FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Rob Gardner, Digest Janitor


Contents:
  Re: Misc (Jim Busch)
  Various attempts to recover credibility (Jeff Frane)
  Stuck Fermentation in All Grain Batch (mmunsey)
  Malt Liquor, Extract Syrups (Todd Jennings)
  Brewpub(s) in Indianapois? ("John L. Isenhour")
  Keg Kettles / Two Stage Process / Partial Mashing (npyle)
  Hops in Yeast Starter - Summary (Domenick Venezia)
  Someone help me dry hop? ( LARRY KELLY)
  Easymasher once again... (Ed Hitchcock)
  Someone help me dry hop? ( LARRY KELLY)
  Cancel ( LARRY KELLY)
  Spruce Beer (00rjzakjr)
  IPA with strange stuff in it. (Marc Provencher)
  Re: Will the real Alt yeast please stand up ("Roger Deschner  ")
  Pumpkin ale (Maurice Mastrapasqua (431)-2982)
  Filteration Ideas (HACKETTC)
  Steeping hops - followup (Domenick Venezia)
  first all-grain batch (Jason Sloan)
  Yeast/RingArndCollar/BigBreak/grainy/starters/aspergillus/stuckferment (korz)
  Starch taste/Carbonation (David Draper)
  "USING HOPS" (Gary S. Kuyat)
  Thai Curry Beer (ANDY WALSH)
  Bavarian vs. Munich Wyeast (Phil Brushaber)
  Guerrilla Beer (Allen Glass)
  Priming Rate/Thermometer correction/Heat transfer (Philip Gravel)
  Copper and Objectives (Jack Schmidling)
  Relocating to Dallas-Ft Worth (pje0r1t)
  Re: Propane Cookers (Jay D. Hinkens)
  Heat Wave Brew Temps (DUBOVIK)
  Scortching (Steve Scampini)
  Hops in Starters (Gary S. Kuyat)


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----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Tue, 14 Jun 1994 09:56:48 -0400 (EDT)
From: Jim Busch <busch at daacdev1.stx.com>
Subject: Re: Misc

Phil writes:
> 
> I have been pretty successful filtering some of my beers using a 
> cartridge filter. (You know the one which is about 12" high, popularized 
> by "The Filter Store", also used by home applications like Teledyne).
> 
> When I bought it, it came with a 0.5 micron filter. (Great for light 
> lagers, filters haze, all yeast and even some bacteria). From a local 
> hardware store I got a 5 micron water filter (sometime used on some 
> darker beers, gets out any junk, but does not filter chill haze or bacteria).
> 
> What I am looking for is a 3 micron filter (recommended by George Fix).
> Dr. Fix says that it is a good compromise filtering out haze and large 
> amounts of yeast but not too much body. Does anyone out there know of a 
> source for a filter of this size? (3 micron) Thanks!!

George uses a different kind of filter than a cartridge.  Its pretty
hard to find a 3 micron cart filter with the required efficiency numbers.
The Filter Store does sell a 5 micron high efficiency cart filter, its
about $22 versus $31 for the .5 .  You are quite right, 5 (and 3) microns
will not remove haze and bacteria, at least completely.  Some haze will
be reduced, but I suspect if you have a large chill haze problem, 3 is
not going to resolve this.  It was my understanding that 3/5 is real good 
for a polished product, free of most (over 95%) of the yeast biomass.  

The 5's from the HW store are just not that good, the efficiency is too
low.  It is good for a one shot disposable yeast filter.  A professional
DE filter is good to around 5-7 microns, and if this is good enough for
my favorite micros, its good enough for me.

Lots has been said about the use of large amounts of IM, rehydrated. I
think this is a good idea along with some aging, and a 5 micron filter.
(if you want real clear beers).

Bill writes:
> Subject:      Partial Mashing and Partial Volume Boils
> However, I'm still doing a partial volume boil, just like extract
> brewing, which leads me to question if there are any major drawbacks to
> this approach?  I know that bittering hops don't isomerize as well in
> higher density worts (so I just use more hops), but I was wondering are
> there any other concerns beside this?

It will result in a darker beer, more melanoiden reactions (browning
reactions).  You can account for this in your recipe formulation, but
it will change your beers as compared with a full boil.  A full boil 
pot, be it a keg or other, is one of the best investments a brewer can 
make to improve extract based beers.  This and great fresh Ale yeast,
is the trick.

Good brewing,

Jim Busch


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Date: Tue, 14 Jun 1994 07:00:37 -0700 (PDT)
From: Jeff Frane <gummitch at teleport.com>
Subject: Various attempts to recover credibility

Thomas Aylesworth writes:
> 
> First, Jeff Frane writes:
> 
> >A couple of brewers have asked about the problem of "ring around the
> >collar" in their bottles, and wondered about the lack of any off-flavor.
> >The answer is that YES, this is a contamination and YES it seems to be
> >otherwise benign.  
> 
> My question is, do all (or even most) infections leave the tell-tale
> ring around the bottle?  

Not only do not all infections cause a ring around the neck, but several
e-correspondents have reminded me that not all rings are the result of
infection.  I put my foot in it (not again!) about that one, forgetting
that several people (including Dave Miller) have reported the incidence
of neck rings when priming with wort.  I have yet to find a convincing
explanation of that one -- Miller says it's yeast and hop residue,
others have suggested proteinaceous material.  Someone (God, where are
my notes!?) reported neck rings in the wiezenbier he was making,
following Eric Warner's recommendations for *Speise* priming.

