FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Rob Gardner, Digest Janitor


Contents:
  Agar Followup (David Knight)
  Two problems... (David Knight)
  oatmeal stout ("Corey W. Janecky")
  regarding lead and brass... ("DANIEL HOUG")
  incubators ("Corey W. Janecky")
  Job? (Jason Sloan)
  The Brass Thread Again ("Palmer.John")
  GuppyMasher(tm) (berkun)
  Chill Haze (Steve Scampini)
  Mashing In Oven Overnight (Phil Brushaber)
  HopTech Sill Here/Mashout/AB Amber Ale/Lamp for HP (Mark Garetz)
  RE: GRAIN PRICES (greg.demkowicz)
  (Hefe)weizen question (Brant Katkansky)
  bruheat (Rich Ryan)
  water chemistry (Jim Dipalma)
  (kinda) Grand Cru ("Steven W. Smith")
  Re: extract vs all grain, TB BEERS? (Lou King)
  BEER FESTIVAL UPDATE (Kip Damrow)
  RIMS parts (btalk)
  Re:  Mashing with specialty grains (Bill Hollingsworth)
  Re: spelling, British tour (Jeff Frane)
  Re: Beer Accross America (R. KEITH FRANK, DCR&D B-1222, 409-238-9880)
  Railey North Carolina & BREW PUBS etc... (flehouillier)
  D.C. Brew pubs (es76)
  Aeration: not that crucial? (Paul Sovcik)


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----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Tue, 19 Apr 94 16:02:51 EDT
From: David Knight <dknight at ren.iterated.com>
Subject: Agar Followup


Sorry for the delay in posting this, but I've been out of town for the past
week.  I got many replies to my request for information on where to buy
agar for yeast culturing (thanks to all who responded), and it really boils
down to three sources:

    1) Scientific outlets.
    2) Asian supermarkets.
    3) Health food stores.

I called some local scientific supply houses and only found one that would
sell me agar, by the pound, for about $60 per pound.  I think a pound would
probably last me the rest of my brewing life, but am not prepared to spend
$60 on a yeast culturing experiment that is supposed to save me money in
the long run.

I tried several small Asian supermarkets in Atlanta to no avail, but haven't
tried any large ones yet.  I expect to find it at some of the larger ones.
By the way, ask for 'agar-agar'.

I don't know any local health food stores so I haven't tried them either.

One of the responses I got seems particularly useful and may be of interest
to the HBD.  Here it is:

==========================================================================

From: "Charles Ewen" <p00739 at psilink.com>
Subject: agar-agar

I have before me a package of "Six Fortune Brand Delicious Agar-Agar".
I bought it at a local Oriental supermarket (they haven't become PC yet,
i.e., Asian).  It is a product of Taiwan, net weight 40gr (1.4oz.) and
cost $1.79.   If memory serves, this will make about a quart of solution,
but don't quote me on that - it's been more than a year since I had to
use the "roll-your-own" stuff (my sister got a job in a lab).  I haven't
been doing much streaking this past year; mostly just repitching my
favorite little beasties.

The only way I ever found this stuff was to talk to the American-educated
daughter of the place - her mom, dad, uncles and aunts stood around looking
mystified at me as I tried various pronounciations.   If you have to
walk the aisles looking for it, this particular brand comes packaged
in clear celeophane, with red lettering and 2 inch red bands on the ends.
It's not in a box, just soft celophane; it's about 4 inches across and
18 inches long.  This particular stuff is off-white; kind of a yellowish
beige.  Good hunting!

============================================================================

Thanks for all the great feedback.  Now if I can just find some ...


 -Dave Knight
dknight at ren.iterated.com

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Date: Tue, 19 Apr 94 16:15:47 EDT
From: David Knight <dknight at ren.iterated.com>
Subject: Two problems...


I recently took a stab at an American Light Lager (for my fiance who thinks
that Coors Light is the greatest beer in the world).  It was made with
5 lbs of pale malt and 2 lbs of rice, O.G. 1.040, F.G. 1.006, WYeast 2112
(California Lager).  Primary ferment at 70 degrees, secondary at 32 degrees
for about 3 weeks, bottled with 4 ounces corn sugar.  After bottling it
was kept at room temperature for 3 days and then at 45 degrees for 2 weeks.
There is a small amount of sediment at the bottom (not much, though).  I
tried one a few days ago and noticed two problems:

1)  *NO* carbonation.  There is a slight *pfft* sound when you open the cap,
    but when poured, the beer is totally flat.  By the way, I used Pure-Seal
    oxygen-absorbing bottle caps.

2)  The beer has little flavor (that's what I was aiming for), but a rather
    strange aftertaste that I have trouble describing.  The closest thing
    I can compare it to is milk.  I checked in the trouble shooting sections
    in Papazian and Miller and couldn't find a reference to the taste I'm
    describing.  Has anyone observed anything like this before?  It is quite
    unpleasant.

By the way, the yeast was reused from another batch (steam) -- taken from
the primary and washed using the method in the yeast faq.  Fermentation was
vigorous with no off odors.

Thanks in advance for any assistance.


