FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Rob Gardner, Digest Janitor


Contents:
  Moldy Grain/Collect thesis (S29033)
  BEER FESTIVAL LISTING? (Kip Damrow)
  peach-honey mead (Jim Doyle)
  Dry Malt or Liquid Malt (Jack_Kingsley_at_po.iri.la)
  One packet of dried yeast or two? (Stephen Hudson)
  Extract Brewing (BrewerBob)
  extract vs. grain (MATTD)
  First All-Grain beer! (Geoffrey Talvola)
  5L Mini Kegs ("David W. Magnuson")
  Saccharine (Pbr322)
  cleaning copper (Pierre Jelenc)
  Hangovers (Ian_Sutherland_at_AMSNYO01)
  Re: Wort cooling (Lou King)
  Tylenol ("pratte")
  Keg "crimes" #2 (Louis K. Bonham)
  Re:  Homebrewing hits the airwaves / rightous brewing (John Hartman)
  Filters (Jack Schmidling)
  Beer in Hong Kong (Laurence Libelo)
  Scorching, heatwave, "favorite ale yeast", gypsum, lengthy quotes, IDs (Nancy.Renner)
  phone numbers for Foxx Bevg/Grainger.. hot break racking cane.. ("McGaughey, Nial")
  Re: Cold Conditioning Altbier (Jim Busch)
  homebrew vs safeway bought beer (Steve Peters)
  Shaking kegs, hangovers,canning starters,O2 scrubbed?,mead yeasts,BrewerChiller (Nancy.Renner)
  Putting a hole in your ceramic-on-steel brew kettle (Curiouser and curiouser...)
  Re: Good Advice from Korzonas (Jeff Frane)
  aflatoxins / diacetyl (Andrew Patrick)
  Re: Mash and specialty grains (Dion Hollenbeck)


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----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: 20 Jun 1994 16:10:26 -0400 (EDT)
From: S29033%22681 at utrcgw.utc.com
Subject: Moldy Grain/Collect thesis

Jeff Michalski, MD writes:
>Al, no flame intended, but leave the medical stuff to health professionals
>and stick to your area of expertise.
I
a little information on moldy grain and have read similar information about
molds on corn that cause tumors in livestock.  I don't think Al was diagnosing
a patient or giving harmful advice.  Look at it this way, any disinformation in
this forum relating to health can be beneficial in that it solicits the correct
information from the health professionals - for free!  

I read Ilkka Sysils collected thesis and I will not go into detail on what I
agree with or disagree with - it would take too long and I am sure others can
be more eloquent with their responses.  I would just like to ask one question.
Was this a collected thesis from the former Soviet Union?

Lance Stronk, Sikorsky Aircraft, Stratford, CT.

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Date: Mon, 20 Jun 94 13:46:00 PDT
From: kdamrow at thomas.com (Kip Damrow)
Subject: BEER FESTIVAL LISTING?

Hello HBers,
Does anyone have, or know where to get a list of upcoming beer festivals
across the country??? Thanks.

Kip Damrow
Irvine, CA

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Date: Mon, 20 Jun 1994 13:57:52 -0700
From: Jim Doyle <jgdoyle at uci.edu>
Subject: peach-honey mead

Sorry if this is an inappropriate forum for this request, but...

can anybody tell me how to make a mead from peaches and honey? (is there a
"mead-digest?)


private e-mail or posting is ok.

thanks in advance

Jim Doyle
        	--
Jim Doyle
P.S. Purchasing Office
Ph. (714) 856-6047


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Date: Mon, 20 Jun 94 17:28:18 EST
From: Jack_Kingsley_at_po.iri.la at smtplink.infores.com
Subject: Dry Malt or Liquid Malt

     Hello!  A friend of mine recently picked up a kit from a local brewing 
     store.  This kit contained a large bag of dry powdered malt.  
     Typically we have been using a liquid form of the malt.  What are 
     peoples opionions (is one preferred, or what are the differences?)
     
     Thanks for any info.
     
     Jack Kingsley
     jack.kingsley at infores.com
     

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Date: Tue, 21 Jun 1994 08:30:21 EDT
From: mop3 at midas.HO.BOM.GOV.AU (Stephen Hudson)
Subject: One packet of dried yeast or two?

G'day all...

The other day I bought a new brewing kit which came with two Cooper's Real
Ale kits. In the spring issue of zymurgy they did a review of these kits
and the reviewers made a batch using two cans instead of one can and a kilo
of sugar that Cooper's instruction say. (yuk!) I've tasted beer from other
homebrewers using sugar and don't like it at all! Seeing I have two cans of
extract I was going to copy that brew to get rid of both kits at once.

The question is should I use just one packet of rehydrated yeast or can I,
or should I, use both packets?

And another question for Aussie readers, has anyone made two batches of
Cooper's kits using the packet yeast in one and making a starter from a
bottle of Cooper's Sparkling Ale or Pale Ale in the other? Any differance
in the two batches? I haven't made a starter from a bottle before, any
hints or tips?

For the information of overseas readers, Cooper's bottle condition their
Ales and Stouts, which Aussie homebrewers can make yeast starters from.

