HOMEBREW Digest #1456 Wed 22 June 1994

Digest #1455 Digest #1457

		Rob Gardner, Digest Janitor

  Moldy Grain/Collect thesis (S29033)
  peach-honey mead (Jim Doyle)
  Dry Malt or Liquid Malt (Jack_Kingsley_at_po.iri.la)
  One packet of dried yeast or two? (Stephen Hudson)
  Extract Brewing (BrewerBob)
  extract vs. grain (MATTD)
  First All-Grain beer! (Geoffrey Talvola)
  5L Mini Kegs ("David W. Magnuson")
  Saccharine (Pbr322)
  cleaning copper (Pierre Jelenc)
  Hangovers (Ian_Sutherland_at_AMSNYO01)
  Re: Wort cooling (Lou King)
  Tylenol ("pratte")
  Keg "crimes" #2 (Louis K. Bonham)
  Re:  Homebrewing hits the airwaves / rightous brewing (John Hartman)
  Filters (Jack Schmidling)
  Beer in Hong Kong (Laurence Libelo)
  Scorching, heatwave, "favorite ale yeast", gypsum, lengthy quotes, IDs (Nancy.Renner)
  phone numbers for Foxx Bevg/Grainger.. hot break racking cane.. ("McGaughey, Nial")
  Re: Cold Conditioning Altbier (Jim Busch)
  homebrew vs safeway bought beer (Steve Peters)
  Shaking kegs, hangovers,canning starters,O2 scrubbed?,mead yeasts,BrewerChiller (Nancy.Renner)
  Putting a hole in your ceramic-on-steel brew kettle (Curiouser and curiouser...)
  Re: Good Advice from Korzonas (Jeff Frane)
  aflatoxins / diacetyl (Andrew Patrick)
  Re: Mash and specialty grains (Dion Hollenbeck)

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---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 20 Jun 1994 16:10:26 -0400 (EDT) From: S29033%22681 at utrcgw.utc.com Subject: Moldy Grain/Collect thesis Jeff Michalski, MD writes: >Al, no flame intended, but leave the medical stuff to health professionals >and stick to your area of expertise. I a little information on moldy grain and have read similar information about molds on corn that cause tumors in livestock. I don't think Al was diagnosing a patient or giving harmful advice. Look at it this way, any disinformation in this forum relating to health can be beneficial in that it solicits the correct information from the health professionals - for free! I read Ilkka Sysils collected thesis and I will not go into detail on what I agree with or disagree with - it would take too long and I am sure others can be more eloquent with their responses. I would just like to ask one question. Was this a collected thesis from the former Soviet Union? Lance Stronk, Sikorsky Aircraft, Stratford, CT. Return to table of contents
Date: Mon, 20 Jun 94 13:46:00 PDT From: kdamrow at thomas.com (Kip Damrow) Subject: BEER FESTIVAL LISTING? Hello HBers, Does anyone have, or know where to get a list of upcoming beer festivals across the country??? Thanks. Kip Damrow Irvine, CA Return to table of contents
Date: Mon, 20 Jun 1994 13:57:52 -0700 From: Jim Doyle <jgdoyle at uci.edu> Subject: peach-honey mead Sorry if this is an inappropriate forum for this request, but... can anybody tell me how to make a mead from peaches and honey? (is there a "mead-digest?) private e-mail or posting is ok. thanks in advance Jim Doyle -- Jim Doyle P.S. Purchasing Office Ph. (714) 856-6047 Return to table of contents
Date: Mon, 20 Jun 94 17:28:18 EST From: Jack_Kingsley_at_po.iri.la at smtplink.infores.com Subject: Dry Malt or Liquid Malt Hello! A friend of mine recently picked up a kit from a local brewing store. This kit contained a large bag of dry powdered malt. Typically we have been using a liquid form of the malt. What are peoples opionions (is one preferred, or what are the differences?) Thanks for any info. Jack Kingsley jack.kingsley at infores.com Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 21 Jun 1994 08:30:21 EDT From: mop3 at midas.HO.BOM.GOV.AU (Stephen Hudson) Subject: One packet of dried yeast or two? G'day all... The other day I bought a new brewing kit which came with two Cooper's Real Ale kits. In the spring issue of zymurgy they did a review of these kits and the reviewers made a batch using two cans instead of one can and a kilo of sugar that Cooper's instruction say. (yuk!) I've tasted beer from other homebrewers using sugar and don't like it at all! Seeing I have two cans of extract I was going to copy that brew to get rid of both kits at once. The question is should I use just one packet of rehydrated yeast or can I, or should I, use both packets? And another question for Aussie readers, has anyone made two batches of Cooper's kits using the packet yeast in one and making a starter from a bottle of Cooper's Sparkling Ale or Pale Ale in the other? Any differance in the two batches? I haven't made a starter from a bottle before, any hints or tips? For the information of overseas readers, Cooper's bottle condition their Ales and Stouts, which Aussie homebrewers can make yeast starters from. Cheers Stephen - -- Stephen Hudson Finance & Supply Section phone: +61 3 669-4563 Bureau of Meteorology fax: +61 3 669-4254 Melbourne Victoria AUSTRALIA e-mail: s.hudson at bom.gov.au Return to table of contents
