FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Rob Gardner, Digest Janitor


Contents:
  Keg Crimes #4 -- OK, 1 more! (Louis K. Bonham)
  Harvesting Yeast Dregs (Wit beer) (Spencer.W.Thomas)
  Re: Kegging without fridge (David S. Burlage)
  Cleaning Copper; Lauter and Mash Tuns ("Palmer.John")
  Re: St. Pats (Jon Higby)
  Outdoor Brewing and Light Exposure (Ken Schroeder)
  filters (Jack Schmidling)
  Grolsch Thanks / SG Math Question (Lee Hiers)
  Beer Label Program? ("Corey W. Janecky")
  New Belgium yeast (John Landreman X1786)
  Malt Mills (Terri Terfinko)
  sake making (Jim Dipalma)
  Stove Top Full Volume Boils (Haber Justin )
  Carboy Question ("Bill Knecht")
  Grain Mills/Perfect Pale Ale/0.5 barrel FAQ/Bud Light Ads (Teddy Winstead)
  THE BEER CHANNEL (stan kulikowski ii)
  Bread From Beer (Liana Winsauer)
  Low Mash Temperatures (McKee Smith)
  Chili beers... (m.bryson2)
  Re: kegging without a fridge and lager yeast questions (Aidan "Krausen Kropping Kiwi" Heerdegen)
  Headspace & (over)carbonation (pittock)
  yabpq - Yet Another BrewPub Question (Guy Mason)
  bottle filling and carbonation (cush)
  Great Taste of the Midwest sellout !! (brewing chemist Mitch)
  Red Dog and Alt (Sean MacLennan)


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----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Wed, 29 Jun 1994 08:40:44
From: lkbonham at beerlaw.win.net (Louis K. Bonham)
Subject: Keg Crimes #4 -- OK, 1 more!

I'm still being flooded with questions on this issue, and a number
of interesting points have been raised lately on the HBD regarding
this issue.  So, to keep things moving . . . . 

(1) rjl of Viking Brewing recently posted the following information
and thoughts: 

>BATF requires the brewer to mark the kegs with the plant address
>the beer came from (exactly).(see 27CFR25) I assume from the regulations
>that if a brewer filled someone elses keg that they could get in a heap 'o
>trouble from BATF. 

Absolutely correct.  That's the purpose of the keg labeling laws
(both state and federal) -- they allow the regulators to keep an
audit trail of where the beer came from and whether tax was paid
on it.

>Anyway, the brewer buys kegs and has their ID imprinted
>on it in an indelible way. They DO NOT TRANSFER TITLE to that keg to the
>wholesaler of retailer when those entities purchase the contents. That
>keg belongs to the brewer untill such time as the brewer sells that keg
>to someone else. If the Jeweler analogy turns out to be true, then I suspect
>that there will be a substantial number of law suits against the retail
>segment of the industry started or a least some serious education going on
>soon.

Agreed that the brewery-distributor contract probably contains
written language regarding title to the kegs.  However, it
does not obviate the apparent ability of the distributor to
pass title to the kegs -- distributors routinely dispose of
unclaimed ("abandoned") kegs, and thus I submit that from this
fact and the "implicit sale of a container" analysis previously
discussed, the distributor is sufficiently in the business of
selling kegs to pass title.  Thus, I believe that the jeweler
hypothetical is applicable. 

What's the solution?  If you're a brewer and don't want to lose
your kegs, police your distributor.  If they are having
trouble with their customers not returning the kegs, suggest
that they utilize a form contract with the customer that explicitly
states that the keg is being rented and that no title passes.

(2) Cornelius kegs and abandoned property

A number of astute observers have noted that the keg issue is also
presented by Cornelius kegs, which typically are marked "Property of
Coca-Cola Bottling Co." or the like.  Are you in trouble?  No
(unless you're really stealing them). Regardless of what's stamped
on the kegs, the owner can lose title to them (as with any personal
property) by "abandoning" them.  That's what typically happens with
Cornelius kegs -- the soft drink companies are going away from
using them and just aren't bothering to pick them up or follow up
when they aren't returned. Moreover, I've been informed that the
soft drink companies themselves are selling their cornelius kegs as
surplus or scrap, and thus it appears that they are not interested
in them anymore. 

(3) state laws on limited deposits

A number of folks have noted that some states put an absurdly low
limit on keg deposits, and have asked what the impact of this is
on my analysis.  I'd have to look at the law in question, but I
suspect that such a law probably contains language that would make
the keg transaction in those states a rental as a matter of law. 
Question: if the result of these laws is a large amount of kegs
staying in backyards, etc., how long do the breweries /
distributors have to reclaim them before they are considered
abandoned (and therefore fair game)?  Answer will also be
dependent on the state law in question.  Anybody got a cite or can
u/l me the text of the statute? 


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Date: Wed, 29 Jun 94 10:28:31 EDT
From: Spencer.W.Thomas at med.umich.edu
Subject: Harvesting Yeast Dregs (Wit beer)

We recently made a batch of Wit beer with 5 yeasts.  4 of these were
originally cultured from bottles.  A quick run-down in order of
preference (most preferred first).  This is from memory, as Dan has
the score sheets.

Blanche de Bruges:	Very nice when young, a bit bready, spices and
			orange come through nicely.  Got less
			interesting after a couple of months in
			bottle, but still very good.