I know that not only wort-primings result in neck rings -- so now, where
are we?


Steve Stroud has been paying attention (stop that!!!):

> 
> IN HBD#1447, Jeff Frane offers up a tasty looking PA extract recipe:
> 
> Jeff says that the grains are steeped for an hour at 150 deg F before sparging
> them into a kettle.
> 
> I have no doubt that this is indeed a scrumptious brew, yet I wonder about the
> formulation.  I seem to recall an exchange a couple of weeks ago between Jeff 
> and Al K. about the uses of flaked maize and Jeff made a statement to the 
> effect that he didn't know why someone would steep flaked maize by itself - as
> opposed to using it in a mini-mash.  
> 
> Jeff, could you comment on your grain steeping in this recipe?  According to 
> the info that I have read about the Belgian color malts, theyhave no enzymatic
> power.  So what do you hope to accomplish by steeping the maize and the barle 
>  And what do you tell your students when you do this?  Do you talk about 
> enzymes, conversion, starch hazes, etc?
> 

No.

Look, Stroud, do I hang on every word you write?  And dog you when you
mis-step?  No, I don't.

When I revised this recipe for another new brewer, I added some pale
malt, but that was before this batch of beer finished.  The truth is,
there isn't any starch haze, which is pretty much what my initial
initial feeling about this was -- that was what caused me to make a
comment that precipitated Al Korzonas' comment that...  So if you want
consistency, buy yogurt.

I am reasonably convinced that in the small (some might say minute)
quantities that we are dealing with here, some conversion takes place.
Certainly, there is an extraction of color and sweetness, and a decided
contribution to body and head retention.  I was interested in
replicating, as much as possible, a similar all-grain formulation and
was doing it on the wing in class.  In retrospect, it might require more
examination but the fact remains that the beer turned out exceptionally
well.  Go figure.

Generally speaking, I don't get into conversion, etc. at all in the
beginning class.  Lord knows there's enough to stuff into four hours as
it is just explaining the difference between an ale and a lager, and how
many forms they'll find hops in.

- --Jeff



> Just wondering,
> Steve S.
> 
> 
> 


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Date: Tue, 14 Jun 94 10:04:40 EST
From: mmunsey at viewlogic.com
Subject: Stuck Fermentation in All Grain Batch


     
SUBJECT:    GRAIN STUCK FERMENT???
     
I am a relatively experienced extract brewer who has finally taken "the 
plunge".  I hope someone can help me with this problem (or at least tell me 
if I have one).  Private e-mail is preferred.  It seems that fermentation is 
happening quite sluggishly in my second all-grain batch.  In the 100 or so 
extract batches that I've brewed or helped to brew, I have never experienced 
an stuck fermentation.  With this batch, I am at least very concerned (if 
not worried).  Now for the specifics:
                   Batch Size    13.5 gal
                   Grain         28 lb, all M&F two row pale ale 
                   Mash Temp     148 for 40 min, 154 for 20 min
                                 Mash out & Sparge  at  170 deg
                                 (no protein rest)
                   Yeast         Wyeast 1056 (American Ale), 1 l starter 
                   Pitch Temp    83 Deg F
                   O.G.          1.067 after being corrected to 60 deg 
                   Ferment Temp  64 Deg F
A day after pitching, the yeast responded as normal or only slightly less 
vigorously than normal.  By the fifth day, all activity in the airlock 
appears to have stopped.  This morning (day six), I removed a sample and 
found its SG to be 1.028.  The wort was still very sweet tasting.  I also 
did the iodine test (I never preformed this test during the mashing process 
but I still think I would get a valid result) and it indicated a complete 
conversion.  I added about 2 tsp yeast nutrient in the hope to get the thing 
going again.  If anyone can point out any errors that I've made or
can offer any explanation for this slow ferment, I would be greatly 
appreciative.
     
     Michael Munsey
     mmunsey at viewlogic.com
     

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Date: 14 Jun 94 10:22:06 EDT
From: jennings at readmore.com (Todd Jennings)
Subject: Malt Liquor, Extract Syrups

Bill K writes:
> What is the difference between malt liquor and beer (ale and lager)?

Malt Liquor is simply a legal term the government contrived to describe 
beer above a certain % of ABV.  It's as much beer as anything else being 
sold out there. Whether we here in this forum call it beer is another 
story.

Bill Hollingsworth writes:
> one thing I noticed early on as a beginning brewer was that malt 
extract syrups seemed to carry over >a tinny, metallic taste to the final 
product (I remember thinking that some of my early beers ended up 
>tasting just like the syrup had smelled in the can).

Bill, Trinity Malt Works produces a variety of malt syrups which are 
packaged in heavy plastic pouches(not cans), which are then boxed.  You 
may want to give these a try B4 bagging all syrups in deference to DME.  
They work for me.
==========================================================================
==========
Todd Jennings                                                             
     "In my head I'm so ugly, but that's
tjenning at readmore.com                                                 OK 
'cause so are you."
==========================================================================
==========

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Date: Tue, 14 Jun 1994 09:36:40 CST
From: "John L. Isenhour" <isenhour at lambic.fnal.gov>
Subject: Brewpub(s) in Indianapois?

I'll be in Indianapolis this saturday and I'd like to have lunch at a brewpub.
Can someone give me names and directions?

tnx!