Date: Mon, 20 Jun 94 19:59:13 EDT From: BrewerBob at aol.com Subject: Extract Brewing This is to the person who stated that extract beer wasn't beer at all. I think it was ILKKA or something like that... You need to learn a lot more about brewing beer. The mega brewers such as Miller (and I know it is questionable as to whether they make =beer= at all!) make extract beer! Sure, they start with the grain(s) and do a mash, but they end up with a high gravity extract which is some cases is sent to other brewing locations that don't mash at all. By taking S.G. readings on the extract, they can determine how much water to add to make the EXACT same beer every time! Since there are variations in the grain from batch to batch and year to year, it is the only way they can insure a consistant product. Oh, the extract that they send to other locations is also hopped, and hop oil/extract is also sent separately. I know of at least one brewery (mega type) that has never seen a hop flower in the plant! One more note - In 1992 (I am almost sure it was that year), the AHA Best of Show award went to an extract Pilsner that didn't even have any adjunct grains in the recipe! It is generally accepted that all-grain brews are better and win more prizes but that may be simply because the better brewers make all-grain beer! I make extract beer and it is very good beer. I'm happy with it, I know it costs a bit more but I am willing to trade off the cost for the saving in time. Chill out, Dude! BrewerBob at aol.com Return to table of contents
Date: Mon, 20 Jun 1994 18:58:35 -0600 (MDT) From: MATTD at UWYO.EDU Subject: extract vs. grain All this arguing about extract seems pretty silly. I brew with all grain but I just taught a friend how to brew with extracts. I had forgotten how easy it was to do. The beer came out quite good. It is definitely harder to screw up. Yes, some don't turn out that well and it is more expensive, but for the person who wants a good beer without all the hassle it is definitely the way to go. Return to table of contents
Date: Mon, 20 Jun 94 22:02:15 -0400 From: Geoffrey Talvola <gtalvola at BBN.COM> Subject: First All-Grain beer! Hello Homebrew Digest; this is my first posting but I've been lurking for a while... Before this weekend I had three extract batches under my belt. My first two were Papazian's Vagabond Gingered Ale and Palace Bitter, and I was feeling adventurous so for the third I did a 1/3 honey, 2/3 wheat/barley extract brew fermented with Chimay yeast and dry-hopped with Cascades :-0 It actually turned out to be a very complex and tasty, if unusual, brew. So this last weekend I made my first venture into all-grain... I wanted to get by with minimal cost and new equipment purchases. I already owned 2 glass carboys, one 4-gallon aluminum brewpot, and a plastic bottling bucket with spigot at the bottom. So I bought the following: another brewpot (5-gallon enamel-on-steel, 15 bucks), a grain bag (10 bucks -- I know, that's too much to pay) and 25 feet of copper tubing for a chiller (10 or 15 bucks from a hardware store, I can't remember). I infusion mashed on the stove in the enamel brewpot and stuck it in a preheated oven to maintain mash temp. After an hour I lautered in the plastic bottling bucket. I stuck a vegetable steamer in it to make a false bottom, and then put the grain bag in on top of that. I put in a few inches of foundation water, then ladled the grains in along with water to keep the water level above the grains, and then laid a small plate on top of the grains. I sparged with 180-degree water by carefully pouring onto the plate, thus avoiding disturbing the grain bed. I recirculated one pitcher and then slowly drained into my two brewpots, adding sparge water whenever the water level dropped almost below the grain level. Sparging took about .5 hours and went without a hitch. Then I started both brewpots boiling. I divided the boiling hops between the two brewpots equally. After an hour, I added half the aroma hops to brewpot number 1 and started chilling it. When it was done chilling, I added the rest of the aroma hops to brewpot 2 and chilled it. Then I splashed all the wort into my sanitized carboy, trub, hop gunk and all, and pitched my starter. I'll rack in a week. My chilling technique was simple -- I filled the bottling bucket with ice water, connected a plastic tube to the spigot on the bottom, connected this tube to the copper coil which I immersed in the brewpot, connected another plastic tube to the other end of the coil, and let the hot water run out into a waiting trash can. The bottling bucket was up on a counter, so the water was fed through the coil by gravity. I'd refill the bottling bucket with water as needed, and dump out the trash can of hot water when necessary. The only problem was that only about half of the coil was actually submerged into the wort because I shaped it stupidly (I used vertically looping coils which were too large, rather than compact coils parallel to the floor which would have worked much better). So it took longer to chill the 2 brewpots than I would have liked (about 1/2 hr for each brewpot). But next time I'll fix that problem by reshaping the coils. The recipe was Papazian's Monkey's Paw Brown Ale, and I used Wyeast Irish Ale with a starter. I stupidly forgot to measure OG so I have no idea how much extraction I got but what the heck, it looked and tasted good to me. The whole process was easier than I thought, and even with the slow chill and accounting for the extremely weak gas burners on my stove, the whole process took only 6 hours (compared to 4 usually for my extract brews). Much of this time was spent playing cards. Folks, all-grain is easy! I can't wait to find out how good it tastes! I doubt I'll go back to extract. By the way, thanks for all of the informative and encouraging posts here on the Digest! All the info I have gleaned from the digest made my first mash go as smoothly as I could have ever hoped. - Geoff Talvola gtalvola at bbn.com Return to table of contents