Dentergem:		More phenolic, a bit smoky, bready, spice
			accented, orange subdued, complex.  Very nice.

Hoegaarden:		Very fruity, orange accent, spice in
			background.  No phenolics.

Steendonk:		Very phenolic at first, this receded with some
			bottle age, but still one to avoid if you
			dislike phenolics.  Not bad after 3 months,
			but definitely not my first choice.

I believe the new YeastLab Belgian White yeast is from the Blanche de
Bruges culture.

Most of these yeasts seem to be temperature sensitive, slowing down
considerably below about 68-70F.

=Spencer in Ann Arbor

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Date: Wed, 29 Jun 1994 10:36:37 -0400
From: bq240 at cleveland.Freenet.Edu (David S. Burlage)
Subject: Re: Kegging without fridge

I keep my keg at room temp under 30 psi of CO2. My beer flows 
thru a fliter then into the cooling coils of a restaraunt-style
pop machine (hold glass under tap and it fills). The trick to 
dispensing is to do it slowly. I dispense at about 1 pint/minute.
Any faster and I get foam (not surprising). I would probably have
 to go even slower without the cooling coils, but I don't like
warm beer anywa. If you vent from 30 psi down to 8 or 10, that
 will cause foaming unless you do it VERY slowly (days).
So try dispensing very slowly. If you are not that patient, get
a refrigerator!

Good luck and keep on brewing!

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Date: 29 Jun 1994 08:23:44 U
From: "Palmer.John" <palmer at ssdgwy.mdc.com>
Subject: Cleaning Copper; Lauter and Mash Tuns

Hi Group,
Re: Cleaning Copper
What I do is go to the grocery store and get a bottle of White Distilled
Vinegar. This is almost pure diluted acetic acid. Cider vinegar might leave
behind a taste. Basically dump the vinegar into a sink, dilute with water so it
covers the chiller, leave it a minute, and your copper should be bright and
shiny. Give it a hot water rinse and you are ready to go.

Don't worry about the tubing length; whats the goal here? Chilling! So more
contact area is the key to more heat transfer. When I made my chiller, I
calculated how much volume I had in my boiling pot for the chiller, and then
calculated how many coils I could fit in that volume and that became my length.
Now that I am switching from a 5 gallon pot to a converted keg, the diameter is
different, as is the available volume, so I am going to make a new one. Copper
tubing is cheap.
**

I received several good responses to my question on Why Different Tuns and am
posting them because I think it will be of general interest.
The short answer, as I suspected, was the economy of scale. 
Russ pointed out:
 ...the whole field of Chemical Engineering deals with taking things 
that can be easily done in a lab and doing them in a large scale production. 
Home brewing is more like doing something in a lab environment where simpler, 
less automated procedures (that are impractical at a large scale) can be used 
to get good results.

The mashing and lautering process are different. It is often difficult and 
expensive to create a piece of equipment that is excellent a doing two 
different things...In general, it is easier to optimize a piece of equipment 
for a single task.

RJL(?) of Viking Brewery told me:
The Big Boys use seperate ones because of scale economies. The Big Scales
make savings of minutes worthwhile. Lauter Tuns are wider than they are deep
for efficiency, while Mash Tuns are about the same wide as they are deep
for a good mash. On a large scale the combo vessels don't work as well
as separate ones.

Lauter Tuns in the Big scale are one of three separate systems: False Bottom,
StrainMasters(tm) and Filters.

The False Bottom ones are more or less like the homebrew ones but much larger.
StrainMasters(tm) are rectangular tubs with tubes running thru them, thereby
creating a mini-lauter system around each tube. (Probably similar to manifolds?
 - JP) This is a very fast system. Filters are setup like a DE filter except
that they pump the grain into it rather than D.E. and use the grain as the
"filter" medium. I don't think the filter system is in great use.

So there you have it, more good background info on why we do how we do and why
They do how They do. Thanks for all the replies.
 -John Palmer MDA-SSD M&P
palmer at ssdgwy.mdc.com  

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Date: Wed, 29 Jun 94 10:11:32 CDT
From: unisql!jonh at cs.utexas.edu (Jon Higby)
Subject: Re: St. Pats

I've been watching the posting about St. Pats kegs. Being local to St. Pats
and a regular customer, I would like to provide some insight.

There were two bulk shipments of kegs to St. Pats. The number of orders from
their advertisements and posting to the HBD & rcb, way outpaced their
inventory. They had a line on another 1,000+ and bought them. By the time
they had finally got their second shipment, they were greatly back ordered
and have been swamped ever since. Points to keep in mind:

1.) They have wholesale orders for the kegs too (other homebrew shops for the
SAME price as you are paying). They place all customers ahead of their
wholesale orders!

2.) The price is/was more than good - in hindsight, it was too good. Consider
the price to be offset by the shipping delay (now, it wasn't planned that
way). If you need your kegs now, cancel your order and go to your local
homebrew supply store for them.

3.) There is a good bit of physical labor involved in shipping the kegs. This
includes pressure testing and packaging (taping the kegs together). It
definitly takes longer to prepare kegs to be shipped than it does an
equivalent dollar amount of malt, yeast, hops, etc.

