FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Rob Gardner, Digest Janitor


Contents:
  Re: Ammonia Beer/ Chlorine & Life/ High Hops- Hop Starts (COYOTE)
  Need hop oil suggestion (Carlo Fusco)
  Recycle hops, USA Saaz, hop compost (Mike Sadul)
  Pump me up! (COYOTE)
  Carapils vs Caramel Debate & Mashout/ Beer Hunters so cool/ Fruits & (COYOTE)
  exploding bottles (Joseph Edward Kain Iii)
  Old Egyptian Recipe? (Dave Pehling)
  Re: Cheap Airstone, or:Details Man, Details! ("McGaughey, Nial")
  Where to Get a Gott? (Doug Fettig)
  Cranberry Wheat Recipe (Timothy Staiano)
  Mashing Crystal (Darren Aaberge)
  Foodgrade (Algis R Korzonas +1 708 979 8583)
  Ammonia and cinnamon (Tri Pham)
  Pub Help (Ken Jackson)
   (I am a brainless twit)
  Toasted malt (KWH)
  20 min mashing, O2 saturation (Jim Busch)
  Re: Two Problems (with Light Lager) (Bill Szymczak)
  Las Vegas Brew Pubs (rnarvaez)
  cask ales, pt 1 (Jim Busch)
  Looking for special beers (MS08653)
  Fear of dry-hopping (BUKOFSKY)
  re: GuppyMasher(tm) (Mark Bellefeuille)
  cask ales, pt 2 (Jim Busch)


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----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Wed, 20 Apr 1994 11:12:53 -0600 (MDT)
From: COYOTE <SLK6P at cc.usu.edu>
Subject: Re: Ammonia Beer/ Chlorine & Life/ High Hops- Hop Starts

I've been watchin' silently for a couple daze, so here's a banter from
the Coyote for your listenin' pleasure!  :)  Hoppy Hoppy Days!

>Jason Sloan sed... The airlock
never seemed to start going, even after a couple of days.  We got
a bit impatient and looked under the lid and it sure looked like
it had been fermenting so we decided to rack to a primary for the
sheer unadulterated Hell of it.                   ^^^^^^^

*   Ok, I'll bite.  What was it in (bucket) if you were going to rack
INTO a primary?  Primary = First.  Hence you would rack to a secondary.

But really:    Honey and Cinnamon.  I say....yum, yum, yum...

My guess is you never had good yeast going in there. Did you TASTE it
before you dumped it?  Have you ever SMELLED CO2 (not Co2, or C02)?
It will make your nose burn and eyes water.  Trust me....

Sometimes buckets of the plastic type will leak enough that a blowoff 
tube, or airlock will not be the place where gas is released.  The
early stages of a ferment can be rather nasty to the novice, then you come
to appreciate the sulfury, noxious compounds for what they are:
        Potential Beer!  I love to watch them churn!  Hugging my Homebrew!

I'd say- "Do it adain, Do it adain" (tweety bird).  If you're worried
    1.  Don't be.   2. Go with a straight recipe    3. Make a starter

***
Blue airstones and chlorine:
    FWIW:  I had one of those LONG wall of bubbles type airstones that
    had once been in fishtank water, so I soaked it in a fairly strong
    chlorine solution.  Guess what?  The blue went partially away!
    AND...even after thorough rinsing it seemed that air pushed through
    it continued to smell of chlorine.  SO I never put it in beer or mead.
    A metal tube (stainless is good) with one end crimped shut or capped,
    and holes drilled in it should do the trick.

A simple air filter can be made with glass wool stuffed in a tube, and 
autoclaved (pressure cooked) if you're so inclined. There are commercial
sterile air filters available. Check with a medical oxygen supplier.
 
Chlorine and sperm:
    I need more specifics here. 50% reduction in sperm.  It sounds like you
    were saying "due to chlorine intake in...water supplies?"
    Were there any specifics like....concentration, duration....

    Or was it a matter of spewing sperm into   1. Conc Chlorine  2. Cl Soln???
    I could easily see THAT killing them off!  They do have a hard life...

    That's a pretty nasty statistic to just throw out w/o any specifics!
    What about dipping ones hands repeatedly into chlorine? Breathing it?
    Could you give us some more useful info from that article?
***
High Altitude Hops:

    I forget who...was wanting to grow hops at 6000-6200 feet elevation.
    Wow duuuude. You're High!  I'm at 4000, and have had good success, but
    you are pushing the limits of a growing season! Frost in august! Euey.

    I can tell you that 5 feet will not be enough for hops, even if you
    wrap them back and forth. I don't know what this greenhouse thingy
    looks like, but I picture HOPS everywhere, and nothing else if you try
    them inside.

    Suggestion?  Plant them in a BIG pot (10 gal?) and let them start inside,
    so they can get an earlier start on the season,  then when they are a few
    feet high move the post outside, and bury the pot in the ground after frost
    danger is past.  Keeping a wall of water, or other cover handy. Then let
    them climb, climb, climb.  Cuz they will!  

    You might be able to make it work.  But you might not. No harm in trying!
***
Hop Starts- success in the making!