Cheers

Stephen

- --

Stephen Hudson
Finance & Supply Section                              phone: +61 3 669-4563
Bureau of Meteorology                                   fax: +61 3 669-4254
Melbourne Victoria AUSTRALIA                    e-mail: s.hudson at bom.gov.au

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Date: Mon, 20 Jun 94 19:59:13 EDT
From: BrewerBob at aol.com
Subject: Extract Brewing

This is to the person who stated that extract beer wasn't beer at all. I
think it was ILKKA or something like that...

You need to learn a lot more about brewing beer. The mega brewers such as
Miller (and I know it is questionable as to whether they make =beer= at all!)
make extract beer!

Sure, they start with the grain(s) and do a mash, but they end up with a high
gravity extract which is some cases is sent to other brewing locations that
don't mash at all. By taking S.G. readings on the extract, they can determine
how much water to add to make the EXACT same beer every time! Since there are
variations in the grain from batch to batch and year to year, it is the only
way they can insure a consistant product. Oh, the extract that they send to
other locations is also hopped, and hop oil/extract is also sent separately.
I know of at least one brewery (mega type) that has never seen a hop flower
in the plant!

One more note - In 1992 (I am almost sure it was that year), the AHA Best of
Show award went to an extract Pilsner that didn't even have any adjunct
grains in the recipe! It is generally accepted that all-grain brews are
better and win more prizes but that may be simply because the better brewers
make all-grain beer!

I make extract beer and it is very good beer. I'm happy with it, I know it
costs a bit more but I am willing to trade off the cost for the saving in
time. 

Chill out, Dude!

BrewerBob at aol.com


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Date: Mon, 20 Jun 1994 18:58:35 -0600 (MDT)
From: MATTD at UWYO.EDU
Subject: extract vs. grain

     All this arguing about extract seems pretty silly.  I brew with all grain
but I just taught a friend how to brew with extracts.  I had forgotten how easy
it was to do.  The beer came out quite good.  It is definitely harder to screw
up.  Yes, some don't turn out that well and it is more expensive, but for the
person who wants a good beer without all the hassle it is definitely the way
to go.

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Date: Mon, 20 Jun 94 22:02:15 -0400
From: Geoffrey Talvola <gtalvola at BBN.COM>
Subject: First All-Grain beer!


Hello Homebrew Digest; this is my first posting but I've been lurking
for a while...

Before this weekend I had three extract batches under my belt.  My
first two were Papazian's Vagabond Gingered Ale and Palace Bitter, and
I was feeling adventurous so for the third I did a 1/3 honey, 2/3
wheat/barley extract brew fermented with Chimay yeast and dry-hopped
with Cascades :-0 It actually turned out to be a very complex and
tasty, if unusual, brew.  So this last weekend I made my first venture
into all-grain...

I wanted to get by with minimal cost and new equipment purchases.  I
already owned 2 glass carboys, one 4-gallon aluminum brewpot, and a
plastic bottling bucket with spigot at the bottom.  So I bought the
following: another brewpot (5-gallon enamel-on-steel, 15 bucks), a
grain bag (10 bucks -- I know, that's too much to pay) and 25 feet of
copper tubing for a chiller (10 or 15 bucks from a hardware store, I
can't remember).

I infusion mashed on the stove in the enamel brewpot and stuck it in a
preheated oven to maintain mash temp.  After an hour I lautered in the
plastic bottling bucket.  I stuck a vegetable steamer in it to make a
false bottom, and then put the grain bag in on top of that.  I put in
a few inches of foundation water, then ladled the grains in along with
water to keep the water level above the grains, and then laid a small
plate on top of the grains.  I sparged with 180-degree water by
carefully pouring onto the plate, thus avoiding disturbing the grain
bed.  I recirculated one pitcher and then slowly drained into my two
brewpots, adding sparge water whenever the water level dropped almost
below the grain level.  Sparging took about .5 hours and went without
a hitch.

Then I started both brewpots boiling.  I divided the boiling hops
between the two brewpots equally.  After an hour, I added half the
aroma hops to brewpot number 1 and started chilling it.  When it was
done chilling, I added the rest of the aroma hops to brewpot 2 and
chilled it.  Then I splashed all the wort into my sanitized carboy,
trub, hop gunk and all, and pitched my starter.  I'll rack in a week.

My chilling technique was simple -- I filled the bottling bucket with
ice water, connected a plastic tube to the spigot on the bottom,
connected this tube to the copper coil which I immersed in the
brewpot, connected another plastic tube to the other end of the coil,
and let the hot water run out into a waiting trash can.  The bottling
bucket was up on a counter, so the water was fed through the coil by
gravity.  I'd refill the bottling bucket with water as needed, and
dump out the trash can of hot water when necessary.  The only problem
was that only about half of the coil was actually submerged into the
wort because I shaped it stupidly (I used vertically looping coils
which were too large, rather than compact coils parallel to the floor
which would have worked much better).  So it took longer to chill the
2 brewpots than I would have liked (about 1/2 hr for each brewpot).
But next time I'll fix that problem by reshaping the coils.

The recipe was Papazian's Monkey's Paw Brown Ale, and I used Wyeast
Irish Ale with a starter.  I stupidly forgot to measure OG so I have
no idea how much extraction I got but what the heck, it looked and
tasted good to me.  The whole process was easier than I thought, and
even with the slow chill and accounting for the extremely weak gas
burners on my stove, the whole process took only 6 hours (compared to
4 usually for my extract brews).  Much of this time was spent playing
cards.  Folks, all-grain is easy!  I can't wait to find out how good
it tastes!  I doubt I'll go back to extract.