4.) Kegs are not their primary business. They do a huge mail-order volume of
supplies and equipment (both wholesale and retail). This part of the business
has to have priority over the shipment of the kegs.

5.) They do not (as someone implied) charge your creditcard before they ship
the kegs.

6.) Complaints in general:
You are buying used kegs. Complaints about syrup still being inside, the
outside having scratches, small dents, being taped together when shipped, etc
are ridiculious. If you want a perfect keg, go buy a new one for $100 plus
instead of $11! In most homebrew shops, you can't buy a 5 gallon glass
carboy for $11! Complaints about the lack of an 800 toll-free number -
how do you think homebrew shops pay for that service (hint - they don't
just pay it out of their own pocket!)??

Given the overwhelming response, the complaints, the general hassle - I
don't expect they will ever offer this kind of deal again. I can't blame
them. I visited and talked with them this past Saturday (6/25). At that
time they said they were close to being caught-up in the keg shipments.

I have absolutely no ties (financial or other) to St. Patricks. I have just
come to be good friends with the owners and have had long, open discussions
with them on everything (including the kegs). They are fine, honest people
attempting to deal (as best they can) with the overwhelming response to the
kegs.

Send any flames to /dev/null, I don't care to see them.


Jon
- -- 
Jon Higby  ----   UniSQL, Inc.   ----   email: unisql!jonh at cs.utexas.edu
Denial clause: Prices subject to change w/o notice, actual milage may vary.
Fat-free, high fiber, tastes great. If you've read this far, you must be
looking for this: Any opinions I expressed are just that - my opinions.

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Date: Wed, 29 Jun 94 09:13:50 PDT
From: kens at lan.nsc.com (Ken Schroeder)
Subject: Outdoor Brewing and Light Exposure

I brew in cut kegs outdoors. With the recent postings on light and
hop aroma I have become curious. With hops in the boil for up to one
hour, will this alter my aroma? I boil without a lid on the boil tun,
exposing the hopped wort to the sun's photons. I cover the boil tun
when I'm cooling the wort off. I am able to produce medium to good nose
and haven't noticed any skunk aroma (Many types of beer, usually with
high hop rates  8-) ). Whats going on here? I don't see any need to change
my proceedure unless there is an obvious reason to.

Also, my (future) wife never seems to brew enough wort to fill two five
gallon kegs (I bought them, they are mine, er, ours!). I have insitsted
that she fill one close to the top and as much of the second as possible,
usually about half way (got to save on fridge space). Many times the 
second keg, filled about half way, has carbonation problems. Usually 
it foams a lot. It forced carbonated the same way as the other keg,
which comes out o.k.. Can anybody help? Please don't suggest that she brews
a full 10 gallons, she likes how she brews won't accept that suggestion (at
least from me).

Private email is great, to: kens at lan.nsc.com  If something substantial comes 
up, I'll post. TIA

Hoppy Brewing
Ken Schroeder 

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Date: Wed, 29 Jun 94 11:16 CDT
From: arf at genesis.mcs.com (Jack Schmidling)
Subject: filters

 
 >From: Jim Busch <busch at daacdev1.stx.com>
 
 >Jack, are you admitting to having bacteria in your beers? And at levels that
 are present after submicron filtration?
 
 Yes.  No.
 
 First of all, I will bet my fortune that neither you nor anyone else can send 
 me a bottle of bacteria free beer.
 
 Secondly, you really need to take a reading comprehension course.  Nothing I 
 have ever said could lead to your last remark.  The whole message I was 
 presenting is that cheap filters do not do what one (you) want to believe 
 they do.  The fact is that lots of big stuff passes through a .5 micron 
 filter and the less sophisticated the filter, the more there is that gets 
 through.  You even quoted the "high efficiency" hype of one supplier.  
 Clearly, whatever is between the efficency spec and 100% is what passes 
 through.
 
 >I think something is amiss in technique if submicron filtration is not
 resulting in a brilliant, clear product.
 
 You can think all you want but I live in the real world and I do what works.
 
 >  The Filter stores 5 micron , high efficiency product will result in a very 
 clear beer when properly used.
 
 Very clear is a subjective term and as I said, I did not use it and went for 
 the .5 after experience with other filters.
 
 >To do this correctly, one needs to cold condition the beer, and push the
 beer through the filter at reasonable delivery pressure, say 5-10 psi.
 
 That seems sort of obvious.
 
 >It should also be noted that some taste panels have preferred unfiltered
 pasteurized beers over the same sample that was submicron filtered (article
 by Jim Koch, in the Brewery Planner).
 
 Some people like meat in their beer.  So what?  
 
 >Comparing string wound filters to pleated ones is a waste of time. 
 
 How can you possibly say that?
 
 A major supplier of homebrew filter systems sells string wound filters. I 
 bought one of them and was unable to get results that were worth the effort.  
 I ran the tests to prove that the .5 micron string wound is no better than 
 the others and again to determine if the one from the Filter Store was any 
 better. I learned what I wanted to know and for you to tell me it was a waste 
 of time is pretty silly.  Furthermore, I published the results of my test and 
 probably saved lots of other folks from making the same mistake.
 
 
 >I guess corn starch is a good test if one if removing permenant starch
 haze from a poorly made beer.  I wonder how much this starch level has
 to do with anything found in regular beer samples.
 