 -Dave Knight
dknight at ren.iterated.com

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Date: Tue, 19 Apr 94 14:16:03 CST  
From: "Corey W. Janecky" <cjanecky at students.wisc.edu>
Subject: oatmeal stout

Does anyone out there have a good oatmeal stout recipe.  I have been doing
mostly extract brewing w/ use of some specialty grains.  I'm not equiped to
do all grain brewing so that type of recipe won't do me much good.

You can send responses to me or to the HBD.  I know there have been other
people interested in oatmeal stouts so any messages sent to me will be
compiled and posted on the HBD.

This summer I plan on picking cherries and I'm wondering if anyone has tried
the recipe in Papazian-Cherries in the Snow?  The recipe sounds really good
but is it worth the time/money?

Thanks in advance for any/all replies.

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Date:          Tue, 19 Apr 1994 15:51:05 CST
From: "DANIEL HOUG" <HOUGD at mdh-bemidji.health.state.mn.us>
Subject:       regarding lead and brass...

Here's some factual information on brass and water quality, maybe I 
can even relate this to homebrewing.  Brass is a composite metal 
containing (very) approximately 7%-8% lead to lend maleability (sp?). 
 It can contribute lead into drinking water supplies when corrosive 
water (low pH and low dissolved solids) stands for a period (6 hours 
typical) in a brass fixture.  Notice your nice chrome plated brass 
kitchen faucet.  That first slug of water you make your coffee with 
in the morning would contain the highest levels of lead given mildly 
corrosive conditions.  What is very important to note is that after 
this first draw of water is removed, very little lead is contributed 
to your drinking water by the fixture.  Look for a nation-wide public 
education campaign in the upcoming year to tell people to run their 
water until they feel a temperature change (to colder) before 
using it for drinking or cooking.
    Homebrewing?  Personally, since I pride myself on producing a 
relatively pure product, I won't increase the risk contamination by 
using components containing a harmful substance. Incidental 
contact with a brass valve, bottle filler, etc. may not be a problem. 
 Do not use it in wort kettles or mash/lauter-tuns due to the 
extended contact-time with a hot, acidic solution.

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Date: Tue, 19 Apr 94 14:39:35 CST  
From: "Corey W. Janecky" <cjanecky at students.wisc.edu>
Subject: incubators

I've been contemplating building some type of fermentation chamber/incubator
for my beer and I could use some help w/ ideas.

1.  Is this worth my time?  That is, is it that important to keep the
fermenting wort at a constant temp?

2.  What type of device can i use to regulate the temperature.  Yes, I know
I need some type of thermostat but what kind and what type of heat source
should I use.  I thought of a lightbulb but won't the light be damaging to
the fermenting beer?

3.  Are there any books out there w/ plans/directions for construction?
Since I also make wine, I sometimes have several carboys fermenting at one
time (esp. in the fall-fruit season) so I want a chamber that will hold
several carboys.

Thanks for any info you can give me.  Responses can be sent to the HBD
(others may be interested) or directly to me.  Thanks again.

Corey

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Date: Tue, 19 Apr 1994 18:11:48 -0400
From: aa3625 at freenet.lorain.oberlin.edu (Jason Sloan)
Subject: Job?



I just bombed a histology test.  I was wondering... If I can't get
into medical school, is there a job in brewing for a biology major?
I will have my bachelor's degree in July and I was just curious
what a biology major like myself would do if he doesn't get into
medicine. 
On a different note, I am a new brewer (only about 5 batches so 
far) and was wondering if there was any way to make beer of any
quality out of nothing but whole wheat grains and hops and yeast?

The reason I ask:  There has been some wheat land in my family
since the time that they came over from Germany some 120 years ago.
Now that I am making my own beer, I was curious if there would be
some way to use the grain from the fields that my great, great 
grandfather once farmed.  A somewhat romantic notion I know, but
I know that my anscestors used to brew their own and I would like
too be able to use some of this grain.

I look forward to any and all suggestions!

Much thanks.

- --
Jason Sloan
sloan01?jason at cc01.mssc.edu or aa3625 at freenet.lorain.oberlin.edu
- ---Yo ho ho and a bucket of homebrew...

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Date: 19 Apr 1994 15:13:07 U
From: "Palmer.John" <palmer at ssdgwy.mdc.com>
Subject: The Brass Thread Again

Hello Group,
The Brass/Lead scare has struck again. I am sure many of you have heard about
the brass parts used in some home wellpumps. Reportedly, one company has used
leaded brass in their pump assemblies. I don't know which company. 

Here is the lowdown on Brass.
Brass is a group of Copper and Zinc alloys that can contain Tin and Lead. The
alloys are predominantly Copper, with Zinc ranging from 5-40 percent. The Tin
is usually less than 2%, because Cu-Sn alloys are called Bronze. Lead is
unfortunatly rather common in Brass alloys, ranging from 0-10%. Brass Casting
alloys, known as Red and Yellow Brasses, commonly used for plumbing fixtures,
can contain 3-7% Lead.

The following alloys are used for plumbing/fixtures.

