FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Rob Gardner, Digest Janitor


Contents:
  The French & Jupp Maltings (Dan Listermann)
  Re: Ilkka Sysil{ <isysila at clinet.fi> (John Keane)
  Re: altbier yeast (Jeff Frane)
  Goldings hops - overrated? (ANDY WALSH)
  Mexican Pubs (ANDY WALSH)
  Operation of Honeywell temperature controller (Jay Lonner)
  Steam Beer question (David Draper)
  BREWER'S RESOURCE / GLATT Mills (JameyJay)
  INBOX Message (See Below) (Mailer.MC1)
  Altbier in D-dorf (Michael Sheridan)
  Best Mail-Order Start-Up Kits? (Robert Pyle)
  HBD reader chiller design (Bill Sutton)
  Aspergillus/Theses (Algis R Korzonas +1 708 979 8583)
  Homebrewing hits the airwaves / rightous brewing ("Andy Schultz - DP  at 290-1490")
  more cloudy beer (cush)
  Hangover cure!!! (rnarvaez)
  Where to start.... (U-E68882-John Bloomberg)
  Malt liquor / Dry hopping / Flamebait (npyle)
  Party Pig results (via RadioMail) <jhorzepa at radiomail.net>
  Keg Ownership (Jeff Frane)
  Re: Propane Cookers (Rick Myers)
  AGING MEAD & RECIPE R (david.moeny)
  Extract Fumes in Hades (James Thompson)
  SNPA - missing date codes? (Phil Duclos)
  Canning wort may be toxic? (Jeff Sargent)
  Hop pellet storage (Final Premonition)
  Wyeast London (BUKOFSKY)
  On Ilkka moor bot hat! ("Glenace L. Melton")
  Aflatoxins ("Glenace L. Melton")
  Grape Aroma (Terri Terfinko)
  Thanks for beginner's technique responses (David Rodger)
  Ilkka's thesis (HOMEBRE973)


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----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: 19 Jun 94 11:41:53 EDT
From: Dan Listermann <72723.1707 at CompuServe.COM>
Subject: The French & Jupp Maltings


My wife and I attended the 1994 International Homebrew Exxxpo in Brighton,
England early this June. I contacted the CompuServe beer forum's own
Brian Davies (100317,3554) who happens to be the maltster at the French &
Jupp Maltings of Stanstead Abbots. He graciously invited us, when we
could, to drop by for a tour.

I thought that I had better jump on this, so on our first morning in
London we took the "tube" to Liverpool Station and caught the first train
for St. Margarets which, as I have come to understand, is across the River
Leeds form Stanstead Abbots. Brian met us at the station, showed us some
of F & J's older properties (1700's) that are now used as business
incubators and started the tour. As this was not my wife's (she who must
be obeyed) idea of touring London, Brian kept it to a manic pace.

F & J only produces specialty grains - various crystal, chocolate, black
patent malts and roasted barley. They no longer produce any pale malts.

They try to keep as little raw material on site as possible. Usually a
three day supply is enough. The barley is delivered on demand from local
farms by truck. A squadron of plump ducks form the backbone of the grounds
maintenance crew.

The barley is first sieved to remove undersize corns. There is about a 2%
loss. It is then transfered by conveyor to the seeping tanks which are
large cylindroconical vessals with slotted conical false bottoms. The
seep tanks are positioned over rotatable germinating drums. 15 metric
tons of barley are seeped for about 60 hours. The tanks are drained of
seep water every 16 hours and allowed to air for 8. At the end of the seep
the corns are very plump and smooth. They have begun to "chit" or just
begun to show rootlets. 

At this point the gremination drum's doors are positioned under the tanks
and opened. The now chitted grain is allowed, with a bit of coaxing, to
fall into the the drum while being sprayed with gibberillic acid - a
natural, fungal derived, substance which speeds germination. 

F & J use the pneumatic malting method as opposed to the older floor
malting method. Humidified air is blown up through the seed mass while the
grain germinates.
 
The drums are large cylinders mounted horizontaly on bogies. They are
rotated by way of a large bull gear. The humidified air is blown into the
drum through a false bottom that forms a chord across the drum. The drums
are slowly rotated three times a day to break up the root mass and to
assure homogeneity. After four days the grain is sprouted enough for
further processing. 

The grain, now called green malt, is removed from the drums by way of an
auger that is formed on the inside diameter of the drums. The auger moves
the material to the doors, out to conveyors and into silos which hold it
for roasting. 

Crystal malt is the primary product of the 3 ton roasters. They are fired
rotating cylinders analogous somewhat to cement kilns. Here the green malt
is effectivly mashed in the husk. They are heated to conversion
temperature for a peroid and then roasted dry. Brian withdrew some hot
samples which when squeezed produced a translucent goo that was sticky to
feel and sweet to taste - sugar. When the operator feels the proper color
has been achieved, the roasters are dumped and the crystal malt is cooled
with air.

As the malt is transported for inspection and packing, the rootlets called
culms, are removed by way of a cyclonic seperator for sale as animal feed.
After final inspection, an eighty-something gentleman oversees the the
filling of 75 kg (165 lbs.) bags.