 The object was to have an easily visible and quantifiable check on the 
 filters, not to simulate a typical beer.
 
 >From: "Palmer.John" <palmer at ssdgwy.mdc.com>
 
 >Which left me thinking that most brewerys I have toured have
 seperate tuns for mashing and lautering, while most homebrewers (well, >33%)
 using the same tun for Mashing/Lautering with very good results and, it seems
 to me, better economics of time. Obviously, there must be a good reason for
 having seperate tuns.
 
 Perhaps they have not heard of the MICROMASHER (tm)?
 
 >Would anyone be able to offer some insight into why large(r) scale breweries
 use the seperate tuns?
 
 One reason for large operations is so they can be mashing the next batch 
 while lautering the last.  But then again... with the MM, it wouldn't matter 
 if you had two of them.  I think the answer is they don't know any better. 
 
 js
 
 p.s.  That last remark was FLAMEBAIT (tm).
 
 jjs
 
 

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Date: Wed, 29 Jun 94 11:31 EST
From: Lee Hiers <0006701840 at mcimail.com>
Subject: Grolsch Thanks / SG Math Question

Thanks to everyone for the answers to my Grolsch bottle question.  The
responses are 7 to 1 in favor of them over regular returnables.  None of 
the respondents who actually use them dislike them - quite the contrary,
they all seem to be confirmed flip-top users.  I got ahold of a few and am
trying them out.

////////////////////////////////

Could someone help me with my math?

I ended up with 55 gallons in the carboy at an SG of 1.048.  The volume of
the boiling wort before dilution was 2 gallons.  Does this mean that the
SG of the wort was 1.120 before dilution?  Actually, I guess the math part
is easy, I just don't know if I understand the dilution effect on SG.

The equation I used was:

          5gal * 1.048 = 2gal * SG + 3gal * 1.000

Does that make sense, or is my logic flawed?

There you go - a newbie question not scared off by extract vs. all-grain spats!

Private Email to the mathematically challenged is OK!

TIA

Lee Hiers
aa4ga at mcimail.com

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Date: Wed, 29 Jun 94 12:15:20 CST  
From: "Corey W. Janecky" <cjanecky at facstaff.wisc.edu>
Subject: Beer Label Program?

Does anyone know of any shareware programs out there that will help to make
beer labels?  I'm not very artistic so just using some type of drawing
program won't help too much.  Any ideas are appreciated.

I recently ftp'd "brewart_.hqx" from sierra.stanford.edu in hopes that this
would help me out.  But, now that I have it, what is it?  What in the heck
is an *.hqx file?  I've never seen a hqx file before.

Thanks in advance,

Corey Janecky
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Beer, its not just for breakfast anymore!

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx


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Date: Wed, 29 Jun 1994 10:35:17 MDT
From: John Landreman X1786 <jlandrem at atmel.com>
Subject: New Belgium yeast

In HBD 1462 Norm wrote

>They bottle condition their Abbey and Trippel (OK, I gave it away) for 15
>days, I believe, with a yeast that is different from the fermentation yeast.
>Why, because of the high alcohol content?  No, so you (that's you, the
>homebrewer) can't steal their proprietary yeast (at least that's what the
>tourguide told me!).

Jeff Lebesch, the brewmaster from New Belgium Brewing Company, gave a talk on 
Belgian beers at the National Homebrewers Conference. The transcript from his 
talk states the following concerning his Abbey beer.

"We remove most of the fermentation yeast, and redose with a better flocculating
yeast for bottle conditioning. Some cells of the Abbey strain make it into the
bottle, but it would be like looking for a needle in a haystack to find one."

Cheers,
John Landreman
Colorado Springs, Co

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Date: Wed, 29 Jun 94 13:49:32 EDT
From: terfintt at ttown.apci.com (Terri Terfinko)
Subject: Malt Mills


     I am planning to upgrade my Corona malt mill to a roller style 
mill.  Currently I have the Corona powered by a 1/4 HP electric 
motor that is belt driven by a 1 inch pulley on the motor and
a 12 inch pulley on the mill.  This gives a nice speed for milling.  I 
also built a hopper attachment that allows me to dump in 10 
pounds of grain.  This setup allows me to take care of other tasks 
while the milling is going on.  
     I am interested in knowing if the available roller style mills can 
be adapted to this same setup.  Are there any manufacturers that
discourage motorizing their mills?  Any success stories?

Terry Terfinko - terfintt at ttown.apci.com

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Date: Wed, 29 Jun 94 14:43:50 EDT
From: dipalma at sky.com (Jim Dipalma)
Subject: sake making


    Hi All,

    I've become interested in trying my hand at making some sake. After much
searching, I finally located a suitable quantity of short grain rice. It
seems to be hard to come by here on the East coast. In Eckhardt's book, he
mentions "polishing" the rice. I was curious as to how other sake makers
are accomplishing this, and would appreciate any advice.

    Also, if there are any sake makers in the New England area that know
where short grain rice can be obtained, please let me know.