Date: Mon, 20 Jun 1994 21:21:29 -0500 (CDT) From: "David W. Magnuson" <dwmagnus at cs.twsu.edu> Subject: 5L Mini Kegs Hi Fellow Brewers, Would someone please send an address or phone number where I can get the 5L Mini Kegs? I followed the thread a couple of months ago, but I misplaced my notes on vendors. Private Email is fine to cut down on bandwidth noise (like this). Thanks in advance, David W. Magnuson DWMAGNUS at CS.TWSU.EDU *********************************************************************** Return to table of contents
Date: Mon, 20 Jun 94 23:19:32 EDT From: Pbr322 at aol.com Subject: Saccharine I recently purchased Dave Line's "Brewing Beers Like Those You Buy." A lot of the recipes include saccharine tablets. I know that this is supposed to supply the residual sweetness associated with some commercial beers that we seem to lose with our "more complete" homebrew fermentation. However, I am not a fan of saccharine by any stretch of the imagination in any incarnation, and really don't want to add it to my beer. Has anyone tried these recipes?? Any comments on the saccharine?? Is there an alternative method (like adding lactose, or something...) that I could substitute for the saccharine?? Some of the recipes look really interesting, and I would like to try them, I'm just wary of the saccharine thing. Any comments, esp alternatives would be appreciated. Thanks in advance. Cheers Return to table of contents
Date: Mon, 20 Jun 94 10:53:31 EDT From: Pierre Jelenc <pcj1 at columbia.edu> Subject: cleaning copper In HBD #1454, mole at netcom.com (Aaron Birenboim) asks >I have some copper tubing (chiller) which needs serious cleaning. It has >a scale, which is likely to be a combination of mineral deposits and >oxides? of copper (the green stuff). How should I remove it? Vinegar, >TSP, Lye, stronger acid (i have pickel, and could most likely get some >nitric). Do NOT use nitric acid, it would eat your copper in short order. A brief immersion in a non-oxidizing acid (dilute HCl for instance) is OK; citric acid may be better if the scale is a calcium salt deposit. Lye and strongly basic cleaners would work for organic grunge, but are not likely to be of much use on a mineral deposit. I would rather buy fresh tubing (and clean the oil inside with a strong detergent such as Alconox). Pierre Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 21 Jun 94 08:00:55 EST From: Ian_Sutherland_at_AMSNYO01 at mail.amsinc.com Subject: Hangovers Ronald Narvaez made me think of my past encounters with various types of beer. I am interested in collecting your experiences and solutions in dealing with hangovers to see if there is a common thread. So please send private e-mail and maybe later I can summarize on the HBD. Over the years I have noticed that Real Ale does not give me a hangover. I can drink 3 pints of the pasteurized Bass here in New York and get a pounding headache before I get home even with drinking water. However, a trip to England and 8 pints of Marstons Pedigree provide no such effect even with only a few hours sleep and no water. And I have never felt any ill effects from my own homebrew! Back in the early 70s (college days) hangovers were quite common, but then those were the days when all the big brewers (in England) were switching to their cheap to keep pasteurized kegged "ale". I figure there are alot of drinkers out there who can thank CAMRA for making their mornings brighter! Anyway, I digress, please send me your experiences and let me see what the common factors are. Ian Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 21 Jun 94 08:16:59 EDT From: Lou King <lking at hns.com> Subject: Re: Wort cooling >>>>> On Sat, 18 Jun 94 12:58:09 CDT, Phil Miller said: Phil> What methods do you in homebrew-land use to cool your wort? I was Phil> thinking of using ice in a sink and placing the boiling pot in the ice Phil> for 15 or so minutes. Any suggestions? Private email is most welcome. The people in "homebrew-land" will argue for days about two types of chillers: immersion and counter-flow. I use an immersion chiller. It is about 25-30' of copper tubing through which cold tap water is run. The tubing is in a spiral which fits in your kettle. The chiller is immersed in the wort to cool it. This is easy for me because I put the chiller into the boil about 10 minutes before the end to sterilize it. Others use what's known as a counter-flow chiller. This is a copper tube which is inside a hose. The hot wort flows through the copper while cold water is run outside the copper through the hose in the opposite direction. I have no experience with that, but I'm told that it cools the wort more quickly than the immersion chiller. My favorite mail order shop The Malt Shop (800-235-0026) has an immersion chiller for $31.95. I picked one up locally for around $35. Good luck with the chiller. BTW, you have an interesting name. There's usually plenty of talk on this group about the best malt mill (grinder) to buy. A guy named Dan Listerman makes one named the "Phil Mill" (named after his son). Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 21 Jun 1994 08:29:40 EST From: "pratte" <PRATTE at GG.csc.peachnet.edu> Subject: Tylenol In yesterday's HBD, Ronald Narvaez mentions avoiding a hangover by taking vitamin B and TYLENOL (a la Papazian). As I pointed out to Charlie about 6 months ago, he needs to correct this advice in his book. As reported in several medical journals in the last year, it is a BIG NO NO to mix alcohol and Tylenol (more appropriately, acetiminophen). Apparently, the mixture is lethal to your liver and can lead to cirrhosis with prolonged use. I should point out that similar studies with other pain killers such as ibuprofen have not been done, which is the reason you have not seen warning labels on Tylenol (i.e. Tylenol sued the government, stating that until it does studies on the others, it can't force them to label their product). If anyone wants the source of this information, they can either check their newspapers from last August or I'll try to dredge up my sources, if necessary. Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 21 Jun 1994 07:55:25 From: lkbonham at beerlaw.win.net (Louis K. Bonham) Subject: Keg "crimes" #2 Jeff Frane responds to my inquiry regarding the "crime" of not returning an empty keg with the following thoughts. Pardon me for using bandwidth to respond, but I seem to have hit a vein of interest among many HBD readers: >Well I am not (thank goodness) an attorney, but I think there are two >issues. One is simply moral (I will refrain from lawyer cracks): the >kegs are *clearly* the property of the person/company who paid for them >by buying them either from the manufacturer another brewery . . . . >I have no doubt that a lawyer could make a good case for something else >- -- that's what lawyers are for, apparently. But *anyone* with the >ability to differentiate between right and wrong can see who really owns >the keg. Whoa! You're confusing apples and oranges. While many things that are immoral are also illegal (and vice versa), morality and the law are *not* always the same (i.e., what one believes is "wrong" isn't automatically illegal any more than what one believes is right is automatically legal). Whether law and morality *should* be the same is a matter of personal belief that probably should't be debated in the HBD; I'm only telling you that as a practical matter, one's sense of right and wrong is not an incorruptable barometer of what's legal and what's illegal. My question (please refer to my original message) was if anyone had a citation to a statute or regulation that supports the assertion that the brewery unconditionally and at all time owns the keg, or otherwise criminalizes the possession of an empty. As to the assertion that kegs are "*clearly* the property" of the brewery, the issue is whether title passes to the consumer upon payment of the deposit. I can assure you that while I cannot claim to be certain of the correct answer to this question (that's why I posted my inquiry in the first place), I can tell you that from a legal standpoint the accuracy of a brewery's claim of unconditional ownership of a keg at all times is hardly "clear." >Secondly, your "purchaser" is purchasing the *beer*, not the keg. It's >a very clear contract; when you buy the beer, you pay a deposit on the >keg. It is hardly a "very clear contract" -- a consumer purchase of a keg of beer is almost always an oral contract accompanied by the payment for the beer and a deposit for the keg, with *no* documentation of what the deposit represents. This brings us to the real question: what (from a legal standpoint) is a deposit? Usually, a deposit is just liquidated damages in the event of a breach of the implicit promise by the consumer to return the empty keg; i.e., if you don't return the keg, the seller gets to keep the deposit in lieu of having to sue for breach of contract. (The same rule holds for returnable bottles.) As a party to a liquidated damages contract is perfectly free to breach the contract (such freedom is one purpose of a liquidated damages clause), the brewer is conceding the potential loss of the keg in return for receipt of the deposit by the distributor. In any event, *title passes to the keg* upon sale if my analysis that deposit=liquidated damages is correct, and I have seen nothing to indicate that it is not. When a consumer purchases a container of milk, beer, or what have you, it is implicit that he also purchases the container it comes in. If the seller is only "loaning" or "renting" the container, there's gonna have to be something in the sales contract to document this fact. (The mere fact that the brewer doesn't intend to allow the consumer to forfeit his deposit won't cut it -- there's got to be some manifestation in the consumer/retailer contract.) To phrase it differently, why is a keg any different from a returnable bottle? Conceptually and legally, they are the same, unless there is something in the consumer's contract to differentiate them. Again, I see nothing that does so. If breweries don't want their kegs to disappear, they can just increase the amount of the deposit or they can structure their retail sales "contract" to expressly provide that title to the keg does *not* pass to the consumer. The fact that they do not do so does not, however, magically translate into some abrogation of the apparent authority of the retailer to pass title to the keg, nor does it transform what appears to be a simple breach of contract into a criminal offense. Interesting issue, no? Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 21 Jun 1994 07:58:00 -0500 (CDT) From: John Hartman <jhartman at VNET.IBM.COM> Subject: Re: Homebrewing hits the airwaves / rightous brewing Excerpts from mail: 21-Jun-94 Homebrew Digest #1455 (June.. Request No Articles at hpfc (45733) > On another note, this weekend I turned on the TV and was surprised as heck > to see my first (gasp) ** infomercial ** for a homebrewing kit!! > Yes, you thought these things were confined to exercise machines and > kitchen gadgets, but NOO....... > [...] > Has anyone else seen this, or is it just here in the twin cities?? It was shown here in Rochester, MN also (yeah, only 70 miles away). I thought it was kind of a joke, but maybe that was because of the "host" (Way too corny for my taste). But it was good for a laugh after a mediocre Saturday Night Live. ;-) Actually, it does look like a decent startup kit, although a tad pricey, I thought, for only a 3-4 gallon plastic pail (but you get those great labels ;-). -jh Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 21 Jun 94 08:22 CDT From: arf at mcs.com (Jack Schmidling) Subject: Filters One aspect of filters has been alluded to in this discussion but I would like to spell it out clearly. After much expense, trial, error and frustration, it has become clear that all microns are not equal. When experts with professional equipment advise on the characteristics of filters and recommend which one to use for what in brewing, this can lead to a great deal of wheel spinning trying to replicate the results. It is a fact that yeast and most bacteria can not pass through a one micron filter. The problem is that NONE of the string wound filters that are easily available to hombrewers filter at anything like the level they quote. My suggestion, to those who want to use them, is to find a .5 micron and don't expect any great results. The .5 micron pleated filter from the Filter Store does a much better job but yeast and bacteria are not hard to find with a microscope in beer filtered with it. So again my advice is, unless you can afford the real thing, this one can be used with fair results and no fear of filtering out flavor components. It might be useful if George Fix would post the exact part numbers and ordering information on the units he uses. His most recent comments put everything into perspective but left me drooling. I would ask him privately but I doubt that I am the only one wanting this info. js Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 21 Jun 1994 10:04:22 -0400 (EDT) From: Laurence Libelo <lauren at back.vims.edu> Subject: Beer in Hong Kong Does anyone know of a decent beer brewed in Hong Kong or southern China? I will be there this summer and would like to sample the local brews. Thanks Lauren Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 21 Jun 94 10:18:20 EDT From: Nancy.Renner at um.cc.umich.edu Subject: Scorching, heatwave, "favorite ale yeast", gypsum, lengthy quotes, IDs From *Jeff* Renner Some old stuff I didn't post last week: Steve Scampini is going to try that extract Duvel but thinks he may have a scorching problem. Steve, the metal plate sounds good, but I haven't got any experience with that. What I have observed as a (not rare) problem (and one that had when I first brewed, with black flakes in the wort) is scorching caused by adding the extract to a hot bottomed kettle. After you bring the water to a boil, turn the heat off and wait until all boiling ceases. Then add the extract, stirring as you go. After it is thoroughly mixed, bring it back to a boil. I use an electric stove (ugh!), probably a hotter spot source, and never had scorching with my enameled kettle during all the years I used it. - ------ CookingInCt (DUBOVIK at hsdwl.utc.com) has heatwave problems. I think that even a musty smelling basement for your whole process is better than the hot upstairs. Can you manage a dehumidifier? Some great beers have come out of musty cellars. Just practice good sanitation. - -------- Al K. praises the contributions of different yeasts and doesn't like recipes that call for "your favorite ale yeast." I agree that the different yeasts available make as big a difference in the quality and authenticity of our beers as anything else. But I think we have to cut these books some slack as historical sources. It wasn't too long ago that you could buy any yeast you liked, as long as it was Red Star banana yeast, now thankfully replaced. I learned how to brew all grain from Dave Line's BBB and still have a soft place for it in my heart. It's a shame he died before the hobby really got going here. But Charlie, I think it's time for a new edition! - -------- Jeremy Ballard Bergsman responds to Terry Terfinko's water: >Your water is nice and soft so it is easy to adjust for brewing. Add about > .5 g/gal of NaCl and 1 g/gal of CaCl2 unless making a beer that wants soft >water (e.g. pilsener). Add .5 g/gal MgSO4 (Epsom salts) for pale ales. >Throw away the gypsum. Let me add another opinion. I think Ca(+2) is important in any mash, including Pilsners, unless you want to do an *long* rest to drop the pH, a method devised out of necessity in Pilsen to cope with their very soft water. Fine pilsners can be and are made with harder water. CaCl2 is a good source of Ca(+2) at 50 - 100 ppm (Miller) to quickly drop the mash pH for lagers. I like to use gypsum (CaSO4) as the calcium source for pale ales because the sulfate adds to that dry hoppy bitterness. Using epsom salts for the SO4 will supply too much Mg when providing enough SO4. Foster (Pale Ale) suggests these targets: Calcium 100-200 ppm Magnesium 10-30 Sodium 10-20 Bicarbonate <50 Sulfate 300-500 Chloride 20-40 One g/gal gypsum will provide 60ppm Ca and 150 ppm SO4. One g/gal Epsom salts = 26ppm Mg and 100 ppm SO4 One g/gal table salt = 100ppm Na and 150 ppm Cl You can use these plus your analysis to figure your needs. I wouldn't throw away the gypsum. - --------------------- A question on quoting. A lot of contributors quote an entire (or nearly entire) article to which they refer. Unless you want to document that so-and-so actually said *exactly* something, wouldn't a summary serve to remind us of the article and save bandspace? Sometimes the quotes are far longer than the answers. - ------ A related suggestion. Some addresses give no hint as to identity. I'd appreciate knowing someone's name, and could remember them better from time to time, if they signed their name rather than remaining an anonymous series of numbers and/or letters. It would make the digest more personal. Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor Return to table of contents