The dark malts are not processed in the germinating drums at all. Roasted
barley is in fact not even seeped, but simply roasted. The black patent
and chocolate malts are seeped until they chit and transfered to an old
kiln where they are slowly heated for 11 hours at 176'F over an oil fire.
This intermediate product is called "roasters" is converted into the final
product in a roaster like the ones used for the crystal malt.

The old kiln attracted special attention to me when Brian offhandedly
remarked that it was where they used to make brown malt - the origional
ingredient to Porter. Be sure that Brian is now aware, if he was not
already, of the fact that there are people who would kill for some genuine
brown malt.

The tour finished with a look at the French & Jupp Museum and a short time
in the lab. Brian gave me some samples of their malts and some raw barley
which I intend to grow for seed next year. He also gave me four very nice
wood coasters with the F & J logo printed on them.

I would like to thank Brian for the highlight of my ( perhaps not my
wife's) trip to England.
 
Dan Listermann   



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Date: Sun, 19 Jun 94 13:11:27 EDT
From: keane at cs.rutgers.edu (John Keane)
Subject: Re: Ilkka Sysil{ <isysila at clinet.fi>

Thank you for sharing. :-\

_John_

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Date: Sat, 18 Jun 1994 12:07:08 -0700 (PDT)
From: Jeff Frane <gummitch at teleport.com>
Subject: Re: altbier yeast

Jim Busch writes:

> 
> It is always difficult to determine the real sources of strains as they
> move through the yeast industry. It makes it quite hard for the home-
> brewer to make intelligent choices.  Several times one of our local 
> micros have used the Weihenstephan Alt yeast.  I have also used this
> same strain from the local micro.  The yeast *will not* flocculate.  This
> subject was brought up to the yeast bank folks at Weihenstephan and 
> thier answer was that this is *the* Alt yeast and tough, it wont
> flocc.  This apparently is a non issue in Germany where the vast majority
> of Alts are filtered beers.  Unfortuneatly, our local "German" micro
> no longer has a filter.  So, I ask, do any of these "Alt" yeasts sold
> by the yeast suppliers flocc?  If they do, I would be suspect of the
> "authenticity" at least in terms of what is used Dusseldorf.
> 
Question is, what did the alt brewers do before filtration systems came
along?  Is this perhaps a case of "it won't flocculate -- unless you
cold-condition for a lengthy period"?  Which was, I thought, part of the
idea.

- --Jeff



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Date: Mon, 20 Jun 94 11:00:19 +1000
From: ANDY WALSH <awalsh at ozemail.com.au>
Subject: Goldings hops - overrated?




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Date: Mon, 20 Jun 94 12:23:57 +1000
From: ANDY WALSH <awalsh at ozemail.com.au>
Subject: Mexican Pubs

I am planning on a trip to Mexico soon (September, but I like to plan ahead!). 
Does anyone know where good beer is available in the Mexico City vicinity? Are 
there any decent Mexican beers or are they all like Corona in style?

Andy W.






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Date: Sun, 19 Jun 1994 19:47:12 -0800 (PST)
From: Jay Lonner <8635660 at NESSIE.CC.WWU.EDU>
Subject: Operation of Honeywell temperature controller

I recently bought a Honeywell model T4031A temperature controller for use with
a spare refrigerator.  It cost $60.00 but has a much bigger range than the
Hunter, from -30 to 90 degrees Fahrenheit.  But I wonder what the lowest
temperature I can actually get is.  The controller cycles power to the 'fridge
on and off, but doesn't bypass the internal refrigerator thermostat.  I can't
see how the temperature can ever get lower than the lowest possible temperature
that the refrigerator is set up for internally -- even if I have the Honeywell
set to -30, it doesn't override the internal sender and the compressor won't
kick on below a certain preset minimum temperature.

So I guess my question is in two parts: one, is the above description accurate?
And two, if for some reason I wanted to lager at -30 (not that I would, I'm
just curious) how could I go about bypassing this limitation?

Jay.

P.S.  One more data point for the sparge-water debate.  I use a Phil's phalse
bottom and sparger, installed in two separate 5-gallon Gott coolers (one is the
lauter tun, the other is the sparge water reservoir).  In my most recent
brewing session I boiled my sparge water, poured it into the lauter tun to
pre-heat it, and then poured it into the reservoir.  I lost some heat (oops,
make that thermal energy) in the process, but the temp of the sparge water was
well over 168 degrees.  The mash in the lauter tun never got above 160 degrees,
supporting Jack's point that "proper" sparge water temperature depends upon
your lautering set-up.  I find it a little galling to be standing up for
Mr. Magnetism Himself(TM), but in this case he seems to have a valid point.