     TIA,
     Jim

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Date:  Wed, 29 Jun 1994 15:12:21 -0400
From: Haber Justin <Justin.Haber at gtegsc3.sprint.com>
Subject:  Stove Top Full Volume Boils




<<<<<< Attached TEXT file follows >>>>>>
Brewmavens:

	I am considering going to full volume boils, but am 
daunted by the cash outlay for both a large SS pot and a 
propane cooker, so wish to do it piece-meal.  My question 
regards the feasibility of using my stove for full volume boils.  
 - Knowing the BTU rating of my (gas) stove, how can I 
calculate the time to reach boil?  
 - Are there those of you out there who use kitchen stoves for 
full volume boils, and if so have you any comments or advice?

TIA,
Justin Haber
justin.haber at gtegsc3.sprint.com		


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Date: Wed, 29 Jun 94 16:40:46 CDT
From: "Bill Knecht" <knecht at mind.psych.umn.edu>
Subject: Carboy Question

Can anyone out there tell me what is the maximum temperature of water that
a "regular" empty glass carboy can absorb without breaking?  This isn't the
kind of experiment I feel like conducting myself, but doubtless someone
knows from accidental experience or hearsay.

Also, is there any such thing as a Pyrex (or equivalent) 5 gal. vessel,
and if so, would I have to mortgage my house to buy one, or what?

Bill Knecht

 ....................................................................
 .^^^^^^^^^^^^^^  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^.
 .           William Knecht  (knecht at mind.psych.umn.edu)            .
 .       ...and now for your randomly-selected quotation...         .
 ....................................................................

   "Man is the only animal that can remain on friendly terms with the
    victims he intends to eat until he eats them."
           Samuel Butler

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Date: Wed, 29 Jun 1994 16:22:12 -0500 (CDT)
From: winstead%brauerei at cs.tulane.edu (Teddy Winstead)
Subject: Grain Mills/Perfect Pale Ale/0.5 barrel FAQ/Bud Light Ads

Hi there.  I'd like to summarize some of the replies that I got in
response to my query about building a grain mill -- I got two replies
from people who had modified Atlas pasta makers to make grain mills.
The advantages of this approach are that the rollers are adjustable,
the thing is all stainless steel, and it's got a nice handle built in
already.  Essentially, all you'd have to do is to put some grooves on
the rollers, and build some kind of hopper.  The downside of this is
that the machine costs about $40-$50.

Another reply that I got was from somebody who was modifying a
conveyor-belt end roller into one side of the mill and using a large
pipe for the other half of the rollers.

Considering the amount that I'd personally have to spend on all the
parts (having to buy everything new), it may be a good value to just
fork over 99 bucks to Schmidling.  I figure that all the parts to
build a reasonable clone of his mill would run me close to $70, plus
the time involved.  If you have a source for surplus parts or scrap, 
I'd encourage you to try this, but I'm not going to.

**********

I'm on a quest to build the perfect pale ale.  So far I've used a
variety of malts in various combinations, including chocolate,
different crystals, dextrine, different 2-row pale ale malts, and
most recently Caravienne (which is very interesting, but not really on
style).  What I'm trying to do is to make something like Pike Place
Pale Ale, or Santa Fe Pale Ale.  Anybody got any ideas? 

**********

I think that it might be a good idea to put together a 1/2 Barrel
Converted Keg FAQ.  I'd be willing to do all the work.  Anyone care to
offer any feedback on whether or not this would be a good idea?  I was
thinking that it could have sections on acquiring, design,
implementation, cost, commercial sources, etc...  I'd like to hear
what people think.

***********

Does anyone know if the AHA made a statement to Budweiser in regards
to their Bud Light ad?  I realize that there may be some conflict
here, since the AHA is part of the Ass. of Brewer's, which undoubtably
includes the evil Bud ones, but does anyone else think that something
should be said?  

As always, thanks in advance...

- -- 
Teddy Winstead                            Save The Net!  Mail-Bomb a Green
winstead%brauerei.uucp at cs.tulane.edu      Card Lawyer!  It's easy -- just
winstead at cs.tulane.edu                    type "mail [insert address] <
Fanatical Homebrewer                      /usr/local/bin/emacs"...


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Date:         Wed, 29 Jun 94 18:57:47 CDT
From: stan kulikowski ii <STANKULI at UWF.CC.UWF.EDU>
Subject:      THE BEER CHANNEL



  THE BEER CHANNEL          Sunday 26 Jun 94 21:00 CST satellite T1-3

  has anyone else seen this?  my satellite tuner was zapped by lightning
last week and has not been working well.  as a result i end up tuning
around strange places until i get its memory restored.  ran across this
last night.  some firm called "The Malt Vault" ran roughly half-hour
phone-in deals on beginners brewing equipment.  a man and a woman did
voice-overs, hawking their wares.  the guy is the same voice from
"satellite city" so it may be some related production.  i caught this on
vcr if anyone is interested in seeing the details.  here is what i
recall anyway.

    beginners basic kit   (regular $299)  $169

      the 7-gal white plastic fermenting tub, double lever capper, caps,
      bottles, siphon, strainer, brewing kettle (maybe), malt extract
      (your choice: light, amber, or dark). maybe some other stuff.
      oh yeah, a hot-line to call for help.

   mini home brewery      (regular $569)  $199

      19 pieces including everything in basic kit.  also jet bottle washer,
      6-gal glass carbouy, 80-bottle red plastic bottle tree, instructional
      video and book.  maybe there was a grain kit included for making your
      own malt (not sure).