    Just an update:  My attempts at rooting, and direct planting are 
    mostly alive and well.  I do think there is an advantage to putting
    cuttings in water until roots form, then placing in soil.
    I'd also suggest keeping a fresh tip. i.e., if the cut end rots
    before roots form, give it another cut to be sure the xylem-phloem have
    access to water directly.
    But- I also have shoots placed directly in a peat moss (not irish or
    spanish!), sand, soil, vermiculite mixture. Some are looking happy
    and healthy. A couple have wilted. But at least half are happily viable.

    My cascade has sent up NUMEROUS shoots, and I've wrapped the tallest
    on stringers already. I couldn't bare to just cut off the other shoots,
    so I've been rooting them. I have friends who'd enjoy them, plus a
    chainlink fence facing the high school which I'd be glad to have covered
    with hops!  Privacy can be a good thing!  :(

    I observed that the hairs on the stems became roots (green stems). 
    But the below ground stems (pale-> red colors) don't have hairs.
    I now have a comparison set going of above, and below ground stems.
    I'll update on that later.

    ALSO: another observation:  The underground stems from earlier shoots 
    that had been cut have developed new shoot- branches, with roots right
    there. These seem prime for propogation too!  So I'm basically going
    at it with all ends of the stick. Since this is only their second
    season I'm not really finding nice fat rhizomes like the ones I got
    from FreshHops.  But maybe next year!

    For any that missed it: Cut a shoot close to the ground or below.
    Cut a slant close to a node (leave emergence point= bulge) and snip
    off the lowest leaves, leaving two or three sets from the top.
    Dip in rootone if ya got it. Place in shallow water (all leaves above)
    and sit on a windowsill- in partial to full sun. Not too hot or droopage!

I'm still working on ideas for the new hop-yard, but it's going to be
a while yet, so I placed the new rhizomes in some pots, soil-peat moss
so they can get started.  They had nice shoots, which are just starting to
poke out of the soil now.   God I love hops! They are sooooo coooooool!
    o
    |\
  |\| \/|   \-\-\-  John (The Coyote) Wyllie   SLK6P at cc.usu.edu  -/-/-/
   \    \      Originally in Logan, soon to be Smithfield (utah.   shhhhhh)
     ----       "That's a beer that feels good on my moustache"   Me! 8{|}

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Date: 	Tue, 19 Apr 1994 21:18:00 -0400
From: carlo.fusco at canrem.com (Carlo Fusco)
Subject: Need hop oil suggestion

Hello Brewers,

I need just a little help. I recently made an English Bitter and I just 
tasted it out of the primary and into the secondary and found it to be 
lacking quite a bit in the bitterness. I would like someone to suggest a 
way to increase the bitterness of this brew before I keg it. 

Thanks
Carlo

- ---
 * Freddie 1.2.5 * email: carlo.fusco at canrem.com  Sharon,Ontario,Canada

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Date: 	Sat, 16 Apr 1994 11:39:00 -0400
From: mike.sadul at canrem.com (Mike Sadul)
Subject: Recycle hops, USA Saaz, hop compost

Has anyone ever tried recycling hops?  Or to be more precise, has
anyone tried reusing aroma hops (or even flavor hops) as bittering
hops for the next batch?

This occurred to me last weekend when I brewed two 10 gallon batches
in one day :) (don't try this at home kids! it makes for one looong
day PLUS dry, chapped hands from all the equipment washing and
rinsing :( ).

After siphoning the wort from the kettle of the first batch, I
proceeded to dump the spent hop (pellets) onto the compost heap.
Now, seeing my most expensive ingredients only being used for a few
minutes and knowingly throwing away unused bitterness got me
wondering...

Could this green sludge simply be dumped into my next batch? Or
would the hot and cold break cause problems if it gets reboiled for
another hour.  Perhaps the break could somehow be rinsed off (akin
to yeast washing)?  Maybe it would be possible with hop cones?

Any brave souls willing to sacrifice a batch for experimental
purposes?

Perhaps one day spent aroma hops will be part of our recycling
program!

*************

It was the price of hops which brought upon the above questions.
They don't seem as important any more since I found a store (in
Toronto) that sells 1 oz. of Cascade pellets for $.89 and USA Saaz
for a whopping $1.09. I was paying upwards of $2 an oz. before. I
assume the USA Saaz are not of the same quality as the imported
variety? Has anyone done any side by side comparisons of these two
types?

*************

Since one reason for using hops is for their anti-bacterial
qualities, would dumping them onto a compost heap cause any
problems with the breakdown of the compost?

Enough questions, bring on the homebrew!

Mike 'Where temperatures are still low enough to lager' Sadul
mike.sadul at canrem.com

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Date: Wed, 20 Apr 1994 11:33:48 -0600 (MDT)
From: COYOTE <SLK6P at cc.usu.edu>
Subject: Pump me up!

Forgot...to...ask....before.

Anyone have a source of a reasonably priced (read- I'ma cheapskate)
pump that is food grade, and will tolerate up to sparge temp water?

I wouldn't mind developing some aspect of a RIMS-esque system in my
new location. I hate lifting heavy things and hope to eliminate that
from my new brewing arrangement.  A pump around would be a handy thing!

Please e-mail me with any info you might have, prices, catalog numbers, phone#

Chow.  (I'll skip the sig.line this time, ok folks!)