By the way, thanks for all of the informative and encouraging posts
here on the Digest!  All the info I have gleaned from the digest made
my first mash go as smoothly as I could have ever hoped.


 - Geoff Talvola
  gtalvola at bbn.com


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Date: Mon, 20 Jun 1994 21:21:29 -0500 (CDT)
From: "David W. Magnuson" <dwmagnus at cs.twsu.edu>
Subject: 5L Mini Kegs

Hi Fellow Brewers,

Would someone please send an address or phone number where I can get the
5L Mini Kegs?  I followed the thread a couple of months ago, but I
misplaced my notes on vendors.  Private Email is fine to cut down on
bandwidth noise (like this).


Thanks in advance,

David W. Magnuson                            
DWMAGNUS at CS.TWSU.EDU                         
                                 
***********************************************************************


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Date: Mon, 20 Jun 94 23:19:32 EDT
From: Pbr322 at aol.com
Subject: Saccharine

I recently purchased Dave Line's "Brewing Beers Like Those You Buy."  A lot
of the recipes include saccharine tablets.  I know that this is supposed to
supply the residual sweetness associated with some commercial beers that we
seem to lose with our "more complete" homebrew fermentation.  However, I am
not a fan of saccharine by any stretch of the imagination in any incarnation,
and really don't want to add it to my beer.  Has anyone tried these recipes??
 Any comments on the saccharine??  Is there an alternative method (like
adding lactose, or something...) that I could substitute for the saccharine??
 

Some of the recipes look really interesting, and I would like to try them,
I'm just wary of the saccharine thing.  Any comments, esp alternatives would
be appreciated.  Thanks in advance. 

Cheers


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Date: Mon, 20 Jun 94 10:53:31 EDT
From: Pierre Jelenc <pcj1 at columbia.edu>
Subject: cleaning copper

In HBD #1454, mole at netcom.com (Aaron Birenboim) asks

>I have some copper tubing (chiller) which needs serious cleaning.  It has
>a scale, which is likely to be a combination of mineral deposits and
>oxides? of copper (the green stuff).  How should I remove it? Vinegar,
>TSP, Lye, stronger acid (i have pickel, and could most likely get some
>nitric). 

Do NOT use nitric acid, it would eat your copper in short order. A brief
immersion in a non-oxidizing acid (dilute HCl for instance) is OK; citric
acid may be better if the scale is a calcium salt deposit. 

Lye and strongly basic cleaners would work for organic grunge, but are 
not likely to be of much use on a mineral deposit.

I would rather buy fresh tubing (and clean the oil inside with a strong
detergent such as Alconox). 

Pierre

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Date: Tue, 21 Jun 94 08:00:55 EST
From: Ian_Sutherland_at_AMSNYO01 at mail.amsinc.com
Subject: Hangovers


Ronald Narvaez made me think of my past encounters with various types of beer.
I am interested in collecting your experiences and solutions in dealing with
hangovers to see if there is a common thread. So please send private e-mail and
maybe later I can summarize on the HBD.
     Over the years I have noticed that Real Ale does not give me a hangover. I
can drink 3 pints of the pasteurized Bass here in New York and get a pounding
headache before I get home even with drinking water. However, a trip to England
and 8 pints of Marstons Pedigree provide no such effect even with only a few
hours sleep and no water. And I have never felt any ill effects from my own
homebrew!
     Back in the early 70s (college days) hangovers were quite common, but then
those were the days when all the big brewers (in England) were switching to
their cheap to keep pasteurized kegged "ale". I figure there are alot of
drinkers out there who can thank CAMRA for making their mornings brighter!
     Anyway, I digress, please send me your experiences and let me see what the
common factors are.
                    Ian

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Date: Tue, 21 Jun 94 08:16:59 EDT
From: Lou King <lking at hns.com>
Subject: Re: Wort cooling 

>>>>> On Sat, 18 Jun 94 12:58:09 CDT, Phil Miller said: 

Phil> What methods do you in homebrew-land use to cool your wort? I was
Phil> thinking of using ice in a sink and placing the boiling pot in the ice
Phil> for 15 or so minutes. Any suggestions? Private email is most welcome.

The people in "homebrew-land" will argue for days about two types of chillers:
immersion and counter-flow.

I use an immersion chiller.  It is about 25-30' of copper tubing through which
cold tap water is run.  The tubing is in a spiral which fits in your kettle.
The chiller is immersed in the wort to cool it.  This is easy for me because I
put the chiller into the boil about 10 minutes before the end to sterilize it.

Others use what's known as a counter-flow chiller.  This is a copper tube
which is inside a hose.  The hot wort flows through the copper while cold
water is run outside the copper through the hose in the opposite direction.  I
have no experience with that, but I'm told that it cools the wort more quickly
than the immersion chiller.

My favorite mail order shop The Malt Shop (800-235-0026) has an immersion
chiller for $31.95.  I picked one up locally for around $35.

Good luck with the chiller.

BTW, you have an interesting name.  There's usually plenty of talk on this
group about the best malt mill (grinder) to buy.  A guy named Dan Listerman
makes one named the "Phil Mill" (named after his son).