UNS ALLOY   Common Name      Contains Lead?     Usage
*Wrought alloys*
C23000      Red Brass              No           pipe
C24000      Low Brass              No           pump lines, flexible hose
C26000      Cartridge Brass        No           Plumbing accessories
C26800      Yellow Brass           No           same as C26000
C27000      Yellow Brass           No           same as C26000
C34900      Low Leaded Brass       0.35%        Plumbing goods
C46400-
C46700      Naval Brass            No           marine hardware
C48200-
C48500      Leaded Naval Brass     <2%          marine hardware
*Cast alloys*
C83600      Leaded Red Brass       5%           valves, pipe fittings, etc
C83800      Leaded Red Brass       6%           plumbing supplies, fittings 
C84200-
C84800      Pb'd Semi-Red Brasses  <7%          plumbing fixtures, fittings
C85200-
C85400      Leaded Yellow Brass    3%           plumbing fixtures, fittings

>From the reading that I did today, I think that the Cast alloys are going to be
some of the most common that the homebrewer will find in hardware stores. This
is not good. All I can offer is for you to keep in mind that the risk from Lead
containing plumbing and fittings is always in reference to continual use, you
know, water standing in the pipes, etc. For the home brewer, we need to
consider the time of exposure against the possible increase in leaching from
greater acidity and higher temperature. Consider that the contact area is very
small, most of us only use a fitting or two. Consider that the lead is only a
small percentage of the alloy. Consider that the lead is fully soluble in the
copper, its not hanging out in the wind, so to speak. Looking at this
information, I would say that the health risk is small. I will be happy to
answer specific questions regarding alloy content and usage. If I find out any
further information, I will post it.

John Palmer  Head Metallurgist for MDA-SSD M&P, Space Station program
palmer at ssdgwy.mdc.com   OR
palmer#d#john.ssd-hb_#l#15&22#r# at ssdgwy.mdc.com

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Date: Tue, 19 Apr 94 18:26:12 -0400
From: Daniel McMahon <dmcmahon at blanche.acq.osd.mil>

From: dmcmahon
Full-Name: Daniel McMahon at pr
Subject: Danish Brews & Pubs
To: homebrew at hpfcmi.fc.hp.com

I know that the HBD extends far and wide.
I was looking for some advice/info on brewpubs, etc.
in Copenhagen and Oslo.  I'll be traveling there 
next week.  I recall several months back a long 
post from a Danish homebrewer describing his methods.
Are you still around?
Either way I'll make notes of what I find and share
them when I get back.

    TIA,
    Dan

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Date: Tue, 19 Apr 94 15:35:59 PDT
From: berkun at guiduk.ENET.dec.com
Subject: GuppyMasher(tm)

I am compelled to offer my experiences in the all grain v. extract 
war.  I have just made the transition and won't go back - but neither 
can I paint the rosy picture of many of the more experienced all 
grain brewers.

My major complaint is with people who claim that it's "as easy as 
falling off a log", or "bending copper tubing is easy with a five 
dollar tube bender".  Ha! I say, Ha!  The tube bender is eight 
dollars at my hardware store and it still wasn't easy!!!

I have successfully brewed 2 partials and 2 all grains, each better 
than the last.  I am finally acheiving the kind of tastes that I've 
lusted after in the best professional microbrews.  I'm a happy guy.  
But it was neither easy nor cheap.

Building the GuppyMasher(tm)

My masher is a 10 gallon Coleman cooler.  It cost way too much money 
(I'm embarrassed to admit how much).  I never found any of those deals 
on coolers that other people find.  Yes, I did shop around and I did 
buy at a discount store.

So now I have a big square cooler.  I removed the pushbutton and 
started experimenting with hardware.  I got to spend a lot of quality 
time at my local hardware store and at the Eagle super hardware store. 
I can't tell you exactly what I ended up with because I assembled it 
several weeks ago and can't remember exactly what's inside and I'm 
damned if I'm EVER going to take it apart after all the effort I went 
thru to put it together and it DOESN'T LEAK! (much)  But roughly, it 
comprises a faucet, a washer, a half inch threaded tube, the existing 
washer, an O ring or two, a nut, a converter to 3/8" to a compression 
fitting on 3/8" copper tubing.  Thank you Dion H. for your bulkhead 
suggestions.

Now, copper tubing.  Copper tubing is not cheap.  10 feet for the 
manifold (including the manifold I destroyed), and misc. and 25 feet for the 
chiller.  I bought a tube bender.  Bending copper tube takes PATIENCE. 
I ended up taking the tube, the bender an a bunch of homebrew to a 
friend of a friend who can make anything (Bill Guppy, hence the name, 
GuppyMasher(tm)), and he patiently bent me up a copper manifold to fit 
inside the cooler.  It follows roughly the pattern shown in the 
rectangular cooler FAQ, but different, because it's physically impossible to 
bend copper tube to that exact pattern no matter what they tell you.  

I was able to borrow a Moto-Tool to cut the slots in the manifold.  
This is an extra $80 expense because now that I know how cool 
Moto-Tools are, I have to go out and buy one, so don't ever let one of 
these fall into your hands or you can just kiss off that money.