Date: Mon, 20 Jun 94 12:11:00 PDT From: "McGaughey, Nial" <nmcgaugh at hq.walldata.com> Subject: phone numbers for Foxx Bevg/Grainger.. hot break racking cane.. Hi all.. I've seen several references to Foxx Beverage corp & Grainger supply.. 1-800-555-1212 doesn't have numbers for these guys... so the question is: would someone make me a hoppy person and E-mail these numbers for me, I want a catalog from them!!.. does anyone use a racking cane for racking finished wort from hot break? what do you use? I have seen the Zymurgy ideas for one, but want other ideas.. I thought the ZooBrew(TM) story was hilarious.. reminded me of some of the better posts on alt.tasteless, the place to learn about mercaptan and its lovely pungency.. One last thing: to all the people who contribute technical information, and personal experiences to this digest: I say thank you, and a tip of the pint glass.Your efforts are not wasted. You all have saved me many years of experimentation and failures, and allowed me to brew the best beer I can with the equipment I have. Cheers, Nial McGaughey Wall Data Product Development Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 21 Jun 1994 11:10:33 -0400 (EDT) From: Jim Busch <busch at daacdev1.stx.com> Subject: Re: Cold Conditioning Altbier > Dan Listermann wrote about a UK malting Dan, thanks for the informative post, it sure beats those nasty flame wars we have around here when the temp gets too hot!! Jeff writes: > Subject: Re: altbier yeast > I wrote: > > no longer has a filter. So, I ask, do any of these "Alt" yeasts sold > > by the yeast suppliers flocc? If they do, I would be suspect of the > > "authenticity" at least in terms of what is used Dusseldorf. > > > Question is, what did the alt brewers do before filtration systems came > along? Is this perhaps a case of "it won't flocculate -- unless you > cold-condition for a lengthy period"? Which was, I thought, part of the > idea. Of course its part of the idea! Alt: fermented "warm", around 60F, then cold conditioned (lagered) for 2-4 weeks prior to filtration. I did this, the German micro did this, and the yeast did not budge (two years in a row for the micro). And at $100+ a dry cotton ball from Weihenstephan, the yeast source was well known. I think the comparison with age old brewing and today is limited in the Alt discussion. It is entirely possible that Alts served in 1850 were as cloudy as a too hot sparge, or the strain(s) could have been radically different from todays. Jeff, any info on the source of the "Alt" strain sold by Wyeast?? (I have private email that this strain floccs quite well). Good brewing, Jim Busch Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 21 Jun 1994 08:48:16 -0700 From: Steve Peters <stevep at pcx.ncd.com> Subject: homebrew vs safeway bought beer Ya know I was sitting here reading a digest message from Ronald Narvaez about feeling great drinking homebrew and then his proceedure that avoided a hangover the next day and thought of last night at home... The girlfriend sent me out to get a couple of cold beers to go with dinner. She doesn't like my current batch of homebrew. Not only is it room-tempature (gosh, no!) but dryhopped with 2 oz of Mt Hood it has a citrus-y flavor that she dislikes. Well, we drank that mixed six-pack I brought back from Safeway. The Anchor Steam was skunked so bad it tasted like Miller, the Portland Brewing Honey beer was satisfying, but the Bridgeport was kinda on the funky side, too. Then a few hours later I drank about 4 oz of homebrew while watching TV and was struck, as I have been so many times before, by how much better homebrew makes me feel than commercial beer. Commercial beer makes me drunk. Homebrew makes me happy (and sometimes drunk). Could it be the extra Vitamin B? I've tried popping V-B while drinking other beer and I don't get the same effect. What's in Homebrew that makes it different? - -- Steve Peters Sustaining Engineering and Support Network Computing Devices Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 21 Jun 94 11:45:48 EDT From: Nancy.Renner at um.cc.umich.edu Subject: Shaking kegs, hangovers,canning starters,O2 scrubbed?,mead yeasts,BrewerChiller From *Jeff* Renner Further thoughts on my problem with oxidized lagers on tap. I'd never had this problem until I shook the kegs to force carbonate. The problem showed up after about two months on tap. Here's the strange thing. I immediately counter pressure filled several bottles of each for competition, and they showed little or no oxidation (one judge commented out of four for the two beers). They still show no problem, two months later, even though the kegged beer is undrinkable in one case and only barely