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Date: Wed, 20 Apr 1994 11:30:09 -0600 (MDT)
From: COYOTE <SLK6P at cc.usu.edu>
Subject: Carapils vs Caramel Debate & Mashout/ Beer Hunters so cool/ Fruits &

FWIW:
Carapils = Dextrine   Caramel = Crystal.   They are not the same cookie!

In terms of enzymes and their chewing action:
    It all depends on temperatures as to which enzymes are active.
    Certain types of branches will leave poly-saccharides intact.
    Some oligo saccharides (several mono's) can remain unfermentable
    even with a long mash.  That's why there is residual sweetness in beers.

    Adding them at the end of a mash may be more likely to leave any
    unfermentables undigested, BUT dextrins can be unfermentable PRODUCTS
    of a mash. Not all saccharides in malt starches are digestable by yeast.

I always grind all my grain together and mash in one big goo.  I feel I 
get plenty of maltiness in my beers.  I usually follow something of a stepwise
infusion-esque mashing regime.  I think I'll go try one right now!

And I don't do a TRUE mashout in my picnic cooler: BUT my sparge water is HOT
so the mash temp does drift upward during the sparge and should have the 
same end result:  Getting the sugars OUT of the grain.  

One advantage of a mashout is that you INACTIVATE enzymes. But I start
my boils right away, so the time to inactivation is effectively the same.
Inactivation is not an instantaneous thing. It occurs in a given time frame
of LOSS OF ACTIVITY per minute (or hour) at X TEMPERATURE.   Just my 2c.
***
Hunter Airstat, Home made Cooler/fridge
    
    Just got me a Hunter Airstat (Cellar Homebrew 800-365-7660,$29.95, discl)
    and realized that this puppy does ALL KINDS of stuff, very little of it
    do I need!  Unless I'm actually going to run a window air conditioner!
    But it's nice to know it can!  

    Question 1:  Is there anyway of tweaking these buggers to run lower
    than 40 deg f?  That's their lower limit, I'd like the option of
    going to 32, but didn't want to spend $60 for the other model!
    
    Question 2:  Has anyone tried making an insulated "room"?
    Thing is I do have one of those window air conditioners (refrigeration)
    that I picked up at a thrift store for $5. It works just fine!
    I was thinking of building a plywood, styrofoam BOX for storing
    kegs and carboys. Either in the basment or the garage.

    I've seen the Refridgerator Modification designs of building extra
    space off of a fridge, but I'd just as well keep the extra fridge
    I got for $10 (same place) with it's taps mounted, set at a colder
    temperature for serving beer, and have a separate space for lagering.

    I guess the question here is: Is there any potential harm in running 
    one of these window air-conditioners in a closed space? When it sits in
    the window I have the understanding that it can/will draw air from the 
    outside, and push cool air inside. I would guess it must be venting
    warmer air from the cooling coils too (like the back of a fridge).
    Are there any hazardous gases (like chlorine, to kill our sperm!)
    released which I should <gasp> "worry" about? I doubt it, but thought
    I'd ask the net knowledge source.

    If anyone has good ideas on building insulated boxes, I'd love your input.
    I'm figuring on painting some plywood for the outer walls, and lining
    the inner with thick styrofoam. Ideally the metal covered attic insulation.
    I'm also guessing that the Mrs to be would prefer I insulate the attic
    itself first (I'll just plan on having a little extra left over! Wink ;)

    
***
Thanks to Rick Webb for that excellent fruity list!  Do you have lovibond
ratings on these too?

But really;  If you're not planning it, I think that would be an excellent
list for the Mead Digest.  I'll repost it if you ain't gonner!

***
Beautiful Cask Hand Pumps at antique store in Salt Lake.  Oh joy.  Only $200!

I was antiquing in Salt Lake, and came across a couple of very attractive
porcelein beer taps which I figured must be hand pumps. Very nice images
painted on (by hand I'm sure).  The bad news was the price.
The other bad news was that the Mrs to be did indeed want a washer and dryer
more than she wanted me to have those nice looking antique hand pumps.
        Ah well.... I'm whipped, and poor!  But I'll be cool!

    o
    |\
  |\| \/|   \-\-\-  John (The Coyote) Wyllie   SLK6P at cc.usu.edu  -/-/-/
   \    \      Originally in Logan, soon to be Smithfield (utah.   shhhhhh)
     ----       "That's a beer that feels good on my moustache"   Me! 8{|}

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Date: Wed, 20 Apr 1994 15:01:12 -0400
From: Joseph Edward Kain Iii <kainj at rpi.edu>
Subject: exploding bottles


My first batch of beer ever, an amber from a kit, turned out to be a little
overcarbonated.  I didn't think this would pose too much of a problem, until
Sunday night.  I was storing my beer at the head of my bed, for lack of a
better storage space.  About 4 a.m., something woke me up.  When I was trying
to go back to sleep, I started hearing the sounds of glass moving against
glass.  All of a sudden, I smelled beer!  I turned on my light, and noticed
that beer was pouring from the bottom of one of the cases.  I looked in the
case, and noticed that one of the bottles was shattered beyond all 
recognition.  I then noticed that there were shards of glass in my bed, on
my pillow, in my hair, etc...  

Moral of the story:
Keep your bottled beer shielded (cardboard case, etc...) if it is 
overcarbonated, and  DON'T STORE YOUR BEER WHERE YOU SLEEP!!!!!!