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Date: Mon, 20 Jun 1994 12:57:27 +1000 (EST)
From: David Draper <David.Draper at mq.edu.au>
Subject: Steam Beer question

Dear Friends, I just bottled a batch of ale made with Wyeast 2112
California Lager; I'm shooting for an amber ale of the Steam Beer style. 
General characteristics: 23 litres, 3 kg light extract syrup, couple
hundred grams each of 15L Munich and 80L crystal, bittered with Cluster,
finished and dry-hopped with Cascades.  It went through primary and secondary
fermentation at about 15-17C, and I am wondering if such a style would be
best served by cold storage in the bottle.  I can't do true lagering--no
beer fridge.  But the outdoor temps in the shady part of my balcony cycle
from 4 to 10C, so I could use that.  So should I cold-store it as best I
can, or just treat it like a regular ale?  What does Anchor do?
Thanks for any comments, Cheers, Dave in Sydney

- -- 
******************************************************************************
David S. Draper			School of Earth Sciences, Macquarie University
ddraper at laurel.ocs.mq.edu.au	NSW 2109 Sydney, Australia
Fax: +61-2-805-8428		Voice: +61-2-805-8347

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Date: Mon, 20 Jun 94 00:25:43 EDT
From: JameyJay at aol.com
Subject: BREWER'S RESOURCE / GLATT Mills

I visited Brewer's Resource (Camarillo, CA) this past weekend to stock up on
supplies
and discovered they had 12 Glatt mills in stock. These appear to be the 
latest version as they are made entirely out of stainless steel. Of course,
I make no claims about their performance. But if anyone's looking for
one.....

In other BR's news, they are preparing their summer catalog to be mailed out 
in the next few weeks and their "masterpiece" catalog for the fall. Expect to
see some new items such as a half barrel turnkey brewing system, draft
filtration unit, wort aerating unit, counterflow wort chiller, refrigeration
temperature controller, and four NEW strains of yeast. Looks like a
lot of good stuff. 

A satisfied customer......

Jamey Johns


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Date: 20 Jun 94 02:27:14 U
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Subject: Homebrew Digest #1454 (June 20, 1994)



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Date: Mon, 20 Jun 94 7:36:03 EDT
From: mikesher at acs.bu.edu (Michael Sheridan)
Subject: Altbier in D-dorf

'Morning, y'all.
	Some random notes on altbier and life in Deutschland:
Remember the thread on the lids of beer-steins?  Those are called 
"bier deckels", beer lids, and have a lot to do with keeping off the buggies.
The little coasters that you always get with your glass of beer in Germany are
also called 'deckels', and it's pretty common to see Germans putting the 
coaster over the glass in the summertime when at outdoor biergartens.  Keeps
off the yellowjackets.
	I lived in Dusseldorf for 10 months or so, and thought I'd put in my
$.02 to supplement the info in Jackson's big coffee table book.
	The 4 brewpubs of D-dorf are really peculiar places.  Zum Uerige is 
famous for having grumpy barkeeps. It's named after its founder, a notorious 
scowler.  The tables are thick slabs of oak, and the food
features a disgusting product lovingly called "stank-kase", a stinky cheese 
marinated in beer.  Try it but be forewarned.  Uerige is usually packed, and 
often spills out into the street in good weather.  If you're inside, watch out
for the barkeeps when they change the barrel on tap.  They roll them around, 
and if you're in the way, you might get a flattened foot.    
	Fuchschen, Shumacher, and Shlussel are all good but lack the bustling
my-God-why-doesn't-this-place-burst-apart-at-the-seams atmosphere.  
	And now the real good dirt:  You can buy the stuff and take it home.
Look in Jackson's New World Guide, p. 72.  See that photo of an Uerige glass 
next to a nice ceramic-top bottle?  You can't buy those bottles at the bar, so
go to one of D-dorf's BIG department stores (I'd suggest Horton's on Graf-
Adolf-Strasse), and find their grocery section.  Look for the bottled beer area
and stock up on Uerige!!!  Now go up to the housewares section.  Somewhere up
there you'll find great 0.2 liter alt glasses, with various big altbrewery 
names on them.  Nice gifts.
	One last note:  My favorite brew from D-dorf isn't very well known.  
It's Schwelmer Alt, from the tiny town of Schwelm, maybe 10 km east of D-dorf.
It's more highly hopped than other alts, and (if I remember right) has a bit of
chocolate malt note, almost like Pete's Wicked Ale.
	Enjoy.  Would y'all believe that I found a cold bottle of Schlosser Alt
at a hotel catering to Germans in Bagamoyo, Tanzania?  It's true but weird.

Mike Sheridan (and Kristina Simmons, who didn't write this but was able to 
               remember the name of the dept. store)
Disclaimer:  I have nothing to do with any of this, and as far as I'm 
              concerned, you didn't hear it from me.   

    

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Date: Mon, 20 Jun 1994 09:05:09 -0400 (EDT)
From: rpyle1 at ef2007.efhd.ford.com (Robert Pyle)
Subject: Best Mail-Order Start-Up Kits?


Greetings,

     I am getting a friend started in Homebrewing and he wants to get
     his initial equipment through mail-order.  I don't shop through
     mail-order, so I don't have a good source to give to him.

     From the accumulated wisdom on the HBD, I figure I could get the
     best advice on what source is best and what they offer.  I'm sure
     that there is one best source and everyone will agree on it, right?

     Private e-mail is best, and If there is interest, I will post a
     summary.

     Thanks a lot.

     --Rob Pyle
     rpyle1 at ef2007.efhd.ford.com


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Date: Mon, 20 Jun 94 9:11:46 EDT
From: Bill Sutton <wrs at hpuerca.atl.hp.com>
Subject: HBD reader chiller design

After reading another HBD full of flame-bait, I have come up with
the following digest reading technique, which I heartily suggest to
all ...