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Date:          Tue, 21 Jun 1994 08:29:40 EST
From: "pratte" <PRATTE at GG.csc.peachnet.edu>
Subject:       Tylenol

In yesterday's HBD, Ronald Narvaez mentions avoiding a hangover by 
taking vitamin B and TYLENOL (a la Papazian).  As I pointed out to 
Charlie about 6 months ago, he needs to correct this advice in his 
book.  As reported in several medical journals in the last year, it 
is a BIG NO NO to mix alcohol and Tylenol (more appropriately, 
acetiminophen).  Apparently, the mixture is lethal to your liver and 
can lead to cirrhosis with prolonged use.  I should point out that 
similar studies with other pain killers such as ibuprofen have not 
been done, which is the reason you have not seen warning labels on 
Tylenol (i.e. Tylenol sued the government, stating that until it does 
studies on the others, it can't force them to label their product).  
If anyone wants the source of this information, they can either check 
their newspapers from last August or I'll try to dredge up my 
sources, if necessary.

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Date: Tue, 21 Jun 1994 07:55:25
From: lkbonham at beerlaw.win.net (Louis K. Bonham)
Subject: Keg "crimes" #2


Jeff Frane responds to my inquiry regarding the "crime" of
not returning an empty keg with the following thoughts. 
Pardon me for using bandwidth to respond, but I seem to
have hit a vein of interest among many HBD readers: 

>Well I am not (thank goodness) an attorney, but I think there are two
>issues.  One is simply moral (I will refrain from lawyer cracks): the
>kegs are *clearly* the property of the person/company who paid for them
>by buying them either from the manufacturer another brewery
 . . . . 
>I have no doubt that a lawyer could make a good case for something else
>- -- that's what lawyers are for, apparently.  But *anyone* with the
>ability to differentiate between right and wrong can see who really owns
>the keg.

Whoa!  You're confusing apples and oranges.  While
many things that are immoral are also illegal (and vice
versa), morality and the law are *not* always the same
(i.e., what one believes is "wrong" isn't automatically
illegal any more than what one believes is right is
automatically legal).  Whether law and morality *should* be
the same is a matter of personal belief that probably
should't be debated in the HBD; I'm only telling you that as
a practical matter, one's sense of right and wrong is not
an incorruptable barometer of what's legal and what's
illegal. 

My question (please refer to my original message) was if
anyone had a citation to a statute or regulation that
supports the assertion that the brewery unconditionally and
at all time owns the keg, or otherwise criminalizes the
possession of an empty. 

As to the assertion that kegs are "*clearly* the property"
of the brewery, the issue is whether title passes to the
consumer upon payment of the deposit.  I can assure you that
while I cannot claim to be certain of the correct answer to
this question (that's why I posted my inquiry in the first
place), I can tell you that from a legal standpoint the
accuracy of a brewery's claim of unconditional ownership of a
keg at all times is hardly "clear."

>Secondly, your "purchaser" is purchasing the *beer*, not the keg.  It's
>a very clear contract; when you buy the beer, you pay a deposit on the
>keg.  

It is hardly a "very clear contract" -- a consumer
purchase of a keg of beer is almost always an oral
contract accompanied by the payment for the beer and a
deposit for the keg, with *no* documentation of what the
deposit represents. This brings us to the real question:
what (from a legal standpoint) is a deposit?  Usually, a
deposit is just liquidated damages in the event of a breach
of the implicit promise by the consumer to return the empty
keg; i.e., if you don't return the keg, the seller gets to
keep the deposit in lieu of having to sue for breach of
contract. (The same rule holds for returnable bottles.) As a
party to a liquidated damages contract is perfectly free to
breach the contract (such freedom is one purpose of a
liquidated damages clause), the brewer is conceding the
potential loss of the keg in return for receipt of the
deposit by the distributor.  In any event, *title passes to
the keg* upon sale if my analysis that deposit=liquidated
damages is correct, and I have seen nothing to indicate
that it is not. 

When a consumer purchases a container of milk, beer, or what
have you, it is implicit that he also purchases the
container it comes in.  If the seller is only "loaning" or
"renting" the container, there's gonna have to be something
in the sales contract to document this fact.  (The mere fact
that the brewer doesn't intend to allow the consumer to
forfeit his deposit won't cut it -- there's got to be some
manifestation in the consumer/retailer contract.)  To
phrase it differently, why is a keg any different from a
returnable bottle?  Conceptually and legally, they are the
same, unless there is something in the consumer's contract
to differentiate them.  Again, I see nothing that does so.

If breweries don't want their kegs to disappear, they can
just increase the amount of the deposit or they can structure
their retail sales "contract" to expressly provide that title
to the keg does *not* pass to the consumer.  The fact that
they do not do so does not, however, magically translate into
some abrogation of the apparent authority of the retailer to
pass title to the keg, nor does it transform what appears to
be a simple breach of contract into a criminal offense.

Interesting issue, no?



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Date: Tue, 21 Jun 1994 07:58:00 -0500 (CDT)
From: John Hartman <jhartman at VNET.IBM.COM>
Subject: Re:  Homebrewing hits the airwaves / rightous brewing

Excerpts from mail: 21-Jun-94 Homebrew Digest #1455 (June.. Request No
Articles at hpfc (45733)

> On another note, this weekend I turned on the TV and was surprised as heck
> to see my first (gasp) ** infomercial ** for a homebrewing kit!!
> Yes, you thought these things were confined to exercise machines and
> kitchen gadgets, but NOO.......