Joseph "MOLE" Kain
kainj at rpi.edu

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Date:         Wed, 20 Apr 94 12:53:19 PST
From: Dave Pehling <CE6431 at WSUVM1.CSC.WSU.EDU>
Subject:      Old Egyptian Recipe?

Hi Folks,
Although I'm no longer a member of this list, I hope you can help me.
A friend of mine heard that a beer recipe several thousand years old
was being translated from the original heiroglyphics and he wondered
if I'd heard anything about it.  I figured THIS was the BEST place to
ask...  Any takers?  Anyone have the recipe?  Please reply to my
address below.

Thanks in advance..........

Dave Pehling


    ===========================================
  | W.S.U./SNOHOMISH CO. COOPERATIVE EXTENSION |
  | 600 128TH ST. S.E.                         |
  | EVERETT, WA.  98208                        |
  |PHONE - (206)338-2400                       |
  |FAX   - (206)338-3994                       |
  |INTERNET  CE6431 at WSUVM1.CSC.WSU.EDU         |
   ============================================

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Date: Wed, 20 Apr 94 13:04:00 PDT
From: "McGaughey, Nial" <nmcgaugh at hq.walldata.com>
Subject: Re: Cheap Airstone, or:Details Man, Details!


Bob, perhaps this is out of line, but the name of the device, as well as 
where you purchased it would be of more interest than 'I put this thing on 
the end of my cane and it WORKED GREAT..'. Plus what was the function of the 
air filter in the whole scheme of things? I dont mean this as a flame,I love 
hearing about new discoveries in making BetterBrew(tm) (its one of the many 
reasons I subscribed to HBD) ,but its disheartening to somone interested in 
reproducing the techniques presented when little, if any specifics are 
attached.

>Date: Tue, 19 Apr 94 09:07:24 EDT
>From: btalk at aol.com
>Subject: cheap airstone

>I found an airstone substitute that is essentially a 2 inch long piece of
>light blue tubing with a zillion holes poked in it, plugged at one end and

On the subject of bubblers for wort, would a garden 'soaker' hose (the porus 
kind that can be used for keeping vegetable soil moist) be useful for such a 
purpose? Incorrect type of hose material?

Nial McGaughey
My opinions probably not the same as Wall Data's

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Date: Wed, 20 Apr 94 16:24:00 PDT
From: Doug Fettig <DFettig at NYD.LEGENT.COM>
Subject: Where to Get a Gott?


Does anyone know where I can find a Gott cooler?
I've called 2-3 sporting goods stores and checked at 2 department
stores, but the closest I've seen is a squarish Rubbermaid.
Have you homebrewers bought up all the supply?!?

If anyone has a suggestion for where I can find a Gott (and a
recommended size) please email me at my address below.
I'll post a summary of any replies I get. Thanks.

 --Doug Fettig
dfettig at nyd.legent.com

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Date: Wed, 20 Apr 1994 16:12:13 -0400 (EDT)
From: Timothy Staiano <tstaiano at ultrix.ramapo.edu>
Subject: Cranberry Wheat Recipe

Howdy all!

I'm going to brew my first own recipe extract beer and am looking for 
some input from the omnitent (sp?) recipients of the HBD.

This is the recipe for my Cranberry Wheat Beer:

	6.6# Irek 100% Wheat Extract
	3# Light DME
	4# frozen cranberries
	1\2# 20lv crystal
	1# clover honey
	1oz hallertaur  at  15 min (boil)
	1/4oz hallertaur (steep)
	yeast (see below)

Questions:
	1. How many IBU's should I shoot for to stay in wheat "style"?  
Will the tartness of the cranberries throw off the malt/hop balance?  
Also, I might use Mt. Hood to finish, comments?

	2. I figured to use the honey so maybe it would ferment out b4 
the sugars from the cranberries in order to retain more cran flavor.  
What say thee?

	3. When should I add the cran?  At the end of boil to steep? (If 
so, should I dump them into the primary or remove from my concentrated 
wort and pour additional H20 through?)  In the secondary?  Should I 
mascerate, blend, or leave whole to get the most cran?

	4. Should I add pectic enzyme to combat possible formation of 
pectins or is this just my paranoia talking?

	5. Wyeast 3056: Is anyone still havin' any problems with 
attenuation/floccuation (sp?) as given in yeast FAQ?  How about using 
Yeast Lab W51 (yeast FAQ says it might be better than 3056)?

	6. How long should it stay in secondary?  I'm thinking about 2-3 
weeks. 

Sorry for the length in posting, but I haven't posted much so I don't 
feel so bad about it.

Private e-mail only please (unless you think that your input would be 
appreciated by all).  I'll post condensed version of replies and my 
results at a later date.

Have a hoppy!

Tim Staiano
Ramapo College, Mahwah NJ
tstaiano at ultrix.ramapo.edu

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Date: Wed, 20 Apr 94 14:18:07 PDT
From: dra at jsc-ws.sharpwa.com (Darren Aaberge)
Subject: Mashing Crystal

Norm Pyle writes:

>Bill H. writes:
>
>>......  She said, when you think about it, specialties such as crystal
>>have already been mashed in the grain and the only thing left is
>>unfermentables; therefore, being thrown in with the mash really can't do
>>much more to them...................................................
>
>This isn't logical.  The mash contains enzymes which work to break down
>starches into fermentable and unfermentable sugars.  The longer the enzymes
>are allowed to work, the more fermentable sugars (smaller sugars) are
>produced as the enzymes chop away (remember Charlie's picture of the little
>lumberjacks?).  I can't see how the unfermentable sugars in crystal malt are
>immune to this enzymatic activity in the mash.