The BrewerChiller!

1) Take 50' of copper tubing. Create coils of approximately 3' diameter
   (adjust for differing body types).

2) Using garden hose and clamps, connect enough hose to reach from
   a water source/drain to the location in which you usually read
   the HBD.

3) Step into the BrewerChiller, making sure the top coils fit snugly
   beneath the armpits.

4) Turn on the cold water and read the HBD.

5) CHILL OUT!!!!!!!!!

The best advantage is that sanitation is not necessary (though washing
the brewer with a solution of mild soap and water on a regular basis
is recommended.)

It's only brewing, folks ...

Bill     wrs at atl.hp.com

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Date: 20 Jun 94 13:27:00 GMT
From: korz at iepubj.att.com (Algis R Korzonas +1 708 979 8583)
Subject: Aspergillus/Theses

Jeff writes (quoting me):
>>>Mildewed or moldy grain may be growing Aspergillus, which is a source of
>>>Alphatoxins.  This substance is a known carcinagen... something I don't
>>>think you'll want in your beer.
>>
>>Someone check me on this, but I believe that not all Aspergillus is nasty.
>>I believe that some form of Aspergillus is what is used to make Sake.
>
>Isn't it Al Korz who said that holding a mouthful of brandy in your mouth 
>will kill you?

Yes, as a matter of fact, that was me, and I must appologize for that one.
It was actually something I gleaned from a "teller of tall tales" back when
I was about 15 years old and not very critical of the knowledge presented to
me.  It's amazing how something you heard as a kid can feel like a law of
physics a couple of decades later.  Again, I appologize.

> Aspergillus species are common fungi that are ubiquitous in our 
>environment.  Various types can be found on our skin, ears, or in soil.
>A. flavus, the species that makes aflatoxin, is a mold found on peanuts,
>corn, and *GRAIN*.  

>From Dorland's medical dictionary:
>      AFLATOXIN
>     "a toxic factor produced by aspergillus flavus...in experimental animals
>     it causes liver necrosis, bile duct proliferation, and cirrhosis, and 
>     on prolonged administration, leads to hepatocellular carcinoma and 
>     cholangiocarcinoma.  It has also been implicated as a cause of human
>     hepatic carcinoma."
>     
>There have been reports of communities in eastern Europe/Russia that have 
>been struck with epidemics of liver injury and death after the harvesting
>of grain that had been left in field too long that resulted in the 
>development of A. flavus infection on the grain.

Read what I said again.  Did I contest the Rick's assertion that there
was a type of Aspergillus that produced a dangerous toxin?  No.  I said
that not all Aspergillus may product toxins.  In fact, I was right about
the Sake.  Aspergillus oryzae is the fungus that is used to make Sake.
Koji is rice (usually) which is impregnated with Aspergillus oryzae and
Koji concentrate is also available.  Aspergillus oryzae is sometimes used
in the brewing of American light beers.

>My advice is never use moldy grain in the fabrication of anything for 
>human consumption.  I don't even eat moldy peanuts!

I do not dispute this, in fact I agree 100%.  Why anyone would even try
to make beer with anything but fresh ingredents is beyond me.  My time
is worth a lot more than the ingredients and if I'm going to take the
time to brew, I want to do what I can to maximize the quality of the
resulting beer.

>Al, no flame intended, but leave the medical stuff to health professionals
>and stick to your area of expertise.

Saying "no flame intended" doesn't absolve you from the fact that you made
a personal attack on me.  All this could have been avoided if you would have
just read what I wrote more carefully and read a brewing dictionary instead
of a medical one.

*******
Ilkka writes:
	<edited>
>Thesis 2
>
>We should not even try to talk about microbiologically inferior
>dry yeasts and beer together.

Wrong.  Perfectly delicious (and prize-winning, right George?) beer
can be brewed using high-quality dry yeasts such as Red Star, Nottingham,
Coopers, Windsor and Pasteur.

>Thesis 3
>
>Brewing beer is a delicate biotechnical (biochemical) process
>in which only rightful ingredients (mentioned in Thesis 1) are
>used.
>The biotechnical/-chemical laws governing the brewing process
>must be fully understood. When dealing with electronics one must
>distinguish between AC & DC and know the law of Ohm at least, 
>otherwise the aftermath is black and bitter smoke. I have seen
>astoundingly numerous questions like " What is an enzym, is it
>an animal...how about alfa amylase then ????" etc.
>Plenty of informative texts on brewing (for the literate) 
>have been published since Martin Luther (the medieval German one). 
>Books urging decadent and dangerous habits & practices such as 
>relaxing and not worrying instead of serious and diligent study 
>of the biotechnical principles & laws of brewing process
>can not be recommended.

Wrong again.  One only needs to know the mechanics of brewing to brew
great beer.  The knowledge of tbe biology and chemistry of brewing
helps to predict changes in process and ingredients and to track down
problems, but does not help to make great beer directly.