The astounding thing about this is that it works!  I was able to 
siphon hot water into the standing tube and underlet the mash.  And 
then it ran off pretty well through the manifold and when it slowed 
too much I just blew into the siphon tube and things picked right up.
One problem is the faucet is too high up so the output splashes, so 
I'll have to attach a tube to it and let it drap on the bottom of the 
pot receiving the runoff.  One other problem is measuring temperature. 
I seems to vary considerably depending on where you measure.  So I'm 
no where close to figuring mash temperature accurately.

Now, about that boiling vessel.  I bought the mail order 10 gallon cut 
off keg from BCI.  Good service.  But watch out - those cut off edges 
are still pretty sharp.  I used the Moto-Tool to round them off a bit 
and reduce my hearing capacity at the same time.  The keg is narrow 
and tall.  I can only see into it when I stand on tiptoe, when it's on 
my stove.  One stove burner alone is not enough to drive it to a boil.  
And this is a new gas stove.  I'm damned if I'm going to buy a cajun 
cooker, I want to do this indoors.  So I'm balancing this thing on two 
burners and wasting a lot of gas.  Also, the bottom edge has scraped 
the finish on this new stove, when my wife sees this I'm gonna pay.  
And finally, you can't put a lid on this thing.  No way.

This keg is NOT recommended.  I'm going to have to fork out for a real 
pot.  Anybody interested in the keg?  $30 plus shipping.

Chiller

Cut a cheap ($5) hose in half and use hose clamps to attach it to the 
copper tubing.  After much tightening it didn't leak too much.  For 
the first actual brewing I replaced the hose clamps with TWO hose 
clamps (on each side).  Turn off the heat, turn on the faucet and twin 
jets of cold water shot out the hose onto the cookbook shelf.  Much 
tightening of clamps later I have it down to a slow leak.  I'm going 
to have to replace the clamps with compression fittings and adaptors 
all of which will leak.  I know this.

But, amazing!  It worked, cooled the wort to 90 in 15 minutes and 
because this whole operation had taken 7 hours and we had symphony 
tickets and I had lost an hour in the morning because the first water 
I heated still had some dish soap in it, I decided that 90 was close 
enough.

The upshot:

Assembling the equipment was hard.  The whole operation leaks.  It 
cost more money than I anticipated.  I'm not done buying things. It 
is still time consuming, but I'm sure I can cut the time down with 
experience.  I haven't yet totalled up what I spent, I'm sure it'll 
take a year of heavy drinking to break even.  I can deal with this.

It makes great beer.

I love it.  I'm not interested in reducing the time too much.  This is 
my hobby.  I LIKE spending time on it.

This is a long entry, so flame me.  I had to brag to someone.

Ken B.
berkun at guiduk.enet.dec.com

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Date: Tue, 19 Apr 94 22:07:38 EDT
From: Steve Scampini <scampini at hp-and.an.hp.com>
Subject: Chill Haze

A personal observation on chill haze.  I made a California lager beer which
was clear as crystal in the bottle at room temperature but hazy as heck at
refrigerator temperatures.  I stored the last two bottles at 50 F for four
months and they were crystal clear after refrigeration.  I guess the chill
haze settled out.  
Just for fun, I was wondering if any of you chemists out there have played
with centrifuging beer samples to speed any settling?  Then I was thinking,
heck, that big `ol washing machine over there is nothing more than a
centrifuge when it is in spin cycle...and then I was thinking about a
bottle rack that fit into the machine...

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Date: Tue, 19 Apr 1994 20:35:19 -0700 (PDT)
From: Phil Brushaber <pbrush at netcom.com>
Subject: Mashing In Oven Overnight

     Recently I re-read some old HBD articles and I came across an
interesting article on mashing grain in an oven (presumably
at about 130^) in a kettle overnight.
     It would be great to gain about 1.5 hours on a typical brewday
by doing some of the work the night before.
     Has anyone done this successfully. Are their downsides in
extending the mash to 8 hours (overnight) in a oven?


                                             pbrush at netcom.com



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Date: Wed, 20 Apr 94 0:18:50 PDT
From: Mark Garetz <mgaretz at hoptech.com>
Subject: HopTech Sill Here/Mashout/AB Amber Ale/Lamp for HP

Al Gaspar wanted to know if we are still around (HopTech
that is).  Yes.  Don't know why he couldn't contact us
via email, it does seem to be working.  Address is:
mgaretz at hoptech.com (and yes Don, your memory was good).

****

Some have asked about the usefulness and method of the
mashout for picnic cooler mashers.  The purpose is to
stop enzyme activity, but I doubt this is necessary with
homebrew mash schedules.  In a commercial brewery the
mash schedules are likely to be as short as possible
(20-30 minutes) and they want to make a very consistent
product, so a quick stop of the enzyme activity is probably
necessary (they also want to control their alcohol content
as close as possible).  For us homebrewers, we usually mash
a lot longer (60-90 minutes) so most of the enzyme activity 
is done by this time anyway.  So the mashout in and of itself
is most likely unnecessaary.  I sat in on the UC Davis
advanced homebrewing class this weekend, and they recommend
no mashout.  Having said that, the sparge wants to be at
"mashout" temps to insure fast and good extraction.