John Isenhour                       
renaissance scientist and AHA/HWBTA National Beer Judge 
home: john at hopduvel.chi.il.us
work: isenhour at lambic.fnal.gov 


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Date: Tue, 14 Jun 94 8:33:41 MDT
From: npyle at n33.ecae.stortek.com
Subject: Keg Kettles / Two Stage Process / Partial Mashing

Charles Jackson writes:

>  My next newbie question:  I have obtained a propane burner and am looking
>for a cheap kettle to allow me to boil the entire volume of my lowly extract
>wort.

In answer to your question, you can get a keg with the top already cut off
for you from somebody (BCI?, someone help me out here) for right around $40.
You have to pay shipping, but it could turn out to be the cheapest
alternative.  They work well as boiling vessels.  Pet peeve:  the phrase
"lowly extract" was certainly meant as a joke, since if you really thought
that way, you probably wouldn't be brewing.  I see this thrown around a lot,
and I think that extract brewers ought to stand up for themselves.  How about
"extremely time-efficient and damn good extract wort"?  Too long I guess.

**

David Rodger, try this:

Brew Day:
- --------

Boil wort
Cool wort
Pour cooled wort through a screen into the plastic bucket to remove break
   material and hops, and also to aerate
Pitch yeast

Next Week:
- ---------
Rack from plastic bucket to glass carboy

Another Week:
- ------------
Bottle

It is simpler, makes good beer and leaves most of the extra yeast behind.

**

I like Bill Hollingsworth's article about partial mashing, but I don't
understand why he bothers to steep his specialty grains separately.  Adding
them to your mash seems more logical as it simplifies the process.  Anyway,
partial mashing opens up the wide world of grains (there are some really good
ones out there!) to the extract brewer; you don't have to restrict yourself
to the non-mash specialties anymore.

Cheers,
Norm = npyle at hp7001.stortek.com

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Date: Tue, 14 Jun 1994 07:40:42 -0700 (PDT)
From: Domenick Venezia <venezia at zgi.com>
Subject: Hops in Yeast Starter - Summary

To all those who responded to my question, publically and privately,
thank you very much.  The two major themes were:

1.  Preservative effects of the hops on wort.  An issue if you "can" 
    your media ahead of time.

2.  Attempt not to shock yeast with different environments.  

If you make up your yeast starter on demand then 1 above is not an issue,
and I would guess (a total guess, hunch, intuition, no data to back this
up) that temperature is the greatest potential shock to your yeast.  If
you start your yeast starter at 1.050 and let it go for a couple days your
SG may be down around 1.020 when you pitch it into 1.050 wort.  That's a
pretty good osmotic shock but we do it every time and the yeast doesn't
seem to mind.  It just says, "yum, yum, dinner!" and goes at it.

I'm going to use unhopped starters from now on until I see some effects
or new data convincing me otherwise.  If I note anything I'll post the
findings.

Domenick Venezia
ZymoGenetics, Inc.
Seattle, WA
venezia at zgi.com






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Date: Tue, 14 Jun 1994 11:05:52 EDT
From: KMYH09A at prodigy.com ( LARRY KELLY)
Subject: Someone help me dry hop?

I would like to try "Dry Hopping", and I have a few questions:

1) What type of hop should be used when dry hopping? Pellet, Whole, Leaf

2) Do you just drop them into the secondary or primary?

3) Should the be placed in some type of nylon straining bag for easy
removal before racking? If answer to the nylon bag is yes, should the bag
be sanitized with say B-Brite?

4) How long does one keep the hops in the wort?

5) What's a good hop to use for dry hopping?

Larry
KMYH09A at prodigy.com


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Date: Tue, 14 Jun 1994 13:19:25 -0300
From: Ed Hitchcock <ECH at ac.dal.ca>
Subject: Easymasher once again...

Okay, this is about making a clear point, this is about personal attacks, 
this is about astringency, this is about accepted practices, this is about 
personal taste, this is about water chemistry...
	Let's back up a little.  It can (and is) argued that the Easymash 
technique is not perfect.  Jack himself will not deny that it has a few of 
it's own personal quirks.  But this whole thing started with an attack on 
Jack's article in BT.  That attack was unfounded.  Jack's article 
introduces the Easymasher as a cheap, reasonable method to get into all 
grain brewing, nothing more or less.  He gives instructions for the first 
brew that call for boiling sparge water.  He explicitly states that the 
brewer may want to use a thermometer in later batches to adjust the sparge 
temperature, but for the first batch, to keep things simple, just use 
boiling water.  There is absolutely no harm in that.  Most homebrewers make 
a complete botch of their first all grain batch.  I think I used a colander 
as a lauter tun, and I may well have used boiling or near boiling water.  
The point is that I started all grain brewing.  I learned and I got better. 
If we are to give every potential all grain brewer the third degree about 
pH and water temperature and polyphenol extraction and O2 saturation and 
temperature stability and HSA and kettle coagulants and maillard reactions 
and redox reactions and immersion vs counterflow chillers (you get the 
idea...) they will never start all grain brewing.  Jack's article presents 
an easy way to start all grain brewing, provides instructions for the first 
batch, and says, basically, okay I got you this far now you can start 
experimenting on your own.  I have personally argued with some of Jack's 
techniques and tidbits of information; sure boiling sparge water may 
extract more tannins, or it may only work properly in Chicago.  But the 
point is the article, taken for it's own merits, is not guilty of anything 
except being written by Jack, which is not a punishable offense.
	Have a nice day.