in the other. I carefully (I thought) purged the kegs before filling, as I have for years. The only difference is the shaking. I even checked my CO2 supplier to see if I got contaminated gas. They assured me there was no way. So Jeff Benjamin, who plans to shake his kegs "the way a madman shakes a dead geranium," I suggest caution. I think something may "loosen" latent HSA that otherwise doesn't cause a problem. I'd welcome other input. As for your carbonation questions, Jeff, I have heard for years that "natural" carbonation in beer and champagne produces finer, longer lasting bubbles. I have also seen this convincingly refuted. I have never seen any difference. I believe bubble size depends on things like proteins, surface tension, etc. Dissolved CO2 is dissolved CO2, regardless of its source or how quickly or slowly it went into solution. A low carbonation will produce a creamy beer. I have gotten full carbonation in fifteen minutes of vigorous shaking for cold beer at high pressure (maybe 30 psi). But see above. I'm going back to slow carbonation. Happy Birthday, Ronald Narvaez, I'm glad you avoided a hangover. Foolishly not leaving medical opinions to professionals, I'm convinced that while the vitamins and Tylenol can't hurt, it's the big glass of water that makes the difference. Alcohol dehydrates big time, and that's a big part of a hangover. Drink a glass of beer, pee a glass and a half. Two glasses with a strong beer. I try to make it a practice to drink at least as much water as beer. At club meetings, where we are sampling many beers, we keep a pitcher of water to rinse our glasses between beers. I always swallow the rinse. Seems to help, and also keeps me from drinking maybe quite so much beer. - ------------ Jeff Sargent, I think your starter wort and children are safe. I certainly have always heard that the pH is low enough to eliminate botulism, etc. A pressure cooker is certain, but unnecessary from my experience. - ------------ zoz at cs.adelaide.edu.au is coming to the states and is concerned that if he brews before he leaves, it will be too late to bottle when he returns, so what should he do with his ingredients. First, it seems to me that unless you are gone months and months (you didn't say) or you have bad storage conditions, you beer would probably be fine sitting in a full secondary. It might even improve. I've often not gotten around to bottling (or kegging) ales for two months or more. It could be free aging time. Otherwise, hop pellets will be fine well wrapped in the freezer, and the fridge should help the malt extracts. - ------------ Norm Pyle says: <during fermentation, oxidation is not an issue because of the CO2 <action, which pushes out oxygen. Norm, I think that the reason it isn't a problem because of the yeast, which will scavenge the O2. Unless O2 is supersaturated, and is nucleates on the CO2 bubbles, its not going to be affected by the CO2. I think it's been stated here before that solubility doesn't work that way - one solute is independent of the others, disregarding reactions, pH changes, etc. - --------------- Rob Skinner, YeastLab has sweet and dry liquid mead yeasts. - --------------- Bill Sutton, thanks for the enjoyable plans for The BrewerChiller! Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 21 Jun 1994 08:50:52 -0700 From: ruderman at esca.com (Curiouser and curiouser...) Subject: Putting a hole in your ceramic-on-steel brew kettle I saw the article in the current edition of "Brewing Techniques" describing the Easy Masher device. In the article, the author says that he installed his first device in a enameled brewing kettle (I assume that is the same as a ceramic-on-steel type of kettle). My question is what's the right way to put a hole into one of these kettles so as not to chip/crack the ceramic coating? Is this something that can be done by a novice? Thanks. Robert Ruderman ESCA Corporation Seattle, WA. Reply: ruderman at esca.com Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 21 Jun 1994 09:08:41 -0700 (PDT) From: Jeff Frane <gummitch at teleport.com> Subject: Re: Good Advice from Korzonas Al Korzonas (who's gone to Denver) wrote: > By the way, Ilkka, if you're thinking of having an argument about this on > the digest: > > 1. don't -- don't clutter the digest -- write to me directly, and > By the way, Al, take your own advice! Was it really necessary to quote Ilkka at length in order to refute him? Couldn't you simply have ignored him or written him directly? It's good advice, really, but what's sauce for the goose... - --Jeff Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 21 Jun 1994 11:15:14 -0500 (CDT) From: Andrew Patrick <andnator at mcs.com> Subject: aflatoxins / diacetyl Seeing as I was the one that started this whole thread, I felt obligated to reply... >From: "Glenace L. Melton" <71242.2275 at CompuServe.COM> writes : >Now that the correct spelling has been established, can anyone tell me how >common aflatoxins are in mouldy barley, wheat, and oats? How stable are >they under heating conditions? In particular, does roasting the malt made >with *some* mouldy grains destroy the aflatoxins? In my experience malt >that smells a little bit mouldy will smell OK after drying and roasting to >a medium brown or more. If there is still some aflatoxin will it be >destroyed in a good, long boil? My encyclopedia and Merck's Manual are >silent on this issue. My original message about aflatoxins was mainly a precaution because I felt