As for how to do it with a picnic cooler, I am a subscriber
to the "batch sparge" method where all the sparge water is
added to the grain at once.  Therefore I get mashout for 
free because the temp of the water is chosen to raise the
entire temperature to about 170F (usually takes about 180F
water).  (is this the EasyMashOut(tm)?) But if you want to
do the traditional trickle sparge, then all you would have
to do is add some of the sparge water at boiling to raise the
mash bed to 170F and then trickle sparge with 170F water.

****

Glen Raudins asked about where to put the taps on his chest
freezer.  The side walls (at least in *my* chest freezers)
have the cooling coils in them.  The top is the only place
guaranteed to have none.  So you can put the tower there,
but make sure it doesn't bash the wall when you open the lid.
If you want to put the tap on the front (or side) here's 
how you might be able to figure out where the coils are:

1)  Take out all the beer and clean the walls.

2)  Mist some water on the walls with a plant sprayer so
you have a nice even coating of water droplets on the walls.

3)  Turn the freezer on its coldest setting (no temp controller)
and let it run for about 5 minutes.

4)  Open the lid and look at the walls. Ice should be starting
to form where the coil line is.  If there is no ice yet, let 
the freezer work some more and check every few minutes.  If
the ice layer is even, you have one powerful freezer!  Try
again with less time.

Note that I haven't tried this for the purpose of drilling holes
but my chest freezers exhibit this behaviour after I clean them
(ice freezing first along the coil lines).  It is basically
the opposite of what happens when you defrost your car's
rear window.

****

I haven't seen it here (I might have missed it), but A-B is
coming out with an Amber Ale!  It will be available shortly
in the East, and the first few weeks of May on the West Coast.
Supposedly it will be called Elk Mountain.  It will be available
only on tap.

****

Lastly, if anyone out there has a spare (or used) lamp for an
HP 8452A Spectrophotometer that they are willing to part with
inexpensively, please send me email.  (And yes, I know how to 
get a new lamp from HP, but being short of funds precludes that
just now.  I also know about most of the "alternate" lamp sources
but they aren't much cheaper than HP).

Mark



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Date: Tue, 19 Apr 94 09:55:59 -0500 [EST]
From: greg.demkowicz at circellar.com
Subject: RE: GRAIN PRICES


In the recent thread about all-grain versus extract costs, someone asked about
grain prices. Well I've been buying 50 lb bags of Schreier for $32.50 from "The
Brewmeister, 115 N. Union Ave., Cranford, N.J. 07016 Phone:908-709-9295 or
ouside N.J.:800-322-3020. He also carries both the 2 row and 6 row of Briess
for the same price and quantity. 

Yes, They do mail order.

Disclaimer: No affiliation, just a satisfied customer! 

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Date: Wed, 20 Apr 1994 01:31:05 -0700 (PDT)
From: brantk at adcmail.atlas.com (Brant Katkansky)
Subject: (Hefe)weizen question

I'm preparing to (attempt to) brew a weizen-style beer.  I'd like to
approximate the flavor and character of hefeweizen as much as possible.
Since I don't yet brew all-grain, I'm going to go with an extract +
specialty grains recipe.  I've obtained 3.3kg of 60% wheat/40% barley
LME (unhopped), and the necessary hops (haven't decided what to use yet).

What I'm looking for is suggestions on specialty grains and/or yeast.
A few months ago, I brewed a 30% wheat beer using the Wyeast Bavarian
Wheat yeast, and I was pleased with the results.  However, it doesn't
come close to the character of a hefe-.  I have heard of a new strain
from Wyeast (don't recall the name, but I'd recognize it) that supposedly
is ideal for a hefe-style beer.

Any suggestions on yeast/hops/grain selection and/or process are MOST
appreciated.

I'm out of the country with no email access until the 24th, so don't
expect any gratuitous thank you's until then. :)


- -- 
brantk at atlas.com | "Electricity is made up of very small particles called
Atlas Telecom    |  electrons, which you cannot see unless you have been
Portland, OR     |  drinking homebrew."
       --- This message printed with 100% recycled electrons ---

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Date: Wed, 20 Apr 94 08:42:32 -0400
From: Rich Ryan <ryancr at install4.swin.oasis.gtegsc.com>
Subject: bruheat


I am looking for any comments, good and bad on the bruheat. It
is a plastic bucket with a heating element in the bottom. I've
been told I can use it as both a mash kettle and a boiler. Has
anyone used one of these? What is a good price for one? I'm 
ready to make the jump to all grain and wonder if this is worth
the investment. Any info will be greatly appreciated.

Rich Ryan
ryancr at install4.swin.oasis.gtegsc.com

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Date: Wed, 20 Apr 94 09:02:34 EDT
From: dipalma at sky.com (Jim Dipalma)
Subject: water chemistry


    Hi All,

    Picking up the recent thread on water chemistry:

>>Crushed malt works very well.

>It works well to a point.  Depending on your water chemistry, it may not be
>enough, or it may be too much.

    The first few all grain batches I did took forever (2 - 2.5 hrs) for the
mash to convert, even though I was holding the temperatures in a reasonable
range (~155F).  I started checking pH, found that my tap water is ~8.0.
Further, when the water and crushed malt were combined, the pH barely budged.
I started adding gypsum to the mash, but it required several teaspoons to get
the mash pH down to a suitable range.