> [...]

> Has anyone else seen this, or is it just here in the twin cities??


It was shown here in Rochester, MN also (yeah, only 70 miles away).  I
thought it was kind of a joke, but maybe that was because of the "host"
(Way too corny for my taste).  But it was good for a laugh after a
mediocre Saturday Night Live.  ;-)

Actually, it does look like a decent startup kit, although a tad pricey,
I thought, for only a 3-4 gallon plastic pail (but you get those great
labels ;-).

 -jh

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Date: Tue, 21 Jun 94 08:22 CDT
From: arf at mcs.com (Jack Schmidling)
Subject: Filters

 
 One aspect of filters has been alluded to in this discussion but I would like 
 to spell it out clearly.
 
 After much expense, trial, error and frustration, it has become clear that 
 all microns are not equal.
 
 When experts with professional equipment advise on the characteristics of 
 filters and recommend which one to use for what in brewing, this can lead to 
 a great deal of wheel spinning trying to replicate the results.
 
 It is a fact that yeast and most bacteria can not pass through a one micron 
 filter.  The problem is that NONE of the string wound filters that are easily 
 available to hombrewers filter at anything like the level they quote.  My 
 suggestion, to those who want to use them, is to find a .5 micron and don't 
 expect any great results.
 
 The .5 micron pleated filter from the Filter Store does a much better job but 
 yeast and bacteria are not hard to find with a microscope in beer filtered 
 with it.
 
 So again my advice is, unless you can afford the real thing, this one can be 
 used with fair results and no fear of filtering out flavor components.
 
 It might be useful if George Fix would post the exact part numbers and 
 ordering information on the units he uses.  His most recent comments put 
 everything into perspective but left me drooling.  I would ask him privately 
 but I doubt that I am the only one wanting this info.
 
 js
 

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Date: Tue, 21 Jun 1994 10:04:22 -0400 (EDT)
From: Laurence Libelo <lauren at back.vims.edu>
Subject: Beer in Hong Kong


Does anyone know of a decent beer brewed in Hong Kong or southern China? 
I will be there this summer and would like to sample the local brews.

Thanks

Lauren




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Date: Tue, 21 Jun 94 10:18:20 EDT
From: Nancy.Renner at um.cc.umich.edu
Subject: Scorching, heatwave, "favorite ale yeast", gypsum, lengthy quotes, IDs

 
 From *Jeff* Renner 
 
Some old stuff I didn't post last week: 
 
Steve Scampini is going to try that extract Duvel but thinks he may have a 
scorching problem.  Steve, the metal plate sounds good, but I haven't got 
any experience with that.  What I have observed as a (not rare) problem (and 
one that had when I first brewed, with black flakes in the wort) is 
scorching caused by adding the extract to a hot bottomed kettle.  After you 
bring the water to a boil, turn the heat off and wait until all boiling 
ceases.  Then add the extract, stirring as you go.  After it is thoroughly 
mixed, bring it back to a boil.  I use an electric stove (ugh!), probably a 
hotter spot source, and never had scorching with my enameled kettle during 
all the years I used it. 
- ------ 
CookingInCt (DUBOVIK at hsdwl.utc.com) has heatwave problems.  I think that 
even a musty smelling basement for your whole process is better than the hot 
upstairs.  Can you manage a dehumidifier? Some great beers have come out of 
musty cellars.  Just practice good sanitation. 
- -------- 
Al K. praises the contributions of different yeasts and doesn't like recipes 
that call for "your favorite ale yeast."  I agree that the different yeasts 
available make as big a difference in the quality and authenticity of our 
beers as anything else.  But I think we have to cut these books some slack 
as historical sources.  It wasn't too long ago that you could buy any yeast 
you liked, as long as it was Red Star banana yeast, now thankfully replaced. 
 I learned how to brew all grain from Dave Line's BBB and still have a soft 
place for it in my heart.  It's a shame he died before the hobby really got 
going here.  But Charlie, I think it's time for a new edition! 
- -------- 
Jeremy Ballard Bergsman responds to Terry Terfinko's water: 
>Your water is nice and soft so it is easy to adjust for brewing.  Add about 
> .5 g/gal of NaCl and 1 g/gal of CaCl2 unless making a beer that wants soft 
>water (e.g. pilsener).  Add .5 g/gal MgSO4 (Epsom salts) for pale ales. 
>Throw away the gypsum. 
 
Let me add another opinion.  I think Ca(+2) is important in any mash, 
including Pilsners, unless you want to do an *long* rest to drop the pH, a 
method devised out of necessity in Pilsen to cope with their very soft 
water. Fine pilsners can be and are made with harder water.  CaCl2 is a good 
source of Ca(+2) at 50 - 100 ppm (Miller) to quickly drop the mash pH for 
lagers.  I like to use gypsum (CaSO4) as the calcium source for pale ales 
because the sulfate adds to that dry hoppy bitterness.  Using epsom salts 
for the SO4 will supply too much Mg when providing enough SO4.  Foster (Pale 
Ale) suggests these targets: 
     Calcium     100-200 ppm 
     Magnesium    10-30 
     Sodium       10-20 
     Bicarbonate    <50 
     Sulfate     300-500 
     Chloride     20-40 
 