If you are adding the crystal malt for the purpose of adding unfermentables to 
the wort because a high final gravity is desired, I would think that you would 
also be mashing at a high temperature.  I believe, although I could be wrong, 
that at high mash temperatures the main thing happening is that long starches 
are being broken up into large sugars (both fermentable and unfermentable), but
relatively few unfermentable sugars are being broken down further.  If this is 
right, then it would seem that the large unfermentable sugars found in crystal 
malts could survive the mash, or at least a large percentage of them anyway.  

Also on the topic of whether or not to mash crystal malts, the article called 
"The Influences of Raw Materials on the Production of All-Grain Beers" by Gary 
Bauer in the 1985 All-Grain Special issue of Zymurgy, Gary states that crystal 
malt still has some starch left in it and it should be mashed.   

So, my conclusions on whether to mash crystal malts are that they really don't
have to be, but on the other hand there really is no reason not to.  I feel that
it is easiest to just throw in the crystal malt with the mash and don't worry
about it.  From personal experience of doing this, I can say that my beers do
not suffer from not having enough unfermentables in them.

Just my $.02,
Darren Aaberge

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Date: 20 Apr 94 23:09:00 GMT
From: korz at iepubj.att.com (Algis R Korzonas +1 708 979 8583)
Subject: Foodgrade

Klaus writes:
>Years ago I purchased a rubbermaid roughneck garbage container to use 
>as a primary fermenter for a batch of cider myself and a friend were 
>making.Before using it I became concerned about whether the garbage 
>container was safe for food storage

I don't know about the plastic garbage bags, nor do I know about
*COLORED* Rubbermaid Brute containers, but I know that *WHITE* Rubbermaid
Brute containers ARE food grade (USDA and NSF listed for FDA food storage).
If you have a questionable container, they do make plastic food-grade liners
from 4mil to 10mil, which you can put inside anything from a 55-gallon drum
to a toilet bowl if you want to.

Al.



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Date: Wed, 20 Apr 1994 19:58:10 -0700
From: cromwell at holonet.net (Tri Pham)
Subject: Ammonia and cinnamon

        Jason Sloan asked about that ammonia smell and cinnamon in that
batch of brew... I don't know about that smell but I can tell you a little
about the cinnamon and what seemed like a problem with the fermentation. 
I'm a baker at a bagel shop and the cinnamon raisen bagels are the ones
that give me the most trouble.  It seems that cinnamon does funky stuff to
yeast. If you put too much cinnamon in the dough and/or not enough yeast,
the bagels just won't rise.  I would assume this is analogous to putting
the yeast in your wort and have it not ferment.  My guess would be that
you'll have to compensate for the cinnamon that you put in by adding more
yeast... But then again, seeing as how you only put in a total of 1/2 tsp,
it could most probably be something else... or not... 

Tri Pham
cromwell at holonet.net



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Date: Thu, 21 Apr 94 07:28:30 EDT
From: ken at memtec.com (Ken Jackson)
Subject: Pub Help

   Greetings fellow HBD'ers,

 I live in Maryland and will be taking a traveling
vacation to Portland, Maine in a couple of weeks, with
stops at Braintree, Mass on the way up & Plymouth, Mass
on the way back. Can anyone recommend some pubs in these
areas that serve some of the local brews? And,if your
feeling especially helpful, some good restaurants would
be of interest as well.    Many Thanks,
                               KJ
 send e-mail to ken at memtec.com 

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Date: Thu, 21 Apr 1994 08:25:13 -0500 (EST)
From: I am a brainless twit <MB77945%LTUVAX.bitnet at CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Subject: 

sign off

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Date: Thu, 21 Apr 94 09:38
From: KWH at roadnet.ups.com (KWH)
Subject: Toasted malt

An article in the Winter 93 Zymurgy details an all grain, 10 gallon recipe 
for Oregon Nut Brown Ale.  I want to convert it to a 5 gallon, extract with 
specialty grain recipe.  My problem is dealing with the toasted malt.  
According to the article, the grain is put in a 375F oven for 40 minutes, 
then cracked and added to the rest of the grain in a step infusion mash.  
The first problem is that I am forced to buy my grain already crushed.  
Will toasting precrushed grain give the same result as toasted-then-crushed 
grain?  Secondly, should this grain go through a partial mash schedule, or 
could it simply be steeped along with the crystal?  If it must be mashed, 
should I include a certain percentage of pale malt along with it?  What 
would be the contribution of this to the gravity (pts/lbs/gallons)?  
Finally, are there any suggestions on a source for the hazelnut extract?  
There are some candy supply stores in the Baltimore area that carry just 
about every kind of flavoring imagineable, and I have been tempted to try 
them for fruit beers and wines, etc..  What particular ingredients in these 
should I look to avoid (such as potassium sorbate, corn syrup, etc.)?  Any 
helpful suggestions by private Email would be very welcomed.