>Gypsum is commonly used to lower mash pH, but
>if you have lots of sulfates already in your water, it may cause some
>undesirable flavors.

    Yep, this was my experience, the addition of gypsum got the conversion
times down, but the beers were coming out with a very harsh bitterness.  I
finally had a water analysis done, the results showed my water was extremely
high in calcium bicarbonate (I have a private well).  Referring back to the
brewing books, I learned that calcium bicarb acts as a pH buffer, it's
presence inhibits acidification, which explained why the pH barely dropped
after mashing in.  I started pre-boiling the water, a ten minute boil produced
a thick layer of white, chalky precipitate in the bottom of the pot.  

>>It depends on what is causing the "high" pH but throwing a lot of gunk in to
>>get it down when it may not be necessary is not the way to go about it.

>True.

   We all seem to be in violent agreement on this point.  With the bicarb
removed, the malt acidified the mash nicely, right to 5.3 - 5.4. The mashes
reached full conversion in ~45 minutes, I stopped adding gypsum, and the harsh
flavor went away. Other than boiling the water to remove the bicarbonate, no
other treatment of mash water was required.

>Many people can
>get away with doing nothing to the water.  Others, like myself, have to make
>some adjustments which weren't obvious without a water report and some pH
>readings.

    This is the crux of the issue, some people are fortunate enough to have
water that is suitable for brewing and requires no treatment.  Jack seems to
be one of those people, as he's been successful without treating his brewing
water. My water is somewhat less than optimal, due to the alkalinity and
temporary hardness, but I still manage to brew a wide range of styles
successfully.  Like Norm, having my water analyzed, reading up on water
chemistry, and taking some pH readings at various points in my brewing process
helped me to understand what I was dealing with.

   Jeff Frane writes:
>Although Jack will apparently disagree, control over your brewing water
>is *enormously* important to an all-grain brewer, and one of the most
>essential elements in successfully brewing to style.

    I agree with Jeff, understanding the characteristics of the water you're
brewing with, and how it will impact the process and the flavor of the 
finished product is extremely important to successful all-grain brewing.
Unfortunately, it's probably the one factor most commonly overlooked and least
understood by homebrewers.

                     Cheers,
                      Jim

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Date: 20 Apr 1994 06:24:16 -0700 (MST)
From: "Steven W. Smith" <SMITH_S at gc.maricopa.edu>
Subject: (kinda) Grand Cru

  Howdy do, all.  It's share a recipe and solicit advice time once again.
Having guzzled >$10.00 of Celis Grand Cru I thought I'd try to create 
something similar.  While the resulting beer is Damned Tasty and seems 
to be on the right track, it's spices are more subtle than I'd planned.  Next 
time I'll use more coriander seed (or crush finer) and orange peel, maybe 
different hops, different yeast (advice on hops and yeast most welcome).
Without further ado, the recipe and convoluted procedure for 5 gallons of
Tooncinator Motley Cru*:

8 pounds Briess Wheat/Malt powder (2 big ziplocks)
2 pounds Vienna carapils malt (2 small ziplocks)
1 3/4 cups corn sugar
1 oz. Lublin(?) hops, A=3.1 boil (pellets)
1 oz. Hallertau hops, A=4.8 boil (pellets)
1 oz. Hallertau hops, A=4.8 finishing (pellets)
1/2 oz. coriander seed (freshly crushed)
about 1/2 oz. dried orange peel (Lawries?)
5 whole cloves (to make me feel good, imperceptable)
2 packages Red Star Ale yeast
Crystal bottled water

  Crushed and steeped carapils. >30 min  at 130F, 150F, 170F.
Sparged, increased volume to almost 4 gallons, heated and stirred in malt
powder.  Added hops in 4 portions after boil began, about every 15 minutes
until they were all in - boiled another 45 minutes after last addition.
Turned off heat, stirred in coriander seed, orange peel and cloves, started the
chiller about 2-3 minutes later.  Siphoned into carboy, added water to about
5 gallons, pitched yeast directly and shook to aereate. Wort didn't taste
unduly strange, kind of hoppy, not too spicy.

  After secondary fermentation was complete I decided it should be hoppier and 
added the 2nd oz. of hallertau pellets.  3 days later I reconsidered and 
racked off the hops.  I further decided to test out the scrubbing bubbles 
theory of hops reduction - I boiled 1 cup of corn sugar and steeped another 
tsp orange peel and added it - got a fairly vigorous fermentation for several 
more days.
  1 week after the corn sugar fiasco I added another 3/4 cup and bottled.  
Pretty good, hops are just about right, pretty light on the coriander and 
orange peel.  Very tasty after about 2 weeks in the bottle.
  _,_/|
  \o.O;   Steven W. Smith, Programmer/Analyst
 =(___)=  Glendale Community College, Glendale Az. USA
    U     smith_s at gc.maricopa.edu
* dedicated to the memory of Tooncinator, robotic driving cat from the future.

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Date: Wed, 20 Apr 94 10:15:11 EDT
From: Lou King <lking at hns.com>
Subject: Re: extract vs all grain, TB BEERS? 