       phone numbers:   800-652-6258     203-267-7627


  i believe they implied that if this merchandizing was successful, they
were considering a fulltime beer channel.  for the time being it seems to
be an irregular shopping feature.  you know how tv shopping channels--
call right now, the phones are ringing, these deals are for the next few
minutes, blah blah blah.   i assume if you call those numbers they will
sell you the stuff.   the $199 deal did not seem so bad for someone moving
up from beginner class, but then you would not need all the basic stuff
that is included.  they made a point of saying that they do not mail out
catalogues, you had to get your purchase information from the satellite.
i thought that strange.

  they showed a short video slip on how easy it is to make homebrew their
way.  like 8 steps, each showing what some simple action.  step 1: boiling
water in the kettle, dumping in a can of extract.  step 2: straining wort
into plastic tub.  step 3: the bubbler bubbling... and so on. they claim
it takes 10 days to make their beer.

  what bothered me is that their 8 easy steps never seemed to show any of
the work that goes into sterilizing the equipment.  that seems to me to be
80% of the labor in the process.  they did not give me the impression of
any advanced brewing knowledge here, just trying to sell the basic kits
at prices which seemed to be about average.  but still, if they ever move
up to 24-hr channel service, there might be times for more advanced product
information.
            stan

      .       now, the ocean aint whiskey
     ===      and i aint a duck                  stankuli at UWF.bitnet
     : :      so i'll play jack o diamonds
     ---      and trust to my luck
                          -- tex ritter

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Date: Wed, 29 Jun 1994 18:44:16 +0100
From: Liana Winsauer <lon at pshrink.chi.il.us>
Subject: Bread From Beer

LURKER DELURKING...

So you want to make bread with your beer dregs?  No problem.  Bread,
contrary to popular opinion, is as easy or easier than beer.  Time 
consuming (but not as much as beer), but easy.  If you've never tried 
making bread at all before, I suggest you make a few straight batches
before making it with beer yeast.

Following is the "normal" bread recipe I use, as adapted from 
Batty Cracker:
1 package active dry yeast (I use either Fleischman's or Red Star.
                            but not the extra-speedy)
1/4 cup warm water (warm toward hot, but not too hot for your comfort)
2 cups milk
2 tablespoons sugar
1 tablespoon butter or margarine
2 teaspoons of salt
5 3/4 to 6 1/4 cups of flour (all-purpose or bread, dosen't matter)

warm the milk, butter, and sugar (microwave) until the butter just starts
to melt, but don't get any warmer than you can keep your hand in for an 
extended period of time.  Meanwhile, dissolve the yeast in the warm water.
Mix the milk, etc with two cups (or so) of the flour, then mix in the 
yeast.  Add most of the remaining flour, and knead until moderately
stiff, adding flour as necessary.  (Amount of flour depends on humidity)
Butter a large bowl and the dough, then let rise till double, approx.
1 1/2 hours.  Punch down, split in half, shape into balls, then let rest
another 10 minutes.  While doing so, grease two "standard" bread pans.
Shape the dough into loaf shapes, butter, put in pans, and let rise again,
till almost double and above the pan edges, about 45 minutes.  Bake at
375 degrees F for 45 minutes, or until sound hollow when tapped.  Cover 
with foil about half way through.  All rising times are temperature 
dependant.

If you've never made bread before, read through the bread section of 
any good cookbook for all the details of how and why I left out.

I've made two batches of bread, using trub from a Christmas ale.  It
was slightly darker than normal, with the tiniest greenish tinge.  It
was good bread, with a slightly bitter, beerish (suprise suprise) 
flavor.  I cut out the water completely, and some of the milk, and 
used a cup of trub (You could change the proportions of what kinds of
liquids, but stick to the same overall total.  It rose very very very
slowly.  At first I thought I had gotten the milk too warm and killed 
off the yeasties, since beer yeast likes it cooler than bread yeast.  
The second time I didn't warm the milk at all, and kneaded the softened
margarine in.  For this method I make the dough before bed, punch down
in the morning, and bake in the afternoon/evening. 

I kept a jar of trub in a cheesecloth-covered mason jar for about a month
with no problems.  I checked it a couple months later and found a nifty 
mold colony.  

For bread from a bottle of beer, I think I would use the whole bottle's 
worth of beer as liquid (and rinse the bottle with milk to get the last
yeasty dregs) and definitely allow a whole day/night for rising.

There are beer bread mixes available that only require the addition
of a bottle of beer, mix, let sit a few minutes, and bake (quick 
breads).  The brand I had wasn't too bad.  I'd buy it again.

Well, I'm sure I've gone on far too long and could be accused of wasting
bandwidth.  I'll be glad to answer any questions I can.

Liana Winsauer
lon at pshrink.chi.il.us
 

 

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Date: Wed, 29 Jun 1994 23:03:38 -0400 (EDT)
From: McKee Smith <MCKSMI at delphi.com>
Subject: Low Mash Temperatures

   I am trying to do partial mashes for all of my batches now.  I am have 
a MAJOR problem with is temperature.  I have a converted Gott cooler, 
but I find it nearly impossible to get any mash temperature above 150.

   The batch I have working right now have about 3 pounds of grain.  I 
started with 1 gallon of water, using the 1 1/3 quart per pound of grain 
rate.  I raise the water to about 170 and mix it with the grain.  This 
raises the temp to about 128.  Fine for my mash in.