Thanks,
Kirk Harralson


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Date: Thu, 21 Apr 1994 10:21:15 -0400 (EDT)
From: Jim Busch <busch at daacdev1.stx.com>
Subject: 20 min mashing, O2 saturation

Mark writes:
> 
> homebrew mash schedules.  In a commercial brewery the
> mash schedules are likely to be as short as possible
> (20-30 minutes) and they want to make a very consistent
> product, so a quick stop of the enzyme activity is probably
> necessary (they also want to control their alcohol content
> as close as possible).  

I dont think this is an accurate statement, 20 minute mashes?
I know of only one micro who uses such a short mash schedule,
and Im quite sure the big industrials use more complicated 
mash programs.  What is accurate is that in most mashing programs,
rests are as short as 10-20 minutes "at each rest point".  I
just finished a upward step mash of a weizen, and I did just such
a program, 25 min , 122F, 10 min, 126F, 2 min 132F, 20 min 147F,
45 min 159F, mash off.  And if the 20 min mash stuff comes from
Dr. Lewis, enuf said.

BTW, Im back to decoctions on my next weizen.

Jeff writes:
> If memory serves, the 1985 Special All-Grain Issue of Zymurgy contains
> an article by Rande Reed which thoroughly covers the subject of cask
> conditioning.  

I also wrote an article on this subject in the last special issue of Zymurgy.
Ill post it here also.  BTW, beer engines can be ordered from a UK supply
house as advertised in the latest New Brewer, but I bet they start at 300
pounds!

> Subject: Re: Beer Accross America

They just shipped a ton of Old Dominion Stout.  Id like to hear feedback
via private email. busch at daacdev1.stx.com

> Subject:      Aeration: not that crucial?
> 
>   So I guess my question now is:  What is 25% saturation and how do I get it
> with the least possible hassle?  I am guessing that regularly aerated tap
> water will have at least 25% aeration if not much more than this, so the
> simple act of mixing tap water with cooled wort (which would have little
> aeration) would probably put me in the ballpark for max aeration.

The key here is saturation.  You will never achieve saturation without 
using some kind of O2 bubbler/injector, period.  Even aquarium pumps yield
low dissolved oxygen levles, but they are a whole lot better than zippo.
"regularly aerated tap water" will have very low levels of DO.

Good brewing,
Jim Busch


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Date: Thu, 21 Apr 94 10:17:45 EDT
From: bszymcz%ulysses at relay.nswc.navy.mil (Bill Szymczak)
Subject: Re: Two Problems (with Light Lager)

In HBD1404 Dave Knight mentions problems with a light lager:

>(California Lager). Primary ferment at 70 degrees, secondary at 32 degrees
>for about 3 weeks, bottled with 4 ounces corn sugar. After bottling it
>was kept at room temperature for 3 days and then at 45 degrees for 2 weeks.
>There is a small amount of sediment at the bottom (not much, though).  I
>tried one a few days ago and noticed two problems:

>1) *NO* carbonation.  There is a slight *pfft* sound when you open the cap,
>   but when poured, the beer is totally flat.  By the way, I used Pure-Seal

>2) The beer has little flavor (that's what I was aiming for), but a rather
>   strange aftertaste that I have trouble describing.  The closest thing
>   I can compare it to is milk.  I checked in the trouble shooting sections
>   in Papazian and Miller and couldn't find a reference to the taste I'm
>   describing.  Has anyone observed anything like this before?  It is quite
>   unpleasant.

>By the way, the yeast was reused from another batch (steam)-- taken from
My experience is that if no fresh yeast is added at bottling
time a lager will take 2-3 weeks to carbonate even at room
temperature.  It seems reasonable to expect that the yeast,
which has been sitting at 32 F for 3 weeks, needs a longer time
to rejuvenate and eat the priming sugar.  Put the bottles out at
room temperature for a few weeks and monitor the carbonation
each week.

On problem 2, it may well be diacetyl, which can leave a
buttery, or perhaps as you described, milky, coating on your
tongue.  Depending on how long your primary ferment was at 70 F
this is likely a concern.  That is, if you racked off primary
too early, there could be a lot of diacetyl left which would not
be reduced in 3 weeks at 32 F.  See some of the articles in
Zymurgy by Fix and others (probably the yeast special issue, but
I'd have to look it up) on diacetyl production.
Of course if the aftertaste is SOUR milk, you have another
problem.  Also 70F is a little high, even for steam beer.  If I
recall, Anchor Steam does its primary ferment at 60F.

Bill Szymczak
bszymcz at ulysses.nswc.navy.mil

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Date: Thu, 21 Apr 1994 10:24:06 -0500
From: rnarvaez at lan.mcl.bdm.com
Subject:  Las Vegas Brew Pubs

I am going to vacation in Las Vegas in May and was wondering if there are any
Microbrewery Clubs there. We have a couple here in Albuquerque NM and I
enjoy them a lot and would like to check out some in Vegas if there are any. If
anybody knows of any please let me know the Names and Address(if known)
Thanks.......