	/Ed Hitchcock---ech at ac.dal.ca---------------------------\
	|							|
	|	D0 NOT FOLD, SPINDLE OR MUTILATE	000	|
	|							|
	\Anatomy&Neurobiology---Dalhousie University---Halifax--/


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Date: Tue, 14 Jun 1994 12:57:58 EDT
From: KMYH09A at prodigy.com ( LARRY KELLY)
Subject: Someone help me dry hop?

I would like to try "Dry Hopping", and I have a few questions:

1) What type of hop should be used when dry hopping? Pellet, Whole, Leaf, Plugs?

2) Do you just drop them into the secondary or primary?

3) Should the be placed in some type of nylon straining bag for easy
removal before racking? If answer to the nylon bag is yes, should the bag
be sanitized with say B-Brite?

4) How long does one keep the hops in the wort?

5) What's a good hop to use for dry hopping?

6) How many ounces of hops should I use on the average?

Larry
KMYH09A at prodigy.com


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Date: Tue, 14 Jun 1994 13:34:52 EDT
From: KMYH09A at prodigy.com ( LARRY KELLY)
Subject: Cancel

cancel article 06140912.22194


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Date: Tue, 14 Jun 1994 12:37:53 -0500 (EST)
From: 00rjzakjr at bsuvc.bsu.edu
Subject: Spruce Beer

A little while back there was a thread in which people were trashing
spruce beer as being undrinkable for the pine-tar taste.  The 
problem is not with spruce beer per se but with the recipes you all
were following.  I've made about five or six batches of the stuff
and me and the wife like it a lot.  The first few times when we lived
in Maine we followed Papazian's Black Honey Spruce recipe, using
a pint jar filled loosely with cuttings of the new growth of
spruce trees in the spring--the real bright green tips.  I boiled
these for about ten minutes.  It resulted in a good, clean spruce
flavor that was not overpowering at all.  Now that we live in Indiana
(but are soon moving to New York State soon, I'm glad to report) I
have used spruce essence from Beer and Wine Hobby in Bedford (I think)
Mass. (std. disclaimer).  Half a bottle of this in the aforementioned
papazian recipe also gives a clean sprucy flavor that isn't at all
pine tar-like.  Just a nice, refreshing change from hops.
THe moral of the story is, if you want to try spruce beer but were
discouraged by articles here, don't be.  Just my humble opinion.

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Date: Tue, 14 Jun 94 13:06:52 EDT
From: marcp at cae.ca (Marc Provencher)
Subject: IPA with strange stuff in it.

This is my first posting to the HBD, so I hope I'm doing this right.

I'm brewing an IPA, (straight out of Papazian's book), and something 
strange seems to be going on in there.  My brew has spent about 1 1/2
week in the secondary now, and there is a very thin layer of *something*
floating about 2/3 of the way up in the carboy.  The stuff is very light
beige in color (almost white), and it just seems to be suspended there,
in a nice horizontal layer, as if there were two liquids of different 
densities in the carboy, and this was where they met.

Last night was the first night I looked at the carboy since about a week
now (the "Relax, have a homebrew" attitude...), so I don't know if the 
stuff is actually coming from the top on its way down, or from the 
bottom on its way up.

This is the first time I use "Oak Chips" in the secondary.  Has anyone
noticed "unusual" suspended goodies in their brew with this technique?

Some technical data:

Temperature is about 17 C *constant*, and I used Wyeast American Ale.

Comments anyone???

Marc Provencher
CAE Electronics Ltd.
Montreal Canada
marcp at cae.ca


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Date: Tue, 14 Jun 1994 12:34:29 CDT
From: "Roger Deschner " <U52983 at UICVM.UIC.EDU>
Subject: Re: Will the real Alt yeast please stand up

The latest, just-arrived issue of ZYMURGY lists Wyeast 1338 as being a
true Dusseldorf Altbier strain. It lists 1007 as being a Kolsch yeast.
Several different articles in Zymurgy, by different authors, have said
the same things. I believe the Zymurgy articles, even though the Wyeast
folks themselves disagree. (Hence part of the confusion here.) I have
read elsewhere that the new Wyeast Kolsch yeast (without the starter) is
a strain newly brought over from Cologne.

Wyeast 1338 *DOES* leave high residual maltiness. This is how you get a
good malt profile in a medium-gravity (1048 max) brew. It is necessary to
heave in a lot of hops to compensate for this residual maltiness. Like
about 50 IBUs worth. (Ref: Michael Jackson's Pocket Guide to Beer) The
result of high malt residual and high hop levels is a very "big" beer
that is not too highly alcoholic, so it can be an everyday beverage. And
that's Altbier!

50 IBUs is CONTRARY to the AHA guidelines, but don't worry - most judges
nowdays realize that the AHA guidelines on Altbiers are low in the hop
level. A 50 IBU Altbier, if "balanced", will most likely be judged
correctly, despite the guidelines. If you combine 50 IBUs with a highly
attenuative yeast like 1007, you'll get something more British - more
dry, bitter, alcoholic, less balanced.

Also remember, as has been said here earlier, that Altbier is a broad
target. There is wide variation even within the Dusseldorf brewpubs,
including a really big, alcoholic, dry-hopped, seasonal specialty called
Stiecke. A good understanding of the variations can be gained from
Michael Jackson's Pocket Guide - which can be used as a tour guide as
well.