that moldy barley MAY contain aflatoxin producing aspergillus species. This still holds true. Later in the course at Siebel we had a guest speaker from a malting company (the name escapes me at the moment) that elaborated further on mycotoxins. Mycotoxins are generally the same chemical compound that has several variations, one of these is aflatoxin. All mycotoxins are produced by molds or fungi. Aflatoxin is mostly found on corn, wheat, peanuts, and (I don't have my notes here) if I remember correctly, other nuts like pistachios. The main concern at this point is vomitoxin (sounds wonderful huh?) which is produced by a fugus called Fusaria(sp?) Vomitoxin seems to affect swine and cattle by giving them one hell of a bellyache and causeing them to vomit (hence the name) There is a chemical name for vomitoxin, abbreviated "DON" but again I don't have my notes handy. Anyway, Fusaria, love to grow in cool moist conditions on barley and wheat... remember last summer? The perfect conditions occured with the floods of the Dakotas Red River Valley where the majority of malting barley is grown. The whole crop was affected. Now before you get upset about this, vomitoxin has not been shown to affect humans, and in fact the USDA has not issued a regulatory limit on it. Additionally, the barley that comes from the red river valley is mostly six row. Most homebrewers I know prefer two-row. The two-row crop is/was grown much farther west and was not affected. The only affect that brewers using this grain could expect is a possible gushing problem from the finished beer. In fact I opened a Burghoff the other day that tasted fine, but gushed a bit. To answer the question posted above about destrying the aflatoxins, no, it will not be destroyed. It was found that the level of mycotoxins was decreased with the initial steeping of the grain before malting. Thus, it is probable that mycotoxins are soluable in water. When the barley started to germinate, the mycotoxin level started to increase, but never reached the original level of the raw barley. This was caused by the regrowth of the fungus/mold responsible for the mycotoxin production. Mycotoxins will survive the mashing/brewing process and will be retained in the finished product. If I may add some speculation with no actual testing of fact here, it may be possible to reduce the amount of mycotoxins in the finished product simply by rinsing the malt prior to use. This wouldn't be efficient for large scale breweries, but as homebrewers, it may be a good precaution. Bottom line? Better to not use ANY moldy product. The mycotoxin that is on the rampage in last years barley crop is not shown to harm people. Vomitoxin. (Unless you feed your grist to your pigs!) Mainly the 6-row crop is affected. (I won't say "only 6-row" 'cause I don't know for sure if all 2-row is clean) A washing of the malt before mashing may help reduce the mycotoxin. *********** Al Writes back in HBD1451 : >You have to be careful with that class, Rich. You would not be the first >person I know to come out of it with "Chicken Little Syndrome" (the sky >is falling!). One person I know who took that class now smells diacetyl >in every beer. In a microbiology class the first thing they show you is just how prevalent microorganisms are. The first experiment we did was to test surfaces of various items to see what would grow. One person tested a half of a dollar bill and managed to grow two different molds and three different bacteria. Another, and this is the scary one, tested the surface of a freshly cleaned bar glass. He grew a couple of wild yeasts, and four bacteria! I think the emphasis that Siebel places on diacetyl may be with good reason. Most of the students are from major breweries (AB, Miller, Coors) which produce mainley lagers. They definitely don't want diacetyl in their beer. but mainly, they stress, that diacetyl in large amounts, may be coming from a bacteria infection or resperatory defecient yeast. Neither of which you want taking over your brewhouse. I agree though, its tough to walk out of there and not look at everything as a potential problem. => Rich larsen My E-mail is busted! I think Speedway is belly up! Thank you Andrew Patrick for allowing me use of your account! I can be reached though andnator at mcs.com or better to call HomeBrew University BBS at (708) 705-7263 Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 21 Jun 94 09:22:27 PDT From: hollen at megatek.com (Dion Hollenbeck) Subject: Re: Mash and specialty grains >>>>> "John" == Montgomery John <Montgomery_John at lanmail.ncsc.navy.mil> writes: John> What is the collective wisdom on specialty grains and mashing? John> Is there any point in adding these during the mash or should John> they be held out for steeping during the pre-boil of the wort? There is at least one reason to mash these, but it is a special combination. When using darkly roasted grains such as chocolate and black patent malts, they lower the pH considerably. Here in San Diego, we have very high pH water, so the combination of the dark grains in the mash lowers the pH just perfectly. Most responses I have heard on this discussion say that you can do either mash or steep, but if you have low pH water and mash dark grains, you could be lowering your pH too low. Dion Hollenbeck (619)675-4000x2814 Email: hollen at megatek.com Staff Software Engineer Megatek Corporation, San Diego, California Return to table of contents
End of HOMEBREW Digest #1456, 06/22/94