Ronald Narvaez
RNarvaez at lan.mcl.bdm.com

Never take life too seriously, it isn't a permanent thing. : )


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Date: Thu, 21 Apr 1994 10:32:45 -0400 (EDT)
From: Jim Busch <busch at daacdev1.stx.com>
Subject: cask ales, pt 1

Cask Conditioned Ales
by Jim Busch


England has numerous distinctions to contribute to the brewing world, but none
is as unique and important as the tradition of cask conditioned ales. Cask, or
Real Ale as it is often called, is a special brew, served in a special manner,
by hand pump from the cellar.  Despite what you may have been told in the US,
cask ale is not warm and it is not flat.  It is dispensed at cellar 
temperatures, 54 - 59F, and is naturally, albeit lightly carbonated.  As a 
result, the mouthfeel of the product is extremely distinct from that of a 
"gassy" keg beer.  Temperature and carbonation have a great impact on the 
perception of the beer on the palate, and the combination of the cellar 
temperature, low CO2 volumes, and often a snappy hoppy aroma & flavor, all 
are blended in the mouth to reveal a distinctly different and satisfying
ale.  While the spectrum of cask ales can be difficult to generalize, the 
carbonation, temperature, hoppiness and fermentation products are usually
dominant factors in the flavor perceptions of all cask ales.  Many cask ales
have numerous fruity notes that are created in the fermenter and gradually
reduced and blended during the maturation and conditioning periods.  The 
important point is that they are supposed to be there, and that they manifest 
themselves in varying degrees of complexity throughout the life of the cask.
This is one of the wonderful aspects of cask ale, it is living, breathing 
beer that will change over the week or so between bunging of the cask and 
the final pull of the hand pump.  

Production of Cask Ales:

Cask ales produced in England are top fermented beers, often produced in 
open fermenters.  Open fermenters are just what they sound like, a vessal
without a top.  Often the fermenters are a large cylander with a hinged lid.
Many are attemperated (chilled) by piping that is submersed in the fermenting
wort.  Either chilled water or chilled glycol is pumped through the piping,
allowing the brewer to control the rise of temperature during the fermentation.

While closed tanks are used in some of the bigger breweries,
open fermenters are the traditional technique, and some noted breweries rely on
the old Burton Union and Yorkshire Squares systems of open fermentation.  Both
of these subsets of open fermenters are designed so that the fermentation 
effluent or krausen is allowed to flow out of the fermenter, into a collection
area, and either removed or allowed to return into the main fermenter.  This 
technique tends to introduce added oxygen to the fermenter that will often 
result in slightly elevated diacetyl levels in the beer.  This is generally
not a negative aspect of these beers.  The use of open fermentation may seem
strange to brewers who go to great lengths to keep out airborne contaminants,
but this is not a worry in English brewing.  Like all brewers, English ale 
brewers are very careful to sanitize everything that comes in contact with 
the cast out wort, especially as the wort drops below 170F.  A clean and 
sanitized fermenter, in conjunction with clean healthy yeast pitched with a
cell content of between 6-12 million cells per ml will ensure a rapid start
to fermentation, and the subsequent production of vast amounts of CO2 which
will blanket the fermenting wort, and thus protect the beer from airborne
contaminants. Once the fermentation is active, the pH of the beer will be 
dropping rapidly from an initial level of 5.4 down to the mid 4 range, and
with some strains as low as 4.1.  This acidulation of the wort, in conjunction
with the large production of CO2 results in an environment quite unhospitable
to most airborne bacteria.  The key, as with all brewing, is to pitch an 
adequate amount of healthy clean, cultured yeast slurry. .


In open fermenters, the brewer 
must skim the yeast head off the beer between days 2 and 3 of normal ferments.
Often, the trub that rises to the top after day one is removed to reduce 
particulate matter that can lead to astringency problems. The use of open 
fermenters provides an easy method for the observation and skimming 
requirements
of top fermented ales.  With typical top fermenting strains, healthy white 
yeast is cropped off during day 3 or 4 of fermentation and stored for reuse.
Yeasts collected from healthy ferments can be repitched for hundreds of 
generations provided the brewery is clean and the brewer is acutely noting
fermentation performance.  Any degredation in yeast performance should be 
corrected by replacement of the strain with fresh stock.  Fermentation is 
usually complete within 5-7 days at 60-70F.  At this time, the beer is racked
into maturation tanks where it can sit for a brief conditioning period.  
Alternatively, the still beer may be racked directly into the cask.  The 
important point is that the transfer is done with approximately one degree
Plato (1.004) of residual extract left in the still beer, and between .25 -
2 million yeast cells per ml of still beer [1].  The residual extract may also 
be supplied in the form of priming sugars. This is
accomplished by preparing a solution of brewers sugar (glucose) at a specific
gravity of 1.150 (34P) and adding to the cask at a rate of .35 to 1.75 l/hl.
Cast out wort as well as krausen beer can be used, but in the latter case,
excessive yeast cells may interfere with the clarification in the cask.  As the
casks are filled, a fining agent is added to the vessal, usually in the form of
isinglass in quantities of 1-5 litres per UK BBL [2].  Isinglass is 
composed of collagen molecules which carry an overall positive charge.  Since 
yeast will exhibit an overall negative charge, an electrostatic attraction
will result, leading to clumping of yeast & isinglass particles and then 
sedimentation.  The process of clarification requires about a day to result
in a "star brilliance" to the beer [3]. Beers with residual yeast levels of
2 million cells per ml or above will be more difficult to clarify.  Many 
brewers also add whole hops at a rate of 1/2 to 3 oz/BBl at cask filling time.  
With the advent of modern packaging in vessals like polypins some brewers are
using hop oil extracts to mimic some of the character found in cask hopped 
ales.  At this point, the cask ale is ready for transport to the publicans 
cellar.