=============== "Civilization was CAUSED by beer." =====================
Roger Deschner    University of Illinois at Chicago   R.Deschner at uic.edu

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Date: Tue, 14 Jun 94 15:26:27 EDT
From: mhm5600 at sudcv91.ed.ray.com (Maurice Mastrapasqua (431)-2982)
Subject: Pumpkin ale

Does anybody have a goo recipe for pumpkin ale?????
I would appreciate the help..

Moe Mastrapasqua               mhm5600 at sudcv91.ed.ray.com

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Date: Tue, 14 Jun 1994 15:36:37 -0400 (EDT)
From: HACKETTC at COFC.EDU
Subject: Filteration Ideas

Hello out there in brewing land,
	
		My name is Carrie and I am new to this list and fairly new 
at microbrewing.  I have so far made one Lager and two Ales (three 10 gallon 
batches, all grain).  I am kegging and have a couple questions.  Can anyone 
supply me with plans to build a counter pressure bottle filler?  Also, I 
need info. on a basic filteration set up that is reasonably priced.
You can e-mail directly at IN%"HackettC at CofC.EDU" 
My fax# 803-953-6763

Thanks in advance,
Carrie Hackett
College of Charleston


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Date: Tue, 14 Jun 1994 12:35:32 -0700 (PDT)
From: Domenick Venezia <venezia at zgi.com>
Subject: Steeping hops - followup

I have only heard from a few people about the issue of steeping hops after
the boil as opposed to dry hopping.  Spencer Thomas brought up the
interesting point that 

"... by sealing up the hot wort, you're inviting DMS production and
retention.  A little bit will increase the perceived "maltiness" of your
beer.  Too much is not good.  Depends on your malt and on the length of
the boil how much you'll get, of course."

My last 30 minute steep did not seem to yield much DMS, but my
understanding is that British pale malts are low in existing DMS, unlike
lager malts, so perhaps the next batch I can push to 60 minutes.  

Thanks to all who responded.

Domenick Venezia 
ZymoGenetics, Inc. 
Seattle, WA 
venezia at zgi.com 




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Date: Tue, 14 Jun 1994 16:08:00 -0400
From: aa3625 at freenet.lorain.oberlin.edu (Jason Sloan)
Subject: first all-grain batch



Hi.  I have decided to make the jump to an all grain brew.  Could
someone please send me instructions on how to convert a 5 gallon
Gott cooler.  Also, could someone send me a good, simple recipe
which would be suitable for a first-timer.
Thanks,
Jason

- --
Jason Sloan
sloan01?jason at cc01.mssc.edu or aa3625 at freenet.lorain.oberlin.edu
- ---Yo ho ho and a bucket of homebrew...

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Date: 14 Jun 94 20:43:00 GMT
From: korz at iepubj.att.com
Subject: Yeast/RingArndCollar/BigBreak/grainy/starters/aspergillus/stuckferment

Regarding the OP recipes that Simon posted, I'd like to address one of my
pet peaves, which is rampant throughout hb books, including Dave Line's,
Graham Wheeler's and Charlie Papazian's.  That is lines like:

>Brew using your favourite technique for non-mashed beer and ferment with your
>favourite ale yeast.

as if the yeast you used was immaterial.  In fact, it is one of the biggest
contributors to the flavor of the beer (which Simon also noted):

>The 'peculier' attributes of
>this type of yeast played a significant part in the overall flavour profile
>of the beer. Following Scottish & Newcastle breweries' takeover of
>Theakstons, 90% of O.P. now made is brewed by  in large stainless-steel
>fermenters in Newcastle-on-Tyne, Northern England, using a more
>general-purpose yeast. Thus much of the original flavour has, in my opinion,
>been lost.

Even un-peculiar yeasts have flavor profiles and the difference between
a beer made with Nottingham will taste very different from one brewed
with Wyeast London Ale or Red Star Ale or Coopers or...

As much as the recipes that you find in the books I mentioned above will
get you pointed in the right direction, you will still have to experiment
with yeasts to get close to the original beer.  I feel that this is an
important point that is often neglected, especially by book authors.

***************

Jeff writes:
>A couple of brewers have asked about the problem of "ring around the
>collar" in their bottles, and wondered about the lack of any off-flavor.
>The answer is that YES, this is a contamination and YES it seems to be
>otherwise benign.

Don't be so quick to say "it's an infection."  Were these beers primed
with Dried Malt Extract?  If so, did you force-cool the priming solution?
If you did force-chill the priming solution, did you decant off the
cold break?  I tracked down, what I had believed to be an infection,
to priming with DME.  It seems that the proteins that would be hot and
cold break appear to float on the top of the beer in the bottle and
leave a sort of stretchy, "oily," slick on top of the beer.  I've
since switched back to corn sugar for priming and have never had that
problem again.

***************

Jeff writes:
>The Irish Moss caused a *massive* break.

And the extract recipe included:

>1/4# flaked barley
>1/4# flaked maize

Please don't think I'm picking on you today, Jeff, but we have had differing
opinions on the use of flaked grains without mashing them and I feel that
your post supports my position.  I'm pretty confident that the massive
break was, for the most part, due to the unmashed grains.  Since this recipe
is for a class, I suspect that you'll be making it again.  Could you try it
without the flaked grains and report on the difference in the break and
the finished beer?  I'd be very interested.  I believe that the grains
do add some beta glucans to the beer, so there may be a difference in the
beer, but the majority of the weight of the flaked grains is starch and
very little of the weight is anything fermentable, therefore, I personally
feel that the grains will add more starch haze and break material than
anything else.