>Thesis 4
>
>Malt extracts should not be regarded as raw material of beer at all.
>The ingredients of malt extracts are unknown. Malt bill of canned
>extract is unknown, quality and amount of adjuncts & additives are
>unknown, mashing sequence and thus sugar contents (fermentables vs.
>dextrins) is unknown, hops & hopping sequence are unknown; what is
>known actually??? Aside from aforementioned, plenty of the flavour
>compounds that make beer have been either destroyed or evaporated
>by boiling off the water.
>Finally the plenty of non-malt-originated sugar used with extracts
>in order to boost OG, inevitably leads to a grave disbalance of
>fermentables vs. amino-nitrogen. This disbalance always induces
>unhealthy fermentation and leads to inferior result that has nothing
>to do with beer.
>Ridiculously pompous texts like "LAGER", "BITTER" or even "REAL ALE"!!!
>printed on extract cans merely desecrate the names reserved to
>classify real beer.
>Extracts do not make mediocre or lousy beer, they do
>not make beer at all. We should realize, that using extracts is
>only self-fraud and wasting money. Malt extracts are incontrovertibly
>even at their best only malt SURROGATES. Btw quality malt is cheaper
>than any rubbishy extract!

Who died and made you king?  It is true that there are a great many
bad extracts out there and a lot of good extracts that have gone bad
sitting on the shelves of stores that carry 150 brands of extract.
It is true that you don't know the hop schedule or the quality or the
fermentablity of a particular brand of extract when you buy it, but
after you've brewed with it, you know.  The resulting beer will tell
you if the extract was fresh and if it was good quality.  You can then
either use it and adjust the effective grain bill using specialty grains
and add bittering, flavoring and aroma hops, or you can chalk it up to 
experience and never buy that brand again.

I fail to see what benefit your words of "wisdom" added to the digest.

By the way, Ilkka, if you're thinking of having an argument about this on
the digest:

1. don't -- don't clutter the digest -- write to me directly, and

2. don't expect any replies till after the AHA Conference in Denver.

Al.

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Date: Mon, 20 Jun 1994 8:44:50 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Andy Schultz - DP  at 290-1490" <ASCHULTZ at MADMAX.MPR.ORG>
Subject: Homebrewing hits the airwaves / rightous brewing

As an extract brewer, I found Ilkka's comments on rightful brewing
pretty dang funny (whether he intended them to be or not - I suspect
he had a grin on his face...) At least there is is one among us who
can lead us to the incontrivertible TRUTH!! Rail on Ilkka! (but not TOO
much, ok? :)

On another note, this weekend I turned on the TV and was surprised as heck
to see my first (gasp) ** infomercial ** for a homebrewing kit!!
Yes, you thought these things were confined to exercise machines and
kitchen gadgets, but NOO.......

It's being put out by the guy who runs Sherlock's Home here in Minneapolis
(a fine fine brewpub- usual disclaimers apply) - it's kind of weird in that
the kit comes with a square bucket that holds 3 or 4 gallons (looks like a
big piece of Tupperware(tm) with a spigot.  Michael Jackson himself appears
in this, from a pub in London. AND you get a copy of his book with every
order! 

Has anyone else seen this, or is it just here in the twin cities??

|-----------------------------------------------------------------------------|
|                                                                             |
|    Andy Schultz                         Internet:  ASCHULTZ at MPR.ORG         |
|    Minnesota Public Radio                  Phone:  612-290-1490             |
|                                                                             |
|      'You can play sharp or flat in tune' : Ornette Coleman                 |
|                                                                             |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------------------|

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Date: Mon, 20 Jun 1994 10:11:45 -0500 (CDT)
From: cush at msc.edu
Subject: more cloudy beer

Over the weekend I brewed a low gravity bitter after a recipe that is
claimed to be brewed at the Whitbread Exchange Brewery.  It is a low
gravity (1.036) beer.  The problem is that it is, at this point, quite
cloudy.  The only difference between this and past brews is that the
recipe includes 10 torrified (i.e. rolled) wheat in the mash.

Question: has anyone brewing with rolled wheat found that it tends to
make the brew cloudy?  I do not THINK this is starch haze (though I am
afraid to say the I did not do an iodine test) as I gave it a nice
lengthy mash, and extraction rate was right on what I usually get.
- -- 
	> Cushing Hamlen, Client Services	|	cush at msc.edu
	> Minnesota Supercomputer Center, Inc.	|	612/337-3505

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Date: Mon, 20 Jun 1994 11:15:18 -0500
From: rnarvaez at lan.mcl.bdm.com
Subject:  Hangover cure!!!

Well I think I have finally found the cure for hangovers. In
the "Joy of home brewing" Papizian has a section on the
effects of alcohol on your system. In this section it says
that the alcohol robs your body of vitamin B complex.
Therefor if you take a good dose of  vitamin B complex
(found at most health food stores) before going to bed
along with a large glass of water you should not wake up
too hungover.
Last weekend was my 29th birthday and I brewed a batch
of Goat Scrotum Ale to party with. The brew was
prepared as per the recipe except I added more dry
extract than called for to increase to kick of the brew.
Well the beer was great and I drank and drank and drank
some more. Boy did I get a good feeling from all this beer.
Before I went to bed I took 3 Vitamins and 2 Tylenol
geltabs with 32 oz of water. When I got up I took a hot
shower and then ate a good breakfast. Well I didn't have
any headache, upset stomach, or that tired feeling. I am
not one to drink to excess that often but the next time I do
I will repeat this cure and see if it works as well again. Has
anyone else tried this or something that works just as well.
I know that the best way to avoid a hangover is not to
drink too much, but there is always those few times when
the beer just tastes sooooo good.