>>>>> On Tue, 19 Apr 94 14:09:33 EDT, fudgemastr at aol.com said:

> A propane bruner (Cajun Cooker) 135,000 BTU, it cost me $59. (and it came
> with a groovy pot and frying basket that's great for deep frying chicken)

I've been thinking about getting one of these, but I don't want to
brew outdoors (which is recommended).  Do you brew outdoors?  If not,
what kind of safety precautions do you take (e.g., ventilation, etc)?

 -Lou King (lking at hns.com)


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Date: Wed, 20 Apr 94 06:48:36 PDT
From: kdamrow at ariel.thomas.com (Kip Damrow)
Subject: BEER FESTIVAL UPDATE


Hello HBD,
This is my final shameless plug for the "Great Arizona Beer Festival".
This event is set for this coming weekend, April 23 & 24, from 1-6pm
both days. The site is Scottsdale Stadium. Attendance is projected to
be 5,000 - 8,000 craft beer lovers. There are going to be 30-40 breweries
participating in the tastings. There also is a certified homebrew
contest. And to top it all off, there are 3 stages for live music.
$12 admission benifits two local charities. Tickets available at
Ticketmaster or at the gate. Call any of the 8 Arizona micro's for
more info.
See you there,

Kip
Micro Distributing Enterprises

usual disclaimers DO NOT apply... my company is the exclusive merchandiser
for the festival. If you are interested in "Great Arizona Beer Festival"
souvenirs (pints with all AZ logo's, T's, embroidered polo's) or my
microbrewery gift catalog -- send me e-mail.

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Date: Wed, 20 Apr 94 11:10:43 EDT
From: btalk at aol.com
Subject: RIMS parts

I had been in contact with Mark Simpson, San Diego area (if my memory works
at all) regarding some RIMS parts. 
Anyhow, I managed to lose email address. Mark , please contact me.
Bob Talkiewicz <btalk at aol.com>

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Date:         Wed, 20 Apr 94  11:45:23 EDT
From: Bill Hollingsworth <U9508WH at VM1.HQADMIN.DOE.GOV>
Subject:       Re:  Mashing with specialty grains


 Norm Pyle writes:

 > This isn't logical.  The mash contains enzymes which work to break
 > down starches into fermentable and unfermentable sugars.  The longer
 > the enzymes are allowed to work, the more fermentable sugars
 > (smaller sugars) are produced as the enzymes chop away (remember
 > Charlie's picture of the little lumberjacks?).  I can't see how the
 > unfermentable sugars in crystal malt are immune to this enzymatic
 > activity in the mash.

I agree with your theory (and I do indeed remember Charlie's picture of
the little enzymes chopping and nibbling away at the starch molecule),
which is why I posted my original question about using specialty grains
in a partial mash.  It didn't make sense to me to include specialties in
the mash, since I thought this would diminish the intended purpose of
specialty grain (again, mouthfeel and sweetness).  I just kinda figured
that with additional enzymatic activity the dextrins in crystal malt
would be even further broken down into smaller pieces of three, two, or
even one very fermentable glucose molecule.  My follow up post was only
intended to summarize the advice given to me by the various people I had
corresponded with who had opinions on the subject.  I'm no molecular
biologist, so I really can't say what happens to malt that has already
been mashed in the grain when it is reintroduced to an environment of
further enzymatic activity.  However, I do logically question that if
crytal malt can be further broken down, then why didn't it happen during
the original mash when the grain was crystalized?  Also, it's apparently
a fact that many microbreweries mash all grains together (including the
specialties), maybe due to time and equipment considerations, and this
information may influence whether you would like to do the same.  Of
course, if you have the extra pots you can choose to steep specialties
separately.  I guess it all just depends on the characteristic you're
after.  Anyway, I should talk, I have yet to mash, which was why I posed
the question in the first place.

Cheers,
Bill H.

My various E-Mail Addresses --->
OfficeVision:  DOEVM(U9508WH)     BITNET:  U9508WH at DOEVM.BITNET
Internet:  u9508wh at vm1.hqadmin.doe.gov
X.400:  ADMD=ATTMAIL/PRMD=USDOE/O=HQADMIN/OU1=DOEVM/OU2=U9508WH

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Date: Wed, 20 Apr 1994 08:56:37 -0700 (PDT)
From: gummitch at teleport.com (Jeff Frane)
Subject: Re: spelling, British tour

I know that the net is a notorious source of poor spelling (wonder how
all these people got through college?), so I'm not pointing any fingers
(I don't have that many fingers!), but: for the record, there is no "d"
in refrigerator.  Really.

======

I have gone on record before complaining about trip reports, brewery
tours, etc.  I would also like to go on record as saying that Tom
Cannon's "Notes on a London Beer Hunt" is a pretty good example of how
such a report *should* be done.  Concise and full of information; an
interesting anecdote or two...