*********
00rjzakjr writes:
>recently I am trying my hand at all-grain batches.  I've made about six
>or so.  One thing they all have in common is a bitter, grainy taste. I 
>thought that it was due to my sparging techniques which were bad.  But
>I followed instructions from Papazian and the all-grain list on sierra for
>my last batch and it too had that bitter grainy taste.  I use a zapap
>lauter-tun.  My beers also lack a residual malty sweetness, eventhough I
>infusion mash at about 155 F.  Any ideas on what I'm doing wrong?

Could be many things, but you didn't give a recipe.  One thing that comes
to mind is: what's your pH?  If it's much over 6, you are probably leaching
tannins out of your grain during sparging and this may be the source of
your graininess.  Check both the pH of the mash and the pH of the runnings.
The mash pH might be right on without any additions, but the sparge may
quickly drive the pH up.  If this is the case, then you only need to acidify
your sparge water.

********
Domenick asks whether we hop our starters.

Personally, I don't.  I know about the antibacterial effects of hops, but
choose to keep the starters (in 1- or 2-liter Erlenmeyers) in the kitchen
exposed to bright light.  As many posts have already pointed out, I don't
want my starter smelling like Heineken.

*******
Rich (who undoubtedly is paying attention in that Siebel class) writes:

>Mildewed ro moldy grain may be growing Aspergillus, which is a source of
>Alphatoxins.  This substance is a known carcinagen... something I don't
>think you'll want in your beer.

Someone check me on this, but I believe that not all Aspergillus is nasty.
I believe that some form of Aspergillus is what is used to make Sake.

You have to be careful with that class, Rich.  You would not be the first
person I know to come out of it with "Chicken Little Syndrome" (the sky
is falling!).  One person I know who took that class now smells diacetyl
in every beer.

*******
douglas writes:
>I have a helles bock which started at 1.083 and has stopped
>at 1.040.  I've tried yeast energizer but it hasn't helped.

It would help if you gave your recipe, but I'll take a shot at it anyway.
If you used all Laaglander Dried Malt extract, then it's done.  Laaglander
is only about 55% fermentable (apparent attenuation).

Al.

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Date: Wed, 15 Jun 1994 07:48:10 +1000 (EST)
From: David Draper <David.Draper at mq.edu.au>
Subject: Starch taste/Carbonation

In today's digest Norm asks if anyone else has ever had a starch haze bad
enough to taste.  I have!  Owing to a lethal combination of careless
inattention and native stupidity, I once brewed the World's Worst Beer
(tm).  It was one of those use-what's-left-in-the-cupboard brews: Had the
remnants of all my specialty grains (few ozs each of choc, crystal, flaked
maize, and wheat malt) plus a half pound of what I thought was flaked
barley, which I had just bought, in a 5-lb extract, 5 imp gallon batch. I
was using a recipe of Dave Line's as a rough guide, but I'm not blaming that.
Bottom line was that the barley wasn't flaked, wasn't malted--it was raw
barley.  The taste is hard to describe--it was even harder to tolerate. 
The cloudiness *never* went away--months later it was still opaque with a
cm-deep layer of crap on the bottom of the bottles. Ugh!  No Norm, you
weren't imagining things.

My carbonation problems, about which I have posted a couple times
recently, are over.  The culprit was the bag of substance that claimed to
be dextrose.  It wasn't.  Two batches have now been primed (in bulk,
finally got a bottling bucket) with brown sugar (they're dark beers) at
*lower* rates than used in my most extremely-primed tries with that stuff,
and the carbonation is great.  Many thanks to all those who
offered helpful comments that helped me work out the source of the problem.
Cheers, Dave in Sydney
- -- 
******************************************************************************
David S. Draper			School of Earth Sciences, Macquarie University
ddraper at laurel.ocs.mq.edu.au	NSW 2109 Sydney, Australia
Fax: +61-2-805-8428		Voice: +61-2-805-8347

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Date: Tue, 14 Jun 94 17:57:29 EDT
From: Gary S. Kuyat <gsk at sagan.bellcore.com>
Subject: "USING HOPS"
Full-Name: Gary S. Kuyat

I am surprised that I haven't seen a review of USING HOPS, by Mark Garetz in
HBD yet.  I feel a need to pass on reviews of good products (to the point of
having people ask me if I make $$$ on sale of same) and so I'm commenting on
Mark's Book.

This is a good book.  Lotsa good info on what hops are good in which beer,
which hops make good substitutes for other hops, and even info on how to grow
your own.

Mark's formulas for IBU prediction may cause some controversy, but he explains
WHY elements of the formulas are included.  The lineage of different strains of
hops is discussed and these relationships are used to show hop varieties as a
spectrum, rather than unrelated and pot luck.  Data on characteristics of hop
varieties is presented in a way that will let the reader make more intellegent
substitutions in recipies.

Not that there are many out there, but this is the best book on hops I have
read to date.  It's a good read, and a good reference as well.

(Nice job Mark!)