One g/gal gypsum will provide 60ppm Ca and 150 ppm SO4. 
One g/gal Epsom salts =       26ppm Mg and 100 ppm SO4 
One g/gal table salt =       100ppm Na and 150 ppm Cl 
 
You can use these plus your analysis to figure your needs.  I wouldn't throw 
away the gypsum. 
- --------------------- 
A question on quoting.  A lot of contributors quote an entire (or nearly 
entire) article to which they refer.  Unless you want to document that 
so-and-so actually said *exactly* something, wouldn't a summary serve to 
remind us of the article and save bandspace?  Sometimes the quotes are far 
longer than the answers. 
- ------ 
A related suggestion.  Some addresses give no hint as to identity.  I'd 
appreciate knowing someone's name, and could remember them better from time 
to time, if they signed their name rather than remaining an anonymous series 
of numbers and/or letters.  It would make the digest more personal. 
 
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor 

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Date: Mon, 20 Jun 94 12:11:00 PDT
From: "McGaughey, Nial" <nmcgaugh at hq.walldata.com>
Subject: phone numbers for Foxx Bevg/Grainger.. hot break racking cane..


Hi all..

I've seen several references to Foxx Beverage corp & Grainger supply..
1-800-555-1212 doesn't have numbers for these guys... so the question is:
would someone make me a hoppy person and E-mail these numbers for me, I want 
a catalog from them!!..

does anyone use a racking cane for racking finished wort from hot break?
what do you use? I have seen the Zymurgy ideas for one, but want other 
ideas..

I thought the ZooBrew(TM) story was hilarious.. reminded me of some of the 
better posts on alt.tasteless, the place to learn about mercaptan and its 
lovely pungency..

One last thing: to all the people who contribute technical information, and 
personal experiences to this digest: I say thank you, and a tip of the pint 
glass.Your efforts are not wasted. You all have saved me many years of 
experimentation and failures, and allowed me to brew the best beer I can 
with the equipment I have.

Cheers,
Nial McGaughey
Wall Data Product Development

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Date: Tue, 21 Jun 1994 11:10:33 -0400 (EDT)
From: Jim Busch <busch at daacdev1.stx.com>
Subject: Re: Cold Conditioning Altbier

> Dan Listermann wrote about a UK malting

Dan, thanks for the informative post, it sure beats those nasty flame
wars we have around here when the temp gets too hot!!

Jeff writes:
> Subject: Re: altbier yeast
> 
I wrote:
> > no longer has a filter.  So, I ask, do any of these "Alt" yeasts sold
> > by the yeast suppliers flocc?  If they do, I would be suspect of the
> > "authenticity" at least in terms of what is used Dusseldorf.
> > 
> Question is, what did the alt brewers do before filtration systems came
> along?  Is this perhaps a case of "it won't flocculate -- unless you
> cold-condition for a lengthy period"?  Which was, I thought, part of the
> idea.

Of course its part of the idea!  Alt: fermented "warm", around 60F, then
cold conditioned (lagered) for 2-4 weeks prior to filtration.  I did this,
the German micro did this, and the yeast did not budge (two years in a
row for the micro).  And at $100+ a dry cotton ball from Weihenstephan, 
the yeast source was well known.  

I think the comparison with age old brewing and today is limited in 
the Alt discussion.  It is entirely possible that Alts served in 1850 
were as cloudy as a too hot sparge, or the strain(s) could have been
radically different from todays. 

Jeff, any info on the source of the "Alt" strain sold by Wyeast??
(I have private email that this strain floccs quite well).

Good brewing,

Jim Busch


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Date: Tue, 21 Jun 1994 08:48:16 -0700
From: Steve Peters <stevep at pcx.ncd.com>
Subject: homebrew vs safeway bought beer

Ya know I was sitting here reading a digest message from Ronald Narvaez about
feeling great drinking homebrew and then his proceedure that avoided a hangover
the next day and thought of last night at home...

The girlfriend sent me out to get a couple of cold beers to go with dinner.
 She doesn't like my current batch of homebrew.  Not only is it room-tempature
(gosh, no!) but dryhopped with 2 oz of Mt Hood it has a citrus-y flavor that
she dislikes.  Well, we drank that mixed six-pack I brought back from Safeway.
 The Anchor Steam was skunked so bad it tasted like Miller, the Portland
Brewing Honey beer was satisfying, but the Bridgeport was kinda on the funky
side, too.

Then a few hours later I drank about 4 oz of homebrew while watching TV and was
struck, as I have been so many times before, by how much better homebrew makes
me feel than commercial beer.  Commercial beer makes me drunk.  Homebrew makes
me happy (and sometimes drunk).  Could it be the extra Vitamin B?  I've tried
popping V-B while drinking other beer and I don't get the same effect.  What's
in Homebrew that makes it different?