> 
>           The trip has gotten me primed for trying cask conditioning
>           home brew.  Does anyone have any experience in real cask
>           conditioning?  I'm also very interested in acquiring a beer
>           engine.  Any sources would be greatly appreciated.
> 

If memory serves, the 1985 Special All-Grain Issue of Zymurgy contains
an article by Rande Reed which thoroughly covers the subject of cask
conditioning.  I *think* he gave sources for ordering casks, engines,
bungs, etc from England, and suggestions about building some of the
furniture that couldn't be acquired otherwise.  At any rate, it's a
start.  Beer engines are around, as a number of brewpubs will attest; I
believe they are pretty expensive.  Rande's plan, I think, called for
direct tapping of the cask.  

The drawback that has discouraged me from doing true cask-conditioning
is the problem of oxidation.  Once that cask has been tapped, the beer
needs to be consumed in a couple of days.  I suppose you *could*
schedule your beer around a big party, but still -- then everybody else
would get to drink your beer up.  A tough call.

- --Jeff



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Date: Wed, 20 Apr 1994 12:04:52 -0400
From: keithfrank at dow.com (R. KEITH FRANK, DCR&D B-1222, 409-238-9880)
Subject: Re: Beer Accross America

In response to David Brewer's Question about Beer Across America (BAA), I was 

a member for a year or so and I really enjoyed it.  It was a good deal.  

Unfortunately, I live in Texas which is, to say the least, a backwards place 

when it comes to beer laws.  The Texas Alcoholic Beverage Commission has ruled 

that BAA can no longer ship to Texas.  Apparantely, there is one other state 

in the Union that has a similar problem.  If, however, you live in any of the 

the other 48 states, here is the info:



Beer Across America

150 Hilltop Avenue

P.O. Box 728

Barrington, IL  60011-0728



708-842-2337

708-842-2331 (FAX)



Regards,

Keith Frank (keithfrank at dow.com)




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Date: Wed, 20 Apr 94 12:17:31 EDT
From: flehouillier at VNET.IBM.COM
Subject: Railey North Carolina & BREW PUBS etc...

I'm planning a trip to Railey NC at the start of May 1994 and would like
to ask any of you zymurgist out there if you know of any reputable
brew pubs or other similar venues that one should visit.

Thanks much for your forth coming suggestions.

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Date: Wed, 20 Apr 94 12:19 EDT
From: Eric_SARLIN at umail.umd.edu (es76)
Subject: D.C. Brew pubs

This post is directed to Jeff Ziehler who was looking for good brew pubs in
the Washington D.C. area.  There aren't many worthwhile brew pubs in the
district (at least that I know of), though you should check out the
Brickskellers off of Dupont Circle.  Although they do no on-sight brewing,
they, at one point, boasted the largest international beer selection in the
world.  It's a bit pricey, but worth it.

For good brew pubs, you need to hop on the metro, and ride to the "Court
House" stop which is near Roslyn, VA.  Bardo Rodeo's at 2000 Wilson Blvd. is
a retired oldsmobile dealership turned brew pub targeted at the twenty
something generation.  You'll find great beer, good food, and good music for
very reasonable prices.  Their India Pale Ale is perhaps the best I've ever
tasted.  All their other brews are worth checking out too, except their
stout.  I think they call it Wild Boar stout or something similar, but it's
mediocre at best.  They usually have between 12 and 20 in-house brews ready
to go as well as other beer.

You may also want to check out old town Alexandria which has a few small
brew pubs with limited selections.

Yours in Zymurgy,

Eric Sarlin



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Date:         Wed, 20 Apr 94 11:10:04 CDT
From: Paul Sovcik <U18183%UICVM at UIC.EDU>
Subject:      Aeration: not that crucial?

  Having come into temporary posession of a copy of Brewing and Malting Science
 recently, I came upon a very interesting section on wort aeration.
  An experiment was performed on the effect dissolved oxygen had on unfermented
wort.  One aspect of the study apparently looked at the yeast replication and
corellated that to the amount of oxygen saturated.
  A graph was shown (sorry, I dont have the book in front of me and I dont know
the page numbers) that plotted # of yeast cells vs. oxygen saturation in wort.
The graph shows that below a saturation point of 25%, the amount of yeast
reproduction dramatically and exponentially drops to presumably zero with
no oxygen in the wort.  However, at any saturation point above 25%, there is
no apprecable difference in the number of yeast cells.
  And the kicker here is that other findings of this experiment showed that
no matter what the oxygen level in the unfermented wort, at the finish of
fermetnation, THE ALCOHOL LEVEL WAS THE SAME.  From this I would have to
assume that fermentation went to completion no matter how poorly aerated the
wort was.
  So, from this study one can conclude that one only has to get 25% oxygen
saturation in the unfermented wort for optimal yeast reproduction, and that
if one does not achieve this saturation point, the wort will still ferment
to completion anyway (without a high final gravity ). This study, however,
makes no mention of lag times...
  So I guess my question now is:  What is 25% saturation and how do I get it
with the least possible hassle?  I am guessing that regularly aerated tap
water will have at least 25% aeration if not much more than this, so the
simple act of mixing tap water with cooled wort (which would have little
aeration) would probably put me in the ballpark for max aeration.
  I think I have interpreted this study correctly, and, if I have not,
Im sure Ill hear about it.  :)
 -Paul
Paul Sovcik    U18183 at uicvm.uic.edu

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End of HOMEBREW Digest #1404, 04/21/94