- --
 -Gary Kuyat
  gsk at sagan.bellcore.com
  (908)699-8422

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Date: Wed, 15 Jun 94 10:20:42 +1000
From: ANDY WALSH <awalsh at ozemail.com.au>
Subject: Thai Curry Beer

Mark Fryling's mead recipe sounds like my Thai Curry beer. 
I have been experimenting with Thai spices in a 
Belgian wit eg.
2kg pale malt
2kg wheat malt
500g clover honey
any hops 5HBU (bittering only)
ale yeast (Wyeyeast German is good)
spice mixture (mixed in blender)
1oz coriander seed
1/2 oz galangal root
1/2 oz ginger root
1 oz lemongrass
chilli (hot) to taste

Method: As usual but add 1/3 the spice mixture at T-30,
1/3 at T-15 and 1/3 T-2 and steep.

This gives a very unusual beer which most people like.
I think the spices balance the chilli and the result is much
better than chilli only beer.
Has anybody else persued this direction?

Andy W.







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Date: Tue, 14 Jun 1994 18:57:57 -0700 (PDT)
From: Phil Brushaber <pbrush at netcom.com>
Subject: Bavarian vs. Munich Wyeast

I am brewing my sixth batch of Octoberfest this weekend. Still in search 
of duplicating that Munich-Malty character. Was on the "horns of a
dilema" about what yeast to use.... Wyeast Bavarian, Wyeast Munich, or
Brewtek East European.
	Ruled out the Brewtek European. It's one great yeast, but too
attenuative for this style. Finished too dry for a Munich-style.
	Started some Wyeast Bavarian from a slant on Monday night. Got 
restless with that and purchased some Wyeast Munich #2308. Don't know 
which to use. I've had problems with Bavarian and DMS. And yet I hear 
that Munich is very unstable, sometime very sulphury (although sometimes 
very malty) and sometimes is very un-attenuative.
	My wife, the food scientist, solved the problem short term.
"Bavarian is a good, reliable strain, Phil. Your problems with DMS have 
to due with poor sanitation after the boil. Good god, man, you stick you 
arm in the wort to place the racking tube! Use your new conterflow 
chiller, keep your hands out of the wort, and give the Bavarian a clean 
shot with good sanitation. Be scientific enought to only change ONE 
variable at a time. Change sanitation, not yeast!"
	Yoikes! With a wife like that what's a guy to do? (Stick with the 
Bavarian, and brew up a seperate gallon with the Munich.) Er... and keep 
my arms out of the wort.

	What have been the experiences of some of you other 
"fest-brewers" regarding Bavarian vs. Munich?

                                             pbrush at netcom.com


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Date: Tue, 14 Jun 1994 22:51:44 -0400 (EDT)
From: Allen Glass <aglass at andy.bgsu.edu>
Subject: Guerrilla Beer

Last night, I lost my homebrewing innocence.  For the first time radical
revolutionaries hiding amongst the bottle caps unleashed a surprise
terrorist attack.  In short, I had my first bottle bomb (ironically one of
a case of Mexican ale).  The beer had been gushing slightly, but this is
the first sign of potential wide-scale violence.  Now I find myself
dilemmaized -- shall I dump a case of beer (not my favorite, but I do risk
my wife's not inconsequential wrath), or do I let the suds sit in silence,
slowly sliding towards a super-expansive event?

To let be, or not to let be, that is the question.  How say ye, brewmeisters?

allen
aglass at andy.bgsu.edu

(Or should I quietly ship it someplace obscure via UPS and let the poor
delivery guys taste danger?)



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Date: Tue, 14 Jun 94 22:41 CDT
From: pgravel at mcs.com (Philip Gravel)
Subject: Priming Rate/Thermometer correction/Heat transfer

** Regarding bottle volume/priming rate:

I've filled both 12 oz. and 0.5 L bottles from that same primed batch and
noticed no significant difference in carbonation levels.

** Regarding thermometer correction:

Why not just buy a new thermometer?  Probably the best solution to
your problem.

** Regarding heat transfer:

>There are 3 types of heat transfer: conduction, convection, and 
>radiation.  

Where does evaporative cooling fit in?  I believe Jack's contention
was that by the time the hot sparge water reaches the mash, it has
cooled by evaporation of the liquid.
- -- 
Phil
_____________________________________________________________
Philip Gravel                                 pgravel at mcs.com

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Date: Tue, 14 Jun 94 23:22 CDT
From: arf at mcs.com (Jack Schmidling)
Subject: Copper and Objectives

 
 >From: "JAMES W. KEESLER" <74021.376 at CompuServe.COM>
  
 >I am contemplating using copper/brass fittings for my drain valve in my
 primary fermenter.  Does anyone have any experience with beer having
 prolonged exposure to copper/brass? 
 
 I have been mashing, lautering, boiling and fermenting in kettles with copper 
 and brass EASYMASHERS for several years and have never been accused of copper 
 or brass flavored beer.   I also sent samples of my beer to a testing lab to 
 be analyzed for lead and the results were negative.
 
 >From: npyle at n33.ecae.stortek.com
 
 >All emotion aside (like that's really possible!), I claim the real debate
 here is about making your point clearly.  Not only does Jack fail to mention
 water chemistry, he oftens implies it makes no difference, i.e. if it works
 for him, it should work for everyone, and this is just not true.....
 
 I claim it is the emotional issue that prevents people from reading and 
 understanding what I have written.   If you can find a quote wherein I said 
 "implied" that water chemestry makes no difference, I would like to see it 
 but that is a seperate subject.
 