Ronald Narvaez
RNarvaez at lan.mcl.bdm.com

Never take life too seriously, it isn't a permanent thing. : )


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Date: Mon, 20 Jun 94 11:47:44 EDT
From: U-E68882-John Bloomberg <bloomberg_john at ae.ge.com>
Subject: Where to start....

I have to agree with djfitzg at vnet.ibm.com (hb1454) that Ilkka Sysil
is way out of line with THESES 1-4.

Where does someone interested in homebrewing start?  Is the beginner
not allowed to start a batch of beer until he/she has mastered all 
grain brewing, water chemistry, yeast metabolism, etc....?

It is exactly this kind of snobbery that drives beginners out of 
the hobby or makes them unlikely to post a question on HBD for fear
of getting blasted.  I am sick-and-tired of the "If it isn't all-grain
it isn't worthy of making, drinking, discussing" attitude.

John Bloomberg
bloomber at c0368.ae.ge.com


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Date: Mon, 20 Jun 94 8:59:24 MDT
From: npyle at hp7013.ecae.stortek.com
Subject: Malt liquor / Dry hopping / Flamebait

Philip Gravel writes:

>Malt liquors have a higher alcohol content than beers.  Apparently some
>regulations require that the alcohol content not exceed some level in order
>to be called a beer.  Hence the need for the name "malt liquor".

Spoken like a true BATF spokesperson.  Malt liquor is a regulatory term,
which has nothing to do with beer, really.  You can't tell me that
Dopplebocks and Barley Wines and other Strong Ales are not beer.  The law
can make people put silly names on beer labels (note Celis Pale Bock, which
is a pale ale, not at all a bock) but there is no "need".  The logic is
right along the lines of breweries who are not allowed to put nutritional
information on the labels, or even the alcohol content.

**

Keith Prader, the Hops FAQ has some information on dry hopping, and even a
mention on hop teas.  IMNSHO, hop teas represent finish hopping, as the hops
are heated, as opposed to dry hopping where the hops are left "cold".  Adding
a hop tea, like dry hopping, leaves much more hop aroma in the beer than
finish hopping, as the tea (or dry hops) is added after primary fermentation
is complete (well, it SHOULD BE...).  This prevents CO2 action from scrubbing
the aroma out of the beer.  Check out the Hops FAQ in the archive.

On the same subject, Steven Gruber writes:

>..............................  What's nice about dry-hopping is that the
>oils from the hops actually add a layer of protection against oxydation
>during the fermentation process.

I have to say I've never heard of hops doing anything to help with oxidation.
In fact, hop compounds are one of the things in beer which are quite
susceptible to oxidation.  And, during fermentation, oxidation is not an
issue because of the CO2 action, which pushes out oxygen.  I like dry
hopping, but it has nothing to do with oxidation, et. al.

**

The recent "Thesis" on the Digest is flamebait, plain and simple.  Please
don't reply to this junk, except via direct email to the sender.

Cheers,
Norm

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Date: Mon, 20 Jun 1994 09:09:58 PDT
From: John Horzepa (via RadioMail) <jhorzepa at radiomail.net>
Subject: Party Pig results

A few weeks ago I posted my first experience w/ the Party Pig (basically, 2.25
gallons of pure foam) and asked for suggestions.  The overwhelming response was
to cut way back on my priming rate.  I tried this method on a pale ale, using
1/4 cup of malt extract for the beer put into the pig and waited about 10 days
to try it.  This time, the beer came out a bit on the flat side, but certainly
drinkable.  Of course, with the heat wave we've been having here in the
northeast, anything cold is drinkable.

My feeling is that the Party Pig is a viable beer dispenser, it just looks like
some experimenting is required to get the priming rate down.

john

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Date: Mon, 20 Jun 1994 09:19:48 -0700 (PDT)
From: Jeff Frane <gummitch at teleport.com>
Subject: Keg Ownership

Louis K. Bonham wrote:

> 
> While I can certainly understand the economic
> arguments made by these individuals, from a legal standpoint
> (and I am an attorney), I have serious doubts as to their
> accuracy, at the very least under Texas law. I find nothing
> in either the Texas Penal Code or the Texas Alcoholic
> Beverage Code that would make this a crime, or would limit
> the apparent authority a distributor or retailer to pass 
> legal title to a keg to a purchaser; indeed, I can
> think of several doctrines that a person can acquire legal
> title (a/k/a ownership) of a keg *regardless* of what's
> written on the keg or what the brewery may want or have in
> its contracts with its distributors.

Well I am not (thank goodness) an attorney, but I think there are two
issues.  One is simply moral (I will refrain from lawyer cracks): the
kegs are *clearly* the property of the person/company who paid for them
by buying them either from the manufacturer or another brewery. 

Secondly, your "purchaser" is purchasing the *beer*, not the keg.  It's
a very clear contract; when you buy the beer, you pay a deposit on the
keg.  You do NOT buy the keg, primarily because the distributor doesn't
own it in the first place.