********end part 1**********

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Date:      21 Apr 94 09:46:09
From: MS08653 at MSBG.med.ge.com
Subject: Looking for special beers


From: "MICHAEL L. TEED"<MS08653 at MSBG>


   Dist:  INTERNET

 int homebrew at hpfcmi.fc.hp.com

So many questions, so little time. I am looking for opinions on any beers that
may be worthy of hunting down and bringing back home from Norway and the
surrounding areas. The other half is traveling there in June. I am hoping to
find a few beers that might prove worthy of culturing yeasts from, but that is
not the only requirement.

Any comments on the procedure of bringing beers back to the USA, along with spe
cific specialties to the area worthy of the limited carrying space on board
would be appreciated. Private EMail is fine, my address is MS08653 at MSBG.med.ge.
com ( note the upper case ). Thanks in advance.     Michael Teed


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Date: Thu, 21 Apr 1994 10:25:11 -0400 (EST)
From: BUKOFSKY <sjb8052 at minerva.cis.yale.edu>
Subject: Fear of dry-hopping

All,

  I've been toying with the idea of trying dry-hopping for the first time
in my next beer (a pale ale).  I love a good hop flavor/aroma, but I have
found many dry-hopped brews too overpowering for my taste.  I like the
flavor/aroma to be subtle, but very noticeable.  My current method of
steeping the hops the last few minutes of the boil doesn't give me enough
aroma.  Would dry-hopping a small amount (1/4-1/2 oz.) help me out, or is
this too little?  I don't wan't to overpower my beer with hops (I think
SNPA is too hoppy for my taste, to give you an idea of what I consider
"too much hops").  Any advice on dry-hopping small amounts, or for shorter
times?

Thanks,
Scott

No cute comment.  



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Date: Thu, 21 Apr 1994 08:00:56 -0700
From: Mark Bellefeuille <mcb at mcdpxs.phx.mcd.mot.com>
Subject: re: GuppyMasher(tm)

X-Mailer: Siren Mail (Motif 1.2 94/03/14)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-ID: <109_6532_766940455_25 at mcdpxs>
Content-type: text/plain

Please don't post this kind of writeup to the hbd again. I started 
chuckling when the manifold was built. Continued with the moto tool,
and broke down and laughed when the chiller description was finished.
My workmates started asking questions and to a non brewer something is
lost in the translation. :-)
I moved to all-grain quickly; however, since I was constantly improving
my equipment for my extract w/adjunct brews the delta was only the cost
of an EasyMasher(tm) from JSP. The cost of chiller should not be charged
to all-grain, neither should the cost of a full wort boil brewpot. These
items make extract brewers better brewers by themselves. I switched to
full wort boils with an immersion chiller on my 3 third brew and I've had
friends comment that my homebrew doesn't have 'that homebrew taste' from
my first batch (cooled in a large ice bath in 20mins).
I will continue to make improvements which will also cause me to buy new
toys (What brand moto tool was that? Gee how many different attachments
can I get for it? :-))
As long as we enjoy the process and the end product... 
keep brewing,
mark
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------
Mark C. Bellefeuille                     INTERNET: mcb at phx.mcd.mot.com

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Date: Thu, 21 Apr 1994 10:34:27 -0400 (EDT)
From: Jim Busch <busch at daacdev1.stx.com>
Subject: cask ales, pt 2

Maturation of Cask Ales:

After the cask is shipped to the local pub, it is no longer the direct 
responsibility of the brewer to finish the conditioning job.  This task falls
onto the publican/cellarmaster.  In the old days, it was the cellarmasters
duty to add the finings to the casks as they arrived from the brewery, but
this is not common today.  Once delivered to the pub, the cask is placed onto
its stillage, and allowed to sit for 2-3 days.  During this time the cask is
udergoing the secondary fermentation in the cask, or cask conditioning.  One 
day prior to serving, the cask must be prepared for dispense.  This is done 
by driving the hard spile (non porous wood peg) into the shive (round plug
device on top side of cask, this would be equivelent to a bung on older US
kegs).  The spile is essentially a primitive CO2 valve, a nonporous one is
used to close the cask for overnight storage while a porous spile is used 
during dispense to allow a path for air to enter the cask, allowing the beer
to be pulled by the beer engine.  When the spile is first hammered into 
the cask, the cellarmaster allows the CO2 to vent from the cask, preventing 
CO2 buildup levels that would not be welcome to real ale lovers.  The final
step in tapping the cask is to drive the tap into the keystone (actual port
through which the ale is "pulled").  A minimum of one day settling is required
to ensure that the tapping process did not disturb too much yeast.  The next
day, the cellarmaster will sample the beer to determine when it is ready. This
is an extremely important part of the process and a major reason why many 
cask ales are not served at their peak of flavor.  Some beers require a little
more time than others to reach their peak.  

********end part 2***************

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End of HOMEBREW Digest #1405, 04/22/94