- -- 
Steve Peters
Sustaining Engineering and Support
Network Computing Devices

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Date: Tue, 21 Jun 94 11:45:48 EDT
From: Nancy.Renner at um.cc.umich.edu
Subject: Shaking kegs, hangovers,canning starters,O2 scrubbed?,mead yeasts,BrewerChiller

 From *Jeff* Renner 
 
Further thoughts on my problem with oxidized lagers on tap.  I'd never had 
this problem until I shook the kegs to force carbonate.  The problem showed 
up after about two months on tap.  Here's the strange thing.  I immediately 
counter pressure filled several bottles of each for competition, and they 
showed little or no oxidation (one judge commented out of four for the two 
beers).  They still show no problem, two months later, even though the 
kegged beer is undrinkable in one case and only barely in the other.  I 
carefully (I thought) purged the kegs before filling, as I have for years.  
The only difference is the shaking.  I even checked my CO2 supplier to see 
if I got contaminated gas.  They assured me there was no way.  So Jeff 
Benjamin, who plans to shake his kegs "the way a madman shakes a dead 
geranium," I suggest caution.  I think something may "loosen" latent HSA 
that otherwise doesn't cause a problem.  I'd welcome other input. 
 
As for your carbonation questions, Jeff, I have heard for years that 
"natural" carbonation in beer and champagne produces finer, longer lasting 
bubbles.  I have also seen this convincingly refuted.  I have never seen any 
difference.  I believe bubble size depends on things like proteins, surface 
tension, etc.  Dissolved CO2 is dissolved CO2, regardless of its source or 
how quickly or slowly it went into solution.  A low carbonation will produce 
a creamy beer.  I have gotten full carbonation in fifteen minutes of 
vigorous shaking for cold beer at high pressure (maybe 30 psi).  But see 
above.  I'm going back to slow carbonation. 
 
 
Happy Birthday, Ronald Narvaez, I'm glad you avoided a hangover.  Foolishly 
not leaving medical opinions to professionals, I'm convinced that while the 
vitamins and Tylenol can't hurt, it's the big glass of water that makes the 
difference.  Alcohol dehydrates big time, and that's a big part of a 
hangover.  Drink a glass of beer, pee a glass and a half.  Two glasses with 
a strong beer.  I try to make it a practice to drink at least as much water 
as beer.  At club meetings, where we are sampling many beers, we keep a 
pitcher of water to rinse our glasses between beers.  I always swallow the 
rinse.  Seems to help, and also keeps me from drinking maybe quite so much 
beer. 
- ------------ 
Jeff Sargent, I think your starter wort and children are safe.  I certainly 
have always heard that the pH is low enough to eliminate botulism, etc.  A 
pressure cooker is certain, but unnecessary from my experience. 
- ------------ 
zoz at cs.adelaide.edu.au is coming to the states and is concerned that if he 
brews before he leaves, it will be too late to bottle when he returns, so 
what should he do with his ingredients.  First, it seems to me that unless 
you are gone months and months (you didn't say) or you have bad storage 
conditions, you beer would probably be fine sitting in a full secondary.  It 
might even improve.  I've often not gotten around to bottling (or kegging) 
ales for two months or more.  It could be free aging time.  Otherwise, hop 
pellets will be fine well wrapped in the freezer, and the fridge should help 
the malt extracts. 
- ------------ 
Norm Pyle says: 
<during fermentation, oxidation is not an issue because of the CO2 <action, 
which pushes out oxygen. 
 
Norm, I think that the reason it isn't a problem because of the yeast, which 
will scavenge the O2.  Unless O2 is supersaturated, and is nucleates on the 
CO2 bubbles, its not going to be affected by the CO2.  I think it's been 
stated here before that solubility doesn't work that way - one solute is 
independent of the others, disregarding reactions, pH changes, etc. 
- --------------- 
Rob Skinner, YeastLab has sweet and dry liquid mead yeasts. 
- --------------- 
Bill Sutton, thanks for the enjoyable plans for The BrewerChiller! 
 
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor

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Date: Tue, 21 Jun 1994 08:50:52 -0700
From: ruderman at esca.com (Curiouser and curiouser...)
Subject: Putting a hole in your ceramic-on-steel brew kettle

I saw the article in the current edition of "Brewing Techniques" describing the
Easy Masher device.  In the article, the author says that he installed his
first device in a enameled brewing kettle (I assume that is the same as a 
ceramic-on-steel type of kettle).  My question is what's the right way to put a
hole into one of these kettles so as not to chip/crack the ceramic coating?  Is
this something that can be done by a novice?

Thanks.

Robert Ruderman
ESCA Corporation
Seattle, WA.

Reply: ruderman at esca.com

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Date: Tue, 21 Jun 1994 09:08:41 -0700 (PDT)
From: Jeff Frane <gummitch at teleport.com>
Subject: Re: Good Advice from Korzonas

Al Korzonas (who's gone to Denver) wrote:

> By the way, Ilkka, if you're thinking of having an argument about this on
> the digest:
> 
> 1. don't -- don't clutter the digest -- write to me directly, and
> 
By the way, Al, take your own advice!  Was it really necessary to quote
Ilkka at length in order to refute him?  Couldn't you simply have
ignored him or written him directly?  It's good advice, really, but
what's sauce for the goose...

- --Jeff



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Date: Tue, 21 Jun 1994 11:15:14 -0500 (CDT)
From: Andrew Patrick <andnator at mcs.com>
Subject: aflatoxins / diacetyl

Seeing as I was the one that started this whole thread, I felt obligated
to reply...

>From: "Glenace L. Melton" <71242.2275 at CompuServe.COM> writes :

>Now that the correct spelling has been established, can anyone tell me how
>common aflatoxins are in mouldy barley, wheat, and oats? How stable are
>they under heating conditions? In particular, does roasting the malt made
>with *some* mouldy grains destroy the aflatoxins? In my experience malt
>that smells a little bit mouldy will smell OK after drying and roasting to
>a medium brown or more. If there is still some aflatoxin will it be
>destroyed in a good, long boil? My encyclopedia and Merck's Manual are
>silent on this issue.