I have no doubt that a lawyer could make a good case for something else
- -- that's what lawyers are for, apparently.  But *anyone* with the
ability to differentiate between right and wrong can see who really owns
the keg.

- --Jeff



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Date: Mon, 20 Jun 94 10:42:01 MDT
From: Rick Myers <rcm at col.hp.com>
Subject: Re: Propane Cookers
Full-Name: Rick Myers

> >I've seen two brands of big cookers in local discount stores, the
> >170,000 BTU King Kooker, and a 140,000 BTU cooker from Camp Chef (#SH-140L).
> >Any pros or cons about these?
> 
> One negative comment I have heard about these kinds of burners is the
> lack of adjustment control on the flame.  Either they are on full or if
> you try to throttle them, you get a yellow, sooty flame.  Someone (I can't

I own a "King Cooker" brand, and it is fully adjustable.  There is a
gas regulator knob, as well as an air mixture control "shutter".  The
flame stays nice and blue at ANY setting.  It works GREAT!

Rick "No, I don't work for King Cooker" Myers

- --
Rick Myers  (rcm at col.hp.com)
Information Technology Specialist
Hewlett-Packard Test & Measurement Organization Information Technology
Colorado Springs, CO

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Date: Mon, 20 Jun 94 11:07:47 
From: david.moeny at bcsinfo.bcs.org
Subject: AGING MEAD & RECIPE R


Hello everyone,

I've got a couple of questions that I hope you enlightened ones can answer.  

First, I'm in the middle of a batch of mead and want to age it over oak.  Any
suggestions on how to do this without introducing nasties into the mix?

Second, one of the few beers my finace and I both like is the Sam Adams Honey
Porter (no flames please.  I only live 5 blocks away from the brewery.  Can you
say free samples?).  Anyway, anyone out there have a recipe which approaches
this brew? 

Private e mail is ok and I'll post a summary for everyone. 

TIA

Dave   (overheating in Boston)

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Date: Mon, 20 Jun 1994 10:05:17 -0700 (PDT)
From: James Thompson <sirjames at u.washington.edu>
Subject: Extract Fumes in Hades


Fellow Extract Brewers,

Judging from HBD#1454 it may be too late, but:  PLEASE do NOT flame Ilkka 
Sysil about the legitimacy of extract brewing in this forum; do what I 
did -- send him a personal, respectful-yet-firm, response directly.  We 
don't need to waste space on this non-issue.  May thy fuming 
fulminations find fitter home in hottest Hades, but no more flame 
wars here, please.  (Gee, but I do love alliteration!)  Thanks!  

Jim Thompson
sirjames at u.washington.edu
UW School of Law
Seattle, Washington



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Date: Mon, 20 Jun 94 11:11:19 MDT
From: pjd at craycos.com (Phil Duclos)
Subject: SNPA - missing date codes?


	I bought a 6-pack of Sierra Nevada Pale Ale last week to use as
a starter for my latest batch of beer. I normally check the data code
on the bottles I buy to insure that I get young, healthy yeast. The
bottles I bought last week did not have a date code on them. I checked
around town and NO bottles here have the date code on them.

	I used the dregs of two of the bottles in a starter last Wednesday. 
By Friday I had no active fermentation. I added a third on Friday
morning and shook up a keg from my last batch and used some of that in 
the starter as well. By Saturday I had an active starter.

	What happened to the date codes on SNPA bottles? Is the yeast still
viable?

	I have always liked being able to determine the age (and potential
condition) of SNPA by reading the date codes. I am disappointed that it
seems to have gone away. Does anyone know the real story behind this?

phil duclos
pjd at craycos.com
pjd at clouds.com


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Date: Mon, 20 Jun 94 12:26:38 -0500
From: jeff_sargent at il.us.swissbank.com (Jeff Sargent)
Subject: Canning wort may be toxic?

I recently canned 12 pint-jars of sterile starter wort using the  
procedure described in Dave Miller's "Brewing the World's Great  
Beers". Basically you:

1) boil wort for 15 mins
2) fill the pint jars
3) put lids on BUT DON'T TIGHTEN THE LIDS.
4) partially immerse jars in water, boil for 30 mins in brewpot
5) finger-tighten lids down, put away.

My wife read a book on canning that emphasized canning in a pressure  
cooker for certain classes of fruits because of the possibility of  
nasty (fatal) bacteria living thru the experience and growing in your  
preserves.  Apparently the higher heat of the pressure cooker can  
kill these bacteria.

I believe the breakdown of safe/unsafe fruit depended on how acidic 

they were.

Should I worry about my starters?  Should I be using a pressure  
cooker?  Can the children be saved?

 - Jeff
sargent at il.us.swissbank.com


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Date: Tue, 21 Jun 1994 03:25:36 +0930 (CST)
From: zoz at cs.adelaide.edu.au (Final Premonition)
Subject: Hop pellet storage

Howdy...