 I wrote an article that described a simple all grain procedure that works 
 well enough to get an extract brewer hooked on all grain.  It is not my 
 responsibility nor would the editors allow me to explain the whys and 
 wherefores of every step of the way.
 
 Ligitimate criticim of the article should address how well I met MY objective 
 not how well I satisfied what the more advanced brewers may have wanted to 
 read.
 
 js
 

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Date: Wed Jun 15 09:06 EDT 1994
From: pje0r1t at Pentagon-EMH6.army.mil (pje0r1t)
Subject: Relocating to Dallas-Ft Worth

For anyone who can help, I've recently been notified of my
reassignment to the Dallas-Ft Worth area from Washington, D.C.
and am seeking any and all information concerning Brew Pubs,
Brewers Supply Stores, Brewing Clubs and Organizations etc...
that are available there.

Your reply's will be Greatly Appreciated.

"On the Road Again, but Stayin' Alive because I DON'T Drink and
Drive"

Thanks
Maj Twigg

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Date: Wed, 15 Jun 1994 08:34:20 -0500
From: jhinkens at facstaff.wisc.edu (Jay D. Hinkens)
Subject: Re: Propane Cookers

We have used a brand called Cookin' Cajun for years.  We bought it at Sam's
Wholesale Club.  It is in the 140K-170K BTU range, but I don't recall
exactly.  This burner has no rings to hold pots or anything -- just three
pieces of wrought iron much like those on old gas stoves.  Using this
burner, we get three or four brews out of a 20 lb propane tank.

Because out brew pot is so large and heavy (a converted SS half-barrel), we
support it on three cinder blocks and position the burner underneath with
small bricks.  We have also noticed that heating performance is greatly
improved when we wrap heavy duty aluminum foil around the lower portion of
the brew pot and the upper portion of the burner.  There seems to be a lot
of waste heat that escapes from under the brew pot.  The aluminum foil
helps direct that heat up the sides of the pot.

 -Jay D. Hinkens
jHinkens at facstaff.wisc.edu


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Date: 15 Jun 1994 09:48:00 -0400 (EDT)
From: DUBOVIK at hsdwl.utc.com
Subject: Heat Wave Brew Temps

Now with this heat wave upon us, I'm concerned that my string of "GREAT" 
batches will be broken. I'm a new comer to home brewing, with my 1'st
of 8 batches starting around October of '93. During that time, the
indoor temp has ranged around 65-75F. All my brewing/aging/bottling
has been done in that temp range. Now with the indoor temp approaching
85 degrees (to cheap for ac), I'm wondering if I should move my setup
to the musty basement, where it a somewhat constant (in the summer)
68-75 degrees. Should this be done for the entire process, or should
I start out upstairs to get the yeasties active, then move 
downstairs after a day or so. Or... am i ok in keeping the entire
setup upstairs, as long as the temp stays below 85 degrees??.
(I'm using a plastic pale/glass carboy fermenting setup, with
all grain ALE type brews). Any comments will be greatly appreciated.

                                                   TNX
                                               CookingInCt


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Date: Wed, 15 Jun 94 10:03:31 EDT
From: Steve Scampini <scampini at hp-and.an.hp.com>
Subject: Scortching

Thanks to all for the helpful info on Duvel.  My first attempt will be this
fall when it cools off around here.  

A question for the experts.  I use a cheap enamelware brewpot with a 
25 hole propane cooker.  It works fine except I get some black, crusty
stuff at the center which I take to be scortched malt.  I have stirred
the extract thoroughly, kept the flame at reasonable levels, etc..

I have been thinking of adding a thick metal plate under the pot to 
distribute the heat.  Will this work or are there other tricks out
there that will prevent this problem?  I think I can detect a slight
burnt flavor in my last ale, though I did use a dark specialty malt in
the recipe.  Thanks in advance.

Steve Scampini

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Date: Wed, 15 Jun 94 10:50:38 EDT
From: Gary S. Kuyat <gsk at sagan.bellcore.com>
Subject: Hops in Starters
Full-Name: Gary S. Kuyat

Ron Hart asks, "Why bother with hops when they're not needed to keep the yeast
happy?"  I just picked up a 50ml culture from Ron for brewing a lager, so let
me say that I trust his sanitation enough to use his culture directly, without
streaking out for single colonies.

Now, for most homebrewers (as Ron indicates) his procedures are not really
doable.  If any of your procedure involves pouring anything through a funnel
into the starter media, you really should use hops (or some other bacteriostat).
If you rinse with anything other than a STERILE solution (and boiled water
doesn't count, it must be AUTOCLAVED or pressure cooked for 15 minutes!) or if
your work area is breazy, or a kitchen, bathroom or ... You get the idea.

I would argue that unless there is some reason why you CANNOT use hops, use
them.  If you don't want the bitterness in the culture, then bake your hops
like p-lambic brewers do.  This destroys most of the bitterness and hop aroma,
while leaving the bacteria inhibiting characteristics intact.  There are many
steps where contaminmation can occur, and hops are a good insurance policy
agains mistakes.

BTW, did you ever tast Wyest starter culture pack stuff?  It is NASTY!  What
ever is in there probably isn't hops, but it's not just sugar water!  I'd bet
it's some kind of bacteria inhibiting agent.  Any comment from Wyeast?

- --
 -Gary Kuyat
  gsk at sagan.bellcore.com
  (908)699-8422

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End of HOMEBREW Digest #1451, 06/16/94