My original message about aflatoxins was mainly a precaution because I
felt that moldy barley MAY contain aflatoxin producing aspergillus species.
This still holds true.  Later in the course at Siebel we had a guest speaker
from a malting company (the name escapes me at the moment) that elaborated
further on mycotoxins.

Mycotoxins are generally the same chemical compound that has several
variations, one of these is aflatoxin.  All mycotoxins are produced by molds
or fungi.

Aflatoxin is mostly found on corn, wheat, peanuts, and (I don't have my
notes here) if I remember correctly, other nuts like pistachios.

The main concern at this point is vomitoxin (sounds wonderful huh?) which
is produced by a fugus called Fusaria(sp?)  Vomitoxin seems to affect swine
and cattle by giving them one hell of a bellyache and causeing them to
vomit (hence the name)  There is a chemical name for vomitoxin, abbreviated
"DON" but again I don't have my notes handy.  Anyway, Fusaria, love to grow
in cool moist conditions on barley and wheat... remember last summer?  The
perfect conditions occured with the floods of the Dakotas Red River Valley
where the majority of malting barley is grown.  The whole crop was affected.
Now before you get upset about this, vomitoxin has not been shown to affect
humans, and in fact the USDA has not issued a regulatory limit on it.
Additionally, the barley that comes from the red river valley is mostly six
row.  Most homebrewers I know prefer two-row.  The two-row crop is/was grown
much farther west and was not affected.
  The only affect that brewers using this grain could expect is a possible
gushing problem from the finished beer.  In fact I opened a Burghoff the other
day that tasted fine, but gushed a bit.

To answer the question posted above about destrying the aflatoxins, no, it
will not be destroyed.  It was found that the level of mycotoxins was
decreased with the initial steeping of the grain before malting.  Thus, it
is probable that mycotoxins are soluable in water.  When the barley started
to germinate, the mycotoxin level started to increase, but never reached the
original level of the raw barley.  This was caused by the regrowth of the
fungus/mold responsible for the mycotoxin production.  Mycotoxins will survive
the mashing/brewing process and will be retained in the finished product.

If I may add some speculation with no actual testing of fact here, it may be
possible to reduce the amount of mycotoxins in the finished product simply by
rinsing the malt prior to use.  This wouldn't be efficient for large scale
breweries, but as homebrewers, it may be a good precaution.

Bottom line?
Better to not use ANY moldy product.
The mycotoxin that is on the rampage in last years barley crop is not shown to
harm people.  Vomitoxin.  (Unless you feed your grist to your pigs!)
Mainly the 6-row crop is affected. (I won't say "only 6-row" 'cause I don't
                                    know for sure if all 2-row is clean)
A washing of the malt before mashing may help reduce the mycotoxin.

***********
Al Writes back in HBD1451 :

>You have to be careful with that class, Rich.  You would not be the first
>person I know to come out of it with "Chicken Little Syndrome" (the sky
>is falling!).  One person I know who took that class now smells diacetyl
>in every beer.

In a microbiology class the first thing they show you is just how prevalent
microorganisms are.  The first experiment we did was to test surfaces of
various items to see what would grow.  One person tested a half of a dollar
bill and managed to grow two different molds and three different bacteria.
Another, and this is the scary one, tested the surface of a freshly cleaned
bar glass.  He grew a couple of wild yeasts, and four bacteria!

I think the emphasis that Siebel places on diacetyl may be with good reason.
Most of the students are from major breweries (AB, Miller, Coors) which
produce mainley lagers.  They definitely don't want diacetyl in their beer.
but mainly, they stress, that diacetyl in large amounts, may be coming from
a bacteria infection or resperatory defecient yeast.  Neither of which you
want taking over your brewhouse.

I agree though, its tough to walk out of there and not look at everything as
a potential problem.

=> Rich larsen

My E-mail is busted!  I think Speedway is belly up!
Thank you Andrew Patrick for allowing me use of your account!
I can be reached though andnator at mcs.com or better to call
HomeBrew University BBS at (708) 705-7263

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Date: Tue, 21 Jun 94 09:22:27 PDT
From: hollen at megatek.com (Dion Hollenbeck)
Subject: Re: Mash and specialty grains

>>>>> "John" == Montgomery John <Montgomery_John at lanmail.ncsc.navy.mil> writes:

John> What is the collective wisdom on specialty grains and mashing?
John> Is there any point in adding these during the mash or should
John> they be held out for steeping during the pre-boil of the wort? 

There is at least one reason to mash these, but it is a special
combination.  When using darkly roasted grains such as chocolate and
black patent malts, they lower the pH considerably.  Here in San
Diego, we have very high pH water, so the combination of the dark
grains in the mash lowers the pH just perfectly.

Most responses I have heard on this discussion say that you can do
either mash or steep, but if you have low pH water and mash dark
grains, you could be lowering your pH too low.

Dion Hollenbeck (619)675-4000x2814     Email: hollen at megatek.com
Staff Software Engineer     Megatek Corporation, San Diego, California

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End of HOMEBREW Digest #1456, 06/22/94