Went to the homebrew shop today and bought the raw materials for my next
triple batch, but just realised that I won't have time to brew because it
will be ready for bottling just after I leave to go overseas (to the US, no
less!) and by the time I get back it will probably be too late.  So, just
wondering if the hop pellets I bought (Northern Brewer, Fuggles, Clusters,
Williamette, Hallertauer) will last OK where they are now (in my freezer).
No ill effects I hope?  Also, should I bother leaving the malt extract
(Munton's LME and generic DME) in the fridge or not?  Thanks,
- --
                            zoz at cs.adelaide.edu.au

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Date: Mon, 20 Jun 1994 14:09:43 -0400 (EDT)
From: BUKOFSKY <sjb8052 at minerva.cis.yale.edu>
Subject: Wyeast London


I recently was brewing a English-style pale ale, dry hopped with East 
Kent Goldings, and I was thinking of using Wyeast London Ale yeast for 
the first time.  Several friends, whom I usually trust in these issues, 
warned me away from this yeast, saying it tastes very odd and I wouldn't 
like it.  The description says it is "woody with a slight diacetyl 
production", which sounds good to me.  Has anyone had good success with 
this yeast?  Is there a commercial beer it can be likened to?  Would it 
go well in a highly-hopped pale ale?  Any info on the good or bad 
qualities of this yeast would be appreciated.

 -Scott

No cute comment.

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Date: 20 Jun 94 15:16:47 EDT
From: "Glenace L. Melton" <71242.2275 at CompuServe.COM>
Subject: On Ilkka moor bot hat!

If it looks like beer, fizzes like beer, and tastes like beer, it's beer.
Who needs a feminazi definition to set everybody "straight."
[END]



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Date: 20 Jun 94 15:26:16 EDT
From: "Glenace L. Melton" <71242.2275 at CompuServe.COM>
Subject: Aflatoxins

Now that the correct spelling has been established, can anyone tell me how
common aflatoxins are in mouldy barley, wheat, and oats? How stable are
they under heating conditions? In particular, does roasting the malt made
with *some* mouldy grains destroy the aflatoxins? In my experience malt
that smells a little bit mouldy will smell OK after drying and roasting to
a medium brown or more. If there is still some aflatoxin will it be
destroyed in a good, long boil? My encyclopedia and Merck's Manual are
silent on this issue.
[END]



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Date: Mon, 20 Jun 94 15:45:07 EDT
From: terfintt at ttown.apci.com (Terri Terfinko)
Subject: Grape Aroma


     I just racked an all grain batch of pale ale this weekend. 
When I took a sample of the wort it had a grape skin aroma and 
a slightly bitter taste.  It did not have much of a malty flavor.
When I mashed this batch I  monitored the sparging process very
closely.  I infusion mashed at 150f, sparged with 170F water 
down to a gravity of 1.020.  The wort tasted sweet and malty at 
this point, no grainy or astringency detected.  I am assuming this 
aroma has developed as a result of fermentation.  Fermentation 
details are: 7 days at 72f with Wyeast British Ale yeast from a 
starter.  I am trying to problem solve and have a few theories:

1.  The trub has not fully separated from the wort and this is 
causing the aroma and bitterness.

2.  The mash temp was too low and created mostly fermentable
sugars which did not leave any dextrins to carry the malty flavors.

3.  I have an infection which caused the off flavor.  I do follow 
stringent sanitation procedures, and doubt that this is the 
problem.

     This is becoming frustrating since I have successfully brewed 
many all grain batches and the last 3 batches have been riddled 
with low malt flavor and too much bitterness.  I have been 
brewing extract batches as a control check, they come out fine.  It 
seems that when I changed my process of pouring the wort from 
brew kettle to fermentor through a strainer to siphoning from the 
brew kettle and leaving more hot/cold break behind, my all grain 
batches went down hill.  Could I be leaving some needed
yeast nutrients behind, and the unhappy yeasts are giving me 
unhappy beer?  Any advise would be appreciated. 

Terry Terfinko  -  terfintt at ttown.apci.com

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Date: Mon, 20 Jun 1994 15:56:18 -0400 (ADT)
From: David Rodger <drodger at access.digex.net>
Subject: Thanks for beginner's technique responses

Hi -

I'd just like to thank everyone (over 20 people!) who replied to my 
request for help on technique.  The overwhelming majority said, "You're 
only letting your beer ferment for 3-5 days before bottling?!?  *That's* 
the problem!"

So, my next batch is comfortably sitting in a carboy for a while.  We'll 
see how that goes.

Additionally, most people told me not to bother with trub removal; I'm 
not sure if that was due to it being a minor step, compared to the other 
mistakes I'm making :) or whether it's perceived as unnecessary in general.

Finally, several people pointed out that I shouldn't strain (not sparge) 
my wort until after it's been cooled, to prevent Hot Side Aeration.  Is 
this mentioned in either Miller's The Complete Handbook or Papazain's The 
New Complete Guide?  (Unfortunately, the advice came too late for my most 
recent batch, but I'll try it from now on and see what happens.)

Anyway, thanks to all for the advice!
 
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------
David Rodger
drodger at access.digex.net

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Date: Mon, 20 Jun 94 16:03:54 EDT
From: HOMEBRE973 at aol.com
Subject: Ilkka's thesis

djfirtzg at vnet.ibm.com  criticizes Ilkka's thesis which thinks stinks and
then goes on to equate that with his beer.  I don't necessarily agree with
Ilkka's thesis but he makes great beer!!

Andy Kligerman


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End of HOMEBREW Digest #1455, 06/21/94