   Here is the problem, a gallon of boiling (my thermometer is a floating 
dairy model and only goes to 212) water will only raise the mash to 
about 145.  A second gallon of boiling water will raise it to about 150.  
Since I canUt boil more than about 3 1/2 gallons and still plan to put a 
fair amount of extract, I find I canUt even sparge very much or IUll have 
too much water.

   Even at the low mash temps, my mash does eventually convert, but 
the iodine test with my batches typically show mostly starch for two the 
two and a half hours.  What am I doing wrong?  

McKee Smith                          Phone:        (214) 721-1558
Irving, Texas, USA                   EMail:     Mcksmi at Delphi.com
                                     Compuserv:        71660,2747



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Date: Thu, 30 Jun 94 04:35:00 UTC
From: m.bryson2 at genie.geis.com
Subject: Chili beers...

   Since I am a relative newcomer to homebrewing( <20 batches), I
was hesitant to post this. However, with 18+ years in the foodservice
industry, I would like to caution you on the use of habaneros in
your beer- or anything else for that matter:
   Habaneros are approx. 40-50 times hotter than jalapenos, so
possibly 1-2 habaneros in the fermenter would be plenty to heat
up a 5 gal. batch of homebrew. Do NOT even think about putting
1 pepper/bottle; someone will suffer greatly. A person that I
worked with( and a lover of verrrry hot/spicy stuff) took one
bite of a habanero, spit it out, and still had to go to the
emergency room; missed a day of work, too. However, I realize
that telling someone to NOT do something is tantamount to
daring them to do it, so go ahead if you have some free time
to recover.
 
    I am still a novice, but I've had good success microwaving
the peppers I've bottled with to sterilize them; this reduces
the flavor loss you might get from boiling them. Good luck.

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Date: Thu, 30 Jun 94 15:36:27 EST
From: Aidan "Krausen Kropping Kiwi" Heerdegen <aidan at rschp2.anu.edu.au>
Subject: Re: kegging without a fridge and lager yeast questions
Full-Name: Aidan "Krausen Kropping Kiwi" Heerdegen

* Reid Grahamasked about Kegging without a fridge
* 
* I have recently taken the plunge into kegging and have a couple 
* questions for the keg gurus out there.

Not me .. I am a bewbie (beer newbie) too but I have some ideas.

* 1.  Am I crazy to be doing this with out a fridge? 

Don't think so.

* 2.  A fridge may be in the works, but in the mean time will I be 
* any more successful if I pop the keg in the freezer for a couple of 
* hours before dispensing?

Probably.  What about just buying a cheapo plastic garbage bin 
and shoving the keg+water+ice into it.  Wouldn't that do the 
trick? 

How do you cool the beer? (or is the temp you have now ok?)

I had an idea (that others have had before me) about running the 
beer through a copper coil (wort chiller perhaps?) which is 
immersed in a bucket of ice/water, to get it to dispensing temps.  

* Jay Lonner had some Lager yeast questions
* 
* I brewed my first-ever lager last weekend, and have some questions concerning
* what I consider to be an overlong lag time and a weak primary fermentation. 

I have just brewed my first lager too!

* I used WyEast's Czech Pils #2278 from a 1-quart starter in a 5-gallon batch.

Apparently you should be pitching more than that, was that all 
yeast slurry???  Someone mentioned something in the order of 1 
1/2 quarts.  

* chilled the wort (and the starter medium, to avoid temperature shock) to
* fermentation temperature (50 degrees) prior to pitching, and it took 5 days
* before I saw signs of active fermentation.  

I think (someone who is more experienced can correct me if I am 
wrong) that this is your problem.  Apparently you have to have 
the whole shebang pretty warm to start with to get the yeast 
going, and then slowly cool the primary down (someone mentioned 2 
degF per hour).  When I did mine it was sluggish too (well I 
thought it was - turns out the seal on my fermenter wasn'y tight 
enough so I didn't think it was fermenting) so I heated mine up 
to 20 degC to getit going and then panicked a little about not 
being able to cool it down fast enough - thoughts of a beer 
tasting like a chemistry experiment from all those esters!  

It has been happily burbling away for four days at 10 degC and 
has just sorta stopped.  I am going to rack to a secondary for a 
week or so (maybe dry-hop) and then bottle and lager the little 
buggers.  I still have a question about carbonation that no-one 
answered form my last post ...  will the yeast be active enough 
to carbonate the beer if it is at 4 degC or so ...  or should I 
carbonate first at 10 deg or so and then lager for a month??  

* TIA for any words of advice or clucks of sympathy.

	*cluck*

Aidan

- --
Aidan Heerdegen				
e-mail: aidan at rschp2.anu.edu.au


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Date: Thu, 30 Jun 1994 21:53:26 +1000
From: pittock at rsbs8.anu.edu.au
Subject: Headspace & (over)carbonation


>*--Ed Hitchcock---ech at ac.dal.ca----* writes:
[snip! Gunk on partial pressures]
>	And speaking of headspace, Erik Speckman goes on to say:
>>The volume of CO2 in the beer depends solely on pressure of CO2 in the
>>bottle and temperature.  All headspace does is allow the bottle to absorb a
>>greater volume of CO2 for a given increase in pressure.  This will mean
>>that it takes *longer* to reach a given level of carbonation with a large
>>headspace.
[snip!]
>>In this case, larger headspace may actually lead to a lower level of
>>carbonation after reactant/product equalibrium is reached beacuse it
>>absorbs a larger volume of the total CO2 produced.
>
>	Which sounds great, but doesn't explain the commonly observed
>phenomenon of overfiled bottles being undercarbonated and underfilled
>bottles being overcarbonated.  That's the wonderful thing about science.
>So much of it seems so bloody counterintuitive...

