
that never took off, I've found myself with about 10 lb 
of cracked grain and no way to use it.  I won't be able 
to get any more yeast for a few days, so I've put the 
grain in a (thin) trash bag.  Anyone have any idea how 
long the grain will keep like this?  It's dry and safe 
from mice and bugs, I'm just thinking that it'll absorb 
moisture from the air or go stale or something.  There 
were some questions about this a while back, I checked 
the archives, but never saw an answer.  Any clues?


Had a bottle of my first all-grain beer last night.  
Anyone want an example of what oxidized beer tastes/smells 
like?  This would be the perfect example.  Other than 
that, it's OK, and I can really see the potential of 
all-grain, but it's like liquid cardboard now.  Maybe 
I could pour it out, let it harden, and use it to 
store bottles in.


Thanks,


Dave Hyde
dd853 at cleveland.freenet.edu


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Date: Mon, 4 Apr 1994 13:14:35 -0700 (PDT)
From: "John S. Soutter" <jsoutter at willamette.edu>
Subject: Ball valves for Firestone Kegs


Hi,
I recently found myself the proud owner of a pair of stainless steel, 8 
gallon, Firestone kegs and all the ancillary CO2 gear necessary to 
properly keg beer.  Unfortunately, the kegs are lacking in the valve 
department in that there are two of them, and one valve leaks.  Does 
anyone know where I can get three of these valves?  Prices?
Secondly, will the leak have a devastating effect on the batch of beer in 
the keg?  The leak is slow, but I have no indication that the beer inside 
is contaminated by ouside air.

Reply to digest or e-mail (jsoutter at willamette.edu)

Thanks in advance,
Scott
			#	#	#	#

jsoutter at willamette.edu

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Date: Mon, 4 Apr 1994 16:20:29 -0400
From: l-snyder at mskcc.org (Lawrence Snyder)
Subject: Raspberry Porter

I am at the present time a relatively new (~ 6 months) extract brewer and
was recently in Steamboat Springs CO and had the good fortune to try an
amazingly good raspberry wheat beer in a brewpub called Heavenly Daze (also
the name of a pretty good ski run on the mountain).  They also had a really
nice porter which had a beautiful aftertaste somewhere in between coffee
and chocolate.  But what I thought was particularly tasty and worthy of
duplication was the brew obtained by mixing the two.  A raspberry porter! 
I'd really appreciate it if someone who's had experience at brewing with
fruit could send me some info on the subject as Papazian and Miller have me
confused as to when to add the fruit / extract.  Is it best to use whole
fruit?  What about risk of infection?  Do you boil with the wort, steep, or
just add it into the primary?  Also I remember a couple of issues ago on
the HBD someone talking about not adding the fruit directly in the primary
fermentation as the initial CO2 surge will scrub out the aroma. Thanks in
advance for any info. 

Larry


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End of HOMEBREW Digest #1390, 04/05/94