Well for my mind, there are two things to be said:
        Firstly, The more headspace there is, the more CO2 that can build
up in the headspace.  (And to take it further, an over-carbonated bottle
with a large headspace will go *GRENADE STYLE*, whereas an overcarbonated
bottle with *NO HEADSPACE* will just go "clink" and spill out).
        But secondly and more importantly (talking from no physics
background), for a given CO2 pressure in the headspace, there is an
*equilibrium* concentration of CO2 in the beer.  SO, when you release the
pressure instantly (open it!), the  pressure in a large head space (which
has presumably produced a high *equilibrium* concentration of CO2 in the
beer), this produces a sizable *differential* between the current conc. and
the new equilibrium conc. thus causing the excess dissolved CO2 to come
with a rush (over-carbonation?!).  On the other hand, if there's no head
space, there's no significant equilibrium to start with.  And so no
significant differential to force CO2 out of solution.

I tried,
                                Chris.
                 	       	           	       	       	   ___________
Chris Pittock 06)2495099        	 |\___/\___           / Geez, is  \
pittock at rsbs0.anu.edu.au        	 |       o \         /\that rain? /
PO Box 475 Canberra City        	 |          --------   \_________/
ACT 2601  Australia.            	 | _________/
                                	 |/


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Date: Thu, 30 Jun 1994 09:16:31 +22305931 (EDT)
From: gam at beluga.must.com (Guy Mason)
Subject: yabpq - Yet Another BrewPub Question

Greetings Fellow Brewers,

I know, I know but I need the info.  Are there ANY brewpubs in CT?
Also since I am brewing in the dark void (aka all alone), I would 
appreciate any HomeBrew Clubs info my fellow CT brewers may have.
Private email welcome, flames to bgates at microsoft.com...

TIA
                                _ _ 
                                O O
/---------------------------uuu--U--uuu---------------------------\
|   Guy Mason                                           Cognito   |
|   MUST Software International                          ergo     |
|   E-mail : gam at must.com                                brew     |
\-----------------------------------------------------------------/

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Date: Thu, 30 Jun 1994 08:55:45 -0500 (CDT)
From: cush at msc.edu
Subject: bottle filling and carbonation

Ok, ordinarily I would think that the level of fill in the bottle should
have nothing/zip/ziltch to do with the amount of carbonation.  The reason
being (and already stated here) that the partial pressure of CO2 in the 
headspace is strictly a function of temperature and total amount of CO2
in the system.  However, there seems to be a hue and cry (sp?) that says
empirical evidence shows overfilled bottles to be less carbonated, and 
underfilled bottles to be more carbonated. (which seems at best counter-
intuitive).

One conjecture:  could the effect being observed not be a result of CO2,
but rather an effect of the air left in the headspace of the bottle?
possibilities that come to mind:

1) In an underfilled bottle, N2 and O2 dissolve into the beer.  The greater
the headspace, the more gasses dissolved, and the higher the 
apparent 'carbonation' (though I suspect the volumes of gas are too low for
this...)

2) Oxidation due to O2 left in the headspace produces a larger volume
of some gas (CO2?)  I do not know the stoichiometry of the reaction(s).
George Fix: any thoughts?

Just a couple thoughts...
- -- 
	> Cushing Hamlen, Client Services	|	cush at msc.edu
	> Minnesota Supercomputer Center, Inc.	|	612/337-3505

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Date: Thu, 30 Jun 1994 08:54:37 -0500 (CDT)
From: gellym at aviion.persoft.com (brewing chemist Mitch)
Subject: Great Taste of the Midwest sellout !!

Thanks to all of you that purchased tickets for the eighth annual Great Taste
of the Midwest, we have yet another sellout. With 37 breweries and close to
100 beers, it should be another fine event. 

Please, no more email or calls. we are truly sold out. 

ObRequest: Where can I find *French* oak chips ? (other than France, thanks)

Cheers,

Mitch

- -- 
|                       - Mitch Gelly -                        | Zack Norman |
|  software QA specialist, systems administrator, zymurgist,   |     is      |
| AHA/HWBTA beer judge, & president of the Madison Homebrewers |  Sammy in   |
|      - gellym at aviion.persoft.com - gelly at persoft.com -       | Chief Zabu  |

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Date: Thu, 30 Jun 1994 10:10:51 -0400
From: sam at gobi.toolsmiths.on.ca (Sean MacLennan)
Subject: Red Dog and Alt

I tried my first Red Dog beer last night. It is supposedly an Alt beer.
There has been alot of talk about Alt beers recently but no description
of the style. I can't believe that a beer popular in Germany can be so
bland! Therefore I am interested in any information anyone has about Alt
beers.

	Sean MacLennan
	sam at toolsmiths.on.ca
	There is no bad beer, only better!

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End of HOMEBREW Digest #1464, 07/01/94